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maX_Andrews
10-13-2006, 09:45 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/13/vista-license-to-only-allow-one-computer-transfer/

"Microsoft has now taken to limiting the number of times you can transfer your license legitimately to other computers. Unlike Windows XP, which previously allowed for unlimited license transfers between computers, Vista limits this transfer to a single time. As TechWeb reports, quoting the license for Windows Vista Home Basic (and other versions as well): "The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the 'licensed device.'"

http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/193300234

SunDog101
10-13-2006, 09:51 PM
I don't see the point of that restriction. I'm sure they will have a way to overide that eventually.

DarthWayne
10-13-2006, 10:07 PM
OK Let me play devils advocate here.

Lets say you've bought a nice new PC with VISTA installed. You then maybe have some sort of major hardware failure outside of your gaurentee, so off you go to buy the parts you need. Great! Vista has transfered your license...woo hoo!!!

Now.... a week later something else goes wrong and you need to replace say your motherboard, cpu and ram.....all of a sudden VISTA says its another pc and wont let you transfer the license for an operating systen you've paid for (either included in the price of your original PC, or as an added 'extra'.)

Thats seems a bit like selling tartan paint to people, meaning people may have to buy something they may already own, due to a restriction placed on them my Microsoft. Granted they are well within their rights to do so, but that doens't say that its a good thing now does it? Combine this with the reports of open GL having to work through a DX abstraction layer and not being able to turn the damn annoying Windows start up sound off and I can honestly say I won't buy it. But there will be many that will.

I know some may say that 3 PC faliures in a row doesn't happen very often...and a lot of times it doesn't but unfortunaly life is just full of people like myself. (So far this year 5 pc's of mine have blew in one way or another meaning either repair or total new PC.) Now if I'd bought a OS in January this year only for me to have to buy another license by the start of Feburary I'd be rightly a bit p*ssed off.

Wayne...

pgp_protector
10-13-2006, 10:14 PM
What about us that love to play with hardware ?

IestynRoberts
10-13-2006, 10:19 PM
Does this mean that if you wanted to format your computer and start affresh, you had to buy a new Licence?

pgp_protector
10-13-2006, 10:41 PM
FYI A link to the EULA for Vista

http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Ultimate_English_9d10381d-6fa8-47c7-83b0-c53f722371fa.pdf

And it has other fun like not allowing you to run it on more then 2 processers at a time :)

Licensed Device. You may install one copy of the software on the licensed device. You may
use the software on up to two processors on that device at one time.

MacManiax
10-13-2006, 11:05 PM
is this true? this sounds too ridiculous even for microsoft. People upgrade their computers more often these days right? ive had 3 computers over the last 2 years, with xp pro running on all of them. Vista should be useable for exleast 4 years until something new comes. So you can only upgrade one time in a 4 year span for that copy of vista. Hmm, im gonna wait around here for someone to change my mind as to why this is a good idea for the consumer. Why 2 processors, Microsoft knows there will be quad processor machines out there, not to mention the 8 proc. beast from Boxx, so CONsumers have to buy 2 copies of vista in the future to run a quad opteron. Oh well, all i need is xp pro and suse linux so this doesnt affect me at all.

sigh, i want to live on an island

pgp_protector
10-13-2006, 11:19 PM
is this true? this sounds too ridiculous even for microsoft. People upgrade their computers more often these days right? ive had 3 computers over the last 2 years, with xp pro running on all of them. Vista should be useable for exleast 4 years until something new comes. So you can only upgrade one time in a 4 year span for that copy of vista. Hmm, im gonna wait around here for someone to change my mind as to why this is a good idea for the consumer. Why 2 processors, Microsoft knows there will be quad processor machines out there, not to mention the 8 proc. beast from Boxx, so CONsumers have to buy 2 copies of vista in the future to run a quad opteron. Oh well, all i need is xp pro and suse linux so this doesnt affect me at all.

sigh, i want to live on an island


The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the “licensed device.”

and don't try to repair any problems with Vista :D


In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. For more information, see http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/userights. You may not
· work around any technical limitations in the software;

charleyc
10-13-2006, 11:21 PM
I think some of you are getting a little paranoid, read the WinXP Pro EULA. It says the same thing about 2 processors. If anything, I would take it to mean that the OS itself will not utilize more than 2 Processors, not that software running under it can't as I know of many people running Dual Dualcores and using all the processors. I will be interested to see what happens with the transferrence issue. Although I have to say that I tend to upgrade Windows on hardware long before I throw it out, which makes the whole issue a very unlikely problem.

RuinedMessiah
10-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Wow, this is truly a dick move. First they claim they are limiting the usability of pirate copies (which often directly relates to legitimate users spending hours on MS helplines trying in vain to get their legitimate copy working) and now they are saying it will only allow one hardware upgrade before the license dies on you.

Is it just me or is this a bunch of ****ing nonsense from a company that has become the industry standard. When your company has to give away money to avoid losing it, it's time to quit bitching about the 10-15% userbase that pirates OS's. And incidently, Microsoft, before you go compalining about the piracy in China, realize those people burn and package your software for $50 a month and have to pay over 150% (at least) of the US prices for the same thing they built.

Rick Flowers
10-13-2006, 11:38 PM
AH HA! I get it... It's a "profit" deal!

To quote Steve Martin in The Jerk.

charleyc
10-13-2006, 11:41 PM
...and now they are saying it will only allow one hardware upgrade before the license dies on you...

By this I assume you mean buy a new computer as 'hardware upgrade'.

pgp_protector
10-13-2006, 11:49 PM
By this I assume you mean buy a new computer as 'hardware upgrade'.

Or Motherboard Replacment

Me, I was looking at getting Vista for my little one due to the account controls that I love.
But wasn't planing on upgrading there system right away.

The OS should last a few years, I was thinking upgrade to Vista early next year, Upgrade the MoBo & Mem for Christmass next year, and maby the following year around there birthday.

With there new eula, I would have to buy a new copy of the OS for any major upgrades after the Christmass upgrade.

charleyc
10-13-2006, 11:50 PM
...And incidently, Microsoft, before you go compalining about the piracy in China, realize those people burn and package your software for $50 a month and have to pay over 150% (at least) of the US prices for the same thing they built.

This is really foolish thinking man. Doing a job one has been hired to do does not give them the right to steal from their employer.

MacManiax
10-13-2006, 11:51 PM
AH HA! I get it... It's a "profit" deal!

To quote Steve Martin in The Jerk.




haha, i guess i forgot, microsoft is just a business trying to make money, the decisions they make are designed to make them money not friends, so i guess they think they will make more from people who will buy another license than they would by catering to the people who wont, you cant blame a business for trying to make money i guess. I just want to move to an island.....

charleyc
10-13-2006, 11:58 PM
...With there new eula, I would have to buy a new copy of the OS for any major upgrades after the Christmass upgrade.


I guess this will depend on what Vista uses to determine what device it is registered to.

pgp_protector
10-14-2006, 12:02 AM
I guess this will depend on what Vista uses to determine what device it is registered to.

Well given that the first round of upgrades will be a New MoBo / CPU, it will probabbly determine that it's a new devicee.

maX_Andrews
10-14-2006, 12:23 AM
I think this will lead to increased piracy, as a lot of people will find it easier and cheaper to pirate a vista license than to buy a new one. And this limitation just gives extra incentive to hackers.

RuinedMessiah
10-14-2006, 01:45 AM
This is really foolish thinking man. Doing a job one has been hired to do does not give them the right to steal from their employer.

Tell you what, let's see you get paid $50 a month to build iPods and see the cheapest legal unit is no less than 5 months worth of wages. Or Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers complaining about chinese pirates when he wants $80 for his latest shitfest in the land his masters openly rape.

In the US? Yeah, piracy is a tad unforgivable. But in China where people work in impoverish conditions and the only console willing to take a chance in that region is the iQue, just another way for Nintendo to try and charge $50 for SNES games, then I say let them have a free OS here or there. Or god forbid, an MP3 every once in a while.

Spin99
10-14-2006, 02:49 AM
The one I really can't figure is? 2 PROCESSORS?
You must be joking.
You mean people won't be running quad cores in 5 years?
What then, where's Microsoft's vision?

Szos
10-14-2006, 03:03 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this?!?

[devil's advocate mode]

I mean seriously - MS has a MONOPOLY on desktop OSs. Why shouldn't
they limit it? It is in their best interest to make such limitations, since after all, 99.999% of the people out there don't have the technical knowledge to know or even care... and the ones that do care, just pass off this fairly large problem, with "oh, well there will be a crack to fix this". But those people are missing the point.

[/devil's advocate mode]

P_T
10-14-2006, 03:58 AM
In the US? Yeah, piracy is a tad unforgivable. But in China where people work in impoverish conditions and the only console willing to take a chance in that region is the iQue, just another way for Nintendo to try and charge $50 for SNES games, then I say let them have a free OS here or there. Or god forbid, an MP3 every once in a while.I really hate to say this but there are "other reasons" why sweatshops exist in China. I won't get into it because it'll just get off topic and political and all that.

