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Amit_S
12-08-2006, 07:40 AM
Hye!
I've just started doing animation. I'm starting with the basics. At first I was really confused on how to start. Bouncing balls or bipeds? This or that? At this point I've just decided to conc on learning the basic fundamentals.

I've started with a basic walk cycle.
I used the Ani Survival Kit for this. My 1st few walk cycles seemed very odd- too much weight on the down position , sometimes just no feeling of weight or too cartoony etc. For this particular cycle I also used references from Muybridge. I did not go in for any character- its a plain Vanilla Walk Cycle. I've also tried making this as subtle as possible- not too cartoony.

*During the contact poses Richard Williams tells you to keep the front leg straight to show theres not much weight on it. When I tried it it looked too odd. I looked at Muybridge and there was always a slight bend in the leg.
*During the Pass position and Extreme Up- I did not take my character as up as shown by Williams- cause again it looked to odd. In Muybridge theres really not too much up and down.

Heres my video. It can be downloaded or seen directly. If downloaded-it can also be seen using Quicktime. Also I would like to know- what to do next? I'm going in for a longer walk cycle.

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122062

I would really appreciate it if all the guys here give me some critiques.
Want to thank everyone who reads and/or posts in this post. Thanks all!

josephjacir
12-08-2006, 01:00 PM
Two big things to start: up and down, and acceleration and deceleration. I can see you tocuhed upon the up and down, but it needs to be much, much, much more pronounced. Try doing it an amount that you would consider to be far too much - and if you're right, at least you can reconcile it with the far too little that is there now. The other thing is that the down should cause the body to move forward quite fast, whereas the body moves forward slowly during the up.

Try those two things out for now, and get back to us! They should open the doors to a lot of other subtleties you can add to your walk. Happy animating.

Amit_S
12-08-2006, 05:23 PM
Hye Joseph

Thnx for replying.

O.K.-

Here are the things I decided to change, which were not present in clip1:
1.During the Conatct position the weight should be more on the hind leg.
2.During the down position- the torso kind of bends forward.
3.As you suggested more up and down.
4.Again as u suggested- the going down part should be faster than going up.

Heres my 2nd attempt:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122141
I did all that. But then - I think what I've just done is worse than my 1st attempt. I really cant put my foot down on why its like that. It just doesnt feel right- even though I've followed all the technical details. Whereas in my 1st attempt I went for a lot of subtelty (not much up and down etc) and it looks better.

So where am I screwing up?

josephjacir
12-08-2006, 11:13 PM
Good, good. I think now, at least, your problems are problems of performance, which is a step up. I might suggest making the steps farther apart - you will find it makes it feel less awkward going down into the contacts - right now the deceleration seems a little awkward just because his steps are so close together. After a little tweaking you might loosen up the spine - secondary motion, make the head react to the steps. By the way, if the feet have to move farther apart, you will see why the down is essential - the legs will not be long enough to keep him at the same height and stretch to the contact position.

Amit_S
12-09-2006, 03:59 PM
Hey again Joseph:)

I followed your advice and this is what I have this time:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122304

Just 1 question: You say something about tweaking his spine. I am tweaking it. When he puts a leg forward -that hip is forward and the upper torso is rotated in the other direction.
I guess it'll be more apparent in a front view. Should I also exagerrate this?

Also- my progess sucks:sad:
It just doesnt seem natural . There are a lot of guys here- newbies like me- who are posting better stuff. What am I doing wrong here?
This is what I did different this time:

1.Contact pose: On this pose the weight is supposed to be on the hind leg. So what I used to do was keep the hip centered around the hind leg. But now I've kept the hip centered around the mid-point of both the legs.
To show the weight is on the hind leg- I've bent that leg. I havent raisen that leg too much on its ball.
The front leg: I've exagerrated the heel raise and it doesnt quite touch the ground- to show there is no weght on this.
2.Stride Length: As you recommended - the legs are more apart now.

3.Down Position: During this the torso now bends forward to accentuate the weight on the front leg.

4.Extreme Up: Richard Williams describes walking as falling forward and catching yourself just in time. So in the extreme up I've made the torso lean back- so further stress the falling down part.

5.Speed: The falling down part is fast. When he comes up its a little slow.

6. I also added extra keys for the feet. When he is just about to keep his front foot down. Also when he pushes off with his hind leg.

blurgh
12-09-2006, 05:17 PM
hey Amit !
greetings from my struggling with aniamtion thread :p

It looking cool man! aniamting a moving walk is my next thing to try... *gulp*
can you get a playblast from the front as well.... it looks to me like your hips just rotate side to side.. I think a bit of up and down might loosen this goose up ! anyway post another view if you can !

keep it up!

-Darken

blurgh
12-09-2006, 05:18 PM
P.S sorry!, you could try something liek the lowman rig, where you can turn section of the model off... so you can just concetrate on the lower areas and are not distracted by upper body malarky!

-Darken

Amit_S
12-10-2006, 09:29 AM
Hey Darken-R

Just uploaded some more views. Its the same cycle though:

Front View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122495

Perspective View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122496

I just went through your walk cycle again- and mine too.
Its like mine is odd- dont know what i'm doing wrong here.
Is the going down part a little too fast? Anything else?

About the rig- I just got Moon. Its based on the AM rig I think.

blurgh
12-10-2006, 10:37 AM
hmm there deffinatly something funky going in in there. Unfortunatly my animation eye is not what it should be ;P.

I would suggest making sure your hips are rotating side to side (get that weight shift in there).
Also it feels liek the passing position lingers too long. This could be a timing issue or mebe youve raised the character up a little too much. :/

try looking at weight shift, hopefully will add a little more life to it

cheers

-Darken

josephjacir
12-10-2006, 08:28 PM
Looking better. Now, I suggest you think about leading - this determines what is causing and what is affected by secondary motion. That is, motions will originate because of the contracting of certain muscles, and the parts of the body that are less involved in those motions will follow the actions of those that cause it. Motions will ripple through the body (don't go tooooo crazy with this, Richard Williams talks about over-animating and this is the main source of it. I assume you have his Survival Kit?).

Case in point, the arms are really stiff- it looks like you FK animated them but only by rotating at the shoulders. Walk around a little and pay attention to what happens to your elbows. This should give you a sense of what needs to happen with the spine as well (that's the tweaking I meant). I believe that rig has a spline IK spine? In any case, he maintains a rigid back throughout, with shoulders back and midsection arched and protruded. Think about contrasting that pose for the spine with the opposite (more curved down, shoulders forward and stomach bent), and where each should go.

Right now the motion doesn't seem to originate anywhere, so what should be a walk looks like a rather stiff stomp to me. When you stomp, feel where your body tenses up - his fists are balled up as well. Try offsetting the keys of the back or the feet. Also, try to continue the motion from the walk into the extremities, especially the rotation of the head.

Amit_S
12-11-2006, 07:31 AM
Hye again Joseph

1st of all- heres the new walk cycle I did.
but i did this before I read your last comment.

Side View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122746

Front View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122747

Pers view:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:122749

Here is what i did different this time:
1.I deliberately went for a more cartoony walk- rather than try and make it look 'real'.
Hence the exagerrated arm swings, pelvic/hip tilts from side-to-side, up and down etc.
2.Contact position/ Back Foot: The weight is generally supposed to be on the back foot during Conatct position. I used to not arch it too much. And keep the body centred around the hind leg.
Then I read in the Survival Kit that its the up and down motion which gives weight to the body. So rather than concentrating on putting the weight on the back foot, I've made the contact position to be something of a transition point which occurs just before the weight is put on the front leg.
3.Angle of the body: During the Contact pos, Down pose, - I've rotated the upper body forward since the weight is going down at that point.
Pass pose: Kept the body rotated fairly straight to show that its just come up. And because the extreme up comes directly after this.
Extreme Up pose:Rotated the body forward again cause the body is going down after this pose.

Amit_S
12-11-2006, 07:44 AM
And now:

Leading: Hmm... I'll just have to walk around a lot and check it out.
I noticed 1 thing about the last walk cycles I made: I do rotate the torso but not enough. As compared to the arm swing the torso should rotate more. In fact its the Shoulder which leads the arm to swing, correct? i'll concentrate on this.
Back: Again I'll just have to check out a lot more references for this. I understand what you are saying but dont quite know how to apply this.
Maybe his torso can bend when he goes down?
Stomp:Maybe less rotation of the upper body fwd?

i'll get to work ASAP.

Thnx for all these critiques- I really appreciate this.





Looking better. Now, I suggest you think about leading - this determines what is causing and what is affected by secondary motion. That is, motions will originate because of the contracting of certain muscles, and the parts of the body that are less involved in those motions will follow the actions of those that cause it. Motions will ripple through the body (don't go tooooo crazy with this, Richard Williams talks about over-animating and this is the main source of it. I assume you have his Survival Kit?).

Case in point, the arms are really stiff- it looks like you FK animated them but only by rotating at the shoulders. Walk around a little and pay attention to what happens to your elbows. This should give you a sense of what needs to happen with the spine as well (that's the tweaking I meant). I believe that rig has a spline IK spine? In any case, he maintains a rigid back throughout, with shoulders back and midsection arched and protruded. Think about contrasting that pose for the spine with the opposite (more curved down, shoulders forward and stomach bent), and where each should go.

Right now the motion doesn't seem to originate anywhere, so what should be a walk looks like a rather stiff stomp to me. When you stomp, feel where your body tenses up - his fists are balled up as well. Try offsetting the keys of the back or the feet. Also, try to continue the motion from the walk into the extremities, especially the rotation of the head.

NikLG
12-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Hello there. Thought I'd try and give a few pointers....

It seems to me that the cycle isn't fluid enough. He appears to be moving from one
position to the next, and pausing at the end of each ( in a sort of stuttering motion ). That
doesn't help...
It's got far too exagerated, and due to the above looks weird.
The keys are probably OK, so ( and this may sound drastic.. ) I would drop everything but the extremes and the the key inbetweens ( foot plants and cross-overs ).
If you do that then try and keep your eye on where his weight is / should be when
you re-animate it. Currently is that his weight isn't
shifting in a believable manner. It's going from left to right in a linear fashion. If you were to try that in real life you'd fall over when you pick your leg up.
His weight should be over his landed foot until he is about to plant his leading foot ( or atleast until after the cross over point, it depends on how bouncy or stompy you want the wwlak to be ).
Also his arm movement should be behind his leg movement. If his foot is landing on frame 12 ( for example ) his leading arm won't be fully forward till a few frames after that.

Oh, and don't dismiss Richard Williams theories on animation so lightly like this :-

During the contact poses Richard Williams tells you to keep the front leg straight to show theres not much weight on it. When I tried it it looked too odd

..he does have a LOT of experience you know....I was lucky enough to work on 'The Thief and the Cobbler' and see him work first hand...he knows what he's talking about...

Anyway, I hope that all helps..I don't want to sound lecturey and harsh, just trying to pass on some exp. and tips...

Nik

Amit_S
12-13-2006, 05:13 AM
Hello Nik-
thanks for ur critiques

1st of all about Richard Williams- hell no! i wasnt trying to put him down!
He is a great animator- I dont think I'll be wrong if I say hes a milestone in himself.
I havent seen 'The Thief and the Cobbler' . I did come across that name a few times in animation forums but I dont recall any release/video for it. I'll google it later......

___________________________

About all the critiques- thnx again to Joseph, Nik ,Darken and Weakchild.
I'm trying to follow all the suggestions -but I dont know........I made a lot of different attempts -but each one looked worse than the next. If it looks good-then it looks way to subtle, no up/down etc. When I tried to follow all the principles- it looks all stompy, stop wlk jittery stuff. I need to find balance.
I have the Gnomon DVD now.
I'll posts something as soon as I feel I have something good.

blurgh
12-13-2006, 11:45 AM
ok mate, keep it up !

-Darken

Amit_S
12-13-2006, 04:40 PM
1st of all heres something which weakchild PMed me:

"about your walk cycle, it seems to me that the first attempts are a lot smoother but the recent ones has the correct positions a walk should have, it might be a timing issue, because now your walk seems very robotic..and everything is hitting at the same time, like the head bobs at the same time as he takes a step..there should be a delay to make the motion less mechanical....

Also it depends on what you want to convey on your walk cycle that determines the exaggeration of your walk...like this one that I did more than a year ago (I probably would do alot better now than this crap :) ) I wanted him to have more attitude:

http://www.weakchild.com/media/animtests/GeneriWalk.mov

keep going man, you'd doing good...just need to work on your timing...still kinda feels like its in slow motion.

--Albert
WEAKchild.com (http://www.weakchild.com/)

Amit_S
12-13-2006, 05:06 PM
ok mate, keep it up !

-Darken

Thnx man!
_________________________________________________________________


Ok- I'm trying to follow the Gnomon Ani DVD step-by-step. I'm stuck at this point where the tutor (Cameron Hood)) instructs you in the angle of the torso in various parts of the cycle.
I'm getting little confused in this part.
During the Extreme Up- how exactly is the upper body bent?
Do u bend from your hip joint keeping your torso stiff and straight?
Or do u actually bend from the abs/lower back portion?

I have this video here. plz look at the way the torso is bent during the extreme down and the extreme up position. Is that right? If not , can someone plz include an image showing how the torso should be bent?

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:123251

(Of course, apart from the torso you might also find a lot of other mistakes like the angle of the legs, hip height etc.....but I'm trying to follow the dvd as closely as possible- at this point the tutor most probably has a reason why he wants the legs/feet in that angle etc....so i really dont want to change that right now except the torso)

thnx

Amit_S
12-15-2006, 05:37 AM
no replies:sad:
Is it that bad?
Come on guys- just tell me how the body bends- I'm really getting confused in this part.

Amit_S
12-15-2006, 05:40 AM
OK - I do have something from YasHussain:thumbsup:

This is what he PMed me:

Hey Amit, I was taking a look at your progress on your walk cycle and its looking pretty good, but you dont have any counter action going on. Everything seems to happen at the same time, in reality this is not so. As the legs are going back you can have his upper torso come forward or his arms can come forward. The idea with walks is that there are no limits, it depends on what kinda look you want to go, if something looks odd but works then it is a creative walk. Also try breaking the elbow joint when the arm goes forward.

Well the lower back does not really bend much, it all depends on what kind of walk you are going for. When I do walks I dont really have any bend in the torso, I have a twist from the upper torso and the shoulders.

blurgh
12-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Hey Amit,

Yas Hussain is defiantly right !,
i think when cameron hood is talking about angling th torso he may be refering to like the left hip bieng up when the left leg is passing the right (the planted one), and therefore u will rotate the upper body a little the opposite way or in theory your character would fall over.

I think the top of page 140 of the survival kit probably explains what I mean (weightshift)

Amrit-Derhgawen
12-17-2006, 07:12 AM
Hi there!

Today, I saw your email floating around in my mailbox (haaah those stinky spammers!>o<). Sorry for the late reply... Yes, I would definitely try to help you with your walk cycles. You've started out well....Keep working....

I always treat my every frame like a single drawing, and I try to work on everything given in that frame. It helps me a lot to plan and organize my scene.

Okay, here's what you can do to improve your walk cycle. Ohh! And I'm really sorry for my horrible drawings! Hope this helps....

Down position
http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/dwnpos_amit.jpg

Passing position
http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/passpos_amit.jpg

Up position
http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/upPos_amit.jpg

Good luck for the future!
-A

Amit_S
12-25-2006, 06:24 AM
Okay! I'M BACK!!

Its been a week now. Couldnt do anything cause my PC was shot- virus problems. Had to format my HDD.

This is what I did today:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:125623

I've followed Amrits advice and rearranged all the foot positions.
Thnx man:thumbsup:

Also I've attempted a little on moving his hands. His hands and his head are far from perfect- the actual positions, overlap etc.
HEAD: Dont know if its my fault or theres a limit on this Package rig- but I really cant move his head back and forward as I wanted to. So in the down positon- his head really shoots down.

Now I'm going to start working on the overlap of the torso and his legs. Right now they all hit the same position at the same time. I want to delay some torso movements.

blurgh
12-25-2006, 07:48 PM
well dude! looks much much better now !

with the head, have you actually got a cotnrol for it. I think with package man you have to turn them all on?

also it could be a hypergraph problem?


-Darken

Amit_S
12-26-2006, 04:04 AM
well dude! looks much much better now !

with the head, have you actually got a cotnrol for it. I think with package man you have to turn them all on?

also it could be a hypergraph problem?


-Darken

Hye again:)

There is only a rotate control for the head. The torso and head is mostly IK. When the body moves so does the head. So if I dont want the head to bob like that then I have to adjust the spine which messes up the angles in the different poses.
But I know there must be something I can do for it...I just havent found it yet.

SirRon
01-01-2007, 09:41 PM
Hey Amit_S, I just noticed you had a question about using the pjHogan rig at the Animation Lounge (http://www.animationlounge.com/index.php?topic=233.0) forums.

Are you still having problems with it? I think I know why.


Hye! My 1st post here.
I'm a kind of an animation newbie. I've been doing modeling mostly.

About pjlHogan.v2- its just not working at all:(
Esp the joints part. Whenever I animate -the joint spheres, the neck and the teeth do not move with the main model. They get left behind.

This is my animation procedur(which works well for Packageman and IKJoe). I use Maya 7. I keep Auto-Key off.
I set up my model in its 1st pose. I drag select the entire model.
Then I open the script editor. Then drag the 'select' script from the script editor to the shelf bar and create a button for selecting the model. Then I move the model to is second pose and simply hit the newly made select button and hit 'S'. Now when I move the time slider I see the model move from pose 1 to pose 2. At least in IKJoe and Packageman it does.
But now that I'm trying the same with Hogan the joint spheres, neck, teeth get left behind.

I can see that no one else has posted anything remotely similar- so obviously I'm doing something wrong. So where am I going wrong?


It sounds like you're selecting either the joints or the geometry, or both. The ones you want to select are all the NURBS controller curves, not the geometry or joints. What I do is shift-click on all the controllers, reselect the FK/IK switch to go to FK, shift-click on the FK controls, Create>Sets>Quick Select Set. Then make a mel button for that selection set, makes it very easy to select all the controls, even the ones you don't see.

Hope that helps.

Amit_S
01-02-2007, 12:31 PM
Hey Ron
Happy New Year!

Thnx for the reply. After that I didnt use Hoagn. Cant even test it right now cause I dont have it. Lost it when I had to format my HDD.

Anyways at least now I know what to do when I do use it. Thnx again.

Amit_S
01-02-2007, 12:35 PM
Hello again Ron.
By the way -ur animated Avatar -its cool. a bit exagerrated but I can use it as a ref.

mclen
01-02-2007, 04:58 PM
Hey,

I am new in Character Animation, and was goin through your thread and all your clips in vimeo..... Gooood Impruvements Dude.

Any Hints to this newbee.....me.....

any one reply'g will be appriciated....

Mclen
Bangalore

Amit_S
01-02-2007, 05:21 PM
Hye!

All those walk cycles and attempts at acting were getting too difficult for me. It wasn’t the actual doing but …all those little details. I guess I was trying to jump before I could crawl properly.

I’ve decided to set my targets a little lower for a while and concentrate maybe on steps, jumps, maybe boxes etc.



I just did a Side Step with Moom. I downloaded this rig from highend3d.com
A big thnx to Ramtin Ahmadi.
(by the way this is the latest version- it has an option of seemingly unlimited stretch -not found in the older version.)
Its at 24fps.


I currently see 2 faults:

The poses are too symmetrical.
The feet move too fast.


Here are the videos:
1.Front View:


http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127274


2.Persp View:


http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127275

Amit_S
01-02-2007, 05:26 PM
Oh! And by the way

HAPPY NEW YEAR! to everyone.



•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` * ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
........|___|...
........|000|...TIME IS FLYING..
........|000|...2006 WAS A GOOD YEAR FOR US..
........|000|... LETS HOPE THE SAME ABOUT 2007..
........|000|... LETS CHEER THE ARRIVAL OF NEW YEAR..
........ \00/....
......... \0/..... CHEERS.....
..........||...... HAPPY NEW YEAR....
..........||......WISH THIS YEAR WILL BRING LOTS OF SMILES ON UR
..........||......CUTE FACES...
........_||_....
¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ .¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` * ¸.•´¸.•*´¨]


__000000____0000000____0000000____000000000
_00000000__000000000__000000000___00_____00
_00____00__00_____00__00_____00_______ 00
______00___00_____00__00_____00______ 00
_____00____00_____00__00_____00_____00
____00_____00_____00__00_____00____00
___00______00_____00__00_____00____00
_00000000__000000000__000000000____00
0000000000__0000000____0000000_____

blurgh
01-02-2007, 07:23 PM
Hey man,

Happy new year to you too!

I thought your side step was fine. while nothing technically wrong with it, it could do with some perzaz!

To my mind you have a little anticipation in there already, but id boost that by like x10 so that he leans to his right that much more before moving his leg

Then perhaps he should almost hop onto his other leg, which would breathe some life into the whole movement (and hopefully reduce that dirty symmetry stuff !

i dont think that the feet move to fast persay... i just think they ned a lil more 'interesting movement... so i'd at least peel the heel a bit

so the foot is this kind of shape when it lifts up : (a bit more natural tho!)
/
__/

and then it can do some really nice followthru/overlap as it lands


Also if you wanted to go further into it.. you culd really push the anticipation... and have the foot lift up and tight to his other leg (hold for antipation) then stretch out to a firther position for the side step...

I hope that makes some kind of sense! (ive had too much coffe)

Keep it up !
-Darken

SirRon
01-02-2007, 07:23 PM
You can still download pjHogan from Animation Lounge, there's a link.

As for your side step animation, the main issue I see is that it feels linear. Try holding the anticipation. Don't forget to exaggerate too :) Kind of like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/Animation%20Work/blast4.gif

Don't rely too much on my running avatar as reference, I can do better than that now :D

edit: wow Darken, we both posted at the same time!

blurgh
01-02-2007, 07:23 PM
yeah ! sir Rons is more liek what im talking about !

-Darken

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 11:00 AM
Hey Darken.

Thnx for the critique.

I kindda followed what you said and have made a Side Hop.

This has a lot more anticipation and a hop.



But about what you said:

“and have the foot lift up and tight to his other leg (hold for antipation)”

What do you mean by ‘tight’?

You mean have the front leg tight and straight? I tried that- but it was just too unnatural. Felt much better when I bent that leg.


________________________________________________________________________--
Hey Ron.

Wow! A gif! Cool man. Thnx.

I like your version. It has a lot more cartoony feel which is what I was trying to do.

About the run cycle avatar- hmm…I’ll start checking your thread now.

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 11:04 AM
About what I’m trying to do:

At this point my main focus is on trying to learn body mechanics. Which part to move when….what starts the animation: feet or the hips, the shoulders or the arms etc.

Hence the half body hops and steps.



Here is a Side Hop:


http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127471 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127471)

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 11:22 AM
Hey Lennon

Didn’t see your post before.

Thnx for your comments.

As far as tips:
I wasted a lot of time searching for tips and stuff. I would recommend just jumping into it. Start with animation boxes or bipeds- but do something. At the beginning forget about appeal, acting etc- but just concentrate on getting body mechanics correctly.


I would recommend going through all the posts in my thread. If u notice- whenever I do something wrong and then correct it- I not only post the video but write what I’ve changed about the latest video. That’s so that it can be a learning experience for all newbies. I’m a newbie too- so I can kindda understand the frustration.



Apart from this I would recommend going through the all posts of :



*jariullah- hes a newbie too- and his thread shows his progress

*weakchild newwst thread. He's preparing for AM.
*Darken-R 's walk cycle thread
*tanghuiyung walk cycle
*michelbidart's super hero action scene thread
*Sirron's stranded in desert/need water thread (hes even got story-boards here)

These are the ones I'm now following right now. My main reason is to learn body mechanics.
If you want acting stuff- try Willy wonka's acting clip thread from Airdogg01, Thats love from Mendes etc. But I wouldnt recommend them right now. You might get bogged down with too much info.

Also go to cgtantra.com and look for posts by Amrit Derhwagen, d_jnaneswar.

So u live in B'lore, eh?
By the way- are you trying to do this by yourself or have u joined any classes.
d_jnaneswar was talking about opening some classes and his work is really cool.
Also I know another guy who's opening his own classes -he used to work in Crest.

