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ruscler
02-11-2003, 09:24 PM
"As it's obvious you are dissatisfied, perhaps we can discuss what we
can do to change that- please give me a call, or let me know a good
time to call you-

Steve Sappington
Hash, Inc.
400 West Evergreen Blvd.
Vancouver, WA 98660
360-750-0042
-3D Modeling and Character Animation Tools!-"

So I called him this tuesday before noon, and was on the phone with him for over an hour, and yes I am long winded. I wanted an apology first of all, from way back when I first aquired AM and when I sent my first bug report which did not go well. And so he did and said that it was a misunderstanding, but that there is no shit list of people he keeps for treating one person differently from another. I pretty much told him flat out that was the impression that I have gotten. So we squared away any misgiving on that part and I plan to start with a new leaf on that matter. This he did say that he and everyone at hash is edgy in the respect that if someone comes on strong and bash hash that he will return fire with negativity. He takes it personally, and I suggest that he only needs to hear the person and acknowledge the person, and then return thoughts without character attacking. It is something that I am trying to do myself, and not easy to do. I only hope that before Martin send in a post that someone over at hash has the chance to proofread it before he dish out another MoFo post.

As far as someone collecting all the rants on the behalf of Steve and then personally handling it, he would rather get each individual bug report and not count on the other person to do it for you, for 2 reason, 1) how can you make sure that someone else will do it for you, and 2) it will also give him a guage of how many are getting this same problems, so collectively he can find out more about the problems. The forum and the Irc chat is a good way to find out if you have user error or a active bug in the system, from asking your friends,or Steve would prefer that you write to him directly, but not on the list.

I told him how I felt about V9.5 and how I gave up using it, and even bought the V10 CD but return it before the 30 day expiration money back. I felt that when I pay for the upgrade that I pay for it in faith that I would have a finish product that I can use.

I told him that buying the upgrade entitle me several things. 1) group support, and I cant get that if they get booted. 2) submitting bug report and not be put on the so-called shit list. 3) all the feature that are listed on the software to be in working order at the end of the release.
I felt that I did not get that when I paid for the V9 CD upgrade, after we clear up on what was transpired, Steve has offer to give me a free upgrade to V10 CD. After all this has been done, I am sure that V10 will be a good year. This has been the biggest FUBAR that I have seen Hash community has gone thru, and I would find it implausible, that Hash corp would let this slide any further. His request to speak to me was in the right direction. And so I would urge all of you who have felt disatisfy to rectify the situation and call Steve personally, the number is posted in his message.

My conclusion is that once a breakdown start around the bug report and communication with the company, then it was nothing but downward spiral for the hash community. So I have been granted a free upgrade for my calling him and telling him what would make me a happy camper of the Hash community. So I would like to see more hash user get more involve with the IRC and/or the new hash forum at CGtalk, untill hash get their own forum going. But I would also would like to see more Bugs report be sent in and make Hash responsible for each cases of bug report. If you feel that hash was unfair and rude to you for the response, feel free to email me, or write to the Forum, but not the list, and I will get to the bottom of this, but be forewarn that if you get into any character attack game playing I will find out! and not play that game. The communication between the user and the company NEEDS to work in order for the user get a working software, and the company to EARN a living. So a follow up discussion and clear up any misunderstanding from Steve is a way for them to EARN my trust,and for them to Earn a living.
As for the loyalties of the Hash corp. speaking on hash behalf, I have no problem with that, but if you get into character attack for speaking how they feel, whether good or bad, then your asking to be crucify by those who did not feel as you did. The forum to me is a good place to find out if it user error or a bug and if you get frustrated and lose it, well then take a deep breath and count to ten then write to Steve directly without provocation. He promise that he can tell you if its user error or a bug, and especially if you can repeat it. If not and after awhile so many people submit the same problem. Then he knows he has something. Then feel free to write to the forum so I know that I am not the only one with that problem and maybe discuss work around and such. untill hash get to the bottom of it.

1) the Forum a safe place to discuss why you cant do something, and not open for bashing those who are frustrated. Again the rules for the list and forum is different. If you love hash and wants everyone to know that, no problem, doing so should not open you up for crucification.
2) the List a place to submitt WIP or something that you think everyone wants to hear.
3) All problems and feature request can be submitted to Steve@hash. And Steve would like that to be foremost.

After all that been said, we discuss the ongoing feature and flaws of the past and solutions. But the main things is getting a working relationship between user and the company back on track, and be able to communicate the bug's report and a response, or just a simple acknowledgement of the bug report being sent in.

Nonproductive
02-11-2003, 10:09 PM
It's a good step - and I applaud Steve and/or Hash for taking the time to email and talk with you.

Also a pat on the back for you for holding your ground when you got "face to face" with Steve.

However, I think Hash needs to take a more active stance and offer *anyone* that purchased the v9 subscription a free v10 subscription. Martin admitted it was junk, we all know it was junk...swallow some pride and make ammends.

