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3DQUAKERS
11-17-2006, 04:58 AM
Keeping up with the new version announcement theme of the week, here is the final demo of the upcoming Automatic Rigging training DVD for Softimage XSI from 3DQUAKERS.COM.
Upon watching this new demo, you will have an idea why the develpment is taking longer than previously announced.

Link: http://3dquakers1.com/webroot5/download.php?det=29

A lot of you guys emailed me about purchasing the addon before the release of the DVD. This is possible. Just email me for details i n f o @ 3 d q u a k e r s . c o m

Would love to hear your feedback.

MLMckenzie
11-17-2006, 02:19 PM
Charbel,

I downloaded the new demo, but the audio seems to have a problem. It has a lot of dropped sections, but the video portion seems ok. I just don't know what you're saying. I'm on a Mac at the moment, but I will try to download again and see if it was a bad file the first time.

Mike

cem
11-17-2006, 02:30 PM
I downloaded it a couple of hours ago and the sound was fine for me. Looks really good Charbel can't wait till it's released.

Cheers,

Clair

yolao
11-17-2006, 03:25 PM
it looks wonderful... really great!!:thumbsup:.

I wanted to ask you.

-Is there an option to first move an arm for example in IK and then rotate it FK with out loosing the initial IK position?..... just like in maya..

-I remember that you talk the other day about a facial rigging training.... can you give some info about it?... would it be based in blend shapes (i don`t know the name in xsi), or based in rig joints... or a combination of both... i imagin that you will show how to make a GUI for the control of the face...

thanks

MLMckenzie
11-17-2006, 03:30 PM
Same problem with the audio. Odd because I haven't had a problem with the past demo movies. Oh well, I will try to sort it out. Looking forward to seeing (hearing) the new info…

Mike

Gwot
11-17-2006, 04:22 PM
Looks awesome Charbel! Can't wait!

FB_Turbine
11-17-2006, 04:38 PM
This looks great and so does the rigging pro dvd. I was wondering what the relationship of this dvd is to the rigging pro dvd? Does this extend that dvd or is the information in the rigging pro dvd repeated in this?

Thanks,

freeschwag
11-17-2006, 05:32 PM
No problems with audio here, though downloading from IE6 was a pain, so I used
Opera and was able to resume downloading when it timed out.

Charbel, I'm very interested in this DVD but I'm specifically hoping you will touch on
how to translate this autorig for friendly use with game engines . I am new to XSI so
perhaps this is trivial, but using your autorig for my game characters is my ultimate goal,
so this added info in the DVD would be most sought after for me.

Kind regards.

MLMckenzie
11-17-2006, 05:49 PM
I found the codec I needed to play the video correctly.
It looks great Charbel! Even better than I had hoped.

So how much longer are you going to torture us with anticipation? Also, I would like to know how this fits in with Rigging Pro aswell.

Thanks!!

Mike

3DQUAKERS
11-17-2006, 05:58 PM
Thanks for the nice words guys.
For the audio, I encoded it in the techsmith mp3 audio compressor. I thought this was a universal compressor, but it seems to be not. I suggest downloading the latest tscc from techsmith.com to see if it sorts out the problem.

For facial rigging, it will feature an automated system, just like the AutoRig, that will try and mimick the way FaceRobot works. It will be based on blend shapes, bones and facial muscles. The facial controls will be automated through scripting, and applicable to the character of choice. I will post more info once the AutoRig DVD is out of the way.

The AutoRig DVD builds on rigging knowledge acquired from RiggingPRO. This DVD will focus on scripting and UI creation, and will not explain fundamental rigging concepts, which are covered thoroughly in RiggingPRO.

No scripting knowledge is required since I will be explaining things from scratch, from an animator's point of view, rather than a programmer's. I will be covering both VBscript and Jscript. My purpose is to demistify scripting, while creating a useful series of scripts that help tremendously in production animation.

The feature set for this version is locked, so I cannot add anymore, but there is always a version 2 coming. So if you have any requests for that, just post it here.

I hope I answered everything. Keep your comments coming guys.

LemonNado
11-17-2006, 06:43 PM
Great Stuff! This will save a LOT of tedious work in the near future.

I WANT ONE!

Rainer

yolao
11-17-2006, 07:25 PM
For facial rigging, it will feature an automated system, just like the AutoRig, that will try and mimick the way FaceRobot works. It will be based on blend shapes, bones and facial muscles. The facial controls will be automated through scripting, and applicable to the character of choice. I will post more info once the AutoRig DVD is out of the way.

EXCELLENT!!!:thumbsup:.. What you are doin for the 3d world and specially for softimage users is extraordinary... you are great:).

So, for the facial rig training you will have 2 trainings.... one that teach the facial rigging proccess and other that teach doin this automatically?... just like rigging pro and automatic rigging?

Any aprox. date....? you said that you will post more info after AutoRig DVD is released, maybe a video showing the rigged face?...oh man, i highly anticipate this one.



I hope I answered everything. Keep your comments coming guys.

actually you forget one of my questions:)

-Is there an option to first move an arm for example in IK and then rotate it in FK with out loosing the initial IK position?..... just like in maya..

Thanks.

P.S. Sorry for bring questions here abaout facial rigging training, i know this thread is for Automatic rigging DVD (wich is great).

gameboy
11-17-2006, 07:56 PM
Looks fantastic Charbel! :thumbsup:

I'm an animation novice, and I was wondering about all the form controls (e.g. tapering) for all the box objects that comprise the character. Are they just for show while manipulating a character's rig, or are they meant to be mesh deformers enveloped to a model's vertices, to modify the appearance of the actual model the bones are enveloped to?

janimatic
11-17-2006, 09:57 PM
excellent... i will buy it immediately

Mechis
11-17-2006, 10:50 PM
Looks fantastic Charbel! :thumbsup:

I'm an animation novice, and I was wondering about all the form controls (e.g. tapering) for all the box objects that comprise the character. Are they just for show while manipulating a character's rig, or are they meant to be mesh deformers enveloped to a model's vertices, to modify the appearance of the actual model the bones are enveloped to?

They're for enveloping.
~Mechis

Sbowling
11-18-2006, 02:35 AM
I am very impressed with the level of control you've added. I can't wait to get this.

I do have one question... can you make the character do a backflip without the rig falling apart or flipping wildly?

Oh, can I load this onto my Zune? :D (just kidding)

3DQUAKERS
11-18-2006, 06:54 PM
@ yolao, I did not forget your question. I said that the feature set is locked for this version, but I logged your request for version 2.

@ Sbowling, yes you can now do back flips using the new Upperbody control with no problems at all.

@ gameboy, the boxes are for visual feedback and enveloping.

Loolarge
11-18-2006, 07:26 PM
I was wondering if this will work with XSI 4 as well?

yolao
11-18-2006, 09:16 PM
@ yolao, I did not forget your question. I said that the feature set is locked for this version, but I logged your request for version 2.


thanks, definitively i will like to have this option in a future version.

benytone
11-19-2006, 02:10 PM
Nice DVD Charbel! :thumbsup:



.

Ejecta
11-19-2006, 05:09 PM
Cool! Its great you addressed the arm twisting in FK. Looks like it will be a nice rig. Thanks for offering this to xsi community. Some of us dont really want to spend alot of time rigging and want to get to animating. This will help.

JonasK
11-19-2006, 07:22 PM
Hi Charbel, great work, really looking forward to it!

Question: Will I get a finished product so to speak, ready to apply to my character or will I have to build the whole system from scratch via a series of tutorials? (or maybe both?)

/Jonas
(happy RiggingPRO user)

EternalArt
11-19-2006, 11:39 PM
Impressive Dvd .. I will try to catch it .. as soon as possible

ShadowM8
11-20-2006, 03:59 AM
I really am interested in getting the rigging series. It is probably the most in depth instructional material I've seen and I would definetely enjoy learning your methodology.

My question is: are you planning to do a dvd that concentrates on deformation?
I myself enjoy working on the animation rig but unfortunately we all have to make it deform our geometry so I would definetely like to see you adress the creation of a deformation rig.

3DQUAKERS
11-20-2006, 06:20 PM
@Jonas, both the training DVD and the Addon will be available when the title is released. That way you can start using the addon right away and learn at your own pace.

