Wings3d versus the world of 3d apps

[Qslugs]

Well I can chime in on the LW end because I have used it for quite some time now and still use it on a regular occasion for S-D modeling.

In Lw you can view and work on your model in reatime sub d mode. You cannot in W3D. No N-gons in Lightwave, having no N-gons teaches you discipline to creat clean efficent models.

No Edges in LW, nuff said about that.

In LW to select edge loops you use the bandsaw tool. Not quite the same as w3D but you still are selecting a loop of something. In W3d, you select a edge and press either L for a edge loop or G for an edge ring. To add more cross sections you press cut and the number of cuts you want. In Lw you can select where you want the bandsaw tool to preform the cut. In both LW and Wings via plugs you can slide points/edges along the edges to finetune the models.

Wings only currently only has one viewport, Lw has up to 4. this is not really a big deal in Wings because a.) you can only work in one viewport at a time and by pressing x,y, or z you can switch viewing axises. It would be nice to have the extra views though so you could see how your mesh is being effected from another view.

Virtual mirror blows Lw's symmetry mode out of the water. It works with every tool I think and it also works the way it should. In Lw the mose gets some sort of weirdness when you move it a certain way, and most tools don't work quite right with symmetry turned on.

Chaning selection modes in LW keeps selections in a kind of wait state. Selections are still active when you switch back to the previously active mode. In wings selection modes are equal and contain the same elements when switching modes. If you switch from poly to vertx you get the vtx's of the polys you just had selected. The same goes for edges however switching from edges back to polys or vertexes you get an extra row of items since edges connect to other parts of the neighboring geometry. This effect can be used to grow out your selection.

In Lw you can use expand and contract selected to add to or subtract from your selection one row of points or polys at a time. The equilivant can be done with W3d with the + and - keys.

Lw has layers, you can bulid any nu,ber of objects on any number of layers, you can copy or paste from any model to any layer. In w3D hou have to do a edge cut to create another peice of a model (there is no copy or paste.) once the model is cut in two you can hide or make active any number of peices.

LW has descent tools for Uv editing, W3d is just getting started and isn't any real competition.

Lw had background images, W3d has image planes.

Lw has the magnet and dragnet tool, W3d has the tweak mode.

Lw has smooth shift, W3d has the bump tool.

Lw without the use of plugins cannot move a point or poly along a normal, in W3d this is built in.

W3d keeps your model a perfect volume, LW does not. I am not sure what the advantage to this is, however I think your mesh has less problems going back and forth between apps coming out of Wings.

To split a poly, you grab two vertices and press connect. Alternately, cutting a large number of edges in wings creates a large number of vertices which in turn can be connected automatically, regardless for the most part of the order they were selected in.

In Lw you can use the knife tool to split a poly, however you have to be aware of creating more than 4 sided polys (ngons) because they are incompatible with LW's s-d mode. This is not an issue in W3d. N-gons are supported and smooth out properly.

Thats all I can think of right now. Please excuse all the typos. I will add more later if I can think of anything else.

[BazC]

Nice comparrison Qslugs, .....

The rest of my post was potentially taking this thread waaaay off topic so I've moved it to a new one!

Baz :o)

[puzzledpaul]

<< Maybe this would be best in a new thread? >>
I’d say yes – keep this for wasa’s original topic and start another for workflow / method differences between apps – and how people (used to using other apps tools) get around these differences when using wings?
I’ve seen such threads as this (poles / quads etc) last for ages elsewhere, in the past – and can be quite interesting in their own right.
Just my 2p :)

[BazC]

I agree PP, I've started a new thread.

Baz

[Qslugs]

I'm confused. I thought you guys were looking for differences in the apps, strengths and weakness's and whatnot. If I am correct then what you guys are stating now is you want more of a respones like this Wingz R00lZ!!! Max Sucks! Down with LW! Wings 3d is the only real app!!!" I'm sorry, but I just don't see how my post was off topic.

[SGT.Squeaks]

They are talking about bazC's thread not yours Qslug. Yours was just right.

[Qslugs]

oh, nevermind then. Carry on my wayward friend.

[UserDelta]

nice comparison Qslugs, i just want to make some notes.

lw does handle N-gons, just not in real-time sub-d,
and for comparison you can still subdivide them the same way you would in wings just by using the metaform plus sub-d tool.

lw doenst have edges, but the disadvantage is very minor. edges have an advantage that it is one step more selective. say you want to bevel every other edge on an object, you can do that all at once if you select the edges, but you would need to do it twice in lw by way of points. and then also lw edge tools are free. but hey, wings is free :)

lw also has
spline tools
vertex weighing
a really large selection of free tools also

im not sure about the volume modeling thing, it seems more of a restriction then an advantage to me. eh.

but all props to wings, its an awesome modeler for its price.

[shrimp_chip]

Wings3D vs. Metasequoia / Metasequoia LE

I think Wings3D is great, but I find that I use Metasequoia more myself. It's a Japanese subd modeler that I don't think too many people know about.

http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/metaseq/image/interface_small.jpg

Get Metasequoia here:

http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/main_e.html

Latest beta: http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/metaseq/metaseq23_rc3.zip

English manual:

http://www.spies.com/~palevich/3d/metasequoia/index.htm

Similarities:
+ Both programs support subdivision-surface modeling.
+ Both programs have a very good virtual mirror mode.

Wings3D advantages:
+ More active development
+ Active user community.
+ Nendo-like workflow
+ Free for any use (as opposed to Metasequoia which is $50 shareware or Metasequoia LE, which is free for non-commercial use.)
+ Source code available. (Although it is sort of a problem that it's written in Erlang, a language that maybe 5000 people know, world-wide.)
+ Works on Mac and Unix as well as Windows.

Metasequoia advangages:
+ Can work in real-time subdivison mode.
+ More Windows-like UI.
+ Works with D3D and sofware renderer as well as OpenGL.
+ Realtime texture painting.
+ UV editing.
+ Faster UI, especially for large models.
+ Optional 4-way view (only in Metasequoia, not Metasequoia LE)

[KayosIII]

Most of these comparing A filleting knife to a swiss army knife... Wings is a dedicated modeller most of the other programs are general 3d tools. You use Wings3d with these other tools not instead of them.

