PDA

View Full Version : VRay-like interior renders with mental ray???


tryhard
11-14-2006, 07:37 AM
OK, your right.

There is already this great thread in the Maya Section.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=190232&page=1&pp=15

So why do i open up a new thread over here?

There is a simple answer: Because i use 3DS Max - and, Mental Ray in 3DS Max is not exactly the same as in Maya. The structure, the principles are the almost the same. But the problem is in reality. When i try to follow these maya tutorials it takes a lot of time to "fake" their results because you don´t have the same tools, shaders, ...

But if you look at these rendertimes and the quality you will understand why I start this thread. And the ctrl shaders (renderpasses, tonemapping ...) for example ... are also available for 3DS Max ...

There are some interior scenes available, like the classroom:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=190232&page=101&pp=15

the howard room:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=190232&page=79&pp=15&highlight=howard

the contest "Render Engines Challenge V1" big picture:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=190232&page=97&pp=15


I think a first step is to decide for one scene. I prefer the classroom.

What do you guys think ??? Any commend is welcome


tryhard


THE AGENDA

Step 1
my idea is to start with a daylight setup. No textures just pure light grey material to tweak the lghts and to discuss different approaches for each situation (mrSunSky, Photometric Arealights, mr Area Spot, ... )
A.) just daylight
B.) daylight mixed with interior lights
C.) extreme/experimental light situations (flashlight, lightobjects, ...)

Step 2 optimize final mixed daylight with real materials and tweak the lights
Step 3 optimize the materials (walls, floor, windows ...)
- reflection/refraction
- round corners
- ambient occlusion
- ...

i will take care of this Agenda in form of a downloadable PDF file and as text on page one of that thread ... therefore i would need some help because i am no native speaker ...



THE RULES
- Unit Setup in mm
- the testscene should stay as it is - no model changes
- to be continued

INFORMATION about your scene
- Lights
- Rendersettings
- Rendertimes / CPU
- to be continued

Abraham
11-14-2006, 09:05 AM
That's a most excellent idea :) Mental Ray can produce extremly good results and speed is also good so gathering infos in a thread and sharing our experiences would definitly be a great thing :)

J-L

loran
11-14-2006, 04:25 PM
great Idea! I'll post soon!! I just post a thread about GI tutorial for Max MR yesterday:
here are the links peoples send :
the most interesting is the Dagon one:
http://www.treddi.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8436



http://www.theqball.com/tutorials/mr-exterior/


and interior

http://www.vizdepot.com/modules.php?name=C...ewarticle&id=65 (http://www.vizdepot.com/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=65)

http://www.evermotion.org/tutorials/render...erior/index.htm (http://www.evermotion.org/tutorials/rendering/mr_interior/index.htm)


studio tutorial..ish!

http://www.simonreeves.co.uk/tutori...o/studiotut.htm (http://www.simonreeves.co.uk/tutorials/studio/studiotut.htm)

SoLiTuDe
11-14-2006, 07:59 PM
sounds like a great idea, but instead of making it say Vray-Like interiors... I think the thread should be named mental ray - lighting kind of like the shaders thread it should also be a sticky, so long as we actually get enough good information out if it, since I remember there being a thread like this a long time ago, but I don't remember it going too far... my 2 cents :)

petere
11-14-2006, 09:05 PM
Hello,

I was told by the OP to post the car I lit, put materials and rendered in mental ray this this thread.

Link to the post (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4004781&postcount=3582)

I don't really get the point with this thread "look like vray"? - Is vray some kind of norm?

Here is another image I have made as a test (the idea for the corridor is from a well known maxwell image).

http://firefox.itn.liu.se/animatebilder/korridor2.jpg

Here is an animation of the same corridor (http://firefox.itn.liu.se/animatebilder/korridor.mov)

This corridor is rendered in max8 with mentalray 3.4

-P

TAVO
11-14-2006, 09:41 PM
where can i download the classroom scene? i don´t find any link, please put some link to that scene. This thread can be great to see the new MentalRay engine or any other previous versions, well i hope i can get the link to the scene to start making some test.

tryhard
11-14-2006, 09:56 PM
... OK,

you want it, so you get it. Here is the link:

Classroom2 (http://rapidshare.com/files/3379003/classroom_2.zip.html)

Hope it works

tryhard

loran
11-14-2006, 11:00 PM
So here is my first technical lquestion.:
Is there a better way to do tonemapping within max but the "caca boudin" old logaritmic exposure. I heard a lot about Francesca Luce ctrl_buffer but does it works well for max and how does it works?
thx peoples :)

Spacelord
11-15-2006, 03:25 AM
So here is my first technical lquestion.:
Is there a better way to do tonemapping within max but the "caca boudin" old logaritmic exposure. I heard a lot about Francesca Luce ctrl_buffer but does it works well for max and how does it works?
thx peoples :)

I haven't seen ctrl_buffers for Max yet.
Maxplugins seem to be up to date with mental Ray shaders and its not listed.
http://www.maxplugins.de/mentalray.php
I'd really like to ctrl_buffers for 3dsmax, I was using it in XSI
and its a powerfull shader.
Great for rendering separate object passes with alpha.

The logarithmic bit, I prefer using it to tonemapping, well it does do tonemapping
for what I understand. Logarithmic is great in 3dsmax9, I have troubles everynow and then trying to get the right colour saturation, but its pretty good.

cheers

tryhard
11-15-2006, 07:00 AM
... OK Duncan, here they are

i have the ctrl shaders and they "work" in max. The only question is: how do the work? No documentation. Duncan if you know, please share your knowledge :-)

In 3ds max 9 you install them in:
...\3dsMax9\mentalray\shaders_standard ...dll where the dll files are ...mi where the ...mi files are ...

You have to make them active by including these lines into "standard.mi (open with notepad)

link "ctrl_irradiance.dll"
mi "ctrl_irradiance.mi"

link "ctrl_rays.dll"
mi "ctrl_rays.mi"

link "ctrl_buffers.dll"
mi "ctrl_buffers.mi"

link "ctrl_colors.dll"
mi "ctrl_colors.mi"

link "ctrl_fresnel.dll"
mi "ctrl_fresnel.mi"

link "ctrl_geolights.dll"
mi "ctrl_geolights.mi"

link "ctrl_multidisplace.dll"
mi "ctrl_multidisplace.mi"

link "ctrl_objectlights.dll"
mi "ctrl_objectlights.mi"

link "ctrl_shading.dll"
mi "ctrl_shading.mi"

link "ctrl_occlusion.dll"
mi "ctrl_occlusion.m

and here is the link: ctrl_shaders (http://www.3d-emotion.com/downloads/images/ctrl_shaders.rar)

I am not the creator, no service ... take them as they are

... share your experience :-)

maxplugins
11-15-2006, 08:33 AM
Don't bother putting the shaders in the 'mentalray\shaders_standard' folder, put them in the Shaders_autoload folder, then you don't need to edit the 'standard.mi'

I test all of the shaders here before I put them on MAX Plugins.de, and if they don't work 100% then I don't add them to the database. I did a lot of testing with ctrl_buffers, and the tone-mapping was working very nicely. I had problems with the buffer output, and generally had to jump through a load of hoops to get it to work.

The only one that I never had any problems with is ctrl_rays. I would really like to get ctrl_occlusion working, but haven't had enough time to spend on it.

Dave

tryhard
11-15-2006, 09:28 AM
... thanks for the hint. Tried it and it worked perfectly.

By the way: Great site your "Maxplugins.de" :-)

But whats even more interesting is your statement that you tested ctrl_buffer and especialy tonemapping.

Any chance to see a demo scene with some explanation about the settings ...

... and so we get back to

VRay-like interior renders with mental ray???

Spacelord
11-15-2006, 09:35 AM
Don't bother putting the shaders in the 'mentalray\shaders_standard' folder, put them in the Shaders_autoload folder, then you don't need to edit the 'standard.mi'

I test all of the shaders here before I put them on MAX Plugins.de, and if they don't work 100% then I don't add them to the database. I did a lot of testing with ctrl_buffers, and the tone-mapping was working very nicely. I had problems with the buffer output, and generally had to jump through a load of hoops to get it to work.