I don't think anyone should have to call Steve and make a case for themself as an individual when it has been well established that v9 was "a bitch" for everyone - including Hash apparently. That's a tremendous waste of time for all involved. There is enough info here in various threads that Hash can figure out what went wrong with the customers and software and it is easy enough for Steve to reach out, as he did with you, if he needs further info.

ruscler
02-11-2003, 10:44 PM
I had stated to Steve that a clean sweep for all those that got V9.5 be given a free upgrade. But then what do you do with those that upgrade to V10 from V9.5?
I suggested that any new feature could be sold as extra plug-in and those that have paid for the V10 get the plug-in free. Something to think about at least. However Steve would rather have each person calls to him and air out the bad feeling for Hash and see what he can do to fix it, I think it would be a more personal touch and getting the community back together. What can transpire across the email is nothing like talking to the actual person, and less chance of losing the actual intent of both party. At this point in the history of Hash Animation Master, I dont think either party wants to chance any further drifting between us.

And if you make the call there is nothing like a face to face affirmation of both parties to get out what needs to be done to repair this relationship. It is so easy to see just words on the internet, and not feel anything for the person, or the will to live up to each others integrity. It is easier to go into battle and shoot randomly to the enemys you hardly know then to shoot down someone staring you in the face. And that someone was Steve asking me what he can do to make me happy about Hash, how can one draw fire after that?

dfaris
02-11-2003, 11:36 PM
I too have recived this email from Steve and have had a conversation with him about the concerns I have has with hash in the last few weeks. I had a nice civil conversation with him about what it will take for me to use AM. I pretty much said all the stuff about the renderer and creases ect ect he has said that they are working on both of these issues and that they do listen to the user group and care what we think.

I told him that I think it is good that they are reaching out to the users and trying to fix this big mess. I also said this has happened because we like AM and want it to be a kick butt app it that simple.

He is going to send me the V10 CD also so that I can have a working app in which to use. He said that he is trying to get intouch with all the people that have voiced a problem with AM but if he does miss some people that they should and are welcome to get in touch with him by email or a phone call.

I must say that this is a good thing that Hash is doing and I'm happy they are doing it, it will go a long way in restoring my faith in them. For now I'm going to keep watching and see how AM turns out over the next few versions.

Hookflash
02-12-2003, 12:25 AM
This is definately a *major* step in the right direction. I wonder if any of this would've happened if this A:M forum had not been created? Gotta love public forums;)

Rangler
02-12-2003, 01:04 AM
I re-subscribed for 2003 for a number of reasons and expect nothing more than what I've recieved via FedEx. For those that purchased the v9.0 CD as new users deserve more. Perhaps a boxed copy of v8.5p++. V8.0 contained a fairly complete manual with instruction that corresponded with the software. That alone makes A:M easier to learn.

My checklist:
Firstly, I learned alot from using v9 last year. Even though the renderer was limited, good image quality could be obtained using post techniques.
The experience gained outweight the negitive aspects.

Secondly, any of the work-around techniques developed and shared on the list helped me to advance in efficientcy. Even with the number of changes to the animation tools or interface, one could continue to model, rig/re-rig and animate to some degree for the most part.

Thirdly, my personal wish is for the success of Hash Inc. They have been visionary and an inspiration to the industry when it came to character animation tools. As far as I know. No application or plug-in has been able to compete when it came to A:M's usability by right brained individuals. If Hash were to consider expanding their market, they could easily adapt the software to character animation plug-ins for the various mainline packages.

Hookflash
02-12-2003, 01:12 AM
I purchased A:M 9.x as a new user. Even though I believe I was thoroughly screwed in this regard, I would still be willing to pay $99 for the upgrade if 10.x starts getting glowing reviews (in other words, Hash would have to release a demo or something so that non-biased 3rd parties could review it).

Paul L. Ming
02-12-2003, 06:43 AM
Hiya.

From a totally disgusted AM98/99 user...this news is like a ray of hope. :) I gave up on AM because of the crashes. Some were bugs, and reproduceable. But a lot of crashes I experienced were totally random as far as I could tell.

I think I'll hold out for a few months after the next version comes out to see what the verdict is. Then maybe I'll upgrade.

One thing that I think needs to be done; Hash needs to create a mailing list and call it "Bug Hunt" or something. People can join, and post 'bugs' that they can reproduce. Hash can monitor that list no problem (they have no problem monitoring the current list). When someone posts a reproducable crash on their system, they list their system (OS, CPU, etc), and the steps they take to get a crash. Now, others on the list can give it a go and either yay or nay it. After three dozen people with various set ups post their results, Hash would have a HUGE head start on figuring out where to look for the bug (like, if everyone who crashes is using an AMD cpu, for example). Right now, everyone using AM is more or less "in the dark" when it comes to crashing. It could take a while for Hash to get back to you, or maybe they can't reproduce it but other people can...and those other people might have work arounds and whatnot.

Anyway, it's nice to see that Hash is starting to move in the right direction! Keep it up Hash! :)

Dearmad
02-12-2003, 03:47 PM
Wow. I have to say this is all some pretty suprising and GOOD news. Despite Martin's public letters, it sounds like some "behind the scenes" efforts in the RIGHT direction are being made.

Good on Hash and on you guys for talking to Steve!:bounce:

dragonfollower
02-12-2003, 07:50 PM
After my problems with 9.5 I decided to go ahead and do the same. I stated my case in an email and received the following response:

"we stand behind v9.51e as a useable version, however, if you feel you
are entitled to a free v10, you are welcome to CALL me and make your
case-"

I just was wondering what people's opinions of 9.51e have been? It just seems that people would not be wanting a free v10 upgrade if 9.51e worked fine.