[KayosIII]

I will say though that wings seems to be the app to have its own cgtalk forum before it even hits version 1.0... That is pretty cool.

[Sisyphus]

er...

about that last comparison...I'm a long time Wings3d user, (Extrudeface at Wings3d forums) as well as even longer time Metasequoia LE user.... may I add some to that -already good comparison, and add some comments to what already is mentioned.

-About the virtual mirror..I cried a lot about having it on Wings. What I can tell is Bjorn and other developers there are really patient people ;) I guess that much later they decided to add it. :)
By far, but really by far Wings3d one has come to be much better. Why? well... you need to weld both parts in Meta, and it takes its time. Tipically, F3 to get a front view, a mirror freeze, a quad selection to pick the border edges, and a weld with threshold. unless you wanna go ctrl+j each pair (joking) . Also, in some operation, the mirror can do weird things. Not all the operations works as they should. It also happened in WIngs, but lately haven't seen it. The speed of getting the vmirror in WIngs is amazing. The only thing to be aware of is you have a huge single multi-side face for the interior face (the plane for simetry) , you select it and when you switch now to vertex (v) all the "frontier" vertices are selected. Now "flatten" x (or the axe which is the case) and that's all. And this only one time, in case those vertices aren't co-plannar. As for the rest of times, you go freezing and unfreezing mirror as you wish. Only the push of the menu option, and a several minutes operation (the welding of vertices) is done in 1/2 second in Wings, perfectly.

-The tweak..well, there I must say I use magnet a lot and I prefer to have it like in Metasequoia, with the push of B, and B again to set the radius...I liked it (Meta's) more even than LW one.

-the real subdivision mode in Meta...hummm...those are patches, really...some not so good results in certain situations, specially with virtual mirror on...

-The Direct3d shading in Meta, yep that's an advantage among many other softwares. Is smooth, and allows very accurate work thanks to that. also, the continuos light change you can do with the light trackball helps a lot in modelling.

-The uv editing...hmm..there I can't agree at all...AutoUV is integrated now in WIngs, it's automatic uv mapping. It also allows manual "traditional" handling, and being in an experimental stage is rather useful now. It can turn into a really powerful solution. I myself have used it counting on a later on fine tweaking uv coords in Ultimate Unwrap.
The uv good part of Meta is the gizmos. Is really a good idea to add the Gizmos for positioning the projections, like in most 3d packages. But the uv editing, I don't think it's as good...probably in the shareware version (i don't use it but suspect many users do using the mqo import plugin for Max...I don't use Max, anyway... ) maybe is more powerful. The texture painting in Meta can be useful for some basic scratch and later on paint it better, yes.

-Faster for large models in Metasequoia. Well, I have never measured that, I don't know how fast is wings (I worked with meta only for low pol, realtime games models) but sure Metasequoia LE handles huge models -with lots of polygons- very well.

-4 way view...well I model characters. Never hope to say my self I am a pro or something, but I do model them. I never liked to model with 3 or four views, but that's too personal ;) And as you say, it's an option. :) i don't miss it, I mean, nor in LE neithe rin WIngs, but due to the way I model...I suppose.

-The windows like UI in Meta...well, some people say -not me- is overloaded. I really did get used to it. I DO love it, indeed. But I have learnt how straight forward and useful is WIngs's one, once you get used. There are always things to imporve, but there comes WIngs major advantage...

...It's CONSTANTLY improved...Perhaps metas shareware too, but I think not so quick, not so huge amount of improvement each bunch of time, and LE is frozen in 2.1 for ever..and 2.1 as you know is the one which let's you export to cob, x, dxf...(but not obj) Yep, you can do the mqo max plugin, but again...If I had Max, LW or Maya, I'd use less freebies ;) Even though, organic modelling I'd continue doing with wings, if my boss allows. ;)

-The license. there's no way even to buy metasequoia for me, for us. It's similar to what made Bjorng create wings. he wanted to buy Nendo and for then there where some problems to make a purchase. Some one correct me if I'm wrong...So I started to search again, and happily found WIngs.

-You can use the knife in Metasequoia, and it's powerful, but well used, the cut command is more useful in Wings. And Clacos plugin is really a good "knife". It's called DrawLoop, and I have had the pleasure to use it in version 98.04a if I remember well. Now is not re-compiled, he has less time now, I think.

-You have now better options to do a render than in meta, where there's a pov export, but again, frozen in its state, while in Wings there are POV, (very good already) rib export...

-The selection system. Wings blows Meta in that field. It's so cool, and allows such a speed.

-The extrudes are better. As some other basic commands.

- You can work with the tweak in virtual Mirror mode in WIngs, wich is similar to what Meta normal use is.

-Advantage in Meta is you can workin several modes at same time (vertex, edge, face at same time, or vertex,, face only, etc)...but...If you see, in wings often when do a command it jumps to the logical mode to work with then.

-The low pol modelling features , like turn edge, set a smoothing normals value, extruding, cuting edges, moving vertices, etc, are already in boths softwares.

-You can export some more standard formats in Wings like 3ds, obj, (this export is going perfect for me) , vrml with UV info, etc...

-You can position and create several lights in wings, which are exported for pov renders, etc...

-Perhaps some objs still can give some problems in WIngs in import, yet, but those are fixed just sending the model with a problem to bjorng, he have a look at themwhen he has time, to see if there's a bug or something. besides, Metasequoia LE also has also some problems in export/import.

-Wings extreme flexibility. Almost everything can be done with it. There are lots of possible ways to model with it. The more you go deep into it, the more it surprises you.


What is modelling the character, I must say that even been years with Meta LE, loving it (yet) a lot, I still find I am more quick modelling in Wings. Even so, Meta is another jewel, so I keep using it from time to time, for pure pleasure.

There many, many other fields and things to be comented on boths softwares, but I already have surpased widely the lenghth allowed here. Er...btw, I'm new here, hello everybody

You haven't mentioned some of the features I like more of metasequouia like the adding a vertice, edge or face in anyplace isolated in space, and some others, but for modelling, there a lot more of commands in wings than in Metasequoia. Though they are very powerful, I admit it.

