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NME-Se7eN
11-13-2006, 01:51 AM
I'm working on a game with a friend (sorry, not letting details loose just yet) and this will be one of the main characters. He takes his name from the famous swordsman, Mitsurugi Musashi.

This spot represents a section of the latest update. Full details can be found on the last post by me. This area will constantly be updated and dated with when the update was made.
11-30-2006
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/samuraifront.jpg

NME-Se7eN
11-13-2006, 01:56 AM
Okay, this is basically the concept artwork and orthos for the character.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/blindswordsman-1.jpg

Now, before I started, I had to creat a generic male model so that we have universal proportions throughout the entire game. So this is the wireframe of the generic male I built. Most of the characters from this side of the gender will be created from this template so naturally, once we start recruiting others, this will be the model we send out. I didn't finalize the head because, as you can see from the character design above, we don't really need to just yet. After all, we want to get two characters finished and then we'll worry about making more. Just gotta test the game engine first.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/basicmale.jpg

LaughingBun
11-13-2006, 02:06 AM
to me the model seems to have more of the preportions of a woman. I would take a look at the size of waist, hips and butt area

NME-Se7eN
11-13-2006, 02:26 AM
Believe it or not, I wanted that. He's a tad of a bishi.

BadSpleen
11-13-2006, 03:36 AM
So far so good, but the main problem is your mesh topology. I'm gonna keep glancing back and forth at the image so I'll leave it as points.

First of all what is the poly count ? As you have alot (possibly 100+) polys that are useless to the models silouette. The main part of this is the head, the topology is to say the least, dire. The topology should follow the muscles of the face, this is more a rule of thumb than a law, but you really don't need all the quads along the forehead. It looks more like it was a block primative, that has been edited.

There are also too many Ngons (more than 4 sided polys) which will cause you a knightmare if this model were to go into a game engine, try and keep as many as you can as quads, and then tris where neccasery... can't spell that.

There is no real need to model in the muscles and kneecap on the leg, and the chest area, as these can be done with normal maps. The chest cavity (between the pecs) has far too much detail. With this in mind there are far too many "thin" polys, which may work when modelling, but are a pain in the bum once you come to rig and animate.

The main points are that there is too much detail concentrated in certain areas that don't need it, try to keep the topology as even as possible, adding details only where the models silouette would be affected. Also take a look at other artists approach to modelling the face, I'll post one of mine for referrence, alothough it may not be perfect, its a better example of how a head should look (in mesh terms)

I know this model is your baby, and you may be offended to hear bad remarks, but after 2 years of it I can say that you will get criticised no matter what you do, nor how perfect you do it, so get used to it !!

On the plus side you've done a good job at keeping the model organic looking, and avoided the "tube" style arms and legs, although you may have gone slightly too far.

Chilli

BadSpleen
11-13-2006, 03:48 AM
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3520/headtopit6.th.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headtopit6.jpg)

Hope you can see what I mean about the topology following the facial muscles. I noticed after re-reading your post and saying that the head was finalised yet, however one of the most important parts of a character is the face, and I feel that getting the head right is an important part of the character modelling process. Hope it helps

Chilli

NME-Se7eN
11-13-2006, 01:18 PM
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, the head was a box mod. Main reason why I stopped at this part of the refimenent process is because the eyes and nose will be completely covered by the visor and little of the forehead will be shown past the hair but that shape will be refined regardless along with the chin. It's just hard to see where the topography needs to be in reference to a visor that didn't exist yet. I was pretty much just showing my starting point rather than progress on this model itself. When I get this character done and before we start modeling a bulk of the characters, I'll have to fix the issues on this base mesh.

And to answer your question, it stands at slightly under 3200 tris. And yes, I'll collapse certain edges and triangulate before going into the engine itself.

BigErn
11-13-2006, 03:08 PM
I think one of the major problems you need to address is the weight and form of the character. You have some concept art, which is good, but that also fails ( unfortunately ) to also convey the weight needed.

I would like to hotlink some images but without permissions I will just send you to the website instead. Check this guys concept art, http://www.fengzhudesign.com/char_30.html
I know, he is one hell of a talent, but believe me, you can still capture the same feel of solidity and form, if you check how he draws the charactesr. It will translate into 3d!

