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View Full Version : Weapon - Pistol for Subsist mod


JuddWack
11-04-2006, 02:03 AM
I'm working on this mod team and they liked my sniper rifle I made and posted here previously so they asked me to do all the weapons. This is the pistol I recently completed. I don't think I'll rework it unless you notice a major error I overlooked, but I would appreciate comments on it.

It's weighing in at 1950 tris including the clip with a 2048 texture for color, spec and bump. It's for use in a first person mod.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/152/07hp6.jpg

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4776/texturesv3.jpg

Johny
11-04-2006, 02:12 AM
my only comment is that the ammount of detail you are putting in the texture would fit a 512x512 and still seem almost the same eheh , still keep going, i like the design ;)

Ghostscape
11-04-2006, 02:42 AM
I'm going to second Johny on the texture usage. Especially considering that your model is so low poly. You have very little actual detail in the texture map, just a random pattern all over. You'd do better to scale the texture to a 1024x1024 and then add a lot more detail.

ArchangelTalon
11-04-2006, 02:57 AM
I agree with Johny.

This texture would look just as good at 1024 - only a quarter of the texture size. It'd still hold up well at 512 (1/16th of a 2048 texture!). Actually most of the very fine detail you've put in there at 2048 will probably be lost when you put it in-game as it's just too fine.

There's probably a lot of texture space being used up by parts of the gun you'll never even see in first person view, too :x

Still, it's a decent looking weapon. Check out some of the weapon skinning tutorials over at http://st.burst.cc/tutorials.htm (if it comes back up - appears to be down just now).

Ghostscape
11-04-2006, 05:44 AM
I agree with Johny.

This texture would look just as good at 1024 - only a quarter of the texture size. It'd still hold up well at 512 (1/16th of a 2048 texture!). Actually most of the very fine detail you've put in there at 2048 will probably be lost when you put it in-game as it's just too fine.

There's probably a lot of texture space being used up by parts of the gun you'll never even see in first person view, too :x

Still, it's a decent looking weapon. Check out some of the weapon skinning tutorials over at http://st.burst.cc/tutorials.htm (if it comes back up - appears to be down just now).

st.burst.cc has been down for a couple of weeks. I've seen his tutorials mirrored on some HL2 tutorials page that had a lot of custom CS guns for download but I can't find the link and it's been driving me nuts :(

ArchangelTalon
11-04-2006, 05:49 AM
Ah, damn.

I never really used them, I found they gave a very specific and obvious "custom CS model" style to things that you never actually found in any other game (or, infact, in CS). Handy to pass around to people, though.

JuddWack
11-04-2006, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the comments guys. I guess 2048 textures aren't really necesary in a source mod, however I suppose I still failed with the extra space. Probably could have finished this in half the time if I textured at 1024. The big texture was really hogging my ram.

I know I'm using a lot of texture space that won't be seen in first person but for the third person we were planning on using the same texture sheet with an optomized model rather than painting a new one. Is there any reason why that may be a bad idea?

Do you guys think a 2048 texture is overkill on a first person weapon or do I just need practice with details? I'd appreciate a link to those tutorials if anyone ever comes across it.

ArchangelTalon
11-04-2006, 01:57 PM
I know I'm using a lot of texture space that won't be seen in first person but for the third person we were planning on using the same texture sheet with an optomized model rather than painting a new one. Is there any reason why that may be a bad idea?
Yeah, when you optimise a model for first person view, you remove all of the faces that aren't ever seen once the gun's animated (because there's no need for them to be there - it's just extra strain making your computer render things that will never be seen). Therefore you'll end up having texture space for parts of the gun that no longer exist.

JuddWack
11-04-2006, 03:13 PM
But a 3rd person view will use the whole gun, and if the two share the same texture map then that would be less textures to load rather than having a seperate map for each view. Is that acceptable or is there a reason why I should avoid this?

ArchangelTalon
11-04-2006, 03:33 PM
It is an it isn't, I guess.

Really, you'd want to put as much detail as possible into the first person texture (looking at maybe a 1024 for a HL2 mod) which means using texture space for only polys that are seen/used and on a large-res texture. This generally means you need another texture for your world models so you can include the removed pieces.