@ShadowM8, yes I will be working on facial rigging and then eveloping (featuring brand new techniques) next.

Ejecta
01-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Is this close to being released?

JDex
01-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Yes, yes... an update please?

Sbowling
01-26-2007, 08:05 PM
Me wants! :D

I'm wondering if there are some issues with XSI6 since it was slated to be released about the time XSI6 was released. I am really looking forward to this tutorial and was hoping to use it on my next character, but it looks like I'm going to have to start without it. :sad:

norvman
01-26-2007, 08:10 PM
Thats just absolutely amazing....

I certainly have to vouch for the Rigging Pro tutorial as I am currently going through that... Have learned a lot in a very short of time wish I didn't have a school scedual to keep up with so I could study at it more...

Thanks Charbel these things are great...

I know I will be ordering soon...

:thumbsup: :bounce: :thumbsup:

josh3light
01-28-2007, 02:20 AM
waiting to buy this immediately

3DQUAKERS
01-28-2007, 06:14 AM
Sorry for the delay guys.
The Addon is finished and the DVD is almost done.
Expect an announcement soon.

yolao
01-28-2007, 03:47 PM
hey Charbel, great to hear that you are almost done with the DVD, and speaking of this automatic rigging that you`r about to release, you said that you may work on a second edition of this..... how much will be the upgrade for those ho buy this one....

I ask because i`m interested in the feature that i asked before.... IK to FK and viceversa with out loosing the previous pose in IK or FK..


i remember that you said that after you release this dvd you`r next project will be an automatic face rigging ALA face robot.

i was checking a very interesting auto face rig been developed by Raf Anzovin, see how much control he has on the face.... GREAT..an early request for your auto face rig is an option to have the joints follow the form of the face, check the video by Anzovin.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=88&t=421835&highlight=face+machine

I say an option because it will be also nice to move the joints anywhere for extreme caricature expresions.... So maybe you can make a switch ON and OFF to follow the form of the face.

Cheers

norvman
01-28-2007, 05:43 PM
wow! yolao
that was cool...

3DQUAKERS
01-28-2007, 06:31 PM
I checked the video yolao. Everything you saw in there will be implemented, and more.
I just need to get AutoRigging out of the way, since it's long overdue.

About the upgrade price for AutoRig v2, I haven't thought about it, but not to worry.

ebbmeister
01-28-2007, 06:49 PM
I am already excited by the idea of an auto FaceRigging solution that's of the quality of RiggingPro. I suppose it's too early to ask when in 2007 we can expect to see it released? :)

Looking foward to getting my hands AutoRigging.
Cheers
Phil

yolao
01-28-2007, 07:41 PM
I suppose it's too early to ask when in 2007 we can expect to see it released? :)


i will also like to know if that`s possible... at least an aprox. date please?..

The only thing that don`t make me yet animate in XSI is that i don`t know yet how to rig there, in the other hand i do know to a certain degree how to rig in maya and therefore i animate there.

In other words if i have the automatic rigging and the face auto rigging i will make all my animation in XSI...

Just one concern.... well, two:)

-What`s your point of view Charbel about the realtime playback speed in XSI in comparison to maya and other apps...?.. some say is slow...

-Would i have any issues exporting the animation in case i don`t use XSI for render?

Thanks and congratulation for the great work.

norvman
01-30-2007, 01:40 AM
hey yolao... I really think that if you know how to Rigg in Maya then your really not going to have a lot of problems with Rigging in XSI...

It's just a matter of taking the time to learn where everything is ...

Rigging wish the two programs are very simular... not like trying to jump over from somthing like Lightwave say...

yolao
01-30-2007, 02:45 AM
hey yolao... I really think that if you know how to Rigg in Maya then your really not going to have a lot of problems with Rigging in XSI...

It's just a matter of taking the time to learn where everything is ...

Rigging wish the two programs are very simular... not like trying to jump over from somthing like Lightwave say...

hey Norvell, thanks for the info.

Yes, i think you`r right, many apps have similar tools so it`s just a matter of know where things are if you already know the workflow.
I came from maya, but i already learn lots of things about XSI and i`m looking forward to learn more.... i love to learn.:)

Loving XSI so far by the way:thumbsup:
Cheers

jham77
01-30-2007, 10:14 AM
Speaking of v2 request,
Here is mine....

On a cartoon like character, we Do need the stretching feature,
however often times, you know you will never use stretching
feature of a rig. And it sits there anyway to make the
entire rig respond slower.

So how about, prior to the rig creating stage (from the guide)
can you make it so that we can choose from different verisons?
eg) minimal LITE version = no stretching, no fancy stuff
maximum FULL verion = stretching + more stuff.

I ask this, because for me,
responsiveness of a rig is what matters the most.
And as nice as the first Rigging Pro rig was,
it's not the fastest rig around...

I am sure responsiveness has been much improved for
this new version. But still I would love to have that option
to make it even faster.

Thanks Charbel!

amusic
01-30-2007, 10:59 AM
I am sure that when you go through the DVD tutorial you will probably have an idea how to create such option while developing the rig and addon for yourself....my 2 cents

yolao
01-30-2007, 01:31 PM
an important question about the auto generated rig....

I was checking the videos and i see that you have direct control for curl the fingers... which is nice, but what about controls for individual rotation of the articulations?

Curl the entire finger is nice for the natural movement of the fingers... but what about if the character is hanging from something with just the point of one of he`s fingers... or maybe he`s holding something... etc..

Does automatic rigging rigs have individual controls of the articulations of the fingers?

Thanks

jham77
01-30-2007, 02:19 PM
.....how to create such option while developing the rig and addon for yourself....my 2 cents

Well it's a request for AUTOMATIC RIGGING so why should I want to do it myself:D.
Of course I can make each rig for all my characters but I do not have that much
time to complete my project. And that's why I am eagerly waiting for this AUTOMATIC RIGGING addon. Thanks.

3DQUAKERS
01-30-2007, 03:13 PM
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=100126)jham77, I logged your request for v2, although you should be able to do it yourself as suggested after studying the DVD.

yolao, this can already be done with Animation Layes in case you were using XSI 6.

I would like to point out that this release, the Automatic Rigging Addon, is not meant to be a commercial plugin, but an educational document that is meant to help you guys create whatever rig you need to have through simple scripting. If it was meant to be a full-fledged plugin, I would have written it in C++ and released it as a dll.
So the purpose here is to instruct how to build a scripted plugin and not to sell you a commercial addon. In other words, in case some features do not exactly fit your needs, it's your job to actually scratch your heads and implement them based on what you would have learned from the lessons.
I hope this is clear for everyone.

yolao
01-30-2007, 05:14 PM
thanks Charbel for clear that up.

Some questions.

-Is there any difference in doin the auto rig in simple scripting opposite to C++?.... is the rig faster if you do it in C++?

-If i need to add something like a tail to the automatic rigging i need to know first how to rig to then do it automatically, therefore i will need to buy also the DVD riggingPRO.. is that right?

3dtutorial
01-30-2007, 05:41 PM
Compiled C++ operators are always faster than scripted operators.

3DQUAKERS
01-30-2007, 07:45 PM
Thie rig would be faster to generate if it was written in C++.
My point was that the new rig is written in a scripting language so that the code can be studied and expanded on if needed.

If you haven't got RiggingPRO first, I'm afraid you will not make much out of Automatic Rigging (in terms of learning how to rig) unless you are a really proficient rigger. I will not be going over any rigging concepts in Automatic Rigging. Rather, I will be implementing acquired concepts (from RiggingPRO) through scripting.

3dtutorial
01-30-2007, 07:47 PM
Hi Charbel,

Exactly!

I along with others am looking forward to this series - rock on!

BTW - for those of you who haven't purchased RiggingPRO yet, you should, it's excellent and I recommend it highly.

Cheers,

Joe

3DQUAKERS
01-30-2007, 07:50 PM
Thanks a lot Joe. I really appreciate this coming from you.

3dtutorial
01-30-2007, 07:55 PM
Thanks a lot Joe. I really appreciate this coming from you.

You are very welcome indeed!

RiggingPRO is a really good series and people should support your efforts because they WILL learn many good and useful techniques.

I'm always happy to support producers of excellent training material.