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE=SirRon]
As for your side step animation, the main issue I see is that it feels linear. Try holding the anticipation.

[QUOTE]

What do you mean by 'Linear'?:shrug:

SirRon
01-03-2007, 05:06 PM
When I say linear I'm saying the movement is evenly spaced over time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/Linear.gif

Here's a tutorial that talks a lot more in depth. LINK (http://www.keithlango.com/wordpress/?page_id=281)

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 05:35 PM
This is a front jump video:

Side View:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127514





Perspective View:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127523



How can I improve this? I guess 1 way is to add more ‘perzaz' as Darken says. But how?

Amit_S
01-03-2007, 05:39 PM
When I say linear I'm saying the movement is evenly spaced over time.


Here's a tutorial that talks a lot more in depth. LINK (http://www.keithlango.com/wordpress/?page_id=281)

I understand it now.
Thnx:)

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 12:56 PM
Heres an update on the Front Jump:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127694

Everything in this has been exaggerated- the height of the jump, anticipation etc.

The only problem I'm having is with the landing. It seems to be technically incorrect.
Maybe the landing position of the feet or the follow through of the hips.

blurgh
01-04-2007, 03:53 PM
hey amrit,
sorry couldnt reply faster been busy animating my self!

um by 'tight' i mean....

If you look at sir rons lil vid of a side step, you see how the characters left foot lifts up with some anticipation on it, i meant liek that but id bring the leg across the front of the character, a very exaggerated way of doing it.

I looked at you jump,
nice ! *thumbs up* i dont think theres much hugely wrong with the landing... it needs to be made a little heavy, so maybe the decent should be a little faster?

If you were working with the rest of the body you could make him look off balance, but as your not, mebe you could at a bit of a jerk to the last little but where he gets back onto balance?

-Darken

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 04:09 PM
Hey Darken
Thnx for the thumbs up man!
OK- now I do understand what you mean by tight. Actually that was one of the few things I tried to do by myself (I mean my own body) but couldnt. Maybe I'll try it again later.

Landing: Hmm..More Heaviness needed, eh?
OK. Thnx again.
I'll try that thing now.
I'm also posting some videos now but remember I hadnt read your comment before I made what I just did.

And yes- 1 last thing....I really appreciate you, Ron, Amrit, Joseph, Nik, Weakchild, yashussain - everyone who is posting or has posted in this thread or PMed me. I understand that you guys are busy with you own stuff. Even then you are taking the tme out to check out my videos and drop a comment. Thnx a bunch!
The only reason I'm not posting in your thread is cause at my level I really dont have anything to tell you. I'll most probably end up giving you the wrong advice.
So thnx:thumbsup:

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 04:13 PM
I made this video before i read Darkens critique of my landing.


Heres an update on my Front Jump:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:127721

I previously mentioned that something about the landing was bothering me.
In the 1st 2 attempts the leg which is just hangng back lands in the front of the foot already planted.
In this updated video the leg which is hanging back lands just behind the already planted foot.

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 04:18 PM
Here's another mistake I discovered.

I kept jumping around and realised there are 2 types of jumps:
1.Long jump- going for maximum length
2.High jump: max vertical height

I've made what can be called a high jump.
But I totally messed up on the landing part. When you do a high jump -as soon as you reach top height you drop down directly.
Like this:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/FrontJumpWhatItIsSupposedToBe.jpg




But all this while I kept doing it wrongly.
This is what I've been doing:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/FrontJumpWhatItIs.jpg

Amrit-Derhgawen
01-04-2007, 04:41 PM
hey amrit,
sorry couldnt reply faster been busy animating my self!
-Darken

Ahem! My name is Amrit...he is Amit! hehheh.....Never mind!!

Hi there Amit!

Happy new year! I saw your jump animation. You're really improving! Keep it up.....

http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/help_amit2.jpg

You gotta work hard on your arcs and spacings. When you're animating in CG, first ask yourself...."how will I animate this in 2d?" This really helps to think, plan and execute correctly and efficiently.
Yesterday I was just doodling on plastic animation paper. Its a single leg jump, but it may help you! Check it out on http://amritd.blogspot.com/2007/01/pap-fun.html

Keep animating, and have fun!!:D
-A

blurgh
01-04-2007, 05:42 PM
ltrheh, well now i feel all embarresed !

sorry for the mix up :p

thats some excellent critique from 'amrit' there


P.S im enjoying this thread, im learning loads!

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 08:16 PM
ltrheh, well now i feel all embarresed !

sorry for the mix up :p

thats some excellent critique from 'amrit' there


P.S im enjoying this thread, im learning loads!

Chill Darken
People might confuse 'Amit' and 'Amrit'. But no one is going to get confused with the quality of my work v/s his. :sad:

SirRon
01-04-2007, 08:18 PM
Fantastic crit Amrit.... I think that rhymed.

How were you able to get his Vimeo clip to quicktime? I tried VideoDownloader but couldn't get the video out.

I very much agree with what Amrit said. Lifting the leg in the beginning, arc of jump, and even movement. Common mistakes Amit so don't feel bad. We've all have probably done it, I know I did.
When you're animating in CG, first ask yourself...."how will I animate this in 2d?" This really helps to think, plan and execute correctly and efficiently.
Sounds like something Keith Lango would say ;) Are you're doing his Animation Personal Trainer?

I also see you improving Amit, keep it up :thumbsup:

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 08:28 PM
Wow man!
Thnx Amrit!
Your point was a little confusing at 1st. So i opened my Maya file and simply put a sphere in the hip section -every time I had set a key for the hips.

And this is what I got:
(03FrontJumpSideViewMotionTracker.jpg)

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/03FrontJumpSideViewMotionTracker.jpg

You are absolutely right about the arcs.

and believe me- I have started using my notebook a lot. Deciding where to put keys, what angle, pose etc etc.


I do have 2 questions:
1.You write DELAY- I'm assuming u want me to hold the frame where the toes are just about to leave ground but are still in contact with the ground...correct?
2."TAKE IT OFF THE GROUND": So do you want me to take the feet off the ground while keeping the hips where they are in the image u've posted?
Cause from what I see in the Survival Kit- the hips are way up and the foot/feet are stretched while remaining in contact with the ground. This is what I've done.

And yes- thnx for the video.
How can I download it? If you can give me a link I can upload it on vimeo and post it here
like my other videos- under ur credit of course.

Once again man- thnx a lot. This did clear up some really heavy stuff.

Amit_S
01-04-2007, 08:38 PM
Fantastic crit Amrit.... I think that rhymed.

How were you able to get his Vimeo clip to quicktime? I tried VideoDownloader but couldn't get the video out.

I very much agree with what Amrit said. Lifting the leg in the beginning, arc of jump, and even movement. Common mistakes Amit so don't feel bad. We've all have probably done it, I know I did.

Sounds like something Keith Lango would say ;) Are you're doing his Animation Personal Trainer?

I also see you improving Amit, keep it up :thumbsup:

Thnx for the comments Ron!

About Vimeo- hmm...from what I've seen you just download the video directly.
When you click on the link, the page which opens up has a fash video which can be played online directly. And just below that there is a bar with various options:
DELETE, EMBED, DOWNLOAD, FLICKR, REPLACE.
You have to click on DOWNLOAD. This will give you 2 options: AVI and FLASH.
Right click and save the Avi file.
And then it can be opened using quicktime directly- without using any special codecs.
I just tried it before typing this and it worked.

about Amrit- from what I've read he's a suscriber to keith Lango's VTS program.

And to think of it- I was reading Keith Langos article on arcs yesterday and then today i screw it up :(

blurgh
01-04-2007, 10:30 PM
yeah dont worry extremely common mistake... to be honest after looking at this i quite fancy havign a go at a jump animation! :D


Amrit are you doing the keith lango personal trainer? if so how great is it ? I was considering it as a less time intensive alternative to AM after i graduate from Uni.


-Darken

SirRon
01-05-2007, 02:19 AM
I know Amrit subscribes to the VTS, I do too, we talked about it at the CGChar (http://www.cgchar-animation.com/) forum.

I don't see those options in Vimeo, all I see are Embed and Flag. So I can't save it. :shrug:

Maybe this might help answer those questions Amit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/jumpcrit.gif

The landing and recovery isn't that great so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. :)

Amrit-Derhgawen
01-05-2007, 07:39 AM
ltrheh, well now i feel all embarresed !
sorry for the mix up :p
thats some excellent critique from 'amrit' there
P.S im enjoying this thread, im learning loads!

Darken-R: Thats okay man! Cheers!


Fantastic crit Amrit.... I think that rhymed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amrit-Derhgawen
When you're animating in CG, first ask yourself....&quot;how will I animate this in 2d?&quot; This really helps to think, plan and execute correctly and efficiently.


Sounds like something Keith Lango would say ;) Are you're doing his Animation Personal Trainer?

I also see you improving Amit, keep it up :thumbsup:
Hi Ronan! I'm not yet doing Keith's APT program, but I'm planning to join it pretty soon! Yes, I'm in his VTS prgram and right now I'm getting everything that I want. I've learned almost everything from Keith Lango, so I may sound like him sometimes(ahem!) heheh....But I wish that someday I'll be able to animate like him...its a dream! He not only knows animation, he knows how to teach it! His three (FREE) articles/tutorials helped me a lot......1)Cartoon Snappy Motion...2)Breakdowns Can be Such a drag....3) Do Me a Favor
I've saved these articles on my computer, and they help me a lot in my animations!

How were you able to get his Vimeo clip to quicktime? I tried VideoDownloader but couldn't get the video out.
Its easy to download Vimeo clips. You'll see a download option at the bottom. Click it and save the avi version. And QuickTime can play AVI! So, open that AVI file from QT....done!!

Wow man!
Thnx Amrit!
Your point was a little confusing at 1st. So i opened my Maya file and simply put a sphere in the hip section -every time I had set a key for the hips. You are absolutely right about the arcs.
and believe me- I have started using my notebook a lot. Deciding where to put keys, what angle, pose etc etc.

Here's one handy dandy tip for ya! Take a dry-erase marker (erasable marker) and then select your object and in Maya, press &quot;w&quot; key to activate the translation tool, because it brings up a little milti axis icon with a little box in the center of it. This is an easy way to see the exact center of hips on any given frame. Then plot a dotted line on your monitor with your trusty dry-earase marker. That way you can easily work on your arcs!! I learned this tip from Shawn Kelly's Animation Mentor tips and tricks.... (WARNING!: Do NOT use a Permanent marker (sharpie)...it WILL damage your screen permanently and do not use a dry-erase marker on an LCD screen, it could damage it.)

I do have 2 questions:
1.You write DELAY- I'm assuming u want me to hold the frame where the toes are just about to leave ground but are still in contact with the ground...correct?
2.&quot;TAKE IT OFF THE GROUND&quot;: So do you want me to take the feet off the ground while keeping the hips where they are in the image u've posted?
Cause from what I see in the Survival Kit- the hips are way up and the foot/feet are stretched while remaining in contact with the ground. This is what I've done.

1)You don't have to hold any frame anywhere. You just have to hold (or delay) the left foot on the ground at the time of leaving the ground. Okay? Right now, you're doing good, just take the right foot off the ground.

2)Yes, I want you to take the right foot off the ground. You have to keep the pelvis/hips moving....Or else it will look like a wooden puppet!! Almost every motion starts from hips/pelvis in most of the cases...If you don't move the pelvis, it will start to look like a puppet. Yeah, you're doing good, follow animator's survival kit. Everything's in there!

And yes- thnx for the video.
How can I download it? If you can give me a link I can upload it on vimeo and post it here
like my other videos- under ur credit of course.

Oh! You want that simple PAP animation? Sure! Here you go.....http://www.amritd.com/MyVideos/postJump.mov

Once again man- thnx a lot. This did clear up some really heavy stuff.
I'm glad to be of some help. :)

Amrit are you doing the keith lango personal trainer? if so how great is it ? I was considering it as a less time intensive alternative to AM after i graduate from Uni.
No...not yet....But I'm planning to join &quot;APT&quot; very soon! Some of my friends are doing APT, and they love it! Its simply awesome to learn animation personally from an experienced animator like Keith Lango! Its always great to learn the tips and tricks from the big boys, and you start to think and work like them!! heheh... I shall not compare AM and APT.... They both are great for anyone who wants to learn animation!!

Good luck Amit! Keep practicing! :)
later,
-A

mrflynn
01-05-2007, 12:00 PM
Some brilliant crits going on here ;) Keep it up lads well apreciated!

Amit_S
01-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Hello everyone!
I now have the Digital Tutors Body Mechanics set which I exchanged for my gnomon tapes. It features a weight lifting example " clean and jerk" with follow through.
But am I proceeding too fast? I'm just getting into jumps- that too I'm not very good at that...but even then I feel like I have to push the envelope every now and then.
Anyways. I havent made the updated jump today but made 2 poses from the tapes.

Heres the storyboard:

http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/DTWtLifting.jpg

In these 2 poses I guess I am trying to bring out the LINE OF ACTION.
The so alled C and S shape.
So are they OK?

Pose 1: In this pose he's just looking up the barbell/ contemplating the situation. Its supposed to be a power pose.

Pose 1 Side View:

http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/01.Pose1SideView.jpg


Pose 1 Front View:

http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/01.Pose1FrontView.jpg

Amit_S
01-06-2007, 05:30 PM
Here is the second pose. In this he is holding onto the barbell. He has not started lifting yet. Just getting into position.

Second Pose side View:

http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/01.Pose2SideView.jpg


Second Pose front View:

http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/01.Pose2FrontView.jpg

Amit_S
01-06-2007, 06:39 PM
:shrug:

Maybe this might help answer those questions Amit.
The landing and recovery isn't that great so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. :)

Wow man- another gif!
Thnx Ron!
Yup- now do understand the part perfectly.
_____________________________________________________

Amrit-Derhgawen[/b]]

Here's one handy dandy tip for ya! Take a dry-erase marker (erasable marker) and then select your object and in Maya, press &quot;w&quot; key to activate the translation tool, because it brings up a little milti axis icon with a little box in the center of it. This is an easy way to see the exact center of hips on any given frame. Then plot a dotted line on your monitor with your trusty dry-earase marker. That way you can easily work on your arcs!! I learned this tip from Shawn Kelly's Animation Mentor tips and tricks.... (WARNING!: Do NOT use a Permanent marker (sharpie)...it WILL damage your screen permanently and do not use a dry-erase marker on an LCD screen, it could damage it.)



1)You don't have to hold any frame anywhere. You just have to hold (or delay) the left foot on the ground at the time of leaving the ground. Okay? Right now, you're doing good, just take the right foot off the ground.

2)Yes, I want you to take the right foot off the ground. You have to keep the pelvis/hips moving....Or else it will look like a wooden puppet!! Almost every motion starts from hips/pelvis in most of the cases...If you don't move the pelvis, it will start to look like a puppet. Yeah, you're doing good, follow animator's survival kit. Everything's in there!



Thnx again.
I get the point about markers. Will use it next time.
About the frame hold thing- its just like Rons gif , correct?

And thnx for the video download!

________________________________________________



yeah dont worry extremely common mistake... to be honest after looking at this i quite fancy havign a go at a jump animation! file:///D:/Desktop/Ani/Me_CGTak/CGTalk%20-%20Learning%20Animation%20thread04_files/grin.gif



Cool! Looking forward to see your stuff.

_________________________________________________




Some brilliant crits going on here ;) Keep it up lads well apreciated!



Thnx man!

SirRon
01-06-2007, 06:50 PM
I can tell from the side view that the pose you have is symmetrical. Poses are rarely symmetrical. Looking at the storyboard the first pose has the right shoulder and arm a little bit lower than the left. I think it would be good to work on the poses you want to use before you actually start animating. I believe that's what AM students practice first before they start animating their biped character after animating the ball.

I forgot where I read this but 5 poses for actions are:
1. Rest state
2. Anticipation
3. Inbetween of anticipation and the next pose.
4. Overshoot
5. Settle

The emphasis of each of those poses depends on your animation and style.

Amit_S
01-06-2007, 07:45 PM
I can tell from the side view that the pose you have is symmetrical. Poses are rarely symmetrical. Looking at the storyboard the first pose has the right shoulder and arm a little bit lower than the left. I think it would be good to work on the poses you want to use before you actually start animating. I believe that's what AM students practice first before they start animating their biped character after animating the ball.



Thnx for the comments.
I completely forgot about the symmetry thing. In fact I deliberately copy pasted values from one part of the body to the opp limb. Dumb.
I'll take care of that.



I forgot where I read this but 5 poses for actions are:
1. Rest state
2. Anticipation
3. Inbetween of anticipation and the next pose.
4. Overshoot
5. Settle

The emphasis of each of those poses depends on your animation and style.

I'm completely confused here.
Are those 5 things different actions? Plz explain this point again.

SirRon
01-06-2007, 10:24 PM
They are 5 poses.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/5poses.gif

Rest state is just the pose before anything starts.

Depending on the action you have it might not have or you don't notice as much of certain poses. A martial artist wouldn't have as much anticipation, especially Bruce Lee because he moves so fast. One moment you see his pose next thing you know he has his fist in some guy's face. Heavy actions have more anticipation, you see more of the effort of lifting than you see the actual lift.

Overshoot is like when you try to stop after running really fast. The moment you want to stop you can't help but take a few steps forward because you still have forward momentum. Like from the Road Runner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsfOKsg8yv4) cartoons (look at 0:50-52) His legs don't move, no overshoot, but the rest of his body keeps moving before it settles.

Hope that makes better sense and I really hope it's good advice :)

Amit_S
01-07-2007, 03:00 AM
Hey Ron!
Thnx again. That gif hit bulls eye. I understand the point you were trying to make.
And thnx for the road runner link. Its loading up right now. A perfect way to start my day:thumbsup:

Amit_S
01-07-2007, 06:59 AM
Deleted.
Post not needed.

Amit_S
01-07-2007, 07:03 AM
Post not needed.
Deleted.

Amit_S
01-08-2007, 07:24 PM
Hey everyone!

I just blocked out the weight lifting clip. And mind you, its only in the blocking phase.
I havent done anything regarding asymmetry, or anticipation etc etc. All that will be in the second step.

Perspective View:
01.DTWeightLiftingPersView

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:128571


Side View:
01.DTWeightLiftingSideView

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:128586

Front View:
01.DTWeightLiftingFrontView

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:128591

Amit_S
01-08-2007, 07:51 PM
Timing Issues:

I'm following the Digital Tutors Body Mechaics CD for this.
This is how it progresses:
1st the tangents were set to Linear-Stepped.
Then the poses were blocked at intervals of 10-20 frames.
After that the timing of the poses was changed according to how much time each segment of an action would take.

Now heres the thing which really confused me:
1.He changed the timing of the poses while still in Linear-Stepped mode.
The pose was just jumping from 1 pose to another, no inbetweens.
Wouldnt it have been easier to set the timing of the poses if the tangents were set to flat or only linear or only spline mode? That way u can actually see the pose flowing from 1 pose to another. With the Linear-Stepped mode the poses were just going from pose 1 to pose 2 directly without any flow.

Personally I couldnt understand how he was calculating the timing while in the Linear-Stepped mode. I didnt understand a thing in this segment of the tapes.
I just followed along and used the values he used.

2.Why use the Linear-Stepped mode at all? I understand the reason for blocking out the animation before getting into the deatils (pose-to-pose animation). But even then isnt it more natural to use spline mode?

blurgh
01-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Yeah i believe theyve borrowed this workflow from the famous keith lango's pose to pose tutorial

tbh as a workflow ive never really understood the method and found it quite awkward...


id like to see what the other thread regulars have to say on it especially Amrit and SirRon (bieng keiths lango VTS subscribers)


-Darken

SirRon
01-09-2007, 04:53 AM
Yeah i believe theyve borrowed this workflow from the famous keith lango's pose to pose tutorial

tbh as a workflow ive never really understood the method and found it quite awkward...


id like to see what the other thread regulars have to say on it especially Amrit and SirRon (bieng keiths lango VTS subscribers)


-Darken

Yes that pose to pose tutorial was very awkward to me. And later Keith does express some flaws too.

I am quite happy that a method I've fallen into is one that he ended up with too. That is to actually key poses in adjacent frames. That way when you go 'next key'..'next key'..'next key'... it kind of feels like you're flipping pages.

I used to do the same thing you did Amit. Key poses every 10 frames. But I had a hard time seeing the movement in relation to the poses. So then I started to work in relation to the 5 poses I've mentioned:

1-Rest
2-Anticipation
3-Inbetween
4-Overshoot
5-Settle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/timing.gif

When I get some good poses then I start playing with the timing between those keys. Playblast to feel how it moves. Still in stepped tangents. My .gif would be the same thing in Maya as if it was stepped tangents.

If you look at Aaron Hartline's Ice Age test animation (http://www.aaronhartline.com/viewer.php?url=/video/iceage/1.mov&type=mov&height=244&width=432) you'll see that the animation is in stepped tangent. But the breakdowns define so much of the movement it looks mostly fluid, except for some parts that are meant to play fast. *sigh* animation... :love:

Please understand I'm not an expert veteran of animation. This is what I've learned up to this point. If it's the right track then great! But any confirmation or corrections of this thinking would be appreciated too.

You can still see the .gif through quicktime if you prefer. Just save it and open in quicktime.

I would like to know how Amrit thinks, he is the better animator :D

moose2k1
01-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Hi Amit, sorry for the delay. I'm traveling all over, ok, on to your weight lifting pose.

You are going from an S shape to an S shape. Start his standing pose in a C shape, bring his chest in, not puffed out. When he goes down he hits that S shape as he holds the bar. In your video, you had him go from a S to a C to an S when holding the bar, really good! You see how you feel his weight is being transferred through his spine in those poses.

He is too symmetrical as mentioned prior. Have him favor one side or the other just enough to break up the symmetry. Make sure you always start with the root in your poses. Work from the root --> outward in animation.

I know you are still blocking, but look for the subtle acting that will help break up the symmetry. For example, he can take a small step forward when he bends over to lift the weights. when he pulls, have him lean back-left or back-right versus leaning back-middle. I would have him shuffle his feet more in between readjusting for the pull. This will build more character into your character (i.e. adding appeal).

You are on your first block, so don't worry so much about your inbetweens until you get the timing down on your key poses, and stregthen the poses.

When you are satisfied with the timing, and poses (acting), then you can work the inbetweens. If your timing and poses are off, your piece will not be good no matter how nice your anticipation, follow-through, and overlap is.

Amrit-Derhgawen
01-10-2007, 03:34 AM
Now heres the thing which really confused me:
1.He changed the timing of the poses while still in Linear-Stepped mode.
The pose was just jumping from 1 pose to another, no inbetweens.
Wouldnt it have been easier to set the timing of the poses if the tangents were set to flat or only linear or only spline mode? That way u can actually see the pose flowing from 1 pose to another. With the Linear-Stepped mode the poses were just going from pose 1 to pose 2 directly without any flow.

Personally I couldnt understand how he was calculating the timing while in the Linear-Stepped mode. I didnt understand a thing in this segment of the tapes.
I just followed along and used the values he used.

2.Why use the Linear-Stepped mode at all? I understand the reason for blocking out the animation before getting into the deatils (pose-to-pose animation). But even then isnt it more natural to use spline mode?

Yeah i believe theyve borrowed this workflow from the famous keith lango's pose to pose tutorial

tbh as a workflow ive never really understood the method and found it quite awkward...

Okay Amit!

I can see what you're saying here. I totally agree with Ronan and moose2k1.
First of all I would like the tell you that, (as far as I know) Mr. Lango is not an inventor of pose to pose approach (usually worked with stepped/held tangents). He likes to think everything in a 2d way. And I love his approach, that has helped me a lot with my animations. When I was not aware of this approach I used to make crappy animations, but after following that approach, now I proudly make less crappy animations. heheh....

