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View Full Version : Hey Wegg (eggprops)


pdaley
02-11-2003, 09:00 PM
Does the recent disappearance of the eggprops ad banner from hash.com have anything to do with your recent -public- anti-Hash statements?

Also, is there a future for Eggprops? I've bought a few things from it and have been happy with the products, but have always kind of wondered if it has become an orphaned site.

koon69
02-11-2003, 09:58 PM
Good question. I feel something happened. For a while the guys from eggington posted a lot. I miss them on the list. But then poof there gone. I wondered why. Come on fess up. What went down?

balistic
02-11-2003, 10:46 PM
Personally, I left the A:M list for two reasons:

A - I don't do much 3D at home anymore.

and

B - I didn't want to read the latest round of public Hash bashing and banning. I've seen enough of those wars. People take things far too seriously on the internet. Holy wars are stupid. Holy wars about software are dumber still.

I would speculate that Hash's removal of our banner is their indication to us that we're no longer viewed as part of the A:M advocacy.

I don't think there's any genuine malice there . . . they're probably just as confused about our direction as we are about theirs.

It's true that we don't advocate Hash. We advocate using whatever it takes to get the job done. Doesn't mean we don't like aspects of the software.

Wegg
02-11-2003, 11:58 PM
There was no real communication. I only just noticed it was gone the other day myself. In true Hash Inc. fashion, they have neglected to communicate anything. So. . . I really have no idea exactly why it is gone. That Startrek one is gone too. . .

It is exciting to see Steve make an effort to get in touch with upset users by offering an open phone dialog. but. . . I'm afraid I won't be making any calls. Hash Inc's magic eight ball of decision making is just too much for me to handle.

It will be sad to see eggprops v1 fade away. . . but we have big plans for eggprops v2. . . so stay tuned.

pdaley
02-12-2003, 12:43 PM
Thanks eggGuys.

zandoria
02-12-2003, 01:28 PM
WEGG

After the comments that you made about "wishing you had a tape recorder..." which was a slanderous remark in a public forum, and the rest of the very public bridge-burning that you have done--How can you be suprised by any backlash?
That seems disingenuous.

You have a lot of great models on eggprops, and I have purchased some of them and download a lot of your free ones also. Watching you give a modeling demonstration on the Siggraph tapes helped me to really "see" how to model with splines--I watched it over and over, and you were my hero...

I look forward to seeing Eggprops V2, I'm guessing that you will be adding more formats? I hope you will keep A:M models in your inventory--if not maybe you could sell them on Turbosquid or something...

Dearmad
02-12-2003, 03:52 PM
Zandoria,

Wishing one had a tape recorder is not slanderous. Good grief. Save the big fighting words for big fights. :)

balistic
02-12-2003, 04:13 PM
Slander is spoken, libel is printed. But then Wegg hasn't written anything libelous . . . libel is a lie. All he's done is express frustration towards certains trends that have materialized at Hash, Inc. You'll find that both Billy and myself continue to recommend A:M to beginning and amateur 3D artists, we just can't make the same recommendation for professionals until (and unless) certain mentalities at that company are changed.

Martin has said the same thing to Wegg that he said to me a couple years ago:

"I don't care what you use, as long as you recommend A:M to your nephew."

That's verbatim, and I doubt Martin would have any objections to my quoting him on it. Surely you can understand how that could make a loyal, professional user of A:M feel somewhat betrayed.

I don't think it's libelous to point out that piece of unwritten policy to studios who are thinking of using A:M professionally.

zandoria
02-12-2003, 04:18 PM
It was the context of how it was said that made it seem improper (to me).

I'm not "in" this particular squabble, I just don't think that Wegg should be suprised by Hash dropping his banner... But it is possible that there is no meaning at all behind it.

Maybe Steve will make the call, it would be nice if everyone could "kiss and make up".

:thumbsup:

Wegg
02-12-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by zandoria
WEGG

After the comments that you made about "wishing you had a tape recorder..." which was a slanderous remark in a public forum, and the rest of the very public bridge-burning that you have done--How can you be suprised by any backlash?
That seems disingenuous.

As much as this isn't a religion. . . it is. I was a devout priest. Irrationally defending their every action. I felt that due to the nature of the software I had mastered. . . there was no other way. I couldn't just jump ship. No other software uses splines or rigs in the same way. I felt that the only thing I could do was to fight to bring credibility to the product I had mastered. Hence eggprops, the FREE instructional videos I did for Hash and paid for my employees to do for Hash, the free models and posters you STILL see at their booth.