Cheers,

Joe

norvman
01-30-2007, 11:41 PM
Curl the entire finger is nice for the natural movement of the fingers... but what about if the character is hanging from something with just the point of one of he`s fingers... or maybe he`s holding something... etc..

In the Rigging Pro DVD it's made clear that everything is setup to opperate a sort of in IK_FK mode... that is to say, you can move the character Automaticaly with the controls or you can go right in and grab a Rotation and set it manually for that 'tricky' stuff...

On a cartoon like character, we Do need the stretching feature,
however often times, you know you will never use stretching
feature of a rig. And it sits there anyway to make the
entire rig respond slower.

I am not sure I have noticed the slow down my self... but the 'streching' part of the rigg really ends up being only one script... (granted attached to sveral bones in the rig...).... It's really not hard to delete them....

(sceen from pleasantville... when bud says...)
"Yah go head... you can do it... you really can.... " ;)


To: Joe and Charbel...
Man I have been learning from both of you guys DVDs
One of these days I will show you the Frankenstein I have created from the mix... ha!

:bowdown:

bryann
01-31-2007, 01:07 PM
Rigging Pro is a great DVD. I haven't picked up ACR from Joe yet but I'm really looking forward to it. And speaking of, Joe, is the bundle for all four volumes gone for good? Say it ain't so, Joe! :)

3dtutorial
01-31-2007, 01:51 PM
Rigging Pro is a great DVD. I haven't picked up ACR from Joe yet but I'm really looking forward to it. And speaking of, Joe, is the bundle for all four volumes gone for good? Say it ain't so, Joe! :)

I'm sorry to say that the reduced bundle price is no longer available.

I should point out that it was only ever intended to be a special "introductory" offer which did in fact run for nearly 3 years!

:-)

But if my memory is correct you and your studio have been pretty good clients, so I'm happy to offer you a discount of some sort. Contact me via email and I will see what I can work out for you. Hope that will help somewhat.

Cheers,

Joe

FB_Turbine
01-31-2007, 02:21 PM
Charbel,

I was wondering if the sample scenes and addon will be available to version 5 and 6 users or if your updating everything to 6?

PS> I'll add my voice to saying the Rigging DVD is excellent.

yolao
01-31-2007, 05:43 PM
Thie rig would be faster to generate if it was written in C++.


thanks for the answer.

-There is no problem if the rigs take longer to generate, but my question is would it be slower for viewport animation playback and manipulation?

3dtutorial
01-31-2007, 05:51 PM
Again... scripted operations will run slower than ones that have been compiled.
That's the point of compiling them.
If you need maximum speed, learn how to optimize your code and compile scripted operators using C++

yolao
01-31-2007, 06:19 PM
Again... scripted operations will run slower than ones that have been compiled.
That's the point of compiling them.
If you need maximum speed, learn how to optimize your code and compile scripted operators using C++

thanks for answer

3dtutorial
01-31-2007, 06:41 PM
BTW - My comments are made in "general" and should no way be taken as negative statement toward what Charbel is doing or how his rigging technology may or may not react in production.

Hey it's great that he's not compiling them, that way you can study his code and learn how to write your own -- and that's the whole point !

Since like you, I don't yet have the new RiggingPRO kit I can't comment about what the viewport or interaction speed may or may not be. Therefore I am only speaking in general terms and it's very possible that Charbel's rig may be plenty quick enough (as is often the case) with well built and thought out technology.

I am just saying that in general terms if one has a rig consisting of many purely scripted operators and one that is composed of many compiled C++ operators the one with the compiled operators will be much faster to evaluate.

Cheers,

joe

norvman
01-31-2007, 10:40 PM
not really being a 'programmer' myself...
but having some real live programmer freinds...
they tell me that 'compiled code of any kind is always faster because a 'compiler' simply converts the programing language code... C++, Fortran, Python, Basic, etc... in to machine language that the computer chips themselves 'speak' and therefore spend less time 'translating' what it is you want done... that equates into speed and computer responsiveness on the user end of things...

3DQUAKERS
02-01-2007, 06:04 AM
What Joe and Novman said about compiled operators is correct. This is not however the purpose of Automatic Rigging, which is meant to teach how to build scripted plugins.


@Turbine, I will release scenes with both XSI 5.1 and XSI 6.
I am glad to note that the Addon will work the exact same way in both versions. I had to rewrite some of the functions to make that possible , but in the end, it made up for a more universal script.

yolao
02-01-2007, 01:11 PM
thanks Joe and Norvell, that`s great information, as i said i mostly a maya user that want to learn more of this fantastic app XSI, i have just heard great things about 3DQUAKERS and 3DTUTORIAL training material, and i`ll be sure to check out the rigging training material of both.

I`m not very interested at all in programing stuff, but it has been said that everyone that learns rigging has to learn a little bit of scripting as well, so i think this will be a good time to do that.

hey Charbel, would the auto face rigging also be a DVD training material or it will be just a plugin?

3DQUAKERS
02-01-2007, 03:04 PM
hey Charbel, would the auto face rigging also be a DVD training material or it will be just a plugin?

I haven't decided yet.

I would like to know the opinion of users though. That would give me a clearer direction.
If AutoFaceRig was released as a plugin, would you guys be interested in a "Making of" DVD to go along with it? Would the DVD be more important than the plugin altogether?

3dtutorial
02-01-2007, 03:22 PM
Hi Charbel,

Well, from my point of view it would be nice to have both. I'd like to see a how 2 create the rig tutorial as well as a how to turn that rig into a compiled plug-in. I think it would also be great to perhaps offer a commercial plug-in for those people who can't be bothered to learn how and do it themselves.

From my point of view, I'm not that keen on just a plug-in because I think it's important to understand how to do these things.

That's my 2 penneth worth ;-)

Cheers,

joe

freeschwag
02-01-2007, 03:26 PM
to be honest, Charbel, I'd much rather learn how to make a good face rig
(hopefully in combination with shape manager) than just hit the button
to auto-rig one. :)

I'd also, however be specifically interested in learning techniques appropriate
for ultimately creating a game-friendly face rig (to export the motion) and
potential considerations for keeping it light enough, yet robust.

cheers.

yolao
02-01-2007, 05:11 PM
Hi Charbel,

Well, from my point of view it would be nice to have both. I'd like to see a how 2 create the rig tutorial as well as a how to turn that rig into a compiled plug-in. I think it would also be great to perhaps offer a commercial plug-in for those people who can't be bothered to learn how and do it themselves.

From my point of view, I'm not that keen on just a plug-in because I think it's important to understand how to do these things.

That's my 2 penneth worth ;-)

Cheers,

joe

i agree with Joe.

Although i will say that please release first the commercial plug-in and then the how to DVD.

I say first the commercial plug-in because that way you will release it faster than if you make at the same time the training material...

Also speaking of scripts and C++ rigs, when animating full body animation i use very low poly versions of the mesh to obtain faster playback, but for facial animation i like to use the full hi res mesh, so if the face rig has fast response is better... so since C++ rigs are faster make the autofacerig with C++, please.

i know that give an estimate release date for the autoface rig is dificult, but a rough estimate would be highly appreciate....


Thanks
Cheers

ebbmeister
02-01-2007, 05:15 PM
I would purchase both. The learning is more important though so if you only make one I would say make the DVD... but it would be nice to have the plugin as well.

Phil

adrencg
02-01-2007, 06:07 PM
Hi Charbel,

Well, from my point of view it would be nice to have both. I'd like to see a how 2 create the rig tutorial as well as a how to turn that rig into a compiled plug-in. I think it would also be great to perhaps offer a commercial plug-in for those people who can't be bothered to learn how and do it themselves.

From my point of view, I'm not that keen on just a plug-in because I think it's important to understand how to do these things.

That's my 2 penneth worth ;-)

Cheers,

joe

As long as the "making of" DVD doesn't slow down the release of the addon. The addon may be just sitting there while some of us who -- while we do care about the "how to" -- would like to just get our hands dirty with the addon and start working.

amusic
02-01-2007, 06:13 PM
well, i would prefer learn curve, but having both is a plus of course. even I would like to use the addon on my characters as soon as i will have the addon will not turn me off from learning to make one on my own therefore who knows what i can catch in the learning process.