Whenever you animate, first ask yourself this question: "How am I gonna animate this in 2D??" Think of your frames like drawings......Your inbetweens are not gonna help you much time your animations.

if you're going from a pose A to a second pose B.......ask yourself....HOW will you move from pose A to B?
And secondly, you may wanna ask yourself "how quickly will it transition from A to B?" Thats timing! For example, if you've made one drawing "A" (or pose A) on frame 1, and your second drawing "B" on frame 8.....and you think that your timing looks kinda slow. And maya is holding drawing A till frame 7 (in stepped/held tangents), and finally brings drawing B on frame 8. You think that the hold looks kinda big, and you wanna reduce the timing.... Then you might wanna bring the drawing B closer to drawing A, say on frame 5. So, you've moved "drawing B" 3 frames towards "drawing A". This has directly changed your timing here. I usually do this in a pencil shooter software called MonkeyJam. Which easily lets me play with the timing. Never confuse this with spacing.

In the words of Keith Lango:
Timing: The time it takes for any object in motion (arm, leg, ball, can of spam, etc.) to go from resting in one position to resting in another new position (pose).

Spacing: How the object in motion covers that distance incrementally from one position to the next. Each new frame shows the object in a new position in two dimensional screen space. The space between where the object was in the previous frame and where it is now in the current frame is the core of spacing. One can manipulate this element to give motion a unique flavor and style as well as the illusion of velocity.

And always try to go back and do some basics with bouncing balls. Real great animation comes with the understanding of these concepts and learn how to apply them in 3d. You're really doing good, so at this stage I want you to look at the bridge between 2d and 3d. Because a good CG/3d animation is based on the fundamentals of 2d animation, and is based on everything which were told by "Nine Old Men". So, you should always think from that perspective.

In 2d animation, (in general pose to pose) you make keydrawings and then your breakdowns (also known as transition drawings) which will be based on your keydrawings, and they govern your arcs, eases, overlaps, favors, settles.......did I miss something? I guess not! heheh.....Then you work on your timing (I usually do this after assigning my primary breakdowns). Then I do the secondary breakdowns to furthur define the mechanics. Then comes the "inbetweening" part. Where you just add straight inbetweens, because everything is already defined, your inbetweens will not (and should not) change your timing etc. They are just there to smooth up your animation. However, you can alter them to add some subtle changes. Thats just how I like to work, and this is what I usually do in 3d. People who work on inbetweens are known as inbetweeners. Maya is just like your (DUMB!) inbetweener friend. Its really good in making straight inbetweens. But before it makes any, you should take control of your animation and its timing.

You wanna add more life to your work, just learn more about breakdowns and learn how to use them efficiently...this will really help to change the look and feel of your animation. Get a 2d animation software like Plastic Animation Paper (my favorite) or Flash MX or any other software. If you're not comfortable with 2d, draw and animate a simple bouncing ball cycle just to see where you're missing and what makes you confused. And let us know about your weakness. We'll try to help!
Please read Keith Lango's tutorials http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/overlap/overlap.html
and
http://www.keithlango.com/wordpress/?page_id=281

They are really helpful, they have changed my animation, from "really crappy" to "less crappy"! And I know if I follow these approach, someday I'll be able to animate like Keith! (I hope!!)

Also read Mike Walling's approach...Really great stuff!!

http://www.mike-walling.com/docs/Workflow.doc (http://www.mike-walling.com/docs/Workflow.doc)


Now you may say (thats normal), "ohh c'mon do I have to do all this crap??" Ummm....I think yeah! I'm sorry but this is animation....and I won't recommend any dumb shortcuts! heheh.... It may seem tedious, that's the effort that's needed to take simply OK animation and push it to the next level. If this were easy or simple or fast, then everybody would be doing it. Right? But those who put in the effort to really push their shots the furthest they can go.
Hope this helps you! Let me know if you have any more questions!:)

Good luck!
-A

SirRon
01-10-2007, 04:17 AM
They are really helpful, they have changed my animation, from "really crappy" to "less crappy"! And I know if I follow these approach, someday I'll be able to animate like Keith! (I hope!!)

Me too! I also got that feeling 'really crappy' to 'less crappy' :)

I'm really surprised and happy by the enthusiasm in this thread. This is really great to talk about the how to and the why do we animate.

I also had the feeling of 'wow this is A LOT of work' and it is.

Thanks for sharing that workflow document Amrit, good stuff.

Amit_S
01-10-2007, 07:51 AM
I am quite happy that a method I've fallen into is one that he ended up with too. That is to actually key poses in adjacent frames. That way when you go 'next key'..'next key'..'next key'... it kind of feels like you're flipping pages.

I used to do the same thing you did Amit. Key poses every 10 frames. But I had a hard time seeing the movement in relation to the poses. So then I started to work in relation to the 5 poses I've mentioned:

1-Rest
2-Anticipation
3-Inbetween
4-Overshoot
5-Settle


When I get some good poses then I start playing with the timing between those keys. Playblast to feel how it moves. Still in stepped tangents. My .gif would be the same thing in Maya as if it was stepped tangents.

Hey Ron!
Thnx for this and the gif.

From what i read here, this is I think what u do:
1.You start making poses with your characters.
2.Each and every mini-segment of your animation clip is divided into the 5 parts u mentioned.
3.All the poses are placed a few keys (say for e.g. 5 keys or just 2 keys) apart from each other. The tangents u use are Linear-Stepped. That way when you scrub through your animation -it feels like you are flipping pages as in cell animation.
4.After you are satisfied with this you start working on your breakdowns.
5.Then you adjust the individual timings of the poses.

Is that what you mean?
Plz correct me if I'm wrong.

_______________________________________________




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/timing.gif

About this gif:
I understood most of the stuff from this.
But what I did not understand was the comparision between heavy hammer and light hammer.
The heavy hammer takes more time as compared to the lighter screen- that was the only point you were trying to make with the comparisions, right? Cause everything else anticipation, poses etc seem to be the same.



If you look at Aaron Hartline's Ice Age test animation (http://www.aaronhartline.com/viewer.php?url=/video/iceage/1.mov&type=mov&height=244&width=432) you'll see that the animation is in stepped tangent. But the breakdowns define so much of the movement it looks mostly fluid, except for some parts that are meant to play fast. *sigh* animation... :love:

That clip is blocked?!Wow!
Hell! The number of breakdowns ...!

Amit_S
01-10-2007, 08:19 AM
Hi Amit, sorry for the delay. I'm traveling all over, ok, on to your weight lifting pose.


Hey no probs! I'm just thankful u took out the time to post here.


You are going from an S shape to an S shape. Start his standing pose in a C shape, bring his chest in, not puffed out. When he goes down he hits that S shape as he holds the bar. In your video, you had him go from a S to a C to an S when holding the bar, really good! You see how you feel his weight is being transferred through his spine in those poses.

This is what I understand from this part:
1.From what I read in weakchilds thread when you are looking for an S or C shape- you look at his back.

2.So you shouldnt simply try to show C and S poses whenever u can. U should show them alternately in each and every pose. Is that correct? Or is it that u should show them alternately only when u are doing some heavy acion -like lifting something or jumping.

I'm sure you can make out from my questions that I am totally confused about these things. Is there any tutorial you know of which will explain the C and S shapes in more detail? If time permits- can you post in more detail about how to use those C and S shapes...



He is too symmetrical as mentioned prior. Have him favor one side or the other just enough to break up the symmetry. Make sure you always start with the root in your poses. Work from the root --> outward in animation.

Yes the root.........
I've read and heard this so many times. But just dont understand what it is. I've always assumed you are talking about the hips. Is that correct?
Or by the root do you mean something like a Power Centre/ Centre of Personality.

Plz check out this Keith Lango tut:
http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/powerCenter/powerCenter.htm
Is this what u mean by the root?

And when you say start from the root:
Do you mean I should initiate the action from that 'root' ? And have all the other parts of that body get dragged behind/ just follow that root?

I dont think I'm wording myself correctly here. Let me try it one more time:
Say theres this biped. Now he does some action -like Rons e.g. he swings a hammer.
Lets assume his root is his fist holding the hammer and his hammer , forearm muscles are the secondary objects.
I should time it in such a way that it looks like the fist moved first-either in anticipation or just the action. And the hammer, forearm muscles they just follow the root and when the root stops the secondary objects continue their motion for just a split second cause of their momemtum and then stop.
Is that correct? Is this what is meant by 'root', 'initiating movement with root'?

Also theres this article again by Keith Lango:
http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/LeadFollow/leadFollow.htm


I know you are still blocking, but look for the subtle acting that will help break up the symmetry. For example, he can take a small step forward when he bends over to lift the weights. when he pulls, have him lean back-left or back-right versus leaning back-middle. I would have him shuffle his feet more in between readjusting for the pull. This will build more character into your character (i.e. adding appeal).

You are on your first block, so don't worry so much about your inbetweens until you get the timing down on your key poses, and stregthen the poses.
Yup! All this is exactly what I'm trying to work on right now. But I'm trying to follow the tuts as closely as possible. In it body parts have been hidden and u work on just 1 part at a time while working on breakdowns and inbetweens. Of course this is after all the poses have been blocked and timed.


1 last thing- I'm sure you must've guessed by now that I'm a total noob at this. All those questions about the root and the shapes etc etc.... Thnx for posting though!

Amit_S
01-10-2007, 09:08 AM
Whenever you animate, first ask yourself this question: "How am I gonna animate this in 2D??" Think of your frames like drawings......Your inbetweens are not gonna help you much time your animations.

if you're going from a pose A to a second pose B.......ask yourself....HOW will you move from pose A to B?
And secondly, you may wanna ask yourself "how quickly will it transition from A to B?" Thats timing! For example, if you've made one drawing "A" (or pose A) on frame 1, and your second drawing "B" on frame 8.....and you think that your timing looks kinda slow. And maya is holding drawing A till frame 7 (in stepped/held tangents), and finally brings drawing B on frame 8. You think that the hold looks kinda big, and you wanna reduce the timing.... Then you might wanna bring the drawing B closer to drawing A, say on frame 5. So, you've moved "drawing B" 3 frames towards "drawing A". This has directly changed your timing here. I usually do this in a pencil shooter software called MonkeyJam. Which easily lets me play with the timing. Never confuse this with spacing.

Hey Amrit.
Thnx for all these tips and all...but I am a little confused here. Plz help me out here.....

From the above this is what u say:
1.You start making poses with your characters.
2.All poses are done in Linear-Stepped.
3.When you scrub through your animation -it feels like you are flipping pages as in cell animation.

Now heres the deal: I can understand the 1st two points. But only for getting the right poses. Not for the timing.
You say this:

you may wanna ask yourself "how quickly will it transition from A to B?"
So while checking the timings - do you have to imagine and calculate in your head where the timings go?
Rather than doing that why not this:
1.Make all ur poses in Linear-Stepped.
2.Once you are satisfied with you poses -convert tangets to Linear or Spline. And then start working on your timings. At this point dont add any inbetweens or breakdowns. Just adjust the timing of the poses. That way u take the guesswork out of the equation.
Of course all the inbetweens and breakdowns will be wrong- but you can take care of all that later.



In 2d animation, (in general pose to pose) you make keydrawings and then your breakdowns (also known as transition drawings) which will be based on your keydrawings, and they govern your arcs, eases, overlaps, favors, settles.......did I miss something? I guess not! heheh.....Then you work on your timing (I usually do this after assigning my primary breakdowns). Then I do the secondary breakdowns to furthur define the mechanics. Then comes the "inbetweening" part. Where you just add straight inbetweens, because everything is already defined, your inbetweens will not (and should not) change your timing etc. They are just there to smooth up your animation. However, you can alter them to add some subtle changes. Thats just how I like to work, and this is what I usually do in 3d. People who work on inbetweens are known as inbetweeners. Maya is just like your (DUMB!) inbetweener friend. Its really good in making straight inbetweens. But before it makes any, you should take control of your animation and its timing.


Hmmm... Ok- yes - I understand this and this does help me.
So what I would do is do all the poses and then breakdowns in Linear-Stepped.
Then convert to spline mode and work on the timings. Then do inbetweens.


You wanna add more life to your work, just learn more about breakdowns and learn how to use them efficiently...this will really help to change the look and feel of your animation. Get a 2d animation software like Plastic Animation Paper (my favorite) or Flash MX or any other software. If you're not comfortable with 2d, draw and animate a simple bouncing ball cycle just to see where you're missing and what makes you confused. And let us know about your weakness. We'll try to help!
Please read Keith Lango's tutorials http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/overlap/overlap.html
and
http://www.keithlango.com/wordpress/?page_id=281

-A

Thnx for the Word Doc. I guess its kindda like what I was saying...I'll just go through the whole document and try it out.
And thnx for the Keith Lango links. Man this sux! U must think I'm really stupid- but I had read quite a few of those articles before....but reading is 1 thing -applying it quite another.

By the way where do u live in India? And how much did Keith Langos program cost u in rupees? I wanted to try for AM or Lango - but when I saw the price- sux man! Not saying they are not worth what they are charging. Its just that I dont have that money:(

Amrit-Derhgawen
01-10-2007, 12:32 PM
Hi Amit!

Something about me--->
Currently I'm living in New Delhi, India, trying to learn animation and trying to find a good job in the animation industry. I've spent some years(my childhood) in Chicago, IL (my second home) from where I've done my Junior High and High School (1995). Some members of my family lives there, so for the VTS, I don't have to pay in Indian currency. I simply use my PayPal and pay him directly in US dollers. Okay enough!!

Back to the topic:
I can see why you're confused! You just wanna see your animation with inbetweens, because you think that they will help you visualize better. Well, I don't think you should be that much dependent on the inbetweens. Look, there is no right or wrong way in animation. If you feel comfortable working in linear mode, then just go for it!!:) But I like to work in stepped mode because it feels like 2D and this is how I've been taught. I just feel more comfortable working in this way. When you create 2d animation, you don't get inbetweens for free. Maya can give you inbetweens for FREE!! I don't think those inbetweens help me much to visualize my overall animation. But if you think that they are helping you create better animation then just go ahead and work in linear tangents!
Even in stepped mode my animation (and I've seen some better animators) looks almost complete. Interpolating my animation (converting into linear or spline) is just like frosting on a cake. Interpolation just makes it look smoother.
So, you may have to work on more keyframes, and the less you give the computer control your animation the better everything will end up.
And yeah, if technology is helping you cerate better animations...then stick with that technology. But never get dependent on that.

I get a feeling that at this stage you're overdoing things. You're doing a lot of things at the same time. (If I'm not wrong)You're following some tutorial, and then following keith's tutorials. And you find some contradictions and finally you get confused. Remember there could be millon ways to animate!....2D or NOT 2D!!??? That is the question!! Just forget everything.... Do what you think is helping you create better stuff!
Try to find your approach, keep your faith in that.....and soon all your confusions will melt away...and you'll animate with a lot more confidence!

For me, animation is not inside Maya or some softaware. Its 90 percent outside maya/software.....First I animate in my head. I close my eyes and I'm animating! I dive into maya just to put them all together. I usually end up spending more time thinking/planning and drawing than actually working on maya. So, don't just move those NURBS controls and create keyframes. Think before you animate....It will help you a lot! It has helped me a lot and now I think I make less crappy animations. Isn't that great!!

Hope this helps....
Good luck!
-A

SirRon
01-10-2007, 07:04 PM
Hey Ron!
Thnx for this and the gif.

From what i read here, this is I think what u do:
1.You start making poses with your characters.
2.Each and every mini-segment of your animation clip is divided into the 5 parts u mentioned.
3.All the poses are placed a few keys (say for e.g. 5 keys or just 2 keys) apart from each other. The tangents u use are Linear-Stepped. That way when you scrub through your animation -it feels like you are flipping pages as in cell animation.
4.After you are satisfied with this you start working on your breakdowns.
5.Then you adjust the individual timings of the poses.

Is that what you mean?
Plz correct me if I'm wrong.


Very close, I do 5. and then I do 4. For me finding the timing means figuring out how long should a pose be shown.
1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - - 5 (too even, linear)
1 - - 2 - - - - - - 3 - 4 - - - 5 (longer anticipation)
1 2 - 3 - - 4 - - - - - - 5 (long overshoot and spends a lot of time to settle)

So I get my poses, find timing, then add breakdowns.


About this gif:
I understood most of the stuff from this.
But what I did not understand was the comparision between heavy hammer and light hammer.
The heavy hammer takes more time as compared to the lighter screen- that was the only point you were trying to make with the comparisions, right? Cause everything else anticipation, poses etc seem to be the same.

Yes, every pose is exactly the same. But the timing gives it a different feeling. To be honest, the 'heavy hammer' was a bad example :blush: The main thing I wanted to show was that the timing is important to convey what you want to show. Like what moose2k1 said: "If your timing and poses are off, your piece will not be good no matter how nice your anticipation, follow-through, and overlap is."

The reason why I started thinking about those 5 poses is because I was learning what timing and posing meant. Perhaps to make it easier to absorb this information, don't think too much about the '5 poses' that I mentioned. Rather think about posing and timing... and all the other principles of animation.

Amit_S
01-11-2007, 09:16 AM
Very close, I do 5. and then I do 4. For me finding the timing means figuring out how long should a pose be shown.
1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - - 5 (too even, linear)
1 - - 2 - - - - - - 3 - 4 - - - 5 (longer anticipation)
1 2 - 3 - - 4 - - - - - - 5 (long overshoot and spends a lot of time to settle)

So I get my poses, find timing, then add breakdowns. .

I get it.:thumbsup:


Yes, every pose is exactly the same. But the timing gives it a different feeling. To be honest, the 'heavy hammer' was a bad example :blush: The main thing I wanted to show was that the timing is important to convey what you want to show. Like what moose2k1 said: "If your timing and poses are off, your piece will not be good no matter how nice your anticipation, follow-through, and overlap is."

The reason why I started thinking about those 5 poses is because I was learning what timing and posing meant. Perhaps to make it easier to absorb this information, don't think too much about the '5 poses' that I mentioned. Rather think about posing and timing... and all the other principles of animation.

OK - now I get this point too.
The only reason I got confused with the heavy and light hammer is cause I thought u were trying to show some other point rather than only the timing. Now its perfect...the heavy hammer as I mentioned does move faster.

Amit_S
01-11-2007, 10:40 AM
Hi Amit!
I get a feeling that at this stage you're overdoing things. You're doing a lot of things at the same time. (If I'm not wrong)You're following some tutorial, and then following keith's tutorials. And you find some contradictions and finally you get confused. Remember there could be millon ways to animate!....2D or NOT 2D!!??? That is the question!! Just forget everything.... Do what you think is helping you create better stuff!
Try to find your approach, keep your faith in that.....and soon all your confusions will melt away...and you'll animate with a lot more confidence!



Hey Amrit!
So u r still studying , eh?
How old r u? I read this thread on cgtantra where u mentioned that u are 75 or something....;)

And u know what-the above para hits the matter bang on!
Im trying to do too many things........I'm going to take 1 thing at a time now.....

And thnx again for the Mike Walling word doc.
I went through...and I'm already doing some of that....but aim to try and do his entire method today........

Amit_S
01-11-2007, 10:45 AM
u know something....I was going to upload a video yesterday but couldnt cause my modem was messed up. Then today when I can go online I downloaded a clean and jerk video- turns out that some of the things I was doing were completely wrong. Dumb man- to animate something without a reference....

POSES:
I was thinking about everything posted here on the poses and the timings...
it just stuck me then- poses are nothing but comics! Just like in comics u r supposed to tell ur story through ur main blocked poses. That series of panels with drawings (or frames for that matter) should tell the entire story. Is my thinkng correct?
I'm going to start blocking keeping this definition in my mind now.

SirRon
01-11-2007, 03:52 PM
POSES:
I was thinking about everything posted here on the poses and the timings...
it just stuck me then- poses are nothing but comics! Just like in comics u r supposed to tell ur story through ur main blocked poses. That series of panels with drawings (or frames for that matter) should tell the entire story. Is my thinkng correct?

Yes! That's great thinking! :)

Your main poses are your story telling poses, just like a comic. But be careful about having too many poses.

If you need references, here's a website that's very helpful in case you haven't already found it.
BBC Motion Gallery (http://www.bbcmotiongallery.com/Customer/index.aspx)
Search with 'weight lifting' (http://www.bbcmotiongallery.com/Customer/SearchResults.aspx?searchText=weight+lifting&type=Simple&clipsPerPage=15)

Amrit-Derhgawen
01-11-2007, 10:51 PM
Hey Amrit!
So u r still studying , eh?

Yes you're right! I'm studying....I'm studying animation!.....and I'll study it throughout my life...

How old r u? I'm 25.

I read this thread on cgtantra where u mentioned that u are 75 or something....;)
Woooot! I would love to see that post! I don't think I was drunk! Ooh! I didn't know that some people in this world think that I'm 75 years old!! Then I think you can count me in that group of Nine Old Men!:rolleyes:

And u know what-the above para hits the matter bang on!
Im trying to do too many things........I'm going to take 1 thing at a time now.....

And thnx again for the Mike Walling word doc.
I went through...and I'm already doing some of that....but aim to try and do his entire method today........

Glad that helped! :)
-A

Amit_S
01-13-2007, 09:32 AM
Hey Ron! Thnx for the links. Will check them out later.

Hey Amrit! -I think that was just a joke or something u mentioned on cgtantra.

My modem is still giving me problems.
I'm in a cyber cafe right now. Its taken hours to upload these videos.
I wont be able to type much. So here are the videos:

02.DTWeightLifting:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:129465


01.DTWeightLiftingJerkingBarNeedCritique
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:129467

It still needs a lot of working. But I wanted to show it to u guys anyways.
It sucks to be honest. I tried to follow the right methods as closely as possible- block it 1st, then timing, Rons 5 poses for every segment- but then slowly and steadily my method started detiorating. After a while it was more like a Straight Ahead style as Richard williams would call it.

Also -theres still a lot I dont understand-
like what is the ROOT ? U r supposed to start everything from the root-but what exactly is it?

Also the C and S shapes or the line of action- when to use what shape? When not to use curves and use straight lines?

SirRon
01-13-2007, 03:50 PM
The root is the controller for the hips. It can also be known as the CoG (center of gravity). Moving the root generally affects the hips, spine, neck, and head. If you had your arms or legs switched to FK, then I think the root will affect those too.

You know those rigs that's just a ball and legs? The root would just be the ball.

Amit_S
01-14-2007, 03:31 PM
This is the 1st time I'm glad that no one has given me any critiques.
I've kind of completed the weight lifting video- but wont be able to upload it. I'm still having modem problems.

So plz hold on to your critiques.I dont want to waste ur time. The video which I have completed has some parts which are a little different from the ones uploaded. But the cyber cafe I'm in doesnt seem to support large files.

I could upload only 1 part:

www.vimeo.com/129636 (http://www.vimeo.com/129636)

It contains the jerking segment.


______________________________________________________

And Ron-thnx for the reply.
The part of the ball with legs makes sense.

Amit_S
01-15-2007, 09:14 AM
OK- I do have the front and perspective views loaded up:

Perspective view:
01.DTWeightLiftingPers:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:129912

Front View:
01.DTWeightLiftingFront:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:129908

At this point I would say that this is mostly completed.
1.What I do plan to do is watch each and every segment again and see properly whether I've applied all the animation principles- arcs for eg. Also want to compare Rons 5 five poses to every segment. I tried to follow all the principles as I animated-but I guess I might've missed out a few things.
2.Also I want to have.............dont know what to call it- say......'static' movement. Whenever he is in a pose which requires him to stand in that poition for a few moments -like the part when he finally locks the barbell overhead- I want him to hold that position- but yet not be completely immobile. Move a little- maybe a little knee shiver, back movement etc. Have tried to do this but am not satisfied with my work.

Amit_S
01-16-2007, 05:01 PM
Not even one reply? Is it so bad?:sad:

Anyways, I am going back to walk cycles. Cannot upload any videos right now. Internet is still down. But plz plz plz post something. Even if you think it sucks. Otherwise I'll never learn:D

blurgh
01-16-2007, 11:57 PM
Hey man,

sorry its been a while since reply! start of college for me :p

I thought it looks pretty good ! certainly improving..

theres a few things i thought look a bit funky though... (i may be wrong mind you :p)

-I think you could do with making the time when he actually lifts it look harder for him... maybe make him struggle even more a wobble in the leg or something (only subtle mind you)
-and when he does the snap from the crough (resting with bar on his collar) to the final lift position that could do wit looking even harder too ( id try makign that pose with his left leg bag, start really low so he really has to drive his body up from the floor. (infact he could nearly look like he wont make it that will give you real struggle. At the moment it looks like his lower body is finding it pretty easy work and if hes doing it properly it shouldnt be :D
-The other thing i thought was a bit funky was the bar bounce at the end. It floats in the air way to long so you wont tangents that really make it jump up fast and come down fast(this will help give the impression of weight to the bar)


um also some other ideas... with the initial lift attempt id hunch him really far over the bar (this may look rubbish in terms of silouhettes) but it may give a real sense of anticipation to that first failed lift.. and when hes holding it up at the end maybe have one side of the bar start to beat him and start to drop (you have a little but i think you could boostthat up some)

Side note if the scene was lit it it might help base the character more, there are times where he doesnt convey the weight (of his own body) especially when he goes to the crouch supporting the bar on his collar.