I have been much time using both, but the fantastic improvement Wings has had, it made me switch definitely to Wings. Just as it is now, or even as it was in .98.04a, but it gets better all the time, much faster than any other software I've used before. It has a shining future, as it is its present. :)

I happen to end up talking a lot every time Metasequoia LE or Wings is mentioned. Sorry...I like both a lot.

I hope I have not broken some forum rule... :blush:

[clacos]

metasequoia doesn't run on my sytem, no menus (i extracted with directory structure etc.. all files are here); i managed to find the language switch anyway, trying blindly, then a window pops up saying :
'sorry, current version doesn't support english completely. Broken characters will be printed.'

and indeed, there is no menus, blank switches everywhere.

Any tips ?

i think i had tried an earlier version one or two year ago, and same problem. so it does look interesting (though too much like a max clone for my liking) but...

[S3D]

Well, I have tried them both out as well, though self confessing here I am a rather new to 3D.

The only thing I think that Metas.... has in it's favour is that it does move around larger objects much easier than Wings does.

I am not really into animation at the moment so I think the only things I would like to see in Wings are the paint tools from Nendo, and better handling of larger models. Other than these two features hey, I am totaly pleased with what Wings is capable of when it comes to intuitive modeling approaches.

Well back again after playing some mo with Metas... and I have ta tell you I am liking this thing more and more.... oh oh... haha, no it doesn't have some of the fantastic features as does Wings, but hey, it's still a pretty intuitive and fun little modeler, esp for free... :) Ah man...hehe

Thank you for the links eh... :D

[ambient-whisper]

Originally posted by wasamonkey
mirai constant windows popping up asking you are you sure is a pain and breaks workflow


really depends how you work. mirai only asks are you sure when you do destructive commands. since its undo system in 1.1 was horrible ( its a lot better with the env variable, but that wasnt supposed to be made public ) it was a security thing at the time.

it was something that they were working on at the time..and never got finished with.

that said. if you know how it works..you can get around its system almost entirely without even thinking about it. and those " are you sure" menus almost never show up when im using mirai :) its referencing system is something that no other app has done as well to this day.

[Sisyphus]

Clacos...I really like your Drawloop Wings plugin. Sorry I can't stop saying :) (I said many times at wings3d forum as Extrudeface ;) )

BTW, I have never had a problem in installing Metasequoia LE: I think the 2.1 comes with a install..do the installation. But from the english page. So as I do, as I never have a problem.

scroll down to the bottom.
http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/main_e.html

At least in w98se and ME it goes perfect.

The english switch is very important. All the status bottom bar and tips will appear in japanese, there's no workaround with that.

The manual I could see long time ago in english made by a user, was to basic. But surely that one posted in this thread is much better.

Remember to switch to advanced mode, in File menu. It's important...

I prefer using DefSmall.style for layout, I get easily messed with all the colourfull buttons.

Euh...I would be the last person to contradict you, but imho, Metasequoia is one of the most far away things from Max ;)

Indeed, is nearer LW, but it has a more newbie aproach. That said, I fully admire LW users, I hope I'll use it someday in some company. The magnet seems to be taken from it, and curiously, being one of the strong points of Meta, I like it more than in LW or anyother software.

But Meta is not free. That made me jump away of it. Its LE version is free , and totally functional but can't use in comercial projects, stated clearly in the english page :hmm:

I'd buy it due to it was my start into the 3d character modelling in a more serious way (indeed, I recomend it for starters in every way) but there's not either a way to buy it you're not in Japan. So it is a real pitty.

But then came Wings and the miracle happened :)

Anyway, they are to different UI styles, both also very different to Max UI style.

As always, is like everyone ends up using the cloth that suits them better. ;)

I myself have cheap and free software, Wings3d, Anim8or, Ultimate Unwrap, Metasequoia LE (used in free stuff), Gimp, Character FX, Pixia and Milkshape.

I love them all. :) And at least in the game making field, allow more stuff than much people imagine. :)

Wings3d and Metasequoia are perfectly suitable for high polygon modelling, imho. Everything in life has its limits, but I'd recomend specially give a serious (it deserves it) try to Wings3d.

As I said, I am liking more Wings3d since several months, for the adding of certain features that surpased Meta's advantages (imho) (besides the key thing of the license, and the fantastic effort Bjorng does.)

[S3D]

I am totaly enjoying playing around with Met.... but... just when I was getting going I discover that though one can subdivide say a whole model, one has to use the knife for something as simple as dividing a face... I much prefer in Wings selecting a couple of edges and hitting some numbers and "c" for predictable results or smoothing after a slight extrude for quick results...

the Met... shareware version allows for multi viewports which I wish Wings would adopt, as well it has manip handles which saves a click for those moves along axis times... but on the other hand Wings has more predictable loop than Met's belt function.. I do like how Met handles high poly models better than Wings ( too many poly's and Wings slows right down on my rig )
as well, speaking of which I don't really like having to use another app for assembly of many parts when ironically enough Wings has great Bridge/Weld capabilities... ah man... I know that "B" is pouring his heart out for this project and totaly commend the efforts to date as Wings really does rock...

Perhaps less on the UV stuff and more towards some better modeling and UI features... :D Just a thought "B", just a thought :D

[wasamonkey]

I do like how Met handles high poly models better than Wings ( too many poly's and Wings slows right down on my rig )

what proccessor? how much ram? and what vid card? OS?
and what kinda poly counts are you trying to work with?

my system is pretty slow compared to whats avalible today and handles models just fine cept for tweak magnet is a bit sluggish

duron 600, 384mb sdram, gf2 64mb and win2k
and handles 10k poly models without a big proformance hit

[Sisyphus]

The multiple viewports...well, I have been some years with the le version...and lot of time too with wings...I don't really see the need. I model mostly characters, player models..in perspective view almost all the time or hit f3, f2, f1 (with shift you obtain the other views) so switch very quicly...I like hotkeys.

The knife in Meta has some problems. The fr button in top tool bar allows to work only in face you see, or also in backfaces. that's something to keep in mind with knife. Also, that often you'll hav to join vertices at the end. Dragging a vertex (with move"v") and clicking right mouse button once you're over the other vertex is one way. Other is aproach the vertex, and the select the other (I always work so that lasso selection is activated drawing with any tool in empty space.You need to config this in lef panel. Other aspects are cofigured in Preferences. Knowing all this well is 50% of meta's power :) ) vertex dragging for lasso, or just shift clicking (with move tool u could move it accidentally) and hit ctrl j.