FB_Turbine
02-01-2007, 06:49 PM
I'd be more interested in the DVD.

AdFont
02-01-2007, 06:59 PM
Hey Charbel,
I would pay for it now if I knew it was going to be a tutorial. Rigging Pro has been awesome so far and I know you wouldn't dissapoint with the face setup. Looking forward to it.

Font

bryann
02-01-2007, 07:40 PM
Better to teach a man to fish...

gameboy
02-01-2007, 07:42 PM
Perhaps releasing the plug-in first, then followed by a how-to-do-it DVD would be best. With the cost of FaceRobot being so high, I would think a lot of people would jump at the chance to integrate such functionality into their rigs at a fraction of FaceRobot's price. I think your face rigging plug-in (or addon) would be a huge hit. You could build up a large following, generate some revenue very quickly, and after users have had the chance to play around with it for awhile, they will probably be motivated to learn how it was done, or how they can modify the rig to suit their own purposes.

I have already bought a couple of your other DVD's: Rigging Pro and XSI Character Animation 1. I am very pleased with them. In fact, after seeing Automatic Rigging I was so impressed couldn't wait and so I took what I learned from XSI Character Animation 1 and Rigging Pro and scripted a custom hand controller similar to what the Automatic Rigging demo videos showed. I can't wait to get the DVD's because I'm curious to see how you handled the guide-to-rig automation.

Nicely done, and keep up the good work Charbel! :thumbsup:

JDex
02-01-2007, 08:13 PM
Well, if we're looking for opinions... I'd say both would be great. I'm not 100% sure we'd get the compiled version, but the DVD is still number 3 on our "need the damn thing asap" list here.

janimatic
02-01-2007, 09:37 PM
make sure you include the source code !

Mechis
02-01-2007, 10:10 PM
to be honest, Charbel, I'd much rather learn how to make a good face rig (hopefully in combination with shape manager) than just hit the button to auto-rig one. :)
cheers.

I agree. I'm more interested in learning how to create a face rig and make sure the shapes blend well and also all the techniques for making a good facial setup.
~Mechis

norvman
02-01-2007, 11:45 PM
Well cast my vote for both...

I could certainly use a good face rigging plugin right up front... and soon for a project I wanting to finish out soon...

But frankly I am beginning to get the Rigging bug full steam now so I can't avoid saying that I am waaaaaay more interested in the "learning how" DVD...

:wip:

Sbowling
02-02-2007, 12:23 AM
I haven't decided yet.

I would like to know the opinion of users though. That would give me a clearer direction.
If AutoFaceRig was released as a plugin, would you guys be interested in a "Making of" DVD to go along with it? Would the DVD be more important than the plugin altogether?

For me the DVD is much more important, but I would like the completed script to be included (like in rigging pro) so I can reference it to help with trouble shooting. With character rigs, I've never used the default setup. I always find something that doesn't work the way I like to work, or doesn't do something that I want (does something I don't need) and being able to modify the source (and having the know-how to modify it), is extremely important to me.

yolao
02-02-2007, 01:30 AM
well, i think many of us are interested in both; the autofacerig and the how to dvd.

the question is which one to release first.

I think is important to remark that we are talking here about an "autofacerig" system, not just of a "how to rig a face," therefore the "how to material" could be two DVDs and not just one....one that teach "how to rig a face" and later one that teach "how to do it automatically."

Also being a face rig i will say that is important to write the plugin with c++.

There are already some training material about how to rig a face... 3d tutorial have one, i haven`t see it yet but i heard is very very good...:thumbsup: as any 3dtutorial product.
http://www.3dtutorial.com/xsi.php?detail=35

but there are not training material of how to do it aumatically and there is no plugin as far as i know with the exception of face robot that rig the face automatically... not just in xsi but in any app.

Charbel will be the first in release a plugin for autorig a face as far as i know..

I never been a fan of any "auto make thing"... NEVER... but i think that an automatic rig for the body and the face is diferent, because what it does automatically is the technical programming part.... thinks like "set driven keys for IK/FK blending", set up the orientations...etc....

So my vote again is PLEASE release first the autofacerig plugin in C++ and then the how to dvd..

thanks

ThE_JacO
02-02-2007, 01:42 AM
Also being a face rig i will say that is important to write the plugin with c++.


Alright, held myself back insofar in the face of some of the posts, but now I have to let this off my chest:

yeah, and then watch while every single person buying it can't get the thing anywhere.
the thread insofar has been atrociously fraught with misconceptions and blatant ignorance about programming in general. The way scripting languages, compiling, the various languages and benefits have been portraied is clearly renting a house somewhere on the 5th in the twilight zone.

Don't assume that C++ automagically makes a rig faster.
Rigs' speed is often determined by a bottleneck, which only seldom is the execution time of some code that might be part of it, and when that's the case it means that it's normally a rig that also has some fairly complex backend supporting it, and that kind of stuff would take a single person a long time to put together, let alone document it and teach it.

C++ is a subject in its own right that takes a neophite anything between several month and several years to START appreciating, and involves a considerable learning lag before you start having any use for it.

Last but not least I'm not even sure Charbel writes in C++, and even if he did teaching it is an entirely different ballgame and would require several hundred pages of literature.

Bottom line: don't go all out asking and commenting unless you have a grasp of the subject that's more then primitive.

3dtutorial
02-02-2007, 01:57 AM
For the record, my ACR series, volume 3 shows how to set up a facial rig in Softimage XSI.
Despite the fact that I published this 3 or so years ago, it's still valid and demonstrates one possible way of doing things. Of course, it can be taken much further, improved and made a lot cooler using a 2007 mindset. So it's not like there are no facial rigging resources available, just see the link below.

http://www.3dtutorial.com/xsi.php?detail=35

Cheers,

joe

yolao
02-02-2007, 02:12 AM
Don't assume that C++ automagically makes a rig faster.


I don`t assume anything, read the previous pages and you will see that i was asking about scripts and C++ and wich one is faster, the answer was C++, that`s why i request the plugin to be write in C++....as simple as that... i just write a line about it:eek::eek:....

like this:
Also being a face rig i will say that is important to write the plugin with c++.

i also was checking the cat promotion video and they also mention that their system is build up in C++ because is faster.

I don`t know anything about programming, Charbel can write the plugin in any way he wants.:)

Cheers

yolao
02-02-2007, 02:15 AM
Last but not least I'm not even sure Charbel writes in C++,


it is obvious that you haven`t read a single page of this thread.

I will use your own words

"don't go all out asking and commenting unless you have a grasp of the subject that's more then primitive"

ShadowM8
02-02-2007, 02:17 AM
The speed of the facial rig will very much depend on its complexity, the autorig portion of it while nice and interesting, bares no weight in terms of how efficient the rig is, and therefore it really makes very little difference whether it is compiled or not.

Here's a question for educators. I myself have taught classes before, do training at my workplace and really enjoy helping people but I've been wondering lately about the rational behind the level of training and its easy accessibility. I can't help but think sometimes that releasing materials like "complete guide to face robot" for 60$ a dvd is not very beneficial to the industry.
There are many reasons for this that come to mind. One common problem that arises is people who can follow instruction of a DVD end up in production with no real skill or knowledge to rely upon. This is especially detrimental in technical positions like rigging.
You also have to consider that to develop a rigging system in-house people are getting paid real money, and when all of the sudden the bank of knowledge and code becomes available for 60$ its a problem.
So basically I've just been debating with myself whether its good or bad and how in-depth the training should be and so on.
If you've got opinion on this please do share.

norvman
02-02-2007, 02:44 AM
ThE_JacO..
Last but not least I'm not even sure Charbel writes in C++, and even if he did teaching it is an entirely different ballgame and would require several hundred pages of literature.


Please qoute for us all where anyone other than yourself was asking Charbel to teach us all C++....

ThE_JacO
02-02-2007, 02:47 AM
it is obvious that you haven`t read a single page of this thread.
please point me to the part where Charbel states that he's fluent in C++, I might have missed it.


ThE_JacO..
Please qoute for us all where anyone other than yourself was asking Charbel to teach us all C++....

Charbel produces training material, people were suggesting to have part of a rig he wants to publish about in C++, add 2 and 2 together please... unless we want to argue semantics.