The only one that I never had any problems with is ctrl_rays. I would really like to get ctrl_occlusion working, but haven't had enough time to spend on it.

Dave

Which problems did you have with the buffer output ?
Did you manage to get object with alpha passes out (RGBA) ?

Try Hard: I have no idea how to set them up in 3dsmax.
3dsmaxs material editor makes it really hard to connect shaders.

cheers

Abraham
11-15-2006, 07:59 PM
Nice tutorial on topic :)
http://67.15.36.49/team/Tutorials_2/illumination/illumination_01.asp

J-L

tryhard
11-16-2006, 07:26 AM
... look there:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=104578&page=239&pp=15

Jeff Patton shows the geolight shader

MasterZap
11-16-2006, 08:02 AM
An important note on the Logarithmic Exposure Control.

In Max8 or earlier, it was really bad, and created oversaturated colors all the time.

The Max9 version is changed and behaves much more correct.

So while the rule for Max8-or-older was "Never touch the Logarithmic exposure control", the rule for Max9 is "Always use the logarithmic exposure control".

Note, though; I/we are well aware this exposure controle is not "the best tonemapper out there", there are many, and I encourage playing with Francescas toys for now. But it does the job pretty well and is NOT the disaster it was in previous max's.

Just FYI

/Z

tryhard
11-16-2006, 08:27 AM
... he masterzap you are welcome.

thanks for that important info :-)

any advice how to use francesca lucas tools in max ???

it´s hard to figure out the connections and the parameters ...

a small test scene would be really helpfull

maxplugins
11-16-2006, 10:54 AM
I'm working out of the office for the next couple or weeks, but if I get a chance one evening, I'll post the sample scene I was using for the tonemapping tests.

Dave

JeffPatton
11-16-2006, 02:02 PM
In Max9 you can get some nice lighting results with a really simple setup. In this example I used a single photometric area light outside the window and enabled FG with the log. exposure control.
Image:
http://jeffpatton.net/Temp/Lighting.jpg

MikeBracken
11-17-2006, 06:40 AM
Jeffs aproach is spot on. The light set up in mental ray 3.5 is ultra simple. As for Vray like renders, the idea is pretty much the same. Area light outside the windows like the vray plane
lights. Log exp like color mapping/LWF in Vray. And photometric lights work great in mental ray.
I use vray everyday at work. It is a wonderful renderer. But so is mental ray. I have really been impressed with this version.

The multi bounce FG results are so close to IR in vray. Alot of the features we love in Vray have similar functions provided in mental ray. Such as :

Vray...2 sided material for lampshades and such. MR...Glow lume.
Nth frame light calculating and saving.
Beautiful glossy reflectins/refractions.
Physical sun/sky.

IMHO, this version of MR can certainly give vray a run for its money. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying one is better than the other. It is just nice to have another great renderer for
Archviz in the pipeline.

MikeBracken
11-17-2006, 07:01 AM
Here is an examlpe. Like jeffs render, this scene only contains one area light outside the front windows. This rendered in 15 minutes on a 3800 X2. Medium FG preset and Log exp.

Regards,
Mike



http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/Breakfast.jpg

MasterZap
11-17-2006, 12:03 PM
Thats one seriously beautiful render.

My only "tip" is to try the "round corners" effect on the wood, may add those little magical "glints" on the edges of the wood.

/Z

tryhard
11-17-2006, 12:05 PM
... hmmmmmmmmm

when i saw your pictures Jeff/MmikeE i started singing " ... the times they are changing".

The Quality and the Rendertimes are great. Absolutely comparable to interior lightning with ...

Jeff the quailty of the edges and the overall lightning, realistic and stunning. I have to try that approach with that scene.

Now, if we could get that ctrl_buffer beast under control ... uhhhhhhhhh

PeterGHill
11-18-2006, 02:23 PM
Seeing as this is a thread for V ray interiors I thought I would post a WIP image for some bashing.

http://www.productionconsultants.co.uk/downloads/Max/Room%20FG%20Final.jpg

Currently Max 9 A & D materials, one photometric, mr sun & sky, FG no photons.

Sorry for the blandness but am flying out to saudi next week and me kits already gone so am working on a laptop till I get out there. Aaarrgh!

Love max 9 but hated the transition from Brazil to MR, though somethings are much easier in brazil, something to do with the air in the southern hemisphere or something.

What da ya think so far?

Peter.

jespizua
11-19-2006, 10:40 AM
I´m really impressed with the new mental ray, the light quality has been improved a lot.


Cheers

jespizua

mathmaxer
11-24-2006, 08:38 AM
this is my test

http://arbs2day.com/images/up/uploads/02fd5c5921.jpg


http://arbs2day.com/images/up/uploads/4aa075ef80.jpg

loran
11-24-2006, 09:38 AM
AMAZING render mathmaxer !
could you please post your render settings and the way you light the scene.
Wich tonemapping do you use?

BlackFire86
11-26-2006, 12:37 PM
looks like log exp play an important part in max9 mr render..
anyone know why mr doesn't support linear exp??

TAVO
11-26-2006, 07:39 PM
mathmaxer:

the render time was 63hrs 43min. 06sec. ? that is way to much time man.

mer
11-27-2006, 01:27 AM
Yes way too slow.although a very beautiful image ..even Maxwell would be faster!

Myliobatidae
11-27-2006, 02:35 AM
Well if infact his computer is a 1.8 GHZ P4 netburst series, then my core duo laptop would render it in about 1/4 the time or about 17 hrs. which is abit more reasonable, and someones quad xeon workstation would do it in alot less...

BlackFire86
11-27-2006, 03:35 AM
Myliobatidae,
can i know the speed of ur core duo processor?
i am planning to buy a laptop but i still don't know how notebook is suitable for rendering or modelling

Myliobatidae
11-27-2006, 04:49 AM
its the Intel Core Duo T2300 / 1.66 GHz processor, and it was the slowest one they had...

it was before they came out with the core2 duo's, which are faster and 64bit...

EnlightenedPixel
11-27-2006, 04:17 PM
I think its kind of rash to just start spouting how Maxwell would render it faster without looking at how everything was set up.

MikeBracken
11-27-2006, 04:56 PM
The render does look nice, but should not have taken anywhere near that much time to render.
There must be some settings that are way off. Post your settings for lighting, materials, and
image sampling. Something is just not right.

Regards,
Mike

tryhard
11-28-2006, 05:51 AM
... much too long rendertimes. please post your settings. should be possible to reduce the rendertime dramaticly

:-) not neccesarry to set highest values for everything ...

EnlightenedPixel
12-04-2006, 09:14 PM
Its kind of sad that there doesnt seem to be more people with interest in advancing this thread like the Maya counterpart.

MikeBracken
12-04-2006, 11:55 PM
I agree. This could help alot of people that dont have access to Vray.

chocot
12-05-2006, 06:44 AM
Mathmaxer


SPLENDID , This is SPLENDID!
Never saw something like this..

But maybe, i'm getting happy for nothing, this is maybe a max 9 test.... or not...?
the colors balance is Soooo pleasant to me !
if so , well ...., if so....i haven't max9 at all, so ...

the time rendering are not, but you could resolve this quickly i think
, do you knwo what is your rendering time with No object in the room and a low quality, let's say 400 *300 and sampling -1/ 4 --> 4 ..? this could be interesting to know what part of rendering is the problem...

in fact , i don't really understand how someone who is able to achieve such image cannot succed in settings the render above 10 ( let's say 15 ) hours ...:) think a lot obout this, this is confusing me..

ghost scan disk ? you displaced the ground and not bumped it ? :scream: you send 99 billions photons ? Oh, allright, this is your laptop !!! i hope for you you have a serious computer too to work with,... héhé ..

Won't ask you to send the file but i would reaally appreciate if you could explains some steps as...how long does it takes to set a dual light (i guess) perfect setting like ?
what about photons settings ?

To PEOPLE : learning goes quicker when you do not fall asleep quickly ! use good computer(s ) (not expensive, just good ). ...


thanks guys !

petere
12-05-2006, 07:23 AM
I honestly don't get the point of the thread.

