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View Full Version : The Animatrix: The Second Renaissance - Part 1 now online


lildragon
02-05-2003, 02:34 AM
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/index_anime.html

Enjoy!

Salud

KOBALT_KORE
02-05-2003, 02:48 AM
Woohoo! Thanks lildragon!:buttrock:

skello
02-05-2003, 02:51 AM
oh boy! oh! boy o boy!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Gilgamesh
02-05-2003, 02:52 AM
woo hoo. There's some good stuff in there.

WhiteRabbitObj
02-05-2003, 02:55 AM
Wow, this is fantastic! I've been looking forward to this for a long time, I can't wait for the rest + movies! Thanks for the link, I wouldn't have known it was out otherwise. :thumbsup:

This is very graphic and disturbing! LOL! I had some sympathy for the machines just from the first movie, but it looks like the history that the Wachowski's wrote is even more amazing and intertwined. Very, very cool. Genious stuff. (Can you say, "Holocaust"? Looks like Schindler's list!)

moovieboy
02-05-2003, 02:56 AM
Very interesting... I like it. A lot :D

Some of my office mates noticed it's much more graphic than the original Matrix... at least they had the "17 or older 'blocker' "

I was hoping this would keep me satiated until the next "morsel" of Matrix, but no... I want them all NOW! :scream:

Hee hee. I love them Wachowskis. They Rock... and Roll... all night long (Kung Pow)

-Tom

Risibility
02-05-2003, 03:04 AM
dayamn, theres some hot robots in the future...err

yea whats up with giving robots emotions, humans need to stop doing that, i swear...

Lukashi
02-05-2003, 03:06 AM
I saw a 3d model of a women on the site, is that gonna be in the movie too?

Mazer
02-05-2003, 03:10 AM
Cool:buttrock: but, can we have a dowloadable vertion? Please:D

Lunatique
02-05-2003, 03:18 AM
I downloaded it just fine.

If you don't have a download accelerator, just go to your temporary internet files and it'll be there after you finish watching it.

I loved it.

How much input did the individual creators have on their part of the Animatrix? I'm pretty sure the brothers didn't write all of the Animatrix? Wasn't the point to have Anime creators in Japan come up with their own Matrix stories?

BTW, are all of the Animatrix segments going to be released online, or only some of it so we would buy the DVD?

urgaffel
02-05-2003, 03:20 AM
I. Want. The DVDS. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOwwwwwwwwwww....

thanks for the heads up LilD

Cman
02-05-2003, 03:21 AM
Wow is that violently graphic!
I was gonna share it with my nephew until those murder scenes in the streets.

Still, it's an excellent short film. :thumbsup:


Lunatique, I do believe only 3 get released online. All of them come on the DVD.

SheepFactory
02-05-2003, 03:30 AM
:eek: WOW!


Is this the episode they are going to show before dreamcatcher or a new one?

Kricket
02-05-2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
:eek: WOW!


Is this the episode they are going to show before dreamcatcher or a new one?

Flight of the Osiris by Square is supposed to play before Dreamcatcher.

markdc
02-05-2003, 03:39 AM
:thumbsup: Can't wait to see more.

Infinity3d4life
02-05-2003, 03:52 AM
Awesome..
DIRECT LINK RIGHT

HERE (http://progressive.stream.aol.com/wb/gl/wbonline/progressive/thematrix/us/med/animatrixlgfinal_dl.mov)

Right click and save target...

Sieb
02-05-2003, 04:27 AM
I hope the next episodes are longer. That kicked massive arse... I want more!

Crithon
02-05-2003, 04:29 AM
Some times I have to say that I worry about spin off and sequels..... But WOW Man, WOW! This is so amazing. So amazing, to see animation from people who are willing to take risks. Can you imagine if they released all the short films in the theaters instead of the internet? Can you imagine R rated short animated films in the theaters?

I'm just so happy to see that they didn't do just gimick like what we have been seeing for the past 4 years after the release of the original matrix.

What's really funny is that I'm the only one in this building watching this short film. Everyone is upstairs watching American Idol. I don't know about you guys, but I can't stand seeing organisations exploting others. I like programs that have show off the artist talent. Yeah, I know those kids can sing, but can they play insturments, write their own lyrics or even invent amazing images that will influence millions? Which is why I'm glad I'm wtahcing this short film.

Wow, Man! Wow!

kraal
02-05-2003, 04:45 AM
i am so looking forward to the sequals but expected a little more from this animation episode...not saying it was at all bad just thought it was a little haphazzard just making scenes of slavery...the holocaust and tianemin square but happening to robots instead of people.....but on a different note...does this remind anyone else of heavy metal????? trust me if it does that is not a bad thing

Yassy
02-05-2003, 04:48 AM
i do not like it...because I`ve recently ignore about robot future.....
It`s contents are twenty centry staff...
I thought that Broken Saint better than several animatrix staff.:annoyed:

Akuma
02-05-2003, 05:00 AM
I WANT IT. I WANT IT. I WANT IT!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:buttrock: :bounce:

iatepaste
02-05-2003, 05:10 AM
Is anyone else having issues w/ the sound on the large one? It doesn't seem correctly balanced. I'm having to turn it way up and can still barely hear the narration.

Amazing stuff though.

singularity2006
02-05-2003, 05:33 AM
::jaw drops to the floor w/ an acceleration of 3 x 10 ^ 8 m/s::

More
02-05-2003, 05:39 AM
Pretty cool, but im not a big fan of the 'American style anime'. Just doesnt look right. Looks to much like american comics.

singularity2006
02-05-2003, 05:43 AM
daaamn... i just saved the file... 141MB!!! :eek:

Cman
02-05-2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by kraal
i am so looking forward to the sequals but expected a little more from this animation episode...not saying it was at all bad just thought it was a little haphazzard just making scenes of slavery...the holocaust and tianemin square but happening to robots instead of people.....but on a different note...does this remind anyone else of heavy metal????? trust me if it does that is not a bad thing

I think that's sort of the point.
To make you look at our actions against ourselves, but with perspective.
I t hink... :hmm:

The main thing I got out of this short film was: Don't give robots consciousness!

ceql
02-05-2003, 05:57 AM
Downloading....

but one of my speakers has cut out this morning for no reason! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! :'( :'(

GRMac13
02-05-2003, 06:36 AM
Stunning imagery and cinematography. Great animation both 2D and CG. I love how they mixed both mediums. As far as the storyline goes, I have mixed feelings about it. At first it seemed to be original, but I noticed alot of things that were "borrowed" from other films. The way social class was broken up by "levels" in the city was eerily similar to "Metropolis." With the rich "elite" class blossoming in the upper level and the lowly "working class" robots slaving away down below. I also felt, like kraal, that the "holocaust" and Tienamen square-type shots were too blatantly recognizable. Another gripe I had was the way they portrayed the 'bots as having "human-like" emotions (such as fear of 'death') without giving enough explanation as to how they were created. It seemed very "A.I." Not saying that that is neccessarily bad, but there is not enough exposition about how and why the 'bots are programmed that way. How does that create a more efficient worker?

The other thing that bugged me was how evil the portrayal of humanity was. It's one thing to create a sort of empathy for the bots' condition, but in the end they are just machines. The violence was excessive, IMO. Not the fact that it was so graphic, but that much of it just wasn't neccessary. I could understand the female android being assaulted by those thugs, but the mass extermination of the machines seemed uncalled for. It was a huge waste of equipment and technology. Wouldn't it be smarter for the humans to simply re-program the machines and remove the damn "emotion" feature so they could continue to serve the population? Instead, they destroy the 'bots and their own economy in the process. For what? It just didn't seem logical. Also, I'd love to know how they were able to build a city while at war with humans...(again, needs more exposition).

I do think overall it was a cool story, but there were a bit too many plot holes IMO. Is this the first short or is there one that I missed that can tie up these loose ends? I would really love to learn more about the creation of the AI and the machines. It's too much to rush into an epic like this with little or no backstory. The animation is outstanding though, I hope the next ones are just as good but with a tighter story.

ceql
02-05-2003, 07:04 AM
mmm awesome, just saw it :D (Sennheiser headphones save the
day!)