BUT, I'm willing to give it a try. Here's hoping...

-bRiAn

ruscler
02-12-2003, 11:48 PM
I was having problem with the project workspace window getting garble, however I have not been able to repeat it by anything that I do particular. So I am setting up a video camera to record it so they know its there. other than that I do like the new inerface, and the hair particle way more robust than the past version.

So I did not have luck with V9.51e and yes I know that hash will stand by that release version. Steve said that somebody was able to do the whole tutorial video using 9.51e.

I am not hearing that V10.5 is doing that, so I hope for the best, and if not I will dig deeper and report a bug.

If you are able to reproduce the bug, send it in to Steve, they may just give you a upgrade or fix the bug, either way you cant lose.

JTalbotski
02-13-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by ruscler
I other than that I do like the new inerface, and the hair particle way more robust than the past version.



In what way is the hair particles more robust? More robust than 9.51e? Or more robust than 8.5?

Jim

ruscler
02-13-2003, 02:45 AM
more robust then 8.5, I could never do a body full of hair in animation, but when I dabble in one of the version 9.5 it didn't fall apart. although the hair didn't come close to sasquatch level. But at least it render it out. I think gilles push it with one of the character that had total hair on the body. I use one of my character and had super long hair, really push it in thickness and length.

In 8.5 I would use hair sparingly, and mostly stay with toon mesh type hair and just add the particle to the end of hair such as ponytail. much like this!

http://russellmania3d.pair.com/images/hair.avi

My Fault
02-13-2003, 03:21 AM
Wow, gone a few days and look what happens! It's great that you finally gave them a call ruscler. I've said all along that they were good guys (especially Steve) and that if you give Hash half a chance it would work out.

Great to see the positive vibes flowing, hopefully we can all work together and get this software to do what we want it to do. :thumbsup:

Commiekeebler
02-13-2003, 09:57 AM
I didn't call Steve, but Steve called me. He turns out to be a really nice guy. He offered me v.10 and I accepted; this conversation did more for my perception of the company than all of Martin's speeches put together :) ... let's all hope for a good, stable, solid 2003!

Peace.

hoochoochoochoo
02-13-2003, 12:47 PM
shame I and many others aren't in the same time-zones as we won't get any phonecalls for vs10 but I'm pleased the air is cooling down, I've read some pretty harsh statements from people on some of these threads including some who've never even touched AM and calm is settling in.

This public forum has really made some difference as I doubt version 9 would have ever been "outed" for what is was.

If the manual issue is addressed - why not ship the Dave Rodgers book for an extra fee? I may sign up for the next subscription.:wavey:

gra4mac
02-13-2003, 07:47 PM
I too have made my peace with Steve. I think he is doing a great job in a tough situation. I'm looking forward to my copy of v 10. I've been very happy with v 10b6, the full version should be awesome. I'm also happy that the focus of the forum seems to turning toward a positive future. We needed a chance to vent and raise the important issues. I hope we never have to do that again.

Cheers, Graham

johnathan
02-13-2003, 07:57 PM
i bought v9, tried it a few times, got confused and annoyed, then went back to 8.5p+... warts and all.

i bought v10 at the end of last year, and it looks pretty, and is getting more stable, but i'm waiting for arcticpigs to be ported to it before wrapping my head around relationships.

bottom line: if they get v10 working like it should, then i'll be happy that i kept my subscription going. it's obvious they have some awesome code jockeys. if they really want to move up and embrace the intermediate 3d crowd, then i'm with 'em.

but, if v10 can't deliver the mission critical features people seem to all agree on -- stability, less creasing, stability, and improved rendering -- then i'll be one angry little monkey.

-jon

d4rk
02-13-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by johnathan
but, if v10 can't deliver the mission critical features people seem to all agree on -- stability, less creasing, stability, and improved rendering -- then i'll be one angry little monkey.

Let's not forget stability ;)

gra4mac
02-13-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by d4rk
Let's not forget stability ;)

Iv'e been using v 10beta6 and find it to be very stable, about as good as 8.5p+. I can do lots of things I could not in 9.5. I'm not yet into the deeper functioning of A:M, I just want a good stable CA app, and v10 seems to work well.

Cheers, Graham

Nonproductive
02-14-2003, 12:55 AM
Earlier today I went to the Hash website to see if there was any indication of changes there. I was surprised to see an A:M 2003 Upgrade link right on the main page - considering all the ruckus going on lately. (http://www.hash.com/am2003/)

One link off there was titled "More to come for free with your upgrade in 2003." Upon clicking it I was kind of shocked to see no mention of the new renderer, creasing, etc... So I decided to call Steve and find out what the deal was.

He asked me straight out "Are you a happy customer or unhappy customer?" I said "neither." That I felt the software had potential but after paying for the 9.5 release I was going to pass on v10. I explained that I was unhappy with 9.5 and eventually uninstalled it and moved on to other software. I also made it clear to him that my reason for calling was to discuss A:M's future - the issues on the forum here and Hash's take on the whole thing - and that I was *NOT* calling for a free v10 upgrade, nor did I expect one. I am a hobbyist, I didn't lose any business due to v9 and while I was not happy with it - in hindsight, I could always have asked for my money back. I was not raised in such a way that I look for handouts and would *never* expect more the I deserved from anyone or any entity. (which might explain why I am always broke) Hash wants to sell boxes - I bought, I didn't' take action at the time and the onus was really on me at that point.