Let's just say that there are plenty of rich people in China, and I'm talkin about FILTHY rich. There's a self made lady there who deals in recycled paper from the States and she's ranked higher than Oprah, actually she's the richest self made woman in the world. There're also plenty of overseas students from China here in Sydney who are fully equipped with an apartment, expensive clothings, PC and yes, even MP3 players like Ipod.

But anyway...

I was thinking about waiting for Vista launch before getting a new PC but not so sure now... I might just get one soon and get Ubuntu distro or something.

Spater
10-14-2006, 04:06 AM
I can't honestly see myself sticking with Windows if this is how its going to be.

3DDave
10-14-2006, 05:36 AM
XP 64 is just fine for me!

Kid Dynomite
10-14-2006, 05:52 AM
I mean seriously - MS has a MONOPOLY on desktop OSs

Do they? In the business world, MS definitely has a monoply. It's called Office.

But for Joe and Jane pc user, I don't think that's the case. They just use what OS is installed on their Dell or HP, which is always Windows. And 90% of the time, they're simply going to surf the web and check email, both of which can be done via a browser. Any OS can do that.

But imagine if this average user has to send their Dell in to the shop to get repaired, boom!, one license transfer gone. Then, another repair. Who's going to pick up the cost of having to buy a new Vista license? It's not going to be Dell. It's going to be the user. Eventually, Dell or HP, or whoever is going to feel the heat from customers who are angry at getting screwed. But, then again , maybe these OEM's will cut deals with Microsoft to avoid this situation...who knows.

But I personally find it hilarious the conditions these EULA's spell out. "You are the customer, this is what we DEMAND of you. KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!"

When Adobe makes a Linux port of Photoshop, I'm done. No more Windows .. ever. I'd buy a Mac, but I think they're overpriced. :)

Big_E.D.
10-14-2006, 05:55 AM
Just when I was wanting to warm up to Vista I read this....were they even thinking about those of us who upgrade more often than most people replace furniture or even shoes? I've reformatted my XP computer at least 8 times, 3 of which were in the same month. If they think I'm going to pay for two vista copies just because of an easy fix hardware failure or upgrade they can think again.

Whats sad is they will probably get away with it, what with how they are almost forcing everyone and their grandmother to upgrade to it to do anything worthwhile or useful in the next few years.

I hope there will be some alternative to Vista that doesn't have the same limitations. But I still want my DX10!

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 05:58 AM
Do people honestly believe this is how vista is going to work? That its going to screw you if you try changing your hardware? Honestly? Do you realise how screwed MS would be with large companies and their IT guys having to deal with this crap? It makes absolutely no sense. I could swear people made the same claim about XP when it came out.

jtraveller
10-14-2006, 06:12 AM
by the look of things, those who work in the games industry better get a lot of spare money for licences or else buy a config with the very last stuff and stick to it for a long time.

Myliobatidae
10-14-2006, 06:15 AM
Its exactly like just before XP came out " Oh my, I'm gonna need permission from MS before I change my video card...BLAH BLAH BLAH"

And its probably limited to two sockets just like XP, anything more than two sockets, and you'll need server 2003...so for those who are going to build that 16 cpu system with 4 quads, is gonna have to fork over some serious cash for server, the rest of us will be fine...

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 06:24 AM
Its exactly like just before XP came out " Oh my, I'm gonna need permission from MS before I change my video card...BLAH BLAH BLAH"

And its probably limited to two sockets just like XP, anything more than two sockets, and you'll need server 2003...so for those who are going to build that 16 cpu system with 4 quads, is gonna have to fork over some serious cash for server, the rest of us will be fine...

I knew it, someone else who remembers everyone screaming like someone stabbed them in the groin about XP being solidly locked to 1 set of hardware, and if you even replaced the network card it was going to magicly self destruct or lock you out completly.

KayosIII
10-14-2006, 06:46 AM
I think The purpose of such restrictions is to give people a reason to buy the more expensive versions of their product. I have always hated having artificial limits put on a piece of software. But from a company that decided to triple its quality assurance licensing in one jump I could expect just about anything from Microsoft.

PyRoT
10-14-2006, 07:11 AM
Tell you what, let's see you get paid $50 a month to build iPods and see the cheapest legal unit is no less than 5 months worth of wages. Or Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers complaining about chinese pirates when he wants $80 for his latest shitfest in the land his masters openly rape.

In the US? Yeah, piracy is a tad unforgivable. But in China where people work in impoverish conditions and the only console willing to take a chance in that region is the iQue, just another way for Nintendo to try and charge $50 for SNES games, then I say let them have a free OS here or there. Or god forbid, an MP3 every once in a while.

Yeah I completely agree. Just because something is against teh law does not make it morally wrong and these companies don't lose much except guaranteed global compatibility. What if all these asian countries started to use linux or old windows versions?

I guess in the long term I wouldnt mind it if linux, which I've never even used, became mainstream. I just hear taht it is very efficient.

Tomek

Grim Beefer
10-14-2006, 07:19 AM
For those of you claiming that the same thing was said about XP, try reading the offical Software Liscense Terms (http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Home%20Basic_English_6d3e0409-7a2c-4239-b850-d41210b71b13.pdf) for Windows Vista, and the official EULA (http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20XP_Home_English_1f1fecd8-e4c2-4340-9c25-167c35073352.pdf) for Windows XP.

The Vista SLT clearly states under section 15. REASSIGN TO ANOTHER DEVICE a.

Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may
reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the “licensed device.”

The "one time" terminology is repeated throughout section 15. and 16.. Compare this with section 4. of the XP EULA.

TRANSFER—Internal. You may move the Product to a different Workstation Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove the Product from the former Workstation Computer.

Obviously, there is no mention of any numerical restrictions. So I don't know what is so hard to understand. The wording is completely different for the two different operating systems. People are getting upset for good reason, and Microsoft has some explaining to do.

nudelsalat
10-14-2006, 07:22 AM
so...how can i install mac os on a pc?

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 07:30 AM
For those of you claiming that the same thing was said about XP, try reading the offical Software Liscense Terms (http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Home%20Basic_English_6d3e0409-7a2c-4239-b850-d41210b71b13.pdf) for Windows Vista, and the official EULA (http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20XP_Home_English_1f1fecd8-e4c2-4340-9c25-167c35073352.pdf) for Windows XP.

The Vista SLT clearly states under section 15. REASSIGN TO ANOTHER DEVICE a.

Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may
reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the “licensed device.”

The "one time" terminology is repeated throughout section 15. and 16.. Compare this with section 4. of the XP EULA.

TRANSFER—Internal. You may move the Product to a different Workstation Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove the Product from the former Workstation Computer.

Obviously, there is no mention of any numerical restrictions. So I don't know what is so hard to understand. The wording is completely different for the two different operating systems. People are getting upset for good reason, and Microsoft has some explaining to do.


Again, I think its retarded, and I dont think that deffinition is going to stand. Microsoft would ultimately stab itself in the foot worse than any other way possible that I can think of. What about the "Official Software Lisence Terms" for XP listed before it was released?

JoeBananas
10-14-2006, 09:20 AM
What the hell is wrong with Mircosoft? I guess billiions and billions of $ isn't enough profit for them? What sort of idiot at Microsoft HQ makes these sorts of decisions.

I'll be sticking with XP thank you very much, just like everyone else Having transparent windows, and the 'wow' factor of being able to play Halo2 on my PC (a game that's designed to run on a PIII 700mhz, and a geforce 3), just isn't enough to put up with this bullshit

parallax
10-14-2006, 10:55 AM
The EU will not stand for this. In NL, hacking this to make the switch possible will probably fall under 'fair use' or something similar.

AlexC
10-14-2006, 11:54 AM
What the hell is wrong with Mircosoft?
Everything. It's not just the Vista license that will restrict users either - the entire OS will lock and restrict users in with all this Digital Rights Management, more like Digital Restirction Management. Thank god I use Linux/Ubuntu as much as I can, it doesn't take away your freedom and rights like Microsoft/Windows.

Locking/restricting users this much is going over the top, way over the top and will probably only lead to more illegal copies or get people switching to Ubuntu or other free alternatives which is probably for the best as it doesn't take away your freedom that you should have!

pluMmet
10-14-2006, 12:00 PM
I could swear people made the same claim about XP when it came out.

People claimed that if you changed the hardware around you would need to re-authorize Xp and you do.



There are rules like only 3 video card changes within 6 months or something like that. But from personal experience 1 motherboard change causes re-authorization. Even if the motherboard is so close to the original that it's plug and play (no re-install needed.)