I can't seem to find any "hollywood-feature-film-quality-and-scalability-with-vray"-thread.


-P

MikeBracken
12-08-2006, 03:30 PM
Vray is primarily used for archviz. Until mental ray 3.5, it has been very hard for most people doing archviz to use mental ray. I use vray everyday at work. Most archviz people will tell you that vray has that "vray look" not typically found with other renderers when doing archviz.
So the point of this thread is to share tips on how the new mental ray can produce the
"vray look" when doing archviz.

Regards,
Mike

MikeBracken
12-12-2006, 05:30 PM
I am going to donate a scene that I have created to test some of the features of Mental Ray
3.5. All materials will be Arch&Design, All textures created by me, and both photometric and
Mentalray area light setups. If anyone is interested, let me know. I think that this thread
will get alot more action if we have a common scene file to test with. Of course, any changes
in the scene are fine by me.

Regards,
Mike

Brian-Bradley
12-12-2006, 11:42 PM
Mike,

Sounds like a cool idea. Only problem with an idea like
this is generating the interest and then keeping the
thread going long enough for the experiments that
everyone does to yield really great benefits for everyone
involved. We would be up for trying though!

Regards
Bri

chocot
12-12-2006, 11:56 PM
great idea, of course.

something that happends sometimes is that there's no way to feel how much help a topic is giving to people,so, you should post your scene in a thread , in a BIg sized post with many clear notes of what you want from people to ask , tell, or share with you/max9 users.

something good too could be to ask people around what specific scene/room geometry could be best to learn from....before posting your scene, maybe it could regroup more people around.

another way to establish a clear thread could be to ask/repeat people not to ask something before having done a good search and look on cg

'sniff',............, 3dsmax 9...;;;;; .no more max 8-tut's to come....anyway, thanks for help, maybe i'll need it in somedays..

The Chok

tryhard
12-13-2006, 07:24 AM
... that´s a fantastic idea. a common test scene will be a good start. if you also put in the textures perfect. Thanks in advance.

my idea is to take your scene and start with a daylight setup. No textures just pure light grey to tweak the lghts and to discuss different approaches for each situation (mrSunSky, Photometric Arealights, mr Area Spot, ... )
- just daylight
- daylight mixed with interior lights
- extreme/experimental light situations (flashlight, lightobjects, ...)

in step 2 i would use the mixed daylight and the real materials and tweak the lights
in step 3 we could try to optimize the materials (walls, floor, windows ...)
- reflection/refraction
- round corners
- ambient occlusion
- ...

i will take care of that Agenda if you want me too in form of a downloadable PDF file and as text on page one of that thread ... therefore i would need some help because i am no native speaker ...

btw. we will have to define the information that everybody should give about his approach
- rendersettings
- light settings
- ...

what do you guys think about that approach. Anyway these are just my 5 cents :eek:

petere
12-13-2006, 08:16 AM
Also make sure to model in mm since a majority of the world use mm as the standard tool for mesurement.

-P

chocot
12-13-2006, 10:30 AM
In the next days, i'll try to search for best rooms setup, in my jpg collection 'work 3d' and maybe some scans of book too..ideal configuration could be maybe a room where they are two types of opening ( sizes in fact ) and two depth of rooms fo two camera angle test ; near big light sources (windows..../....), and far from light sources .

you told thing well in last post, maybe OTHERS PEOPLES CAN GIVE THEIR IMPRESSIONS of how important things should be established before setting all of this.

:bounce:

JeffPatton
12-13-2006, 02:34 PM
Why not use some of the scenes that are posted here already? Or even some of the demo scenes that ship with Max? Both the Howard B. room, classroom scene, and the two Evermotion rooms that ship with Max9 are pretty good examples to work with.

Infact, I've been using the Evermotion bathroom scene that comes with Max to test some setups, materials, etc. and it's a decent scene to test with:
http://jeffpatton.net/Temp/Evm-01.jpg

Mike, I'm in no way trying to discourage you from contributing a new test scene, Just thought I'd mention those incase it will save you some time. :)

MikeBracken
12-13-2006, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the responses. Lots of good ideas here. Having used vray for a couple of years now,
the workflow in mentalray 3.5 is very similar. And the chaos forum in simply amazing. I would love to see something similar with mentalray.

Jeff, Great idea ! I had not even thought about the scenes that ship with max. The evermotion
scenes are almost perfect. Nice render, BTW.

I am in the middle of a tight deadline (arent we all:) ). After friday Ill regroup and post some
more ideas. Please post any input you guys think will be usefull.

Regards,
Mike

Brian-Bradley
12-13-2006, 06:13 PM
Jeff, Great idea ! I had not even thought about the scenes that ship with max. The evermotion scenes are almost perfect. Nice render, BTW.
Regards,
Mike

Sounds good to me. But I really should check my software DVD's because
I had no idea that those scenes had shipped with Max either. :banghead:

Regards
Bri

MikeBracken
12-13-2006, 06:49 PM
They are there. I just had not thought about them.:thumbsup:

cgfun
01-19-2007, 07:39 AM
Have anyone get "Ctrl.occlusion" shader working and rendering in Max8 or Max9?

How??

I render pitchblack by assigning the shader to the surface slot of the mental ray shader.

Am i doing wrong? Or this shader is only working for XSI/ MAYA?

StratusFarm
01-21-2007, 08:03 AM
What a great thread.
I would like to play too :)

However, I am using Max 8, and probably will not be upgrading to 9.

Here is one of my recent Arch Viz works:
http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/202294/202294_1168393277_large.jpg

There is a mr Area Spot, and two mr Area Omnis.
It took about 45 min. to render 2400x1800 on an AMD 64x2 (dual core, not dual proc)

It may not have that "vray look" that people are so fond of refering to, but quite honestly, I am not terribly crazy about the "vray look." I mean it looks fantastic, don't get me wrong, but very often I hear people refer to it as if it is the ultimate or preeminent thing to achieve.
It seems to me that because of its incredible ease of use, people get pigeon-holed into that style.
Just a thought. Don't take it too seriously.

Anyway, since I can't open Max 9 files, and since I don't have the cool Howard B. Room, I guess I need to try and recreate it :)
...but not today.

StratusFarm
01-21-2007, 08:54 AM
Lemme mention this:
Amongst the sample files on Max 8's DVD there is a mental ray folder that has a scene called something like "mr_GalleryLighting" or something like that.
It is an EXCELLENT scene for learning how mr ought to be set up for interiors.
It contains a bunch of lights, with only one turned on initially.
Turning only one light on at a time and rendering, you can see various methods of lighting that scene, each in a different way. Just by studying those settings, someone who is just learning mr can really pick up a lot.

By any chance did that scene make it on to Max 9's disc?

chocot
01-21-2007, 08:57 PM
hi !!

first i think you should increase both final gather rays (at least 25%) and filters (or filter type)..
This room is quite well achieved but general feeling is that all is 'flashy'/
Maybe an ambiant occlusion pass+ incrust in photoshop would gain you realism for this room?
(everything's in max for this)
where are those two omnis you put there?
it seems they come from nowhere.
Yes, from nowhere in fact after seing the picture.
why don't you try moving them to the windows as a sky light ; your sun light is already done so ...
Maybe it was not easy because of your outdoor+indoor scene, not easy to achieve ..?

except this i found your materials not so bad, at all but im sure they'll loke great if you try to get more "single emotion" in that room ;/NOT TELLING YOU TO DO VRAY STYLE, but....sort of :) (bounced light..darker areas/side of objects).
Please tell if you can achieve to :
1 understand me:)
2 change light position (important)
3 post your next step/ Thanks
TheChok

StratusFarm
01-21-2007, 10:07 PM
first i think you should increase both final gather rays (at least 25%) and filters (or filter type)..
I agree, the FG samples could certainly help it along a bit. In this render they were set at 300.

where are those two omnis you put there?
it seems they come from nowhere.
Yes, from nowhere in fact after seing the picture.
why don't you try moving them to the windows as a sky light ; your sun light is already done so ...
Maybe it was not easy because of your outdoor+indoor scene, not easy to achieve ..?

