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My Fault
02-05-2003, 06:54 PM
Steve just shot me this email and asked if I would post, so here it is. BTW, there's some really great threads out there (the new antialiasing thread is awesome!) and it's nice to see that a lot of people are attacking issues they have with the program and not attacking the individuals. I just don't understand the personal attacks and find them childish and unproductive.

************************************
Here's an official response from Martin- I'd appreciate it if you'd post it on CGTalk

I guess people are waiting for some response from Hash on this forum.
Here it is:

1) Hash operates a “mailing list” which is quite different from a “forum”. (We plan to someday offer both because they each serve different purposes). The biggest difference on a forum is that a tagline like “Hash has a bug” will be a single topic with replies under it. Only people who want to read about bugs (or a good restaurant for that matter) will click the topic. On a mailing list, every reply is relayed to every mailing list member. Most of the thousands of mailing list recipients don’t want to read those threads. Not only that, the traffic increase for spurious threads bogs down our T1 lines, (on Friday we max out completely). Our mailing list clients ASK us to limit the kinds of messages they receive! If you are removed from the mailing list for infringing upon other people’s rights to non-congested traffic, simply request to be reinstated with your courteous understanding.

2) Version 9 was a bitch. You think you had it bad, try being in my shoes the last couple of years. Are you complaining about the $99 subscription? $99?! Just the right to bitch at us is worth $99.
Seriously, get V10 and let’s move on. If you think you deserve a free upgrade: you bought your product in November; you sent in a lot of bug reports; we use your artwork in our advertising (with your permission, of course), contact Steve and make your case.

3) After reading every message on this forum twice, I can say there’s mostly good stuff here, but it’s like some kind of family squabble. I agree with almost every complaint, BUT we’re not changing to somebody else’s modeling paradigm, and we’re not somebody else’s plug-in! Other than that, every feature request is on our list (some higher up than others).

4) Documentation _ Have you looked on your CD? There’s over 1000 pages of on-line help, which we add to regularly. Plus, several thousand more pages are available in the A:M community. Plus, the video training tapes. Plus, the after-market instruction. Yeah, 3D is difficult, so we may be only half way there, but give credit where credit is due.

5) Subjective render complaints make me ill. If you’ve got a real rendering issue, send an image with the artifact circled, and the data, and we’ll immediately look into it.

6) We WANT to be the entry level animation product, because it is the bulk of the 3D market and we like helping new talent get noticed. Like I’ve said before _ we’d love for you to use us professionally, but if you can’t, we UNDERSTAND why you had to move on. (The reason V9 was so buggy was because we were trying to address high-end features like relationships and scripting _ what a mistake!)

7) I LIKE our customers _ that means you.

Hey, I know you want to see us successful. We’re the same guys who’ve been poking along for 15 years. You know us. We know most of you.
I’m sorry there was a Hash bash outbreak _ but it’s just venting. We can take it.

Sincerely,
Martin Hash

Wegg
02-05-2003, 07:04 PM
Well that was a hell of a lot better than his first reply.

Good on ya Martin.:thumbsup:

I think your very wrong about the list though. People are smart enough to click on topics they are interested in and shouldn't have it "edited" for them. Especially when the editing seems to revolve around curbing ANYTHING negative about the product. Not just bug reports. Several people have mentioned to me that they have been kicked just by mentioning that other people have moved on to other software packages. That has nothing to do with bugs. . .

bugzilla
02-05-2003, 07:11 PM
I understand his viewpoint now on some issues. I hope that Martim Hash and Steve Sappington keep tabs on this list to see what we're really thinking. If Hash listens to the honest opinions of the users that can only make the software better, and that can only be good for us all.

koon69
02-05-2003, 07:13 PM
For a minute here I had stated liking Hash again. It seems whenever Martin talks - not much is good.

What got me was when he said v9 was a bitch and he had a tough time. Isnt he the one that created this!? Isnt that HIS job!? Get 10 and be done with it. Very arrogant and disrespectful to users if you ask me.

There is documentation - all not very good. Thats the point. Its there - its the quality that people bitch about. How many of us HAD to buy the great book from David Rogers!?

Render comparisons makes him ill -same to me - for different reasons. peopel complain because there is a reason they are complaning. How many sent examples? Did you hear from Hash at all?

What got me the most was that he said they want the entry level group. IF you need more and better he understands that you had to leave. Is this lame or what!?

Quote:(The reason V9 was so buggy was because we were trying to address high-end features like relationships and scripting _ what a mistake!)

What!!! This guy is lost. he at least admited that 9 sucked. It was a mistake to try to reach the pro level? I guess Hash wil lalways be the beginenr app where people will eventualy go away. Sad.

I think this made up my mind. I was going to buy LW but didnt. I felt that Hash was making good points and listening. This aint so. I am now moving to the pro level to LW. But at least Martin understands.

What a joke.

pdaley
02-05-2003, 07:15 PM
I'm not quite sure how the issues that were listed by users were actually addressed in this note. Some things even seem to contradict... Aiming for the entry level animator, but defending their approach to documentation at the same time. I've recently seen what it is that Maya and MAX and others call documentation. It's quite different than AM. I think even entry level folks could learn Maya with what comes installed with it (Instant Maya). The agents (wizard guy) COULD be useful if there were was more there. As it stands now, 4 or 5 tuts that cover extremely basic things that don't build on one another don't exactly lead newbies to the promised land.

The part about the renderer comments making him ill... reminds me of Kieth Lango's "How to make your hash renders not look like Barf" tutorial...

Hoping this is not the end of Martin's interest in this forum,
Paul

Nonproductive
02-05-2003, 07:17 PM
:applause:
Excellent response this time! This sounds like a Martin that gives a crap instead of a Martin that told everyone that was unhappy to take a walk - like the first response.

:thumbsup: for Hash!

*edit after reading responses posted while I typed*

His point about the mailing list is spot on - *IF* he follows through and supports a forum. (why not this one and save them some server resources?) Otherwise it's blowing smoke.

I agree on them being an entry level app and liking it there. Entry level doesn't mean "weak." There's nothing wrong with less feature bloat. But again, *stick* to this and stop trying to fit every buzzword feature in the program. Simple and fast are what makes A:M sweet - and why folks working with much more complex apps like to "entertain" themselves with Hash at home. (um...Hash the company, not the plant ;) )

I think the response was a god one all things considered - it means he is listening - now he needs to act on his words. If he does - instead of spouting more marketing BS - then I will be first in line to give them my $99 for v10 or v11.

As for his statement about being in his shoes for v9. Don't read into it...Hash has always been more of a "golf partner" then "business partner" to their users. I didn't take it has anything but Martin trying to be "human."

Of course...all opinions are my own ;)

JTalbotski
02-05-2003, 07:40 PM
I, personally, am glad Martin responded to this forum. :applause: I greatly appreciate his admitting that v9 was bad. I feel that does a lot to break down the "wall" that has built up between Hash, Inc. and it's customers. I like to hear what the Hash guys are doing or trying to do. I wish he was more specific about which feature request was highest on the list. I'm hoping the "guide hairs feature" is at the top followed by an OSX version!

Unfortunately, a lot of angry people took this opportunity (forum) to personally attack individuals instead of "the company" or "the product". Maybe they didn't realize how obvious and unreasonable their hatred was. Or maybe they were trying to shame Hash into getting better. That may be in part due to the strict rules of the mailing list or their feeling that Hash, Inc. wasn't even listening anymore.

I wonder, is there a way on this forum to view all the posts of a specific individual? That could be very embarrassing to some people. Or maybe they wouldn't even be embarrassed...:hmm:

Anyway, will I upgrade to v10 now? Maybe. If I KNEW there was going to be an OSX version or guide hairs THIS year I would upgrade in a minute. Like I said, I like to know what they are working on.

Jim

My Fault
02-05-2003, 07:49 PM
Haha, I think most people were just venting. Yeah there are a few guys who have acted completely without any semblance of class (like you said, just check some of their replies in this and other forums here) and continue to do so, but I think they are in the minority.

I think this is a good start. Steve said that they have definitely been reading the forum and have added stuff to their future feature list. I'm guessing they are ignoring posts from the blowhards who are posting personal attacks. I don't know this for sure, but it's an educated (very well edu-macated :p ) guess on my part. I know I would rather spend my time reading a well thought out post then some of the maniacal rants around here. They are a small company and take some of this personally. Since it is their livelihood I can totally understand why. I know I'll be upgrading to 10 now!

Natess44
02-05-2003, 11:11 PM
That was much better than his first reply and I think that some of the anger on this forum was caused by his first reply to the list. At least we know what they are thinking now.

koon69
02-06-2003, 12:14 AM
I pretty much agree with what is being said excpet for this point

6) We WANT to be the entry level animation product, because it is the bulk of the 3D market and we like helping new talent get noticed. Like I’ve said before _ we’d love for you to use us professionally, but if you can’t, we UNDERSTAND why you had to move on. (The reason V9 was so buggy was because we were trying to address high-end features like relationships and scripting _ what a mistake!)