With our cards on the table we proceeded to talk for 45 minutes or so. His overall tone was humble, yet firm in their stance.

What I came away with:

1) Splines are what A:M is all about. They don't, at this time, intend to devote resources to any other modeling method. Too much of the software is based around the spline technology to change course at this point. Something I wholeheartedly agree with.

2) They are looking at methods of minimizing creasing - both within the code and through further refinement of the "porcelain.mat" They have spoken with some users that have offered up alternative ways of rendering patches that may help, and they are working to implement some new ideas. We also agreed that as one becomes better at modeling you tend to have less creases - though I countered with the fact that new users to 3D can download Wings3D which is an exceptional modeler - they should not have such difficulty with Hash - since they are targeting the "home user."

3) Import / Export of other formats is mostly a marketing thing. They have positioned themselves as a "one stop application." However, they *will* support the efforts of folks looking to aide the community with converters. Out of the box they will proved 3DS and DXF import abilities but he seemed a little reticent about them. I pointed out that there is a tremendous library of free models on the web and by cutting their users off from them they are limiting themselves. He agreed, but restated that it was, primarily, a marketing decision and most likely would not change. Not thrilled on this one - but if they beef up the SDK it will allow for 3rd party plugins like Arthur's.

4) They are very willing to extend the SDK with whatever features folks want. Caveat: You *must* *must* *must* call and talk with them if you are a developer. If you express a need for something in the SDK they will do what they can to provide it. One negative here - they simply do not have the resources to do a MAC SDK at this time.

5) The new render engine in 10.5 is intended to be a part of 10.5 - not 11 or 12. They feel the existing render engine handles most things well - with a couple of exceptions and they are trying to address those exceptions in the new render engine. Ironically, Steve said they they are going for highest quality though possibly slow with their engine - in direct opposition to Martin's statement about his users not tolerating a slow renderer (and from the poll here - we obviously will) I didn't beat this one up because there isn't much to say until we see it in action.

6) I harped on stability and bugs. My stance was this:
The program runs well for them because they know what the software expects them to do. The veteran users know the way the software wants you to work and so find it more stable then new users coming to the application. New users are naturally going to find the program unstable because they don't know how to work it and instead of robust error checking the program crashes and burns. Lots of crashes = bad publicity and the reputation of being a notoriously unstable app.

Steve agreed. He stated that the reason he asks for detailed bug reports is because he works with the program all day and knows how it works. If you tell him "Lathe a spline" he will most likely do it the "right" way while you may be doing it differently. This is also the reason they are not entertaining the idea of an online bug report system. They don't want you to be influenced by the way someone else reported it. For his part - he finds email to him works best because he can then find the "link" between various bug reports that will lead them to a fix. He also agreed that the program should *not* crash if you do something wrong. However, because they know how it works - they usually test it "the right way." All he asks is that you send him an email with the steps you took to crash it and they will prioritize the fix. If they don't know how you crashed it, they can't fix it. Fair enough.

Throughout the conversation he stressed communication between the users and company. He essentially said this: If you have *any* issue with the software or company call. If you don't want to foot the bill for the call - send him an email and give him a time and number to call you. He does not believe in working out potentially emotional issues over email or forums. I agree with that. Again, he stressed - call for *any* reason - he *wants* to hear from the users. Surprisingly, he said very few folks are reaching out to them through this whole thing - and he would prefer more folks talked to them.

I had to run out the door to meet some family for dinner, so I cut the conversation short - not all of this is fresh in my mind. Ask questions if you have them and if we spoke about it I will fill you in.

Another note - as I got off the phone he said "Do you want the v10 upgrade for free?" I said "that's not why I called, no." and he replied that he was sending it out to me anyway - since I was willing to give my time for them. I am a firm believer in people being compensated for their work (all the registered shareware on my machine is testament to that) I would have been more then happy to pay for v11 once the kinks were worked out (if they are worked out) Steve's offer was very gracious. Whenever the CD arrives I'll put A:M back on my machine and see where v10 and the future takes us.

jdates
02-14-2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by ruscler

.... The communication between the user and the company NEEDS to work in order for the user get a working software, and the company to EARN a living.


I couldn't agree more. I'm glad you and Steve kissed and made up!!
I knew you boys could play nice.

Hehe.

Well written,

jdates

amsmf
02-14-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Nonproductive
5) The new render engine in 10.5 is intended to be a part of 10.5 - not 11 or 12.

I'm a bit confused by what that means. Does that mean the new render engine is just an experiment? Or, does it mean that they aren't going to put it off until 11 or 12?

Sorry if I'm just being dense... I've been sick:hmm:

Kevin Sanderson
02-14-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by amsmf
I'm a bit confused by what that means. Does that mean the new render engine is just an experiment? Or, does it mean that they aren't going to put it off until 11 or 12?

Sorry if I'm just being dense... I've been sick:hmm:

Get better soon.
I took it to mean that it is *not* being delayed as some folks like to speculate.

"The new render engine in 10.5 is intended to be a part of 10.5 - not 11 or 12."