/me agrees completely with everything GRMac13 said :)

The attack on the female cyborg was pretty evil and a bit disturbing though, imho :'(

singularity2006
02-05-2003, 07:44 AM
pretty damn creative still.... though a bit graphic... but that's just the japanese style =D

.... ::jaw continuing to accelerate downward w/ an a = 3 x 10 ^8 m/s^2 ... ::

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 08:59 AM
nice eye candy, but i had the feeling that too many sequences / images were ripped off from other sources. maybe on purpose i dont know.

its well made and everything but to me it has the feeling of "seen it all before"

Yassy
02-05-2003, 09:03 AM
I think that these animations isn`t important for animation creative or sci fi discuss.:hmm: :thumbsdow

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Yassy
I think that these animations isn`t important for animation creative or sci fi discuss.:hmm: :thumbsdow

these animations = anime or
these animations = this animatrix episode

Solesurvivor
02-05-2003, 09:35 AM
it's all been seen before = lame argument, why are we sitting on the virge of a new war, didn't we have that already ?? :rolleyes:
In case you didn't notice, history repeats itself, that's the same way with movies


As far as the anime is concerned brilliant stuff :thumbsup:

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Solesurvivor
it's all been seen before = lame argument, why are we sitting on the virge of a new war, didn't we have that already ?? :rolleyes:
In case you didn't notice, history repeats itself, that's the same way with movies

just because history repeats itself doesnt mean one have to recycle movies over and over again. theres a lot of good stuff out there that doesnt just copy other stuff.

Yassy
02-05-2003, 09:49 AM
>these animations = anime or
>these animations = this animatrix episode

this animatrix episode..........................................................

santiago
02-05-2003, 10:09 AM
the robots were shown as hebrew slaves to egyptians, then massacred like jews massacred by nazis.
they use the bible, and asian imagery together, to make the story have some sort of depth or background.
the script was quite straightforward and boring.
quite cheezy, to say the least, I'm not impressed at all.
it didn't add much at all to what Morpheus already explained in the matrix.
The only thing I liked about it was some scenes, artistically speaking. But I've seen much better anime than this.
I guess I was expecting much more than that.
when the story is bad, no matter how high the anime quality is, the story doesnt improve.
I hope the next animatrix episode is better... as a matter of fact... I'm counting on it

[msf]
02-05-2003, 10:56 AM
It seems some of you wanted everything for free. You have to remember in the end these first episodes are just to give us a taste for the animatrix so we buy the DVD, better yet preorder it. I enjoyed the first episode myself, but that may because instead of watching it and picking it apart like some movie critic, or as a artist expecting something completely new and original, I assumed the role of the general audience for five minutes. Sure I noticed little twitches in the plot and other things but when I am constantly measuring it up trying to find anyway its mimicing some other films I can quickly become unsatisfied. Its the first short episode, it started laying some groundwork for the robot revolution and shows that maybe humans are possibly somewhat responsible for the uprising. As humans and the dominant species on this planet we have a tendency to take things for granted and think that human lives are the only ones that matter. Think of how easily you swat a fly. Just because its not to your liking and not human does that make its life any less valuable? Im off on a rant here. Right now the message I got watching the movie was merely a image of Mankind creating almost a mirror image of itself, proceeding to get upset when the new race acts just as we always have and starts a revolution.

*Shrugs*

Celshader
02-05-2003, 10:57 AM
Cool short; I'm looking forwards to seeing part two. :)

As a fan of Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, though, I'm most looking forwards to the March release of Yoshiaki Kawajiri's Animatrix short, "Program."

Manicalavera15
02-05-2003, 10:59 AM
here's for download (official link...just copied in the movie' source page) :
http://progressive.stream.aol.com/wb/gl/wbonline/progressive/thematrix/us/med/animatrixlgfinal_dl.mov

More
02-05-2003, 11:11 AM
"And for a time, it was good"
It may just be me, but throughout the dialogue, this sentance always seemed out of place. :shame:

Khepri
02-05-2003, 12:05 PM
its quite disturbing how an animation made quite a while back(I think) is illustrating the exact thing that is happening now! some "superpower" thinking that the other one is bad, starting a war over something that is quite frankly not even a reason to injure one single man/women/child/animal..... oil(or like in the anime products that are superiour to their own products!).


I think its not a question about not giving robots very good AI, but rather giving certain individuals to much power.

:hmm:

aaannnyyway since its only sci-fi it won't happen before all of us(people who are reading this/everyone of their agegroup) die.


now back ontopic:

the animation is very very nice! I don't think it has been done before, if it was, it wouldn't be original, and then it would not have been made.

the animation is top notch, so is the sound.

it gives a nice view from the other perspective(robotside which I think this is about) and how they look upon their victory over man(in the end being better than them by keeping good hope).

Id like to see that happen IRL...people being more tollorant.


:annoyed:

Solesurvivor
02-05-2003, 12:16 PM
theres a lot of good stuff out there that doesnt just copy other stuff.

in a way, 99% of what you see is copied, cuz the writer is inspired by things he has around him, or on the news, but everyone has a different way of thinking about these things... So it's not quite the same as the original but still, that's way people think, they pick up all kinds of information, associate it with each other, that process differs from person to person

then you have the other 1%, which consists out of pure genius

:thumbsup:

erikals
02-05-2003, 12:18 PM
I haven't seen it yet (downloading), but I know that making an original story that is cool at the same time is Really difficult. I have tried to write some stories on my own and I'm falling in the same trap as everybody else, the beginning of the story is ok, but then it just gets totally booring and confusing, basically because I'm out of ideas. It's really hard. (Try it)

I also feel that American "Anime" cartoons don't cut it. They look like bad copies. Hope this one is better.

Howzat
02-05-2003, 12:29 PM
I'm not going near your first comment with a 10 foot pole Khepri, and for the sake of this thread I hope no one else does!

I loved the animation and while I thought parts of it were unoriginal I really liked the bit about the robots setting up an independent state and taking over the world economy...
I am going to LOVE this year and its matrix overload!

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Solesurvivor
in a way, 99% of what you see is copied, cuz the writer is inspired by things he has around him, or on the news, but everyone has a different way of thinking about these things... So it's not quite the same as the original but still, that's way people think, they pick up all kinds of information, associate it with each other, that process differs from person to person
then you have the other 1%, which consists out of pure genius

:thumbsup:

i didnt expect it to be 100% original, cause i think thats kind of impossible to do nowadays, and i didnt mind the story being not that original either... since after all... robot ai taking over mankind... well that story has been done back then in Terminator.

what kind of bugged me was that the pictures were copied as well though, in framing and composition. if the idea isnt that original maybe find a different way to portray it, instead of using old images to portray oppression..

like someone pointed out: "the robots were shown as hebrew slaves to egyptians, then massacred like jews massacred by nazis." then we have the roboter standing in the way of the tank just like that famous picture from Tiananmen Square... the beginning was straight from michel gondrys polaroid commercial. i dont LOOK for similarities, but after the first couple you just get more and more aware and look closer.

DragomanJK
02-05-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by GRMac13
I would really love to learn more about the creation of the AI and the machines. It's too much to rush into an epic like this with little or no backstory.

That sounds like a great story... Well, one day Bob realized that with his Sims game, he could put it inside a robot a Blamo! there was AI!
Let's have a prequel to our prequel...
What do you want to know that would help further the story? I understand it, don't need to know every single step in the timeline.
They put the creation of the AI and robots : Oh well it was a 20min clip and they didn't put in the name of the company, or why the president started the company in the first place... Why didn't the Japaneese make thier own version? A levitating car isn't possible! Blah, blah... fiction, FICTION!

Howzat
02-05-2003, 12:39 PM
lol@DragomanJK!
Right on!

dingo
02-05-2003, 02:57 PM
It's funny to see how people are complaining about the similarity of the Jews, and Tianamen Square.

The similarity is there ON PURPOSE.

Also, this is a big also. In recent years there have been discussions on the "death of AI". But what people are finding out is that right now in our society AI is all around us, and in some ways simply emerged. This Forum has some of the rudementary algorithms of AI, by simply knowing where to place this post.