I dont get it. Are they saying that they will only improve AM to a certain point and just let the other apps improve beyond what AM can ever do? Is AM a launching pad to LW and Max? Getting new talent noticed. Ok then they move on to Max. Whats the point in that? I just dont get it. Wouldnt it be better - business and professional - to have someone get noticed then stay with AM. Its like winning the super bowl and they ask -hey, you created something great with AM - whats next? 3DS Max! Yeah that will go over real well.

My $.02

Wegg
02-06-2003, 12:27 AM
If AM were world class. Then studios would buy it. If studios would buy it. . . then they would make demands from their software. That would in turn force Hash Inc. to work really really hard for every studio user that purchases the product. Right now. . . the average AM user fires up their software. . . maybe once a month and gives them a bug report maybe. . . once a year.

They really DON'T want a lot of Pro's to use it 24/7. Because "Pro" users are just too damn demanding. One or two is ok. But not whole studio's who's work is under NDA so they can't show it off at trade shows etc. . .

See what I'm saying?

There is a self imposed cap. It won't get any better than this. They consider adding features for pro users a "big mistake" so. . .

Martin's last post is kinda like <Edited> and stuff. . . crazy.

koon69
02-06-2003, 12:45 AM
I can see that. But this is where I get ticked. If Hash is nothing more than a springboard to Max or Maya - then why start with Hash in the first place? If at the end of the day - as a artist who wants to grow - knowing full well that AM cant cut it - why bother learning it? If the end result is the user/artist is going to use Max - why not just start with Max in the first place? Cut to the chase and learn what your going to use at the end of the day. It suck as an artist thinking that all this time spent learning the beginners app - you could have learned the other app that will make you a artist and money. I guess Im tired of taking the beginenrs road. Time to ramp on the highway.

JTalbotski
02-06-2003, 02:33 AM
Wegg, if you weren't the "moderator", I'd ask the moderator to reprimand you for your poor choice in comparisons. But since you didn't mention Apartheid, I guess it's okay. I can see the reason for some of your complaints about the software. Maybe you can explain your reasons for such personal hatred.

Jim

Natess44
02-06-2003, 03:44 AM
I don't agree with what Hash said about A:M being a "entry level program" too. Why can't it be more? What's stopping them? If they don't want to put in the effort though they could at least make the SDK more flexible so at least those that do program can make it more.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 04:17 AM
I think people are reading waaay more in to this statement then there is. What is so wrong with finding your niche and being happy with it? Hash has been around for something like 15 years and as far as I know they've always been profitable. That's pretty darned impressive. Seems to me they understand that there is room for more then one 3d package out there and they are ok with that. They may not be perfect (and who is) but they do dish up quite a bit for the price. Hopefully v10 keeps progressing in a positive direction.

Hookflash
02-06-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Natess44
I don't agree with what Hash said about A:M being a "entry level program" too. Why can't it be more? What's stopping them?

Have you ever used Maya or Houdini? If your friend wanted to dabble in 3d as a hobby, would you recommend either of these apps? I would hope not. I think that's what Martin is talking about. A:M seems to revolve around simplicity, rather than high-end productivity, and this is one of it's potential benefits for hobbyists. Imo

jdates
02-06-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by koon69
...If at the end of the day - as a artist who wants to grow - knowing full well that AM cant cut it - why bother learning it? If the end result is the user/artist is going to use Max - why not just start with Max in the first place?

Why indeed.

Well, A:M CAN cut it, if you want the short and ugly answer.
I'm a professional user, I use Maya and now XSI.. and I must say, I've been perfectly content with A:M. Renderer and everything!

If you're getting into software JUST to get a job, then you pro'lly want to learn the programs the studios are using. However, if you're a lone artist, and want a program to knock out some character animation quickly.. then A:M will float.

I personally have to agree with Martain. Hash has created a unique thing that people seem to take for granted and in fact often give the developers a hard time. Then wonder why they are short, or curt with them on a forum.

The fact that you have direct feedback in how the software is being made. The fact that we can report bugs and have them fixed... The fact that when a case is made for a feature, they DO listen. Everyone has a story on why they hate to talk to Steve, or this and that. I still stand by my belief in how they are approached. Steve, and all the guys have been nothing but nice and receptive to me since day 1. (even AFTER ReelFX dumped them!). They are like any other professional relationship. It means taking a non-agressive stance on "problems". Don't take things so personally, and don't make personal attacks. I can't understand why people make demands of the guys at Hash. It just doesn't work like that. If you are mad you paid your $300 and don't get to make demands of Hash, then your reality is skewed slightly.

Animation Master is an ongoing project. The ongoing development is going to be rough, and awkward for some. I guess it depends on what you're looking for out of your software.
The price you pay for the inexpensive cost of the tool is that you're the R&D and QC department.

Sure they could raise the price and spend another 12 months between releases just trying to debug it. But then everyone would complain that it takes too long to get a new version.

People are never happy.

jdates




:D

dfaris
02-06-2003, 04:59 AM
Here's an official response from Martin- I'd appreciate it if you'd post it on CGTalk

1) Hash operates a “mailing list” which is quite different from a “forum”. (We plan to someday offer both because they each serve different purposes). The biggest difference on a forum is that a tagline like “Hash has a bug” will be a single topic with replies under it. Only people who want to read about bugs (or a good restaurant for that matter) will click the topic. On a mailing list, every reply is relayed to every mailing list member. Most of the thousands of mailing list recipients don’t want to read those threads. Not only that, the traffic increase for spurious threads bogs down our T1 lines, (on Friday we max out completely). Our mailing list clients ASK us to limit the kinds of messages they receive! If you are removed from the mailing list for infringing upon other people’s rights to non-congested traffic, simply request to be reinstated with your courteous understanding.


This is fine run your list anyway you want and every year or so your list members will be reduced. I'm sure some people should be kicked but when somebody is asking for real help about bugs and need help fast because we dont get replies from hash, the list is the only way to go so they should not be kicked.

2) Version 9 was a bitch. You think you had it bad, try being in my shoes the last couple of years. Are you complaining about the $99 subscription? $99?! Just the right to bitch at us is worth $99.
Seriously, get V10 and let’s move on. If you think you deserve a free upgrade: you bought your product in November; you sent in a lot of bug reports; we use your artwork in our advertising (with your permission, of course), contact Steve and make your case.



You have got to be kidding me this is this is the most ridicules and condescending thing in this post. Your freaking telling me you know you sold a piece of crap app and still want us to give you another $99 for something we already bought? I cant believe you even said this, it's like a car dealer selling a lemon and saying oh well to bad come in and I'll sell you another one. I think this is now open for litigation I will have my lawyer contact you next week.
Unfreaking believable! I don't believe you knew this was a piece of crap and you still put it out as a final release without extending the release date. You didn't even try to make good on your word and produce a good app or offer a free upgrade to people that trusted you and bought it now if you bought it in November and did all that other stuff you have to make a case? well my lawyer will make a case you pampas ass!.
Man am I pissed at this comment.

3) After reading every message on this forum twice, I can say there’s mostly good stuff here, but it’s like some kind of family squabble. I agree with almost every complaint, BUT we’re not changing to somebody else’s modeling paradigm, and we’re not somebody else’s plug-in! Other than that, every feature request is on our list (some higher up than others).


Your damn right there is good stuff here, you know why its good BECAUSE ITS TRUE! If you treat your family like this I'm sure they are leaving you as fast as you kick people from the list. How long does it take for you to deal with a feature request? the render problem has been on that list for years but you still think its a world class renderer. WAKE UP ITS OLD AND OUT OF DATE MAKE A NEW ONE.

Here it is plain and simple so you can understand:
We are not asking you to be somebody's plugin we are asking you to make AM better so you can be there plugin...get it?

4) Documentation _ Have you looked on your CD? There’s over 1000 pages of on-line help, which we add to regularly. Plus, several thousand more pages are available in the A:M community. Plus, the video training tapes. Plus, the after-market instruction. Yeah, 3D is difficult, so we may be only half way there, but give credit where credit is due.


Have you read the stuff you have on the CD and in the AM community? not one thing that has to do with version 9 or 10s new features and how to use them. Didn't you ever take a tech report writing class when you were getting all your diplomas?


5) Subjective render complaints make me ill. If you’ve got a real rendering issue, send an image with the artifact circled, and the data, and we’ll immediately look into it.


Well fix the damn thing and you wont be ill. images have been sent to you for the last 5 years and you still don't see a problem. Your baby (the renderer) is not up to par anymore. Do you even use the program for anything to make money or do you just take take take it from the users even if you put out a piece of crap like V9?

6) We WANT to be the entry level animation product, because it is the bulk of the 3D market and we like helping new talent get noticed. Like I’ve said before _ we’d love for you to use us professionally, but if you can’t, we UNDERSTAND why you had to move on. (The reason V9 was so buggy was because we were trying to address high-end features like relationships and scripting _ what a mistake!)

7) I LIKE our customers _ that means you.