Anyway its deffinatly a good start and these point i have mentioned might not be all that useful ;) hope to see the next version soon!

-Darken

SirRon
01-17-2007, 01:53 AM
Yes, you're improving, but there's still so much more :)

Oh, I was able to download the .avi. I didn't know I had to register to Vimeo.

Some things I notice:

1. When he's about to pick up the bar his hands look like it's 'snapping' to the bar.
2. On 0:02, as he's stepping forward (left then right leg) his root/hips is not moving at all. So it looks like it's glued in place.
3. Very good on the his first attempt bringing up the bar but failing. I saw the weight there.
4. When he makes that little hop trying to lift the bar, his feet are 'twinning' when they land. (Still not sure if that's the right term, so feel free to correct me.) Meaning they both hop and land exactly at the same time. Things look robotic when they do that. Break it up by holding or making one more faster than the other very subtlety.
5. The pose of the legs after that hop doesn't look strong to me, here's what I think would make a stronger pose. (The left one is the best I can do to copy what you had. The right is what I think looks stronger.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/2007-01-16_181459.jpg
6. The moment he lets go of the bar at 0:19 his body is motionless for a few frames.
7. I think that pose on the last frame has the beginnings of an excellent pose. Adjust the feet a little, raise the shoulders to appear more confident and I think it would look great.

I suggest after you've completed a part of the animation, try acting it exactly that you had animated. Everything from timing to pose. Whenever I do that I can feel what parts are wrong. That even works for quadrupeds too, I had to animate a horse rearing up for an internship, so I got on my legs and feet and did the motion. When I was alone in the room of course ;)

I have a hard time with 'static' movement too. I think 'subtle' would be a better word. The kind of motion where it's like holding your hand out and not moving, but it really is moving but very small. I'm still trying to learn that too. That kind of animation is my favorite, the kind where the character isn't moving to do a big action, but moving delicately. Something like this (http://www.aantin.com/videos/main.php?lang=en). I never get tired of watching it.

Amit_S
01-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Hello Darken and Ron!

Thnx for the critiques. But I wont read them right now. My net is still not working. I'm taking print-outs of ur critiques...'ll go home and then read them with my project in front of me.
Thnx again.

Darken: College? You mean ani/art college or something else.....
Ron: Man! glad to know you can now download the videos.:thumbsup: ___________________________

Ok- I've been trying walk cycles for a long time now. I feel this one is my best.
My biggest fault in this -I think - is that the upper body counter rotation is very very subtle. Too subtle in fact.

Front view:
01DTWalkCycleFront:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:130355

Side view:
01DTWalkCycleSide:

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:130356

Perspective view:
01DTWalkCyclePers

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:130357

Amit_S
01-17-2007, 02:16 PM
Hey man,

-I think you could do with making the time when he actually lifts it look harder for him... maybe make him struggle even more a wobble in the leg or something (only subtle mind you)


Ah! yes- I did think of it. But you know what- I totally missed out on my timings. In fact the 1st attempt- I've animated in the negative side of the time slider.
I had kept a lot of free frames for it. But then as I started animating things- the timing was totally wrong. During my initial blocking the last frame count was around 0-380. Now its -55 to 450 something.
I animated the 1st attempt as you now see it now-then thought of the leg wobble- but was scared to rearrange the timing again. Hence I skipped it.


-and when he does the snap from the crough (resting with bar on his collar) to the final lift position that could do wit looking even harder too ( id try makign that pose with his left leg bag, start really low so he really has to drive his body up from the floor. (infact he could nearly look like he wont make it that will give you real struggle. At the moment it looks like his lower body is finding it pretty easy work and if hes doing it properly it shouldnt be :D

Hmmm...about this point:"the snap from the crough (resting with bar on his collar) to the final lift position that could do wit looking even harder too."
Do you mean this part:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:130386

If you do, I've tried to make it hard for him....after he jumps into the lunge psition-it takes alot of time for him to press the bar up......and it travels slowly.
What exactly did you have in mind?
I'm confused:shrug:

If you didnt mean this point- then can u plz take a print screen shot of the position you are refering to..?
:)


-The other thing i thought was a bit funky was the bar bounce at the end. It floats in the air way to long so you wont tangents that really make it jump up fast and come down fast(this will help give the impression of weight to the bar)

Yeah...I missed this...
now that I looked at it..it does seem to float a bit.


um also some other ideas... with the initial lift attempt id hunch him really far over the bar (this may look rubbish in terms of silouhettes) but it may give a real sense of anticipation to that first failed lift.. and when hes holding it up at the end maybe have one side of the bar start to beat him and start to drop (you have a little but i think you could boostthat up some)

The cartoony effect, eh?
Yeah, I guess I could've done it- But this was my 1st complete animation project and I wanted to follow the tuts as closely as possible.


Side note if the scene was lit it it might help base the character more, there are times where he doesnt convey the weight (of his own body) especially when he goes to the crouch supporting the bar on his collar.
Lights?:eek: :eek:
Shit man! I dont understand a thing about lights and stuff.


Anyway its deffinatly a good start and these point i have mentioned might not be all that useful ;) hope to see the next version soon!

Next version.... hmmm...I'll be doing the corrections on this- but no man- no next version. My ADHD brain wont be able to stand the monotonous repetition. I have this project hopping habit. I'm just glad I finished this one. My 1st complete animation project , by the way. Thanx to all of you. :thumbsup:

Amit_S
01-17-2007, 02:30 PM
1. When he's about to pick up the bar his hands look like it's 'snapping' to the bar..

Yeah.. u r right.
Do u suggest bending his arm? Or perhaps -he should make his fist more slowly...?


2. On 0:02, as he's stepping forward (left then right leg) his root/hips is not moving at all. So it looks like it's glued in place...

Yes again. I'll do some subtle chest , hip motion in that time frame.


4. When he makes that little hop trying to lift the bar, his feet are 'twinning' when they land. (Still not sure if that's the right term, so feel free to correct me.) Meaning they both hop and land exactly at the same time. Things look robotic when they do that. Break it up by holding or making one more faster than the other very subtlety....

Yes again. I dont know the right term too- but they are landing at the same time.
I could go in for a more cartoony look...but I really dont want that. I guess I;ll try what u say...be very subtle.


5. The pose of the legs after that hop doesn't look strong to me, here's what I think would make a stronger pose. (The left one is the best I can do to copy what you had. The right is what I think looks stronger.)....

OK- will do this too.


6. The moment he lets go of the bar at 0:19 his body is motionless for a few frames..
U got me here. I dont understand what u r saying. I checked it- his body is not motionless.



I have a hard time with 'static' movement too. I think 'subtle' would be a better word. The kind of motion where it's like holding your hand out and not moving, but it really is moving but very small. I'm still trying to learn that too. That kind of animation is my favorite, the kind where the character isn't moving to do a big action, but moving delicately. Something like this (http://www.aantin.com/videos/main.php?lang=en). I never get tired of watching it.

Yeah...I know what u mean by this. I tried doing this too...when he has finally locked it overhead -I wanted him to hold the position for a sec to show it off to the judges/audience. But since the weight is heavy he is shaking....I did do something...but its a far cry from what I wanted to do.. Nice hand animation by the way. Very subtle hand motion as u said it.

SirRon
01-17-2007, 05:18 PM
5. ....
U got me here. I dont understand what u r saying. I checked it- his body is not motionless.


Sorry, I meant the hips. It seems like it's held in the translate Y for 3 frames. It happens a frame before he lets go. Watch the hips. I watched some of the footage from the BBC gallery and I noticed they move away from the weight when they drop it, that could've been a motion you had your rig do.

blurgh
01-17-2007, 11:34 PM
Hey man,
After seeign your quotes off of my posts I have to apologise for my typos ! I have no good excuse, Im just a really bas typer!

And yeah by college I mean Ravensbourne college in London www.Rave.ac.uk (http://www.Rave.ac.uk)
Its technically part of Sussex Uni.

"Hmmm...about this point:"the snap from the crough (resting with bar on his collar) to the final lift position that could do wit looking even harder too."
Do you mean this part:"

I mean this http://www.gimbal-lock.net/lift.jpg

In terms of suggestions.. hmm I guess jhust play with the tangents and try and give a real build up of energy that is required to lift it

-About making it cartoony, its one of those things that might work.. but really might not lol. So dont worry bout it :p

-the thing about lighting lol. Ive had the problem with my aniamtions before (its not even a problem really) I was just sayign that wih out shadows and stuff some things can look lighter than they would with. So when you do get to rendering it will probably look heavier which is a good thing :)


Walk Stuff!
-I really liked this :D you need to watch out for some IK popping on the knees, thats when they are at their maximum stretch on the contact poses usually. IK's dont like bieng stretched to their maximum.. the way round it is to make the legs jsut not quite perfectly straight.
- The only thing i really noticed was that I thought there was a little to much going on with the hips rotation, I knind of got an impression of a womenly walk from it (unless thats what you were going for?)
-Id drop his thumbs down a little for a more natural position and I think the fingers/ hands could have a little bit more overlaping action

great Stuff!

PS what did you think of the DT tutorials? anygood?
-Darken

Amit_S
01-23-2007, 03:33 PM
Sorry, I meant the hips. It seems like it's held in the translate Y for 3 frames. It happens a frame before he lets go. Watch the hips. I watched some of the footage from the BBC gallery and I noticed they move away from the weight when they drop it, that could've been a motion you had your rig do.

hey Ron!
No -you're right. Thats something I havent done. Missed that part completely. Will have to watch the videos more closely. Thnx!

Amit_S
01-23-2007, 03:44 PM
Hey man,
"Hmmm...about this point:"the snap from the crough (resting with bar on his collar) to the final lift position that could do wit looking even harder too."
Do you mean this part:"

I mean this

Hey man!
OK- I get this now.


Walk Stuff!
-I really liked this :D you need to watch out for some IK popping on the knees, thats when they are at their maximum stretch on the contact poses usually. IK's dont like bieng stretched to their maximum.. the way round it is to make the legs jsut not quite perfectly straight.

Popping , eh? Hmm... I completely missed this. I'll have a look at it again later.
I am working on another walk cycle -this time with the Hogan rig.


- The only thing i really noticed was that I thought there was a little to much going on with the hips rotation, I knind of got an impression of a womenly walk from it (unless thats what you were going for?)

Yeah man! I noticed that too. No- I didnt try to give it a feminine look. My mistake was either rotating the hips way too much or relatively speaking not rotating his upper body enough. But I'm not going back to it again...as I said I'm doing another walk cycle now....


-Id drop his thumbs down a little for a more natural position and I think the fingers/ hands could have a little bit more overlaping action
This part ties in with the point you mentioned above- I had done his hands properly- but with that exagerrated hip away his hands kept going through his hips. Hence I changed the hand positions to whatever looked fine without any interpolatio. (is that the right word by the way :shrug: )



great Stuff!
Thnx man!:thumbsup:

PS what did you think of the DT tutorials? anygood?
Oh yes- i'll whole heartedly recommend them. Cool stuff- to the point tutorials and great walk throughs.

Amit_S
01-23-2007, 03:51 PM
OK -my net connection is finally up and working from today :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce:

And hye everyone. I was busy with some other stuff -so I dont have anything new to post.

WalkCycle: What I did seems to be a better cycle as compared to my previous attempts. But this was mostly done by following the Digital Tutors CD.
Currently, I'm working on another walk cycle with Hogan to make sure I've got all the basics down correctly.

WeightLifting: Thnx for all the critiques. I'll redo some sections as soon as my walk cycle is done.

Amit_S
01-23-2007, 03:57 PM
So i'm doing another walk cycle and theres something which is really confusing me:What drives a step? Is it the leg/foot? or the hip?
Meaning when we are about to take a step -what initiates the motion-the hip or leg?

blurgh
01-23-2007, 05:48 PM
I guess, predominatly ddriven by the hip as it liftrs the leg and puts it back down, that bieng said there is a lot of drive comming through the foot that at the back. Its a combination of various body mechanics, thus why walks are hard lol.

-Darken

Amit_S
01-25-2007, 02:53 PM
Thnx Darken.
Update: Am still working on the walk cycle. Jeez- its not as easy as I thought it would be. Just a simple change of the model- and everything changes............

SirRon
01-25-2007, 04:45 PM
What ever you do, don't give up. Also, try to find ways to get a good foundation so you won't have to change everything and work your way up. If you have great key poses and the timing is the way you want it, you'll never have to change those. You might change it a little bit, but it's not going to be a headache because it's a few points. It's a headache when you have to change 20 other things.

Keep at it.

Amit_S
01-26-2007, 09:09 AM
Thnx for the encouragement Ron.
And no- I'm absolutely NOT giving up this time. I've learnt more stuff in the few weeks that I've been maintaining this thread than in the months before.
Its just about complete. There are a few little things that I have to get right- fine tune it to be precise. I should have it ready soon.

Amit_S
01-26-2007, 10:55 AM
Ok - I think I can post my hogan walk cycle now. I really dont know whether I can call it 'finished' right now- cause although i feel like it can use some improvement -I didnt know what to do.
My biggest problem was the model/rig structure. I didnt know you could alternate between the old blocky model and a 'JW' model with a human body structure. I started with the default blocky model and decided against a lot of movement in his boxy thorax. Then after all the torso work was done I came across that feature.
The biggest problem here is with the thorax- he should've rotated it more on the Y axiz and that part should also have been more flexible.

01.HoganWalkSide.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:132361

01.HoganWalkSide.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:132359

01.HoganWalkPers.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:132363

SirRon
01-26-2007, 04:26 PM
That walk cycle looks good, I like the movement of the hips and it has a good bounce to it.

But he isn't getting the support needed to keep his body from falling.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/WalkSupport.jpg

Also the arms swinging back looks forced. I think it's because to doesn't have much of an arc coming back. It almost looks like it goes in a straight line going back.

Once you feel comfortable doing this walk cycle, the next challenge is to make a walk cycle with an attitude.

Amit_S
01-27-2007, 03:15 AM
Hey Ron
Man..... that pose got by me....I should've pulled his front leg in.

His hands- hmm...yes- I completely forgot to check the arcs.
What I kept struggling was the speed at which he pulls his arms back versus the speed at which he throws them out. If I had just though about the arcs the spacing would've also taken care of the timing.:banghead:

And yes- i'm going to stick doing these vanilla walk cycles until I get a system in place then move towards attitude walks.

And hey! U r promoting my thread this week! Cool man -thnx :thumbsup:

_______________________________________________________________

Update- I've been working on another walk cycle since yesterday- with a Moom rig this time.
As I learn more and more- I find find theres even more to learn. I know thats a cliche- but true in my case.
Currently i'm struggling with his upper body flow through- how his chest will react to his back which willl react to his hips etc etc...I found this article by Keith Lango which should be helpful to everyone.
The Zen of Lead & Follow
http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/LeadFollow/leadFollow.htm

The biggest problem I'm facing is with having different speeds for different parts of the body and not have everything move at the same time. For eg- when he moves his foot up he does it slowly but when he keeps it down he slams it down fast. Apart from actually changing the position of he keyframe (less keyframes:fast, more keyframes:slow) what else do you guys do? For my last few attempts I kept playing around with the graph editor. But the results are not satisfactory.........guess there is a reason why so many guys keep practising with balls..

Amit_S
01-27-2007, 06:08 PM
OK- I've got another Walk cycle ready- with Moom this time.
Now I can honestly say that Iknow how to do walk cycles. Of course-there is a gap btween knowing and the proper execution. What I still lack is the judgement of how much to move what part of the body, the speed etc......and this is something that no tutorial is going to help me with...its going to be mostly trial and error before I develop the artists eye.

01.MoomWalkCycleFront.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:133016

01.MoomWalkCycleSide.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:133022

01.MoomWalkCyclePers.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:133030

SirRon
01-27-2007, 07:09 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention on my previous post. Would it be possible for you to make the cycle go three times and then upload to vimeo? That would make viewing the cycle a little easier.

Yes, I think right now the best thing to do is to keep doing this for experience. You probably won't benefit as much from tutorials.

As for your new walk cycle, Sorry to say but I like the previous one better, it felt smoother. This one does have nicer arm swings, the feet taking steps more interesting, a nice left-right swaying. But it looks a lot jerkier and stutters. Looking at the side view the root doesn't look like it has a smooth up and down motion. There's one frame where it only moves slightly down then the next frame goes down a lot. I think that's why it looks jittery.

Have you tried doing a walk cycle with just the root and legs? Like what you tried doing with the side step before except doing a walk. That will help simplify a walk and help build better judgment on how much to move the body parts?

I'd just like to know, but are you animating everything at the same time?

Amit_S
01-28-2007, 05:46 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention on my previous post. Would it be possible for you to make the cycle go three times and then upload to vimeo? That would make viewing the cycle a little easier.?

Hye!
Sure. Here you go:
01.MoomWalkCycleSideTripleCycle.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:133291

01.MoomWalkCycleFrontTripleCycle.avi:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:133287

If you want an even bigger loop , then you can just play it in quicktime. Just hit Ctrl+L


it looks a lot jerkier and stutters. Looking at the side view the root doesn't look like it has a smooth up and down motion. There's one frame where it only moves slightly down then the next frame goes down a lot. I think that's why it looks jittery.?

Yes -and thats cause I again messed up on the timing. I tried changing the shapes of the curve tangents, setting keys...this is the best I could do.

I'm really confused about how to set proper timings- slow in/out, slam something versus make something almost float.....I'm experimenting a lot with curves and all....but :sad:

And nice obeservation man! Now this might sound stupid. I wanted his hips to slam down - from the contact pose to down pose- and not ease in. I tried various things but nothing worked. In the end I just changed a few keys of the down position and put them on 3.5 rather than a whole number. I've set a few keys like that -on fractions rather than whole numbers.

Can you help me out with this. Keith Langos article helped in such a way that I know what to do now- when what will do a follow through, what will fall down hard versus ease down etc. But the HOW part is eluding me. And article , tutorial you can recommend for this?
Or perhaps something else I can do..

will doing bouncing balls help me with those concepts- how to speed up/down , eases etc...?


Have you tried doing a walk cycle with just the root and legs? Like what you tried doing with the side step before except doing a walk. That will help simplify a walk and help build better judgment on how much to move the body parts?

I'd just like to know, but are you animating everything at the same time?

No I'm not animating the full body at the same time if thats what you mean. I started with the hip and legs, then the torso and head, last arms.

Amit_S
02-03-2007, 06:35 PM
I'm still working on walk cycles. Apart from that I've started with Run cycles.
Heres my 1st Run attempt.

01MoomRunCycleFront:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136008

01MoomRunCycleSide:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136004

Its hardly a very good one. At this point I am satisfied with the genearl poses. But the flow, the speed -thats leave a lot to be desired. But I've reached a point where I dont know what to do.

So where do you guys think I messed up? How can I improve Run cycles?

Amit_S
02-03-2007, 06:44 PM
Weight-Lifting update: I cleaned up things in "weightlifting". There were some obvious mistakes in my 1st attempt which I missed , pointed to me by Ron and Darken. :thumbsup: -like the hand snap on the bar, too much bounce when the bar is thrown down etc.

There are still a few things which can use a lot of improvement-like static poses when he is standing still but has subtle motion -among other things.
I tried doing what I could but I am going to stop working on the weighlifting clip now- unless there's some glaring mistake which I missed.

But if you do notice some mistake- major or minor , or have a suggestion on how I can improve it, then plz plz do post it here. Although I'm not going to redo anything on this- I can use all the stuff I get here on my other projects.

03DTWeightLiftingFront:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:135953

03DTWeightLiftingSide:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136209

03DTWeightLiftingPers:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136215

Amit_S
02-04-2007, 06:20 AM
I had recently posted a question:What drives a step? Hip or Leg? on this very thread and on another post in the Animation category.

Here's something by andy_maxman/ Anand Baid

Try this Amit: stand with your feet slightly apart from each other, your body centrally balanced - now try moving your right leg a step ahead - what do you observe?

It is impossible to move without shifting your weight to your left leg - you move your hips first to make that shift and then your body is balanced to move your right leg ahead

Common sense, right? Cant believe I missed this. Common sense doesnt seem so common after all:rolleyes:

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-04-2007, 11:54 PM
Hi Amit!

You're working hard and you're improving! Good job with everything.... :applause:

Run Cycle: Always remember that a body is a single unit, and one part will affect the other! In the down position, when the legs hit the ground (there is an impact) and take all the weight, that impact should appear in his spine and head too. This is really important to show weight. I think you should add more weight to your animation. Right now it’s lacking weight and the head and the spine looks kinda separated from the rest of the body. I'm saying this because, the landing doesn't effect his spine and head. So, it doesn't look like a single unit. Well, you may say that I'm nitpicking your work. But I need to tell you what I think.
I'm not sure about your timing. It looks kinda slow to me! Well...maybe it’s just me...I don't know!

Here's one PAP doodle....I made this just to show you my point more clearly (it is moving too much! Thats okay. It's just to show you the shapes...so ignore it. Just look at the shape of the spine)
http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/runAction.gif

I hope this helps.

Weight lift: You're improving! Keep it up! I can't comment on everything, I wish I had time! Well, there are few things which I would like to mention now. I didn't mention them before because it makes more sense for this kinda animation. Making a weight lift animation (especially in cee gee!) is not an easy task. And you should try this kind of animation, if and only if you know your basic concepts, and you know how to apply them to any of your animations. I think you're lacking something important here! And that is, "ease in" and "ease out". It's really important!! When animating a bouncing ball, do you remember how improtant it is to ease in and out properly? If you don't do that properly especially in bouncing ball animations, you'll be caught quite easily! heheh.... Your mistakes are more apparent in bouncing balls! That's why new folks sometimes skip bouncing ball animations. They tend to hide their mistakes. Because they don't want to get caught by some other animator. You know, it's easy to see your mistakes in bouncing balls than in any other kinda animation....ummmm....maybe!!

So, ease in and out concepts are really important for not only bouncing ball animations but for any kinda animation! When you switch to spline, the computer gives you FREE eases! That’s nice, but don't rely too much on that! Right now, it looks like you're relying too much on them. And you're simply not paying enough attention to your actual eases. And everything seems to move linearly like a puppet.

I would suggest you to go back and work on some basic body mechanics (not weight lifting, it's not that basic!). Do this, pick up a ball ........look at it....and then put it back on the table! Simple isn't it? Try animating it! I'm sure you'll learn a lot doing this! It'll teach you the principles. And you'll learn how to apply those bouncing ball concepts (eases) into this kinda (body mechanics) animation. Analyze the motion! I would recommend you to take a video reference...Just video tape yourself and draw key poses on a piece of paper. Exaggerate the key poses. But not too much....Keep it in the believable zone. Now analyze HOW you're getting from pose A to B. This is really very important for your breakdowns!! Whenever you move OUT of a pose you ease OUT (slllloooww to fast!). And whenever you move INTO a pose, you ease IN (fast to sssssllllllow)! In few other kinds of motion where you overshoot the Key pose and then settle back in to it (e.g. punching or any quick and snappy motion).

Next, draw your primary breakdowns (exaggerate the poses! Don't be afraid!) and work hard on your arcs, favoring and overlaps.

Making simple and easy stuff will help you more to learn the basics and you'll learn how to apply them in any kind of animation! And don’t forget to clean up your animation! That’s really an important step!! If you do all this properly, your animation quality will improve dramatically……and you'll gain confidence!



I hope this helps. You're doing well! Keep working amit, good luck!

-A

Amit_S
02-05-2007, 03:56 AM
Oh man! Wow! Thnx amrit.
Screw the 'nitpicking'. I do want you point out my mistakes. If I was worried about nitpicking I wouldnt have asked for critiques online.