Other AI systems are e-commerce systems that presents products based on user profiles.

So I present the thought that maybe we don't need to know why/who made thinking robots, maybe they emerged, from the designs of the systems they interfaced with.

Here is another argument: This first animation is taken from an archive, a human one at that, after a war. Maybe that's why some peices are missing. But those peices do not need to be there for the story to move forward.

Also for those saying this is American Anime, well simply put you are wrong. Do your research, funny how little people know about animation production on a CGtalk forum.

Anyways, I thought this episode of Animatrix was great work, and look forward to the next ones.

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by dingo
It's funny to see how people are complaining about the similarity of the Jews, and Tianamen Square.
The similarity is there ON PURPOSE.


yes, i think that was rather obvious. i was rather complaining about the short trying to portray "opression" by using known images and phrases, no matter where they came from.. million man march, holocaust, hebrew slaves, tianamen, throwing it all together and replacing the opressed party with robots.

Lunatique
02-05-2003, 03:23 PM
I agree with dingo 100%

Everyone's a critic--yet lots of times people have no idea what they are talking about.

Those scenes of oppression are done on purpose--to mirror our violent tendencies--in a manner that strikes a blow to our collective shameful past of war crimes. It's a commentary, a criticism, a reflection, and a reminder to the audience of our own history of violence. They picked those very famous imageries to mirror because those are the ones that's burned into our minds--for generations. It wasn't a cop out--it was a deliberate and effective choice.

And about the "American Anime" look--I guess most of you don't know much about anime history at all. Do some research.

This is but ONE chapter out of many. Watch them all before jumping to conclusions.

Stimpy
02-05-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Lunatique
Those scenes of oppression are done on purpose--to mirror our violent tendencies--in a manner that strikes a blow to our collective shameful past of war crimes. It's a commentary, a criticism, a reflection, and a reminder to the audience of our own history of violence. They picked those very famous imageries to mirror because those are the ones that's burned into our minds--for generations. It wasn't a cop out--it was a deliberate and effective choice.

thats your opinion. i thought it was cheap overuse of symbols (maybe not symbols, cant think of the proper name right now) for lack of getting an idea across otherwise.

Lunatique
02-05-2003, 04:13 PM
Here's another reason why those scenes were done the way they are:

The director wanted to use the most direct way to get the audience to feel sympathy for the robots. Putting them in situations that mirrored the greatest acts of violence that's sympathized by people around the world, it triggers our memories of the moments when we first saw those images in our past, and subliminally gets us to see the robots in the same light we saw the original victims in human history.

Of course, you don't have to like it. People's taste differ. Some people can't stand movies that I love, and vice versa.

erikals
02-05-2003, 04:38 PM
I know it's not "anime", but is it a name for this animation style?

Sieb
02-05-2003, 04:40 PM
I agree with Lunatique, the director had to choose some way to describe what is happening in the story in a form we will understand. The Tianamen square immediately comes to mind when you see the clip, and that was on purpose. It makes you connect the two to understand the emotions behind it. I don't consider this as blantant copying or mimicing. Hell, all they do in movies now adays is copy each other, nothing is original anymore. These are some well known directors doing this, like the director of Cowboy Bebop IIRC. Im like the others here, those images are there for a reason and I think it does a good job of preparing us for how this story unfolds. I also think that its all rather realistic. The minute man finds someone else to do the work, they will slack off, then get angry when the oppressed rise up.. Its human nature. Which is why I also think this strikes a cord with some people. The series isnt supposed to be anything new and revolutionary, just a story. And I am quite sure the rest of the episodes will have a dramatic change once we pick up the story.

I think we are being a little too critical of this first episode. I think this first one is just a test, a prologue. Give it a chance to breath. Almost each one will be different, and each will probably be in a different format/style.

kwshipman
02-05-2003, 04:43 PM
I thought that this was a great short. I feel that it would have been better if the sysbolism was a little more origional but then again the director only had nine minuets to get his story out there. So using using a holocost imagary is really the best way to go. People will see it, and imediatly know what is going on with out having to into a lot of detail. Also pretty sure that he was trying to make us look at ourselves and remind us of our past and its simularities to the road that we are taking with AI.

Or it could just be a cartoon short, but I like the first one better.

Maximus Groff
02-05-2003, 05:04 PM
Man... lot of things crashed badly...

robots pushing tons like with their hands ?? and at the same time they got flying cars... i mean, whats the point !!!

The violence scenes are just "look at me, look at me..here its 60% of the budget..".

When morpheus said "no one knows who striked first.. us or them.. but it was us who scorched the skies" - THIS JUST DONT COMPUTE.

im very disapointed...

erikals
02-05-2003, 05:12 PM
:shrug:
I think the trailer was so very much cooler. (even though it was a trailer)
I guess I expected too much from it.
:wise: Next episode will be much better, for sure.

Nazgul
02-05-2003, 05:13 PM
Here's a mail posted this morning on the XSI mailing list...
*******************
You are all invited to take a look at the first episode of the ANIMATRIX, a series of 10 Anime Shorts based in the world of the Matrix. 9 of these episodes were produced by SOFTIMAGE Special Projects, in the person of Michael Arias.

These episodes feature a mix of traditional cel animation and 3D animation (using XSI), and of course the Toon Shader. These will be released on the web, then be available on DVD shortly afterward.Can't wait to see the next episodes.

Congratulation Michael, this is amazing work.

Olivier Ozoux
Director, SOFTIMAGE Special Projects
*******************

Douglask
02-05-2003, 06:50 PM
Can't wait for Matriculated--HUGE fan of the Aeon Flux and Alexander series...Peter Chung is the MAN!

:eek: OH NO, AGENTS!! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Commiekeebler
02-05-2003, 07:14 PM
Having problems downloading it from their site. What's up with plugin errors? I've got a clean system over here.

neonhomer
02-05-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Maximus Groff
robots pushing tons like with their hands ?? and at the same time they got flying cars... i mean, whats the point !!!

The violence scenes are just "look at me, look at me..here its 60% of the budget..".

When morpheus said "no one knows who striked first.. us or them.. but it was us who scorched the skies" - THIS JUST DONT COMPUTE.
I think maximus brought up some good points. It seemed silly that they woulnd't just build bigger robots to do bigger jobs... but then they would lose the "hebrew slavery" imagery like prince of egypt.

Some of the violence left a bad taste in my mouth, especially the robot chick. I guess that was a pull for more sympathy.

And finally the the line from morpheus doesn't seem to fit with this short at all, but maybe we'll see this tie in better later on...

Edgemaster
02-05-2003, 08:37 PM
Well I thought what I saw was great.... I guess Im looking at the movie clip at a different perspective...You say that it was already done..Right?...Like the beginning being like the bible in many ways and many other thing in the movie represented our history..

Well think of it this way....In the movie (the matrix) they where put in a dream world to be only power (batteries) for the robots...Well think of it this way (kinda hard to explain)..This reality isnt real...(there is no spoon).....But the animation that took place was in reality (the matrix)...but our reality is still in the dream world....You see what Im getting at...Unless Im looking at this matrix thing all wrong...

I say this because I sometimes think to my self..."is this real or am I living a dream"....This is how I felt after watching the matrix (for the first time)...Kinda a point to make you look at the reality around you....

Either way The Matrix Rocks!!!! :buttrock:

lerpiedood
02-05-2003, 11:54 PM
That was just... so mesmorizing...WOW! I'm definatly going to buy the dvd, very talented artistry there. Took me 2 hours to DL, but it was worth it.

Theta-Dot
02-05-2003, 11:59 PM
Hey I'm just glad I get something to ponder over. To ponder whether it was good... to ponder whether it was bad... it's all the same to me. Just as long as it gives me sumthin to oil the gears in my mind with. It's just something new so I'm happy.

=ThetaDot=

dingo
02-06-2003, 12:22 AM
In regards "no one knows who striked first.. us or them.. but it was us who scorched the skies"

1. The "War" has not started, the short ends with the robot embassadors being taken away. To get a clue look at the gallery for Rennisance part2.