Many times you need this. Wings avoids this in many ways. Meta is more based in vertex operations, and imho it has some advantages in low pol. Wings looks things more as a whole.

Both are jewels, I know them very well, mostly Meta,(modelled some player models with it, been with it years) so is an error to trash any...the more cool tools you handle, the more power, as I see it.

The handling of huge models...I guess in Meta I work more in final res...due to being less comfortable to go back and force with several tools like virtual mirror/joined mesh. In wings I work with low cage all the time hiting the shiftl tab to see results every time...that trains me also to make my mind to subdivisions modelling, is way cool. BTW, I think performance has had a big imporve lately...I have handled very well 10k models with no slow down in my athlon1600, 256ddr, gf2mx32mb.

The this vs this is an error. It leaves you not knowing cool tools that you will come to see later. Taking a general 3d knowledge is better, imho. I have very good feeling for using both.

The modelling an ui tools..er...believe me, you yet have not see it deeply in action...;) It has such a modelling power.. The ui is something you need to get used to. I have handled nendo demo much long time ago, and I like wings soo much...Of course, Nendo is genial too, from it comes from.

I must say I am quicker with Wings even I know Meta much better and very deeply, so with this I am saying enough. I just know very well some of the modelling tools of Wings. But there's a lot of its power I only go discovering when i need this or that feature...you get surprised every day how much care as been put in this software. Similar sensation I have with meta, but the le was almost frozen, no more progress... If you're brave enough, and use babelfish.altavista.com you discover there's an update fro the mqle, but I tested it and besides some porblems with exports, didn't notice a valuable improve... For me, that and the le license/imposibilty to buy shareware disadvantage, are a big ones...

[BazC]

I'd have to agree on the high poly count issue. With 6000 polys Wings is pretty much unusable on my system but, for instance the demo of Cinema4dr8 handle higher counts than this with ease.

iMac 400mhz, 320Mb ram - not the best 3d machine available lol!

Does anyone know if Bjorn has ever commented on this and if he intends to improve performance on high density meshes?

OK, I'll probably never model something that big but it becomes relevant if you're trying to produce morphs for poser figures for instance.

Incidently I'm using an old version of Wings 0.97.01, which probably doesn't help matters!

Baz

[shrimp_chip]

Thanks for all the Metasequoia and Wings user tips!

A few comments:

+ How do you do character modeling from front-and-side-view drawings without using the 4-way view? I'm thinking of things like this tutorial:

Joan of Arc English Tutorial (http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp)

I've tried doing this tutorial in the demo versions of LW, Max, Maya, Wings, MetaSequoia, and so forth. So far it's been easist in LightWave and Metasequoia shareware, due to the realtime subd views and the four-way view.

+ The latest Metasequoia shareware beta is here:

2.3 RC3 (http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/metaseq/metaseq23_rc3.zip)

And the lates Metasequoia LE (freeware for students) beta is here:

LE 2.2 Beta 3 (http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mizno/metaseq/mqle22_beta3.exe)

The benefit of these latest versions is a more complete English translation of the UI.

+ Regarding Wings performance with large models - I think it depends on the OpenGL driver and card that you use. I generally had more luck using Wings with an NVIDIA GeForce series card than with an ATI 9700 card. Maybe we need to take up a collection and buy Bjorn an ATI 9700 to test with. :-)

[Sisyphus]

FIRST QUESTION

I don't think in a typical recent standard low pc of these days (hey don't know a word bout Apples, though I'd like to have one!) , that is, mine, an Athlon1600, with the specs I mentioned, has to go pretty well.

Why I do know this?...besides I use Wings often, and use to be more up to date with versions, I have just made a test...of course, number can change dramatically above this polycount, but this count is much higher than what I'll use for low cage editing (I said, I just use shift tab in wings to preview, as before i used to do a 2x o4x smoothing in Meta) , but noticed that in a software, which I will not mention now (no not harm its name ;) ) which is not Meta, nor Wings, the model was going veeery slow, horrible jumps while rotating world...

Is a software which usually handles models well...

well, with the model you see in this screen, same 3ds, I loaded in wings...no jumps, no probs with rotation, not a single jump!!

And if i read well, it says there 41,262 faces...But now I don't remember if last decision was "faces" are any face (a face in wings can be made of any number of sides) , or just tris. So at least you may double it if those are quads.

I was hoping it to go at least as slow as in that other software...

well, another surprise now...out of curiosity now testing in meta...hmmmm...I don't believe it. Something I made wrong. Anyway, having to use all the time meta, ultimate, cfx, anim8or,milkshape, etc, etc I am aware of many conversion and errors issues..so not likely I made an error...but..the fact is I am seeing some very tiny jumps in meta now, with exactly the same load...

Anyway, must say, both times I have tested with same other windows opened. I mean, ram is now low. This ie session opened and a pair of very heavy tray aplications...several folders. Exactly the same aplications opened both times. (leaving a 3d software only each time to do well the test)

Humm...that's why I don't use t onotice..if here a 42,262 model is running (surprisingly!!) well, how could I think of a cage that put my PC in problems...

SECOND QUESTION

Image Plane. You can do that also in Wings, but I'm never interested in those. I like to draw myself, but when it comes to model I prefer to "imagine" where lines go in space. So take in consideration I have not studied this methods. Surely someone can say better.

In Meta, which is the only time I used image "tracing", 3 parts in the UI u need to know:

-Top bar, where it says "ortho" or "persp" there u have several important visualization buttons (I talked bout fr before) You wish now to have img presse or you'll see nothing later ;)

-Left huge panel , advice, u need to that dinamiclly, have displayed always just what u need. So open the rolling tab called "command". Well, the bkImg is just that if u press it you'll be able to reposition (move) the image. The scale there's no other way than outside in an image software. My advice, do the exact pixels seen in the viewport if u wann see them all at once. As it does a terrible resampling when zooming out. It's workable, though...

