How to leave the monochrom painting ?

[Lunatique]

When doing monochrome, you have to remember that unless the object is the same surface all over (for example, a plaster statue), the different surfaces will have different base values. For example, someone wearing a black coat--his coat will be at a darker base value than his skin (even if he's African).

Part of your problem right now is that you are not thinking about the value difference between colors, so all your colors are using the similar values (except for the dark red on his glove). Second thing is, you are jumping way ahead of yourself. At this point, you need to buckle down and simply just learn to analyze and render values correctly. What you're doing is trying to run before you can crawl. Remember those primitive shape rendering exercises I showed you before? Have you done those yet? I really think you should at least do a good job on those before you attempt anything else.

Adding color variation has mostly to do with bounced light from surrounding areas. You need to know where your character is to determine what color variations to put on him. Also, some people like to add color noise to make things more interesting, and those are typically an artistic choice--everyone has different approaches and reasons for adding them. It's similar to how photographers use color filters or white-balancing to influence the colors in a shot--so that it doesn't look simply "normal."

[brox]

Hello Lunatique and thank you so much for your reply.

@Value Differene between colors:
Hmmm... o.k. this is my problem I think I did something missunderstand.

If we talk from the VALUE, what is it exactly ?
I usually think in this three parts:

a) Hue: for me it´s the color
b) Saturation: hmm, yeah, if the color is more or less saturated
c) Brightness: Darker or brighter

Setting all these 3 parts, and I will get my BASE.
Hmm, well I thought, if I would paint as example the gloves, and I choosed for the gloves one Base color, that´s it.
But now it seems to be that this is wrong, because you teach me, that one Base only for the gloves, isn´t enough ?

Puuhhh... that means, that painting the gloves (as example) will set ahead to have more different
Base colors which vary in stauration, and brightness except HUE ? Or is this wrong ? Can you change the hue too ?

Hmm, I think to know that will be the key for me... and I will make different tests.


The gloves:
Yeah, I played around with the layer from the gloves, and I gave this layer more contrast.
So, if we talk from values of the colors, do you speak in variation from the contrast only ?


@Primitive shape rendering tests:
oh yeah, I did it... and you are right, this is the starting and so I could learn and see
how I can sculpt a form with colors on 2d. that was for me my first good experience, and I was
very happy about to see how I can get shapes and different surfaces by using 4 colors only ...


after painting primitves alone, I´ve tried to paint a head with primitives, and thinking in primitives for other subjects.
As example, for this exercise of this figure, I thought cylindrical for the legs, a box for the head etc.
but of cours, you are right.... I wanna run before I can crawl.. lol;

I can´t wait to paint more than primitives, and so I decided to make tests with this figure..
lol; and yeah, a lot of problems to handle this....

Hmm, but the key to get out of monochrom painting is, because I didn´t worked with more different bases ?
Or ?


@Adding color variation has mostly to do with bounced light from surrounding areas
Hmm, so would you prefer to paint at first a background ?
And after that I can better determine the colors from the surrounding areas ?

Huiii... there is soooo much I have to recognize... but however, it´s so much fun and so much time I can make
studies and exercises..... thank you for every little help and suggestion,

I really appreciate that,
thank you, thank you, thank you....
bernhard

[Lunatique]

Hoo... .boy, this is going to take a while, but I'll try my best to explain. I'm not going to do it by addressing each of your questions, because at the moment, some of your questions comes from misunderstandings. I'll just show you how "I" think about color and values, and my procedure for working with them.

First of all, value means the level of brightness/darkness of something.

Now, think about color and value this way:
Here's a sculpture, but it's been painted with colors, so it's not just the same color all over as most sculptures we think of:
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/1987.77.jpg

When we convert that image to black and white, notice the obvious difference between the hair color's local value compared to the skin? That is what I was talking about. Different colors can be very different in values:
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/1987.77-bw.jpg

Here's another sculpture, where the surface color is the same all over:
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/galenug39.jpg

Now when we convert it to black and white, you don't notice any obvious change of value due to the inherent differences in different colors' local values.
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/galenug39-bw.jpg


Now, look at how values and colors affect how something looks:
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/values1.jpg

http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/values2.jpg

http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/values3.jpg

[Lunatique]

Now look at these examples for color variations and bounced light:
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Scythe_Wolf-color_variation.jpg

http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/moonlight_lovers-color_variations.jpg

[Lunatique]

Now I'll show you my current method for approaching a new painting:

1) Get the composition/design worked out in the drawing.
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Foxglove%20Carries%20Out%20Assasination-07.jpg

2) Establish the direct lights. Make sure the lighting shapes is working (where the shadows fall, and where the bright areas are).
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Foxglove%20Carries%20Out%20Assasination-08.jpg

3) Add ambient/bounced lights. Make sure areas not lit by direct light, but I want to still have some lighting, is getting secondary lighting sources.
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Foxglove%20Carries%20Out%20Assasination-09.jpg

4) Get the cast shadows in there. Now this is the important part--up to this point, I've treated the entire image as if it's one surface, with no local color/value differences, as if the whole scene was made out of white plaster or another uniform surface.
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Foxglove%20Carries%20Out%20Assasination-10.jpg

5) Now I add the different color values in there. Normally, I'd do this on a multiply layer with colors, but since this image is supposed to be semi-monochromatic, you ony see the added values differences instead of colors as well. I also add form shadows too at this stage.
http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/goodies/tutorials/cgtalk_lessons/Foxglove%20Carries%20Out%20Assasination-14.jpg

The important thing I want to show here is the between step 4 and 5. The difference is mostly in the addition of local color values. It breaks up the surface so now it's not just one uniform surface/value.