2. Maybe that was Morpheous' (human's ) perspective of the truth.

3. Possibly the Zion Archive has been hacked by the machines.

In regards to is this "real anime" look at the credits and the production houses of the people that are working on these shorts.

I may being too defensive of the short would be nice to discuss some of the production/technique.

draconix
02-06-2003, 12:43 AM
Can't seem to download it :hmm:

Probably have to wait till after the hype dies down. :shrug:

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by DragomanJK
What do you want to know that would help further the story? I understand it, don't need to know every single step in the timeline.

Umm ok? It makes complete sense to you that an advanced AI capable of emotion and a "fear of death" just appeared out of nowhere? The robots were made to do physical work for man according to the short. Well if that's the case, what do they need emotions for? How does that make a more efficent worker? It's a plot-hole, plain and simple. They needed to do more exposition on the creation of the AI, and why the bots were made to be able to think so independently. Not a 20 minute short, but maybe a minute or two of explanation as to why they would have autonomous machines that could turn on them at any moment.

Originally posted by dingo
It's funny to see how people are complaining about the similarity of the Jews, and Tianamen Square.

The similarity is there ON PURPOSE.

It's obviously there on purpose, but they could have chosen a different way of portraying it. I guess it does work for the average viewer, but to me it seemed a bit cheesy.

Originally posted by dingo
Also, this is a big also. In recent years there have been discussions on the "death of AI". But what people are finding out is that right now in our society AI is all around us, and in some ways simply emerged. This Forum has some of the rudementary algorithms of AI, by simply knowing where to place this post.

Other AI systems are e-commerce systems that presents products based on user profiles.

So I present the thought that maybe we don't need to know why/who made thinking robots, maybe they emerged, from the designs of the systems they interfaced with.

Not good enough for me. The AI you're referring to is very primitive and a far cry from being able to interpret and understand the complexity of human emotion. Nevermind having a sense of "self-awareness." That is just uneccessary for a machine who's intended to perform specific tasks. Why were there robots that were "skinned" to look like humans? What function did they serve in society? They didn't do enough to explain what the robots specific tasks were and what sort of intelligence they had. Logically, to give a factory robot a "sense of self" is counterproductive. Next thing you know your welding arm wants a coffee break.

Meaty
02-06-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Maximus Groff
Man... lot of things crashed badly...

robots pushing tons like with their hands ?? and at the same time they got flying cars... i mean, whats the point !!!

The violence scenes are just "look at me, look at me..here its 60% of the budget..".

When morpheus said "no one knows who striked first.. us or them.. but it was us who scorched the skies" - THIS JUST DONT COMPUTE.

im very disapointed...


What doesn't compute exactly? We still haven't seen the first shot fired of the war. We were left with a Naval blockade, nothing more. Further, Morpheus' statement was a statment expressing the lack of a colletive knowledge of history after the war. If you remember, Morpheus didnt even know what YEAR it was!

If you are looking for a symatic reason that the robots pushing tons with their hands and not using the other technology then you are missing the point. The point of that was as a comparision to the pyramids, as others have stated. I haven't lived in this fantastic world, so I can't really give you a full explanation.

The Matrix did not have all that original a story. The 'brain in a vat' is a well established philosophy, and alternate realities are nothing new to the big screen. The twist with the machines is interesting for sure, but what really sets The Matrix apart is the style of the story telling and the style of the employed effects. I didnt come away from this feeling like it was that far a leap from the movie's style, aside from, of course, the fact that it was animated.

We will have to wait to see how the Animatrix series fits into The Matrix. Will we get to know any characters? I hope it is not 10 episodes of historical narration. Appropriate for the first one, sure. Maybe we will meet the person before Neo who was born inside the Matrix who could control it. Will we see the first attempt when the machines tried to make a Utopian society?

Sorry you didn't like it, I found it to be rather enjoyable. About as much as we could expect out of a 10 minute historical introduction. If the goal of this was to sell me on buying the DVDs, then they succeeded. I can't wait for more!

JamesDeschenes
02-06-2003, 01:18 AM
I liked it even tho I don't want anime often. Few points that I have to say is that some of the animation is reallly choppy.. like it seemed on some of it it was animated on 6's or 8's. My other thing was that the robot chick getten beaten to death and her clothes ripped off just seems so cliche.. I think I seen that happen in like 60% of the anime I see.


But other that that it's cool :p

Agent D
02-06-2003, 01:23 AM
Hmmmmm...
I was expecting something a lot more realistic, original, and intesting. but I guess the animation was good. I agree with GRMac13's posts basically.
The whole idea of building humanoid robots with emotions to do our manual labor (Mining? Carrying stuff!? :rolleyes: ) is even more far-fetched and ridiculous than the idea of using humans as biological power sources. Seriously, about half way through the cheesiness of it all almost made me close the movie. I was expecting a more SkyNet type of AI or something, but certainly not a big parade of protesting worker robots that looked like Playmobil toys.
It was also a bit odd to see the history coming from the Zion mainframes. In the movie they didn't know how the war started, or even what year it was.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the Matrix and can't wait for the next one, but I don't think this particular Animatrix episode was any good.

kraal
02-06-2003, 01:26 AM
ok like i said earlyier i likoed the animation and love the matrix i too watched it as an audience member and not an artist....after reading an earlier post it makes sence...i was thinking that the images of the robots and other historical tradgeties bothered me cause it was just scenes from history with robots...now when i put it in context of the matrix maybe my history is all faked bassed on what the robots programed me to think or remeber

Meaty
02-06-2003, 01:30 AM
Partially playing devils advocate, I am trying to make this seem to make sense.

I dont think they really have emotion, I think they have an instinct to survive...
(the following is up for debate obviously)

what drives emotion is the opposite of what drives rationality, and because they are "all based on rules" they can never be truely emotional. They may be coded to have 'emotive responses' but i dont think they are a conciousness in the metaphysical sense (if you even believe in the metaphycial existance of the human soul)

I dunno, what do you all think?

oracle
02-06-2003, 03:18 AM
I think the animation was quite cool, and I thouroughly enjoyed it... To all the nay-sayers complaining about how "unoriginal" it is, I say WHO CARES!

No, The Matrix wasn't an original idea. In fact this idea is VERY OLD! It was almost impossible to miss the Hindu symbology of Zion's mainframe (the whole yantra/mandala thing was strikingly obvious.) Also, anyone who has looked in Hindu theology know's what the Rishi's (sage, seer) have always known.

The Hindu Rishi's say that what we think of as 'reality' (ie. 'the world of form', the material universe) is an illusion or mass hallucination sustained by ignorance.

The more you look into the many different religions and their similarities, the more you would realise that quite alot of modern stories are an archetype (an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious)

kraal
02-06-2003, 03:23 AM
i dont think people are questioning the originality of the matrix it's self cause the influences are not hidden....;the probly is when you do not creativly reflect these influences

Celshader
02-06-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by GRMac13
Umm ok? It makes complete sense to you that an advanced AI capable of emotion and a "fear of death" just appeared out of nowhere? The robots were made to do physical work for man according to the short. Well if that's the case, what do they need emotions for?

I'm guessing shelf life. A robot with a sense of self-preservation probably lasts longer than a robot that doesn't look after itself. In his robot stories, Isaac Asimov made self-preservation the Third Law of Robotics.

It's a pity the Matrix robots didn't come equipped with Asimov's First and Second Laws, though. :)

Originally posted by GRMac13
Why were there robots that were "skinned" to look like humans? What function did they serve in society?

Probably sex toys. Either that, or the robots tried to blend in with society by "skinning" themselves. In his quest to become human, Andrew Martin traded in his metallic looks for humanoid skin in Asimov's "Bicentennial Man" story.

Maximus Groff
02-06-2003, 03:58 AM
im taking a bad feeling... why the 1st episode of animatrix is so 'love or hate' thing ? If u are responsible for a huge releases like this, the most obvius choice is to remain in the zone, NEVER ever throw stuff..

1) I totally agree with them building a robot city.. thats awesome.
2) The robots way: you discover that u think.. then u stop working for man... you get your ass kicked... then u flee to somewhere... grow stronger... THEN you oferr a truce ????
3) If there is a record on Zion mainframe, why MORPHEUS -responsable for Neo (the man who is supposed to save mankind) does not know this ?????