-menu "View", "Set background Images". It's what allows u to load the thing. The plane will stay always paralell to screen although u rotate. So it's a matter just of go hitting F3 (front), f2, f1, shift+f3, etc, while you work.

And I recomend you to work with the adding vertex, edge, or face in space feature. That is, hitting "F".

With that you should have no problem. Just some details to work more eficiently, but you'll manage.

In Wings, there's a feature for this too. I haven't tried, so I cannot say how to use it. Someone here could tell you. I still gotta write an article today...glups..

[Sisyphus]

oops, forgot the image of the fluid-handling-model-loaded-in-wings...here it is...

[S3D]

wow, nice truck, just any two of those tires alone brought into Wings would gring my little rig to a halt. (seriously), and that's what I find frustrating.

as for the app bashing aspect to your reply there Sis, no, not at all, wouldn't think of bashing either of these two wonderful apps, rather simply attempting to point out some very real facts as I see em with hopes that this info finds it's way to the developer(s) so we can all have better tools, so yea, sometimes app comparisons (the this vs that ) can be a healthy thing for all concerned...( I have learned more from this thread and going back into each app than I did before this comparison thread... so I am cool with it and only wish it was always this civil when posting/reading such, which btw, way to go folks, this is one of the most civil comparison threads I have ever read, way cool :D

Now then, re multiviewports. Well, I downloaded the shareware version of Met.... as well the LE, and I kinda like having the multi vp found in the shareware version for quick previewing, though I admit that during the modeling process basically the perspective view is full :D no biggy I suppose, also no biggy to use the shareware version for working in, save as Met type file, open into the LE version for exporting to > fav app of choice. As for the toolbars, well I kinda like having them as well, though I also really like right click options found in Wings. Gee whiz... six of one half dozen of the other. hehehe. yea, they are both cool apps for sure.............. I would be totaly pleased with Wings should the high poly handling become better, perhaps a D3D software solution would take care of this little aspect. Yup, a slight tweak here and there and either of these two fine apps have a great future ahead, and thinking about this I would suppose Wings stands the better chance for quicker further development. It's going to be a great year ahead, I can feel it :D



PII 300/256 ram ATI Rage.

[Sisyphus]

well...the truck is not mine :) I just made a search in my messed hd, to find a higher count model than those i make...

One tire will hang your pc? but...you have PII 300/256 ram ATI Rage that says your signature... There must be some terribly weak point...more than aoften are the video card drivers...

Let us compare...I have an Athlon 1600...well, I prefer Athlons over Pentiums, but probably is more for price ;)

The card...an ati rage is an old ati card...the better the card the faster the drawing, as far as I know...I have an nvidia geforce2FX, which is newer but is low even in videogame area, so not to speak about 3d modelling cards...

The ram..mine is ddr, perhaps yours not, I don't know perhaps the bus the mother board, if it is older...Something strange happens there...

But my point is that that 46k polys model is rotating smooth inside Wings, which I'd never expect, and still was having IE and other stuff loaded at that time, and ram was dirty after having opened lots of IE windows at the same time an other software...and in w98se...

I mean, here wings go fast...Anyway, hey, if it can be improved, I will never complain.. :D ...seems no 3d software is quick enough... ;)

Anyway, if you upgrade your pc a bit yu'll enter in a new world.. ;)
A geforce4Mx, or a ti4200 (waay better) is something that would make a lot of good... probably more ram...But again, often is better to change it all. ;)

The cpu is...er ...a bit slow...even for gaming.. :) In case you play. I am not a player, but it's to set a reference point.

The main point is: the way you work in Wings is not working over a subdivided mesh all the time. Nop. You work in low cage, as that's much clever and seems is what it is built for... You need to learn to have a kind of "preview mind" to imagine what the smoothing preview will give you if u hit shift+tab..the more you avoid need of previews, the faster. Is something to be trained in.

With this, you need much less machine...it may seem not important but it is, when the model get complex and other reasons. If doing so, if performance is improved in this or that software, you'll simply go "even faster", not only ok ;)

[blackthorn3d]

shrimp_chip I setup the images fairly easier for join of arc tut one image faces z the other image faces x I had to rotate 1 image to get it in the x view. to switch to different views hit x,y,z or hold shift+ x,y,z and u = auto rotate and a= aim. once you get use to it its not to bad. I'm trying to get away from using ref pictures in the modeler and just model from looking a snapshot or a drawing from paper then I don't have to line up any images. and I read somewhere modeling without ref images will make you a better modeler.

[wasamonkey]

since a simular topic has come up I figure this may be relative

cheers

[S3D]

and I read somewhere modeling without ref images will make you a better modeler

I don't think so... though having no reference in front of you will tend to develope the creative uniqueness within for sure.

but...

Take for example the simple human lips... there I am popping them out two lobes on top and two on the bottom... the problem was... the two on the bottom were really on the bottom... of the lower lip, rather than being on the top of the lower lip. The bottom area is round, which I discovered looking in the mirror ( another method of reference :D ) the same day while brushing my teeth... ran back to the ole puter to get this area fixed before I forgot (I don't use reminder sticky's )...

Which brings me to the next part of my post here... Had to back things out a smooth so as to move those two bottom loby areas back to a arc on bottom and lobes on top... piece of cake when still fairly boxy... only a hand full of things to move around.

So, Yea... taking things out to the max in each step re- boxy 2 smoothes/divides... is the most critical area of box modeling... hence the name :) well... next to understanding basic shapes, basic math, and of course how to move things around... ;)

and...

once in a while you may find yourself creating a low poly model which upon reaching the proper mesh density for such, you find youself delving in and cutting things out for moving to finer detail and one or two more smoothes in mind to completion.

This is where having a good reference, beit a good set of photo's, grafX concept art or simply a rough sketch which includes said details... this assists you in remembering just what should be boxed out, where, before smoothing on to the next level to say start adding on those rivets or what have ya... stages... yea, that's what I think... then again I am a relative nub when it comes to 3D... :D

Which brings me to my last point for this discussion, which will be directed directly towards the title of this thread...

I really have to suggest here that it was Wings3D which truly allowed me to fly... :)

Don't get me wrong here... I like so many tools found in so many different apps and truly wish for all to be but universal plug ins so as I could pick and choose...

but... given that workflow dictates staying under one hood for as long as possible and/or required is the thing to go for...

to which, well... for me it was really a hard one to come by, this decision of which app...