Actually there are 3 omins in the scene.
Two of them are indeed already at the windows.
The third is set quite low and without adding to GI as it is only there to serve as an additional "Fill" for just a couple of objects, excluding everything else. This is why there is an odd shadow fron the small table and items against the wall between the windows.
This light should not have been casting shadows, but that slipped by me with the deadline I was under.
Maybe that is what is throwing off the sense of where the light is coming from?


I do undertand what you are saying, and certainly agree with the FG or Occlusion pass compostied in PShop being something that would help to boost this image.


Regardless, there won't be a "next step that I will be doing to this one.
It wan't so much posted as a WIP, in fact it is a project that I just finished up for a client.
(They put me under a very tight deadline, and I had to knock this out in 2 days, otherwise, I would have pushed it a bit more.)

Although I am not gonna muck around with this image anymore, I think your critique, and my subsequent explaination, could serve as an illustration for things to look out for when rendering interiors, rather than simply posting a complete bad-ass image.
You know what I mean?

MikeBracken
02-14-2007, 03:46 PM
Hi. We are finally putting Mental Ray into our pipeline on a permanent level. I have really
become comfortable with this latest version. Here are a couple renders we did recently.

Regards,
Mike

http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Bed_large02.jpg


http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Kitchen001.jpg


http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Table_close04.jpg


I think the "Vray look" is quite close. I still use both renderers regularly. But I am really
loving 3.5.

Oh, BTW, here is an exterior using the daylight system.

http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Victorian003.jpg

MasterZap
02-17-2007, 07:08 AM
MikeE - that's some seriously nice looking renderings. It warms my heart to see my little shaders to so much nice stuff.... *sob* :cry:

/Z

Tora_2097
02-28-2007, 11:50 AM
@mmikeE: Very nice results. I especially like the kitchen, it looks quite convincing.
Good job.

chaka
03-05-2007, 08:31 PM
nice renders :thumbsup:

StratusFarm
03-08-2007, 04:55 PM
MmikeE:
those look quite nice, in particular the kitchen.
My only critique I would have in the kitchen (if I may be so bold) is just the way the black tiles are mapped.
Where the decorative band crosses the black tiles, it would seem that in the real-world, those black tiles ought to come right up against the top and bottom edge.
Overall - beautiful.

Meanwhile, I've had to give in and pick up Max9 :applause:
I was gonna hold out for financial reasons, but I started doing sub-contract work with a firm that is using Max 9, so I had to upgrade now (with subscription this time) Which makes me able to afford it now.

Wow, the A&D materials are nice, man. Unfortunately, I need to finish up this project before I can play with it (current project is already shadered(is that a real word?) without mrADmats)

MikeBracken
03-09-2007, 02:25 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

We are liking the new Mental Ray so much, that we are using it on most projects now. Yep,
the arch & design mats are wonderful. I am more and more impressed with this version.
My personal opinion, when comparing it to Vray, is that the over all light dist is a little better
in Vray, but the materials in mental ray are superior. And I dont need really high samples to
get clean results on things like walls, floors, etc. The main reason we are not using Vray for
most of our animations is the "qmc noise" on everything. With mental ray this problem has
dissapeared. Of course, I do love both renderers. Vray has some options that I am really
missing.

Regards,
Mike

StratusFarm
03-09-2007, 03:41 AM
Yeah, when I first read what was new in 9 I thought it wouldn't be worth it right now, but for especially Arch work...wowo.
Unfortunately I am going to have to wait another 4 days to render off an animation before I can really dig into these materials. (next up in the plan is get another box dedicated to rendering)

MmikeE - when you say "we", is this you and a partner or two doing ArchVIz, or are you part of a bigger company?

tryhard
03-09-2007, 07:19 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

We are liking the new Mental Ray so much, that we are using it on most projects now. Yep,
the arch & design mats are wonderful. I am more and more impressed with this version.
My personal opinion, when comparing it to Vray, is that the over all light dist is a little better
in Vray, but the materials in mental ray are superior. And I dont need really high samples to
get clean results on things like walls, floors, etc. The main reason we are not using Vray for
most of our animations is the "qmc noise" on everything. With mental ray this problem has
dissapeared. Of course, I do love both renderers. Vray has some options that I am really
missing.

Regards,
Mike


... when the ctrl_buffer or something similar works in MR to get the renderpasses in one way ... ohhhhhhhhh

Materials in MR are SUPERIOR and lightning fast, like glass, metal, ...

... yes noise in Vray animation ...

... yes it´s a nice piece of software :thumbsup:

MikeBracken
03-09-2007, 03:49 PM
MmikeE - when you say "we", is this you and a partner or two doing ArchVIz, or are you part of a bigger company?

Well I have my own company. But I also work for Animagic Productions
here in St louis. Of course I do some freelance stuff to. I get alot of offers for smaller projects
that dont have much of a budget, and I take some and leave some. At animagic we do 95%
animation work. At Renderhousestudio we do almost all high res stills. Basicaly, I have a no
compete clause with Animagic. As for freelance....I do anything that looks interesting.

Regards,
Mike

khimmy
03-15-2007, 09:37 AM
Hi. We are finally putting Mental Ray into our pipeline on a permanent level. I have really
become comfortable with this latest version. Here are a couple renders we did recently.

Regards,
Mike

http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Bed_large02.jpg


http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Kitchen001.jpg


http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Table_close04.jpg


I think the "Vray look" is quite close. I still use both renderers regularly. But I am really
loving 3.5.

Oh, BTW, here is an exterior using the daylight system.

http://www.renderhousestudio.com/Main_Page/New_images/Victorian003.jpg wow cool render, i wish can do the same.. im currently using vray rc3 with max9 and still learning. i know this forum are meant for professionals like you guys... how i wish to be one of you, hehehe

cheers all!

Nikolab
03-18-2007, 03:40 AM
This is my vision of these themes (MR=VR). I use MR 3.5, A&D mat. and photometric lights... This is my first post... be gentle in your critic :)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6213/03cgrg4.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03cgrg4.jpg)http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4182/07cgtb5.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=07cgtb5.jpg)http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2707/010cgac9.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=010cgac9.jpg)






(http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=010cgle7.jpg)

MikeBracken
03-18-2007, 03:41 PM
Those look very nice. What kind of photometric lights did you use? IES web files ?


Regards,
Mike

Nikolab
03-18-2007, 06:55 PM
Thanks Mike...:)

In the first picture I use daylight sistem for the outside lights, I must mention that am not using exposure control, becouse of many lights on scene (with Exp.Con. I dont have full control on the lights). Inside, for hiden lights I use linear cool white without shadows ...

In the second picture I use free area behind the window (daylight fluorescent with quite small yellow-red color in filter color). Inside, only standard spots with small yellow color and far attenuation for quicker render... Jes, almost forget... One linear (white) without shadows to simulate neon light in the mid of the room...

In the third picture I use only inside light. Every spots are MR lights and four linear (white) lights to simulate neon light (two on sides with no shadows and two (upside and downside) with raytrace shadows).

On all pictures I play with GI multiplayer on lights (especially with linear lights, I use them to iluminate all spaces)... And sorry for my bad english:( I'll hope that you understand...:)
Cheers...:)

chocot
03-18-2007, 07:43 PM
MmikeE,

I want to tell you i found youre pictures really nice.
I saw them , and , i asked myself if i still was on Mr topic....to tell you how different your pictures are. !! :eek: :thumbsup: Whaoo great !!
i still use Mr 3.4 ,but even with those differences 3.4/3.5, im sure you have a strong pipeline or at least correct method to ensure your scene will succed, in a realistic mode and nice too..

could you just try to explain what is your method when testing scene with white /grey materials. What are you waiting for whith this technique ..?
i stop grey/white testing when :
-photons cover all
- fg do his work well
- white/grey send and receive correct color
- scale of color ( strong black, nice white) are ok
-log and gamma depend...no tecnique for this
- render time for 400 *300 whith good quality Sample is above 2.5 /3 min

What would you add in those steps or, simply, do you ADD something to those steps ...?


by the way after writting 2advice for nikolab, i added this to you !
You are not anymore in a good topic, you didn't succed in getting vray like render, but simply just in getting an EXCELLENT render with Mray :thumbsup: :scream: YEahhhhhhhhhh
, that make me think again that i just need to pass on 3.5 and stop thinking with vray
.
If i was a client i would prefer getting your pictures that vray ones as theyre still strange emotion with your render (dont tell him this ) ; computer style, touch, bump , color scale and histogramm details , i dont know ...; but this make me think to realism (tell him THIs ) , not when i see vray ; Again Bravo , congratulations !!