Forget the movie matrix and look again at the short. Do you still wanna see episode 2 ?

ive seen the matrix over 6, maybe 7 times... i just loved all the concepts...

and then this..

guys... tell me 3 good stuff from this movie..
i.. just..dont...believe..

[switching to Macross and Evangelion] [click]

Stahlberg
02-06-2003, 04:06 AM
Meaty, ok I'll take the opposing view - emotions are necessary for any kind of self-regulated, independent entity above a certain level of complexity.

An amoeba obviously has no emotions. But we do, and apes do, and dogs and pigs and dolphins and horses... how far down into simpler species do we have to go to be sure no emotion is present? Who knows. But a good guess would be, lower than all mammals at least. Dinosaurs must have had emotions, simple ones maybe, but still.
Actually I'd say anything with a brain has emotions, and some people say even plants have them. IMO without them life wouldn't be possible very far above the cellular level.

Fear of death or damage, sexual arousement, anger, are all vital to survival. Without them we wouldn't care if we stepped off a precipice, or procreated, or defended ourselves.
We need a feeling of pleasure to tell us what is good, and a feeling of Bad/Wrong (or 'badong' in Kung Pow) to program into us what is not good for us.

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Celshader
I'm guessing shelf life. A robot with a sense of self-preservation probably lasts longer than a robot that doesn't look after itself. In his robot stories, Isaac Asimov made self-preservation the Third Law of Robotics.

It's a pity the Matrix robots didn't come equipped with Asimov's First and Second Laws, though. :)



Probably sex toys. Either that, or the robots tried to blend in with society by "skinning" themselves. In his quest to become human, Andrew Martin traded in his metallic looks for humanoid skin in Asimov's "Bicentennial Man" story.

Ok, but self-preservation is different from self-awareness. I could see giving itself regular maintainence, and keeping tabs on it's own systems. However, the whole "fear of death" issue is stretching it. That would mean that the robots were capable of understanding much more than what they were supposed to be programmed for. They would have to be able to recognise their own consciousness. The complexity of the AI would have to be enormous, and I just can't see a reason for making machines so "human-like". The robot that killed it's owners did so because it didn't want to "die." That's a little tough to swallow being that we are left to draw our own conclusions as to the origin of the AI and the level of it's complexity. It's like your vacuum cleaner choking you to death for talking about buying a new Hoover.

My big gripe with the plot is that they made it seem as though the robots' main function was to release man from the burden of physical labor. We have bots that can do that now, just visit any car manufacturing plant. Those robots have just enough AI to allow them to complete specific tasks. Anything more than that is overkill and as you can see counterproductive. They have no "emotions." For example, why have a robot capable of feeling pain? The "woman" bot that gets attacked and destroyed was screaming as if she was being raped and/or physically harmed. What good is that? Now, you say that they may have served as "sex toys," etc. OK, but that's the sort of thing I think needed further explanation. Like a minute or two montage of all the different robots, their specific tasks, how they served society, etc. As it is they hardly tell you the purpose they serve and show only the bots that are doing physical tasks such as serving drinks or working in industry. Incidentally we have bots now that can do both of those things, but their AI is very primitive.

Carl
02-06-2003, 04:14 AM
I think equating the human suffering of the Jews in the holocaust with this fantasy robot techno comic book is pretty infantile. The Million Machine March? I could easily see people laughing about that. I also didn't appreciate the reference to chinese protestors standing in front of tanks. Very trivializing to the source material.
I think the matrix is about the fear that progress, as opposed to being some sort of technological manifest destiny for mankind, is indifferent to us. So indifferent, that it may destroy us. I wish they had stuck to imagery that illustrated those themes instead of tastelessly using imagery from human genocide and war crimes as a cheap shot at generating empathy.

dingo
02-06-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by GRMac13
Not good enough for me. The AI you're referring to is very primitive and a far cry from being able to interpret and understand the complexity of human emotion. Nevermind having a sense of "self-awareness." That is just uneccessary for a machine who's intended to perform specific tasks. Why were there robots that were "skinned" to look like humans? What function did they serve in society? They didn't do enough to explain what the robots specific tasks were and what sort of intelligence they had. Logically, to give a factory robot a "sense of self" is counterproductive. Next thing you know your welding arm wants a coffee break.

I'll some other forms of AI that have been developing quite rapidly: Video Games, Face Recognition, Voice Recognition, Handwriting Recognition. All of these are starting to converge.

Not too much of a stretch to imagine them advancing in a science fiction story.

In regards to making the robots too small, or without emotions for doing good work.

Maybe humans would make them smaller as a fail-safe. Let me explain what I mean. One of the reasons Sony's latest humanoid robot smaller than Honda's(Asimo). Sony's engineers, felt that making it larger could offer a potential danger and liability. Humans, particularly with science feel they can control or contain things they make, often without considering if they should make them at all. Is Sony correct is a smaller robot safer? Is making a smaller robot than man a built-in fail-safe, because we are bigger we will be able to control it?

Either way, like someone mentioned, I am definitely getting the dvd, and watching the others as they come out.

PS- In regards originality, I love originality, I love good stories, it's great when they come together to form something greater than both. I also love watching an old episode of Star Trek, or an old Western, or hearing a good knock-knock joke.

PSS-I can't wait to see Peter Chung's short.

Phred42
02-06-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by oracle
The Hindu Rishi's say that what we think of as 'reality' (ie. 'the world of form', the material universe) is an illusion or mass hallucination sustained by ignorance.


Funnily enough, I think the Hindu word for the concept you're describing is "Maya." =) (No seriously...that's where a|w got the name from!)

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by dingo
Not too much of a stretch to imagine them advancing in a science fiction story.

Advancing on their own with or without our help? They can't in their current state advance to the point of having "emotions" or complete autonomy without our help. There has to be a reason why we chose to make the machines so intellignet and independent that was not discussed in the film.

Meaty
02-06-2003, 05:09 AM
This wasn't a tome length feature, it showed a lot of imagery in a very short period of time. No it did not explain every nano sized detail exhaustively... it left quite a bit up to the imagination (maybe so not as to insult the viewer). So if you can deal with that and let your imagination run, then enjoy it, i dont think it leaves any more up to the imagination than the average sci-fi. Don't forget, this is 1/10th of the series. Who knows, maybe I'll have a completely different view when the are all available. But, at the very least, the first movie was palatable.

Stahlberg: Okay, I'll see what I can do about that :-) Those animals you mentioned do have emotions. They can be happy or sad without doubt. But what seperates us from them (as far as we know) and also from the machines is that human beings are the only speices capable of self-cognizant thought, that is, being able to contemplate your own existance, self-awareness. Obviously the AI is very advanced, but not THAT advanced, or one might argue, that flawed:D

QUOTE]Originally posted by GRMac13
Ok, but self-preservation is different from self-awareness. I could see giving itself regular maintainence, and keeping tabs on it's own systems. However, the whole "fear of death" issue is stretching it. That would mean that the robots were capable of understanding much more than what they were supposed to be programmed for. They would have to be able to recognise their own consciousness.
....
....
Advancing on their own with or without our help? They can't in their current state advance to the point of having "emotions" or complete autonomy without our help. There has to be a reason why we chose to make the machines so intellignet and independent that was not discussed in the film.
[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that self-preservation implies self-cognizant thought? Because there are plenty of examples of creatures which demonstrate self-preservation without that type of awareness. Shoot, at a rudimentary level(comparitively speaking), computers do it already!

If I had to guess as to the reason for the second question... I would first say that they don't have real emotions. If I had to guess why they made them so intelligent, I would say that it is for efficiency. Right now, we have computers, but we still have to operate them. If they could be programmed to be autonomous, then why not? Well, we saw why not in the movie. The programming was too 'good' and one robot revolted which lead to a uprising and a robot genocide exodus. I guess there was debate among the humans of the time as to weather or not they actually had feelings and self-cognitive thought, hence the robot sympathizers. So I guess it is only natural for the viewers t have the same debate :-)

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 05:19 AM
MODS:
Somebody please delete this post, it keeps telling me I'm not authorized.