I have really practiced a lot lately... just the basics... taking a cube and extruding out... within a whole host of different apps... and when I found one set of tools had this or that, then I would pop up a cube, or the latest creation, and check out to see if this other app approached things in the same manner, better or worse and why... from the perspective of one not familiar with the UI's of said various apps and so the mind set was really tuned towards seek and employ... in other words, nub or not we had a good idea of what we were trying to achieve, just had to gain the understanding of the tool swithes/buttons/icons/defaut settings/etc... keep in mind we are not talking about glitz procedures here... only the basic tools and how each app approached the procedures for each stage along the smoothy groovy road of box modeling...

anyhoo... as I was saying... it was Wings which allowed for the easiest time learning, basically because it had such an intuitive manner of selection, and the easiest dolly to spot rotate in 3D method I had found (Metasaquoia also has said dolly approach on mouse, but really lacks the more advanced tool set and methodology found in Wings )...

I found Wings3D had right selection of tools, which when discovered, offered me a speedy advancement in my modeling prowress... and to me this is what it is all about...

It's really hard to put into words just why any app feels more comfortable in anybodies hands, and why... The tools are mainly standard fair depending upon era of advancement throughout the industry as a whole...

but for all of those intangible reasons which are human science related and prove tangible beyond theory, when applied, and are related directly to how quickly one is able to learn, and apply... well... this, along with a solid, very tangible set of tools which allow you to truly get down and sculpt/box/push those poly's... this is why I think that Wings3D is pretty decent indeed... :)

Yea, there is always a wishlist for every app, and yea, everybody has their own particular wants, likes/dislikes... but all in all... come on... just look at it... this little app has gone beyond where Nendo left off... it is free, and continually building... it is standing right alongside many of the big apps, shoulder to shoulder and then some for box modeling... waddaya want?

but... it is only one app, and hey... if yas find yourself using other tools for a variety of reasons then... don't let anybody tell you different... use whatever it takes to learn and apply... in any area of 3D :)

One tool I would love to see runs much along the same lines as the new matrix extrude found within C4D v8.1, only having it simply generate a one cube in size, eight segment ring coming off selected face... oh man, how handy would this be... easy to select the four loops for bevel towards torus, do a cut and connect and voila... scale which ever and holy moly... the possibilities... yup, the ring tool please... :)

[ronald_hartman]

I've only recently started Wings3D but i LOVE it. Wow, is this workflow great! I've been trying 3DSMAX 5, XSI 3, MAYA 4.5, Lightwave 7 and Cinema4D as well and i must say that Wings3D is THE finest polygon modeler of the bunch! The only one that in my opinion comes close is Softimage XSI. What i really like about that program is:

- Interactive subsivision surface view (simply press + and - key to increase or decrease the subdivision level instantly)
- Polygon modeling mode is SUPERfast, but i guess that Wings3D is fast as well
- Some extra bells and whistles like: extrude along a curve. Just select a face and a curve and it extrudes along the curve. Apart from edge-loops and edge-rings, XSI has polygon-loops and rings as well (RC Tools script in XSI)
- Transparent viewing mode where the entire model is 50% perspective (MAX has that as well)
- Very powerful and intuitive polygon-add and edge-add mode.

One thing that i like about Cinema4D is interactively define the hardness of and edge, vertex or face. In Cinema4D you just select the parts, press and hold the '.' -key and now you can adjust hardness by moving your mouse! Very handy.

But...all in all Wings3D has the best and fastest modeling workflow for me. I guess that MAX and Maya are the slowest for me.

[Grgeon]

Can anyone make a deeper comparison between wings and maya?

I'm just getting into maya for modeling, but am intrigued by this free app that many ppl claim to be better :)

Thanks,
George

[SheepFactory]

sure ,

Wings: Working bevel , better workflow , tweak and slide , ability to bridge polygons , no manipulators , magnet tools.


Maya : none of the above .






:)

[tsuru]

I agree with Sheep on 6 of 7 of his points.... 'better workflow' is pretty subjective... while I agree with the statement, being the logical guy I am, I felt there needed to be more justification for that one. ;) I think the other 6 points all add up to back up the 'better workflow' claim anyway.

I'll add these:

- Real easy to flatten polys in wings. I haven't found one in maya yet.

- Easy to make edges 'hard' so that when you subD a mesh (smooth in maya) the vertices don't move (i.e aren't affected by the Catmull-Hull algorithm part). I haven't even found a way to do it in Maya yet... (Note I am not talking about Soften/Harden Normals)

- Converting selections selections is way faster.

- Edge loop selection works. Plus "Edge Loop Selection Walking" is possible.

- TWEAK MODE! :drool:

[S3D]

Maya not work on win98 systems... :p

[SheepFactory]

Originally posted by S3D
Maya not work on win98 systems... :p

Thats not a bad thing , if you are serious about 3d you should upgrade to 2k or xp much more stable and better memory management.


Oh and flatten poly's rock :)

in maya you can use a mel script called average vertex but its nowhere near as intuitive as the wings flatten.

[stunndman]

Originally posted by Grgeon
Can anyone make a deeper comparison between wings and maya?

I'm just getting into maya for modeling, but am intrigued by this free app that many ppl claim to be better :)

Thanks,
George

well, let's say it like this - i am using maya for about 15 months now - i started using wings just a few weeks ago and it was like an enlightment - i now have the freedom to model whatever i want to (on the low poly modeling side) many times faster than before - once you have set up your hotkeys in wings it's like flying

maya definitely was never designed with modeling in mind - maya can definitely do all the things wings can do - with scripts that have been written and scripts that could be written - and still maya will never be a modeling app that can compare to wings

i'm not talking about subdivsion modeling here or nurbs - just low poly modeling

hopefully wings will soon get soon a decent smooth preview function like lightwave's tab key or maya's cps - shift tab just doesn't do the job for me

[azazel]

Vector moves - You can move everything along any edge, edge normal, vertex normal, face normal, and some more directions too (of course you can scale and rotate along any vector, with magnets ;)).... for me much more useful than x/y/z constrains......No vector moves in Maya, so when I try to box - model somethig, I sometimes feel like playing piano in boxer's gloves ;) Of course there are scripts and plugs for Maya, which make modeling easier, but work is still not as fast as in Wings;)