Well Martin here is a tip for ya entry level apps should work like you say they should and not just suck the money from entry level people so they can get the app they paid for.
If you want it to be the entry level app then why are you working on high end features and why do you tell people they can do anything the big boys can do when they cant. It should be "AM the entry level app" not "A cross-platform modeling, rendering and animation package that rivals high-end software costing thousands more" because it does not even come close at this stage in the game.

Hey, I know you want to see us successful. We’re the same guys who’ve been poking along for 15 years. You know us. We know most of you.
I’m sorry there was a Hash bash outbreak _ but it’s just venting. We can take it.

Sincerely,
Martin Hash

when you treat your users like this I do not want to see you be successful. Your not the same guys the other guys use to listen to there best users like Wegg not kick them off the list for trying to help others and AM be the app it should be. The "Hash Bash" is not just venting people are pissed off and feel like they were robbed when will you wake up and see this? Until you do the new people buying AM will be affected because the tons of people you just pissed off will and have sent the word that you don't give a rats ass about the users save there money just like the word that we use to say about how good AM was. And every mag that does a story on AM will get the other side of the story as well as your side.

Well with that being said I really do hope you wake up I almost thought you were getting the point but I see its the same old hash. What is the problem why cant you see what is going on?

Dave

My Fault
02-06-2003, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by jdates
People are never happy.

jdates

:D

Speaking of never being happy (and just a quick change of subject), when the heck is "Day Off the Dead" gonna be done? I wanna see it! :p

Hookflash
02-06-2003, 05:07 AM
jdates: I basically disagree with every single thing you just said. Especially the "poor, oppressed Hash developers" slant. Normally I would elaborate, but I have a pretty severe case of diarrhea right now, so... um, Gotta run:eek:

jdates
02-06-2003, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by Hookflash
jdates: I basically disagree with every single thing you just said. Especially the "poor, oppressed Hash developers" slant. Normally I would elaborate, but I have a pretty severe case of diarrhea right now, so... um, Gotta run:eek:


:shrug:

use it, or don't.

jdates
02-06-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
Speaking of never being happy (and just a quick change of subject), when the heck is "Day Off the Dead" gonna be done? I wanna see it! :p


The goal come hell or high-water is to premiere at Siggraph this year! If we don't get accepted into the Electronic Theatre, it'll be around anyway!

dfaris
02-06-2003, 05:20 AM
jdates:

It might work if you are doing toon rendering or something but if you try and use all the other stuff its crap and you know it.

ruscler
02-06-2003, 05:38 AM
He knew that V9 was crappy and we need to go on with it?

I dont gamble my money, I work too hard for it so yes $99 is a big deal to me. Martin obviously live in a different world, and has no respect for the consumer for his crappy product.

I dont think I am motivated into pleading my case for a free upgrade from a man who accuse me of owning a crack copy of AM8.5
I wonder if there is a crack version of AM, or the need for the CD dongle, I think I would worried about that after they get it working to be stable. If anyone ever find the crack version of Hash that they tried so hard to prevent , please tell me if its more stable then the original copy?

And dfaris if you get a consent from a lawyer willing to take on Hash for knowingly selling a crappy version of AM for a measely $99, please include me in. I have not heard of an apology for the slander, nor any redemption for those that bought V9.5 and I thinks its time to use stronger method of getting Martin to listen. Words doesn't seem to work, maybe cash crutches with a lawsuit is the last straw.

Martin! if you thought that violating the list rule was just venting, Well I for one will no longer keep quiet, not after your last remark. Your last push in your remarks just now fuel me to do everything in my wrath to shut you down!!!

Hookflash
02-06-2003, 05:55 AM
I wonder... Do you think a law-suit would really have a chance? I mean, Martin just flat out admitted that they *knew* 9.x was crap, and yet the brochures tell us otherwise. So, he lied, lightening our wallets in the process. With most "false advertising" that you see, the company can justify it by saying "Well, we really think we have a great product here, and we weren't aware of it's flaws when we sold it to you". Martin can no longer say this.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 06:25 AM
You guys are unbelievable. I am starting to understand more and more why Hash has the stance they have. When in doubt, read more in to a statement then there is. At least while your planning your incredible lawsuit you'll have an excuse for not doing anyting.

Jeff: Look forward to seeing "Day Off the Dead". From everything I've seen of it so far... fantastic! Very stylish!

dfaris
02-06-2003, 06:33 AM
My Fault:

Whats the problem? What dont you understand there? What are we reading into the statment?

Did Martin say that V9 was a bitch and he knew it but sold it anyway and now are telling us to get V10 so we can have a working app? Hash wouldn't need this stance if they would even come close to selling what they say they are.

AM has gone down hill from version 8.5 and they have said they were going to fix it everytime.

Hey if it works for you the way you want it to then great use it more power to ya but dont bad mouth all the people that have been duped. Dont say anything if you feel good about it.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by dfaris
Hey if it works for you the way you want it to then great use it more power to ya but dont bad mouth all the people that have been duped. Dont say anything if you feel good about it.

Oh I see, so you can whine and complain all over the place but I shouldn't say anything. Must've missed that memo. :p

dfaris
02-06-2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
Oh I see, so you can whine and complain all over the place but I shouldn't say anything. Must've missed that memo. :p

Its not a memo but you say that we dont have a real complaint and we do its that simple. We couldn't get any help from hash and as soon as we came to a different place (CGTalk) to help ourselfs hash starts to finaly putting out emails? Come on that should tell you right there that we have a valid complaint.

What I'm saying is if it works for you great but don't say we dont have a valid complaint, because we do. You could try and help address the complaints by seeing if some of the stuff we are saying is true and sending hash an email about it.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by dfaris
jdates:

It might work if you are doing toon rendering or something but if you try and use all the other stuff its crap and you know it.

So not only is Hash lying to you but now Jeff is too. Do you listen to yourself? It's stuff like this that makes people not listen to you and not give any credence to your complaints. Maybe this is why Hash doesn't pay you any mind. I'm reasonably sure that you don't mean to come off this way, but you sure do to me. Perhaps making your point without accusing someone of lying and without being so defamatory and Hash may listen.

dfaris
02-06-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
So not only is Hash lying to you but now Jeff is too. Do you listen to yourself? It's stuff like this that makes people not listen to you and not give any credence to your complaints. Maybe this is why Hash doesn't pay you any mind. I'm reasonably sure that you don't mean to come off this way, but you sure do to me. Perhaps making your point without accusing someone of lying and without being so defamatory and Hash may listen.

LOL this is funny, I never said Jeff was lying talk about reading into a post gezz. I know Jeffs stuf and its fine work but most of the stuff I have seen is toon rendering and that may work fine.

So what your saying is that everyone else here posting complaints are lying and all the folks that got the boot from the email list for asking about bugs when they recived no reply from hash are lying. Hash does not pay all of these folks any mind because they dont want to hear it. I said hash is lying because they have for many years.

I have said if AM works for you great. But we are not all saying this stuff because we are lying its because there are some problems with AM that are real and affecting lots of people and we need them fix, we have been asking them to fix this stuff for years and years and have gotten nothing from them but more bugs. V9 was the breaking point for most we paid for a program hoping that hash would have fixed lots of stuff in a rewrite of the app but we got an app that was even worse and now they are telling us to pay again. These are valid complaints and we have been talking about them here.

If I come off offending to you sorry but I'm offened by hash and you when you tell me I have no complaint.

ruscler
02-06-2003, 07:22 AM
Who the heck are you "no fault"?

you come from nowhere and promise to speak to Hash on the behalf of those with legimate complaints about hash software and then turn around and bash those with complaints about hash.
And your now questioning Dfaris legitamacy rights to complain?

I am now questioning your misleading tactics to let people know that hash is now listening thru you.

Thanks for your helpfull concern, it was pretty convincing for awhile. I am sure to recieved your flatulents of childish sniveling remarks about how we are doing hash wrong. But I have heard more than I want from you, but dont let me stop you from carrying on.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 07:25 AM
I'm starting to think we are the only ones too stupid to just go to bed :p

Seriously though, I never said that you can't complain. My only beef with the complaining is if it gets personal as that never seems to solve anything. Thiis forum can be a great place but I'd rather see it focus on problems and solutions and not the meaningless bitching that some of the threads end up in. Case in point this thread. Someone takes Martins comment, turns it around and then other folks join in and start talking about lawsuits... ridiculous.

Maybe we can get Billy to make a sticky thread, call it the "Bitch Hole" and people can use that for the crazed rants keeping the rest of the forum for more productive use :thumbsup:

Sorry if I've come off a bit bitchy myself but I'm rasslin with a pain in the butt project at work right now and haven't slept nearly enough. Thank the big G upstairs that the weekend is coming so I can be hitting the snow covered slopes!! :drool:

My Fault
02-06-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by ruscler
Who the heck are you "no fault"?

you come from nowhere and promise to speak to Hash on the behalf of those with legimate complaints about hash software and then turn around and bash those with complaints about hash.
And your now questioning Dfaris legitamacy rights to complain?

I am now questioning your misleading tactics to let people know that hash is now listening thru you.