Thanks if you can LIGHT up things for me too....:)

nikolab :


I like your pictures too..
i first wanted to make critics (positives) to you BUT, after all , your image DOES look like Vray render to me beside the fact that it is not perfect, you did it, i think.

I have nothing special to tell you , you could add this or that..;but the scene are nearly ok.
Just 2 techinques things :
- Increase the sample to 4 & 16 if you can.. do you use 1/4 & 16 or what ..?
yeah cause thats incredible, for sure, you succed in getting right colors but forgot to do a good sampling ...i cant understand this ... :eek: :rolleyes: :shrug:

- use ambiant occlusion.
it will make the room less ...hum Hummm, cold . Just trying and give me a superlative after this... !!

Bye

Nikolab
03-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks for critic chocot
But I use 4/16 Mitchell sampling quality and I use AO in A&D mat. for MR 3.5...
Maybe I overdone with optimize in PS (save for web), maybe becouse small pictures...:shrug:
And I agree with all that you said about MmikeE work...

Truly Mike (now I see) you touch reality...:)

chocot
03-18-2007, 08:58 PM
filter for picture 1 seems to be ok ..
picture 2 --> (lack of vocabulary too...grrr)the edge of the 6 glass near your desk ,
Look at the edges of your fridge picture 3, THESE are not errors from webs sav file mode with photoshop or other...:shrug: really , so if you do 4/16 mitchell (good values usually) i would not advice you to do a 4/64 test, but change the size of mitchell filter and MOREVER try a triangle filter or the 5 th one(mitchell is the 4 th no ? I dont remember te name of the 5th..).

Nikolab
03-18-2007, 09:23 PM
I see... ok... thanks very much, I'll try correct that in to my next render...:thumbsup:

sireel
03-28-2007, 06:48 PM
Have a question on this subject.
I have been able to produce pretty decent results with MR but had a question for Mike but hope that anyone would be able to answer

I am able to achive very nice results using FG only but no matter how high I set the settings I end up with splotches and uneven lighing. Would you guys happen to know what I am talking about and where I could begin looking to resolve this issue? I am currently rendering out an image at 1024*768 using FG only at the "very high" setting and its going on a few days now. I read in the Mikes posts that he was able to get the evenly lit results using just medium quality FG.
I've tried MR Spot with area lights, MR Sport with Skylight and the Daylight system. With each setup I've tried FG only, Photons only and a combination of the two. Can anyone give me a clue as to how to render out the nice results that Mike got without spending days on the render?

chocot
03-28-2007, 06:50 PM
can you send a render ..?

sireel
03-29-2007, 02:34 AM
This is a shot with FG only on high setting with 2 bounces.

chocot
03-29-2007, 01:06 PM
yeah that's a good scene !
So first im thinking of F.G radius Min/Max Size...
Are u using it ?
i would use a min size of 0.15 meter and max of about 1,1 meter, and a F.G number of about 70 so medium quality maybe in the new max 9 settings.
if , like in that case you use only fg, try to make more bounce ( 9 -9 -9 and -8 for bounces)
and also please test your scene wirth standard grey or mentalray +dgs mat in grey (200/255)
its better first cause special mat will make mentalray send and receive not the correct numbers of rays photons (not a serious problme at all).. calculation is more .light like this...it goes even faster.


To mMikeE :

seeing again your NICE pictures that make me crazy, i would like to tell you i find many quality diff between inside/outside..

i'll advice you to definitevely add a layer of AO for outside so that quality between Inside /outside would be equal..hope you'll add it to your workflow then and appreciate.

Chok, FR

MikeBracken
03-30-2007, 05:07 PM
I've tried MR Spot with area lights, MR Sport with Skylight and the Daylight system. With each setup I've tried FG only, Photons only and a combination of the two. Can anyone give me a clue as to how to render out the nice results that Mike got without spending days on the render?

What I do to avoid this problem is I usually place a mental ray omni light outside of each window. I set these lights up to mimic the over all look/brightness/color of the mr sky.
Although, If there is enough light coming from indoor light sources this is not usually needed.
I get very clean results using this method.


Also, I agree with the AO pass for indoor or outdoor scenes. In the image that I posted
I just didnt have time to really do that. But it really makes the renders "pop"

Regards,
Mike

chocot
03-30-2007, 05:10 PM
ok, BUt i was just talking of AO for the exterior render CAuse the indoors one are aLready perfect and lovely

Nikolab
03-31-2007, 08:06 PM
This is only for you...
....better? What you think?
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4214/023ri1.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=023ri1.jpg)http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4387/025oz7.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=025oz7.jpg)

MikeBracken
04-01-2007, 12:22 AM
Nikolab....Those images look FANTASTIC ! Very nice work.

chocot
04-01-2007, 03:01 AM
ok, no problem this time!:wise:


Nooo, just joking, Those are perfect !! :scream: Terrific,

i find it hard to see mental ray touch ;
(may i have to say thanks ? )

contrast and finall look are GREAT !
nothing to compare with last time ,...!

do clients have something to critic when they receive this type of perfect job ( if you have enough time to spend on it) ?

Nikolab
04-02-2007, 12:15 AM
MmikeE & chocot
Thanks very much!!!:) Those words are great stimulant for me...:)

chocot
About my clients....I work as architect (who love CG) and mostly do for my own job, in the most cases they are satisfied with my work and pictures:)...
With those work and pictures they are wery satisfied:thumbsup:(in the first time they not belived thet are CG)

MmikeE & chocot
Do that pictures deserve to put them in to my CG porfolio?

Once again sorry for my bad english...
Cheers...

K G B
04-02-2007, 05:33 AM
These are great man, you should definately use them in your portfolio.

Samo tako care, slike su ti odlicne. Ja sam kao i ti, arhitekta a volim 3D. Samo kada bi mogli i klijente da ubjedimo svaki put da je 3D vrlo koristan. Slike definitivno stavi u porfolio.
Milos

Nikolab
04-02-2007, 01:37 PM
Thanks K G B:), definitely I put them in my portfolio (right now)...

Hvala ti drugar, poslusacu te:thumbsup:... Drago mi je da ti se svidja to sto radim. Klijente i ne pitam za 3D, cena projekta zajedno sa 3D je tolko i tolko, pa ko oce nek izvoli... ovde se navukli na vizualizaciju tako da je sve vise radim pored projektovanja...
POZ.:)

chocot
04-02-2007, 02:07 PM
Lsliskeklisk lvieklitlk il lkfhfirj BLALBLABLBALBLALBLABLBALALBLALBLALBALBAlba


LOL (Sorry :))

Nikolab
04-02-2007, 02:34 PM
Ok, Ok sory:sad: ... I will not use my language any more on forums... sory once again:shrug:

loran
04-02-2007, 03:13 PM
nan t'inquiète, vas-y parle comme tu veux :)
y'a pas que ce putain d'anglais de bordel de vérole de mes couilles dans la vie :))

chocot
04-03-2007, 03:26 AM
yo loran t'a raison nom d'un périphérique de presque ïle

Au bout de deux heures sur le forum , le cerveau prend une claque mais alors si ya du bidule et du zabulon, tu louches assuré :)

K G B
04-04-2007, 06:39 AM
Ok ok, point taken, just felt silly talking to my fellow contrymen in english.
Just a little question for people who both used MR and v-ray - has the speed of MR improoved much in Max 9? Compared to V-ray I mean?