[S3D]

Maya not work on win98 systems...
Thats not a bad thing , if you are serious about 3d you should upgrade to 2k or xp much more stable and better memory management.

ok, my system is slow and outdated, but for goodness sakes, I am able to push a poly around here and there... :) too funny... you folks act as though all 3D artists before PIV were not "serious" about 3D... they worked with what they had, as do I...

hey, I am having fun, it's only a hobby for me...

here's some of my feeble object doodles, along with some paint doodles, mainly toon critters of sort ... remeber this is but only a hobby eh, but, slow machine or not we are still able to box out from a cube, though still learning :) but yea... object by object, material by material... where ever the imagination takes me... and all on my dinasour system he he ( this is my desktop to remind me of the road along the way and some of the things to keep in mind for the next project's... sorry bout the size but... 20000 ... ah well, hopefully you gat the idea that we didn't fall off the truck yesterday( the day before maybe...haha ) but stiil realize we have a long but fun road to look forward to )

I know that I am no where near some of the splendid talent to be found here at CGT, but hey... we are plodding along ok like... :)

you wait till we get things ironed out a bit more... hehe... naw man, easy as she goes... just playing around is all... have mercy :D

but yea, a big rig and larger desktop(s) would be very cool for when I begin to work on larger and more complex models and/or scenes...

happy creat'n all :)

[MasonDoran]

here is my 2 cents....


Wings is nothing more then a poly modeller so it will never standalone. Its niche is to compliment existing workflows in other Apps...which i think is what it was intended to be. Wings is compact....which is what makes it such an excellent workflow with its basic interface and hotkeys.

The edge tools are currently unbeatable with anything i have seen in Maya or LW...both in speed and ease of use. These tools are essential for any organic modelling.

Tweak....after using it...its hard to imagine not having it.

Interface....clean and simple....took me a day to memorize most of the hotkeys. The tools are limited in number...so they all get their place on the keyboard...which is something the bigger apps cannot do. I think this is probably its greatest advantage.

Foundation......the basic core is solid and stronger then many of the apps out there. What it can do....it does very good...leaving this app with lots of room to grow and mature without having to go back and fix things.


Biggest disadvantage:

Still in development...a lot of necassary features for a broader range of needs still need to be implemented. As the app gets bigger and more complex....so will the workflow.

Maya


Nurbs and splines and the ability to convert to polys is a powerful toolset if you know how to use them.

Excellent snapping...something i do a lot of....which is possible but very clumsy with wings.

Flexibility. Modelling can be taken from many differant approaches...like nurbs...subd...paintfx....deformers....polys...physics and dynamics.

Its a full app....intended to do everything.

Widgets....a bit controversial in the wings forum, but i feels its more natural when the axis of the component is displayed visually and you can toggle between normal/world/local with same manip.....a very compact and consistent feature in maya. This feature makes doing multiple extrudes along curves and what not much easier to do then in wings.

Mel. dont like maya or need a tool or feature? if it isnt in the app its not hard to find it on highend. mel is very powerful and a lot of people are putting their stuff online for free. Tweak has been created for maya even! One nice thing is that with mel...a lot of scripts made on version 1 can still be used on version 4.5...

History. It might not make sense or seem useful to some if you come from LW or Max...but try this: Do multiple extrudes on a cube while preserving history then RMB and select all inputs....you get manip for every single extrude and with this you can tweak with a lot of control. And if you dont like it...you can just turn it off.


Disadvanages.

they seem to completely overlook some basic needs when they were busy coming up with NEW eye candy. Basics.....like soft selections and integrated edge tools and streamlined interface. Maya started out as a nurbs modeller......and now that SubDs are the rage....they need to go back and improve their poly tool set.


As the app grows...so does the interface it seems..which makes it clumsy with the sheer volume of hotkeys and dialog boxes. They have yet to rid the interface of redundant menu items that are just taking up space and making the workflow clumsy.


well that was more like a nickels worth...

[MasonDoran]

for those that want to flatten polys/verts in maya...its the same as scaling to the center of the manip...do it a couple times and it will be flat....also use the MoveCompent tool to scale faces along their normals...

[MasonDoran]

tsuru,

in Maya there a lot of different settings you can play within the Smooth node in the channel box...either exponential or linear

[tsuru]

Originally posted by 2byts
tsuru,

in Maya there a lot of different settings you can play within the Smooth node in the channel box...either exponential or linear


Thanks for the tip... sometimes I forget to read all the options in the option box....

apparently I was completely wrong... you DO make edges hard by going to Edit Polys>Normals> soft/harden.... You just have to make sure the "keep hard edges" check box is checked in the smooth tool options....

this still isn't as intuitive as wings though :)

[MasonDoran]

now dont blame the app ;)

[wasamonkey]

I wouldnt say that wings needs alot more tools to finish off its modeling tool set and doubt that it will become that more complex as far as modeling goes
bjorn also plans on implementing morphs for modeling and animation along with bones

wings is a stand alone modeler, tomorrow who knows what this butterfly will become

[MasonDoran]

wasa...

the poly tool set seems pretty much complete for organic things, yet having splines and something like the Live feature in Maya are valuable tools needed in a production environment.

Things like loft, revolve(or lathe), birail, booleans all depend on splines.....and are very powerful modelling tools for non-organic shapes. There are also deformers that come in handy.



Wings is kick ass at what its meant to do....so i cant wait to see what it will mature into.

[wasamonkey]

want nurbs why?
sds isnt good enough?
let hail the size of soccer balls rain down apon the eath smashing everything to hell if nurbs ever come to wings

praise bjorn

sorry but the idea of stitching is not what I consider fun

[azazel]

sorry but the idea of stitching is not what I consider fun

Nor do I.... no nurbs in wings please ;)

[ambient-whisper]

actually i gotta say that having nurbs capabilities could be neat if implemented correctly. or have some sort of conversion tool to let you model the base shape in sds. and then convert to nurbs for taking the model further?