3dtutorial
02-02-2007, 02:55 AM
You also have to consider that to develop a rigging system in-house people are getting paid real money, and when all of the sudden the bank of knowledge and code becomes available for 60$ its a problem.
So basically I've just been debating with myself whether its good or bad and how in-depth the training should be and so on.
If you've got opinion on this please do share.


Well, I understand what you are saying but you are not ever going to keep a lid on knowlege, it's impossible to keep that Genie in the bottle as it were. There will always be someone who will make that information available one way or another, some will even do it for free these days.

I would like to think that I've tried to give people a pretty solid grounding in the fundamentals and the theory behind the training that I offer and I would never advocate training somone to be a "button-pusher". That's why I often find it so amazing these days the many people will not even take the time to do a bit of their own R&D, especially when much of the information they seek is available via many sources.

This is an evolving industry and market and will continue to be so.

Besides the cream always will rise to the top - people who are good at what they do will always find a way.

Cheers,

Joe

ShadowM8
02-02-2007, 03:33 AM
Besides the cream always will rise to the top - people who are good at what they do will always find a way.
Joe
That’s is true. It is however undoubtedly getting harder to compete with the upcoming slew of artists. It is not so prevalent in the technical field just yet due to lack of popularity and educational material. But if you are a moderler, who’s working, you are most likely concerned. I know a lot of my colleagues are. It is simply very difficult in a production environment to stay on top with all the latest tools and techniques, let alone real exploratory practice of your art. Fact is most of your day to day activity does not lend itself to improving your skills, you are more or less doing the same thing you've done before. At least these are the feeling shared by many people I work with.

3dtutorial
02-02-2007, 03:40 AM
That’s is true. It is however undoubtedly getting harder to compete with the upcoming slew of artists. It is not so prevalent in the technical field just yet due to lack of popularity and educational material. But if you are a moderler, who’s working, you are most likely concerned. I know a lot of my colleagues are. It is simply very difficult in a production environment to stay on top with all the latest tools and techniques, let alone real exploratory practice of your art. Fact is most of your day to day activity does not lend itself to improving your skills, you are more or less doing the same thing you've done before. At least these are the feeling shared by many people I work with.

I can understand exactly how you feel and what you are saying.

That's why these days I've gone back to concentraing on my own creative work and less on training of others.

Cheers,

joe

norvman
02-02-2007, 03:42 AM
Charbel produces training material, people were suggesting to have part of a rig he wants to publish about in C++, add 2 and 2 together please... unless we want to argue semantics.


A moderator that doesn't read the post...

I certainly have to vouch for the Rigging Pro tutorial as I am currently going through that... Have learned a lot in a very short period of time
quoting myself here...
I own some of Charbels training material JaKO

Charbel can speak for himself on this subject don't you think? being as it is that he already has done so in this thread...
why don't we get it strait from the horse's mouth?

making 2 plus 2 'assumptions' allways leads to trouble... remember that 2 plus 2 only equals 4 on paper... not in the real world...

ThE_JacO
02-02-2007, 04:10 AM
A moderator that doesn't read the post...


quoting myself here...
I own some of Charbels training material JaKO

Charbel can speak for himself on this subject don't you think? being as it is that he already has done so in this thread...
why don't we get it strait from the horse's mouth?
alright, last post on the subject since we're derailing Char's thread, but here's the spiel:
I DID read the post, where Char says he was wondering whether putting a plug out, a training dvd, or both.
the part about c++ is something that other people brought in, and then things spiralled away with a bunch of craptacular assumptions and halfarsed information about programming, performance, rigging etc.

don't try to twist around what I posted, all I posted about was the misconceptions that insofar have been cascading down in this thread.

the sidenote about the fact that a compiled form would make teaching impossible IS pertinent, as Char was pooling for opinions as well, and if you do something like that (writing in c++) then it means that he's left with just one option, the plugin, because as training material the subject would only be approachable by people who either don't rig (developers), or high profile TDs (who're unlikely to be interested in the material in first place).
He would be left with a minuscule pool of interest to pick from for his material, which would be those very few technically proficient TDs who might want to pick up some ideas from somebody else.

as for whether char can write fluently in C++ or not, that was a sidenote and it was largely irrelevant to what I (re)stated here, my guess still would be that he isn't.

making 2 plus 2 'assumptions' allways leads to trouble... remember that 2 plus 2 only equals 4 on paper... not in the real world...
please spare me the cheap philosophical lecturing.
in first place I didn't make any assumptions, some other people did (that I didn't read the post, which happens to be a wrong assumption). Second some serious selective perspective is happening here, with people conveniently forgetting that the post WAS NOT about just the plugin, but whether to format it like his previous and current release or just as a pluging.
third 2 plus 2 adds to 4 is a figure of speech, and it's tailored to, guess what, presenting a figure, by language, that is pertienent to a real world situation. I kindly ask again to leave the semantics out of this if you really can't avoid arguing the point in such a loopy way.

cheers

freeschwag
02-02-2007, 04:35 AM
Alright, held myself back insofar in the face of some of the posts, but now I have to let this off my chest:

yeah, and then watch while every single person buying it can't get the thing anywhere.
the thread insofar has been atrociously fraught with misconceptions and blatant ignorance about programming in general. The way scripting languages, compiling, the various languages and benefits have been portraied is clearly renting a house somewhere on the 5th in the twilight zone.

Don't assume that C++ automagically makes a rig faster.
Rigs' speed is often determined by a bottleneck, which only seldom is the execution time of some code that might be part of it, and when that's the case it means that it's normally a rig that also has some fairly complex backend supporting it, and that kind of stuff would take a single person a long time to put together, let alone document it and teach it.

C++ is a subject in its own right that takes a neophite anything between several month and several years to START appreciating, and involves a considerable learning lag before you start having any use for it.

Last but not least I'm not even sure Charbel writes in C++, and even if he did teaching it is an entirely different ballgame and would require several hundred pages of literature.

Bottom line: don't go all out asking and commenting unless you have a grasp of the subject that's more then primitive.

ThE_JacO, perhaps you have had a bad day, but does this not come off as a wee bit antagonistic?

Is it really that hard to understand why the folks you were talking down to might respond poorly? :shrug:

It's one thing to clarify misconceptions, but I can't really see why you need to carry on an
argumentative tone seemingly for the sake of appearing the sharpest tool in the shed...

Perhaps we can get back to Charbel's topic, which incidentally, I am greatly interested in
seeing illuminated in DVD format as I do not intend to be a TD, but just have a more
intermediate understanding of rigging.

cheers.

3DQUAKERS
02-02-2007, 05:21 AM
What I want to say at this stage is that I have a clear idea that people are rather interested in learning than just getting hold of the plugin. Therefore there will be a "making of" DVD for any other script/plugin I would release.

Now, as far as programming goes, it's strange how some people can guess with confidence without any real clue to back them up, but I will leave it at that.
Anyway, and to be honest, the main reason why I would consider releasing a compiled plugin is the protection issue, far before the speed issue.
A lot of XSI's own tools are a series of scripts, and there is nothing wrong with that.
The main impact on the speed of a rig, imho, will come down to how complex it is, and not necessarily whether it was built in c++/c# or not.
If I release a compiled plugin, the "making of" would not be about the programming part, but about the rigging concepts. I hope this is clear for everyone.
About my own proficiency in c++, whether I say I can or I can't write in c++ is of no value at all. Future releases will speak for themselves. But what I will say is that I am primarily an animator who finds the need to program some tools to enhance his workflow. And I think that every animator/artist should be in the same boat.

For the issue of releasing advanced scripts at 60$ while companies pay real money for TD's to actually write them, well I see what you mean. But for me, I can never see myself releasing a DVD that goes by the title "Learn how to UV Map in XSI". This has always been a challenge for me, ad that is what drives me. I will never release a title that you can find somewhere else (covering the same techniques that is). So if Automatic Rigging becomes widely availabe, TD's would have to invent something new, something better, and therefore I (and other people like or better than me) would have to come up with even more advanced training material. That is evolution in my opinion, and not a hindrance for anyone.

At the end of the day, I suggest to keep the comments positive. People like Joe and myself hardly make any real money out of this. The last thing we need is a wave of discouragement.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for the confidence folks.

