Softimage 3D?

[pensart]

I'm also a lightwave user and also currious about xsi. Give us some very good reasons why we would switch ( now that it is affordable )

[Nonproductive]

Just to clarify (sorry pensart ;) ) There is no way I will be affording XSI anytime soon ;)
Softimage 3D, however - is more what my wallet can handle - and what I am interested in feedback on. More as a companion to LW then a replacement...

[ggg]

I think Nonproductive is asking about 3D not XSI.

To be honest I would only move from those other apps to SI|3D if I couldn't trade in my app towards XSI, and wanted to upgrade from SI|3D to XSI one day.

PS There are some good earlier threads on LW->XSI from others that switched, and on 3D compared to XSI, here and on xsi base.

[Miyazaki]

To me its like Avid/SI left SI3D and concentrates on XSI. Studios like ILM, for example, used SI3D as their main animation app and now switching to XSI.
I doubt that they(SI/Avid) want to develop for SI3D any more. Instead of this, they convince their customers to take a look at XSI.
And that`s the right way to make SI and XSI more popular(my opinion). I would do the same.
I was interested in SI3D(powerful tool,like it`s straight forward interface(ok old-fashioned dos-look, but efficient and eye friendly!), workflow, animation abilities,MR-Integration, price... ), but cause of it`s small user community and that it seems to die out....?!?! :shrug:
Everywhere you go you are confronted with XSI, but what about SI3D?
What do SI/XSI-user think about it? Any suggestions?

[ggg]

its likely because ILM and others still used SI|3D that they still developed it

[Mazer]

I'm also interested about si 3d and the only review is a litle 1 page review at www.computerarts.co.uk :shrug:
But it looks like its on the end of its life... and there is no demo so... wonder if avid will replace this offer with something in the same price range.
An Xsi light or something... or Xsi v 1.0 :shrug:

[Nonproductive]

I have the issue of Computer Arts with their review (or was it 3D World? Hrmmm, have to go pull it out of the stack again). Under "negatives" they listed "Does it have a future?"

I appreciate all the responses by the way! Miyazaki has pretty much summed up what was going through my mind when I posted initially. I am more of a 3D hobbyist. I have the XSI experience CD and frequently have to wipe it down because I drool all over it. The interface and workflow are amazing and it's feature set is incredible. However, I don't know of any way that someone with a "normal" income that doesn't use the app to make money can justify (or afford) to spend the cash for XSI. I guess I was kind of hoping that 3D was a "poor man's" XSI... :(

[raffael3d]

Softimage 3D was once the most sophisticated animation tool. It was the flgship product and first called "creative environment" and their main 3d product -till XSI came out. It was used in Juraissc Park, the Mask etc. Softimage 3D was the first software to introduce inverse kinematis (IK).
First it was only available on SGI, but after Microsoft pruchased Softimage it was ported also to NT. Under Microsoft Softimage started to develop the next generation 3d software, as they called it. It was named XSI and till version 1.5 you got XSI + Softimage 3D. When XSI reached version 2 it was also released on Linux and no longer sold together with Softimage 3D.
Around that time they cut heavily the price of Softimage 3D. Around 1990 it cost 90'000$ together with an SGI workstation.
today it's around 1'800$ (not sure what the exact price is today).

So in conclusion XSI is the next generation of Softimage 3D.
Softimage 3D is still widely used especially in asia where it seems to be the standard for games.

have a look at Softimage's history so the exact dates and to understand the transition between Softimage 3D and XSI:
http://www.softimage.com/Corporate/Press/Facts/16years.htm

[ggg]

I used SI 2.66 back in 96 then for a few years, I was an SI|3D evangelist, then left for Houdini 0.9 and later Maya 2 and tried SI|3D again recently for a very short bit.

Under negatives I would say that 3Ds toolset and workflow does not stack up to those other newer more recently developed apps you mentioned, and again that unless you can't trade in your current app to XSI, and don't plan to upgrade to XSI then I'd stick with the other apps considering its near same price and their advanced features. The lack of NLA and its limited area of construction history/semi-proceduralism might be frustrating to go back to from the NLA and procedural features of the other apps mentioned. Also if you don't already know SI|3D and won't be upgrading to XSI that's alot of time invested in learning a new app that may not upgrade past ver 4.
I have no idea if they will be offering an XSI light.