Thanks for your helpfull concern, it was pretty convincing for awhile. I am sure to recieved your flatulents of childish sniveling remarks about how we are doing hash wrong. But I have heard more than I want from you, but dont let me stop you from carrying on.

Wow, "no fault", must've taken you all day to come up with that one ruscler. Genius, that is truly the jape of the day!

And who said Hash is listening thru me? Yeah I'll be talking to Steve but I thought it was pretty clear from my posts and others that Hash is reading this forum as well, even your amazing wit. Feel free to ignore me ruscler but I will certainly be waiting breathless for more of your a1 brand of humor! :thumbsup:

dfaris
02-06-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
I'm starting to think we are the only ones too stupid to just go to bed :p

Seriously though, I never said that you can't complain. My only beef with the complaining is if it gets personal as that never seems to solve anything.

Sorry if I've come off a bit bitchy myself but I'm rasslin with a pain in the butt project at work right now and haven't slept nearly enough. Thank the big G upstairs that the weekend is coming so I can be hitting the snow covered slopes!! :drool:

I agree going to bed now.

The complaining is personal because I feel like i got robbed and that is personal.

NP with the bitchy stuff, that does not bother me.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by dfaris
I agree going to bed now.

The complaining is personal because I feel like i got robbed and that is personal.

NP with the bitchy stuff, that does not bother me.

I can totally dig where your coming from. Hopefully Hash can turn things around as it sucks losing someone of your abilities. I'll still keep hoping!

:beer:

penguinpavilion
02-06-2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
I think people are reading waaay more in to this statement then there is. What is so wrong with finding your niche and being happy with it? Hash has been around for something like 15 years and as far as I know they've always been profitable. That's pretty darned impressive. Seems to me they understand that there is room for more then one 3d package out there and they are ok with that. They may not be perfect (and who is) but they do dish up quite a bit for the price. Hopefully v10 keeps progressing in a positive direction.

I think the thing that got peoples dandur up was that AM was touted to have "Professional Power", when they were really shooting for the entry level crowd. I think finding your niche and being happy their is fine, just don't lure people in under false pretenses. I have to give them credit, they are listening.

dfaris
02-06-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by My Fault
I can totally dig where your coming from. Hopefully Hash can turn things around as it sucks losing someone of your abilities. I'll still keep hoping!

:beer:

Cool;

I will keep hoping too but I'm not going to pay till its done, been hoping for far to long and paying to long too.

When you are ready to leave the dark side we will be here for ya to help you out with picking a new app. :)

My Fault
02-06-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by dfaris
Cool;

I will keep hoping too but I'm not going to pay till its done, been hoping for far to long and paying to long too.

When you are ready to leave the dark side we will be here for ya to help you out with picking a new app. :)

Hehehe, I happily use Lightwave as well. As much as I like the guys at Hash I am software agnostic and will use whatever gets the job done. The main thing I like about AM is that it really is affordable by regular Joe's (and no JoeW, you don't count as a regular Joe, your more of a superJoe :p ) and Steve's a great guy who really cracks me up!

Commiekeebler
02-06-2003, 07:49 AM
I had a long, eloquent, thoughtful reply to Martin's official response, but cgtalk went down just as I posted it. I guess it wasn't meant to be - at this point, I just don't care enough about the software (or the company) to retype it any more.

The "subjective render tests" was the part that ticked me off. Apparently, my step-by-step instructions, with attached projects, textures, test renders with areas circled weren't objective enough! Well, what do you know. I won't send any of those again, don't want to waste any more of Steve's time and mine.

"No, really, this is a render in v.9, this is a render in v10 alpha, I'm telling you, look - the procedurals are broken, look at the colors!" "I don't see the problem..."

Think I'm exaggerating? I wish.

Over and out.

ruscler
02-06-2003, 08:06 AM
I am not trying to be funny!

not into name calling, but I consider Dfaris to be reputable in the Hash involvement. If he feels like he been robbed, like I do and if I didn't feel robbed, I would still respect his opinion. If you want to kissup to martin, then thats fine but dont be selling out those with valid complaints. We all had enough of the bully tactics!

I am venting cause of its love and hate relationship with AM. I really do care if Hash can fix the software, and listen to us. He thinks its okay to sell us a version that is crap, and says its only $99 and that makes it okay with him. I think its wrong business policy.

I would like to see Martin redeem the V9.5 that he knew was crap and give us Version 10 and a promise to do better and not go on to the next version till he makes its a finish project. I would even be willing to pay the $99 subscription even if its still the same version but they kept working out most of the bugs.

I have v9.5 but still use V8.5p++, because its what I have thats works the best. I had bought V10 but after being burned with v9.5 I saw this as a flash back of repeating once more. At this point I dont see a reason to continue this untill Martin decide to listen, and fix it. He admit making a bad software, and up to him to fix it, or make it right with the consumer. If it takes a lawsuit for him to take notice, then so be it. Its not a pretty road to take, but he has done nothing as of yet for those who bought V9.5

antithesis
02-06-2003, 08:47 AM
It's amazing how Martin's statements have managed to both appease or enrage people, and I think, in some ways, it does come down to how much you read into them. I'm sure he agonized a-plenty over whether to 'publicly admit' the shortcomings of v9, and probably chose to include that bit in the spirit of honesty. I do appreciate the admission.
In the end though, I have to respectfully but emphatically disagree that the solution to the v9 problems is for everyone to just shut up and buy v10. Everyone who bought A:M 2002, and especially those who bought it at $299 instead of as a $99 upgrade, paid for -- and should be entitled to -- a fully useable and functional application. They/we did NOT pay for "however much we manage to get done before it's time for you to pay for a new version". I very much appreciate Hash's continued efforts in improving each version, often issuing updates on a weekly basis, but all this effort kind of goes out the window when it ceases before the job is done, simply because of the calendar date. Ultimately, the program users are able to run from the 2002 CD has remaining issues, and now will never be worked on further because --joy of joys-- version 10 is here, and those users are now expected to pay again on blind faith in the hopes of receiving a more functional application.
I realize the definition of "functional" can get pretty subjective, and that A:M v9 might run flawlessly if you only do certain things in a certain way, have a properly blessed system configuration, or perhaps are wearing your lucky socks. I also realize that A:M's cost is relatively low, but I don't agree that this excuses it from any complaints regarding stability or functionality. If you pay for shareware or beta apps, you know in advance what you're getting...A:M is advertised and sold as a commercial product that's "competetive with higher-priced software". Well, that's a subjective statement also.
I think the **Subscription cycle** is the largest contributor to user frustrations, both existing and potential. I understand that there is a constant clamor for new features, but I think most people would be more inclined to wait and pay for features in a new version if they knew the version they already bought would work properly enough that they could continue to use the old version if they wanted. Upgrading should always be an option rather than a mandate -- it should be driven by the incentive of enhancements, not by the need to get a version that you hope will work right. Obviously, the only advantage to the Subscription system is Hash's advantage. There is no advantage for the user, and with v9 the Subscription model slapped a lot of people across the face and told them to like it. Is there any question as to whether anyone has the right to feel cheated by this? -- or to wonder if the next version they buy might still have a few show-stopping bugs left in it when December happens to roll around and it's time to stop fixing it and start selling the next year's CD?
I'm not supporting any assertions that A:M is useless software, or that Hash Inc is an Evil company :rolleyes: My point is that the subscription model itself is the biggest reason we're hearing either of these flavors of "venting". Some of us would genuinely love, as Martin wishes, to "forget all about v9" and partake in the wonders of v10 and beyond. It's just hard to find any real assurance that the cycle won't continue to repeat itself. After all, that's what cycles do.

somlor
02-06-2003, 09:17 AM
I've been randomly following some of these Hash threads and let me say first off that I've never used Hash and I admit to being very biased toward polygon/SubD modeling. I just needed to throw in my two cents though after reading Martin's letter. This guy sounds like a serious ass to me. Sorry but that letter read like he is a High School principal trying to curb adolescents from "talking back". He either avoided the issues entirely or addressed them like a politician with a hangover speaking informally to his secretary.

The letter also subtly wreaks of desperation. Considering you can download wings3d and quickly learn an actual production worthy approach to modeling for free, he has every reason to be.

[/twoCents]

(s)

My Fault
02-06-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by somlor
The letter also subtly wreaks of desperation. Considering you can download wings3d and quickly learn an actual production worthy approach to modeling for free, he has every reason to be.
[/twoCents]
(s)

But Wings3d, as stunningly good of a modeler as it is becoming, ends at modeling. Boy I wish Martin would give in and let sub-d's become part of the AM equation. Howard's mdl export and awalasek's obj plug-in let you import Wings models (kind of) in to AM, but it's not the same.

Nurb'd
02-06-2003, 11:29 AM
Wings 3d

Blender

= free

Commiekeebler
02-06-2003, 12:19 PM
Here's something to think about, guys.

9.51e, the last update for version 9, came out in mid November.

BUT!