Once after a Siggraph party, the majority of Hash programmers sat with Brian, Joe and I and talked for HOURS about the product. Where they would like to see it go. . . their goals for its future etc. It was amazing. The majority of programmers at Hash inc. are brilliant. They have devised a package that I feel to this day has the best project workflow and most intuitive rigging/character animation tools bar none. There is no better network rendering solution. There is no procedural texture engine that is as powerful etc. I felt completly justified.

Then there were the random brain farts. The STUPID decisions. The ridiculous comments and wild sweeping observations from the very opinionated people who are the ones actually making the final decisions, running the marketing and writing the ports etc. It would just infuriate me. If it their comments had been directly to me privately. . . I wouldn't have posted them. But these sentiments about their user base and their "little secret" about how they make sales were just blurted out into the open for anyone to hear!

During one Siggraph "party". . . they showed an animation called "The fat Jew Bastard" or something like that. I had just met Steve Anzovin (Raf's dad) and was standing next to Raf and Steve while it was playing. Very nice people and as devoted to getting the most out of AM as we were. (I even tried to hire Raf at one stage. . . thats another story.) Talk about uncomfortable. Some of the Hash employees were laughing their ASSES off as this little fat jewish boy was ripped appart for every stereotype imagionable. THESE were the idiots running the show. Making the decissions. I can't help but feel that Hash Inc. is still around in SPITE of them. . . instead of because of them.

AAAAHHHhhhhh!!!! I couldn't understand why they didn't just fix a few little damn things and let us go head to head with Maya, Max, C4D, LW. In a side by side demo I could have wiped the PANTS off of any of those packages. They could have taken over the industry! But I would hear these lame stupid ignorant comments over and over again from multiple Hash Inc. employees at numberous trade shows. It is/was infuriating.

After one modeling video, I had modelers from Zygote approach me to find out more about AM's capabilities. They couldn't believe how easy it was for me to whip together a pretty complex model. They bought the program and went back to use it. Of course. . . the inevitable "why does it crash so much" phone calls followed. "Why do my models look all wrinkled?" I even went down to their offices and set up a machine for them with the coolest latest version I knew of and sat with their modeler for about an hour showing him the ropes.

They had to give up. As did I. The rest of the world has caught up and now. . . I have options. Sub-Ds are smooth as butter. . . Messiah isn't as easy. . . but it is VERY powerful. Darktree, Sasquatch, Hypervoxels etc. They are all a pain in the ass to use and don't hold a candle to AM's simplicity. . . but they work in a predictable crash free manner.

So yes I'm still bitter. Yes I say some pretty stupid things out in the open. But this forum is the first time I feel like there is a chance for others with similar frustrations and passions to get together and vent. I have done my best to try ALSO make it constructive but I don't feel its right to hold back anyone's opinions about the stupidity of the situation.

Vent all you want. I COMPLETLY understand and am right there beside ya buddy. . .

I feel that this has done good. 10.5's AA has improved. There is now a "LW" like renderer. People are reporting better stability. Hell Steve is even contacting some of us who have gripes and making an attempt to work it out! If we keep hanging out Hash Inc's dirty underwear. . . they will have to get off their asses and clean it up.

So there you go. "Wegg's Minutes".

d4rk
02-13-2003, 08:39 PM
the guys at Eggington were the reason I went with animation master in the first place....

pdaley
02-14-2003, 02:03 PM
If Hash-ism is a religion, then does that make Wegg Martin Luther?

balistic
02-14-2003, 03:31 PM
:D

My Fault
02-14-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by pdaley
If Hash-ism is a religion, then does that make Wegg Martin Luther?

He seems more of an Al Sharpton lately. A little bit sensible, a little bit crazy.... but we like that better :p

pdaley
02-14-2003, 04:37 PM
To be clear, I didn't mean Martin Luther King, fighter against oppression. I meant Martin Luther, the guy that got sick of the Catholic church and started the Lutheran church after very publicly airing his complaints. (I am no theologist so this is a gross oversimplification)

Picturing Wegg with that stylish hairdo of Sharpton's gave me a good chuckle though.

Wegg
02-14-2003, 05:20 PM
I had to get Brian to explain that one too me. I kept thinking "I'm not preaching about human rights. . . what the heck is this guy smokin!?!"

I get it now. . . good one. :)

The difference is. . . I'm not really interested in bringing the Church/Hash Inc. down to start my own. I just want the people who I feel have been repressed under a cloud of BS and stupidity to wake up and do something about it. That has never happened before now. And I personally think it is working. I can't wait to see how 10.5 turns out. . . and 11. . . woo boy. . . AM could be kick ass. But only if we keep on them and not get suckered into accepting a half assed effort.