I have no doubt that this is MS's intention. I remember a quote from the movie Wall Street "How many yachts can you sky behind?" referring to obsessive wealth!

L.Rawlins
10-14-2006, 12:55 PM
Whatever happened to 'Palladium'?... :curious:

A name change on the grounds of negative publicity. Apparently. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base) :rolleyes:

JeroenDStout
10-14-2006, 01:27 PM
The EU will not stand for this. In NL, hacking this to make the switch possible will probably fall under 'fair use' or something similar.
Hahahaha :D

In my completely altruistic view, I'd prefer to see the ground-level software of our computers open-source. Then again, I promised to install Linux months ago. Which I didn't. Because I'm scared to loose data. Though, with a new computer coming up not-so-soon, I might try - I heard you can even run Windows software on Linux via a not-that-costly emulator.

AlexC
10-14-2006, 01:29 PM
I heard you can even run Windows software on Linux via a not-that-costly emulator.

Not that costly as in Free, or you can pay for Cedega or Crossover. But there are free alternatives to most software anyway!

JeroenDStout
10-14-2006, 01:41 PM
I meant 'not that costly' in the sense that the software doesn't run that much slower... I already assumed there'd be a free tool for it :)

vlad74
10-14-2006, 02:40 PM
Come on Google.

xynaria
10-14-2006, 03:24 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me..combat piracy by creating more reasons for people to resort to piracy..............

monkeybeach
10-14-2006, 04:14 PM
This is really foolish thinking man. Doing a job one has been hired to do does not give them the right to steal from their employer.

Who gave the employer the right to steal from the employee? When the laws and rules protect the wrong people, they need to be broken.

pluMmet
10-14-2006, 04:26 PM
Who gave the employer the right to steal from the employee? When the laws and rules protect the wrong people, they need to be broken.

I second that :deal:

Kid Dynomite
10-14-2006, 04:53 PM
Who gave the employer the right to steal from the employee? When the laws and rules protect the wrong people, they need to be broken.

Spoken like a true tyrant.

I hope Vista is unbreakable, or at least so diffifcult to pirate, that it's near impossible to try. That way, people would be forced to make legal, market based decisions about changing their operating systems, not resort to piracy. You don't NEED Windows. Life goes on.

squidinc
10-14-2006, 05:01 PM
Do people honestly believe this is how vista is going to work? That its going to screw you if you try changing your hardware? Honestly? Do you realise how screwed MS would be with large companies and their IT guys having to deal with this crap? It makes absolutely no sense. I could swear people made the same claim about XP when it came out.

business users would get a site license, the version of win xp we have at work doesn't require any online activation, vista will be the same.. home users could be totally screwed

charleyc
10-14-2006, 05:29 PM
Who gave the employer the right to steal from the employee? When the laws and rules protect the wrong people, they need to be broken.

And you really wonder why Microsoft is doing all this. With so many comments like this (in a board that threatens expulsion for admited software pirates) I am so glad I do not make and sell software for a living. This line of thinking is a threat to the software industry. It is not some ultruistic ideal meant to bring the world to a better place. It is the rationalization of selfish desire to take as one pleases without regaurd to the costs and efforts of others. It is childish.

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 05:32 PM
People claimed that if you changed the hardware around you would need to re-authorize Xp and you do.
There are rules like only 3 video card changes within 6 months or something like that. But from personal experience 1 motherboard change causes re-authorization. Even if the motherboard is so close to the original that it's plug and play (no re-install needed.)
I have no doubt that this is MS's intention. I remember a quote from the movie Wall Street "How many yachts can you sky behind?" referring to obsessive wealth!

I have changed every component in my computer. I have not once had to re-authorise win XP pro, not once. Is this only an issue with home editions, maybe thats why ive never seen it.

tozz
10-14-2006, 06:08 PM
I have changed every component in my computer. I have not once had to re-authorise win XP pro, not once. Is this only an issue with home editions, maybe thats why ive never seen it.
The only time you don't need to re-authorize is with corporate edition discs and volume license keys (the most usual pirated version). Professional or Home edition has nothing to do with it (changed mobo to a new identical one and had to reauthorize a Professional version. Not that I could, I nlited out that crap, but still).

I have to reserve myself for in the store purchased editions, never tested one of those.

richcz3
10-14-2006, 06:23 PM
First people - You have options. Make less threats and carry through with them already. You have Apple and some would argue some form of Linux. The city of Munich Germany didn't make threats - they decided to go with Linux in 2005 (although they had to scale back the initial plan because of migration costs). So I say - Just do it.

Microsoft is part of the "Trusted Computing" group. Trusted Computing PCs ship when Vista ships. In my view this is their way to migrate the home populace to a "Cerified Trusted Computing" Vendor. The movie and music industries are all for it. PC Hardware and peripherals will be chipped and checked by Vista and (signed) retail software. Hardware and software that isn't signed may not work as intended.

This will put the squeeze on small independant PC companies and software developers. As well as people like myself who build and upgrade their own rigs. For MS, the entertainment industries, and major software publishers, these are the gray market areas collectively costing them billions+ annually.

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 06:25 PM
The only time you don't need to re-authorize is with corporate edition discs and volume license keys (the most usual pirated version). Professional or Home edition has nothing to do with it (changed mobo to a new identical one and had to reauthorize a Professional version. Not that I could, I nlited out that crap, but still).

I have to reserve myself for in the store purchased editions, never tested one of those.

That explains it. My father is provided with the latest os's through his company because our home is considered a testing ground for his experaments, its kind of annoying at times, being switched from one type of network group to another, but I guess I just lucked out.
I suppose I can look forward to a similar version of Vista.

Also, I have to correct my prior statement. I did have to at least set up xp again when I replaced my hd.. but thats a given.

EnlightenedPixel
10-14-2006, 06:28 PM
First people - You have options. Make less threats and carry through with them already. You have Apple and some would argue some form of Linux. The city of Munich Germany didn't make threats - they decided to go with Linux in 2005 (although they had to scale back the initial plan because of migration costs). So I say - Just do it.

Microsoft is part of the "Trusted Computing" group. Trusted Computing PCs ship when Vista ships. In my view this is their way to migrate the home populace to a "Cerified Trusted Computing" Vendor. The movie and music industries are all for it. PC Hardware and peripherals will be chipped and checked by Vista and (signed) retail software. Hardware and software that isn't signed may not work as intended.

This will put the squeeze on small independant PC companies and software developers. As well as people like myself who build and upgrade their own rigs. For MS, the entertainment industries, and major software publishers, these are the gray market areas collectively costing them billions+ annually.

Since both Intell and AMD are part of the TCPA group, wouldnt that automaticly mean Apple is going to have to follow with that as well if they want to keep making hardware?

P_T
10-14-2006, 06:45 PM
Microsoft is part of the "Trusted Computing" group. Trusted Computing PCs ship when Vista ships. In my view this is their way to migrate the home populace to a "Cerified Trusted Computing" Vendor. The movie and music industries are all for it. PC Hardware and peripherals will be chipped and checked by Vista and (signed) retail software. Hardware and software that isn't signed may not work as intended.If that's how it's gonna be then I guess more people are going to be taking the Linux path. That probably means MS loses more money while it's business as usual for the online outlaws.

WoolyLoach
10-14-2006, 06:49 PM
Hmmph. Well, I had no intention of upgrading to Vista anyway, none of my software requires Vista and I'm seeing some decent progress in the open-source community for 3D applications. Glad I'm relearning my 3D skills with Blender!

There are some holes content-creation-wise in Linux, but as was mentioned I guess I could run an emulator to keep the ones I need. A nice, professional video editing suite and perhaps a high-end sequencer for Linux would do for me, at least for now.

It'll be interesting to see how this all comes out. Maybe I should polish up my Linux programming skills and contribute to some open-source content creation tool project... put my time (and money) where my mouth is!

*edit* Well, I'll be a monkeys uncle. A bit of research turned up many commercial apps that have Linux versions! Not a lot of good free stuff for video editing/fx but Flint is apparently available for Linux. Hmmph.. time to start saving up money and preparing to migrate!

Howitzer
10-14-2006, 07:16 PM
People are stupid and made of money. Microsoft could limit the amount of time you can spend online to 6 hours a day in the basic edition and they would still rule the market.

If you don't like it, find another solution. There are plenty, both legitimate and illegal.

enygma
10-14-2006, 07:16 PM
Since both Intell and AMD are part of the TCPA group, wouldnt that automaticly mean Apple is going to have to follow with that as well if they want to keep making hardware?
IIRC, motherboards are already shipping with Trusted Computing Platform Modules (TCPM) and have been for a while, and I believe that Apple systems also have the modules in them as well since moving to the Intel platform. I don't believe they are using them yet to lock the OS down to Macs, but I believe they are considering that as an option.

almux
10-14-2006, 07:18 PM
Spoken like a true tyrant.