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 05:19 AM
MODS:
Somebody please delete this post, it keeps telling me I'm not authorized.

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Meaty
This wasn't a tome length feature, it showed a lot of imagery in a very short period of time. No it did not explain every nano sized detail exhaustively... it left quite a bit up to the imagination (maybe so not as to insult the viewer). So if you can deal with that and let your imagination run, then enjoy it, i dont think it leaves any more up to the imagination than the average sci-fi. Don't forget, this is 1/10th of the series. Who knows, maybe I'll have a completely different view when the are all available. But, at the very least, the first movie was palatable.

As I said in my first post, I did enjoy the film for the most part, I just expected some more exposition. It would have been much more efficent and would have only added to the viewers' enjoyment and understanding of the story. Like I said, a minute or 2 synopsis of the development of the machines and the purposes they served would suffice. I'm not looking for an exhaustive dissertation on the complexities of AI or robotics, just a brief history of their creation and assimilation into the society. Something more detailed than "man made machine in his own likeness." I would also like to know what happened to the poor and working class when the robots took all of their jobs away? I just think it could've been an interesting story in it's own right. Oh well.

Since this is the first film out of 10, maybe they will have some more information in some of the other films. I'm def going to get the DVD, if for no other reason than the extraordinary animation.

Spankenstein
02-06-2003, 05:31 AM
Lackluster and kinda boring. Totally devoid of any meaningful creativity.

OMG ROBOTS ARE GOING TO BE ENSLAVED BY HUMANITY? Who cares. It's a tired story, and unless you tell it in a really fresh way, no amount of splattered brains or boobies is gonna make a difference.

These matrix stories need to be specific character stories, since the actual sci-fi behind the matrix is hackneyed cliche that has been trodden to death.

Stahlberg
02-06-2003, 05:44 AM
I think any machine that has to move around in the real world 'on its own', that is without constant oversight and under the control of a human, will have to make value judgements all the time, and will have to have a certain order of intelligence, in order to reach decisions.
Like for instance a street cleaning robot between 2 large trash heaps - it has to decide which one to take first, even if it doesn't matter at all in the long run. And it has to decide quickly, otherwise time is wasted. If no decision is reached the robot will freeze, inactive. And there may be thousands of little decisions like that each day.

Emotions help in reaching quick decisions based on observing very fine nuances. The robot might 'feel' that one pile looks slightly more 'attractive' or fun to clean up (you have to make fulfilling its tasks pleasurable I think).

But on the other hand, I think that the dystopia painted by the Matrix - however enjoyable I found the movie and this short - and all the other similar dystopias in science fiction history - is totally unrealistic. It could never happen this way. When we're good enough at programming to give AI's decision-making skills and emotions like the above, we'll be way past the point of making sure no normally functioning robot ever harms a human on purpose. There will be many levels of safety-protocols involved. Automatic shutdown would result if an AI tried harming a human. (And if it ever did happen we certainly wouldn't destroy all robots - cars are the biggest killers and maimers of humans ever, but no politician would be suicidal enough to try to abolish them.)

Now what IS a danger is if the AI's ever start designing themselves, then look out, we're in trouble.

Cman
02-06-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by kraal
ok like i said earlyier i likoed the animation and love the matrix i too watched it as an audience member and not an artist....after reading an earlier post it makes sence...i was thinking that the images of the robots and other historical tradgeties bothered me cause it was just scenes from history with robots...now when i put it in context of the matrix maybe my history is all faked bassed on what the robots programed me to think or remeber

LOL! That's cool - it didn't even cross my mind to how this would link up with Matrix storyline - and I think you nailed it!
:thumbsup:

Agent D
02-06-2003, 05:58 AM
Well put, GrMac13, Stahlberg.

To me, what makes The Matrix so good is not the plot or "science" fiction aspect of it, but the brilliant action, filming, characters, and overall style of the movie. I'm just turned off by the complete unrealisticness of this Animatrix short, but I will check out the others when they're released.

*Edit*
I was just thinking of another thing that really didn't fit (to me) with the Movie. The AI in The Matrix was quite alien and ruthless, almost completely devoid of emotion. I got the impression that the AI was quite different than humanity, and saw humans as a hinderance or as a liability. This was apparent when Agent Smith was describing humans as a virus which destroyed and altered it's environment to survive, etc. The robots in The Second Renaissance Pt. 1 WERE human in every way, just electronic versions of us. I realize that they could have changed themselves over time, but that doesn't fit with their human like behavior in this animation...

MakoHaze
02-06-2003, 05:58 AM
Has anyone else noticed how the animation looked Incredibly similar to that of "Ghost in the Shell"? I'm curious to find out how many people who'd worked on GitS worked on the production of this episode.

It especially reminded me of GitS when the robot was murdering its female owner, when it crushed her skull. Very similar to a few key scenes from GitS in the way it was drawn, and portrayed... almost like the head was some kind of Zip Lock bag of spaghetti sauce being burst open - if you don't mind the crude analogy.

monotypic
02-06-2003, 06:04 AM
yeah.. it has its flaws... but its soo enjoyable.. that i'm willing to forgive them for a few moments to live in this universe.

wow.. i was just thinking that!! yeah.. has the same feel to it.
i guess it woulda made sense for them to hire in project ig..
did they actually do that or is that speculation?

MakoHaze
02-06-2003, 06:25 AM
Pure Speculation... but... we can't be wrong. I mean, look at it. Somebody's the same... an art director, animator... heck, maybe the director did hire on the entire team, but there's no way that look is coincidence. I'll investigate :D

Meaty
02-06-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by monotypic
yeah.. it has its flaws... but its soo enjoyable..

OF COURSE it has flaws, i mean, they're only human, or are they ;-) hehehe

hehe, Stahlberg, i like your reference to Buridian's Ass =] however, no two things in the physical world are identical... and supposing that they were so similar that they could not be told apart, then could have the switch to use a random seed when all other things are equal to make a quick decision.

One thing that confused me was why was the movie so jaded towards the favor of the robots. I mean the logical conclusion is to side with the humans. Duh, you can't have robots attacking people. But the obvious comparisions to some of the most terrible atrocities in human history seem to want to viewer want to be on the side of the robots. That is one I cant really figure out. If I am supposed to be cheering for the humans, why compare their actions to the eslavement of the Jews, the Holocaust, Tienemen Square... etc?

Flaviosen
02-06-2003, 06:40 AM
u probly aint suposed to side with the robots....matrix is only a cold scifi reallity....as i see it the story line in the first ep is just there to show us why the robots made the revolt....not too go down on the humans for beeing human....

got luv the animations and modeling.....cant wait for the next one

GRMac13
02-06-2003, 06:57 AM
I see your point Stahlberg. Still I'd like to have learned more about the evolution of the man-machine relationship. Like I stated in an earlier post, I think it would have been interesting to see all the tension it caused when robots began taking away all the humans (working-class) jobs. We see this happening now (on a much smaller scale) whith industrial bots putting many factory workers out of business.

Originally posted by Meaty
One thing that confused me was why was the movie so jaded towards the favor of the robots. I mean the logical conclusion is to side with the humans. Duh, you can't have robots attacking people. But the obvious comparisions to some of the most terrible atrocities in human history seem to want to viewer want to be on the side of the robots. That is one I cant really figure out. If I am supposed to be cheering for the humans, why compare their actions to the eslavement of the Jews, the Holocaust, Tienemen Square... etc?

Same here. They use the same device that Kubrick did in AI. What responsibilty to we have to a "being" that we create? Personally I think the holocaust and Tienemen Sq. references were too absurd to be effective at garnering empathy for the robots. Can you really compare those real-life atrocities (where real people were murdered) to that of an artifical being? Had the short been more character driven, maybe told from an individual robot's perspective it could have been more effective. Otherwise, what reason do we have to feel bad for the robots? If the robots weren't shaped like people, would the scenes have been as effective?