T4D
02-02-2007, 10:09 AM
COOl I look forward to what you release

I can say I would prefer uncompiled Version and a basic oerview of what your doing on that side of things .

I see your protection issues ( hey I sell a rigger for lightwave ) But I'm only thinking of myself and I personally would love to play around in your rigger and play with the systems you create, we all like to change things :D

I do look forward to the release and will be buy as soon as it's out :thumbsup:
there so much in XSI it will be good to get a good look at this side of things :applause:

Sbowling
02-02-2007, 11:47 AM
ThE_JacO, perhaps you have had a bad day, but does this not come off as a wee bit antagonistic?

Is it really that hard to understand why the folks you were talking down to might respond poorly? :shrug:

It's one thing to clarify misconceptions, but I can't really see why you need to carry on an
argumentative tone seemingly for the sake of appearing the sharpest tool in the shed...


Actually, he makes a very good point. If Charbel was going to write a the plugin in C++ the tutorial would most likely be in C++ or he would have to recreate the autorigger in another scripting language, which would make it a different thing altogether. I am not a programmer and I have absolutely Zero interest in a tutorial on writing anything in C++ or any other form of C. It would take me years of study to become proficient enough in C to even think about modifying the code for such a plugin and I don't really have the time or interest to do so. Anyone who is already proficient in C++ should have an easy time in modifying something written in VBS or Jscripts to work in C++, but it doesn't really work the other way around.

My main interest in Charbel's training is to modify it for my own use. There are many things I like about the way he makes his rigs and there are some that I prefer to do differently. The same goes for the training videos from Joe. Lots of great stuff, but I would probably never need to build a shoulder the way Adam does in ACR for the stuff that I do.

As for the C++ stuff, I have been following Charbel's posts and have most of his XSI training videos and I have never seen him mention being able to code in C++ and I have never seen him use C++ in any of the training videos. This is nothing against Charbel, he just brought up the possibility that maybe he can't.

I think the biggest problem with The_JacO's post is he used the term "Ignorant" and most people don't seem to really understand what that word means, and then get all bent out of shape because they are ignorant of the meaning of ignorant.

Anyway, to get back on subject, I would be very interested in the training videos on automating facial rigging, if they are in something like VBscript which I actually understand. I really have no interest in precompiled plugins, of anything I can't tear apart and modify for my own use.

Anyway, I've had a nice, fun, long day dealing with bad hard drives and corrupted registries, so I'm going to bed now. Hopefully everyone will be in a better mood tomorrow.

3dtutorial
02-02-2007, 12:09 PM
.......There are many things I like about the way he makes his rigs and there are some that I prefer to do differently. The same goes for the training videos from Joe. Lots of great stuff, but I would probably never need to build a shoulder the way Adam does in ACR for the stuff that I do.


Just to be very clear, I agree.

Please, I want everyone to understand this. The tutorials that I produce are meant for educational purposes and are not intended or expected to be taken as "this is how you should or must do things". The purpose of Adam's complex shoulder setup is not to suggest that this is how a shoulder should be set up -- rather it is to done to illustrate the point and concept that this is type of thing that is "possible" in XSI to solve complex deformation issues. The entire point is to show the user that with a little bit of thought on their own how they can use these types of techniques on their own to solve a wide range of issues in rigging. For example, the muscle bone setups that are shown can be used in many different areas of the body, not just the shoulder -- you can use them in the hand, the face, you name it. See what we are getting at?

I think a lot of people misunderstand the point of what I and others try to put across in tutorials and tend to take them a bit too literally and this is a danger. So again, I agree with the people who would say that Adam's shoulder setup is over-the-top and needlessly complex, yes, it is. But it was designed as part of a teaching/educational aid that was intended to get the end user thinking about possibilities of how far they could take things if needed. The point that I'm trying to make is that it's up to the end user, the student to do a bit of thinking as well and to put some of these ideas together and come up with their own solutions; afterall that's what learning is about.

So I hope this makes sense and gives people a better understanding of what I am trying to get across with the training that I offer. The end user needs to take these "ideas" and run with them, that's what it is all about.

Cheers,

Joe

yolao
02-02-2007, 12:20 PM
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=100126)If it was meant to be a full-fledged plugin, I would have written it in C++ and released it as a dll.


to The_Jaco

yog
02-02-2007, 12:24 PM
I have both the ACR series from 3D Tutorial and the Rigging Pro from 3D Quakers, and my honest opinion is they compliment each other brilliantly. ACR is much more about controlling the mesh and deformations, whereas Rigging Pro is almost exclusively about controlling deformers.

I take Joe's point about the benifit of learning what you are doing. In fact with only a small amount of my work devoted to character animation, the majority of what I learnt from ACR (which was a lot), I tend to use with non-character models, things I probably wouldn't have thought of unless I was taught to build the elements from scratch.

yolao
02-02-2007, 12:41 PM
oh... and i will say again that i don`t know anything about programming.... all i did was a request for the plugin to be write in C++ because i was told that it was faster... just that..

""I did not make any comments, asummptions or anything on C++.""

1.I ask before if it was faster and the answer several times was yes.
2.Then i just request a couple of times to be in C++.

now please lets not begin a meaningless disccusion here.

NUMBER ONE RULE...JUST BE KIND AND FRIENDLY WITH OTHERS

PEACE:)

janimatic
02-02-2007, 02:19 PM
indeed a rig often use buildin functions, and in that case c++ would not make things faster. (if you call commands from c++ it's exactly like if you call commands from a script).
Unless Charbel is going to write an operator that updates geometry on the fly, but still XSI is one of those rare packages where scripting languages can perform pretty well : you can use the api through scripting and use the builtin api calls (implemented in c++) using callbacks.
I'd say if it's a deformer or a dynamic operator c++ would be an advantage to iterate faster through geometry but the top is to implement in c++ just the critical, low level parts and do all the other things from scripting, because rigging script should be easily customisable, and c++ won't give you that.
Rigging and scripting are very good friends.
I think the Chabel work is particulary intersting because it let you understand and customise it to your production needs.

norvman
02-03-2007, 02:20 AM
Sorry if I have offended ... but I reallly don't like bullys

Sorry JacKO if my line of reasoning escapes you and comes off sounding loopy?...
Please forgive me for speaking above you... I will try to speak more plainly in times future...

Does anyone other than JacKO agree that all yolao was doing was asking...
if the plugin 'could' be done in C++? I for one don't see any place where he was making any demands on Charbel that needed a moderator to step in and and push people about.

he was asking a question...
why jump on him for that...?

as Charbel said... the whole C++ issue was not that important of a thing...

as a far as 'semantics' go...
the meanings of words are open to interpretation to everyone...
So I find it interesting that Mr. JaCKo seams to claim the right to make those 'assumptions' (meanings of words... semantic interpretations... anylictics... delineations... what ever one wishes to call it) for us and that we are all somehow less intelligent than himself in this reguard of making our own decisitions of what is being said...

It appears to me that the conversation was going along just fine and On Topic until.....
The JaCKO steped in throwing accusation and Off topic comment...

Seems to me that all that had to be said was simply that

"no C++ complining won't improve your Rigg's performance... "
or
"yes it will..."
or
"only under certain conditions..."

Being 'ignorant' of any preticular fact is not the sin... the sin is when one tries to take advantage of the 'ignorance' of others...

any of the above points of view still pan out to be only opinion at best...
only what I have seen happen in a preticular instance...
Each of us must absorb that information and interpret it for ourselves...

Perhaps if JacKOs response had been worded with more courtesy I would not have responded in kind.....

Is it any wonder that the XSI forum on CGTalk is such an unpopular place?....

I suppect that is why this preticular section of CGTalk gets such high 'view' numbers and such low 'reply' numbers...

If this all sounds a bit harsh I'm only taking liberty where liberty seems to be the norm... if the moderator can throw inconsideration and asumption around then why can't the rest of us?

If the internet and this forum are not about the exchange of information, knowledge and ideas... and therefore the asking and answering of questions... then what is it for?

Really... if my interacting in these threads is upsetting to any you I can just Lurk...
That is obviously what most do...
I mean it really is more to my advantage to just sit back and lissen and not stick any neck out to say any thing at all...
Let me know if any of you would rather I don't participate...
and I will most certainly will ablige.... It really won't be any skin off my back to do so...
I partisipate now to 'give back' what I have gained in times past from others...