Kevin Sanderson
02-14-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Nonproductive
I agree with that. Again, he stressed - call for *any* reason - he *wants* to hear from the users. Surprisingly, he said very few folks are reaching out to them through this whole thing - and he would prefer more folks talked to them.



I've always been an advocate of emailing them or calling them directly. The list and this forum are not the perfect answer for support.

Thank you for posting your call. Maybe it will get some more people to act positively. This can only help in the long run.

Nonproductive
02-14-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by amsmf
I'm a bit confused by what that means. Does that mean the new render engine is just an experiment? Or, does it mean that they aren't going to put it off until 11 or 12?

I'm sorry :) I worded it a little funky.

I asked if the render engine in 10.5 was going to be *part* of 10.5 or if it was just there for testing per se. The response was that the multipass render engine will be part of 10.5 to address the one or two situations that the current render engine has trouble with.

penguinpavilion
02-14-2003, 10:09 PM
I wish I could say it went as well as others. I am not sure what either Steve, and I were out to accomplish.

Let me first say that I write much more clearly than I speak. I need time to compose my thoughts. I would never have been a good candidate for the debate team. And a debate is what I was in for . . .
First I told him that I was an unhappy new user as of 2002, and was planning to move on silently until I had seen this trhead. So, I thought I would give them a chance.

I went through my list of issues:
1) Honesty in advertising
Actually all I did here was give them props for having updated the marketting materials for the front page -- removing the words "Professional Power" from the "even an artist can afford line.
2) Being up front about the nature of the list
I said that it was cool that the list is tightly moderated, but that they shoudl be more upfront about it being that way. This was a bad idea to bring up, he became very defensive, and I had to push the conversation away from this. (This was my first hint he *thought* he knew who I was.
3) Bug submission guidelines
I suggested that, though you don't want to taint the bug reports, something more than "Give us the *exact* steps might be useful. What could be more useful than that? Hey we have 15 years of exeperience with this stuff. And true enough, I don't have a suggestion of what these guidelines should look like, OK we are going nowhere here. I suggested we move on.
4) Feature introduction/changes in minor revisions of the software
This was a huge issue for me last year, but I could only come up with one example distortion boxes. I told him that I had bought anzovins tape last year and distortion boxes had changed. I know it was a minor change, assignment from a group rather than a bone, a minor change I know but one that caused me quite a bit of wasted time. Steve went into a speech about how they had no control over third parties creating instructional material based on unreleased features. He even told me about Hash's frustration with the myriad of errors and omissions in David Rogers book. "But what can we do, tell them they can't make videos or write books."
5) Documentation
I said I want documentation where I can look up *all* features with a little description of what they do. He said that if there aren't descriptions then there are example projects. "There are? Where do I find them?" He said he was sure that they existed at one point, if they don't now. OK, I am tired by this point and want to move on with my day.
6) Stability
I didn't even bother here, I was getting frustrated, and just wanted off the phone, and stated that fact.

Each item came with a rationalization. I was asked are you unhappy or happy. I said unhappy, and was considering moving on. He asked what would make me happy. My mind swimming at this point, he had refused to acknowledge any of my points, "I don't know."
"Would a free upgrade do it?"

"I don't know. If everything worked like it was supposed to, like if distortion boxes were poseable - "

He told me that distortion boxes wouldn't work like I wanted, and that there was nothing he could do. He couldn't see giving a free upgrade if it wouldn't make me happy.

My mind is numb at this point so I don't point out that the rest of my sentence was " - and every other item being advertised works and the app is stable I would be happy to PAY for the upgrade. All I could come up with was "You may want to change how you advertise the software then, it states clearly on the page that distortion boxes *are* poseable."

He quickly put me on hold to investigate this, I thought about haning up but figured he would call right back so I waited. He came back, and stated sure enough they work the way you want them to, but that is new to 10 so there is no way I am giving you a free upgrade.

OK, it had been 1/2 hour on the phone, and he wasn't listening so I just said I guess I should quietly move on like I had originally planned.

So he asked explicitly that I do it quietly, and quit bashing Hash online. I said that wasn't my habbit, I may be vocal, but I am not a basher per se.

He said, "isn't your online name DearMad?"

It all comes clear. I live in Portland, DearMad advertises his location as Portland. So this whole time Steve thought I was someone else.

He did state his goodwill, and invited me up to VanCouver to see them. But I don't see any reason to go, I am not up for a debate, never was, and even though I have seen others supposedly get assurances that some of my issues are priorities, Steve never gave me that impression. He was defensive the entire coversation, except when I finally said I would be moving on. Then he wished me the best.

Well, I am not convinced that Steve is really hoping to address real user issues as much as he is out to find another avenue to silence Hash Bashers.

I guess its just time for me to quietly move on.

My Fault
02-14-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by penguinpavilion
My mind swimming at this point, he had refused to acknowledge any of my points,

No offense Penguin, but it doesn't sound like you really made your points very well. Some people really are better when given time to think what they want to say and maybe that's what you need. Plus it sounds like the call was tainted by the fact that he thought you were someone else. BTW, I do think Steve is making these calls because he genuinely wants to address the issues.