If you are planning on upgrading to XSI one day there are advantages as you will be able to apply a lot of the workflow, GUI arrangement knowledge, and some methods to use in XSI.
The similarites are enough that many accused summatra and version 1 of just being a different colored GUI for the old SI|3D, bu thsi will help you adapt if upgrading. They did have a point though, Summatra did not seem to the followup promise of Twister etc. to some of us so it would have been a step backwards from Houdini and Maya.

But XSI today is a different experience and its getting better. Compared to SI|3D, XSI is a very different workflow in its proceduralism and its Non-linear in most areas and this is advancing with every release.

IMO SI|3D is not a poor mans XSI, todays luxury car may have design cues from its past, but todays economy car has more in common with todays luxury car than that classic luxury car of the past.

If you can get that used car for less $ though...

[ThirdEye]

@ggg: You often named the word "proceduralism" in this thread, what do you mean? Thank you. :)

[ggg]

Its going to be as difficult as describing how to ride a bicycle as I don't program much, but I'll try.

proceduralism is not a history list like in PhotoShop
proceduralism is not construction history like in Maya
proceduralism is not relational modeling like in SI|3D

it seems like these but it is much more than that

my best basic but I guess confusing description is that

proceduralism is the abstract creation and description of something through a flexible, editable and non-linear and often adaptable process such as an algorithym for a shader, or a network/stack of mathematical functions, descriptors and modifiers in the generation of a model/object or animation of a shader, model, etc.

[ThirdEye]

well, i'm a bit confused now, probably more than before since i thought a construction history like in Maya or a history in PS was a good example of proceduralism. Is XSI famous NLanimation a good proceduralism example? :shrug:

BTW thank you very much ggg :wavey:

[ThE_JacO]

proceduralism is not sequential.
therefore stacks and histories are not procedural to the full extent.
An excellent example of proceduralism laid down in human readable form are GUIs using the tree paradigm.

Shake, XSI's FXtree, DS.. all the compositors tree structures are good examples.
also maya's shadernet or XSI's rendertree.

while in a linea history you can only reorder or delete operations, in a true procedural environment you can use one node (operation) to influence several other nodes, or simply recycle the same operation over and over always from the same node rather then repeating..

exmple:
in compositing you can take a color correction node and put its output into several other nodes, like a luma extract to extract a mask and a luminance correction.
you can then use the extracted luma and plug it as a mask node into the luminance correction node...
when modifying the color correction node you will influence all the nodes it inputs int, and this modification will be trasnmitted over thru all the connections (the famous inheritance of OO), but it WILL NOT influence everything you did after that operation except things that bear a connection of some kind (direct or inherited) to it.
sequential systema always propagate changes thru all the following operators.

proceduralism in 3D would be like:
extrude a polygon (smooth shift for the LW guys) by 10 units, perform whatever operations on the mesh (altering it's topology) and then, to extrude a new polygon by 10 units later on, just plug the extrusion node into that polygon selection.
AFAIK something similar is actually possible only in houdini.

While being unarguably the most powerful possible approach, proceduralism also has a cost in ease of use, houdini became "userfriendly" only very recently, thanks to the new "autobuilding" of the tree while you operate with easier and more visual tools, but it's still miles away from the ease of use of XSI or LW, and yet they couldn't seem to make their animation system any easy to use.

[ThirdEye]

Thank you very much, it sounds clear now :thumbsup:

[EdHarriss]

Originally posted by ggg
The lack of NLA ...


Regarding SI3D, it is a little know fact that there was NLA in the package. But it was only introduced a short while before XSI came out and many people didn't even know it was in there.

[Apoclypse]

however , don't undermine the power of Softimage 3d. It is still a very powerfull app if not old. It has aslew of options that XSi users are still clamoring for today. Such as Rigid body Dynamics, 3d painting, nurbs are way better in 3d than in XSi, some of the views such as Schematic view are just a little more streamlined in 3d than in XSi. This was why avid was distributing XSi with softimage 3d in the beginning because the program was essentially incomplete in many respects ( and still is compared to Softimage 3d ). In answering your question you come from a LW background so you are no stranger to quirky but powerfull apps and 3d is one of these. It's old so you have to understand that the logic back in 1990-95 was different that it is now. NLA wasn't an issue back then, neither was a construction history or a lot of waht is now considered essentiall ( thanks in part to max, people don't seem to give max credit for alot of things that they have brought to market, good and bad).