..............................................................Wa! (chang of subject and back on topic)

I too have both ACR tutorials and the Charbel Rigging DVD
I don't know that I would want to do whithout either one of them...
there is of course an over lap in both... in that they both cover Rigging a human figure... but there is much in both that is different... just the separate approachs that each take in there construction of a Rigg is worth the 'seeing' to anyone interested in the Rigging process... Charbel really goes in and gives one some heavy practice at using constraints and the scripting together of them in a detailed and practiced way. At the same time there is not much on Enveloping in the RiggingPro DVD where as the ACR DVDs seem to go over this extensively.... I think he has done exactly what he has said he intended to do and that is give more information that we have not seen in other places...
the ACR DVDs I can't say enough good things about either...

I intend to keep them both in the tutorial business as long as possable...

I also realize that there are areas of 3D that hold less intrest for me,
And so from that perspective I realize that it is a good thing to have a 'plugin' for those non-Riggers amoung us.... not everyone is into Rigging... give em' a plug...
Not everyone is a Lighting TD...
nor an excellent modeller...
Some of us just do Buildings...
etc...

Finally...
Like placing fingers in the first leaking holes in an dam about to burst,
When it comes to trying to hold back the tide of information and change...
limiting the spread of it... that is a futile struggle that you will not win...
people will find out what they need to find out...
and those that find out first might as well be the benefactors of the information in the first place...
Cause someone else will 'sell it' sooner or later...

I have never met a Teacher that did not benefit by their Instruction of others... either financailly or in other ways...

This is why there are Copyright Laws in place, because someone in times past realized that the first one to think of it really should be the one to benefit from it... cause there was not any way to stop it...

SheepFactory
02-03-2007, 04:24 AM
Is it any wonder that the XSI forum on CGTalk is such an unpopular place?....

I suppect that is why this preticular section of CGTalk gets such high 'view' numbers and such low 'reply' numbers...

.

Perhaps its because we dont have any useless posts here like yours?

Are you trying to be annoying on purpose? what the hell is "jaCKo"

You are really starting to get on my nerve and consider as your first and last warning. You have not contributed a single useful thing in this forum since the day you joined and if its bothering you the way its run feel free to leave.

Sorry to be blunt but this is not the lightwave forum and we dont need flamewars here.

mdee
02-03-2007, 08:43 AM
I'd personally not be interested in compiled plugin.

I treat rigging as application independent thing as much as possible and often use methods developed purely in Maya to rig in XSI and the other way around. Honestly, I never followed any dvd step by step, just take bits and pieces which I like and I usually modify things a lot.

norvman
02-03-2007, 04:59 PM
You got it Sheep...

I'm gone

hope you have fun producing all the 'useful' comments that you and WaCKO can come up with...

SheepFactory
02-03-2007, 05:52 PM
You got it Sheep...

I'm gone

hope you have fun producing all the 'useful' comments that you and WaCKO can come up with...

http://elizabeta.blogg.se/images/medium_champagne_pop_1136067689.jpg

you will be missed.

DougNicola
02-03-2007, 10:46 PM
Therefore there will be a "making of" DVD for any other script/plugin I would release.


This is great to hear, Charbel. Rock on!

~Doug

madheavy
02-04-2007, 08:56 AM
Charbel, thanks for everything that you're doing for the community. Joe thanks you very much for your contributions as well. Those who use your tutorials have learned much and improved their workflow.

I don't know why the people who are in charge of this forum do not set a good example in the way we should post or in how we should respect one another....but that's a question for another day.

Keep up the excellent work. I'd prefer RiggingPro to be a tutorial which teaches us how to build auto rigging scripts with a add-on included if possible.

T4D
02-05-2007, 08:32 AM
you will be missed.

it's sad to see a Mod, post such negative BS to the forum they should be moding :sad:

XSI forums are already far too silence With Pro's holding far too much to they chest
and who started in the Age of XSI being $10000 Plus ,. WE Don't live in that world anymore

We need to open it up and promote More chat and opinion and a more easy going attuide
Newbies are less likely to post anything Questions, Advice or just opinion if the head mod is attacking and posting BS like this

sad SheepFactory, just Sad :sad: Look at the big picture dude !! :curious:

3dtutorial
02-05-2007, 11:57 AM
it's sad to see a Mod, post such negative BS to the forum they should be moding :sad:

XSI forums are already far too silence With Pro's holding far too much to they chest
and who started in the Age of XSI being $10000 Plus ,. WE Don't live in that world anymore

We need to open it up and promote More chat and opinion and a more easy going attuide
Newbies are less likely to post anything Questions, Advice or just opinion if the head mod is attacking and posting BS like this

sad SheepFactory, just Sad :sad: Look at the big picture dude !! :curious:



I have to agree.

Overall, I don't think this was the best way to treat a newcomer to XSI.

I know that we are all very passionate about what we do and think but it's always important to treat others with respect and courtesy even if we don't like their views.

Like it or not, this guy has gone away with a bad taste in his mouth about XSI and the people who use it, and that's not a good thing for any of us. It's easy to say "Who cares, Sod him" but if new users get the impression that all XSI users are "difficult" then overall it's not a fertile ground for encouraging new users to come and join us.

I think we should all try and be a bit more tolerant and accepting toward others, I see that as a very positive thing.

Peace.

Joe

ThE_JacO
02-05-2007, 12:06 PM
To nobody in particular:
20PMs and an increase in traffic follow positively some useless twerp (not meaning norvman in particular here, so don't drag it on) leaving. Another 20 whinge about a harsh attitude in the face of mis-information, but those same people won't hesitate to complain when the forum gets swamped by "how do I get a cube" posts.

What the hell are we supposed to do? and HOW do you know what works and what doesn't for the forum when all you see is one thread?

Serious, anybody's tired of this shit? Nobody more then I am.

I posted -2- posts because I was fed up and lined up like a duvet with all the jumping around, BSing and preaching that some people took as a habit, I stopped posting in the face of insults to try and not send the thread more OT, and people kept it coming (and we can't delete posts to get a thread back on topic or we get called censuring gestapo).

file a complaint to an admin, apply for a mod position, and either get shit together and done or stop coming out of the woodwork only when it's cool because there's an oppressed antiestabilishment mob backing up the whinging.

I don't remember the feelgood PC people ever posting a single useful answer that went past where to find something to click.

thanks for nothing.

Pixelmech
02-05-2007, 01:50 PM
Let me yank this thread back on topic with a stupid question :) Watched the video, it looks really great. But somewhere I missed something... This is a training DVD, where is the actual plugin (not sure if that is the correct word?)? Looking on the 3DQuakers site, I see lots of training DVDs but not any plugins... nothing called RiggingPro.

I'm new to XSI so maybe I am missing something completely obvious. I'm working on training as an animator and I don't want to get bogged down in rigging theory or learning to be an expert rigger (at least, not just yet) - I want to animate, so something like this would be perfect.

For Animation:Master, we had The Setup Machine which set up your rig and controls, and I was hoping there was something like that for XSI, which this seems to be..except for my confusion....

LemonNado
02-05-2007, 03:20 PM
Tom
The DVD will be about the creation of that autorig system, but the final product will be on the dvd as well (as far as I know). So if you do not like to spend the time to get very familiar with it, then I guess that you can simply apply the final result and dive into the details if you wish it to behave differently. But no, it will not be training material for a particular plugin. The plugi is the result of the training, which leads to it's creation.

Besides that, C++ does not make any sense as the introduction of additional complexity is not justified in relation to a very little gain in execution speed. In case of the riging system, the called functions are representing more than 80% of the computations necessary.

Rigs and generators are 'conducting' the behaviour of the animation machinery in the background.

Involving C++ for this would require the introduction into C++, the flavor used, version control, and a bunch of other external helpers. A scripting language will bring the same insight into algorithms without the aditional balast. The scripting language has to be prefered simply from an educational point of view. After the tutorial is worked through, every body familiar with C++ and the XSI SDK can translate the scripts into compiled code. It's all about the idea behind the setup, less about the proficiency in a specific programing language.

Cheers
Rainer

PS:Intreresting to see how some people react under pressure. Also in regards to future contract oportunities.