If memory serves me correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong) the development of version 10 went its own, separate way since mid-July. Bugs that would be reported for version 9 by the userbase would be addressed and fixed in version 10 but NOT ALWAYS in version 9. Some were purposefully omitted, like the transparency miscalculation bug ("yeah we know about it, it's fixed in version 10, thanks for reporting"). Excuse me?

Because of this, we, the end users had to switch back and forth between version 9 for modeling/animation and version 10 for rendering (despite its poor stability at the time - it was an alpha first, then beta). Now that the version 10's beta has expired, Hash has us exactly where it wants us: needing a fix.

So, for half a year, we keep contributing to the process, free of charge (in fact, actually paying for the privilege of being Hash's beta testers), then get the shaft at the end: oops your beta runs out, time to upgrade if you want to see a better renderer.

Merry Christmas everybody.

So, no, I don't feel robbed. I feel violated.

Martin needs to learn the concept of vaseline.

johnathan
02-06-2003, 12:57 PM
martin's basic position of "version 9 sucked, thanks for the money! version 10 is better, so pay again" is a symptom of the business model he's using: subscriptions.

i'm sure he sees it this way: when you send in your money to hash, you're not buying a product... you're subsidizing his company, and in return you get a steady stream of code for a finite period of time. that's all.

think of us as the perverts in a coin activated peep show: you put your quarters in, and the shutter goes up, and you see the nekkid dancing lady. if yer times up, it doesn't matter if she's stopped dancing or not... you need to put more quarters in, or the shutter stays down.

martin has just told me that if i want to continue to develop as a 3d modeler and animator, i need to keep looking for another ap.

no news here.

hoochoochoochoo
02-06-2003, 12:59 PM
quote:
"Because of this, we, the end users had to switch back and forth between version 9 for modeling/animation and version 10 for rendering (despite its poor stability at the time - it was an alpha first, then beta). Now that the version 10's beta has expired, Hash has us exactly where it wants us: needing a fix."

To Martins and Hash's defence - no one forced anyone to install the alpha or the beta :hmm:

I for one still want to carry on using the software despite my misgivings about things like creasing and A-A spoken about on the other threads.

I actually appreciated Martins response and his admitting that version 9 was/is a bitch. :twisted: yes relationships and expressions actually added to the instability but there was enough clamour on the mailing list for me not to buy into version9 when it first came out.
Interestingly, does that mean they will take them out or get them working properly with the next version? One great thing about this forum is that we now know AM is listening, reading and "hearing".:beer:

johnathan
02-06-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by hoochoochoochoo
quote:
... One great thing about this forum is that we now know AM is listening, reading and "hearing"

... and not changing their skewed attitude the least little bit. :hmm:

[spo]
02-06-2003, 02:51 PM
" I personally have to agree with Martain. Hash has created a unique thing that people seem to take for granted and in fact often give the developers a hard time. Then wonder why they are short, or curt with them on a forum.
"
/rant

first I have to say this isn't directed at any one person but I'll direct it to "AM zealot"

Dear AM zealot,

Cry me a fricken river.

boo fricken hoo for martin. Martin is a pompous ass. he talks and talks and talks about how much he loves his userbase and how the community loves him and how he's dedicated.

the problem with the company is they have no artistry to their company. they have no artists on staff, it seems honestly they abhor artists.

good artists can take criticism, even to the level of "you suck". if someone says "you suck", but can't back it up, screw them.

but when they say "you suck because _______" you have to listen to them and weigh what they say. the problem is they have a select group of people they have decided to listen to. I used this program from version 1.48 to version 8.5Lk54.98rb25

I'm not a pro 3d artist, but I am a producer of media. 3d wasn't my thing but I enjoyed it as a hobby, I personally am of the opinion that ALL 3d app suck currently. they all have a few glowing aspects, but they all suck. some have crappy renderers, some have crappy animation tools, some have bewildering interfaces. they all suck, no question.

but do they all fail to deliver on what they promise?

NO! only pixels3d and hash, inc have failed to deliver at the level I have witnessed. both companies charge for a product, but never deliver a finished version. both companies use obscure file formats out of sheer obstinance.

both programs have a rabid fanboy-base.

what I want to say to all of the hash zealots is this:

almost all of us that are pissed off were once as rabid as you....shedding tears for poor martin and steve, defending their actions, saying anything we needed to to try to make people believe that "if you have a problem, it's your problem, they are cool to me!" or "it must be your machine, it works great here"

well..guess what. they were real cool to me at one point. I was never rude to them. I always documented my bugs. I did everything you think I didn't to get help.

so $^%$%^ you if you think for some reason you are special. you won't be one day and you'll be on the other side of the fence bitching with the rest of us.

their current behavior isn't new. version 7.1 is the last version I was able to use at any level. I have a mixture of PC's and macs, and the only version of AM 8 that worked solidly was version 8.01jsdksa or something along those lines. I called steve and chatted with him, and he firmly responded that 8.5 was the current version, and they wouldn't be supporting older version.

"but....8.5 doesn't work on my machines"

says I

"works fine here"

says steve.

I try back and forth to get them to fix my problems (at the time, scrubbing was broken on both platforms, and openGL was broken on the mac)

"works fine here, I don't see the problem" is all I could get.

"there must be an issue with your machine"

was the next level of support.

I had 2 other people submit my bugs, and STILL they refused to look at it.

3 months later I see the bug fixed with Jeff Bunker of avalanche's name on it.

bite me if you think hash listens. they listen when they feel like it. just because YOU haven't experienced it doesn't mean

1) I did anything to deserve that treatment
2) the treatment doesn't happen.
3) because am worksfin for you, it works for everyone else

so, I used AM since it's first PC version (playmation)

and I haven't used a version that felt finished since version 2. version 7 ALMOST got there, but not quite.

I stuck with it out of the same love of the idea of the app...but it's a dysfunctional relationship, and as much as you love the app you end up feelling like your soul's been sucked harder than your d***

so, anyway. bite me. you're not better than me, but I imagine hash treats you as if you are if you still like them. so, enjoy it while it lasts, and let me know when you need some help picking a new app because hash decided to stop listening to YOU.

/rant

jdates
02-06-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by [spo]
" I personally have to agree with Martain. Hash has created a unique thing that people seem to take for granted and in fact often give the developers a hard time. Then wonder why they are short, or curt with them on a forum.
"
/rant

first I have to say this isn't directed at any one person but I'll direct it to "AM zealot"


Well since I said this statement I must be the AM zealot.

*scoff* Hardly.
I just don't see the point of bashing them, then wondering why they don't bow to your demands.


Dear AM zealot,
Cry me a fricken river.

boo fricken hoo for martin. Martin is a pompous ass. he talks and talks and talks about how much he loves his userbase and how the community loves him and how he's dedicated.



Well thank God you're hear to set those who you are speaking to, straight! Those you speak to, are in "awe" of your personal belief that "Martin is a pompous ass". *scoff*



the problem with the company is they have no artistry to their company. they have no artists on staff, it seems honestly they abhor artists.

good artists can take criticism, even to the level of "you suck". if someone says "you suck", but can't back it up, screw them.



*LOL* Dude, in one paragraph you have proven my point. Claiming if someone says "you suck" then screw them. Yet I suppose calling someone a "Pompous ass" is ok?
Can I get an approved list of what I can and cannot say please?


NO! only pixels3d and hash, inc have failed to deliver at the level I have witnessed. both companies charge for a product, but never deliver a finished version. both companies use obscure file formats out of sheer obstinance.

both programs have a rabid fanboy-base.


That's interesting you should mention Pixels3D.
That both companies you sited are ultra-small companies. With unique proprietary technology. Andrew Bryant is a gifted programmer who brought the Mac software that they didn't have before LW moved there. The guys at Hash were making 3D software before the big companies decided to make it available for "desktop" users.

New technology is going to be flawed. Especially when it's done on a low budget. Hash has built a software app that is not like the other paridigms of the "standards". So you'll have some bumps along the way.

But you think pointing the finger and name calling will make them come around to your side, you're shiznit out of luck my friend.
Vent all you want, then go use Lightwave.



what I want to say to all of the hash zealots is this:

almost all of us that are pissed off were once as rabid as you....shedding tears for poor martin and steve, defending their actions, saying anything we needed to to try to make people believe that "if you have a problem, it's your problem, they are cool to me!" or "it must be your machine, it works great here"


LOL, shedding tears? Ha. That's cute. But as I look around, it IS your problem. Hash IS cool to me! It DOES work great here! So what do you want me to say? It doesnt?
People like Victor Navone, Ed Catmul don't seem to have a problem. I myself, am doing 7 minutes of CG with it!
I guess because I dipolomatic with the programmers, and am happy with the results, I'm a zealot!?

Ok then.


well..guess what. they were real cool to me at one point. I was never rude to them. I always documented my bugs. I did everything you think I didn't to get help.


Hmm. You did? and they just gave you the bird? Doubtful.
What was your problem that you didn't get help? How did you present it. Just by this post alone, I have no doubt you emailed steve, and bitched him out because you had a bug.