OK-1st of all: where do u learn all this??!!
Shit yaar! When you say this- it's all so basic. You know what my current level is. Will VTS help me or will it be trying to bite too much too soon? Dont bother recommending Langos personal trainer program. No money:sad: . But I think I can afford VTS. Would you recommend it at my level?

Run Cycle: Got your point perfectly! thnx for the Gif!

Weightlifting: Hmm...about the bouncing balls- I never did any:blush:
I did work on the graph editor but evidently missed quite a few things. I think I do understand what you are saying about ease in and ease out.

Ron too said something about my animations being too linear and had posted this gif:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/Linear.gif

but cant understand how I would apply it to this clip.

Oh man! Hope this doesnt sound too selfish. I just cant wait till whatever's grabbed your attention is finished. (I'm assuming you are busy with the cgcahr animation, right? Read your posts there). Anyways, whatever it is take your time, complete your stuff and all the best for it. Then when you have some free time plz plz do a breakdown of the weightlifting clip. From what you said I think I missed out quite a few points.

__________________________________________________________

For my next assignment I think I'll redo the Run cycle and do another Walk Cycle. And start playing with some balls too.
I'm thinking of maybe copying some AM ball assignments which are available on student blogs.

SirRon
02-05-2007, 06:30 AM
What Amrit said about ease in and ease out would go well with the .gif I showed you. Talking about the middle one, the left side shows an ease out, the right side is an ease in.

If you were to subscribe to the VTS, start from the beginning where all the mechanics of motion are.

I'd do the AM ball assignments, in fact I've been wanting to copy their assignments for some time. If I get the time I'd do them along with you and we can both learn :)

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Hi Amit!

Yes thats the spirit! Keep working on the basics ..... bouncing balls and stuff! It will help you a lot! And you'll really thank yourself for that!!

I'm glad this helped. Well, I've learned (actually I'm learning!!) all these concepts from Keith Lango and from the book Animator's Survival Kit. Yes , I would highly recommend you Keith's VTS! It doesn't matter in which level you are in right now. If you wanna learn animation....it's for you. But don't forget to get all the previous VTS. Of course, you'll have to pay for that, but they are all worth the money.

To be honest with you Amit, just forget everything. Forget that maya software, forget that graph editor and that trax editor, that blah, blah, blah, blahhh and all that technical sh*t. Indeed they are your friend in CG BUT......Butttttt, they won't help you much to learn what you call "animation". Just grab a pencil or a digital pen/tablet and start working on 2d, start drawing. Make simple 2d animation tests using PAP or Digicel Flipbook, Flash MX or any other software! Make some simple bouncing balls in 2d. Then make some character balls. This will improve your animation skills dramatically!! As you get better, keep increasing your level.....After doing all this, a point will come, where you'll be able to see the bridge between 2D and CG! And this is the point, where you can play with your artistic skills, experiment your concepts in CG and your animations will really look awesome....because you've got the foundation! Now you know, what you're doing! You'll look at animation from a totally different perspective. It's fun!!

Here's one animation I would like YOU to make .....A Bouncing Ball Cycle! Download it from here------> BOUNCING BALL CYCLE (a PAP animation)! (http://www.amritd.com/MyVideos/help/bounceCycle.mov)

There are few bouncing ball animations on my blog, they are not great….after all these are just my test animations, and I believe I can do it much better now! Heheh…I hope it helps!! Visit ----->


http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/05/my-recent-test-animations-animation.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mwpmxug_V8

This is a character ball animation I made for CG Tantra’s animation session (fortunately my animation was ranked at the top!)….yippieee! However, I could have done a lot better than this!). When you’re done with your basic bouncing ball animations, try this kind of animation, and try to tell a story using just simple bouncing balls. It will help you in everything!

http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/10/character-ball-finished.html


I would recommend you to watch Glen Keane's lecture. Just look at the great master!! He makes everything so much fun! Download it from ----> http://ia310913.us.archive.org/2/items/jtopfGlenKeaneLecture01/lect-GlenKeane01.mov

Thanks to Jonathan Topf for sharing this great video!



Remember this old saying….(well, it’s not old, I made this up just now! LOL…..) : “If you’re not having fun, you’re NOT animating… you’re simply fighting!”



So when you animate, have fun…..enjoy the moment and keephttp://blinko.buongiorno.us/prod/content/WP000000001_50x50.gif


Good luck!
-A

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-05-2007, 10:43 AM
Oh yeah....I forgot!
Do visit Jean Denis Haas's (an ILM animator) blog---> http://academyanimation.blogspot.com/

He has got some nice info on bouncing balls! So, don't miss it! He has also mentioned my name and my character ball tutorial in his post ----->

http://academyanimation.blogspot.com/2007/01/bouncing-ball-help.html

Thanks a lot Jean!

I hope this helps you Amit....Keep up the good work!
-A

jeandenis
02-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Hey Amrit!

thanks for the plug for my site! Same goes for Amrit's info, go check it out!

The Academy Blog is for the class that I'm teaching right now. I will try to update it daily with all kinds of stuff (except Monday, too much work and school at the same time, I'm home late :)).

And since I'm here, what about a shameless plug for www.swench.com. (http://www.swench.com)

If you like nerdy news, head over there for your daily fix. This site gets updated VERY frequently, so check out the archives for news that you might have missed.

Cheers
Jean-Denis

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-07-2007, 12:13 AM
Hey Jean-Denis!

Thank you very much! I visited your website (swench)....Great stuff! Now it's in my hit list! Cool :)

I also like your Academyanimation blog a lot.... it's very educational! You're discussing the very fundamentals, which I think is great! I think that some of the curious students like Amit, can get a lot from it.

Cheers!
-A

jeandenis
02-07-2007, 12:17 AM
Cool! Thanks a lot! Good to know that the site is helping. :thumbsup:

Amit_S
02-07-2007, 04:41 AM
Hey all!

I did not receive any mail from CGTak saying that someone had replied to my mail so I didnt check out the page.

Anyways....I've decided to do bouncing balls now.
I ran into this friend yesterday who's opened up his own animation studio and he's hired an animator to go through some bare basics. It was the 1st time I actually saw someone actually do a bouncing ball exercise. He was covering something about how every action should end in a cushion or a settle. (Ron would call that settle part as overshoot and settle)
It was nice -I enjoyed myself and understood some stuff even though he had already covered some material before I reached there.

SirRon][/color]I'd do the AM ball assignments, in fact I've been wanting to copy their assignments for some time. If I get the time I'd do them along with you and we can both learn :)


Hey Ron!

Very well...lets start.:thumbsup: It would be great if you too maintain a thread or a blog like this. So everyone can follow your progress and learn from your mistakes. I know at least I'll be following it.

What exactly should we start with? Lets start with what Amrit recommended- his PAP ani: http://www.amritd.com/MyVideos/help/bounceCycle.mov (http://www.amritd.com/MyVideos/help/bounceCycle.mov)

I’m afraid you’ll have to choose all the assignments on this one. I have gone through some of he AM stuff found on student blogs but don’t know what to do.
__________________________________________

Hye Amrit
Thnx for all the links and all. I downloaded your Charac ball ani just now- cool!

But don't forget to get all the previous VTS. Of course, you'll have to pay for that, but they are all worth the money.
I'll get this...but on the link you have of the charac ball:
http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/10/character-ball-finished.html
you say something like if you buy 1 VTS -u get all the previous ones for free:bounce:
Uh...I though you have to pay for it on a monthly basis..:shrug: Not sure I understand what you meant to say on your page.:D


To be honest with you Amit, just forget everything. Forget that maya software, forget that graph editor and that trax editor, that blah, blah, blah, blahhh and all that technical sh*t. Indeed they are your friend in CG BUT......Butttttt, they won't help you much to learn what you call "animation". Just grab a pencil or a digital pen/tablet and start working on 2d, start drawing. Make simple 2d animation tests using PAP or Digicel Flipbook, Flash MX or any other software! Make some simple bouncing balls in 2d. Then make some character balls. This will improve your animation skills dramatically!! As you get better, keep increasing your level.....After doing all this, a point will come, where you'll be able to see the bridge between 2D and CG!
About this point- I understand what you are trying to say perfectly but I I really havent tried any 2d ani packages so if I start using PAP or monkeyjam etc... I'll again end up concenrating on the technical stuff related to the software. I think I'll stick to Maya. I'll give PAP a try though...lets see......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mwpmxug_V8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mwpmxug_V8)

This link which you sent me- it does open up on youtube- but doesnt have any of your material on it, nothing to do with animation.


http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/05/...-animation.html (http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/05/...-animation.html)

And uh.....about this link- it does open up your page but cant get to the videos:sad:
Maybe I need to try later...............

Thnx for the Glenn Keane lecture clip. Its 195 mb!- Will have to wait till tonight to download it. I get max 4KBps:sad:

Thnx for the Jean Denis Haas link. I'm just scanning through it right now. It seems to have an entire set of lecture series! I see that he has already posted here.

“If you’re not having fun, you’re NOT animating… you’re simply fighting!”
Hey! Thats nice! Make that your signature line!
________________________________________________________

Hye Jean!
(Thats your first name,right? or is it Jean-Denis ?) Anyways, welcome to this thread. I cant go through all your stuff now- but you seem to have a lot of fundamental stuff on your board. Thnx! I believe I can use a lot of that stuff.

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-07-2007, 08:03 AM
Hey Amit!

No, I didn't say that the previous VTS vidos are for free! I said that, being a subscriber, you'll get access to all of them! Thats it! :)

2D animation software: Well, a software like PAP is very easy to learn! You don't have to be a "technical know how" to get the hang of it. Its not like Maya or Flash. You just have to spend an hour or two to get the hang of it. They even have tutorials and stuff too on their site. Learning PAP is a pice of cake! heheh... Its a very user friendly software! You can also get Jason Schleifer's Grease Pencil Script (http://www.jonhandhisdog.com/shh-life-er/?p=168)! You can draw directly in Maya. Well, its mainly for drawing/planning and doing some rough blocking in maya. But of course....you can also animate!! Its really great! I love it and I use it very often! You wanna learn grease pencil?? Go here----> http://www.jonhandhisdog.com/shh-life-er/?page_id=169

for a free video tutorial (you'll see jason's face! YEYY!!) Enjoy!!: http://jonhandhisdog.com/movies/js_greasePencil_movie.zip

I'm really sorry for the dead links...Thanks for pointing that out! ....Silly me!
Here you go, they should work now--------->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mwpmxug_V8

and http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/05/my-recent-test-animations-animation.html

I hope this helps!
See ya!
-A

Amit_S
02-08-2007, 11:58 AM
Hey Amrit! Thats too bad about Keiths VTS:sad: - but I guess he's worth it.

Anyways- heres my 1st Ball animation. I've tried applying things like cushion, static holds etc.
Ball bouncing in place:

1.Bouncing without squash and stretch:
01.BoncBallPlace.avi
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:137914


2.Bouncing with squash and stretch:
01.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.avi
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:137915

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-08-2007, 09:40 PM
The one without S&S----> Looks pretty good! Nice timing..... Good job dude....You've passed the test! By the way, why don't you make quicktime movies and upload it on yourfilelink or 4shared? Yeah, of course I can open your Vimeo file and then save it... then use the QT player to open your avi.... I Think it's too much of a hassle!
Do this (let this be a little tutorial for ya...hehe...just kidding!)----> Open up your playblast (an avi file) in the QuickTime player.....In your quicktime player, go to the "View" menu and then loop the animation. Now do nothing... just close the Quicktime player! It will ask to save the file...and it will save it in .mov format! Simple, isn't it? If you're having trouble with that, just use After Effects or Premiere to convert it into a Quicktime movie and upload it somewhere (4shared or yourfilelink). You know, quicktime movies are easy to scrub!

The one with S&S----> Your timing looks good..... But, I think you're having some problem with Squash and Stretch.
Why do we stretch the ball? To show the force of gravity?....Nope! Of course its related to that, but its not there to show any kinda force. Its just to show speed or to create a sense of speed...Okay?

Over here, you're stretching the ball too early, and then you're coming out of it too late! And it looks like jello. So you need to be careful with S&S! You're stretching the ball to its maximum at somewhere near the middle. And then in the contact drawing, you've reduced the stretch. This is not looking right! The maximum stretch should be in the contact drawing, because at that moment, the ball is at its maximum velocity (remember, you stretch to create a sense of speed!).
There is one extra drawing, between the squashed frame and the stratched launching frame. Its not making it any better! So, get rid of it. And add some settle into your squash....use two squased drawings. The first one " less squashed" and the second one "more squashed"....and then comes the streatched launching frame, where your ball will be stretched (maximum) and it'll be off the ground!

I made this 3d version (hope this helps...watch its every frame!): 3d Bouncing ball (maya) (http://www.amritd.com/MyVideos/help/bounceCycle_interpolation.mov)

Okay, because of this S&S problem, you'll have to redo this bounce cycle animation....Then only I'll pass your animation:deal:. So, you're not done with this, I would like to see an update! (I'm sorry if I'm being too picky! I need to tell you what I think is right! I hope you don't mind.) :)

later,
-A

Amit_S
02-09-2007, 01:13 PM
Hey Amrit! Thnx for the critique.
About the file type: yeesh! Everytime I check my ani I do it in a quicktime format. Just never though of saving it in that style. I've saved it in QT format now.
U dont have to download it now. Just click the download button and it'll show u looping ani.
I did sign up for a 4shared a/c- but had some problem uploading stuff...

Sense of speed: I understand ur point perfectly. Thnx.

Just 1 thing which is confusing me at the moment: Why would u want the ball to settle after its 1st squash? We would do that if we wanted to show the ball easing in the squash position. Or we might do this wihen we were bouncing a character ball.
But in a regualar ball -it will just hit the ground and squash and because of the force now inside it (force gathered while it was falling down) it'll bounce back with force.Shouldnt it just squash completely and then go up?
I'm confused :shrug:

At this point though I've just followed your advice on this and have done a settle squash after the initial squash.

Amit_S
02-09-2007, 01:17 PM
Bouncing ball in place update(after reading Amrit's critique)

02.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:138213

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-10-2007, 04:28 AM
Why would u want the ball to settle after its 1st squash? We would do that if we wanted to show the ball easing in the squash position. Or we might do this when we were bouncing a character ball.
But in a regular ball -it will just hit the ground and squash and because of the force now inside it (force gathered while it was falling down) it'll bounce back with force.Shouldn't it just squash completely and then go up?

Okay, I wanted you to add a settling frame in your squash. Its just because I think that it looks better that way. I can call it my experience. I've experimented a LOT with bouncing balls (spent months), I don't think there is anything that I haven't tried. Though I'm not an expert of this, and I believe that I'm still a horrible animator and I make billions of mistakes.... but I believe that I know what it takes to make a bouncing ball look good. I add one settle frame in there to make the impact more readable or else everything happens very quickly for our eyes..,, and it looks a like a flash! So, I just add that extra frame to make the impact look more prominent and if you make it come from the stretched drawing to a squashed drawing in just one single frame(without any settle), it will tend to look like a pop. So, its a good idea to add one settle....That's just what I think. If you don't like it, you're free to do it your way!
I hope this clears your doubt.

I looked at your animation, its looking good. However, I feel that you're stretching the ball too early and your ball is lacking weight. It looks like it is attached to a rubber band and moving up and down. Animate the forces, not shapes. Your squash and stretch should be felt more, than seen! Just don't stretch it that early. Let it gather some speed and keep stretching for not more than 2 (or maximum 3) drawings. And pay attention to your spacing.....I think your animation will look much better. Hope this helps! And again, I'm sorry for being too picky! I want your animation too look not just okay, but great!

Cheers!
-A

Amit_S
02-11-2007, 10:49 AM
Hye to everyone who's checking out this thread.

Hey Amrit
About ur last critiques:
1.The settle frame after initial squash- hmm...initially it did not make sense but after trying it a bit what you are saying does make a little sense. Without the settle frame the ball hardly looks like its touching the ground. Think I'll continue doing it this way.

2.The ball lacking weight and being attached to a rubber band: Yeah- I get this point too.

I'm trying man...but its just not happening. It still looks like its attached to a rubber band. It still could do with more weight. I did a lot of balls today. Here are just 2. Mind you, they are still not perfect. I'm not even sure whether I can say that they are an improvement.

03.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:138864

04.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:138865

SirRon
02-11-2007, 03:52 PM
Hey Amit sorry I haven't visited, been working on the animation challenge. It'll be easier if we could see a frame counter on these animations. Here's the one I use. Just copy and paste this into the C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents\maya\7.0\scripts folder with the file labeled userSetUp.mel


//ADDING FRAME COUNTER

headsUpDisplay
-section 8
-block 0
-blockSize "medium"
-dfs "large"
-ao 1
-l frame
-command "currentTime -q"
-atr
HUDFrameCount;

//ADDING FRAME COUNTER MENU ITEM

global string $gHeadsUpDisplayMenu;

menuItem
-parent $gHeadsUpDisplayMenu
-checkBox true
-label "Frame Counter"
-command "headsUpDisplay -e -vis #1 HUDFrameCount"
-annotation "Frame Counter: Toggle the display of frame counter";


I like your 03.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov better than the 04. The 04 stretches too much. But something they both have in common which I don't really like is how the ball does a big stretch between frames 6 and 7. I'd recommend having frame 6 be a little more stretched so it eases into the stretch more....Or.... have frame 7 less stretched.

If I get the time I'll do one tomorrow.

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-11-2007, 04:24 PM
http://www.amritd.com/Pix/help/bBallCycle.jpg

Watch the volume! You're simply over stretching the ball! Your first bouncing ball (the one without S&S) was looking pretty good. Why? Because there was no squash and stretch. So, your problem is Squash & Stretch! Just practice millions of times till you get it right. Now you can see clearly, how improtant it is to learn bouncing balls. If you miss this, you'll really miss something! No wonder in AnimationMentor, they devote weeks on just balls:bounce:!!

One more thing....I don't like the way it goes up. It stops too suddenly as if something is stopping it. It should look more natural.

Do this:
Give the ball some more frames/time to slow in. Don't decelerate that quickly! It looks unnatural.
And Increase the hangtime!!

I would like to see one of these in STEPPED mode. I wanna see your timing. So next time, don't interpolate.

It still looks like its attached to a rubber band.
Well, its just because you're stretching the ball too much. It looks like some external force (like from a rubberband) is deforming the ball! heheeh......

Itna S&S matt karo yaar! Issike kaaran ye dikkat ho rahi hai tumhein!

I hope this helps! Waiting to see an update!
-A

Amit_S
02-11-2007, 05:05 PM
I didnt know that u dont stretch it to this extent.:cry: :cry:

And I did another one before i read these critiques. And to think I was really proud about this one. I must've discarded 7-8 balls before I ended up with the one I'm posting now. And to think I stretched it too much again....balls balls everywhere :argh: .

Hye Ron!
Seeing u here after a long time. Chill bro! I know u r busy with the challenge. So is Darken. No probs. Do post your ball if u do one. Thnx for the script:thumbsup: I'll start using it from the next one. Thnx for ur critique man. I guess thats my biggest problem now. Just didnt know u r not supposed to stretch it that much.

Hey Amrit!
Thnx for this again. I get all your points. Will work on another one. I'm going to post one now cause I figure as long as I've done it and uploaded it I might as well post a link.
As far as this is concerned I think that the decelaration problem which u mentioned is not in this one. I actually took a sketch pen and marked the spacing on the monitor. Thnx for the suggestion. Rook jao boss! Thodi der mein aur ek upload karto hoon!

Update:
I made this before I read Ron and Amrit's critique.
Plz do not critique this one. I made the same mistak of stretching the ball into a 'hotdog' :D

05.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:138962

Amit_S
02-11-2007, 06:39 PM
Heres the update. The squash and stretch are more controlled here.
06.BoncBallPlace_SquashnStretch.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:138992

(thnx for the counter frame Ron. it works perfectly.)

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-11-2007, 07:13 PM
Very nice! I can see you improving!! It looks almost perfect.....If you want you can add one settle in squash frame, other than that its looking good. But if you don't want that, then you can just proceed to hard and soft ball animation.
You can use my animation as a reference........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWvCnHGGRIE
Well, of course its not a good animation... but I hope it helps you to get an idea.

Keep working, you're doing well!:thumbsup:

-A

SirRon
02-12-2007, 04:12 AM
I agree with Amrit about adding another frame for the contact. Like I said in my comment on your Vimeo, this is a great improvement. And thanks for exposing me to Vimeo, I like it a lot better than YouTube because you can share the original format and show it through flash too. I'm starting to use it to show my animations too :)

Amit_S
02-12-2007, 04:49 AM
Whew! At last.:)

About the extra squash frame: Jeez- i did say that I'm going to use it but it totally slipped my mind with all that timing and spacing thing. I'll use it from the next one.

Amrit: Yeah man- I've already seen that from your site. Thnx for all that ref material on your site! Will get onto a hard-soft ball now.

Ron: Welcome to Vimeo! Saw ur comment. Thnx!

Amit_S
02-12-2007, 10:20 AM
I'm getting confused about bouncing balls when the height goes down gradually.

According to physics:
1.speed of ball going up= speed of ball going down (?)
2.As height decreases gradually, timing increases(?)

Are the above statements true or false? The 2nd point is really confusing me. Shouldnt timing decrease as the height decreases?

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-12-2007, 01:45 PM
Hey there!

I've been a student of mathematics and physics, so I think I can help you with this.

1.speed of ball going up= speed of ball going down (?)

No....Not necessarily! Speed of the ball going up will NOT be equal to speed of the ball going down. Unless and untill there is a perfectly elastic collision where all the potential energy converts itself into kinetic engergy. In the real world, there is no such thing as perfectly elastic collision. Every collision in this world is termed as an "Inelastic collision", where some of the potential energy gets dissipated in the form of heat due to friction. So the kinetic energy will be reduced to some extent. Remember, that the kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2 (m is the mass and v is the velocity). And in classical physics, everything in this equation is a CONSTANT except v (velocity). So, if the kinetic energy gets reduced, that means there has been some loss in velocity. Hence, the velocity will not be equal and will get reduced after every inelastic collision. So, the oscillation will be a damped one. I hope it makes sense to you.

2.As height decreases gradually, timing increases(?) Shouldnt timing decrease as the height decreases?

Why?? Are you changing the force of gravity? I don't think so. Remember that it doesn't matter how high your ball is from the ground, if you're stopping the ball for 2 frames at the top (say, height = 6 m),you will do this for any height (100 m, 80m, 2m or 1m). Well, you might ask that, if the ball is going away from the earth, doesn't the force of gravity reduce for the ball? Yeah it will, but it will be negligible. Even if you take the ball outside the atmosphere the force of gravity will hardly change no matter what!!

So don't worry about your timing. It will not change due to height!

I hope this clears your doubts!
-A

jeandenis
02-13-2007, 07:06 AM
Yes, first name is Jean-Denis. :)

Amit_S
02-13-2007, 07:26 AM
Hey Amrit! Thnx for the Physics lesson:thumbsup:
I get it now.
___________
Hye Jean-Denis:)
Have been visiting your academy animation site. Keep it up man!
But your swench site does not open- I always get page not found. Ditto for jeandenis.net (http://www.jeandenis.net/)

Amit_S
02-13-2007, 10:56 AM
Update:

Heavy v/s Bouncing ball:
01.HeavyLightBall.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:139710

Amit_S
02-13-2007, 10:57 AM
Update:

Bouncing ball which moves:
01.BounceandMove.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:139729

About the 2nd settle squash after the initial squash. I used it- but for some reason it was looking like the ball is literally sticking to the ground and then jumping by its own will power (like a character ball). hence I did not use a settle frame after the squash.

Amit_S
02-14-2007, 09:54 AM
Update:

A bouncing ball which hits a wall and bounces again. I'm calling this wall as Wall A.

01.BallHittingWallA.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:140192

When the ball hits the wall -I'm holding that contact position for 2 frames. Cause with 1 frame it hardly looked like it was touching the wall.