Personally, I would have liked the short to have been more sympathetic to the humans' condition. Maybe showing how the robots put alot of people out of work causing an immense amount of poverty in the lower classes. That in turn could have caused a revolt by the lower classes against the machines which would have resulted in a war on the lower class by the elite class who need the machines to sustain their wealth. Maybe they could've used the robots to wage the war and after a point the 'bots turn on the elite as well. Just thinking out loud.:shrug:

Of course, this is only the first film, so maybe the reason for them painting humanity so badly will be revealed later on. I just didn't understand it from this one short.

skello
02-06-2003, 07:38 AM
some of you guys may have seen these already...i found this and some other animatrix stills at this linkhttp://www.catsuka.com/interf/actu/animatrix/img/anime_gallery_osiris_1cl.jpg

http://www.catsuka.com/interf/new_index.html

belail
02-06-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by GRMac13
Personally I think the holocaust and Tienemen Sq. references were too absurd to be effective at garnering empathy for the robots. Can you really compare those real-life atrocities (where real people were murdered) to that of an artifical being?

I think that comment is one of the center pieces of this whole short, what are own perceptions off what constitutes life. You say that the tank scene had no real impact because a no real life was as stake which is what you can also imagine the driver of the tank was thinking when he ran over the robot (I think that is one of the main reasons why the Tienemen Square connection was used, because in the actual event the guy in the tank tried avoid running over the lone protestor whereas the driver in TSR was going straight through a mob without slowing down). The machine on the other hand would have had a different opinion as they definately see themselves as real. There is where The Matrix goes from what is the difference between a dream world if all you feel is electrical impulses to what is the difference between a human and a machine if all thought is electrical impulses.

So maybe in the end this short was meant more to point out our own preconceptions about what makes up a living being. I certainly believe that a machine could be made that could be considered alive which is why I saw the actions that the humans were taking as horrific (but beleivable, we've done it once to a race we considered inferior before so there's no reason to think that it wouldn't happen again).

You were asking as well why would man bother to make such an advanced machine if all they were going to do was meanial labour. Well the simple answer ot that would be purely to see if it could be done. There's the line in The Matrix, "we marvelled in our magnificence as we gave birth to A.I." Making a form of consieceness like that is sort of one of those great technological mile stones like walking on the moon or acheiving perfect photorealism in 3d. Sure it didn't need to be done but it was done because it makes people feel like we're on step closer to reaching the peak. Then, of course, now that you've made AI what do you do with it? Use its advanced brain by giving it a job in government. Hell no, what would a machine know about running human affairs, give it something simple to do. Turn it into a product because after all, who wouldn't want to own the latest curiosity and machines that intelligent would be the perfect excuse for humanity to give up work and just live life.

Also (finally, I think) I noticed that some people have expressed annoyance over the fact that this short seems to be changing their views of the characters and the way the story plays. I say, 'good.' For me the story has become more interesting now that it has become more grey than black and white. Do the humans really no what happened? Is Neo being used by Morpheus through deceit? Are the machines protecting a secret instead of fighting a war? All this just makes me crave the sequels even more than before.

Sorry if this seems very rambly, I don't post much on forums and a lot of this tuff has floating around in my head for a few days now. Doesn't help that I'm a big Iain Banks fan (who writes about a future ruled benevontly by AI in a hedonistic society, the case of the Animatrix the machines were trying to become the Culture but the humans wouldn't go for it) and I just saw Bowling for Columbine which deals with the subject of fear quite well.

Yeesh, this isn't even eveything I had to say, I need to stop thinking, its giving me headaches.

urgaffel
02-06-2003, 04:54 PM
GrM13: The complexity of the AI would have to be enormous, and I just can't see a reason for making machines so "human-like". The robot that killed it's owners did so because it didn't want to "die."

The way I understood it, was that it didn't want to be sentenced to "death". I don't know why it revolted against it's owners. However, at the hearing, Br-whatever-it-was stated that it didn't want to die. In other words, it didn't want to be sentenced to death.

Another thing you people seem to be forgetting is the learning factor. What do we know about the way they (the robots) were constructed? Maybe they had advanced learning capabilities, helping them to adapt and above all, evolve.

neonhomer
02-06-2003, 06:01 PM
I didn't know it but this short was written by the wachowski brothers. So i hope they will "fix" some of the problems people have with it on the next short. For screenshots from all the shorts check out:
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/animatrix_html.html

Infinity3d4life
02-06-2003, 09:21 PM
I can't wait for the 3d animated one.. Me personally i just appreciate that i got something for free.. The artwork in it was great...

GRMac13
02-07-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by belail
I think that comment is one of the center pieces of this whole short, what are own perceptions off what constitutes life. You say that the tank scene had no real impact because a no real life was as stake which is what you can also imagine the driver of the tank was thinking when he ran over the robot (I think that is one of the main reasons why the Tienemen Square connection was used, because in the actual event the guy in the tank tried avoid running over the lone protestor whereas the driver in TSR was going straight through a mob without slowing down). The machine on the other hand would have had a different opinion as they definately see themselves as real. There is where The Matrix goes from what is the difference between a dream world if all you feel is electrical impulses to what is the difference between a human and a machine if all thought is electrical impulses.

Very good observations, especially about the underlying theme of "The Matrix". One thing I have to say is that although the short intends to have the viewer question his/her perceptions of what constitutes life, I don't think they emphasized it well enough. They simply made a crude attempt at having us empathize with the 'bots by putting them in situations that we've seen real humans endure (ie: the holocaust and Tienemen sq.). However, they made no attempt at revealing the depth and complexity of the machines' conciousness. As a human being who values human life above all else, this just didn't impact me. To me they were just machines; I didn't feel sorry for them. I would have felt more compassion for a bunch of dogs or cats because I have a more intimate knowledge of how thier minds work. IMO, a more effective way of creating compassion for the robots would have been to centralize the film on one or two characters (like Speilberg's 'AI' for example). Maybe a look into what drove the first robot to kill his owner. The short was very "epic" for a 10 minute film and the themes it covered were alot more complex than a few shots could address. I would have enjoyed it much more had they preceeded the revolution with an intimate look into the mind of the machine versus the mind of man. Then again, it does fit into the "sci-fi lite" style of the Matrix so maybe I am expecting too much.

Originally posted by belail
So maybe in the end this short was meant more to point out our own preconceptions about what makes up a living being. I certainly believe that a machine could be made that could be considered alive which is why I saw the actions that the humans were taking as horrific (but beleivable, we've done it once to a race we considered inferior before so there's no reason to think that it wouldn't happen again).

The idea of artificial life is a tough nut to crack. Life is hard word to define in and of itself. One definition is "something capable of the functions of metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism." In other words, a self-contained entity that can operate and exist without outside influences. I agree that we may be capable of producing such a being, but the question is "why"? Which leads me to your next quote.

Originally posted by belail
You were asking as well why would man bother to make such an advanced machine if all they were going to do was meanial labour. Well the simple answer ot that would be purely to see if it could be done. There's the line in The Matrix, "we marvelled in our magnificence as we gave birth to A.I." Making a form of consieceness like that is sort of one of those great technological mile stones like walking on the moon or acheiving perfect photorealism in 3d. Sure it didn't need to be done but it was done because it makes people feel like we're on step closer to reaching the peak. Then, of course, now that you've made AI what do you do with it? Use its advanced brain by giving it a job in government. Hell no, what would a machine know about running human affairs, give it something simple to do. Turn it into a product because after all, who wouldn't want to own the latest curiosity and machines that intelligent would be the perfect excuse for humanity to give up work and just live life.

Very controversial topic. To do something "just to see if it could be done" is IMO a horrible excuse to do anything. There needs to be a reason for everything otherwise it's a big waste of time and serves no purpose other than to stroke one's ego. You gave the example of the moon mission. There was more to that than to "just see if it could be done." There is a huge benefit for mankind to expand his world beyond this small planet. Space colonization, mining, advanced communtications, scientific and medical research, etc. are all possible due to the moon mission and the space program in general. It was alot more than an ego trip. Even photoreal 3D is not simply done for the sake of it. It's useful in creating seamless visual effects to provide a more captivating movie experience for the audience. Or in visualizing a product or design before it's created.