[S3D]

I still suggest that simply having some sort of ring creation tool which would allow for the creation of say an eight segment, one cube in diameter ring to any selected face would go along ways... bringing in the circle to the cube so to speak... likened to the new Matrix Extrude found in C4D... only with open and close options... open making a half circle arc, and close obvious...

:D

[howardt]

S3D - I'm having a hard time figuring out what your ring tool does from your words. Any chance you could show us a picture?

[wasamonkey]

s3d its called a torus :D

like the guy before me
show a picture or 2 to show what you mean

cheers

[TorQ]

While I really like Wings and its tools I find that Wings3D and dedicated Sub-d modeling tools lack the flexibility of multipurpose modelers. I haven't used Max's poly tools much (I am not a max fan by any stretch of the imagination) but there is the option of switching back and forth between editable maeh and poly which adds an amazing amount of options. Being able to sketch verts, edges, polys as well as do all of the things Wings can do is IMNSHO much less restrictive than the Wings paradigm. I found that after having used Wings to model for a while and then switching back to modeling in Blender I felt that I would rather use Blender trading off many great tools just for the ability to create verts polys and edges from scratch. I can see myself in the future creating a really solid base model quickly in Blender and then moving over to wings to do the more advanced work...

[S3D]

Well, this is what I am talking about... say you had a shape boxed out like the little one here, you selected face, right clicked and chose Ring, or better yet circle extrude tool, and voila... a circle with center intact is added on... (uh Wasa, I think the torus in Wings has a few more faces than I was looking for here... this is base box level still this circle extrude

C4D has a sim feature in it's latest version called the Matrix extrude, only it basically lofts out a segmented arc which scales down to a taper shape with one end being smaller than the other... cool if you are using it to box out a tail, or set of roots or something, maybe a door handle, but it sort of stops in and around there somewheres, well ok, I am sure the creative sort could use this tapered arc in a ton of things... you may have to start scaling those loops and doing a ton of unrequired rotation to make into other basic shapes for things...

which... for all intensive purposes this circle extrude would IMHO go beyond the matrix extrude in that it is more universal a base shape from which to proceed from... from this small extruded example how many possibilities do you see... imagine...

eye glasses?, how about an electric cord head, or perhaps ends to some closed end wrenches, or a ratchet head, or quick belt buckle, or.... just think about it... this one little tool would go a long way towards bridging some sort of circular, lofting type shape creation... yea there are many work arounds now, but with this pop out the circle tool, it would make for some pretty quick modeling... which is after all why we all like Wings so much anyhoo... because it is quick and easy to use :)

Hey, maybe I am just dreaming here, but I really think this leap frogs over the matrix tool in it's simplicity as well it's potential for shape creation possibilities... you do the math.. anyways... it is something I would find myself using a lot actually... :D so simple yet so much potential... or not... whats the concensious here?

[wasamonkey]

yes I think a tool that would allow this would be good
and if bjorn implements mirai style morphs then we could extrude circles using morphs :D

torq there are a few tools that wings lacks
the rest is the artists ability and imagination

for example
look at rocket3d.com
the work there is amazing even tho it has even less tools than wings
for me wings is the better tool
use what works for you

[Reyals]

Wasn't there a parametric modelling plugin for wings that would do just this sort of thing? GGAlien or something ...
sorry I don't have more details than that ...
but thought I'd throw it out there.

steve

[wasamonkey]

its still around ggalien is a seperate tool that had a plugin to link it to wings tho i never played with the plugin so I dont know how the plugin worked
it might have directly linked sorta like some of the rendering tools for wings
or may have been a simple import export plugin

cheers

[MasonDoran]

The thought of patch modelling makes me shudder....but rails and lathes are essential tools in all of the major 3d apps.....with its output to nurbs or polys....they still use curves to make them.

Whats wrong with nurbs if you know how and where to use them?? I grew up on Illustrator and Freehand....and used the paths tool tremendously....so to have them in 3d is also nice.

The point is....there are modelling techniques like projecting a curve on surface that are extremely useful for modelling. I dont think anyone would complain about a tool like that. And why not extrude along a curve....for objects like springs or wires and what not? The current workflow in wings makes these techniques extremely cumbersome and then if you have to tweak it later on its not any easier.

You guys know what this thread is about....its about finding ways to improve the tools we use.

[Per-Anders]

four workflow issues for me and wings. though i must warn i'm not a dedicated wings user, so maybe all of these have/can be addressed and i just don't knwo how.

firstly and more importantly i don't like the mosue being locked if i have a modifier key down (for instance to rotate the viewport). only a combination of the modifier and the mouse button should actuall lock the mouse positon, neither modifier on it's own, or mouse button on it's own. this is how pretty much all otehr apps i've used work, and i guess i'm sloppy, but it does slow me down enough to stop wings being that enjoyable an experience when i swap form cinema or maya.

secondly, it's a bug really on a mac, using a m$ intellimouse explorer the middle mouse button doesn't work at all :(, it works fine in other apps.

third, i actually quite like to be able to set up a few button menus at the side for having access to tools, that's something i'd love to have just because there simply aren't enough keys on the keyboard, and i'm not a huge fan of RMB menu naviagation to what i want to use.

fourth and final, i like to be able to see and setup my softselection area, like you can in lightwave. magnet mode s nice, but i'd like to be able to not have to reset it's size with each use of a tool on a different verteex/edge/poly. so i'd sooner have a magnet mode, and switch that on and of for all tools, and in the switching on set the actual radius of the magnets influence.

anyhow, that's my thoughts on wings coming from a cinema, lightwave and maya persepctive.

[BazC]

mdme_sadie, I use an MS optical mouse (an intellimouse but with 3 buttons) on a Mac and the middle button works for me. I haven't got the MS software installed though, I don't know if that makes a difference?
Worth a try?

Baz

[Per-Anders]

it may do BazC... i have the software installed, and i do have to switch it off for maya ple, but with wings you can't select the actual modeller app from within the bundle using the intellimouse explorer software :( i wonder if there's any workaround apart from jsut switching the software off altogether.

[BazC]

mdme_sadie, while I have your attention, could you please read my "macintosh users help" thread and let me know if you have similar problems. There don't seem to be many Mac Wings users around and I'm not getting any feedback. I'm tearing my hair out over this one.

Thanks
Baz

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