MikeBracken
04-04-2007, 07:37 AM
Just a little question for people who both used MR and v-ray - has the speed of MR improoved much in Max 9? Compared to V-ray I mean? Yes. The speeds are comparable. We do almost all animations, and the speed is pretty much
the same per frame.

chocot
04-04-2007, 03:48 PM
to me , Vray is not as quick as mental ray
average computations with mental ray seemed to always be shorter than with Vray.

Vray take less time in setting up things
But Mental ray take less time in rendering.

chocot
04-04-2007, 04:05 PM
hey mmmike E
is saw your website, again, GREat pictures !!
so cool !
by the way did you learn many things from the kitchen contest.? This room you made look like exactly as your pro images .
Is there Vray on your website or only Mr ? (
-->your whole website image is looping horyzontally on the right side of my screen ( on about 130 pixels large), i use a 16/10 screen in 1680*1050

to be continued

MikeBracken
04-04-2007, 05:47 PM
Actually, Most are done in Vray. I havent updated my site in a long time. I think there are only
a couple of Mental Ray images there. I have been using vray for a few years now, but I am
prefering Mental Ray more all the time. Of course, this is just my personal preference, and not
any judgement of either renderers.

StratusFarm
04-06-2007, 03:41 AM
OK, now that I am between projects, I got a little time to play around with some of the new stuff in 9.
I was really curious about using photometric lights with mental ray as earlier in this post, so a put togeher a scene today and holy cow...I thought I was never gonna mess about with Photometric lights again, but after after playing about for a short amount of time, I can see this going somewhere.

I am still experimenting with different set-ups and settings, but here is a pic so far, along with the settings and placements:
PLEASE just consider the lighting in this scene...everything was just thrown together just to serve as a lighting test.
http://www.bei-media.com/postings/mrPhMtrLightTest2.jpg


Photometric lights, Final Gather, and LogExposure.
Oh, and the sunlight on the floor is coming from a mrAreaSpot, but is not contributing to FG...its just there to hit the floor.

I am gonna keep playing with this, but if anyone has any thoughts on certain things or settings to try, I'll play with that too :thumbsup:

And here are the current settings and top view.

MikeBracken
04-06-2007, 09:46 PM
Lighting looks real nice. I like being able to use photometric lights again. I know they are correct, so I can simply adjust the exposure, as I would with a real camera.
Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Mike

StratusFarm
04-08-2007, 03:29 PM
I know they are correct, so I can simply adjust the exposure, as I would with a real camera.

Indeed. It is very nice to have this back in the pipeline for interiors, especially with the presets for certain wattage bulbs, using IES data, etc.

The aspect I am playing with now is getting the best way to represent daylight coming in.
That is, Photometric Area lights in the windows vs. daylight system.
I am enjoying the look of just using Photometric area lights, but there is a question of what settings are "correct." So far, just trial-and-error seems to have gotten that approach to look pretty good.
When I get home (away for Easter this weekend) I am going to play about more with the daylight systems.
It would be nice to have a standard setup for interiors with little to no adjusting/tweaking, regardless of how many windows/doors let light in.
At least with using the area lights at the openings, it is similar to the set up I have used before with mrArea Lights, but I have never mucked about with Daylight Systems for use with interiors.

In the previous example, I adjusted the Area Light Parameters until the shadow's softness looked OK.
I suppose they ought to be set as the same size as the opening they are in, and lined up with the opening.
I dunno, maybe not...I'm gonna play some more.

Brian-Bradley
04-10-2007, 09:00 PM
Hey Everyone,

Thought that a thread on MR interiors would be a good
place to show a WIP of where our 'Interior Lighting'
training modules are heading. Lit with just a Daylight
system using MR Sun/Sky. Straight render from Max,
no post work. This module will look at textures and
light tweaking (poss touch on some post work).
C&Cs most definately welcome. :)

Regards
Bri

StratusFarm
04-11-2007, 02:22 PM
That is looking good.
I like the contrast a lot.
1. What glass material are you using?
2. Can you post your LogExposure settings?

disassembler
04-11-2007, 05:12 PM
After reading the Maya thread I was wondering what every's preference settings are.

http://www.dis-assembly.com/maxpreferences.gif

Also wondering if anyone is working with the mia_exposure_simple Lens shader for exposure control. What are the differences and benefits of Logarithmic vs. mia_exposure_simple methods.

MikeBracken
04-11-2007, 07:02 PM
I dont actually mess with those settings anymore. I just use a color correction plugin. I find
this to more predictable in my workflow.

Regards,
Mike

Edit... Of course I always use the log/exposure control.

Spacelord
04-12-2007, 10:41 AM
I dont actually mess with those settings anymore. I just use a color correction plugin. I find
this to more predictable in my workflow.

Regards,
Mike

Edit... Of course I always use the log/exposure control.

Hi Mike,
Are you using pixero's js_gamma ? or some other plugin ?

http://www.pixero.com/downloads_mr.html

cheers

MikeBracken
04-12-2007, 03:13 PM
I am using the AF Material correct plugin. It is alot like the Color Correct plugin that I use with Vray. And it is only 15.00 dollars per license, and works excellent with Mental Ray.

http://www.af-video.com/index.html?ahls_download

Regards,
Mike

alkhobarspecial
04-18-2007, 07:56 PM
wow. alot of great information in this thread. I recently was hired at an architecture company and I am the only strictly graphics person. One of the decisions I made early on was that we should be using the new mental ray because plain and simple it comes with MAX and it the new version is much more user friendly now.

The information on this thread is helping me out with quite a few things. as well as all the Documentation that ZAP worked so hard on to get released with it.

MIKE - One question i have is you mentioned that you are using mental ray for animations you are doing. I know that when creating animations in VRAY the process works by rendering an irradiance map for the whole animation and then using that file for the final gather step when rendering the final animation. Is there a similar step for rendering animations in Mental Ray? or do you just let it calculate the final gather for every frame?

thanks for any help, and i will try to contribute what i can to this thread :thumbsup:

MikeBracken
04-18-2007, 08:35 PM
MIKE - One question i have is you mentioned that you are using mental ray for animations you are doing. I know that when creating animations in VRAY the process works by rendering an irradiance map for the whole animation and then using that file for the final gather step when rendering the final animation. Is there a similar step for rendering animations in Mental Ray? or do you just let it calculate the final gather for every frame?

Hi.
Basically it is the same workflow as Vray, with a few minor differences. My workflow is as follows.

I calc and save Photon maps when using them. Then, if I am doing a simple pan, eg, the camera does not change position, but just pans, I use the wrap around lense shader and calculate the FG on only one frame.. Then I load the saved FG map (checking the "freeze" option), remove the lense shader, and render as many frames as I need.

If the camera is going to move, and not just pan, then I set the renderer to nth frames,
and render the FG map. While rendering the nth frames just for the FG calc, I turn the image
sampler to 1/64-1/64 and I do not save the images...only the FG map. After the map is saved, I load it, check freeze, and render away.

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions I would be happy to help if I can.

Regards,
Mike

MikeBracken
04-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Also...
You would be amazed at how small the resolution can be when rendering FG maps. I can calc
the FG at 720 and use it to render 4k images. Works like a champ. I know that some would say that this is not a proper way of doing things, but it has worked every time I have done it this way.

Regards,
Mike

Spacelord
04-19-2007, 04:58 AM
Hi.

I use the wrap around lense shader and calculate the FG on only one frame.. Then I load the saved FG map (checking the "freeze" option), remove the lense shader, and render as many frames as I need.


Mike

Hey Mike thats one I haven't tried, I like the idea of a wrap around lens shader
to calculate the FG. I will try that, Nice one :)

alkhobarspecial
04-19-2007, 05:36 PM
Mike that helped tremendously. Thanks. I'm not sure why i didnt think of that, its the same process used to use for Vray.

though i have never done that lens shader trick. that is very cool.

wow that is great idea about rendering the FG at lower res. have you done tests to see what the quality difference is? its not noticeable? as i get some images i will share them...im getting excited hehe

MikeBracken
04-19-2007, 07:21 PM
wow that is great idea about rendering the FG at lower res. have you done tests to see what the quality difference is? its not noticeable?