SirRon
02-14-2007, 04:39 PM
Hey Amit. Great bouncing ball studies. I think your 'light' balls are bouncing a little bit too much. Well the next type of bouncing ball I guess would be the obstacle course. Keep animating :)

Amit_S
02-16-2007, 04:20 AM
Hey Ron. Thnx. I'll look into the light balls again.
Obstacle course- hmm... u mean multiple walls?
And jeez- I just want to take a little break from the balls- balls balls everywhere- man...after a while u expect evrything u see to start bouncing:argh:
___________________________________

From Amrit:
I guess he'll be offering his critiques later. But in the meanwhile this is what he told me-
Heavy-Light Balls: When the light ball touches the ground its moving in the positive X axis a little too much. Its from frame 120-146. It should be very subtle- right now it kindda looks like its floating in the air.

_____________________________________

Some other critiques:
Well as I mentioned theres this animator who teaches in my friends class who checked out my work. This is what he said-
1.Its falling down and bouncing up a little too fast. Esp the frame just before the ball touches the ground and the one following it. With the speed at which it bounces up -the ball should go much higher.
If I want the ball to go to the height I've put it in- then it should fall and bounce up just a little slower.

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/BallBounceHeightproblem.jpg

In this - frame 28 is when it hits the ground .
Frame 27 is the frame just before is and frame 29 the bounce. So if it does fall down at frame 27 and the 1st bounce is at the height if frame 29 the ball will go upto the place I've marked. If I want the ball to go to the height I've marked then frames 27-28-29 should be a little closer.
(P.S.: The position where I've marked the ball is not exactly where he said my ball should be- thats he general area.)

2.The Trajectory/path of the ball:
Look at the above trajectory. It shouldnt be like that- it doesnt look natural.
It should be like this:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/Trajectory.jpg


The area I've circled- thats generally how the trajectory should be.
(P.S.-Plz ignore the timing and spacing on this picture.)

Amit_S
02-16-2007, 08:36 PM
Update:

Something like a Pool game with 1 ball and no holes.
01.PoolSingleBall.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:141337

jeandenis
02-16-2007, 10:16 PM
Yep, sorry about that. I'm switching webhosts and need to fix and transfer lots of stuff. Blogger is also giving me crap (their customer service really sucks, they never write back), so in the meantime you'll have to go to www.swench.blogspot.com (http://www.swench.blogspot.com) for my news site. Hopefully everything will be up and running soon.

Sorry for the hassle! And thanks for the kind words! Cheers!

SandeepMaithani
02-17-2007, 06:59 AM
Hi Amit...

I've been watching this thread for some time now and its great.....i loved the way u have been so consistent with ur efforts....thought of dropping in something which we teach at our place.I'm sure that will help u ...

This is a light ball bouncing against a wall....

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:141592


This one is a bit heavy....

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:141591

U can watch this too...just for fun

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:140276

uploaded max files so that u can study the curves.......

let me know if u need something more...

cheers

sandy

Amit_S
02-17-2007, 11:23 AM
Hye Sandy! Hey man- Thnx for checking this out and your videos! :thumbsup:

Your light ball does seem light and your heavy ball does seem heavy.
My max is not working at the moment -but thnx for that too. I'll look into it. Looking at your curves will definitely help me.

I had seen your Biped Stick fight scenes a few times before on your thread. To be honest-I couldnt understand the story :shrug:
I havent read all the stuff on your thread- at my level its only going to bog me down.:D

You mentioned that you teach this at your place...? Where do you teach?


let me know if u need something more...

cheers

sandy
Hmm... now thats a tempting question....:drool:
Well...if you dont mind could you plz check out my weightlifting clip:

03DTWeightLiftingFront:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:135953 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:135953)

03DTWeightLiftingSide:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136209 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136209)

03DTWeightLiftingPers:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136215 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:136215)

Amrit says that there are still some performance issues like slow in -slow out, settling etc....
The only thing I noticed is that when he is lifting the bar for his successful lift- I could've used more settling. What improvements would you suggest?

Anyways- if u cant check out all that stuff- no problems. Just drop in whenever you can and post your critiques.

(By the way- I can see you are still on the thread as I'm typing this....)

SandeepMaithani
02-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Hey Amit

I've just sent u a PM.
As for the weight lifting clip...it still looks like a block out...Amrit is right in what he said....there's a lot u need to do in this..
If u see the right hand when it reaches the bar..study that movement and think how would u do this!!how wud ur hand reach that bar if u were to lift that weight...it just goes like a robotic limb....stays in air for a while and then goes for the hold....there's a flow when u do an action...understand the force which drives the action as the whole body is going to react to that...transformation around the force area will be highest and will die down as it travels farther....theres a lot to write but beyond this u need to act it out nsd pay attention to smallest of the details......U'll get most of the answeres...

Hope this helps

Cheers

sandy

Amit_S
02-18-2007, 01:24 PM
Hey Sandy.
About r critique: OK- got that- hand shouldnt hang in that position - it should be nearer to the body....and not hang like that.

About what u say about a force driving all the actions- I kindda get it...but its still a little hazy. I guess I'll jjust have to do it 1 step at a time. More bouncing balls then....

About the Max file- I couldnt open it:sad:
It gives me a Dll error.
I have Max 6. What version of max is that file in?

By the way- Grt Website:thumbsup:
Theres not a lot- but whatever is there -is awesome!

Everyone else- Plz visit
http://www.star-animations.com/sforum/

Theres this grt thread on posing and another one on contrast:
http://www.star-animations.com/sforum/viewtopic.php?id=6&t_id=2
I'm going through the contrast one right now- it shows how contrast plays a part, how mini contrasts paly in part in a static pose etc etc- awesome!
Check it out guys!

Amit_S
02-19-2007, 09:52 AM
Update:Another bouncing ball.
Progressive bounce no. 3:

03.BounceandMove.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:142550

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Good job with the ball animation! You may now move on to "self jump bouncing ball"!! You're doing good! Keep it up.:scream:

-A

Amit_S
02-19-2007, 03:35 PM
Update: Heavy Iron ball v/s bouncing ball v/s balloon.

Iron_Bouncing_Balloon:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:142638

I'm not too sure about the balloon.

_________________________
Hey Amrit!
Will get to the character ball soon.
Your tut should help.

Amit_S
02-20-2007, 06:30 AM
Update:
Bouncing ball hitting Wall.
This time-the ball is thrown on the wall.

02.BallHittingWall.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:143080

SirRon
02-20-2007, 07:12 AM
Hey Amit,
You're doing a great job with these, hope you're learning a lot. I'm actually a little jealous because I didn't do enough of these. And now that I'm done with the animation challenge I have some other artwork commitments so I'll have to hold off a little longer to join you.

I'm still not convinced with the balls rolling at the end. You have to realize that the reason why a ball would do that is because of the imperfections of the ground or even on the ball. Like little bumps or just a very slight change of angle of the ground. I can understand why the ball rolls after it stops bouncing but those imperfections that's causing the ball to roll will also affect the bounce too. Right now you have them bounce straight up and down (perfectly smooth and level ground) but then it rolls indicating the ground is not smooth and/or level.

Same thing for your pool table exercise, at the end the ball slowly curves which means there's a bump on the table (I wouldn't want to play on that pool table :D). But if it was a professional pool table the ball would keep going straight and then stop.

You know.... I could see myself doing the same kind of thing you're doing. But actually seeing someone else do it opens my eyes in a way. So keep up the good work, I'm learning too. At this rate in a couple of weeks or months see if you can look at someone else learning animation too and help them with their mistakes. But be humble and only help with what you know :)

Oh, and take a look at the finished animation challenge thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=464242). I think there's a great range of skills of animators there to see.

Amit_S
02-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Update:
Pool with 2 balls. My last pool clip had 1 big mistake in that the ball slows down too gradually and then stops. thats not hw it happens on a real table

02.Pool2Balls.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:143145

_________________

Hye Ron!
Sorry about this- but I'm in a bit of a hurry. I'll read ur critique and reply back later. Thnx for it though. Bye!

Amit_S
02-20-2007, 09:11 PM
Hey Ron!:wavey:
Hee! hee! I am learning a lot- mostly physics and stuff- trajectories, timing, spacing- but to tell you the truth I still am a little blank on how I can apply all this work to bipeds. But I'm trusting all the grt teachers here.
Jealous eh? man! you have no idea how good it feels when someone of your level says he is jealous of me!:cool:

Dont worry- you can start whenever you have the time. Glad to read that looking at my work is helping you. What made me start maintaining this thread is weakchild/Albert and Jariullahs threads. Reading their stuff really helped me a lot so I decided to do the same. Hopefully some other beginners are going through this and find at least some part of this stuff revelant.About helping others- yeah- I tried that a few times esp with walk cycles. In some cases it was really dumb. I was trying to help people who were way out of my
league!:argh:

Thnx for the critique. Yes- I completely missed that point. It really shouldnt roll that much sideways. And yeah- missed that pool table point too. But I'm improving slowly......

About the ani challenge- I used to often check out ur clips whenever i was on vimeo trying to upload my stuff. Will go the page and check it out now.

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-21-2007, 08:09 AM
Hey there Amit!

So, you're not sure how to apply these concepts to bipeds right? First of all, ask yourself....What the heck are you learning while doing bouncing balls? Nothing? I don't think so....umm...errr...You must be learning a lot about breakdowns, ease in/out and a lot more (or basic mechanics). You'll always apply these concepts into your 'humanoid/biped' type characters. These are few stuff which most of the noobs don't apply or don't care to show them into their work. And the result is always a crap.
So, don't worry. Whenever I'll see that you're all set to work on biped/human type characters, I'll give you some simple acting and body mechanics exercise... and I'll try my best to help youwith it. So, keep going, you're doing great!.... "Apna kaam karrte raho yaar....ye matt socho ki isse kya hoga usse kya hoga....bass jo karr rahe ho, billkul sahi karr rahe ho, aur usse karrte jao...results khud ba khud oopar waala de hi deta hai, aur abb jo bhi hoga bahut achcha hoga, iss baat ka wishwaas rakkho aur jalldi baazi nahi karo!"

Regarding your "bouncing ball with wall as an obstacle" animation:

I'm not too happy with it (honestly speaking). First of all.....I'm noticing that you're avoiding squash and stretch in most of your animations....and you're making some good "golf ball" type bounce....I'm not saying you're doing bad....I think you're doing GREAT....but I beleive that your weakness lies in squah and stretch. So, don't run away from them.....Add some S&S into this animation!! S&S helps a lot to learn many concepts. I'm not gonna tell you what it does and how it helps you...I'll just leave that to you to figure out.

Add some more bounce, before it hits the wall....one bounce is just not enough...I wanna see more!

At the end, the ball goes out of the screen......Avoid that! Since this is one animation where you're showing your mechanical skills....its not so good to move it out of the screen. You're simply hiding the part where the ball stops completely. .... you're hiding the part where you've to slow-in and stop!! I wanna see how you stop the ball!! :eek:

I hope this helps....good luck with everything!
-A

Amit_S
02-21-2007, 03:23 PM
Hye Amrit!
Slow in and slow out to bipeds...hmm...I think I'm beginning to get it.
About Breakdowns- well.....how is applying breakdowns to balls going to help me with bipeds? U know what- dont bother answering this question.... I'll keep doing all this basic stuff- when I'm ready just dump all your stuff on me. Hee!hee!

Ball on Wall:
Ok- no more out of screen animations. I'll do complete settles.
Squash and stretch: regarding squash and stretch- OK- I'll start working on them too.

Squash and stretch on bipeds: Well- this is what I think it is-
1.Tex Avery kindda characters: If its a hyper cartoonistic character then I can literally apply the squash/stretch principle by changing the size of the trunk/limbs. When its falling down or just going up- elongate/stretch it. When it hits the ground- squash it at the moment of impact.
2.Realistic character- If its a hyper realistic character like Gollum/ Kong or even something like Shrek then this is how I think u should apply it:
When it hits the ground at the moment of impact- make the character curl its body down.
When its going up throw out the hands and he legs to 'stretch' it out.
So my grt guruji -did I answer this correctly?

Its just that my progress is soooo slow...I'm itching to do some stuff like jumping, pushing, kicking...:argh:

I think I'm going to start doing some poses now.

Amit_S
02-21-2007, 03:30 PM
Update:
03.Pool2Balls.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:143642

In my last pool clip both the balls slowed down too fast.

SandeepMaithani
02-22-2007, 07:11 AM
Hi Amit......
While doing squash and stretch...retain the volume...never NU scale it...i mean if the ball is stretching upwards...it has to be sideays as well...or else u'll just fill it with air!!

As for applying principles to ur biped...what amrit said is right....add to that......shoot the thing and observe carefully......try to do some roto work and build on that...exaggerate it from there....say for example u do a realistic pose...Ok...now exaggerate it...it will be beyond the realistic limits now...just chk if the biped is balanced...chk for the staging....contrast in the pose..etc...etc.....so when u transform ur realistic poses into exaggerated poses right...get into inbetweens.....chk for ease in and EO....lead n follow...etc....and see if the animation is coming out nice with these principles taken care of.....its a slow tedious process....ur question is very important as knowing somthin and implementing it are different ballgames alltogether.....but u have to know it to implement ..right!!
Take it easy on u and go step by step...slowly...u need a clean canvas to paint on it...get out of all the worries and keep doing it...

Good luck

Sandy

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-22-2007, 07:39 AM
Hey Amit!

I asked you to play with stretch & squash, as it will help you with your animation skills....it kinda helps you learn the mechanics (especially when you make "character balls"). I'm not talking about adding S&S in character rigs. And I'm not asking you to guess anything....just keep working consistantly, and everything will start to make more sense to you.:)

-A
EDIT: Hey Sandeep! He is Amit, not amrit! heh:D ..never mind, thats okay! Cheers!!

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-22-2007, 10:08 PM
Yup! I totally agree with Sandeep.....
You're doing great man.....keep working, you're coming along nicely, and you've improved a lot....Just go back and see your previous work and compare it with your current work....Improvement!! Right? Just keep doing things consistantly.....thats all!

Good luck!:thumbsup:
-A

Amit_S
02-23-2007, 06:19 AM
Hye guys!

Amrit- yeah man- know that my work has improved. I'm sticking to what I'm doing right. Improving steadily..will post all my work with squash/stretch now.thnx:thumbsup:

Sandy:thnx for this. I get what u mean by retaining the volume of the body.
But as far as moving bipeds is concerned I dont think I'm doing that right now. I'm going to stick to balls and maybe posing right now.
Posing- the thread on star-ani is grt! I'm downloading d_j's pose movie from vimeo right now.
and thnx for your short work description- sounds so logical when u read it.....and tedious as hell when u get down to doing it!
But then as Richard Williams said-"ani is nothing but work. If u dont want to work...then what r u doing in this field..?"

Amit_S
02-23-2007, 08:34 AM
Update: Iron v/s bouncing ball
I've corrected the bouncing ball- the last few bounces to be precise as Sandy suggested. I also get rid of the balloon cause I really was'nt sure about what I was doing. I'll wait till I get a reference for this and then do the balloon again.

03.HeavyLightBall__Bouncing_Iron.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:144506 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:144506)

Squash and stretch: Amrit- havent done the S/s again. I didnt redo the whole thing- just corrected the last few bounces as Sandy suggested. Will get into S/s with my next new bounce.

Amit_S
02-23-2007, 09:06 AM
I was just thinking about the Physics part again.

Bouncing balls:
In bounces which take place in the same place:
1.At the maximum height of the ball it has zero velocity.
2.When its falling down -just about to hit the ground -it has maximum velocity.
3.As it keeps falling the height the ball goes to keeps decreasing. The height keeps decreasing cause the energy goes on decreasing. If the energy hadnt decreased then the ball would gone up to the same height each and every time.
4.As the height decreses the time the ball takes to hit the ground will also decrease.
So as the bounces progress and the height decreases- the bounces should get relatively faster, right?
(When I say relatively I mean the speed of the bounce relative to its height)
6.As the energy of the ball is also being reduced the ball will actually get slower. I mean when u compare the overlapping of the last bouce to the 1st bouce- the ball wil overlap more in the last bouce and hence its kindda slower than the 1st.

7.Speed of ball falling down is equal to the speed going up- but that would be in an ideal situation (which is like the ideal fuel- doesnt exist). For a deeper explanation on this I'll just paste Amrits comment's from page 09.
"Speed of the ball going up will NOT be equal to speed of the ball going down. Unless and untill there is a perfectly elastic collision where all the potential energy converts itself into kinetic engergy. In the real world, there is no such thing as perfectly elastic collision. Every collision in this world is termed as an "Inelastic collision", where some of the potential energy gets dissipated in the form of heat due to friction. So the kinetic energy will be reduced to some extent. Remember, that the kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2 (m is the mass and v is the velocity). And in classical physics, everything in this equation is a CONSTANT except v (velocity). So, if the kinetic energy gets reduced, that means there has been some loss in velocity. Hence, the velocity will not be equal and will get reduced after every inelastic collision. So, the oscillation will be a damped one. I hope it makes sense to you."



And all these rules also apply to Progressive bounces, right?

Curves/Trajectory of the ball
According to the drawings in the Survival Kit the spacing is something like this. This is what I used to generally do:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/BallBounceHeightproblem.jpg
But someon said that the trajectory should be something like what I've done below- so thats what I'm doing right now:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/Trajectory.jpg


So which one is right? As I said the bounces in the Survival Kit have a trajectory more similar to the 1st one. But quite a few people prefer the second one to the 1st.

Sandeep: A request for u:That bouncing ball file which u uploaded- I cant open it in Max 6. what version did u use? I have Maya7 and have access to Max 6. Any files which I can check out? I want to study the curves.
In fact- this request is for everyone- do u mind posting ur bouncing ball files or maybe just upload a picture of the curves?

Amrit-Derhgawen
02-23-2007, 12:12 PM
And all these rules also apply to Progressive bounces, right?

Yes! If your ball is in this real world, then all of these rules apply, they are universal.

But someon said that the trajectory should be something like what I've done below- so thats what I'm doing right now:
So which one is right? As I said the bounces in the Survival Kit have a trajectory more similar to the 1st one. But quite a few people prefer the second one to the 1st.

I don't know man!! Look, I've done a lot of bouncing ball tests (mayby over 100...umm..yeah!:rolleyes: I love it baby!!)....And there is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' (especially in animation)! Believe me... I don't know who told you this, but I don't see much of a difference in your first and second picture (yeah, the first one looks a bit different, but thats not gonna make something right or wrong!). This is all about making good arcs which should satisfy your/our eyes.
In animation, instead of asking this: Hey!! Is this right? or wrong? Is it correct or not correct?...blah blah....
Ask this: Hey!! How does it look?? Does it look good? Is it distracting?/Is something distracting you? Is it looking good to your eyes? Is it working??

This will make more sense. So, don't go for right or wrong here. If a trajectory looks good to you and to other people.....stick to it....this is your perfect trajectory for that perticular animation!

Hope this helps you a bit.
Cheers!
-A

SirRon
02-23-2007, 10:12 PM
Hey guys! Victor Navone just put up this tutorial on splines (http://www.navone.org/HTML/Tutorial_Splines1.htm). Hopefully it might shed some light for you Amit and maybe all of us.

I really agree about Amrit saying all that matters is how good it looks. I believe understanding how 'correct' it is helps with how 'good' it looks. But don't stress too much on the physics, otherwise you might as well turn on the dynamics :D

Personally, I like the arcs on the 2nd image better. Though I disagree with the 1st image being like the William's book, in the book the arcs are slightly more pointed than the arcs in that picture.

Jealous eh? man! you have no idea how good it feels when someone of your level says he is jealous of me!
And you have no idea how good it feels for someone to say 'someone of your level' like I'm a good animator :)

Amit_S
02-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Update:
Its the Iron ball v/s bouncing ball again. I've again increased the speed of the last few bounces. Also changed the height just a wee bit. There might still be a few mistakes in this- I havent read the tut posted above by SirRon. This was done before I read the above reply.
04.HeavyLightBall__Bouncing_Iron:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:144973 (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:144973)

Amit_S
02-24-2007, 09:27 AM
Hye Ron- wow! Thnx for the tut. I'll go through it later. Looks like this was just what I needed!
You are right about concentrating a little too much on the Physics part. I really should concentrate more on giving the ball a life than be bogged down so much by technical stuff. As u said-thats what they have Dynamics for.:D

Even in the Survival Kit- Williams is concentrating more on his art rather than Physics. For eg- the equation about the speed of the ball going up= speed going down......in The Sur. Kit he has not at all concentrated on this. Still I dont think he's ever going to have problem with balls:)
So from now on I'm not going to be so picky about Physics but concentrate more on art.


And you have no idea how good it feels for someone to say 'someone of your level' like I'm a good animator
Welcome dude:)
But seriously- u r a good animator. I wont say u are at present Lango or Navone- but from what I've seen of your work- u really are good. I'm still hoping that you complete that project of urs- Stranded in desert...


________________________________________



I don't know man!! Look, I've done a lot of bouncing ball tests (mayby over 100...umm..yeah!:rolleyes: I love it baby!!)....And there is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' (especially in animation)! Believe me... I don't know who told you this, but I don't see much of a difference in your first and second picture (yeah, the first one looks a bit different, but thats not gonna make something right or wrong!). This is all about making good arcs which should satisfy your/our eyes.
In animation, instead of asking this: Hey!! Is this right? or wrong? Is it correct or not correct?...blah blah....
Ask this: Hey!! How does it look?? Does it look good? Is it distracting?/Is something distracting you? Is it looking good to your eyes? Is it working??

This will make more sense. So, don't go for right or wrong here. If a trajectory looks good to you and to other people.....stick to it....this is your perfect trajectory for that perticular animation!



Yeah boss. I get it perfectly:thumbsup: .
As Ron said- just use Dynamics if u r so concerned about Physics.:D

Amit_S
02-27-2007, 10:51 AM
Couldnt do anything for 2 days:sad:
Anyways..

Update:
My 1st attempt at character ball. Its a single bounce/jump.
01.CharacBall_SingleBounce.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:146593

I thing I think I'll change one thing in the above. After the anticipation/squash when I have him jump/stretch I'm holding him on the ground for the very 1st frame of his jump. I think I'll put him in the air for that frame. Will do that and upload it tonight.

Amit_S
02-28-2007, 01:48 PM
Update:
A character ball doing multiple jumps on elevated surfaces.
Frankly, it sucks. It looks like its a block out. I couldnt get that subtle motion you get when a boucing ball is settling down.....
Can I make a character ball settle like that?

Also I need to work more on the timing.

01.CharacBall_MultipleBounces.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:147077

SirRon
02-28-2007, 06:42 PM
I think that kind of settle is fine. That does give it some character. But don't make it too strong otherwise it would be distracting I think.

Ok, here's a ball animation I did a year ago. I know I can do better now, but I just thought I'd show you and maybe it'll give you some ideas. Still has mistakes :blush:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:147186

My crit on your ball characters.
Lift the ball of the ground on the frame the ball jumps. This also applies to other objects bouncing off the ground, not only the character ball.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/BallBounceTip01.jpg

Since the ball is living, it has more purpose when it jumps and comes down. It's jumping because it wants to jump. So animate it as it was pushing or being pulled to a location. I forgot where I learned this (maybe Keith Lango) but when you're animating, think of animating a force. One that is controlling itself or a force affecting something else. Especially for characters.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/BallBounceTip02.jpg

I think it looks blocked out because there's not enough inbetweens. Maybe add a frame or two between jumps.

You're getting better, I can really see that. :)

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Nooo! This is not working properly Amit. Not at all....Sorry to be harsh man!....but I need to tell you what I think. I totally agree with Ronan's views.....
Amit, I think you need to read my Character Ball tutorial (http://amritd.blogspot.com/2006/10/character-ball-tutorial_01.html) if you haven't done so already. And make a simple "single hop". Just follow my tut and I'm pretty sure it will help you a lot. Right now, you're simply "animating" the ball....not its forces. And its looking kinda strange. In short, the ball doesn't look alive. Remember this is not a "dead" bouncing ball. Its a character ball....And he is alive!! And he thinks before he jumps....he puts some effort in his every jump! So you need to show all that.
And why aren't you using the ball I gave you? I really don't like the S&S shape of this ball. I just don't like its deformations. Hope to see an update from you!:thumbsup:

Cheers!
-A

Amit_S
03-01-2007, 06:30 PM
Update:

(I did this before I read Rons and amrits critiques)

01.CharacBall_MultipleBounces_2ndattempt:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:147697

By the way- there are still a few mistakes in this which I noticed- esp the last few jumps. I'm already working on a revised version. Will post it tomorrow. I just wanted to post my update since what I've done now seems completely different from my 1st attempt- although its the same file.
_____________

Hye Ron!
Cute short- I think I'll copy it- only I'll make it better:twisted: :twisted: :cool:
I understand your point about the 'stronger bounce'....dont know how I missed it. Even in the Survival Kit -Richard Williams has covered that. I completely missed the point about it being alive, having a purpose.