As someone else has pointed out the silhouette needs work, that combined with a solid pose, and strong form will help you get what your looking for.... the best of luck!

Hope it helps.

Ghostscape
11-13-2006, 08:58 PM
Believe it or not, I wanted that. He's a tad of a bishi.

Doesn't that mean they should have a more feminine face, not feminine hips? You really should work on making a more masculine male basemesh and then make adjustments for individual characters to make one more lithe or one more thick, etc. Right now you have very feminine propotions for the body (except for the lack of breasts), which is different than a lithe male, etc.

Your topology looks good, for the most part, except you have some extraneous polygons in the chest, feet, stomach, and forearm. The head is also not very good but it's also just a stand in so whatever.

NME-Se7eN
11-14-2006, 07:57 PM
Ghostscpae, Bishi comes directly from Bishonen which translates as "Beautiful Male." It encompasses any male which takes on feminin qualities. Could be as subtle as Tuxedo Mask Man or as blatantly female like... well, pretty much any of Yoshitaka Amanos characters.

Anywho, got the head along much faster than I thought it would take. While I do not have the long hair completely modeled, I do have it's start. Lips seems tad pronounced but this will be fixed via texture. I can't look at this head at all without thinking of Robocop but, what you gonna do? That's the nature of the beast. Anyway, sometime tonight, I'll start cutting into the torso to add geomtery. I should probably mention the end goal of poly limits on this character is roughly 6-7K. Cheers!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/face2.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/face1.jpg

NME-Se7eN
11-17-2006, 03:19 PM
I guess I have to assume, since nobody has commented on the head thus far, that it's good to go? I will be posting the torso woork soon and it you guys thought I went overboard with polys in the chest before... hoo boy. Keep in mind, like Spiderman, this characters siloutte isn't all that interesting without the blades extended but even that's cliche. The strength in the character design will HAVE to come from the details of the cybernetic parts. Especially considering it's the central concept of the character himself. If anyone is interested, I can post his priliminary backstory on here but the scenario is a constant work in progress so I can't promise certain plot aspects won't change. More coming soon, I promise.

ill_logic
11-17-2006, 07:02 PM
there's a lot of optimizing that could still be done with that face, & yet other areas where you can add more. sorry to not comment sooner, i know you were trying to move on, but this is the first time i've had a look.
is this model of the character going to be looking into the camera, talking? if not, you could definitely nix a lot of those polys down there by his mouth & chin (its hard to tell with the angle). a lot of those just don't seem necessary for the generally stylized shape you have going.
however, if he is going to talk (or even have him just displaying emotion), then i'd tweak what you have some. since you're missing the eyes, this character's going have to rely a bit more on his mouth movements to display more of the emotion. right now, it looks like you started to try & give it more of a proper mouth shape so it can be animated, but stopped. right now, it's really just like you plastered it on the generic head shape you started with. if you don't mind me using one of my meshes as an example (http://www.jaredlewis.com/3d/ds/DecSendai002.jpg).
check the wires on the mouth in that tighter shot. see how it sort of starts at the mouth & works away towards the cheeks? the idea is that when someone is talking or sneering or grimacing, the muscles of both the lips & cheeks kind of affect one another as the shapes change. on what you have right now, with the mesh you have it looks like you'd have difficulty giving him an expression that would be anything more than pursed, let alone speak without just moving his lips. if your meshflow is situated where it started more from the mouth & worked out, the expressions will look a bit more natural. especially since that's really the only facial feature you really have to work with.
also just a word of advice, it always works a little nicer if the corners of the lips don't meet at the same vertex. the mouth has more of a naturally round shape, not a harsh corner & that's another thing that kind of goes into the way it can be animated. but if he isn't talking or grimacing or even sneering, than this whole bit really is null & void, & you should just optimize it & simplify it down to just what holds the silhouette.
also, & this is just a personal suggestion so take it or leave it. if you have the 6k-7k to work with, i'd get a bit more intricate with that visor. now i'm not saying to go & model a full face or anything, but right now it just looks like its a round piece of metal grafted into his face & his nose was surgically removed in the procedure (unless that's what you're going for). maybe seperate that into two meshes & just get a bit of face to overlap while you can adjust the shape & size of the visor & not be completely dependent on the rest of the face's mesh. make sense? again that's just a suggestion. take that or leave it.
and as for the bishonen issue, i think what people are trying to say is that the model you have there essentially has birthing hips. usually in works like amano's or anybody's if they want a guy to be effeminine, they usually just don't give them very pronounced chests or shoulders, they don't keep the arms very big, that sort of thing. but they never really give them big hips or thighs & that base stand-in model you showed had that. he doesn't look like he's a bishonen, just androgynous. just keep it in mind for when you get to that part of the hero model.