Pixelmech
02-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Hmm...now I'm really confused, LOL.

RiggingPRO Softimage XSI
http://3dquakers1.com/webroot5/review.php?id=10

Is what we are talking about, correct?
The page states it "is an advanced rigging training kit for Softimage XSI. It's designed from the ground up to offer solid rigging training for aspiring and professional animators/riggers alike."

According to the site, it is a training DVD about "advanced rigging training DVD for Softimage XSI. It features IK FK Blending, arm leg spine stretching, custom paramters, Automatic and Manual Twisting, color coding and much more."

You get a humanoid model with it to rig along with the lessons - that much I get.

My question is this: is there an actual addon for XSI that is part of rigging pro? Kind of like TheSetupMachine that actually *rigs your own models for you* and then you just use the controls supplied?

Or -

Does the DVD only teach you a theory on rigging that simply uses the software as shipped? The page states it requires requires "basic knowledge of the XSI Expression system, as well as parenting and the Parameter Connection Editor." - but no other plugins.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but I'm just trying to figure out what exactly I am buying. If it's just the training itself, I still like it, but I like it more if it is training and an addon that sets up your own models too.

Thanks

Tom

3DQUAKERS
02-05-2007, 06:01 PM
Tom,

RiggingPRO is a training DVD that teaches you techniques for professional rigging in XSI.
It ships with the finished rig.

There is another DVD, currently being finalized, called Automatic Rigging, that will teach you how to build a series of scripts that generate the RiggingPRO rig automatically, similar to the Setup Machine. The DVD will also ship with the Addon that you can use right away.
The concept of that DVD is to teach how to use simple scripting to generate a scripted plugin using VBscript and JScript.
I should note that if you intend to learn about rigging, rather than just generate your rigs automatically, you should start off with RiggingPRO, as it is a recemmended prerequisite for the Automatic Rigging DVD.

I hope this is clear.

Pixelmech
02-05-2007, 06:14 PM
Thanks Charbel, that does clear it up. One more question, the rig that ships with RiggingPro - is that a rig that can be adapted to any biped character? Or would you have to use those concepts from scratch on your own model?

DVD looks great, something I am definitely going to get.

SheepFactory
02-05-2007, 07:17 PM
it's sad to see a Mod, post such negative BS to the forum they should be moding :sad:

XSI forums are already far too silence With Pro's holding far too much to they chest
and who started in the Age of XSI being $10000 Plus ,. WE Don't live in that world anymore

We need to open it up and promote More chat and opinion and a more easy going attuide
Newbies are less likely to post anything Questions, Advice or just opinion if the head mod is attacking and posting BS like this

sad SheepFactory, just Sad :sad: Look at the big picture dude !! :curious:


What are you talking about? There was no witholding of information in this forum by the pros. Raffaele alone helped more beginner xsi users here than the rest of us combined , if you want verification check the post history.

Point me to ONE instance where we moderated without justification. If you insult the forum leaders like norvman kept on doing dont expect any symphathy from me.

So let this thread get back on track now and if you have anything further to say you can pm me or Raffaele.

3DQUAKERS
02-05-2007, 08:57 PM
Thanks Charbel, that does clear it up. One more question, the rig that ships with RiggingPro - is that a rig that can be adapted to any biped character? Or would you have to use those concepts from scratch on your own model?

DVD looks great, something I am definitely going to get.

The rig that ships with RiggingPRO is for study purposes. It is not adaptable.

LemonNado
02-06-2007, 12:32 AM
I am sure it will make you a better animator if you go through it once. You will know the background well and nobody can tell you rubbish about rigging. It took me a week to go through it the forst time. Now I can set one up on a good day.
Cheers
Rainer

Watch this and laugh hard 8):

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

madheavy
02-06-2007, 02:44 AM
I am sure it will make you a better animator if you go through it once. You will know the background well and nobody can tell you rubbish about rigging. It took me a week to go through it the forst time. Now I can set one up on a good day.
Cheers
Rainer

Watch this and laugh hard 8):

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

Thanks very nice to know. I'm 'working' my way thru riggingpro right now, and was wondering how long it'd take to do it once I've done it a couple of times.

madheavy
02-07-2007, 01:10 PM
One thing that I've noticed (I'm sure everyone allllready did) that in the Incredibles that had rigs that allowed them to bend the arms and legs a bit to make a pose more striking. Raf Anzovin's Setup Machine calls this "Hyperextension." LINK. (http://www.anzovin.com/TSM2Maya/)

This would definitely be something cool to have in an autorigger. Is this really difficult to create?

FB_Turbine
02-07-2007, 04:10 PM
While I understand this will be a scripting tutorial. I would be very much like the dvd to spend a little time talking about some of the difference in approach or structure to making an compiled addon rather then using scripts. I think those of us that have experience with compiled languages, but new to XSI, can deal with transferring the logic or finding needed commands in the SDK ourselves, once we understand the process. But understanding what transfers, general pitfalls, and the different requirements of having the code in an addon compared to scripts would be of great benefit.

Sbowling
02-09-2007, 06:58 AM
Just to be very clear, I agree.

Please, I want everyone to understand this. The tutorials that I produce are meant for educational purposes and are not intended or expected to be taken as "this is how you should or must do things". The purpose of Adam's complex shoulder setup is not to suggest that this is how a shoulder should be set up -- rather it is to done to illustrate the point and concept that this is type of thing that is "possible" in XSI to solve complex deformation issues.


I think a lot of people misunderstand the point of what I and others try to put across in tutorials and tend to take them a bit too literally and this is a danger. So again, I agree with the people who would say that Adam's shoulder setup is over-the-top and needlessly complex, yes, it is. But it was designed as part of a teaching/educational aid that was intended to get the end user thinking about possibilities of how far they could take things if needed.

I think my post came across the wrong way. My reason for never needing a shoulder rig like Adam set up is because most of my work is very cartoony. I don't have the time to create an elaborate rig or extremely realistic characters because of time constraints and short deadlines.

I found the ACR series to be extremely helpful in getting started with Rigging and I still go back to it often for reference. It is the first tutorial I recommend when people ask about getting started in rigging in XSI (the second is Rigging pro).

I guess the point I was making was that I never create the rigs exactly the way they are done in the tutorials. I use my own characters and I adapt the rig to do what I want. I find this is a better education because It forces me to do a lot of problem solving on my own instead of just blindly following every step done in the tutorial. In fact, what I usually do is watch the tutorial and take some notes, then try to create my own rig using the techniques shown in the tutorial and only go back for reference when I have a problem I can't solve on my own.

This is one of the reasons I recommend that people get the ACR series before the Rigging pro series. The ACR series gives much more of a general rigging education where the Rigging pro shows how to set up a very specific rig and does not cover multiple ways to do things the way the ACR series does. The Rigging pro rig is very nice, but without a good education on how to rig, you would basically be stuck with that rig and have a lot of problems modifying it to your specific needs.

adrencg
02-10-2007, 03:27 AM
Charbel, while I'm anxiously awaiting the release of your new DVD I came across this post on XSi Blog about SoftIK.

http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/108

Is there a way to apply this plugin to your rig? I'm not suggesting going back and re-engineering anything -- I was trying to run it on the old rig(from the riggingPro DVD), and it doesn't seem to work -- even though it's extremely easy to apply and works with a basic skeleton chain. You know the real nuts and bolts of your system, and if you took a look at it you'd probably know instantly whether or not its possible in your setup -- or what we would have to do to make it work if it is possible.

If you haven't seen it yet, it may be of some interest to you...

3DQUAKERS
02-10-2007, 04:26 AM
I did try the Soft IK plugin when it was first released. It does indeed work with RiggingPRO or any other rig.
I thing I have a version of RiggingPRO with Soft IK applied to the feet. Email me if you want to check it out.

Ejecta
02-20-2007, 05:34 PM
Im curious what the hold up is on the Auto Rigger DVD.

3DQUAKERS
02-20-2007, 06:35 PM
No hold up. I am doing the editing at the moment.
Working on it full time, so it won't be long now.

dwigfor
03-19-2007, 05:14 PM
Still waiting... How's it going Charbel?

3DQUAKERS
03-20-2007, 04:51 AM
Any day now, David. I will post the announcement in a new thread.

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