I hope all this helped you understand things better. My lunch has gotten cold, and been reheated once already. I better eat it now before it goes cold again. :D

[smia]

thanks for your work lunatique. Very interesting to read and see how you set up this scene.
Best wishes, hope to see more of those things ;-)
...sven

[brox]

Thank you sooooo much. I have to read and study this and will answer as soon as I can.... I am speakless at the moment... and need time to work this out.... I am sure I will have some more questions... :)

Thank you, thank you, thank you..... :thumbsup:
bernhard

[wormtongue]

@ lunatique: thanks for that wonderful tip. :buttrock:

[Lunatique]

You guys are welcome. Color and values are two of the hardest things to get right, and I still struggle with them everytime I work on a new piece. It's realy a never-ending battle. If you guys have more questions, don't hesitate to use this thread as a general thread to ask about colors and values. Me and other will try our best to answer them.

[brox]

Hello Lunatique !

Okay, here it comes, from the theory to the practice. I decided to start with primitives you recommend me.

http://www.bernhardrieder.com/ask/1try.jpg

@Difference between color and values:
ok, so if that means the brightness/darkness of a choosen color, I think than it´s the same like contrast. Or don´t you think ?

@Picking your colors:
It would be very interesting, how you pick your colors ?
If I choose one base color, and than I pick a brighter color with less saturation for the higlights, and other different values (brightness/darkness), I don´t get this color differences I should get or I want to get. Mainly my choosen colors look "flat".


But if I select this "flat" painted part and I set a higher contrast, than I get harder differences in the values. Hmmm but I am not sure if it´s recommend to use more contrast... sometimes the whole painting looks like I am using "burning colors".

What do you think about ?

@Multiply Layer:
I´ve tried to paint this table example with your method. And yes, I thought it must be a very good idea to use a multiply layer for the colors, on the top of all other layers. Hmm, but I could figure out, that it is very hard to use it for a beginner like me.

The reason why:
If the bouncing light layer isn´t really painted with some white, you´ll never get the base color you have choosen, because its to dark. So, I always have to fix the ambient / bounced light layer and adding more white to it. This means working on two layers at the same timne is for a beginner like me a little bit confusing.

But I think I do understand your way. However, take for granted you really know where you have to paint the bouncing ambient lights... wopaaa, that´s a big challenge...



@Mixing color:
I think one very important part is now to know, how I should mix the colors.

I could a read a very good theory from Natascha (http://www.tascha.ch/) about color picking.
And yes, I think this is one way I want to do, describes below:

For Base: Choose your color what ever you want
Highlights: From your choosen Base color get brighter, and less saturated

Soo, that´s the typically start.

But I am sure, between these two colors, you mix a lot of new colors, with more different color values (Contrast).
AND THIS WOULD BE SOOO INTERESTING TO KNOW, HOW YOU MAKE THIS ?
How you mix your colors during your painting ?

For the shadows it´s the same in the opposite way.
Shadows: Pick the bg or ambient color - get darker and more saturation.

Huiii, I know there are a lot of questions, but I think there is a basement I should know about .... and of course it´s all a lot of practice.
Okay, thx a lot for every little help and suggestions,
bernhard



p.s: oohh, would be great to know what is wrong with my painted example above... ignoring the excact geometry and dimension of these training objects.
Showing up mistakes will bring me progress... and every little part you tell me that is wrong, helps me in learning and understanding more and more. thx a lot !

[Lunatique]

When I pick colors, I simply decide on my base color first, then I would simply pick a color that represents the color of the light source, and then use that to lightly paint the highlights, so the opacity control of my Wacom Pen automatically mixes the two colors together. For shadows, I sometimes just pick a darker value of the base color, but might vary the saturation depending on what the environment lighting situation is like.

I really feel you are still trying to run before knowing how to walk. If I was your art teacher, I would tell you to stop thinking about colors completely at this point, and all I would give you to work with would be a pencil or charcoal, a piece of paper, and then sit you down in front of some primitive shapes with lighting on them, and make you draw them as photorealistically as possible. I will not let you touch color at all until you have accomplished that. But I'm not your art teacher and I can't make you do anything--I can only suggest.

Seriously--go back and look at that link I posted before of the primitive exercises. Compare what those guys did to what you did--there's a huge difference. I want you to be able to match the quality of what those guys did before even attempting to mess around with colors. Being able to depict shapes, values, and perspective accurately is the most basic skill an artist should have. Until you have attained that basic skill, you shouldn't be worrying about colors. Also, go back and read the Loomis books again--particular the sections on perspective, because you are currently not following any rules of perspective at all. Use the universal methods of point perspective--that's what's expected of any artist that wants to depict representational images accurately.

Trust me, if you follow my recommendations, you'll improve much faster than doing what you were doing.

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