I hope Vista is unbreakable, or at least so diffifcult to pirate, that it's near impossible to try. That way, people would be forced to make legal, market based decisions about changing their operating systems, not resort to piracy. You don't NEED Windows. Life goes on.
Isn't Microsoft sawing the branch it's sitting on?...

almux
10-14-2006, 07:23 PM
IIRC, motherboards are already shipping with Trusted Computing Platform Modules (TCPM) and have been for a while, and I believe that Apple systems also have the modules in them as well since moving to the Intel platform. I don't believe they are using them yet to lock the OS down to Macs, but I believe they are considering that as an option.
This is most probably the case... the issue depends on pure sense of psychology...

pgp_protector
10-14-2006, 08:35 PM
That explains it. My father is provided with the latest os's through his company because our home is considered a testing ground for his experaments, its kind of annoying at times, being switched from one type of network group to another, but I guess I just lucked out.
I suppose I can look forward to a similar version of Vista.

Also, I have to correct my prior statement. I did have to at least set up xp again when I replaced my hd.. but thats a given.

We need to talk ;) ;) ;)


But I was looking forward to Vista for the perental controls, there sweet.
I've got a little one, and my spouce is not very computer literate. So it all falls on me for everyone she knows :D , but I love the way you can lock down the computer by time / allow applacations to only be used during specified hours, only allow networking during some hours, lock out all sites by a white list, ect... Very nice for the little ones.

And all there current games will still work, so no need to re-buy them or try to get them to work with Wine.

pluMmet
10-14-2006, 08:39 PM
It is the rationalization of selfish desire to take as one pleases without regaurd to the costs and efforts of others. It is childish.

That's what I thought MS was doing with 'Trusted Computing'

I have changed every component in my computer. I have not once had to re-authorise win XP pro, not once. Is this only an issue with home editions, maybe thats why ive never seen it.

All I can say is that when Oblivion came out I bought a new video card and gave my old one to a friend who had an eMachine. The eMachine had no AGP port so we also had to get a new MoBo. It did require re licensing and nothing about it was pirated. It's a fact that I have for myself so don't believe it until you choose to.

charleyc
10-14-2006, 09:06 PM
That's what I thought MS was doing with 'Trusted Computing'...


Except that you freely choose to spend money on Microsoft. Microsoft does not choose to have money stolen from them. If you truely cannot see the difference then I do not feel too bad if Windows begins to cause problems.

Microsoft decided this was a good choice. If it proves that it is not, well then maybe we will see the massive shift in OS dominance that so many have been screaming for. This should be hailed as the begining of the end by those anti-Microsoft. Other wise, it will be business as usual and 6 months from now this whole thing will have blown over and be forgotten.

enygma
10-14-2006, 10:39 PM
This is most probably the case... the issue depends on pure sense of psychology...
Explain? I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here.

One thing I though you were trying to say was that manufacturers were trying to make us believe that TPMs were being installed on motherboards now just to play with our heads. I can assure otherwise, especially if your motherboard has a microcontroller from Atmel, Broadcom, Infineon, Sinosun, STMicroelectronics or Winbond. There is a good chance that microcontroller is the TPM, although you would have to check the manufacturer site for that microcontrollers model number to confirm whether it is the TPM or not.

DMJ
10-15-2006, 01:31 AM
I had windows 95 as a oem licence and it was fine, bought win2k as a full product and it was also very good for me, and with a newer computer i got windows xp. In the beginning it was fine, but after a harddrive crash and replacement, i had to call microsoft support every time when i installed windows on that computer.
Now i have to wonder, is it wrong to spend money on a legal copy of windows, but to keep the control of what the OS/program does on your computer in your own hand? After all, you do own the hardware, and changing things there should not make your software that is legally aquired illegal (or accusing you of not using a legal version of said software).

The day Maxon puts a version of C4D on the market that runs without emulation on linux i'll buy a cross system licence from them. After all, i have the hardware already, buing a mac isn't much of an alternative becuase it will mean setting up an additional set of hardware.

What was mentioned before is indeed true, the big applications/softwarehouses (MS Office/Adobe Photoshop/Autodesk AutoCAD/Max/Maya) are currently either PC or PC/Mac only and have as far as i know little or no support for linux.

Don't say Gimp or Blender or Open Office will fill the gap, because that isn't the case, people want to use the programs they have always used, thats why it's easier to swap between windows and apple and vice versa than from either one of those to linux because there is no photoshop or word that works in the way people are used to.

It's not ony microsoft that uses it's power a little too much into it's own advantage i'm afraid. We allow it to, because there is no real mass request for big programs to be ran on other operating systems.

"Windows has been good enough in the past, it will be good enough in the future."

Gentle Fury
10-15-2006, 01:37 AM
more and more reason to move on over to Mac OSX.....my next computer will definately be a Mac.....I recently got to use it and it is so much better than windows.....its not even funny!

pluMmet
10-15-2006, 01:51 AM
Except that you freely choose to spend money on Microsoft.

That's lamer then saying I can choose not to eat candy...Today all candy is made with High Fructose Corn Syrup. I could go on and on about how bad High Fructose Corn Syrup is but the bottom line is that I'd have to make my own candy, soda and most frozen foods in order to not use it (with the exception of Diet which has even worse ingredients.)



So yes I can just not eat anything that I don't cook myself but I honestly don't have the time. Just like I don't have the time to create my own OS and all the programs that go along with it. MS has put themselves into the position of power by squashing innovation. I wonder if people who argue that MS is good have just started paying attention or are just short sighted?

pluMmet
10-15-2006, 02:04 AM
An intresting thought has come to mind that I don't think anyone has mentioned...


How long do we think an OS should last? If I upgrade 2 or 3 times in the next 2 years then the Vista OS is a 1 year investment. Shouldn't an OS last 3 or 4 years?

charleyc
10-15-2006, 02:06 AM
So yes I can just not eat anything that I don't cook myself but I honestly don't have the time. Just like I don't have the time to create my own OS and all the programs that go along with it. MS has put themselves into the position of power by squashing innovation. I wonder if people who argue that MS is good have just started paying attention or are just short sighted?

Oookaaay. This has gone from absurd to....well something else. I get this deep down feeling that you are one of those people who feel they must win an argument at any cost. I have no idea what you are talking about as there are several well established alternatives to Windows that you do not have to 'create' yourself. So, whatever you have turned this into...you win man. I give up.

pluMmet
10-15-2006, 02:15 AM
Oookaaay. This has gone from absurd to....well something else. I get this deep down feeling that you are one of those people who feel they must win an argument at any cost. I have no idea what you are talking about as there are several well established alternatives to Windows that you do not have to 'create' yourself. So, whatever you have turned this into...you win man. I give up.

It's not about me winning. It's about people understanding!



Stupid but valid quote "With great power comes great responsibility."



When George Washington became the first president of the U.S.A. people ask him to keep the post and become a king. He stepped down because it wasn't about him it was about us.



Microsoft is in a very powerful position but unlike Washington they are seating themselves as king. If you studied Trusted Computing you’d understand how this is evident.



If Microsoft created a powerful OS that we had control over then they would be as Washington. But with them in control of it well....

EnlightenedPixel
10-15-2006, 02:26 AM
Again, I must point out. Since both AMD and INTELL are doing the trusted computing thing, whats keeping this from crippling Linux or Apple?

jtraveller
10-15-2006, 03:39 AM
for those who think that using linux will keep the tcpa dominance away, please think twice.

all the major (if not the only commercial) chip manufacturers (amd, motorola, intel) are in the tcpa already, and their new lines already are tcpa compliant (even the intel chips for apple, from which i guess apple will move to tcpa when they see it fit to do so).

what will keep them from making their hardware so secure that you ONLY can install windows, mac os or a tcpa compliant linux? after all, a non compliant OS is already considered (by they) insecure, same goes to any uncertified program (i.e. freeware or from a company which cant or wont pay the fees)???

charleyc, that would be a real threat against the industry, because it will be a monopoly, and a lasting one.
also, i doubt there will be any piracy, im sure the tcpa did a bulletproof system (the encription level on the tpm is just insanely high, according to the tcpa...), but there wont be any competition either.

oh, yeah, one more thing...

all those changes arent visible now, but in 5 years from now they will be an everyday thing.
also there wont be way back.

pluMmet
10-15-2006, 04:08 AM
for those who think that using linux will keep the tcpa dominance away, please think twice.

I agree that is a possibility.
It seems to me the same thing that Sony did with playstation 3. They got sued and lost the rights to make the controller from ps2. So they put out a fake controller to convince the people who owned the rights to the ps2 controller that they had no need for them. The folks who owned the ps2 design got scared that they would not see any more revenue from the controller and droped their price and Sony agreed and reinitiated the design.

The tcpa in chips is passave. The chip will run without it. The only reason Linux would use it is if they believed that no one would use Linux without it.