Diplomacy is lost on the majority apparently.


so $^%$%^ you if you think for some reason you are special. you won't be one day and you'll be on the other side of the fence bitching with the rest of us.


VERY Deplomatic indeed.


"but....8.5 doesn't work on my machines"
says I
"works fine here"
says steve.
I try back and forth to get them to fix my problems (at the time, scrubbing was broken on both platforms, and openGL was broken on the mac)
"works fine here, I don't see the problem" is all I could get.
"there must be an issue with your machine"
was the next level of support.
I had 2 other people submit my bugs, and STILL they refused to look at it.
3 months later I see the bug fixed with Jeff Bunker of avalanche's name on it.


This is the biggest complaint everyone has with support.
What do you expect them to do? If it DOES work there? I've experienced it many times myself. I will sit on the phone and walk them through a crash... Well it doesn't crash on thier machines. So then what? How do you expect them to debug it?

Well the answer is usually "more data".

Ask for a debugging version of the software.
Try to narrow down the problem's cause.

Oh sure, I know you don't want to do all this. You want them to just magically fix your problem even though it is not apparent on thier end. Of course.



bite me if you think hash listens. they listen when they feel like it. just because YOU haven't experienced it doesn't mean...

so, I used AM since it's first PC version (playmation)


Yeah, I'm sure Hash just listens when "they feel like it" you're probably right. *scoff* You're profound.

I like that you mention that you've used A:M since Playmation. What does that mean? You've obviously been upset with them for a long time!??!


so, anyway. bite me. you're not better than me, but I imagine hash treats you as if you are if you still like them. so, enjoy it while it lasts, and let me know when you need some help picking a new app because hash decided to stop listening to YOU.

/rant


Bite you? Very nice.
Better than you? I wouldn't have claimed that BEFORE reading this post. Now I don't know.. you sound pretty ignorant.

As for your advice on enjoying it.. I will. But don't think I would ask your advice on ANYTHING related to 3D if I needed help.
You'd probably call me a pompous ass.

I'm done with this thread. I know that the bitching and complaining will continue. While you're busy doing all that, I'll be working with A:M.:)

jdates

howardt
02-06-2003, 04:44 PM
My Fault wrote:
But Wings3d, as stunningly good of a modeler as it is becoming, ends at modeling. Boy I wish Martin would give in and let sub-d's become part of the AM equation. Howard's mdl export and awalasek's obj plug-in let you import Wings models (kind of) in to AM, but it's not the same.

I was thinking about this just last night. I agree with this statement - that Hash should seriously consider sub-d's. Having tried hard to make good geometry creation plugins and the above mentioned mdl exporter, I've decided it is somewhere between hard and impossible to do a good job. The Hash patch model is just too different from what everyone else uses. The rules for valid patches, for example, make it very hard for a program to avoid making internal patches, and also cause complications when you want to make valid 3 or 4 point patches (in those cases where using just one closed spline would be the easiest thing for a program to do).

The other thing about the Hash spline/patch method that deserves attention is the difficulty of making uncreased models. Sure, it's easy when you can use all quads with corners formed by splines crossing in the approved X pattern. But you can't make a face, say, without deviating from that somewhat. Look at all the miserable 'first faces' made in A:M. As a program aspiring to be someone's first 3d program, it's too bad that this discouraging aspect hits a new user so soon. One could muse that it is the strength of Hash splines in one area (that the points you make actually lie on the surfaces you construct) is responsible for this weakness in another area. Or maybe not. I don't know.

Still, if you live exclusively in Hash's world, the spline and patch model is workable, and even has some advantages over sub-d's. Hash's first priority should be a rock-solid piece of code, not a paradigm shift.

jdates
02-06-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by dfaris
jdates:

It might work if you are doing toon rendering or something but if you try and use all the other stuff its crap and you know it.

Toon rendering? I've never even used the toon renderer.
I'm talking the multi-pass renderer. It's pretty fricking nice.
Real motion blur, Moblur'd shadows (Maya can't even do that), reflections, refractions... Displacements, bumps..

I've had great results with it.

jdates

ruscler
02-06-2003, 05:01 PM
Okay my bad thinking that day of the dead was in toon, however you have to admit that your animation really doesn't challenge the program, I dont see any joint deformation from your skeleton figure, something that any other program could do. The few that push the program to its limits were from eggington's studio. I think that what Dfaris is trying to make a point. Victor Navone and Jeff Lew both had a very simple character to work with, which to me reveal that the program has serious limits to do the same thing that the higher end program can do. Decal mapping and toon stuff sort of look alike depending on the quality of the map. So I guess I was wrong on the toon render.

Wegg
02-06-2003, 05:02 PM
Jeff, none of the people on the list HAVE net-render. Hash doesn't advertise it, document it or even acknowledge it's existence anywhere in their literature. Yes Multipass rendering works and solves problems with the renderer. At an EXTREME cost of render speed. But for the average user that pops in their AM cd. There is just no way to get decent results. Hence people's wild ignorant speculations on how you "Don't have problems."

jdates
02-06-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Wegg
Jeff, none of the people on the list HAVE net-render. Hash doesn't advertise it, document it or even acknowledge it's existence anywhere in their literature. Yes Multipass rendering works and solves problems with the renderer. At an EXTREME cost of render speed. But for the average user that pops in their AM cd. There is just no way to get decent results. Hence people's wild ignorant speculations on how you "Don't have problems."

Oh yeah... bring up a good point why don't you?

Yes, the single pass renderer qaulity blows. *Laugh* I don't have any problems because I don't use it!

:D

jdates

[spo]
02-06-2003, 05:52 PM
"Well since I said this statement I must be the AM zealot.

*scoff* Hardly.
I just don't see the point of bashing them, then wondering why they don't bow to your demands. "


actually *scoff* you were just the random member of the mindless fold I singled out to quote, you're really not as important to ANYONE as you think you are, Jeff *scoff* *scoff* you're the creative director at Reel FX, I'm the creative director somewhere else, in the end both of our sh** stinks and we're equally insignificant.

the fact that you just arrogantly point at my post and say "because you're responding this way, I'll ASSUME you act this way all the time."

do you always scoff at everyone you disagree with? *scoff*

so, with the personal attacks out of the way *scoff* let me adress the few points you made that weren't personal attacks.


" *LOL* Dude, in one paragraph you have proven my point. Claiming if someone says "you suck" then screw them. Yet I suppose calling someone a "Pompous ass" is ok?"

all one has to do is read a single martin's minutes about the industry to see he's a pompous ass, and quite frankly I hardly doubt he would deny it. f%@# it, for that matter /I'M/ a pompous ass if it makes you feel any better. I don't care, it's just words. but that's honestly beside the point. the point is, if you had read it and processed rather than reacting as you go, you'd see I /DID/ backup my reasons for thinking he's a pompous ass.


"LOL, shedding tears? Ha. That's cute. But as I look around, it IS your problem. Hash IS cool to me! It DOES work great here! So what do you want me to say? It doesnt?"

bollucks! I've been in chat rooms where you were bitching as much as the next person about the problems you were having. I can probably come up with 15 people that could verify you've bitched and moaned about it as much as the next one. the only difference is you bend over and take it and tell everyone else to do the same. instead of talking to anyone else you stroke your own ego about your "personal builds" and "special patches" they made for you. most people don't get that kind of treatment. I imagine because you've made several of their graphics they treat you differently.

"Andrew Bryant is a gifted programmer who brought the Mac software that they didn't have before LW moved there."

yeah..completely unavailable. unless you count electric image, form-z (I know, just a modeler!)

or strata
or infini-d
or sculpt


"The guys at Hash were making 3D software before the big companies decided to make it available for "desktop" users.

yeah..I was there. don't get me wrong their INTENTION is great. they weren't the only ones doing it though. there was great promise in a host of other apps, most of which were actually fairly stable (but NOBODY does character animation like AM...when it works that is)

"New technology is going to be flawed. Especially when it's done on a low budget. Hash has built a software app that is not like the other paridigms of the "standards". So you'll have some bumps along the way."

what new technology does hash use? the same patches they've used since apprentice?

the MFC library set so old microsoft doesn't even acknowledge it anymore on their site?

the polygon tesselation renderer they replaced the patch rendering raytracer from the past?

"But you think pointing the finger and name calling will make them come around to your side, you're shiznit out of luck my friend."

I already said I don't think that will get you anywhere (you'd know that if you read my post instead of just reacting to it). I was actually addressing AM zealots just now, not hash. there's a difference. I've never been anything but civil with them. all you zealots can bite me though *scoff* *scoff*


What do you expect them to do? If it DOES work there? ....

they could start by actually RESPONDING to bug reports....they don't respond if you aren't on "the list" of hash's personal butt kissers. but you wouldn't know that, since you're ON that list.

Well the answer is usually "more data".

Ask for a debugging version of the software.
Try to narrow down the problem's cause.

I suppose I could ask for a "make cool model" button too while I'm at it. *scoff*

once again, you fail to see your special treatment. they don't even answer my e-mails..how am I going to get a "debugging version?"