sorry. there's a lot of text there. i hope you find something in all that mess helpful! keep it coming. i love samurai models (maybe too much lol) so i wanna see how this one progresses

-J

NME-Se7eN
11-30-2006, 06:04 AM
Okay, this was mainly delayed due primarily to WIP on a vertical shooter (just hammering out design docs and a basic strategy so don't expect 3D assets shown just yet), Wii, and PS3...

So here's the deal, phase 1 is complete. When I do planned projects, I work in 6 phases. First phase is always the rough hammering out and discovering the shape. Phase 2 is the optimization of Phase 1. Phase 3 is adding details to Phase 2. Phase 4 is UV layouts. Phase 5 is texturing, spec, deffuse, etc. Phase 6 is finalization including rigging. However, since we are unsure what studio we'll be using for the game, phase 6 will likely not be applied to this model for quite some time.

Right now, it's sitting at 5200 polygons but I KNOW I can drop that by at least 600 (if not double) in Phase 2. Also missing from the model is the armblades. The hands are a tad flat for my tastes but I'm considering giving them a slight curve to add some much needed bulk. I also slightly widened the hips where it would matter and generally gave him more manish anatomy (I figure, if people are bitching now, I can imagine the angry emails or mentions in the reviews when this game finally does come out). Normals have not been fixed (no point, IMO since phase 2 and 3 will kill those efforts anyway).

If you want close ups of any sections in particular, just request it.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/samuraifront.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/samuraiback.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/samuraiside.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/samuraitorso.jpg

Betcha thought this project was dead!

BadSpleen
11-30-2006, 08:34 AM
Yo this is really starting to look nice. My main crits at this point are that the hands are way too thin. It's not only that they're thin but they're the same width all the way along, and the fingers are too straight. I'd advise thickening out areas of the palm and curving the fingers more to give them a more solid feel, at the moment they look a bit more like paddles. Also at the lower back should be a recess inwards, where the muscles attach to the spine. Other than that it is looking good.


One question is why do you optimize your model before adding details ?

Keep up the good work, Chilli

NME-Se7eN
11-30-2006, 03:00 PM
Yo this is really starting to look nice. My main crits at this point are that the hands are way too thin. It's not only that they're thin but they're the same width all the way along, and the fingers are too straight. I'd advise thickening out areas of the palm and curving the fingers more to give them a more solid feel, at the moment they look a bit more like paddles. Also at the lower back should be a recess inwards, where the muscles attach to the spine. Other than that it is looking good.


One question is why do you optimize your model before adding details ?

Keep up the good work, Chilli

Agreed on the hands. That is a problem area I need to work on. For the low back though, I can see how you missed it but there is a curve inward. It's just that the arms hide it well. Here's a shot from before I started work on the arms or anything below the chest details.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/fullsideB.jpg

As for the optimization question, well, let's put it this way. There are TONS of areas where I cut just for spacial reasonings. Before I know how much detail I can throw onto areas like the hands, wasit guards, visor, cloth, or even the sectional plating on the legs, I have to know exactly how many polies I can throw that sections way. So I'll combine all those sections, merge edges, and start collapsing areas where I can. If I can get this model to 4000 tris (should be fairly easy to do), that will give me 2000-3000 tris I can use to add details like curving the mouth so that animation is possible or, more importantly, finalize the areas where the arm blades will come out. Even place areas where the character would attach a sword and other weapons. Each character will have character specific special attacks and the blade-arms for this character will be limited to those.

NME-Se7eN
12-06-2006, 01:24 AM
So.. that's it? No one else is gonna say anything until the next update? Well, I opted down to 4400 tris and started adding details once again so next time you see him, he'll be loaded with goodies.

BadSpleen
12-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Well then get to it yo ! :thumbsup:


Chilli

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