Considering that there are so many Unix based OS's out there it's safe to say that there will always be an open Linux some where. But will there be any programs to run on it?

jtraveller
10-15-2006, 07:36 AM
given the broad range of powers tcpa will have, its not that farfetched that they may make the chip to run only with the right OS, not now, but in a generation in the future.


and, yeah, will there be any software (commercial or not) to be used in a backwater OS anyway? (i mean, software we can actually work with)

the point is that i dont think all this is going to do any good for me as a consumer and as part of the industry but way outside the mainstream i know that its gonna hurt in case that door is open...
not to mention the political and social implications.

the thing is that in this and the 2 next years, the future of digital world is going to be decided.

but, of course, its just speculation.

prajna
10-15-2006, 09:09 AM
Sounds like a good idea to me..combat piracy by creating more reasons for people to resort to piracy..............


Yeah, replace "piracy" with "terrorism", and it reminds me of another similar strategy.

prajna
10-15-2006, 09:14 AM
Microsoft decided this was a good choice. If it proves that it is not, well then maybe we will see the massive shift in OS dominance that so many have been screaming for. This should be hailed as the begining of the end by those anti-Microsoft.


HAIL, HAIL, THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF MICROSOFT.



:buttrock:

AlexC
10-15-2006, 09:20 AM
I sure do hope it is! Not just because I hate microsoft with a passion, but so people can have their freedom back.

augustus
10-15-2006, 09:58 AM
Sorry. I've just gone to Microsoft site and downloaded the EULA for retail version of Vista. I couldn't find anything about one-time transfer on it. Does that cover only OEM versions?

Edit: Oh just found it. Now that's retarded.

mech7
10-15-2006, 12:19 PM
Sorry. I've just gone to Microsoft site and downloaded the EULA for retail version of Vista. I couldn't find anything about one-time transfer on it. Does that cover only OEM versions?

Edit: Oh just found it. Now that's retarded.


I think that with OEM versions you where never allowed to put it on other pc or sell it.. I have heard that some companies just gave OEM version if they only bought a mouse or whatever though :)

xynaria
10-15-2006, 03:25 PM
Yeah, replace "piracy" with "terrorism", and it reminds me of another similar strategy.

and presumably just as silly and at least superficially... self defeating ;)

pgp_protector
10-15-2006, 05:30 PM
Though I Do Like the Parental Controls that Vista will allow.
http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalControls_Web_Time.jpg

Links to other picts
Program Control access --> http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalCont...am_Control.jpg (http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalControls_Program_Control.jpg)

Web Controls --> http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalControls_Web_Access.jpg

And Even Game Controls (so you can keep you copy of Quake 4 on the comp http://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif while preventing your little one from playing it)
http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalCont...ame_Access.jpg (http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalControls_Game_Access.jpg)

EDIT*
(Running Viats RC1 on AMD64 3200 w/1.25G Ram 40G HD HP Pavilion ZV6000 Laptop)

enygma
10-15-2006, 05:32 PM
I think that with OEM versions you where never allowed to put it on other pc or sell it.. I have heard that some companies just gave OEM version if they only bought a mouse or whatever though :)
Yah, at a local computer reseller, I was allowed to get an OEM Windows XP if I picked up a PC component, such as memory, hard drive, etc. The odd thing though is that in order to get the OEM for Microsoft Office, I had to purchase at least a motherboard, CPU and memory.

EDIT: Interesting time restriction feature. I think I might find that most handy once my kids start going to school... :D

EnlightenedPixel
10-15-2006, 05:43 PM
Arent there laws preventing a company or a collection of companies from producing software or hardware that would keep other competing or new companies from developing? Sort of a "Play fair" kind of ruiling I'd think.

AlexC
10-15-2006, 05:45 PM
Yes, the EU has laws against it and they are constantly fighting with MS to change things - IIRC they got sued like millions a day once because of the EU laws.

chlywly
10-15-2006, 06:31 PM
Honestly thats pathetic, and NO one will stand for it, by then im sure LINUX will be more stable, or their stuff will SIMPLY be cracked.

richcz3
10-15-2006, 06:44 PM
Arent there laws preventing a company or a collection of companies from producing software or hardware that would keep other competing or new companies from developing? Sort of a "Play fair" kind of ruiling I'd think.
In it's broadest form, the Trusted Computing initiative protects all content developers that are willing to play within the rules.

This broad concept is attractive to all movie studios, recording comanies and well established software developers. There is nothing keeping the "Little Guys" from joining so long as they abide by the development and distribution rules. It all looks good on paper but ultimately its the consumer that has his/her choices limited under the auspices of security and fair use. Anything that is modified/can modify the system to give you "greater access" to something you purchased could render it unusable. The clear example of that is Vista itself. The idea of a "license to use" VS "ownership of" is now presumably more clear.

For me what is suspect is the potential for the big players to undermine accessability to choice. This could be done by requiring indies to jump through multiple hoops to get approval. That hasn't been proven, but be sure that the big players wouldn't hessitate to do it.

AlexC
10-15-2006, 07:00 PM
Honestly thats pathetic, and NO one will stand for it, by then im sure LINUX will be more stable, or their stuff will SIMPLY be cracked.

Linux is more stable than Windows any day, just try Ubuntu and see =)

maX_Andrews
10-15-2006, 08:13 PM
Though I Do Like the Parental Controls that Vista will allow.

Links to other picts
Program Control access --> http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalCont...am_Control.jpg

Web Controls --> http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalControls_Web_Access.jpg

And Even Game Controls (so you can keep you copy of Quake 4 on the comp while preventing your little one from playing it)
http://www.gw4y.com/pgp/ParentalCont...ame_Access.jpg

EDIT*
(Running Viats RC1 on AMD64 3200 w/1.25G Ram 40G HD HP Pavilion ZV6000 Laptop)

How old are your kids? If they are like six then fine, but if we're talking 8-16 then I think a better solution would be to talk to them about managing their time wisely and to stay away from inappropriate web sites. They can't be protected forever and putting limits on people only makes them resent you. I say let them figure it out for themselves, and provide guidance (This is coming from my experience of my parents trying to schedule my computer use when I was entering high school. It made me resent everything else they tried to help me with, because I didn't trust them and didn't think they understood me).
Life isn't always spoonfed. When she's in college and has her new laptop and a midterm the next day, what's stopping her from myspacing the night away then? Better that these mistakes are made earlier on in life when the mind is open to being changed, than trying to break a bad habbit when the mistakes really matter later on.

Of course as the parent, the decision is up to you, and you alone know what's best for your kids, not me. This is just my opinion from my experience.

You can also always get a mac mini, seeing as OSX has the same controls ;-P

ghopper
10-15-2006, 08:26 PM
So which Vista edition allows unlimited transfers (like it is now on XP) ?

almux
10-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Explain? I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here.

One thing I though you were trying to say was that manufacturers were trying to make us believe that TPMs were being installed on motherboards now just to play with our heads. I can assure otherwise, especially if your motherboard has a microcontroller from Atmel, Broadcom, Infineon, Sinosun, STMicroelectronics or Winbond. There is a good chance that microcontroller is the TPM, although you would have to check the manufacturer site for that microcontrollers model number to confirm whether it is the TPM or not.
I'll leave appart the technical approach (I'm too bad at that!). What I mean is, most of Os and applications firms do know about piracy. Some have that "phone home" implementation and even know how many unpaid copies are used all around.
The point is that many "pirates" become trusty customers after a serious tryout of their product(s)... if it's that good...
Now, this is all part of the (commercial) game. It's marketing and psychology... In the case dicussed here, it rather looks like Microsoft is totally lacking of common sense. They openly consider their own customers as enemies... The only way to justify such attitude would be if the company would be on the blade of bankrupcy, wich is surely not the case... Microsoft could loose the $ of ten zunelike fiascos and still have enough to have 10% or even 30% of "pirated" Vista used around the world.
I think, the problem is somewhere else. Give someone the belief that he is the best ever and let him belive that for 1 or 2 decades before you put him in front of some evidence of another reality... where the certitude of his supremacy gets shattered with a growing doubt and fear to be wrong... The reaction would be similar of what is raised in this thread.
The kind of "taking control" thing is a big psychological mistake. No way this will help Vista to be embrassed happily, neigther by ancient nor new users.
A massive bailing out of legions of customers, turning to Linux and OSX, is more predictable... especially with the outcome of virtualization wich will render Windows useless.

ndat
10-15-2006, 08:55 PM
The funny thing is that this move will push users into piracy.

I mess with my hardware a lot and if this is true, I'm certinally not buying a copy of it, it would be a waste of money.