I have not noticed any quality degrading at all. In fact, I use this workflow evey time. Grant it,
I am only doing Archviz animations.
Glad it helped.

Regards,
Mike


edit... I just finished, yesterday a high def animation of a pretty detailed/heavy class room using the wraparound lense trick. I rendered the FG at 700 pixels and rendered the final animation at high def. Looks awesome.

chocot
04-20-2007, 01:25 AM
hum mike , in that case, which is clever therefore, i bet something :
If you render with this approch but desactivate the fg for rendering, would the render wouldn't be as nearly nice as with the fg turned on ?

i use to used this technique but it did work cause i didnt know important things about photon size so my renders quality/time/.../colors.. and even more...hazardous ways of getting images .
so, i was counting more on fg work than on photon sending, BUT this is a bad thinking. fg was event too long for good results.
if photon is well sending, it feel as if fg work gets more and more useless.

So i would notice two things about this technic:
-lets say your render is using a phton sending + fg at a fg level of ..lets say 100 and size of 720 pixel as you said, you save your fg map and re render at 2000 ( hum you said even 4000 ? :) )
isnt it shorter or better if you simply render with your photon settings at a resolution of 4000 with only 30 fg ( 30% of your initial value)
- i would be surprised to learn from you how you send photons !!
i used to send 100 phton , see the size of the initial radius of photons sending by mental ray , then put the same radius of photons as the one i see on my screen , then higher everything in the number of photon, anf finally work my stepfs for FG.
But now, im getting the habbit of sending photons of radius 0.03 m/0.08 which is 0.005 in generic unit i think (not sure) and send at least 200 000 photon/important light.. few photon bounces ... in fact this look like the vray method..little photons points on screen .; this give me real control of black zones and white zones:rolleyes: the better way i get from this 3 years MR

Am i stupid to have trying this only know ?
Am i alone to use this ?

I wanna know cause i never HEARD OF it...

yep cause great tutos usually use my old first method , seems to be ok, right , but then they have a result with particular histogramm , i find, strange white zone and few dark one..

i can Give more explaination of what i do with my photons if someone Wants..

StratusFarm
04-23-2007, 02:54 PM
Quick question:
Earlier in this thread, Jeff was using the "HowardB" room for some lighting tests.
Where on the Max DVD can that be found?
I searched about but cannot find it.

JeffPatton
04-23-2007, 03:14 PM
It doesn't ship with 3dsmax. I downloaded it from Bryan's website here:
http://bryan-howard.com/demoreel.html - but it appears his site is off-line now.

I ran a google search and found a few hits for it, like this one:
http://www.kraytracing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=697&sid=d0ae87cf07652d0fb4e6a372a101c357
Although I'm not sure what format this one is in.

alkhobarspecial
04-23-2007, 05:39 PM
Has anyone done an office type interior? I'm trying to do an area that both has even lighting from the fluorescent lights along the ceiling. and then its has large windows along the sides so I should be getting higher contrast in those areas.


I have tried the area light method outside the window that Mike and Jeff have mentioned. and it seemed to render very dark inside. I must be doing something wrong. I was thinking about trying the geolight shader for the indoor lights but I cant seem to find it in the list of shaders that pops up when I click the mr shader create button. the ones that pop up are for hair and instance shader. am I just not looking in the right place? I downloaded it and copied it into my plugins folder and the pluginmanager shows it loaded.

I have also rendered it fairly successfully using daylight system as well as a photometric light for each ceiling light. which ends up beings 73 lights and I have a feeling that might be excessive. with the photometric lights in there I put a self illumination map on the geometry of the lights to make them appear to be on.

Glacierise
04-23-2007, 09:49 PM
I don't even use lights on the lamps sometimes :) Make a material glow with the lume shader, then FG, then victory dance :D Maybe add a glare output shader for the kick of it ;) bitchy architects aren't too fond of it though :D

Voocha
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
im realy impressed by your images, e[tremely hi quality, could you be so kind to post how you setup mental ray with interior light (lamp), thanks

Nikolab
04-29-2007, 07:40 PM
Im glad that you liked...:)
Setup is very simple, here you are...
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3117/bathroomvn9.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bathroomvn9.jpg)
Ambient light in the midle of the room is a key for whole scene... number of photons ni GI depend on the size of the room and wall mat.

Cheers:)

Voocha
04-30-2007, 10:16 PM
wow, much thanks man

Ingsoc75
06-28-2007, 12:04 PM
I just stumbled onto this thread after doing a search on photometric lights and their use in MR 3.5 and I must congradulate the members for all the information they have shared on the past 3 pages.

The Mentalboutmax tutorials seem like they will be very helpful in my endevours.

Thanks to all!

BTW- Is there a link on here or on the web that contains an Arch+Design Material library? I love these materials and would love to see others that have been created by fellow users.

Glacierise
06-28-2007, 12:45 PM
http://jeffpatton.net/Blog-images/Arch-materials.zip

This is Jeff Patton's library, based on the old arch materials in max.

Ingsoc75
07-02-2007, 01:57 AM
Ah, sehr gut!

I also was impressed by the Guruware terrain program on Jeff's blog!

AnimG
07-18-2007, 10:02 AM
Hi Guys

I haven't really done ArchViz before so gave it a shot yesterday

http://www.geoffcoope.co.uk/images/mr_room_arch.jpg

This originally started from a tutorial on using VRay but after waiting 7 hours to see what the render was going to look like I abandoned t and converted everything over to mental ray.

Rendering takes 27mins, used AO on the floor, Daylight system, two free area lights (one behind camera and one in the corridor) Uses FG with 3 bounces and a tiny amount of photons.

one area I found difficult was making the background image have the right affect on the rendered image, I cooled the rendering slightly in PhotoShop as it was too warm but in hindsight I should have done that with the daylight red/blue tint instead before rendering.

Your comments / criticism appreciated.

Geoff

Glacierise
07-18-2007, 11:01 AM
Hi man, nice image :) When posting render times, post the original resolution and hardware ;) Still, I think this can be rendered quite faster, maybe in 5-7 min on a Core2Duo at a res of about 1024*768.

On the image itself - if you look at photographs in similar situations, you'll see that when the interior space is properly exposed, the exterior is overexposed, due to the different light intensities. Of course, you can violate this for artistic reasons, but it should be an informed decision ;) Otherwise, the space under the table seems a bit dark, so I'd experiment with the FG multplier. Also, experiment with the GI multiplier - I found that increasing it can lead to very pleasing effects sometimes ;)

I wouldn't be concerned with the color temp - fixing it in post is good enough.

So, rock on - mr rules :D

AnimG
07-18-2007, 04:56 PM
Hi

Thanks for the comments. When creating the room I based it on eye rather than a photo, hence no over exposed exterior. So your saying that this should be an informed decision when working on ArchViz shots? Interesting, will look out for reference as I've not noticed this before.

I agree about the space under the table, I did try and brighten that area without affecting the rest of the image (just diffuse) but found I couldn't have one without the other. I will try upping the multipliers and see the effect.

Then I'm going to try get a good looking fast render with just the Daylight.

All good fun this.