You'll find that my update is completely different from what i posted. The problem was I just couldnt understand what to do, what not to do.
And yes.."animating forces"- thats from Keith lango.

It looked blocked beacuse as you said- not enough keys. Also I hadnt done any eases, and i was just animating the shape- not forces. Big mistake- wont repeat it.

Thnx for Jpegs! It always makes it easierto understand.

_________

Hye Amrit!
No problem with being harsh man....it did suck like hell!
But as i told Ron -I was just confused- didnt know how to go about doing it.
Brain Fart I guess:argh:

Hopefully you'll like the update much better. And again....this is not the final output. The last few bounces are completely wrong. I know what to do now....and will be doing it soon. Will post my next update tomorrow.
Yup- I've read your tut. But wont hurt to do it again i guess.

You rig...oh man- completely forgot about it! OK- will use it from my next animation.

By the way...plz check your mail...

Amit_S
03-02-2007, 04:07 PM
Update:
01.CharacBall_MultipleBounces_3rdattempt.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:148122


I'm kind of satisfied with what I've done. My only problem is with the sliding portion. When it slides to change position, then overshoots and then settles- this is the best I could think of right now. How can I improve on this part?

01.CharacBall_MultipleBounces_3rdattempt_overshoot.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:148113

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-02-2007, 11:37 PM
Hi Amit!

Nope! This again isn't working. You may think that I'm nitpicking your work...but believe me I'm just saying what I feel correct. First of all get rid of that fancy slide and overshoot thing, its really not working properly. And your last jump/hop is just not looking correct, maybe some arc and breakdown problem.
Look man, you're missing somewhere. And thats your basic concept of a character ball hop. You're trying out this kind of reletively complex animation with a character ball and a lot of obstacles.... without working on simple character ball jumps/hops. You're getting ahead of yourself. First of all, you need to learn different kinds of hops like sad/happy hop. You'll have make that on simple flat ground. After you've done all that, then you can come back to this. Well, I think there is no easy way to make better stuff. Just work like hell!! Good luck man! I can see you improving but I need to tell you the right path you know.

Keep working and see ya later!
-A

Amit_S
03-03-2007, 05:33 AM
Hye Amrit!
Thnx for this.Yeesh! Dont worry about 'nit-picking'. Just say what u think is right.

Ok- I'll get rid of the overshoot and settle then. I'll just reserve that kind of stuff to bigger surface areas.
I'll also look in the last ball hop.
About the character: I get you point. Do you know of any good resources which covers how to convey emotions via a simple sphere? Honestly- this is something I know nothing about.I'll look around the net for any of this stuff. If u have some links- plz post them.

Just 1 thing: Do I have to convey emotion during a ball hop? Cant we just make a Vanilla hop?...u know what I mean...emotionless.

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-03-2007, 06:50 AM
Vanilla hop? Of course you can make one.... And I think thats what you're doing right now. Aren't you? But I think you need to practice some hops/jumps which looks sad/happy(excited). And it will add more life to your stuff..and afterall, thats what you want...right?
I wanted to write one tutorial on this stuff but I couldn't ...I didn't get time.

I'll tell you something in brief about chracter jumps:-

Watch Pixar's shortfilm 'Boundin'. There is one character named Giant Jackalope.... who brings sunshine and optimism wherever he bounds. Just look at the way he jumps/hops. You'll observe that he spends most of his time in the air and very less on the ground. Remember that this is an optimistic character.....a positive guy. He is full of life. He jumps STRONGLY and stays off the ground for a long time and touches the ground for just a fraction of a second and then jumps up again. Staying off the ground is not a rule, but it kinda helps to create a sense of happiness and positivity in the character.

This is all about timing! You hold the character up in the air for a bit longer than usual and stay on the ground for just a single frame....or whatever....depends!
It'll be like-
BOINK-----in air!----------BOINK--------in air!-----------BOINK-----------in air!-------------

This will help you to create a sense of positivity in the character.

If you wanna make a sad hop/jump, then you might wanna spend some more time on the ground and less in the air. The character will look sad and not that happy....there should be a sense of lack of energy. The character will have hard time jumping or moving around....And it'll be like-
BLLOBB--------on ground--------BLOB----------on ground--------------BBBBBLLLLOBBBB----------on ground---------

I hope you get all this. Remember that these are NOT rules!! This is just how I like to think and it helps me a lot. This is all timing stuff.....You need to play with timing.........Remember that timing is all about playing....Play with it and have fun! Try to create different moods just by changing your timing....sometimes it works great and everytime you'll learn a lot in the process.

In Maya, ironically its not that easy to play with your timing and see the results. You'll have to select all those keyframe and then drag and move them around in the timeline and then you'll have to playblast everytime to see your stuff running at full speed.
I usually time my animation in a pencil shooter software called Monkey Jam. I export all my drawings from maya to MJ and time it there.
I also like to use Jason Shleifer's Grease Pencil script. I can directly draw in maya and set a rough timing..... Its really easy, and works great!

Alright, thats enough for now.... Just work the way you like...Keep experimenting....playing....thats it!
If you have any questions (as usual), feel free to shoot them in!

See ya!
-A

Amit_S
03-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Update:Heres the last animation without the overshoot:

01.CharacBall_MultipleBounces_4thattempt_NoOvershoot.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:148423

______________________________________

Hey!
OK- I'm searching for Boundin now to check what you mean. The characters you described ring a bell- is it the one which was included in The Incredibles or Cars DVD /movie tape pack?

Anyways....
I understand you point here. But unfortunately knowing is one thing and doing it is a different ball game.:D
I'll start experimenting with emotions on balls. Waiting for your tut. Is there any online tut or something which kind of explains how to add emotions to a ball?
I'm looking in Jean Haas'es site now. He does have some great student work.

But seriously I feel shooting for emotions so soon might be a little too much for me. What I'm going to do is this- continue with vanilla character balls for 1 or 2 animations. And in the meanwhile also try to get my hands on some ball animations with emotions and study them. then do it....

If there is any particular short you think will help me...plz post a link:)

Amit_S
03-08-2007, 03:59 AM
Couldnt do anything for a long time....

Update:02.Characball_PushingBlock.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:150754

In this I've copied Rons idea- a ball pushing a block.
Again, this is absolutely Vanilla- no emotion whatsoever.
Am not really satisfied- I think my previous one was much better....I think I was rushed too much while doing this.

After this, I think -I'm going to do some more regular bouncing balls and shorter animations for character balls with emotions. Am slowly getting into poses.

SandeepMaithani
03-08-2007, 02:02 PM
boundin ....I think its with the incredibles DVD......

Amit_S
03-09-2007, 05:15 AM
Posing- Ok- I saw a lot of posing material. Stuff like the line of action, flow lines, neutral poses, weight etc....that explained the technical aspects of a pose. But I'm still confused about the 'How'. How to make something look weak/strong? etc.

To all those who are practising posing:
How do you practise making poses?
Isnt the pose taken dependent on the plot line or the whole story? So how do you practise yur posing without a story line? Do you take a story just for reference and make your poses from that?

Or do you just take a topic like strength. Then draw out all poses which might show off strength in any area of life-like showing off muscles, lifing heavy stuff , a proud stance etc. Then pose out all of it.

______________________________________
Doesnt pose have more to do with the model?
For eg- say I'm doing a strength pose- wouldnt strength be more in the realm of the modeled structure of the character itself, rather than how it stands.
For eg- If I have a character like this:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9264/postmainof2.jpg
(created by Vivek Ram), then no matter how it stands- its going to look strong.
How do you pull this off with a character like the AM rig or with Ramtin Ahmadi's Moom with their twig like limbs?

____________________________________________________

Pose: Aloof
An interaction between 2 characters. The lady charac (Annie-pink) is screaming
"GET OUT!" or "LOOK AT THAT!" or "GET ME THAT!"
The guy charc (Animo-blue) is just not interested in what she is saying and is totally ignoring her. He is just standing aloof.

1st pose aloof:
http://www.geocities.com/sardal_amit/01.Aloof01.jpg

After making this I realized that Annie is not screaming. Looks more like she just wants Animo to look in that direction.

_______________________________



2nd attempt:

http://www.geocities.com/coolfighter_k1/01.Aloof02.jpg

Annies Line of action is stronger but still not strong enough. How can I improve on this?

SirRon
03-09-2007, 07:45 AM
Wow Amit, some of these are rather hard questions for me to try to answer :eek:

How to make something look weak/strong?

Making a character look weak/strong is a modelers job... but you're an animator so when they see your character people are suppose to THINK and FEEL that the character is weak/strong.

How do you practise making poses?
If you can get a big mirror so you can see your whole body or at least your upper body and ACT the poses. Of course a way to get a deeper understanding is to draw poses until you understand what makes a pose communicate an emotion or action.

Take a look at some of these.
The Pose is an Extreme(PDF) (http://www.animationmeat.com/pdf/waltstanchfield/26ws_xtrem_poses.pdf) - from Animation Meat Notes (http://www.animationmeat.com/notes/notes.html)
Gesture Drawing for Animators (http://punchandbrodie.com/leo/stanchfield/)


Isnt the pose taken dependent on the plot line or the whole story? So how do you practise yur posing without a story line? Do you take a story just for reference and make your poses from that?

Yes, but it's more than just the plot and story but the characters themselves.

I love watching people because they all tell a story with their body. Watch people walking, how many people walk exactly the same? What makes a person laugh differently from someone else? Does an old man fall down the same way as a young boy? Maybe the old man is a kung fu master and falls in a way so he can easily stand back up.

I think the trick in telling a story with your characters is to get your characters to tell the story. Haha that might not have made sense. I really feel like I know the answer but I can't somehow explain it.

Doesnt pose have more to do with the model?
For eg- say I'm doing a strength pose- wouldnt strength be more in the realm of the modeled structure of the character itself, rather than how it stands.
For eg- If I have a character like this:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9264/postmainof2.jpg
(created by Vivek Ram), then no matter how it stands- its going to look strong.

Again, I think you're thinking too much on the appearance (muscles) instead of the feeling (attitude). Yes, he will look muscular, but how is his body posed if he feels tired and weak?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/WeakStrongMan.jpg
Ok, I think that drawing is kind of stupid, but I spent some time so I might as well show you :D

Draw Verbs not Nouns (PDF) (http://www.animationmeat.com/pdf/waltstanchfield/24ws_drwing_verbs.pdf)

How can I improve on this?

Some of my thoughts.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/01.jpg

blurgh
03-09-2007, 11:30 AM
Hey guys, thats soem great posing stuff from Ron there!
life drawing is great for posing (of the whole body especially) unfortunatly posing is one of those areas where you kind of need an understanding of everything
negative space
contrast
compistion
acting
exaggeration
etc etc

much like all of animation haha

-Darken

Amit_S
03-09-2007, 05:32 PM
Hey Ron! Wow man! Thnx for this.
I think I'm beginning to understand your point about 'feel' and 'think' the pose. I went through some Donald Duck comics- and what you illustrated here hit bang on....there his puny duck who is looking stronger when the situation demands it. And big guys looking like pussy cats when they are scared.
Unfortunately most of these great artists heavily rely on facial expressions (or do they?)

I havent gone through your links as yet. I'm downloading them now. Thnx for them.

Nice jpeg! You are a cool artist...hmm....are you/have you done any poses just for practising poses? If so- plz post them.

In regards to them them in front of a mirror- I have been mostly an introvert personality- hence I kind of have problems while trying to act out this stuff. Any book/Cd you can recommend? Wha about Ed Hooks 'Acting for animators'? Or will it be trying to eat too much too soon?

___________
Hey Darken! yeah- Life drawing....
I'm not doing it...the only thing i'm doing is rough sketching/thumbnailing before I open Maya.

Amit_S
03-09-2007, 05:38 PM
Aloof pose update:

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/481/01aloof03hy0.jpg

SirRon
03-09-2007, 06:48 PM
Nice jpeg! You are a cool artist...hmm....are you/have you done any poses just for practising poses? If so- plz post them.

In regards to them them in front of a mirror- I have been mostly an introvert personality- hence I kind of have problems while trying to act out this stuff. Any book/Cd you can recommend? Wha about Ed Hooks 'Acting for animators'? Or will it be trying to eat too much too soon?

I used to practice drawing poses.... or was it because of an assignment in class? But it's more important to do life drawing. I've come to feel that life drawing is more than just being more skilled, it's also about building confidence in yourself for what you're creating.

"Acting for Animators"? YES! That's the book and Keith Lango that got me to think more about animation as expressing thoughts and emotion that just moving things. I still need to read Illusion of Life but I'm glad I finished Ed Hooks' book so I can understand more from Illusion of Life. It's an excellent book.

About the acting in front of a mirror, make sure no one is in the room or house then :) Seriously, animators are just closet actors that can draw or work with the computer. You can use a webcam too for a picture or video, that's what I do with some poses if I can't draw it or need some reference. I have my mom's vanity mirror right here on my table too.

NO ONE is going to be watching you acting. Well unless someone walks in the room :D I'm an introvert too, but that's mostly around people. When I'm alone, then I feel free to do whatever. It's good exercise too, physical and emotional. I like that I'm introverted actually, but sometimes you need to be extroverted too. Learning animation is one thing that has helped me do that.

So try those poses you're practicing right now (alarmed and aloof). Stand up and act alarmed. But keep this in mind.... thoughts lead to emotions. Emotions lead to action. So think of something that would alarm you. Pretend your home is on fire. How would you feel if your home is on fire? What would those feelings push your body to do? Would you jump or run around?

Here's some basic things that I think you should look at when you act a pose:
-How wide are your feet apart?
-What direction are your feet pointing?
-What part of your body is carrying your weight? Where is your center of gravity?
-What angle is your head tilting?
-How far out are your elbows going?
-How is your spine bending?
-What pose are your hands doing?

If you can try to get a picture of that then compare it to what you have done. I'm sure you'll see a big difference. If you can't then I'm sure you can feel a difference when you compare your body to the pose you have on Maya

That's a much better aloof pose, but if he doesn't want to listen then shouldn't his head be pointing away from the other person than towards?

Good questions, you really got me thinking about posing. I've never written down what to look for when I act a pose but I've always thought of those things when I do them. And it makes me happy to hear you say you do some thumbnailing before you open Maya :)

Amit_S
03-10-2007, 08:32 PM
Hey Ron.

Life drawing :Yeah- everyone says its important....even Richard Williams stresses it as the no. 1 point in the Survival Kit. I tried my hand at it. I wont knock it down or anything. But thats something I dont want to do right now- because I lack the proper teachers for it. Of course, I could just draw a toy or convince someone to pose for me- but I wont know what I'm looking for.

Obviously, life drawing is not some miracle by which I'll somehow understand everything about weight, pose etc. At my level - I can use life drawing only to memorize human anatomy, drawing humans better and get some general drawing practise. All the other things like weight, expression, gesture which you are supposed to learn from life drawing will be lost to me cause I wont know what I'm looking out for.

Just like in animation : I started with bipeds: walk cycles and weight lifts etc etc. Of course I had read a lot of experts say that you should start with poses, basic ballls etc. Hell! even animation mentor starts like that! But because I did'nt have any teachers I just couldnt understand how balls were going to help me. If I had done balls and stuff back then- I would have done them just for the sake of doing them . And hoping that somehow, magically, the great mysteries of animation reveal themselves to me via the balls. Of course- that wouldnt have worked. I'm doing balls now cause (thanks to all you guys with your gt critiques:) ) I understand what to look for: squash, stretch, cushion, overshoot-settle etc.

_________________

Ok- enough of my rambling....

Will get Ed Hooks book as soon as possible.
Nice tip about acting in front of a mirror when no ones there! Will do that.Thnx for the list of things to look out for.

Just one thing: I noticed that you think I'm making an alarmed pose and an aloof pose.
Right on the aloof one but Annie is not showing an alarmed pose. Its like:
Annie(pink):"GET OUT!" or "Theres the door. Show urself out!"
Animo(blue):Aloof- lost in his own thoughts. Kindaa ignoring her.

Quote:Sirron:
"but if he doesn't want to listen then shouldn't his head be pointing away from the other person than towards?"

Yeah- I wanted to point his head the other way round....but that was kind of like putting him in profile. The audience should be able to see his face. Hence that direction.

What do u think?

Amit_S
03-10-2007, 08:34 PM
Update:
Jellyfish animation.
(Its not exactly a jellyfish...maybe a squid....
Its in water, slowly, aimlessly swimming up.)

01.Jellyfish.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:151811

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-11-2007, 08:58 AM
Update:
Jellyfish animation.
(Its not exactly a jellyfish...maybe a squid....
Its in water, slowly, aimlessly swimming up.)

01.Jellyfish.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:151811

Hehehhh..... I like it. Try some turns loops etc! hehhehh...

-A

blurgh
03-11-2007, 04:35 PM
heh cool animation, is that a ball rig your using ?

-Darken

SandeepMaithani
03-12-2007, 06:32 AM
Hi Amit
I've just emailed u a book on applying principles in character animation.I mean all what u have doing with bouncing balls and how that can help in char animation.
Let me know.

cheers

sandy

comeoan
03-13-2007, 05:19 AM
hey ! its read to read u r remarks guys
Amrit-Derhgawen , hey ! bro i am here

Amit_S
03-13-2007, 09:24 AM
Hey all!
So you guys liked my jellyfish, eh? Cool!:thumbsup:

Amrit:Hey!Ok- will do something more...lets see....

Darken- Long time no see.:) What project r u working on right now?
Are you refering to the jellyfish ani or the ball ani?
Jellyfish:no rig- I just took a poly sphere, cut it and put a squash deformer in it.
Ball: Well..Amrit has mailed me a rig. That and I also have downloaded one from
http://www.mattornstein.com/downloads.html

Sandy:Hey wow man! Thanks!
I'm checking my email right now.....
I'll mail u soon.....

Oan:Hey Dude!
So u finally registered, eh?
Ok- now do one more thing- make a thread like this.

Amit_S
03-13-2007, 09:56 AM
Here are some of the things I've done:

Update on Character ball pushing blocks.It still needs some fine tuning and there are a few glaring mistakes . But I'm very very tired. Have to take a break. But will post the final version soon.

http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153048
__________________________________________________

Update:
A new animation:A character ball on a swing

Side View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:152845

Perspective View:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:152892

Amit_S
03-13-2007, 08:14 PM
Pose: Excitement! he's saying "YEAH!!!"

I took Rons advice and acted out in front of a mirror to see how I would express myself. But honestly they look kind of boring. How to spice them up a little?


http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5011/excitement1lc0.jpg

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/6824/excitement2ev8.jpg

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-14-2007, 04:21 AM
Pay attention to the line of action and the flow lines. And push your poses to increase its entertainment value. To improve your posing.....draw A LOT!! Get used to life drawing and gesture drawing....That will help you a lot with your posing!

Oh yeah! I like your "swing and ball animation"! I like the way your ball character puts in all his energy into it! You need to work on your squash and stretch though. Add some micro anticipation (very little stretch right before a squash). That should help!

Good luck!
-A

Amit_S
03-14-2007, 03:36 PM
Ball with Tail.
This is my 1st Ball-tail animation. I didnt go in for any 'characterization' in this. Since this was my 1st tail ani- just concentrated on getting the mechanics right.
I've included some closeups since the whole clip is big and looks very small.
Looking fwd to some critiques from all you guys here.

01.BalltailHops.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153679

01.BalltailHops_CloseUp.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153680

01.BalltailHops_CloseUpEnd.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153681

01.BalltailHops_CloseUpStart.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153683

Amit_S
03-14-2007, 03:42 PM
Hey Amrit.
Ok- will take care of the Swing ball ani. Micro-anticipation is not something I have done- but I get the idea nevertheless.

Pose: Thnx for the ref..but sigh! I thought it was really easy- but its not. Although its very entertaining....making weired faces and stuff in front of a mirror when I'm alone.
:surprised :argh: :twisted:

Its not the actual poseing in Maya- the rigs are easily moved..
Its WHAT do do.....
I'm already doing basic gestures by looking at myself...need to find some more material.

Amit_S
03-14-2007, 08:03 PM
Swing animation:

In my 1st attempt- the biggest problem was the swing itself.
The 1st half when the character is deliberately pushing on the swing- that was OK.
The problem starts when the ball stops pushing and the slide just swings about a little and comes to rest.
Its got somethng o do with Physics.
You take a pendulum of any size...then u move it to an extreme of 10 inches or an extreme of 5 inches- when the oscillations start they take the same amout of time. As the pendulum loses energy and travels less distance -it will simply get slower but will take the same amout of time.
I fixed that in this update.

Tried micro-anticipations as Amrit suggested but parent constraint started giving me problems.
hence i skipped it.

Here's the update:

01.CharacBall_Swing_side_2ndattempt.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153773

Amit_S
03-14-2007, 08:05 PM
Update on Pushing blocks.

No big changes here...just cleaned it up a bit, added more cushion to the box after its pushed, mini bounces for the ball , changes a few rotations etc...

02.Characball_PushingBlock_3rdattempt.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:153760

thedaemon
03-14-2007, 10:15 PM
When the ball jumps up and hits the large block the second time, he slides back to approximately the same position as the previous smaller jump. Wouldn't the force from a larger, faster jump propel him backwards more?

Amit_S
03-15-2007, 04:15 AM
When the ball jumps up and hits the large block the second time, he slides back to approximately the same position as the previous smaller jump. Wouldn't the force from a larger, faster jump propel him backwards more?

Hye Brandon
Thnx for the critique.
This is what I wanted to show:
1.1st jump: Its a head on collision. bang! Then it ricochets off the wall.

2.2nd jump: It takes a bigger anticipation/squash to gather more energy. But despite that its not enough to reach the top. In fact its not even enough to touch the platform. It loses its energy and goes in a curve/arc. Its a small arc. And because of that the ricochet is less in value. Hence it simply falls down as opposed to bouncing back.

So...do you think I'm right?

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-16-2007, 04:37 PM
Hey Amit and everyone!

Do check out my new Animomania (workflow tutorial).
http://amritd.blogspot.com/2007/03/animomania-my-workflow-tutorial.html

I hope you all like it.
-A

SirRon
03-18-2007, 03:28 AM
Hey Amit, I just figured out a great source to study poses, and I think you mentioned it already.


POSES:
I was thinking about everything posted here on the poses and the timings...
it just stuck me then- poses are nothing but comics! Just like in comics u r supposed to tell ur story through ur main blocked poses. That series of panels with drawings (or frames for that matter) should tell the entire story. Is my thinkng correct?

When you're thinking of a pose think of a comic book. But keep in mind that sometimes those poses might be too exaggerated.

Amit_S
03-22-2007, 08:34 AM
Hey Ron! Yup- I think I need to start taking my own advice seriously here.....
hee!hee! I'm afraid I wasted a lot of time getting too technical with poses. I need to just kick back and draw draw draw!


I'm posting after a long time!
Just had some health problems...was also busy with some other work.

Havent tried any poses yet- but will do so soon...currently I'm going through Walt Stanchfield's stuff on animation meat....a lot of it is going over my head :(
I mean I understand what he is saying but I'm having a hard time putting that theory in action.
Anyways- heres something:

Another take on the push blocks animation:
02.Characball_PushingBlock_4thattempt.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:157213

01.CharacBall_Swing_side_3rdattempt.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:157200

01.Balloon.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:157531

Amit_S
03-25-2007, 09:14 PM
Update:
01.CharacBall_ObstacleCourse_Blocking1:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:159171
I've kept the 1st few frames empty cause I want to add some tail wag there.
The platform with the red dot in the middle- it revolves. I havent animated it as yet cause I wanted to get my bal timing correct.