ThE_JacO
10-15-2006, 09:11 PM
Honestly thats pathetic, and NO one will stand for it, by then im sure LINUX will be more stable, or their stuff will SIMPLY be cracked.

linux will be more stable?
"linux", assuming you mean a distro of sorts, is already a largely more solid and stable platform in a number of situations then vista will ever be.
The problem with linux that's keeping it away from kids' desks and office boxes sure isn't stability.

as for what the original thread was discussing...
well yeah, how is it surprising that MS might actually do something like that?

when win2k was out, and the whole serial thing with phone approval came out for XP, everybody was thinking they'd never get away with it...
they did.
when the new "genuine MS" BS came up nobody could believe it would actually last very long... it's still there and getting worse.

I have 2 licenses of XP, one home (came with laptop), and one pro(came with a workstation), that I still can't easily uninstall/reinstall because I moved continent (yeeep, since they were OEM from europe they can't apparently be used in australia, at least according to MS).

Vista for me is only accelerating my migration process, from being a casual unix user at home and regular user at work, to not using anything MS anymore.
For the millions of users that really count for MS tho? It probably won't make a difference.

pgp_protector
10-15-2006, 09:26 PM
How old are your kids? If they are like six then fine, but if we're talking 8-16 then I think a better solution would be to talk to them about managing their time wisely and to stay away from inappropriate web sites. They can't be protected forever and putting limits on people only makes them resent you. I say let them figure it out for themselves, and provide guidance (This is coming from my experience of my parents trying to schedule my computer use when I was entering high school. It made me resent everything else they tried to help me with, because I didn't trust them and didn't think they understood me).
Life isn't always spoonfed. When she's in college and has her new laptop and a midterm the next day, what's stopping her from myspacing the night away then? Better that these mistakes are made earlier on in life when the mind is open to being changed, than trying to break a bad habbit when the mistakes really matter later on.

Of course as the parent, the decision is up to you, and you alone know what's best for your kids, not me. This is just my opinion from my experience.

You can also always get a mac mini, seeing as OSX has the same controls ;-P

Well there only 7 right now. :) but it's not that I don't trust them, I don't trust others out there.
So now is the time to help train / teach about limits (Her current systme dosn't have any net access, as there's no need yet, but with the new school year it will soon be usefull more than just the leepfrog games.

maX_Andrews
10-15-2006, 10:46 PM
true true, there's a lot of messed up people out there. Keep myspace away for as long as possible :)

ghopper
10-15-2006, 10:54 PM
Something interesting to read: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

EnlightenedPixel
10-16-2006, 05:35 AM
Well... that answers quite a bit.

Thank you for posting that short and informative piece of web literature explaining how people are freaking out :D

PyRoT
10-16-2006, 06:14 AM
Something interesting to read: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

Thanks heaps for posting that. I guess I can't blame myself or anyone else for interpreting that clause of the EULA in that way. MS should have gone about thigns a little differently. It's not soemthing taht concerns me as when I buy a comp it usually lasts a few version of windows before I get a new one. I bought my current computer with Windows ME :D

Tomek

ambient-whisper
10-16-2006, 06:21 AM
for those who think that using linux will keep the tcpa dominance away, please think twice.

all the major (if not the only commercial) chip manufacturers (amd, motorola, intel) are in the tcpa already, and their new lines already are tcpa compliant (even the intel chips for apple, from which i guess apple will move to tcpa when they see it fit to do so).

what will keep them from making their hardware so secure that you ONLY can install windows, mac os or a tcpa compliant linux? after all, a non compliant OS is already considered (by they) insecure, same goes to any uncertified program (i.e. freeware or from a company which cant or wont pay the fees)???

charleyc, that would be a real threat against the industry, because it will be a monopoly, and a lasting one.
also, i doubt there will be any piracy, im sure the tcpa did a bulletproof system (the encription level on the tpm is just insanely high, according to the tcpa...), but there wont be any competition either.

oh, yeah, one more thing...

all those changes arent visible now, but in 5 years from now they will be an everyday thing.
also there wont be way back.

i can see it now. mod chips for the pc.

jtraveller
10-16-2006, 06:25 AM
nice and informative, indeed, yet doesnt changes, at least for me, two things:

A) there is still a possible monopoly in the making and i tend to distrust that kind of practices (hey, by the way, whatever happened with the court ruling against microsoft, forcing it to split, among other things in the late nineties?).

B) im going to use linux as much as i can and xp when i have no choice (uh... like for real life work...)

anyway, spent most of last night thinking about the subject, and i dont think a monoply will be such a disaster, but this is not the thread for it.

CGmonkey
10-16-2006, 07:16 AM
There is alot of ignorance and whining... I wonder why those two always come hand in hand? :]

pluMmet
10-16-2006, 07:41 AM
There is alot of ignorance and whining... I wonder why those two always come hand in hand? :]

Ya I hate how the founding fathers of the U.S.A. whined and whined and whined. Then they had the nerve to throw England’s tea into the harbor. How ignorant!

pluMmet
10-16-2006, 07:51 AM
Something interesting to read: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

They are trying to minimize us by saying "hardly anyone transferred their OS to another computer." Most people aren't tech savvy. Hardly anyone (by the same standards) removed their hard drives to put into their new computer. Should hard drives be hard locked to the computer?



MS is dealing with perceptions. If they can get you to believe that an OS is more valid then any other program then they make lots of money.



Should Photoshop be hard locked to 1 computer so that if you get a new computer and get rid of the old one you will need another copy of Photoshop?

AlexC
10-16-2006, 08:01 AM
B) im going to use linux as much as i can and xp when i have no choice (uh... like for real life work...)

Vista for me is only accelerating my migration process, from being a casual unix user at home and regular user at work, to not using anything MS anymore.

Have you tried Ubuntu, the next release is out in 10 days so I'd wait till then to try it if you havn't!

pluMmet, _nothing_ and absolutely _nothing_ should be locked to a computer at all. You should have the freedom, like when using Linux, to change whatever you want - when you want and not have to worry about licenseing.

ghopper
10-16-2006, 08:07 AM
Also keep a close eye on this post (http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/archive/2006/10/10/RC2_2C00_-the-New-York-Times-and-License-Information-for-Windows.aspx), this is where we will hopefully get some official explanation soon. I personally think the licensing situation won't be as bad as it is described here - worst case maybe frequent hardware updaters would have to call MS to reactivate, but not buy a new license.

pixelmonk
10-16-2006, 02:12 PM
Have you tried Ubuntu, the next release is out in 10 days so I'd wait till then to try it if you havn't!

pluMmet, _nothing_ and absolutely _nothing_ should be locked to a computer at all. You should have the freedom, like when using Linux, to change whatever you want - when you want and not have to worry about licenseing.

that's provided you put some time and effort into getting Linux working and operational. It's no easy task for a linux nub, even with Ubuntu. I should know.. it took a few hours to find answers on the web for VPN, drivers and other installs I needed to get shake working under Ubuntu. Ubuntu I found is the easiest out of the 3 distros I tried but it's still not as easy as installing XP or even OSX (done both, obviously)

EnlightenedPixel
10-16-2006, 02:49 PM
They are trying to minimize us by saying "hardly anyone transferred their OS to another computer." Most people aren't tech savvy. Hardly anyone (by the same standards) removed their hard drives to put into their new computer. Should hard drives be hard locked to the computer?
MS is dealing with perceptions. If they can get you to believe that an OS is more valid then any other program then they make lots of money.
Should Photoshop be hard locked to 1 computer so that if you get a new computer and get rid of the old one you will need another copy of Photoshop?

Actualy theyre clarifying that the new EULA is actualy what the old EULA was supposed to state in the first place.

KayosIII
10-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Something interesting to read: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

Wow the logic in that article is very crooked. In fact it has a lot of things backwards. If running on changed hardware or in a virtual machine took extra work from microsoft then I would understand them not including the features in certain versions. But in fact placing these restrictions takes considerably more work. These measures are to gouge more money out of their customers pure and simple. With a company that has tended raise its prices while gaining worldwide market share I find this particularly insulting. In a competitive market this simply would not happen.

KayosIII
10-16-2006, 05:56 PM
As to the linux being more stable comment - I think we are talking about linux being more stable in a business sense rather than a technical sense.

Currently releasing binary only applications can be quite difficult on linux. It is a moving target (well actually several moving targets). This coupled with (percieved or real not sure which) low demand keeps many major ISV's from porting to Linux. This is partly by design - a large part of the free software community want to make sure they are able to run a system that will use only free (as in speech) software.

For professionals at least lack of support from key ISV's is a the major reason for not using linux. The CG industry is lucky that there are a significant number of developers which already have a Unix based product that can be adapted to run on linux very easily.

Steps are being made to rectify the situation but time will tell. The Whole DRM thing is shaping up to be a major vendor lock in tool. You simply wont be able to migrate to another operating system without loosing your music and movie collection (not without breaking the law anyways) and access to the major services to provide that (I vaguely remember a great deal about this in one of the halloween documents). So there is a bit of a race between DRM and a meaningfully large alternate operating system adoption going on at the moment.