<WARNING NEW UNNECESSARY RANT>

Brian and I were watching Greg Rrostami give one of his amazing demos at a Siggraph a few years back and he kept showing our work and just flat out lying about how it was done.

"As you can see AM has great Global Illumination rendering options". As he shows one of Brian's images. Brian later pointed out to Greg that no GI was ever used in ANY of his images. But Greg said something like. "People don't care! They are buying into the dream! Its the dream we are selling. . . Not the software itself."

Well personally. . . I think thats a crock of sh*t. Brian's images looked fantastic. Greg shouldn't have had to lie. . . AM can do amazing work. Hash shouldn't have to boot out decenters from their list. . . play little loyalty games with people or any of that crap.

Make your software rule. . . and you will sell more copies and not have loonies like me ranting and raving in public forums. You are THAAAT close (Picture Wegg holding up two fingers in demonstration.) Please don't stuff it up.

<END OF RANT>

FordPrefect
02-14-2003, 05:55 PM
Amen brother.

Kevin Sanderson
02-14-2003, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Wegg

Brian and I were watching Greg Rrostami give one of his amazing demos at a Siggraph a few years back and he kept showing our work and just flat out lying about how it was done.

"As you can see AM has great Global Illumination rendering options". As he shows one of Brian's images. Brian later pointed out to Greg that no GI was ever used in ANY of his images. But Greg said something like. "People don't care! They are buying into the dream! Its the dream we are selling. . . Not the software itself."

That could just be the natural reaction some people have for not admitting they were mistaken. I've run into that many times and when they're given a chance to back down or time has past, they finally admit they were wrong and just plain didn't have the facts right. Anxious people often do this and Greg strikes me as the anxious type since he's so hyper! :)

I would tend to think that first. If it was continuous I would hold with your opinion that it was not being honest.


Well personally. . . I think thats a crock of sh*t. Brian's images looked fantastic. Greg shouldn't have had to lie. . . AM can do amazing work. Hash shouldn't have to boot out decenters from their list. . . play little loyalty games with people or any of that crap.

With Brian behind the mouse and keyboard, AM can. Hopefully more of us can reach that high plateau. And you're one fine modeler, Wegg.

I've always thought booting folks wasn't quite the right way to do things, but some people do deserve to get told off and some cut off. If someone wants to dissent diplomatically, that should be allowed. Unfortunately some get very emotional (rightly so sometimes from stress and I understand) and the rule was implemented to stop that. Last thing I want on my dial-up is 100 messages in a flame war waiting to download. I've managed to kill most spam. I don't need that, too. I remember complaining about some of that crap back when Jeff Paries was there. It was quite a problem for them and was holding up work on support, bug reports, etc. I don't think we have to pledge loyalty, but some users should quit acting like they're 12 (though some may be).

If Hash was truly fanatical about it, they could always screen messages like some newsgroups do. But they never have done that so there is a degree of openess allowed there, IMHO.

I remember the really wacky arguments that used to get going on the AOL and CompuServe Hash boards...those messages hung around what seemed like forever and I tend to think some people should have been embarrassed about that.



Make your software rule. . . and you will sell more copies and not have loonies like me ranting and raving in public forums. You are THAAAT close (Picture Wegg holding up two fingers in demonstration.) Please don't stuff it up.




I agree with that except for the loony part. :thumbsup:

Raist3d
02-15-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by zandoria
WEGG

After the comments that you made about "wishing you had a tape recorder..." which was a slanderous remark in a public forum, and the rest of the very public bridge-burning that you have done--How can you be suprised by any backlash?
That seems disingenuous.

You have a lot of great models on eggprops, and I have purchased some of them and download a lot of your free ones also. Watching you give a modeling demonstration on the Siggraph tapes helped me to really "see" how to model with splines--I watched it over and over, and you were my hero...

I look forward to seeing Eggprops V2, I'm guessing that you will be adding more formats? I hope you will keep A:M models in your inventory--if not maybe you could sell them on Turbosquid or something...

I am still baffled at the number of people that seem to point out all the great work Wegg & his band has done, particularly in trying to push forward A:M yet the benefit of the doubt goes to Hash and not to Wegg.

Seriously... I mean.... come on.

:shame:

Raist3d
02-15-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Wegg


Well personally. . . I think thats a crock of sh*t. Brian's images looked fantastic. Greg shouldn't have had to lie. . . AM can do amazing work. Hash shouldn't have to boot out decenters from their list. . . play little loyalty games with people or any of that crap.

<END OF RANT>

Not to mention that it totally undermines Brian's incredible eye for light use and composition...

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