Now there may be a good reason for creating an autonomous artifical being, but I personally can't think of many. I could see creating some "dumb" yet efficient robotics for mundane, everyday tasks. But why create a being that is as intelligent (or more intelligent) than a human being? When it gets to the point where robots do all of the work and all of the thinking, what good are humans anymore? How will we pass our time? Also, what happens when millions are put out of work because the corporations figure they could cut costs by purchasing the latest robots? To me, the idea of AI the way it was presented in the Animatrix was to serve the purposes of the elite class, making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Before we could exist in such a society we would have to abolish poverty and class systems, and that will never happen. It really bothers me that they didn't explain what became of the people whose jobs were taken away by the robots. Were they slaughtered as well?

Sieb
02-07-2003, 01:54 AM
I think there is alot of good stuff flying around in here. But I just wanted to make one comment to GRMac13.. What your saying makes sense at how crude it seems to use past images. I just wanted to emphisise that its the first episode, and by the way it was constructed, it was a collage of footage and information, most likely dug up long after the war for Zions archives. We are looking "back" into history and how they think things transpired from the footage at hand.

Man has proved time and again that it will just repeat history if given the chance and drive. I think this does a good job of showing that. Man has advanced far enough to have robots do all the work, and pats himself on the back for this achievement. Then, once robots realize there is potential for more, man strikes out. Remember that the society degraded with the class seperation.

I think this first episode was meant to lay out a rough outline of how things transpired at a rapid pace. Granted they didnt go into any detail on how machines became self-aware, but that could have been achieved in countless ways (self-programing, software updates, etc... ). But I dont think that was the point of the episode. I think the point was just to show, this is how it apparently started from what we know, how man degraded and brought upon its eventual destruction. There has to be a catalyst that forces the machines to strike out. They were created by man to do mans bidding, rose up and outpaced man, man gets jelouse, man lashes out over his inferiority, machines get fed up and turn the table around on man - enslaving man for the machines bidding.

This episode was just a preface to what lies ahead, it wasn't meant to be read into, wasn't meant to explain everything, just to strike emotions for machines. And if anything, for man himself. It says right in the beginning that man caused his own demise. I think its more sympathy for the human race that is putting itself in a position as a whole, for extinction. The next episodes will probably go into actual detail of the machines themselves.

You have to keep in mind though, the machines had to become aware of self-worth and conscience somewhere to be able to understand humans enough to create the matrix itself. And I am sure there is an actual explaination somewhere in the series to pinpoint this change. Not just the servant droid, but an evolution of A.I. on the machines part.

Someone mentioned earlier an Amoeba. I believe even an Amoeba has a level of self-preservation, like a virus or white blood cell, it will attack what threatens it. Not quite conscience, but awareness. I am sure something like that was programed into robots. Like worker droids, they aren't much usefull if they just stand there and let stuff fall on them and destroy them. Thats a loss of money and productivity, so something had to be there already and spawned into something else.

I think I am rambeling now but those are just some ideas of mine that were running around while I was going through this thread. :)

D. Phoenix
02-07-2003, 03:10 AM
Hmm...

This is starting to look like Exo Squad plot-wise, minus the space combat that is.

(That's a good thing mind you.)

An impressive display of the world of the Matrix.

Spankenstein
02-19-2003, 05:55 AM
Uh... I am pretty sure Production IG was hired on to create a short. I dont know which they are doing, or when we will see it. I even think I saw Shinichiro Watanabe's name attached, but I could be on crack.

pomru
02-19-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Spankenstein
Uh... I am pretty sure Production IG was hired on to create a short. I dont know which they are doing, or when we will see it. I even think I saw Shinichiro Watanabe's name attached, but I could be on crack.
According to the info on The Animatrix website, Production IG isn't credited for creating any of the shorts, but it's still possible that they contributed a few shots here and there... You weren't on crack; Shinichiro Watanabe (of Cowboy Bebop fame) is indeed one of the directors who worked on the project. Here's list of credits Warner Bros. put up on the website:

The Final Flight of The Osiris
written by Andy and Larry Wachowski
computer animation design and production by Square USA, Inc.
directed by Andy Jones

The Second Renaissance: Part 1
written by Andy and Larry Wachowski
animation and production design by Studio 4C
directed by Mahiro Maeda

The Second Renaissance: Part 2
written by Andy and Larry Wachowski
animation and production design by Studio 4C
directed by Mahiro Maeda

Kid's Story
written by Andy and Larry Wachowski
animation and production design by Studio 4C
directed by Shinichiro Watanabe

Program
written by Yoshiaki Kawajiri
animation and production design by Madhouse
directed by Yoshiaki Kawajiri

World Record
written by Yoshiaki Kawajiri
animation and production design by Madhouse
directed by Takeshi Koike

Beyond
written by Koji Morimoto
animation and production design by Studio 4C
directed by Koji Morimoto

Detective Story
written by Shinichiro Watanabe
animation and production design by Studio 4C
directed by Shinichiro Watanabe

Matriculated
written by Peter Chung
animation and production design by DNA
directed by Peter Chung

Stimpy
02-19-2003, 10:03 AM
tiny bit more of info i had flying around...


- Mahiro Maeda (BLUE SUBMARINE 6, etc.)
- Yoshiaki Kawajiri (NINJA SCROLL, WICKED CITY, etc.)
- Takeshi Koike (PARTY 7, etc.)
- Shinichiro Watanabe (COWBOY BEBOP, MACROSS PLUS, etc.)
- Koji Morimoto (MEMORIES, NOISEMAN, AKIRA, etc.)
- Peter Chung (AEON FLUX, etc.)

However, they were all Produced (in the film sense of the word) by Michael Arias who was working with both the Wachowski Bros. and each of the directors, as well as overseeing the actual production which was split up between 3 animation studios, Studio 4C (Tokyo), DNA (Seoul), and Madhouse Studios (Tokyo).

The only other project in the series is the on done by the late Square USA, using the pipeline built for Final Fantasy.

santiago
02-19-2003, 02:22 PM
Someone wrote:

One definition [of life] is "something capable of the functions of metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

I think you could define fire like that as well.


I am still dissapointed with this first episode. I have principals, and I would be extremely careful with using real world historic events to dramatize a fictional story, or anything for that matter.

If the animators responsable for this film had chosen to use footage of other real events to which they could be more sensitive, say.... the raping of one of their mothers, the assassination of one of their brothers, showing how he was chopped into pieces, the screaming, the blood, etc. ... I think they would have been much more careful with dealing with that footage, because it means something to them.

Well, those historic events mean something to many people also. If you want to use images of the suffering of real people in the past, be careful, respect, demonstrate an understanding of those events...


otherwise, it's like you take the holocaust as clip art, and just copy and paste for to make the buck.

This animation was made carelessly

The Cross
02-19-2003, 11:13 PM
After reading all of your thoughts on this clip,i looked at it. It did blow me away in a freakish sence. It is cold cold cold and i really felt sorry for the human like feminine machine that cried "Please don't do this i'm real!!" As those humans were mashing it up. Even my sub woofer made creepy tones at that part.

As for originality, i think we all in some point imagined Robots or A.I. living amoungst humans and being able to think, and express what they feel. To myself i always imagined that's how cybertron turned out to be.

I recall someone wondering why the humans Scortched the sky.

If i'm not mistaken morpheus said the machines got most of their energy from the sun, and "we" thought it would put an end to the machines powersource's. Eventually it lead to the machines using our bodies as batteries. And the body was of no use to them if the mind isn't active. So they created 1 Matrix for every human body in their custidy, which was most of us.

I found this episode of the Animatrix very disturbing, and i think that's what they wanted everyone to feel. I also think this film is great for watching with a group of friends that can handle it. Cause it would result in a fasinating disscussion afterwards.

As for the historical comments. The violence is sensative not only to 1 race. This film sided all of mankind against machines. It really softened my heart towards the machines, just as simular real life occurances did.

I admire the fact that the story telling stands on a centered point of view, and we to ourselves can side with the machines or Humans. Although the machines did offer a sign of peace. Make no mistake though. I still want to see Neo whoop ass.

If this story was told through a camera with live actors and props directed as it is. I think it would be fasinating. Unlike the machines in the Movie A.I. The Matrix Machines were more successful.

I think the clip is everything they wanted it to be. And it is relitively fasinating.

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