Having said all that after being a linux nut for almost a decade now. I am only now seeing people coming forwards to ask me to help them install linux on their systems. So maybe Linux will be seen as a viable option for the masses in the not too distant future.

Anyways here's hoping that real competition will come along and force Microsoft to be nicer too their customers.

pixelmonk
10-16-2006, 07:01 PM
nevermind...

pluMmet
10-16-2006, 07:35 PM
Actualy theyre clarifying that the new EULA is actualy what the old EULA was supposed to state in the first place.

They are saying that to make it seem comfortable!

So you do think that If I install Photoshop on a computer then get ride of it and get a new computer that I should need to buy another copy of Photoshop?

I assume your going to say no...So why do I need a new OS?

AlexC
10-16-2006, 08:15 PM
that's provided you put some time and effort into getting Linux working and operational. It's no easy task for a linux nub, even with Ubuntu. I should know.. it took a few hours to find answers on the web for VPN, drivers and other installs I needed to get shake working under Ubuntu. Ubuntu I found is the easiest out of the 3 distros I tried but it's still not as easy as installing XP or even OSX (done both, obviously)

Have you seen the Ubuntu Dapper ( 6.06 ) installation?! 6 simple stages and 15 minutes later and you have a beautiful Linux install - but anyway, that's another topic on it's own =)

neuromancer1978
10-16-2006, 09:45 PM
I believe it is time for me to use Linux fully now. Was thinking about it for some time, been using Windows and Linux together for years. I just don't understand how MS thinks this will help them, but what do I know about buisness? I am an artist. Either way, since the majority of the positions I am trying to go for require Linux/UNIX experience, going to Linux full time won't hurt me a bit. My two cents.

charleyc
10-16-2006, 10:30 PM
They are saying that to make it seem comfortable!

LOL...obviously you all feel so much more comfortable now.

So you do think that If I install Photoshop on a computer then get ride of it and get a new computer that I should need to buy another copy of Photoshop?

I assume your going to say no...So why do I need a new OS?


EULA...End User License Agreement...you are the End User, and you are Agreeing to License (not own) what belongs to them. It depends on what is says in Photoshops EULA. It is simply foolish to think that MS should or should not act because other companies may or may not act the same. And it is pompous to believe that you have any sort of rights in this matter that they are encroaching on.

pluMmet
10-16-2006, 11:56 PM
EULA...End User License Agreement...you are the End User, and you are Agreeing to License (not own) what belongs to them. It depends on what is says in Photoshops EULA. It is simply foolish to think that MS should or should not act because other companies may or may not act the same. And it is pompous to believe that you have any sort of rights in this matter that they are encroaching on.

Lets say that they pass a law that any one in possession of any religious document such as the Bible or Koran will be punished by death. It is pompous to believe that you have any sort of rights in this matter that they are encroaching on.

Right back at you Oh man of deep thought!

charleyc
10-17-2006, 12:02 AM
Lets say that they pass a law that any one in possesion of any religious document such as the Bible or Koran will be punished by death. It is pompous to believe that you have any sort of rights in this matter that they are encroaching on.

Right back at you Oh man of deep thought!

by 'they' you mean Microsoft, right?

EnlightenedPixel
10-17-2006, 12:17 AM
They are saying that to make it seem comfortable!

So you do think that If I install Photoshop on a computer then get ride of it and get a new computer that I should need to buy another copy of Photoshop?

I assume your going to say no...So why do I need a new OS?

Youre like some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist, sheesh.

#1 - Microsoft literaly has no right to keep you from using something you paid money for.
#2 - I have yet to hear of a case in which someone has HAD to buy a new OS even if they had it in a box somewhere. All that is needed is confirmation that the OS has been transfered from one computer to the other so it doesnt exist in two places at once.

charleyc
10-17-2006, 12:29 AM
Youre like some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist, sheesh.

#1 - Microsoft literaly has no right to keep you from using something you paid money for.


Well, sort of. You are not buying the actual code of Windows (or most any other software for that matter). You are paying for the use of it under their conditions. It is like leasing a car. If you go over the miles or any other such thing, you have to pay them more money because that was the agreement. EULA is the agreement we all 'sign' by hitting I accept when we install any software that we do not own the source of. While it has yet to be seen if MS will really push this that hard, the fact that it is clearly stated in the EULA does give them some leverage if things got out of hand.

But I have to think. We are not talking about thousands of dollars a year in the worst case. We are talking about a few hundred over the course of a couple years (typical worst case). More money than that is wasted trying to keep up with video cards or processors.

pluMmet
10-17-2006, 12:47 AM
charleyc-
“They” doesn't refer to anyone but those that would feel the right to do so.





Further, I keep giving you analogies and you keep ignoring them. As in the other MS thread were I presented a complete thought and you twisted it by focusing on 3 words of the thought "hackers help us" which was your way of allowing yourself to not understand the totality of the statement. You remind me of Beavis and Butt head where the teacher is talking and they zone in on some word and loose it's context.



MS owns over 90% of the market. Now they are squeezing those that have nowhere else to go in which to enjoy the vast amount of software that they have gained control of in that you need Windows in order to use them.



I'm sorry you have no frame of reference for why this is considered bad. There are many times in history where such things occur. If you bother to think about it and/or perhaps read some similar situations you will see their outcome. Then perhaps you wont be so happy to sit back while it happens again.

charleyc
10-17-2006, 12:59 AM
I don't really care if you see this my way or not. But the reason I ignore many of your analogies is that they are fairly off base to the subject. You compare this to things that truly matter to the well being of people. I am sorry if Windows is such a thing for you, but this is a trivial matter to mankind. And on top of that, a very small percent (about 5% according to the other write up posted earlier) of all Windows users even have the chance that this could effect them. And as of yet, we don't even know the extents that MS will choose to enforce this. It may very well be that one simply calls them up and explains the situation and MS says, ok, here you go. We don't know. So you see, doom-saying and kicking up a storm is rather bazaar behavior given the reality of the situation.

BillB
10-17-2006, 01:33 AM
One thing that no one has pointed out - MS consider a physical CPU a processor, they don't count cores. A quad core cpu is one processor for MS purposes.

pgp_protector
10-17-2006, 01:34 AM
One thing that no one has pointed out - MS consider a physical CPU a processor, they don't count cores. A quad core cpu is one processor for MS purposes.

And in the next few years (or the lifespan of Vista) do you think that someone may come out with a MB that supports Quad CPUs (Extream Gamers, GFX CPU, Physics CPU) :)

ThE_JacO
10-17-2006, 02:37 AM
Have you tried Ubuntu, the next release is out in 10 days so I'd wait till then to try it if you havn't!

I did, and quickly got rid of it :)
gentooo on laptop (kinda got there because of a gentoo taliban colleague and ended up sticking to it) and suse at home tho are the things working best for me right now.

there's precious little I use day in and day out that can't run on my suse box at home, been waiting for this day for a long time, and now it seems to have come...
the day I shall return to unix!

but seriously, ubuntu, centos etc. are all important things, anything that can "emulate" a mainstream distro for free or bring unix closer to accessible IT is welcome and needed at present time.

a few years ago people thought they would have used an IBM personal computing machine for the rest of their life, software houses should know nothing's eternal :)

jtraveller
10-17-2006, 04:31 AM
Have you tried Ubuntu, the next release is out in 10 days so I'd wait till then to try it if you havn't!


well, im already used to dapper and i must say that cute little OS has captivated me, its easier and much better than the mandrake 8 and 9 i tried once (and ran away from), but for my job as news designer and freelance illustrator... well, i have to use illustrator, photoshop, 3ds 6 (upgrading isnt cheap T_T) and cinema 4d... and using gimp and sodipodi its out of the question =/

Fredl
10-17-2006, 06:30 AM
I just don't see the point of Vista.

People used to say that Macs were hard to upgrade. Doesn't Vista now come into that category? If you can't upgrade what you want to?

If you want to be able to configure your system as you want it, then maybe Linux really is the answer.

charleyc
10-17-2006, 07:47 AM
I just don't see the point of Vista.

People used to say that Macs were hard to upgrade. Doesn't Vista now come into that category? If you can't upgrade what you want to?

If you want to be able to configure your system as you want it, then maybe Linux really is the answer.

There was another article posted that talked about this. The reality of it will most likely be that we will really not see much of any difference from the way XP worked. However, if there is an issue, as long as you do not upgrade both your motherboard and your hard drive at the same time Vista will not question it. And even if for some reason you did have to do this, you would just have to contact MS Support and explaining the situation. But all you would have to do is stagger the upgrade process if you thought you were going to have issues.


I can understand how some might be unsure if they should switch to Mac as it is an entire hardware, software deal. But isn't Linux supposed to be next to free, and run on the same hardware? If any of you are so fed up with Windows, why not get Linux going and see if it is better, its not like it will cost you that much.