Just a suggestion if your not ready to call it quits, try composing an email and sending it directly to Steve explaining your points. I understand if you don't wish to but it probably couldn't hurt. Hate to see you quietly move on as you obviously have some good ideas. Good luck to you either way :thumbsup:

gra4mac
02-14-2003, 10:35 PM
Too bad your conversation with Steve didn't go well. I can kind of understand it though. I think Hash is trying to be accomidating, but it is something new to them. I also think that if they feel attacted, they get deffensive very quickly. They are trying their best, as they see it. Try to keep in mind that Steve has many similar conversations and e-mails every day, and does support too. He is like the land lord, he only hears about problems. That has to wear on you after a while. Whe I talked to him yesterday, he was concerned the CGtalk forum was all about brining Hash down. I assured him that there are many dedicated A:M users here, that only want a working app and we felt we had to do something to get that happening. Now that v 10 is stable , lots of us are gettting down to playing with our new toy.

I don't relly have a point to make other than as far as I'm concerned the stability problem is fixed, at least for now. :applause:

Cheers, Graham

penguinpavilion
02-14-2003, 10:46 PM
I sent Steve a copy of my post. I shall now be unethical, and share his reply :
Cut, and paste:
==========================================
I really don't consider e-mail, or CGTALK direct- actually I consider this very petty and hateful-
So I guess If I'd begged you to take a free upgrade, you wouldn't have posted this?
It's a pity you couldn't have "quietly" moved on, but I guess that was probably never your intention-
I won't be surprised, though I think it's very inappropriate and unethical if these PRIVATE comments make to to CGTalk as well-
===========================================
Yes, Steve I have nothing better to do than to plot Hash's demise(Dr Evil pinky move). That's why I spent the time trying to contact you.

Good luck to the rest of you, and good bye.

Kevin Sanderson
02-14-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by penguinpavilion
2) Being up front about the nature of the list
I said that it was cool that the list is tightly moderated, but that they shoudl be more upfront about it being that way. This was a bad idea to bring up, he became very defensive, and I had to push the conversation away from this


I can understand why. It's right there in all the info (Dos and Don'ts, etc.) when you go to join. Has been for quite some time. How much more upfront can they be? Make you take a quiz to see if you read and understood the rules?

I never have considered the list tightly moderated though. That would be a screened list which would be more like many moderated newsgroups where your post either gets on or it doesn't depending on posting rules and the whims of the moderator. I've seen many threads start on the Hash list go for some time...especially ones that start in the middle of the night or on the weekend. If it was tightly moderated that would never occur. Sure people get bounced for flagrantly violating list rules, many times after a warning, but they often get back on after a sincere apology. Sounds pretty humane to me in this day and age.

I, too, hope you gather your thoughts and try again emailing Steve. I can't guarantee another outcome, but who knows? Steve is being pretty decent about most of this, IMHO.

I know folks like you who can easily become tongue tied in situations...I've been there many times myself. The best thing is to try and straighten it out. Leave moving on to the absolute last resort. Then you can let it go with a clear conscience, knowing you gave it your best shot.


(Just saw what transpired while I was writing this and by the time it was posted. I guess moving on might be best. Let it go.)

My Fault
02-14-2003, 10:52 PM
Woops, I take back my hating to see you go. Posting private emails pretty much shows the type of person you are. Let the door hit you on the way out, you deserve it :p

penguinpavilion
02-14-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
Woops, I take back my hating to see you go. Posting private emails pretty much shows the type of person you are. Let the door hit you on the way out, you deserve it :p

And what kind of person might that be . . .
honest?

He, an official of HASH INC., contacted me via his official email address from Hash Inc. called me petty and hateful for having shared my experience talking to him. Now, the result of my posting could have been that I would have followed your original advice. But considering his reply, I don't think it is an option. He could not have read the posting, the text of which I included in my reply to him, there was nothing hateful in there. It an chance to go over my conversation with him that was loaded with miscommunication on both our ends. His reply just shows who you are dealing with if things don't go his way. Just because he warned me not to doesn't mean other people shouldn't know that he can be that way.

I bear nobody here any ill will, not even Steve. I just see that I will be happier elsewhere.

My Fault
02-14-2003, 11:17 PM
Hey ruscler, check your private messages, I responded back. I'm pretty sure when you first sign up it defaults to not emailing you when you receive a PM. Glad to hear things went well with your talk with Steve! :thumbsup:

Wegg
02-14-2003, 11:30 PM
Offering free upgrades to dissatisfied customers is a bloody good idea. I mean. . . they they are already upset and intend not to use the software any more. . . but if you can work with them individually, and let them see that the software is progressing. . . then they will probably go back to using the product. Its not like you have lost money. You would never have gotten a sale from that person anyway!

Whomever came up with that idea at Hash Inc. . . Good on ya. :thumbsup:

I'm so proud of all of us.

<Group Hug!>

I don't think Steve shouldn't have added in that bit where he requested a "no griping" clause if the person doesn't accept the offer. Thats like telling a little kid not to touch the fire. What are they instantly going to do. . .

My Fault
02-14-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Wegg
Thats like telling a little kid not to touch the fire. What are they instantly going to do. . .

I want to touch the FIRE!!!!! :twisted:

Wegg
02-15-2003, 12:16 AM
Zactly. . . .