This is my 1st attempt at an obstacle course and with Pose-to-pose animation. I had tried pose-to-pose before but didnt know how to proceed with it. This is only the basic blocking phase.
1 thing it seems to thoroughly lack is weight. Esp during the last part when it collides against the platform and bounces back.
Sucks man:sad:

Amrit-Derhgawen
03-27-2007, 02:50 AM
Hi Amit!

Sorry for the late reply! I think you still gotta work on the timing. Some of its holds are quite small....you need to play a lot with the timing. What I mean by that (playing with timing) is, whenever you reach a point where you're satisfied with your timing.....Do NOT stop here! Keep playing with the timing. You'll get better! Yup!!

I don't know if pose to pose is helping you in this kind of animation. For my character ball animations, I apply both, straight ahead and pose to pose. I kinda mix them all together to fit my needs. And all this efficiency in workflow comes from experience. So, don't stick to pose-to-pose or straight ahead. Just keep playing with them.... explore them and find your own method to work on a perticular type of animation.

You haven't worked on the tail..... I would normally block my scene with everything in it including the tail. But thats okay if you wanna follow the layered approach.

Keep working. Cheers!
-A

SirRon
03-27-2007, 03:27 AM
I'm with Amrit. When I work pose to pose I work on the entire pose. When you were animating a regular ball without a tail you couldn't really get a "pose". Now that you have a ball with a tail now you can start experimenting with poses more.

Oh, another thing that might help would be to write down things you want to change after you do a playblast. I'm starting to do this with my animation challenge. It helps me be more organized with my revisions instead of always looking for something to change whenever I see it.

Amit_S
04-04-2007, 05:56 PM
O-kay...its been a long time now.
Both, me and my PC, were down for the week. :argh:
Seems it was a power fluctuation (or maybe some viruses) which seems to have screwed my PC. I'm on a borrowed HDD right now. Most probably I'm going to lose all my data- all the animations which I posted here. They were not much- but they were mine :cry: :cry:
I'm just hoping that at least my ani data is recovered. I used to often save my files in my email folder. Will have to go through the mails and stuff again...sucks man! I'm always going to take back ups now.


Amrit and Ron:Hey!
I'll most probably have to make the obstacle course again. So this time I'll include the tail in it.
About the pose style...hmm...maybe a combo style would be good here. But my main purpose here was not the obstacle ani but actually getting the hang of the workflow.

I'm uploading some poses i did today.
No animations. There seems to be some problem with Maya. My mouse keeps freezing with Maya

Amit_S
04-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Pose:
A change on my ALoof situation:
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/2143/aloof3ub0.jpg

Amit_S
04-04-2007, 06:26 PM
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8959/model1tp9.jpgA model posing- sensuous, sexy kind of pose

Amit_S
04-04-2007, 06:31 PM
Another model pose:


http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2310/model2hu9.jpg

Amit_S
04-04-2007, 06:35 PM
A man walking in snow, struggling against the strong winds:


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5118/strugglingagainstwindqp9.jpg

Amit_S
04-08-2007, 02:41 PM
No critiques :sad:

I might be getting my PC back today or tomorrow. Lets just hope all my work isnt gone.

Anyways, I'm doing Walk Cycles again. Heres a small one with a Hip ball.
The Rig is Lt.Dan.
It from www.mattornstein.com (http://www.mattornstein.com)

01.HipBall_WalkCycle_Front.mov
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:166427

01.HipBall_WalkCycle_Side.mov
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:166428

I couldnt decide between the above ones and something else I did which has more up and down motion. Which one would be more technically correct? Assuming they are both right, which one would be preferable?

01.HipBall_WalkCycle_ExtremeUpDown_Side.mov
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:166433

01.HipBall_WalkCycle_ExtremeUpDownFront.mov
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:166436

Also- theres this big problem here: When the hips and feet go down, I feel that they are ging down way too fast. The contact pose with the front leg straight is hardly seen.

____________________________________________

How do I add thumbnails?
I tried adding them, but they just wouldnt show up. Hence I had those full poses.

Amit_S
04-09-2007, 06:18 PM
No critiques:sad:

Moom Walk Cycle:

01.MoomWalCycle_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:167244

01.MoomWalCycle_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:167247

SirRon
04-09-2007, 08:32 PM
Don't worry about not getting replies, that's just everyone's way of saying post more :) Think of it as a test to your perseverance too :)

When you're practicing poses it helps me to do it at least 2 or 3 times, each time I'm pushing it more and more. Kind of like stretching your muscles, you stretch... hold...stretch some more... hold... and stretch more.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/struggleagainstwind_paintover.jpg

Hmm.... it's looking more like a push isn't it? But it does feel like pushing when you're against wind right?

As for the walks, it looks fine except the jittering. It looks that way because the some parts are not moving enough. You can have a good arc but if the timing is off then it will look jittery. Like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/jittery_timing.gif
Open in quicktime and look at it frame by frame and I hope you see what I mean.

Amit_S
04-10-2007, 05:58 AM
Hey Ron:)
I understand the point about pushing the poses. I too build diff poses with varrying degrees of intensity- but obviously I'm not pushing enough.
Thnx for the jpegs - I'll push them more from now on.
My big problem is this: how do I push a pose to the point it looks very strong without making it look too cartoont or too ridiculous? I guess thats why i stay on the conservative side.

Yeah- walking against the wind is like pushing.
I got this pose from Charlie Chaplins 'Gold Rush'.
You know- silent movies , Mimes and Pantomimes are a grt source for poses- esp considering they are all a visual art form- no dialogues.

Jittering? ....I dont understand this point. Do you mean spacing? Or do you mean my timing is too concentrated on one side as opposed to another?
And is this problem in the Moom walk or Hip ball walk?

SirRon
04-10-2007, 07:12 AM
Jittering? ....I dont understand this point. Do you mean spacing? Or do you mean my timing is too concentrated on one side as opposed to another?
And is this problem in the Moom walk or Hip ball walk?

The Moom walk. I didn't realize it until I checked it, but the arc for the neck looks a little weird to me too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/moom_walk.gif

There is a part of the walk where the direction of his body goes the opposite direction for two frames then continues going the other direction. Like it suddenly goes left then right. That's what I mean by jittering, little movements going the opposite direction or no direction. There are other parts of the animation where it moves straight in one direction like going left or going straight down.

For poses take a look at the bottom of this page (http://www.tysonibele.com/Main/gallery.htm). I think it shows that it doesn't matter how the character looks, but how good the pose is.

Amit_S
04-10-2007, 12:00 PM
Poses: man! Nice link! that guy is a complete all rounder! Thnx for the link- checking his stuff now.

Jittering: I think I'm getting your point now.
I still dont understand the word 'jittering'. But i understand the point.
What you are saying is that you want the hips and the head to follow a horizontal 8 arc- like in page 252 of the Survival kit.
yeah- u r right. I tried changing it but just couldnt change the movement. Still working on it though.

Btw, have you come across some really good ones i can use to study?

Amrit has this one on:
http://amritd.blogspot.com/2007/03/walk-cycle.html

SirRon
04-10-2007, 06:28 PM
The word jittering means that something makes small quick movements. Like what Amrit said on your thread at another forum.

Yes, like what it said in the Survival kit. Just concentrate on getting the hips to move nicely, then work on the body. Hips first then body.

Thanks for showing Amrit's walk cycle, I couldn't find one to show you.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/Amrit_Walk.gif

Damn... I want to do a walk cycle now... :)

Amit_S
04-10-2007, 10:15 PM
Yup- get it now!
Thnx. Ill fix mine.
The hips follow a similar route as that of the neck.

By the way, plz check your PM.

And hey! why not? Do a walk cycle asap or at least as soon as your competetion is over.:thumbsup:

Amit_S
04-12-2007, 05:32 AM
Its still not over- but heres an update. At least now, the hips and the upper trunk area are moving much better.
02.MoomWalCycle_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:168676

02.MoomWalCycle_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:168678

By the way, here are some screen caps from my Graph editor.
As you can see they are not at all smooth. If i try to make them smooth -the walk changes and it doesnt show that force I want it to show.
How important is making a smooth graph curve? Do you need a smooth curve to have a smooth action?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9650/hipxaxissp8.jpg

Amit_S
04-12-2007, 05:34 AM
Right foot X axis:http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/8732/rightfootzaxiszx7.jpg

Amit_S
04-12-2007, 05:36 AM
Does anyone know how to post thumbnails here?

SirRon
04-12-2007, 05:10 PM
Does anyone know how to post thumbnails here?

Thumbnails so you see small images then you click on them for a bigger one?

Amit_S
04-12-2007, 09:39 PM
Yes- small images on which I can click.
I tried the thumbnail links given on imageshack but they did not work.

_______________
BTW, I tried rewrking Moom -but it just wasnt happening. I'm doing a diff walk cycle right now...and I've chaged 1 mahor thing here- Hip rotations and all.
Best to show you all. I've completed the lower ody in a side view.
Unfortunately for some reason I cant upload it......it keeps timing out. Will try again tomorrow morning.

Amit_S
04-13-2007, 07:58 PM
I tried reworking the Moom Walk cycle -but it was too screwed already.
I'll do a walk cycle with Moom later on.


Hogan walk Cycle:
01.LowerBody_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:169501

01.LowerBody_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:169504

The playblast is done in a linear mode. I havent smoothened out any curve.

Pass Pose: On this pose, the weight is on one leg. The hip is thrown sidewards in the direction of that leg.
The hip is also rotated in this position. If the body wt is suppported on the left leg , then the left side of the hip will be higher and vice versa. That was what I generally did on all my walk cycles.

But since the character is pulling tthe opposite leg up to plant it forward, shouldnt that part of the hip be higher? Thats what I've tried experimenting with in this walk.
___________________________________________________________

Does anyone know of good walk cycles available online?
I just went through as many walk cycles I could find. Surprisingly there are very few walk cycles online. The closest I could find was fashion shows. I would suggest going through Victorias Secret. Most of the models are 6 feet something and hardly wearing anything-so it becomes very easy to check out their body parts- hips in relation to their feet etc.
Also look out for Squat walks, Deadlift walks, Farmers walk, Lunges, Truck pulls and Sled Drags. They are all strongman events which feature the athletes walking while handling some weight.

Some of the walks feature the back leg being lifted and planted forward.
while some have the leg just thrown out forward. In some cases the hip side on which the weight rests is high, sometimes the other way round etc etc etc.
Seriously, the number walk cycle variations out there are equal to the number of people who can walk.

Amit_S
04-16-2007, 09:26 AM
OK- Finally got this done.
Its still in linear mode.
If there are any mistakes here, any breakdowns that are still needed- then plz do post a critique.
02.HoganWalkCycle_Linear_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:171044

02.HoganWalkCycle_Linear_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:171046

________________________________________________
Ron:
Do we really need the horizontal 8 for the hips and the neck? Do humans really move that way or are there variations?
I did have the proper motion curve in my hips, but the weight shift was too exagerrated.
Check out some of the previous videos I posted.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7336/hipcurveexagerratedwtshjn4.jpg


________________________________________________________________

Then I cut down the weight shift and these are the motion curves I ended up with.
Hip Curve:
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8686/hipcurveyd5.jpg


Neck/head_curve:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2964/neckcurvere8.jpg

Of course, right now the tangents are in Linear mode. once I flatten them , the curves will be more.....curved.
But even then there wont be a smooth fig 8.

SirRon
04-17-2007, 12:35 AM
I don't know if they ALWAYS have to be in a "8" shape, but a lot of the good looking walk cycles seem to have them. Of course humans have variations.

That last image for the head/neck curve, I don't think the 1-2 and 13-14 should be so vertical. that doesn't look like a good looking arc (there is none). I think Amrit said in a previous post, as long as it looks great that's the only thing that matters. I probably do this more than I should, but look at A LOT of demo reels, good and bad. That should help you develop an eye for what looks good so you can see what's wrong with your work.

Amit_S
04-17-2007, 01:17 AM
Oops!
Hey Ron- Thnx for this...but I guess I jumped the gun on this.
Heres the walk cycle after smoothing out all curves on it.

03.HoganWalkCycle_Spline_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:171396

03.HoganWalkCycle_Spline_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:171487

I found that after smoothing out eveythng- it naturally got a fig. 8!
Guess that means this is a natural motion for the body. Cause I never went out there to make a fig 8- but just concentrated on getting my poses, brkdowns , timing correct - and it shows up all by itself!

Hip motion path:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6009/hipcurvesplinezv4.jpg

Neck Motion Path:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9113/neckcurvesplineah5.jpg



Plz give me some critiques on this.
The biggest problem I see here is the arm swing.
Anything else?

Amrit-Derhgawen
04-18-2007, 08:30 AM
Hi Amit!

Take a look at your passing postion. RIght now, the foot goes too high. It kinda makes him look as if he is walking on snow or something. Don't over exeggerate the poses! Keep things subtle. Sorry for the late reply.... just too busy these days!

Cheers!
-A

Amit_S
04-23-2007, 02:18 PM
An update on the Hogan walk cycle.
I follwed Amrit's advice and have made this more subtle. No more snow walking.
Also changed the stride length.

Amrit: About the 16fps walk cycle which you recommended, will do that after this.

Currently, I'm doing another one with Generi.

04.HoganWalkCycle_Spline_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:175471

04.HoganWalkCycle_Spline_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:175475

Amit_S
04-23-2007, 08:04 PM
Generi walk cycle:

Its not done yet- I'm still not satisfied with the head.
Any suggestions?
Any other major mistake that you see?

01.GeneriWalkCycle_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:175738

01.GeneriWalkCycle_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:175745

Amit_S
04-25-2007, 03:06 PM
Currently taking a break from walk cycles.
I'm working on them. I'll post them later.

01.BallTail_PushingBlocks.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:176982

01.NewBall_PushingBlocks.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:176996


Those who are checking out this thread will notice that i had done something similar before. I lost some files in a computer failure and have done them again.

It seems like the ball without tail looks better than the one with the tail.
What do you guys think? Which one is better? Plz plz plz reply back on this one.

Which one is batter? Red ball or Ball Tail?
Any critiques will be appreciated.

comeoan
04-30-2007, 05:52 PM
awesome yaar ! gr8 improvement yaar , keep it up
ball animation is good , keep it up !
take care

Chris Bacon
05-01-2007, 09:42 AM
Hi Amit

Ive just been looking through your shots and I have to say the difference the first post till now is realy good, keep at it.

chris

Amit_S
05-04-2007, 05:51 AM
Hey everyone!
Posting after a long time. I was busy applying for an apprentice program.
Heres the showreel I submitted.
01.Showreel:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:181553

It contains a new push blocks animation. I lost the old one with my computer crash.
(A big thanks to Ron for this one. I stole his idea:twisted: And it turned out to be my best character ball animation. Hee!hee! Anything else for me my grt guru?:p. But seriosuly, thanks for the idea:thumbsup::thumbsup:)

Also it contains new walk cycles done with Generi and Hogan. I dont see how I can make my regular walk cycles any better than this. But of course, critiques are always welcome.
I'm working on Sneaks and Runs right now.


__________________________
Hey Chris and Oan- thnx for the compliments.:)
yeah Chris- I've come a long way now. Theres a world of difference b/w the 1st post with the PackageMan Walk Cycle v/s the Hogan and Genri Walk Cycle I just posted.
Hope o keep on improving.

Amit_S
05-06-2007, 02:54 PM
No comments?:sad:

Anyways, heres a Run cycle.
Only the lower body actually.

01.MoomRunLowerBody_Front:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:184256

01.MoomRunLowerBody_Side:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:184259

Amit_S
05-07-2007, 09:29 AM
Arm swing length: Richard Williams v/s Muybridge

OK- I kind of remember posting something similar but it wasnt about run cycles.
Anyways, in Ani Survival Kit, Richard Williams says something like the arms should be at the farthest in the down position of a walk and run.
On pg 177 he shows a cartoon run on 6s where he draws the arms at the widest at the down position.

I just went through Muybridge and I found that the arms are at the widest during the extreme up position (when both the legs are in the air). And they are at the closest during the down position.

So am I missing something here?
Not trying to be a smart ass and put down Richard Williams or anything like that. I respect the guy and love his work and his book. Just confused.

Amit_S
05-07-2007, 12:24 PM
Heres an update. its completed- but far from finished.
There are a few things I would like to improve- esp the hands and the up and down motion.
Any suggestions?


01.MoomRun_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185077


01.MoomRun_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185074

Amit_S
05-07-2007, 03:06 PM
Still no Run critiques :sad:
I'm currently trying a traditional Sneak Walk.

01.GenriSneakWalk_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185151

Dresse
05-07-2007, 03:32 PM
i did such a walk cycle for my first 3D animaiton ever... or maybe it was my second... :)
annywayzz.. i think you should animate the spine more... when he moves his foot forwards you could bend his spine way back, and when he places his foot you could bend his spine forwards... i uploaded mine animation from a few years ago. I know it is crap (it lost my 3D virginity there, and i only worked 1 evening on the animation...), but i think the first part of the sneaky walk is still ok and gives you an idea of what i mean with animating the spine...

http://dresse.free.fr/3dmotion/inbraak.mov

Delucubus
05-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Hey there,

Watch the curves on the root (COG). The up and down and the forward movement should be nice and smooth, there's some jerky-ness going on right now. Thats a big thing i'm noticing right off the bat.

Amit_S
05-08-2007, 06:11 PM
Ok- here's an update:

02.MoomRun_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185828h

02.MoomRun_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185829h

Still needs a little more refining though.

___________________

Sneak:

02.GenriSneakWalk_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:185827
________________________________________________

Dresse: Lol!:scream:
But I get the idea. It reminds me of my 1st so-called animation. I didnt know anything about the tools like extrude, cut etc. I thought all those models which I saw were done by putting basic blocks like boxes and spheres together. I made my 1st 'human' like that and made it walk.

I havent done what you said in this update. But I'll do it later. I'm now trying to get in more of a Preston Blair sneak.

Todd: Thnx for pointing that out man. It was the cog spline still in linear mode. Somehow I missed splining it.

Amit_S
05-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Couldn't do work for a long time. Sucks.
Here's an update on the Run Cycle. It looks better but it still seems to lack weight.
Any suggestions?

03.MoomRun_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:192564

03.MoomRun_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:192567

Amit_S
05-23-2007, 05:04 PM
Still no critiques:sad:
Guess my work is slipping down:D

An update:

04.MoomRun_Front.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:195832

04.MoomRun_Side.mov:
http://www.vimeo.com/clip:195838

I've changed quite a few things in this.

Timing:
Contact pose: Frame 1
Down pose: Frame 2
Earlier the down pose was on frame 3. I wanted it a little faster. The extra frame which was left over is now a part of the transition from the down to the pass pose.

Torso angle: I've anged it forward for the entire run.

Upper body rotations:
They are more subtle now. The peak of the reverse rotation is now on the frame after the Extreme Up pose. Earlier it was on the Extreme Up pose.

Push Off:
I've added a "push off" pose.
Thats on frame 4 and 5.

Animated hips in Z axis.

So what else can I do here?

GoldenCamel
05-23-2007, 07:58 PM
couldnt download the .mov file to frame through it but from the vimeo file,
the run needs more weight
arc of wrist going back is not clean
more twist in shoulder vs hips

see mr. incredible's run in the incredibles just before they find the rocket in the island and get back to mainland.

VM
05-25-2007, 08:54 PM
When you're practicing poses it helps me to do it at least 2 or 3 times, each time I'm pushing it more and more. Kind of like stretching your muscles, you stretch... hold...stretch some more... hold... and stretch more.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/struggleagainstwind_paintover.jpg

Hmm.... it's looking more like a push isn't it? But it does feel like pushing when you're against wind right?


About the term "pushing a pose" - I think there are 2 ways of understanding it.

1 - exaggerate a pose. this is necessary in cartoon animation mostly, making the pose stronger and read better. it works great only in cartoony characters, I think. in an exaggerated world exaggeration is normal.

2 - make a pose more accurate, closer to the real thing, or make it feel more accurate by adapting the real thing to your character/type of character. a pose is something personal, it has to be adapted to the shapes and anatomy of each model. I think pushing the pose in this way is better. exaggeration and graphical shapes work with some characters, but accuracy works with all of them, and is more necessary.

yeah, Amit's original pose is not so clear, not as graphical, but it could be clearer in context. not a great poster, or key pose. your pose no 2, for example, is much clearer, very strong, but also cartoony - it implies an insanely exaggerated wind, and a cartoony character. the thing with 3d animation..... is.... that...... a lot of time, these characters are not that cartoony looking, you see texture, volume, and lots of realistic details... and naturalistic animation, in my humblest oppinion, suits it better. or maybe a mixture of naturalistic and cartoony. yet... we train ourselves in cartoony animation, like it's 1935 and we have to animate drawings. and then you see cute cartoon takes (yayayayaya, very subtle, but they'z there) and other cartoon priciples in characters like Gollum! which is not supposed to be cartoony at all. cartoony wacky animation with very (even wildy) exaggerated poses works best with cartoony characters, and especially in 2d... where it's really at home. but in 3d, truth to materials and naturalistic animation are more at home, have more impact, and feel & look better. that's only an oppinion.

my coment about Amit's pose - see what you can do with the hands, especially, to capture that moment (see reference or videotape yourself - yeah, I know, nothing new).

As for the walks, it looks fine except the jittering. It looks that way because the some parts are not moving enough. You can have a good arc but if the timing is off then it will look jittery. Like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Sirron/jittery_timing.gif

about jitter - I think most jittering occurs because of breaks in the spacing, that flow is interrupted with auxiliary movement that shouldn't be there. I think normally spacing is OK to be smooth and round; arcs are round, so that's normal. but timing shouldn't be too "round" or even - of course, breaks in timing also create unwanted accents, but unless these accents are very noticeable and very off... they're not as bad as spacing off-accents. in fact, natural timing is uneven, with small, subtle accents. the pendulum example is not a good example here, because the pendulum requires smooth timing - not even, but smooth (and spacing, but timing is what I'm talking about right now), while human animation usually requires un-smooth :D timing. but fairly smooth spacing, or arcs, or paths of action. ammm, extra-smooth spacing also looks cartoony and is not realistic, but it's ok, feels natural enough, as opposed to unwanted jittering in spacing, which jumps at ya like crazy.

and to conlcude in my favourite dry Forest Gumpish way - that's all I had to say about that. :beer: cheers, and happy animating!!!

Amit_S
05-29-2007, 06:15 PM
Hey Patrick. Thnx for the critiques.

Wrist Arc: I understand this point and will correct this.

"more twist in shoulder vs hips"
Do you mean more twist in the shoulders and less in the hips? Or do you mean more twist in the shoulders and the hips.

Thnx for reminding me about the Incredibles ref. Will check it out.

Vimeo: I think you werent logged in when you tried to download the video. If you havent signed up, then you might want to give it a try. Not saying that just cause I want critiques from you:), but its a very good site, easy uploads and downloads....

________________________________

Hye VM:
Thnx for the comments on posing and jittering.
About poses: At this point I've decided not to go back to poses for now. I'm just conc on walks, runs and the like. I feel that studying poses while you are doing actions works much better. I may be wrong..lets see. If I find animating actions too tough, I'll just get back to more poses.

Jittering:Thnx for the adding this to what Ron posted.
My run cycle does look smooth- but then thats what I think. If its not too much trouble , can you plz go through it and point out if I have any jittering in it.

Amit_S
05-29-2007, 06:15 PM
Hey Patrick. Thnx for the critiques.

Wrist Arc: I understand this point and will correct this.

"more twist in shoulder vs hips"
Do you mean more twist in the shoulders and less in the hips? Or do you mean more twist in the shoulders and the hips.

Thnx for reminding me about the Incredibles ref. Will check it out.

Vimeo: I think you werent logged in when you tried to download the video. If you havent signed up, then you might want to give it a try. Not saying that just cause I want critiques from you:), but its a very good site, easy uploads and downloads....

________________________________

Hye VM.
Thnx for the comments on posing and jittering.
About poses: At this point I've decided not to go back to poses for now. I'm just conc on walks, runs and the like. I feel that studying poses while you are doing actions works much better. I may be wrong..lets see. If I find animating actions too tough, I'll just get back to more poses.

Jittering:Thnx for the adding this to what Ron posted.
My run cycle does look smooth- but then thats what I think. If its not too much trouble , can you plz go through it and point out if I have any jittering in it.