AlexC
10-17-2006, 07:50 AM
well, im already used to dapper and i must say that cute little OS has captivated me, its easier and much better than the mandrake 8 and 9 i tried once (and ran away from), but for my job as news designer and freelance illustrator... well, i have to use illustrator, photoshop, 3ds 6 (upgrading isnt cheap T_T) and cinema 4d... and using gimp and sodipodi its out of the question =/

Aye, the only thing keeping me on Windows is 3DS Max ( I've got use to the GIMP now, I quite like it, at first I hated it ) - that's why I'm now learning Maya on Ubuntu yaya

pluMmet
10-17-2006, 10:23 AM
I don't really care if you see this my way or not. But the reason I ignore many of your analogies is that they are fairly off base to the subject. You compare this to things that truly matter to the well being of people. I am sorry if Windows is such a thing for you, but this is a trivial matter to mankind. And on top of that, a very small percent (about 5% according to the other write up posted earlier) of all Windows users even have the chance that this could effect them. And as of yet, we don't even know the extents that MS will choose to enforce this. It may very well be that one simply calls them up and explains the situation and MS says, ok, here you go. We don't know. So you see, doom-saying and kicking up a storm is rather bazaar behavior given the reality of the situation.



There was another article posted that talked about this. The reality of it will most likely be that we will really not see much of any difference from the way XP worked. However, if there is an issue, as long as you do not upgrade both your motherboard and your hard drive at the same time Vista will not question it. And even if for some reason you did have to do this, you would just have to contact MS Support and explaining the situation. But all you would have to do is stagger the upgrade process if you thought you were going to have issues.





I can understand how some might be unsure if they should switch to Mac as it is an entire hardware, software deal. But isn't Linux supposed to be next to free, and run on the same hardware? If any of you are so fed up with Windows, why not get Linux going and see if it is better, its not like it will cost you that much.





Your methods are to ignore and trivialize and to cause others to do the same.



Your statement: “But isn't Linux supposed to be next to free, and run on the same hardware? If any of you are so fed up with Windows, why not get Linux going and see if it is better, its not like it will cost you that much.”

Shows that you are ignoring the thing that every one is saying.



Myself only just:

MS owns over 90% of the market. Now they are squeezing those that have nowhere else to go in which to enjoy the vast amount of software that they have gained control of in that you need Windows in order to use them.



For professionals at least lack of support from key ISV's is a the major reason for not using linux.



B) im going to use linux as much as i can and xp when i have no choice (uh... like for real life work...)



What was mentioned before is indeed true, the big applications/softwarehouses (MS Office/Adobe Photoshop/Autodesk AutoCAD/Max/Maya) are currently either PC or PC/Mac only and have as far as i know little or no support for linux.



Don't say Gimp or Blender or Open Office will fill the gap, because that isn't the case, people want to use the programs they have always used, thats why it's easier to swap between windows and apple and vice versa than from either one of those to linux because there is no photoshop or word that works in the way people are used to.



It's not ony microsoft that uses it's power a little too much into it's own advantage i'm afraid. We allow it to, because there is no real mass request for big programs to be ran on other operating systems.




And on and on and on. There is a reason people are not going to Linux even though it’s a better OS. You just seem to be ignoring it and all the other answers that people have.

almux
10-17-2006, 11:32 AM
And on and on and on. There is a reason people are not going to Linux even though it’s a better OS. You just seem to be ignoring it and all the other answers that people have.
Well, this is all huxleyism... Most of the declared 95% windows users don't even know that they use an OS... and even less know there are others around. People buy a "computer" and they are all exited about. The mass conditioning does the rest.
Now, with internet, suddenly there's all that talk about different OSs... and few % start gazing away from Microsoft's "solutions" and Microsoft doesn't like that. This cracks MS's "brave new world" and therefore something must be undertaken to pull people back to more allegiance... The word is now: "Let's control them all!"...

Fredl
10-17-2006, 01:07 PM
Read this article (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35057) in The Inquirer.

It seems Microsoft wants to prevent some versions of Vista from running in a virtualized environment.

The way I see it is this will affect Linux users who want to run Vista within virtualization software within Linux.

It may also affect Mac users who want to run Windows in virtualization, such as Paralles Desktop or VMware.

I've got serious concerns about using Vista.

almux
10-17-2006, 08:04 PM
Read this article (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35057) in The Inquirer.

It seems Microsoft wants to prevent some versions of Vista from running in a virtualized environment.

The way I see it is this will affect Linux users who want to run Vista within virtualization software within Linux.

It may also affect Mac users who want to run Windows in virtualization, such as Paralles Desktop or VMware.

I've got serious concerns about using Vista.

This would be the stupydiest move from MS part...
1) With Vista running on Macs, MS will sell more copies
2) In case MS does shut it, the virtualization process will just be acomplished faster: than all windows written apps will natively run on Macs with NO WINDOWS INSTALLATION NEEDED and that will be it!
Times are changing... (even somehow else than expected in the seventies)

PS I must apologize:
I have lately recieved a private mail from a forum user wich pointed on a "trolling" attitude of mine towards windows and microsoft...
I'm really sorry if I was offending by having any sort of "elitist" speach.
What is included in my posts is only the expression of my personal analyses about observed situations and perceptions. I will not have the arrogance to pretend them to be unbiassed by my own perceptions.

KayosIII
10-18-2006, 02:03 AM
It seems Microsoft wants to prevent some versions of Vista from running in a virtualized environment.
The way I see it is this will affect Linux users who want to run Vista within virtualization software within Linux.
It may also affect Mac users who want to run Windows in virtualization, such as Paralles Desktop or VMware.

Microsoft are not going to prevent you from doing this but are going to gouge you by making sure you can only do this with the most expensive versions of vista. Virtualisation is getting hot and will probably get hotter in the near future. By doing this Microsoft are making it Less financially feasable to use a non MS os as the base OS... In the short term at least I think that this will just mean that companies using a non ms host os will stick to XP....

ghopper
10-18-2006, 01:39 PM
Another interesting read: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=158

almux
10-19-2006, 08:39 AM
Another interesting read: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=158
Hum... If it's just an already existing limitation... No problem for none, then...

ffear
10-19-2006, 11:06 AM
Another interesting read: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=158

Noteable quote from the link:
"Retail copies of Windows cost more - much more - than OEM or upgrade copies. In exchange for that premium price, you get significantly greater installation rights. This is a big deal to hobbyists and Windows enthusiasts who want maximum flexibility in licensing. In the hundreds and hundreds of pages of Microsoft documentation I've read, I have never seen even a hint that there is any restriction on reinstallation of a Windows XP retail license, as long as the former copy is removed first. Until Paul printed this quote last week, I've never seen anyone from Microsoft make this argument, either. Not once."

noizFACTORY
10-24-2006, 07:58 AM
Something interesting to read: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

In that case, please go through this as well:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/20/2118243

Mikewilson2k5
10-25-2006, 12:17 AM
haha, i guess i forgot, microsoft is just a business trying to make money, the decisions they make are designed to make them money not friends, so i guess they think they will make more from people who will buy another license than they would by catering to the people who wont, you cant blame a business for trying to make money i guess. I just want to move to an island.....

Without "Friends" you can't make money.

VisualKing
10-25-2006, 12:42 AM
I took this link from here and sent it to Microsoft, so they can see what people are thinking about these decisions that they are making with licensing and all..

I just dont believe that they should be limiting a product down to 1 license. Everyone at one point or another will buy or replace motherboards if thats the case for some hardware failure, and if so...what will happen to the license? get a new one? heck no...

ghopper
10-27-2006, 12:25 AM
Some rather good news, we get 10 activations according to this article (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/10/26/Microsoft_clarifies_Vista_activation_to_bit-tech/) - Well, could be better, but better than what was presumed before.

saltydogdesign
10-27-2006, 02:06 AM
Some rather good news, we get 10 activations according to this article (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/10/26/Microsoft_clarifies_Vista_activation_to_bit-tech/) - Well, could be better, but better than what was presumed before.

Remember when you used to, you know, *own* the things you purchased? Can you imagine if you bought a lamp and it stopped working after you moved it to a different part of the room a few times?

pluMmet
10-27-2006, 06:41 AM
Some rather good news, we get 10 activations according to this article (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/10/26/Microsoft_clarifies_Vista_activation_to_bit-tech/) - Well, could be better, but better than what was presumed before.

I still have a huge problem with programmers having to go thru MS to access the kernel. Allowing me access to my own system thru people I trust is imperative! Without the lowest level access to my system I have no idea if the cpu is cycling or my NID is active. I am no going to get Vista unless that is addressed. No more 3ds Max beyond R9 and no more alot of things that rely on Windows. Over the next 2 years I will watch the Vista situation and most likely go to Linux.

How ever if that article is true this is good news :)

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