Nonproductive
02-15-2003, 12:52 AM
After seeing the posts here from folks and having had my own conversation - I really do believe the Hash folks are listening. As Wegg poitned out - the free upade thing is a beautiful move. I initially thought of it as being "bought" ie. "here's a free ugprade, now you can shut yer trap" - but when Steve offered me the upgrade without me asking for it I felt that it was truly an effort on their part to right folks that felt they were wronged.

With that said, I can see Penguin's conversation taking place without any doubt in my mind.

For my part, my career prior to being laid off revolved around effective communication (Project Management) - both to the team members and the management responsible for the project. I have learned, over the years, to "think twice, speak once" (as a former boss once told me) as well as how to talk to people the way they want to be spoken to while still getting the poitn across. I went into the phone call expecting it to be antagonistic and it was the exact opposite. Perhaps because of the way I communicate or, more likely, perhaps because Steve was having a better day at that point.

Steve, as we have all seen from the list, can occasionally lose his temper. If he was having a bad day, or simply felt like he was backed into a corner by the conversation - I can totally see him lashing out like that. Is it "proper" given his role and the current community situation? That's up for grabs... but in my mind at least - it's understandable.

Prior to posting Steve's response to the forum here, Penguin. I was giong to suggest you collect your thoughts, make some notes for yourself and call Steve again. I would think your experience wuold be better. However, after posting his email I thin it's pretty safe to say that the bridge is burned.

Whenever my v10 CD arrives I'll install it and try to work without seeing my desktop or corrupting projects. If the program is stable and they deliver on the render engine and minimization of creasing issues - they'll get my $99 for v11.

jayrtfm
02-15-2003, 06:07 PM
quote >>>>3) Import / Export of other formats is mostly a marketing thing. They have positioned themselves as a "one stop application." However, they *will* support the efforts of folks looking to aide the community with converters. Out of the box they will proved 3DS and DXF import abilities but he seemed a little reticent about them. I pointed out that there is a tremendous library of free models on the web and by cutting their users off from them they are limiting themselves. He agreed, but restated that it was, primarily, a marketing decision and most likely would not change. Not thrilled on this one - but if they beef up the SDK it will allow for 3rd party plugins like Arthur's.

This is ironic, considering this recent posting on the AM list:

Begin forwarded message:
> From: Alweb mail2 <alweb66@yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:44:07 PM US/Pacific
> To: steve@hash.com
> Subject: from Alain (medical human model )
>
>
> Do you know where I can get a AM human model showing
> the different human life systems ?
> like skeleton, nervous systems, digestive etc.
> The kind of model used for medical illustration ?
>
> I'm interested in any model showing any human systems
> ...
>
> I'm not registed to the AM mailing list at this time,
> if you can follow this request to the list for me , it
> will be very appreciated.
>
> peoples can reply at: alweb66@yahoo.com
>
> Best regards
>
> Alain
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
Steve Sappington
Hash, Inc.
400 West Evergreen Blvd.
Vancouver, WA 98660
360-750-0042
-3D Modeling and Character Animation Tools!-
http://www.hash.comgg hh

Raist3d
02-15-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Wegg
Offering free upgrades to dissatisfied customers is a bloody good idea.

[stuff del]


I just wrote Steve about this congratulating him. Hopefully he will see that many of us are truly willing to give credit where due.


- Raist

HellBorn
02-16-2003, 08:48 PM
Well If Steve has started to offer the v10 CD for free to people posting here or to the one that has registred then that is greate news. If he offer one to me I would really give it a chance even though I'm close to invest in a new application . It would also maen a year more of upgrades and hopefully they do something about the creases in that time. Guess I have to wait and se.

But one thing is for sure:
I rather pay $1000 for another application than I make an international call to Steve in order to begg for a new CD.

gra4mac
02-17-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by HellBorn
...But one thing is for sure:
I rather pay $1000 for another application than I make an international call to Steve in order to begg for a new CD.

You may be just as well off with spending $1000 on good software. I don't expect creasing to get fixed any time soon, but then I may be surprised. I was pleasantly surprised how stable and problem free v 10 was, until 10.0f came out. Looks like another cycle of 2 steps forward and one back.

BTW, you don't have to beg Steve for an upgrade, I just told him I thought I didn't get my moneys woth with v 9, and didn't want to pay for 10. Think of it as replacing a deffective product, which it is. I think if you tell him you want to carry on with A:M, he would be quite willing to send out a CD.

Cheers, Graham

d4rk
02-17-2003, 07:30 AM
that's one thing I'm thinking about, why should I have to make a call and beg? Can't they just contact us all (even by mail, they seem to do so to advertise), apologize and then offer to make up for it? If I didn't read these forums I wouldn't even know about this at all. There is NOTHING on the list about it at all. They are trying to keep it quiet and trying to save as much money as possible. I already paid $200 + $99 + $99 how much more am I gonna have to pay before they fix everything? I might have been better off just saving my money in the first place for a different app. I definetly am not planning on upgrading again ever, with out see/hearing that things have changed.

Natess44
02-18-2003, 01:10 AM
You don't have to beg you just have to "state your case" and that's all. Steve isn't out to get you or anything. :insane:

johnathan
02-18-2003, 01:19 AM
still, the point here seems to be that even though they fully admit v9 was a dud, you have to ask for them to do the right thing.

we all know that 98% of their user base won't ask, either out of ignorance, laziness or for fear of angering the powers that be.

i've already bought v10, and decided not to send it back, in hopes they get it right this time. so even if i got the call, all i'd say is...

fool me once, shame on you.
fool me twice, shame on me.

i'll know in 10.5 months which it is :)

-jon

howardt
02-18-2003, 04:24 PM
we all know that 98% of their user base won't ask, either out of ignorance, laziness or for fear of angering the powers that be.