"Oh sure, I know you don't want to do all this. You want them to just magically fix your problem even though it is not apparent on thier end. Of course."

you know this how? reading my mind? once again, if you'd read my post you'd see I DID submit the data, and had several others verify the bug. the problem was steve doesn't KNOW HOW TO USE THE SOFTWARE, therefore couldn't reproduce the bugs. they found the bug when Jeff Bunker reported it...because..once again, he's on the hash A-List.

*scoff* *scoff*

"I guess because I dipolomatic with the programmers, and am happy with the results, I'm a zealot!? "

no, you're a zealot because your arrogance and self centeredness makes it impossible to believe anyone else could possibly have a problem if YOU don't.

I like that you mention that you've used A:M since Playmation. What does that mean? You've obviously been upset with them for a long time!??!

it means I've been their target demographic for a long time. I'm a hobbyist. I like to have fun with my hobbies. 3d was fun for a long time, and AM was fun for a long time. up until version 5's major rewrite, AM was FUN. sure it was buggy, but you really could avoid the bugs back then if you wanted.

it also means I've been around a while, and I'm not a newbie that should just be tossed aside idly. I wrote some of the original materials that were packaged with AM. I wrote some of the oldest tutorials (that faded into obscurity long ago). my point in saying that was that I TOO have a love for AM still. it was a great, fun app. in fact, since I've stopped using AM I haven't done any 3d at all. I switched to music because, frankly, the software for music WORKS. i know what to expect, and it works the way I think it should. I have a new hobby now, but one day want to do 3d again.

I should mention music software is extremely complex mathematically as well, and can grind a system to a halt as easily as a 3d render, but I don't get a fraction of the crashes of AM on even the most basic shareware packages. Propellerheads sells their full audio production package (that rivals competitors costing much more!!!!.....sound familiar?) for just 300 bucks (sound familiar?) the difference is they beta test their point releases for 6 months before releasing it. when you get a bug patch, that's all it is. a bug patch. no new functions, no new bells and whisltes, just "what you read on the box"

I'm tired of the "they are a small shop" line. there are plenty of other small companies that manage to crank out affordable software with superior quality.

"As for your advice on enjoying it.. I will. But don't think I would ask your advice on ANYTHING related to 3D if I needed help.
You'd probably call me a pompous ass.

I only point out a person's flaws if they aren't readily apparent. everyone already knows you're a pompous ass, no need repeating it.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by [spo]
it also means I've been around a while, and I'm not a newbie that should just be tossed aside idly

You were tossed aside because of your attitude. Maybe if you started acting with some semblance of decorum people would stop marginalizing you.

[spo]
02-06-2003, 06:13 PM
so you work for hash? I'm assuming you do, otherwise you'd have no way of knowing how I talked to hash. I stated before and I'll state one last time. I WAS ALWAYS CIVIL WITH HASH.

and when I spoke of being someone "not to toss aside idly" I was refering to a large group of people, not just myself.

read my posts ya goobers. it's YOU, the mindless defenders of Hash that I don't respect. and I used to be one of you, so I'm justified.


a wise man once said:

http://www.3d-geeks.com/spo/arguing.jpg

My Fault
02-06-2003, 06:18 PM
So you are saying that when you spoke to Hash you didn't act like you are acting here? I haven't seen you act like an adult yet so I just figured this was your normal way of dealing with the outside world. I do appreciate you taking the time out to call us "goobers" and grabbing that pic. Maybe there is hope for you yet. :thumbsup:

johnathan
02-06-2003, 06:30 PM
spo may be a pompous ass and obnoxious to boot, but he's been pretty dead on so far. it seems the zelots are too busy bashing him to actually consider his arguments.

i do find it curious that martin's email hasn't made it to the animaster list or his website. i wonder what the faithful would say to his dismissal of v9.5.

what's stopping him from saying the same thing about v10 come next january?

-jon

no0ne
02-06-2003, 07:02 PM
Hans: "i have the right to say what i want, i might even start rantin"

Heinz: "n' i have the right to ignore if ya do so" :airguitar

really did enjoy readin martin's message

stupid me has no more to say :beer:

jdates
02-06-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by johnathan
spo may be a pompous ass and obnoxious to boot, but he's been pretty dead on so far. it seems the zelots are too busy bashing him to actually consider his arguments.


Bah. "pretty dead on so far?" He's whining like baby.

Spo this one goes out to you and yours:

http://www.kungfukoi.com/misc/stfu.jpg

It's to bad you have so much problems. But I think you've proven my point as to why Hash hasn't helped you.

You're a jerk.

jdates.

johnathan
02-06-2003, 07:40 PM
i wish that spo was the only one that was ignored and abused by hash. then the rest of us not on the short list would be respected as well.

-jon

i guess this is another thread that has be reduced to infantile name calling. at least it's not my fault this time! :)

Hookflash
02-06-2003, 07:43 PM
jdates: Well, what about the rest of us? Why hasn't Hash helped me? Why did 99.99% of my bug-reports go unacknowledged unless I badgered them to respond? Do you really think it's acceptable for a company that's so dependant on it's users (lets face it, we worked for them... we were beta testers, even with releases!) to charge me $300 for software they *admit* was crap, and then expect another $100 from me to upgrade to a supposedly more usable version? I could get a decent 19in monitor, or a good graphics card for $300... This is not an insignificant amount of money just because other companies are charging more. Hell, my car cost less (ok, it's not a great car... but at least it works!). In spite of this, I'd be willing to pay much more than $300 if they'd hire some *good* programmers and release a stable, full-featured product.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Hookflash
Hell, my car cost less (ok, it's not a great car... but at least it works!).

Does your car have a "creasing" issue? :beer:

[spo]
02-06-2003, 07:54 PM
ooh....a warm cup of STFU!

you've done a great job of name calling and getting all worked up to fight the good fight, but you never really adressed anything I said.

maybe you just couldn't see past the blinding rage that someone would DARE speak of lord Hash with anything but praise.

you make my point better than anything else I could say...so......

cheers...and thanks for the mug, mate!

:beer:

Hookflash
02-06-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
Does your car have a "creasing" issue? :beer:

Yeah, and Path Constraints aren't working properly either;)

My Fault
02-06-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Hookflash
Yeah, and Path Constraints aren't working properly either;)

Ack, you made me spew my coffee! :bounce:

amsmf
02-06-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
Ack, you made me spew my coffee! :bounce:

Sounds like a driver issue to me.:shrug:

John Keates
02-06-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by amsmf
Sounds like a driver issue to me.:shrug:

If you have a crash because the brake feature doesn't work then don't don't bother coplaining to the man you baught it off because he will just say that it was your fault.

[spo]
02-06-2003, 08:53 PM
Ack, you made me spew my coffee!


nobody MADE you upgrade to coffee 10.5 did they?

it's users like you that really tick me off...I mean, I used coffee 10.5 just this morning, and it didn't spew out of MY mouth. have you tried rebuilding your mouth? how about a fresh install of teeth? and di you re-calibrate your lips?

no?

I mean, if you guys aren't going to go the extra mile..to help debug coffee 10.5...you have no right to moan.

coffee is an extremely calculation intensive product, I mean, if it's going into a mouth that isn't calibrated for it..it's just gonna spew everywhere.

My Fault
02-06-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by [spo]
Ack, you made me spew my coffee!


nobody MADE you upgrade to coffee 10.5 did they?

it's users like you that really tick me off...I mean, I used coffee 10.5 just this morning, and it didn't spew out of MY mouth. have you tried rebuilding your mouth? how about a fresh install of teeth? and di you re-calibrate your lips?

no?

I mean, if you guys aren't going to go the extra mile..to help debug coffee 10.5...you have no right to moan.

coffee is an extremely calculation intensive product, I mean, if it's going into a mouth that isn't calibrated for it..it's just gonna spew everywhere.

Actually I crossgraded from Tea 4.5. It just wasn't doing enough for me. I know the makers of Coffee 10.5 also have another app called Jolt, but it is currently in beta.

:beer:

Kevin Sanderson
02-06-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Wegg
Jeff, none of the people on the list HAVE net-render. Hash doesn't advertise it, document it or even acknowledge it's existence anywhere in their literature.

Wegg, Well, a few of us do. They only mention it on the flier they send out for upgrades and in the update pages that Will posts.
But, you are correct, they don't really seem to push it or its advantages. Seems like it pops up from time to time on the list and then a small flurry of questions and inquiries about configuration and then it dies down, especially this past year. I remember emailing a couple people who hadn't downloaded the help file and explained to them how to set it up and get it going.
Seems the questions always hit on a Saturday or Sunday!

I have it simply because i had the original DOS NetRender in v2 which I paid $695 for and to feel like I was keeping the package's full potential, I upgraded it every year since, so I would have it when useful. I've used it on occasion on a few of my machines (yes, my apartment looks like a warehouse :shrug: )
It comes in handy from time to time.

Kevin

jdates
02-06-2003, 09:32 PM
ooh....a warm cup of STFU!

you've done a great job of name calling and getting all worked up to fight the good fight, but you never really adressed anything I said.