You'll probably also want to paint in detail to your world model texture that is modeled on the first person model but is too complex for a world model. So the entire texture could be much different and much smaller (256 for a HL2 world model pistol? 512x256 or a 512 for a larger gun).

A few more tiny textures for world models really isn't going to break the Source engine or cause too much strain on rendering, either.

JuddWack
11-04-2006, 03:42 PM
I gotcha. I'll probably continue the weapon sets this way to keep it consistent but i'll drop the texture size down to 1024. Thanks for the help guys.

BTW Archangel, I checked out your portfolio. You got some nice stuff. Good luck for when you apply. I'll probably be doing the same about 6 months from now.

LaughingBun
11-04-2006, 05:50 PM
yeah as for the st.burst.cc thing, you guys better sign up for sourceblog.org it mirrors alot of the same tuts and has an even more impressive database tha burst did.

Ghostscape
11-04-2006, 11:34 PM
yeah as for the st.burst.cc thing, you guys better sign up for sourceblog.org it mirrors alot of the same tuts and has an even more impressive database tha burst did.

THANKS! That's the site that I haven't been able to find.

The burst tutorials are pretty good reads to get an understanding of how to work on stuff, even if they do wind up creating that "o hay l@@k my custom CS gunz" style.

Also if you're honestly planning on using a 2048x2048 texture for a world model gun you are going to kill your performance.

Uncompressed, a 2048x2048 with alpha is 16 megs of video RAM. With DXT1 compression, its down to about 5 megs.

Now put 6 different guns on the screen at once and watch as 30 megs of video ram are eaten up for 6 tiny guns that probably don't even take up a 512x512's worth of screen space.

JuddWack
11-05-2006, 01:47 AM
I was planning on resizing the world gun to 512. Most of us are pretty unexperienced in modding so I don't really have anyone on the team giving me good instructions or limitations. Also it's a small team so we have to cut some corners for instance the choice between repainting and modeling a world gun or optomizing the mesh from a first person for a world view and then resizing the texture.

GradiusCancer
11-05-2006, 04:51 PM
As you've already heard, your UV layout and material are out-of-control inefficient, but that's ok thanks to texture baking. Max and most other modeling packages allow you to bake materials down to other UV layouts. What you can do is, duplicate this mesh, redo the Uvs in a tight, mirroring fashion, the bake the super huge texture down to the new layout. Since your starting with such a large material, the transition should work perfectly with minor touch-ups in photoshop.

You should also use this technique for the 3rd person view weapon,which would most likely be less polygons and require a slightly different UV layout. We use this technique regularly, and if you'd like more information on using this in MAX, I should be able to shed some light on it.

JuddWack
11-05-2006, 09:35 PM
Hey, I was just about to ask that question. How do you mean ineffecient. When I have one material meet another I usually break it off into a seperate uv element so I have a clean transition. It really is a pain in the butt because I end up with a million tiny little piece I need to paint, fore instance the silver stripe, but it's a nice clean transition between materials. Is this what you mean? Could you please briefly describe some ways you may rearrange the UV's.

I know what you mean about baking the material. I've never done it but I imagine it's in the render to texture dialogue somewhere. Thanks for the help.

Ghostscape
11-05-2006, 10:00 PM
Mirror the duplicated parts. All of them.

Here's a hint: Nobody sees the left and right side at the same time. Hell, nobody sees the right side, PERIOD. This goes back to Talon's "animate and then unwrap" tip, which you really should be doing so you can cut as much as possible. If there is no fundamental difference between the sides, there should be NO difference between the sides. Mirror Mirror Mirror Mirror everything you possibly can.

But by mirroring everything, you'll cut the amount of space used IN HALF. For the record with your current texture that's like shaving off 1024x2048 which is loltastic.

JuddWack
11-06-2006, 01:12 PM
Mirroring definitely occured to me but I thought it would be nice to have a unique map for the whole gun rather than mirrored parts. If that's more appropriate I will do it for next time.

At the moment we have no animator so... well you know.

I got enough to go off of now. Thanks everyone. I'll show you the next completed project.

Tonedef
11-09-2006, 08:44 PM
I am not really critiquing the texture, but more the model. Is there any way that we could see the wire? What is the tri-count? It is just that for Source the model it lacks a lot of detail, for a pistol without deleted faces you are looking at 2-3k.

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