Reminds me of a Dilbert that's on the wall in our coffee room at work:

"Due to budget constraints, our new product will have no user interface. "

"Our target market is people who are too shy to return anything."

Stychentyme
02-21-2003, 04:10 AM
After thinking about it awhile, I wrote Steve an email asking about a free upgrade to ver. 10. I listed my concerns, the main one being that they seemed to know that ver. 9 wasn't a good upgrade from the start. I felt misled my that and told him so.

Here was the reply;

Thanks for your comments- we stand behind 9.51e as a solid useable piece of software (v9 was a bitch, NOT 9.5) however, if you feel you deserve a free upgrade, you are welcome to CALL me to make your case.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had told Steve in my email that I hadn't called him because I'm hearing-impaired and talking on the phone is extremely difficult. That didn't seem to matter for him. Either you CALL him, or you 'aint gettin' nuthin'!

I thought I had outlined my concerns pretty well in my message, but I guess for him, I didn't.

I must say that the little communication I've had with Steve over the years hasn't been good. One time while I was using ver. 7, I emailed him about a question I had about one of the tutorials in the manual,..... his response was that "he didn't have a copy of the manual with him to know what I was talking about," and suggested that I just try figuring it out by myself. I wasn't impressed.

Needless to say,.... I'm not getting the free upgrade. I guess I'm not important enough in the HASH community.

Because if this experience, I'm unsure about wether to continue using AM at all. I've had contact with Newtek about their offer for a compeditive upgrade on Lightwave, but $1000 US is a lot of money. Maybe I'll just watch and see how 10 goes and maybe I'll upgrade on ver. 11.

For now, I just don't know.

Chris.

Natess44
02-21-2003, 05:36 AM
Email him again and state clearly why you can't phone him. He has a tendancy to skim read and he misses some of the key points that you try to convey, as I found out when I phoned him. He does have a good memory though so if you did decide to phone him he'd remember the email you sent him.

HellBorn
02-21-2003, 06:47 AM
If I call Steve and talk to him in Swedish will I get a free CD then?
I have not seen any info saying that we need to talk English....or...is he actually counting on that a lot of people wont complain as they feel to unsecure about talking in English. I mean, writing a letter is one thing as you can use spell correction and an encyclpoedia, talking is something different.

Or if you don't know English at all?????

Maybe not a problem as they probably can't read either, so how should they even know that they can get that v10 CD????

And the 'we stand behind 9.51e as a solid useable piece of software' is plain funny!!

When I tried that one I did spend more time rebooting AM that on modeling.

hoochoochoochoo
02-21-2003, 08:45 AM
we stand behind 9.51e as a solid useable piece of software

:surprised I'm not after an upgrade myself but if you're on a Mac you could always talk about the inability to render out (using the external renderer) anything but final quality.

Let me state before I get knifed:hmm: , I'm happy enough otherwise with 9.51e.

Wegg
02-21-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by hoochoochoochoo
Let me state before I get knifed:hmm: , I'm happy enough otherwise with 9.51e.

Before you get knifed!?! What are you talkin about dude. You can say whatever you want in here. Just don't bash on each other too much or go rattling off on topics that have nothing to do with the price of eggs in China.

ruscular
02-21-2003, 11:52 PM
Okay , you say that calling steve is difficult or impossible? I have only 20% hearing, born with german measle, so the vocal pitch of sound is extremely difficult because of the specialize nerve that is required to decipher the input. I have a volume adjustment turn way up on the phone and I turn my hearing aid way up while on the phone as well. On the verge of major feedback.

Steve does speak loudly and clear. he will deal with it. But if your totally deaf just get someone else to make the call for you and interpreted the call.

Anyway, glad to have you on board, as fars as I know your the only other hearing impaired person in the Hash community!

Dont let your situation become you, be better than that!

Stychentyme
02-22-2003, 05:59 AM
[QUOTE .....Anyway, glad to have you on board, as far as I know your the only other hearing impaired person in the Hash community!

Hey! Thanks!

I've lost over half my hearing in both ears due to a condition called Menieres Disease. I wear hearing aids in both ears, but I find that I still have a lot of trouble with my comprehension while using a phone to such a point that I try to avoid it whenever possible. I get frustrated and embarassed when I keep having to ask whomever I'm talking to to keep repeating themselves.

It also depends on the type of phones people use,.... some are worse than others. Turning up the volume on my aids while using the phone results in massive feedback.

So, due to this, email has become my friend.

Regardless,.... I've still debated calling Steve, but his reply to my email didn't exactly make me feel that great. It was obviously just a form letter. I don't really think he even bothered to actually read the whole thing. It just makes me feel like,.... why bother?

hoochoochoochoo
02-24-2003, 03:41 PM
Let me state before I get knifed , I'm happy enough otherwise with 9.51e.

I'll poke my head above the parapet and say "may I take my words back?" I'm even happier with 8.5. (Even with the renderer faults)

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