Hmm.. I remember you actually started your first post with the witty "rant /rant" tags. Then started to bash hash under the guise of attacking the "zealots". You are the one who turned the semi-objective discussion into a soapbox of "why those who like hash, suck".

I'm just playing your game here.
You set the tone my friend.

As for addressing anything you've said.
Frankly, I was attempting to bring light to the point that when you attack Hash, (and calling Martain a pompous ass is an attack), you're not helping your cause. Even some of your meager mentioning of skewed valid points are obscured by your offensive tone and sarcastic demeanour.

Whining about your problems may make you feel better, but they won't get solved any faster. Especially if you alienate those who can help you. Burning bridges then trying to cross, not the best idea.


maybe you just couldn't see past the blinding rage that someone would DARE speak of lord Hash with anything but praise.


:rolleyes: Yes, I am in a blinding rage.... :rolleyes:
You can see right through me. It's funny to me that you accuse ME of being in the rage. I just wanted you to STFU. :twisted:

you make my point better than anything else I could say...so......
cheers...and thanks for the mug, mate!


Yeah, I must be crazy.
Anytime you need me to give you a mug of STFU just ask!
:D

*scoff* *boop* etc...

johnathan
02-06-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by jdates
I'm done with this thread. I know that the bitching and complaining will continue. While you're busy doing all that, I'll be working with A:M.:)


waiting patiently.... you've been repeating yourself for a while now, without disproving any of points raised by this thread.

1) martin *is* a pompous ass.

2) asking nicely or ranting about bugs both result in the same thing for the vast majority of a:m users: silence or abuse from hash.

3) hash asks for a yearly tithe, but delivers broken features and broken promises.

4) sleep is a poor substitute for caffeine.

-jon

[spo]
02-06-2003, 09:51 PM
Whining about your problems may make you feel better, but they won't get solved any faster. Especially if you alienate those who can help you. Burning bridges then trying to cross, not the best idea.

I don't need to use people as bridges, I can get what I need without walking over other people.

I quit dealing with hash 3 "subscription periods" ago, but eerily they haven't released a stable version since then. or maybe they have...maybe they released a few stable internal builds that only you and the 4 other people that love it use.

since that time I've moved on...but when I heard hash might be reading this, I took my opportunity to get in a dig at them, and jerks like yourself who have Hash convinced it's the users not the product that is flawed.

you're right. I /AM/ a jerk. but only to folks that deserve it.

try this. make a hotmail account. make an alias. don't tell them who you are. try to get the same support you get when they know your name.

you won't.

jdates
02-06-2003, 10:21 PM
waiting patiently.... you've been repeating yourself for a while now, without disproving any of points raised by this thread.


Yeah I know I said I would ditch. But each post is more zany then the next.

Without disproving? I never intended to sit down and baby the offended into feeling better. As you've said, I've made myself clear many times. But if it'll help you sleep at night and make you feel warm and cozy allow me to comment.


1) martin *is* a pompous ass.


This is a subjective "anti-hash" comment. The fact you believe this is fine. Disprove it? I've talked with Martain many times in person, and he's been nothing but personable, intellegent, and wacky. I guess he only likes me then. *scoff*
I can yield to the fact he doesn't bow to your demands makes him pompous. While the fact you disagree with how he's running his company makes him an Ass. :shrug:


2) asking nicely or ranting about bugs both result in the same thing for the vast majority of a:m users: silence or abuse from hash.


What is the reason the vast majority agrees on? That Hash is out to screw you? Thats one hell of a business plan.
What do you want to happen when you turn in a bug? A ticker parade? They log it, and it gets fixed. The fact they release bug fixes, PROVES the bugs get fixed. Of course NONE of the issue is with the user. EVERY user is perfect, and it's ALWAYS the softwares fault. :rolleyes: The programmers get a letter saying this feature is broke, and demand it fixed. No data, or an attempt at helping reach a solution. Just a demand to have it fixed. I can see why they don't reply. When the letters get ugly, I can see why they abuse a user.


3) hash asks for a yearly tithe, but delivers broken features and broken promises.


Now who the heck is forcing you to upgrade? It's not like you don't get to try before you buy? If the user is unhappy they should not use it. There are lots of other programs that don't hurt feelings.

I've never said that A:M doesn't have it's problems. But you guys act like they don't ever intend on fixing the problems. Then there is the fact that Hash has thier own agenda, and perhaps don't WANT to fix what users percieve as a problem.

johnathan
02-07-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by jdates
I can yield to the fact he doesn't bow to your demands makes him pompous. While the fact you disagree with how he's running his company makes him an Ass.

who can read his minutes and not agree with me? http://www.hash.com/MartinsMinutes/

What is the reason the vast majority agrees on? That Hash is out to screw you? Thats one hell of a business plan.
What do you want to happen when you turn in a bug? A ticker parade? They log it, and it gets fixed.

the reason isn't important, but the results are undeniable: a bug ridden application and rabid denials otherwise. some get fixed, but only before others are created.

Now who the heck is forcing you to upgrade? It's not like you don't get to try before you buy? If the user is unhappy they should not use it.

And those who bought a program that has never worked as promised? a great many people seem to continually upgrade in the hopes of eventually getting their monies worth. i'm tired of being abused, but i've paid for v10. let's hope miracles still happen in the 21st century.

-jon

JMulder
02-07-2003, 12:41 PM
While all this picking apart each others' arguments is fun, I have to say that I've chosen to leave Animation:Master. When Martin wrote his first email to the list after all this started, he used inappropriate language for what should have been a business communication.

Martin, you lost me at 'mofo':shame:

-Jim

Raist3d
02-08-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by jdates
waiting patiently.... you've been repeating yourself for a while now, without disproving any of points raised by this thread.


[stuff del]

I've never said that A:M doesn't have it's problems. But you guys act like they don't ever intend on fixing the problems. Then there is the fact that Hash has thier own agenda, and perhaps don't WANT to fix what users percieve as a problem.

This is ridiculous. The reason people act this way is because many with heavy involvement with the program have not seen progress in key areas since version what...?

Undo has been broken for me since the day I bought 7.xx You would expect that to be solved by now. And them not WANTing to fix what users perceive as a problem is a *MAJOR* problem for any company that wants to grow, or be taken seriously.

Anyway, I assuming that...

dfaris
02-08-2003, 04:30 AM
Well it's good to see Hash doing something lets hope it works the way they say it will.

I for one will not use AM untill I see these issues fixed and the software
works 98% the way they say it should. I'm also still waiting to hear what martin is going to do for the people that have a broken app in V9.

Till this is done I can not tell anyone to get AM and use it for there first app I will have to point them in a different direction.

ruscler
02-08-2003, 05:32 AM
I agree, and I am not paying for an upgrade until hash address the issue of compensation for those that bought a "bitch" version V9.5
I do beleive that V10.5 may be better, I find it hard to believe that they will turn a deaf ear to all the user that want a working version. But untill I hear it from them, and I haven't yet heard anything in a way of redemption, or compensation.

I cannot recommend Hash, and I have been told that several 3D reviews publication are also watching this site for any further development including Ron Diamond of AWN. They and I am sure that many others are watching.

Commiekeebler
02-11-2003, 10:17 AM
Rusc: my sentiments exactly. No more money for Hash 'til they solve the 'v9.51e bitching problem'. Enough (bad coding) is enough! Dead serious.

Certainly, a year or two from now, they might have something good going - but I ain't buying it - I've got 99 valid reasons not to. Hell hath no fury like a customer scorned... or some such.

Commiekeebler
02-11-2003, 04:55 PM
Whatever happened to the idea of class action suit? Where do I sign up, Dave?

I think we might have a case here, with all the broken promises and what not.

Personally, I'd like to see the subscription extended for a full, non-timed current v10 to all 9.51e owners, with no strings attached (such as presenting your 'betatesting' case to Steve) - because in Martin's own words, we've got a "bitch" of an app for the last 99 bucks handed over to Hash Inc. We, as your customers, deserve better than that.

If we like this new and improved app after trying it out, then Hash may try to sell us their new subscription plan (along with better customer service, etc etc). Until then, this 'gimme your money or else' position is simply a turn off.

I'll take my 'or else' and go somewhere else, telling the truth about Hash Inc to everyone on the way. Actually, already have. There is no sense of propagating a vicious cycle of ransom cd keys and dongles.

There was a lot of good faith effort done by countless users. It's time to see some good faith effort from the Hash team. Oh, and an apology would be nice too. Something that's not pompous and condescending. Someone has to make the first step to a reconciliation, and I assure you, it won't be yours truly.

Sincerely,
"evil mofo" Commiekeebler.

[spo]
02-11-2003, 04:58 PM
see you in hell dude ;)

manfriday
02-12-2003, 06:15 AM
class action lawsuits?
bah.
the only people who make out in those are the lawyers.

If you wanna get back at hash..

Just stop buying thier products and tell everyone you know to follow suit.

That's what I did.

Hey Lightwave is pretty sweet.
I recommend you jump to it if you can swing it.

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