Thanks.
PS. PC is Dual Core 2.4, 2Gig ram. Original render size was 1024x768 with high FG

chocot
07-18-2007, 08:05 PM
hey anim G
good work
i use only max 8 so i get really impressed with those new Mr solutions on max 9
i like your solution you did for your room.
this is good
my result in in this case is not so fine..i'd like you to explain a bit of how you use Ao for the ground ?.in the same time as rendering? can you take a picture of your parameters for this mat ?plizzzz ?
what could i tell you?
- found a mistake on your openings, in reel, they always cast and receive shadows .
they are too much plastic here,or fluo,
- use area light for this, but i undersrtand this use will get your lightning solution less simple.
- found your table too big, size . maybe after having seen so much the Vray test on the room( which is softer, you can agree with this..) :)
-corners are not really precise beside the fact you told you use high FG settings and the picture is nice and soft. so ...i could think about Fg min /max radius ..if you render your room without table in fewer resolution and testing fg points with diagnostic, do your points are well organized on the corners of walls ? ( ex :corners of green and white wall, plus details on openings not softs.)

good one

Nikolab
07-18-2007, 09:09 PM
@AnimG The wrong size of furniture in the room corruptes very nice atmosphere in your picture... Background image must have bigger exposure... And I agree with chocot in his last note. But in the same time this is very good picture, keep with the good work! :thumbsup:

@chocot He probable use AO in Arch&Design mat in MRay 3.5. Maybe its time to live Max8 behind :)

alkhobarspecial
07-18-2007, 09:50 PM
that image looks good man. but i agree with all the above comments. i think the table is a little tall, or at least something about the furniture is throwing the scale off. about the overexposed background image, in arch viz that usually comes down to the client and your personal taste. u probably dont need the high setting, but if you wanted to smooth out the glossy reflections so they weren't as noisy you would need to up the samples on that material.

anyways here is an image i did of parking garage that is a connection between an opera house and a performing arts center

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/alkhobarspecial/Arch%20Work/DCPA_FINAL.jpg

chocot
07-19-2007, 12:16 AM
ok it's time,right
i moved to max 9 to see it, again
i always tought Ao in arch&design were architectural materials, which was a strange thing to me ( few param's)
lol
ok im on it , LET's SEE this vray room:)

chocot
07-19-2007, 06:03 AM
Hey that's cool!
those reflections on Max-Mr9 are really not the older ones onMax8.
this is cool
i did this test using mostly those new arch&design materials.
it's cool!
maybe not a clearly image but i didnt made many rendering on this test.
22 min on Dual/ D930 a 600*450 pixels size.
i send 30k photons on each windows with free area light
+ 50 k on the sun which is only an mr area spot.
for those area light i only used 16 for area sampling, didnt wanted to spend time on rendering.
then i used a FG with 60 as prim parameter with a 3 cm radius for mini and
30 for maxi, plus a density of 0,4. ( idont like those ' interpolate fg points ;) )
1/16 for sampling .
arch & design new materials
whoo them seem to be greaaat
work is getting easier with this version.

not a clearly image as animg did but i am maybe too far from first plan and my sampling is correct gauss(3-3) +1/16 sampling do not create as many thin corner as i wanted,but...

http://visuals-concepts.com/compte/image/04m.jpg

AnimG
07-19-2007, 08:48 AM
Here is the tut (and files) if anybody else wants to convert the VRay scene to mr http://www.evermotion.org/tutorials/mich/minterior01.htm

As to Ambient Oclusion, it is at the material level now within the Arch scene mat. You can also apply the mental ray Ambient Occlusion material to the "material overide" option in render options if you want a quick full image pass.

As to my render. Some great advice there, I will absorb it later. I did model the scene by eye (the table, chairs, radiator are from my room) but the scene should be to scale, I will check. I think it might just be camera perspective.

How do you manage perspective on small rooms? I can think of two possible methods....

Do you detach and exclude a wall from the camera and render outside->in or use camera clipping?

One thing I can't do is get a good render from this scene just using Daylight. Any of you pro's want to try that?

Cheers all
Anim

Brian-Bradley
07-19-2007, 09:08 AM
One thing I can't do is get a good render from this scene just using Daylight. Any of you pro's want to try that?

Almost just Daylight. :thumbsup:

www.mentalboutmax.co.uk/Html/How_To/HowTo_main.html (http://www.mentalboutmax.co.uk/Html/How_To/HowTo_main.html)

regards
Bri

chocot
07-19-2007, 09:24 AM
thanks for explaination
so you are using ambiant occlusion with those new ARch& design material ..
in the aditional color/self illumination or in the Ao Shadow color & Ao ambiant light color?

AD is definitively a material that was missing on max ..
about your table..the dimension are correct but not as thin as it should be..too 'heavy' to me.
i dont like using camera in max this is annoying in some pro-situations, and yeah your solutions seems to be good.any defaults from them you had directly ?

i post this last one .i wont add another about this room, it's not finish but it get me really surprised to achieve this type of result compared to MR before.:)
the point was to give to animg reference to compare the little imprecision he got on corners with another method , illumination + a 60 FG ( 4/16 + mitchell 4,4 , this time )- i wont tell rendertime , as i was working on the same computer for strong calculate work too..:shrug: 2big

http://visuals-concepts.com/compte/image/05m.jpg

AnimG
07-19-2007, 09:41 AM
Almost just Daylight. :thumbsup:
www.mentalboutmax.co.uk/Html/How_To/HowTo_main.html (http://www.mentalboutmax.co.uk/Html/How_To/HowTo_main.html)
regards
Bri

Pay Per View tutorials? :D Well :thumbsup: to you for being enterprising but i'm a strong beliver in helping for free on discussion forums such as this (as long as its not all take of course!).

I've almost got just daylight working now, the tip about boosing FG/GI multipliers really helps.

Edit:

so you are using ambiant occlusion with those new ARch& design material ..
in the aditional color/self illumination or in the Ao Shadow color & Ao ambiant light color?

In the Arch & Design material, look in the Special Effects rollout.

Anim

Brian-Bradley
07-19-2007, 10:57 AM
i'm a strong beliver in helping for free on discussion forums such as this (as long as its not all take of course!).


Agree 100%. :)

Commercial training offers a short cut to the next level, and
these days getting there quickly can mean the difference
between getting a job and not. Options are good to know about,
even if you don't need/want them.

Anyway, on to the image. Definately looking good. My only
crit would be the level of contrast, and tis is definately IMHO
bit a lot of work in Viz these days seems to lack any kind
of serious contrast, which I really like in images. Maybe try
a quick P/Shop experiment between staright render and contrasty
version??

Regards
Bri

chocot
08-05-2007, 05:39 PM
i love max 9 !!
results are surprising
we can achieve very good 3d without being a 15 years old experience artist:) ..
im now on texture baking for professional need ( does someone has a good web link?)
now, im not thinking anymore about :
1 vray :)
2 maya good results, compare to max ones ( mr quality , shaders , even nearly the very pro workflow on it )
i guess the workflow will be added next on max
If a discreet man is reading this, post it it !!


by the way, a SPECIAL question for you :

does any of you use a very small photon radius for some scene ( i already talk about it in CG society lastly )?
explain : for more precision , i send many many phtons with low radius , it gives a photon map of about 100 Mo now instead of 7 Mo ( or.. ) and fg work is,thanks to this method , lighter to compute and do not necesarry smooth a lot picture.
it give control on colors too
i never heard anyone use this method , which is , the realistic method to me , like in real world of course; Beside the fact that this should be a method to be use in the future ( beginiing 2009- more power on pc..) this is excellent to test if you have not try yet.

The Chocot -Fr - travelling around

MikeBracken
10-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Testing out the new features of MR 3.6. With the skylight portals and photographic exposure control, the light distribution is finally as good as Vray..IMHO. The production shaders are fantastic also. And of course the A&D mats are even better than before. I have to hand it
to Zap. This becoming so much much fun that it is starting to NOT feel like work. THANKS Zap !

Regards,
Mike

A little test scene.......

http://www.3dlinks.com/images/gallery/gallery9/BedMR.jpg

tryhard
10-21-2007, 08:39 AM
... very nice lightflow

convincing

sireel
10-21-2007, 11:51 PM
do you guys typically add the external photos in post or do add themm in the render somehow. I've been adding them inpost since during render they all ways look washed out.

MikeBracken
10-22-2007, 02:43 AM
I usually add them in the render. It saves me from having to always run a reflection pass.


Regards,
Mike

chocot
10-22-2007, 09:15 PM
1 yes , this lighting exercice room is, such impressining, nice 'atmosphere ', nice feeling... !!

congr.. !!

2 for phton , if you get phton passe look washed out ,try your
scene with , white material, and the photon energy musn't be too high, it has to let your image with dark areas, so ,test with primary light enregy , without sending photon , or whatever ; then turn on phton with few energy , and maybe few photon bounce ( 4-3-3, and good results often come from little radius size ( 0.02 m )
thats it .

CGTalk Moderation
10-22-2007, 09:15 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.