But don't get it twisted Softimage 3d is a very powerfull sysytem with a powerful animation system (IK and skinning and so on), the renderer is very powerfull and of outstanding quality( both the basic scanlibe and Mental Ray ofcourse). It supports a slew of scripting languages ( just like XSi) has quite a few options that allow you to do almost anything these new programs can except with some more work( it can do things that some of our most popular programs can't sometimes). It has a very popular and powerful toon shader which has been used in quite a few animes and diney flicks for quite some time. It does support poly modeling though it is not that best at it ( nurbs is its strength).

So I don't think you should stop from buying it just because it's old just be warned that you will have to do away with some things that you are probably used to. ( thhough lightwave is missing some features too so I don't you'll miss some of the things that other apps have.) Otherwise go for it is still worth far more than what Avid is charging for it, and even though it is burly it can still hold its own with many of todays more esoteric apps.

Also if you plan to get XSi at some point in the future 3d has the best exporter and can export almost all of the scene to XSi without having to rebuild things in XSi, like you have to do with other apps ( e.g. alias PA to Maya what a nightmare sometimes).
it exports bones and skinned modells I think and materials into XSi without problems for the most part. ( that is why softimage created the dotXSi format so that old 3d users could switch to XSi without losing data, though I'm glad to see it progress into other apps, softimage is slowly becoming relevant again).

[ggg]

Originally posted by EdHarriss
Regarding SI3D, it is a little know fact that there was NLA in the package. But it was only introduced a short while before XSI came out and many people didn't even know it was in there.
Sorry Ed you're right, I forgot.

Apoclypse good app comparison, although I think Maxes linear OP stack may have set a bad example, and good points made for SI|3D advantages, sometimes I forget how useful integrated 3d paint was.
I'd like all kinds of people to jump ship and try XSI.
Compared to the other apps mentioned though I still don't see a benifit, with all the time spent learnign a new app and the $ spent, to jumping to SI|3D if you're not intending to upgrade to XSI one day.

[ggg]

Originally posted by ThE_JacO
proceduralism is not sequential.
therefore stacks and histories are not procedural to the full extent.
An excellent example of proceduralism laid down in human readable form are GUIs using the tree paradigm.

While being unarguably the most powerful possible approach, proceduralism also has a cost in ease of use, houdini became "userfriendly" only very recently, thanks to the new "autobuilding" of the tree while you operate with easier and more visual tools, but it's still miles away from the ease of use of XSI or LW, and yet they couldn't seem to make their animation system any easy to use.
agreed, the char animation still needs lots of work


sorry ThirdEye_01, I wrote my answer pretty late at night.
Yes, I'm promoting it again, but instead of trying to explain it in words, this might make the advantages more apparent:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41510

[Miyazaki]

@Apoclypse
Thanx for the informations. Even if SI3d isn`t supported any more, Avid/SI offers an upgrade to XSI.
Any demos of SI3D out there?

[thedougal]

All this talk about proceduralism and no one mentions Houdini.
That's the ticket.
-k

[ggg]

it was mentioned a number of times :surprised

[dantea]

Does anyone know who was the first to offer node-based proceduralism?

[ggg]

dunno, there was a weird apple sound processing program I saw a long time ago that I think came before kinetix hyperwire(not procedural but nodal network), houdini, etc.

maybe nintendo pipedream ;)

good question. I'd bet Kim or others at Sidefx would know.

[ThE_JacO]

sideFX prism has attempted (with various degrees of success :) ) proceduralism since day0 if i'm not mistaken, and that can be dated way back.

only shortly before that there was some forgotten CAMlike app on SGI i think, but i don't even remember the name and i was maybe a bit too young to figure out WTF it was really doing :)

I don't have the faintest idea about kinetix products timeline so i wouldn't know if it's pre or post prism.

[ggg]

was it procedural at omnibus?

I saw some old screenshots on a page somewhere...
I'll find

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