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View Full Version : Microsoft aims to scuttle pirated copies of Vista


RobertoOrtiz
10-10-2006, 06:44 PM
Quote:
"Microsoft Corp's <MSFT.O> upcoming Windows Vista computer operating system will include technology that is designed to prevent pirated copies from fully functioning, the software giant said.
Reduced functionality is already a part of the Windows XP activation process, but Windows Vista will have a reduced functionality mode that is enhanced, Microsoft said on its Web site on Wednesday.

Microsoft said the upcoming releases of Windows Vista and also Windows Server "Longhorn" will be the first two products to ship with the new anti-piracy measures included, but more Microsoft products will eventually adopt the technology. "


>>LINK<< (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2529838)

-R

enygma
10-10-2006, 07:32 PM
I only wonder what kind of false positives there will be this time around if the current WGA initiative is any indication. I updated one of our workstations running a boxed non OEM version of XP Pro, and ended up getting warnings everywhere saying that my copy of Windows was counterfeit, then had to wast about half an hour going through one of their links to test if it was genuine, only to fail tests because god forbid, I use Firefox. Then I had to install a couple of apps in order to allow their site to confirm if it is genuine or not. Complete waste of my time. Reason I haven't run updates on the rest of the systems, simply because I couldn't be arsed to waste another half hour of time trying to deal with their stupid schemes.

Sharky0815
10-10-2006, 08:19 PM
Quote:
"a reduced functionality mode that is enhanced"


The jokes practically write themselves....

mech7
10-10-2006, 09:15 PM
I don't know but with XP i know some people who had to activate and it blocked them out of XP after 30 days or so... so what is new then in vista?

Howitzer
10-10-2006, 09:41 PM
Note to self: don't upgrade Vista machines. Upgrades make the computer too 'different' from what it's used to will cause Windows to assume the installation is counterfet.

mustique
10-10-2006, 10:11 PM
Note to self: don't upgrade Vista machines. Upgrades make the computer too 'different' from what it's used to will cause Windows to assume the installation is counterfet.

Looks like a dark era for PC enthusiasts and OEMs.
Windows ows its popularity to the OEM business and now MS bites the hand that fed them for so long. Time to get more serious with Linux.

trthing
10-11-2006, 12:36 AM
The jokes practically write themselves....

Quoted for agreement

richcz3
10-11-2006, 01:21 AM
Howitzer - Where did you get that quote from? Are you making that assumption? It's not in the article.

Microsoft has every right to protect their software and the billions in investments made in it.

The problem I have is when the user is punished and the "fair use" line is crossed by software and hardware manufacturers. If anyone spends time updating their components, how different will Vista deal with this than XP does? What is my immediate recourse if my workstation loses "Functionality" near a deadline?

I'm not buying into the whole "Trusted Computing" initiative that is being brought onto the users. There is a point where the protection schemes end up punishing the paying user.

Fredl
10-11-2006, 02:19 AM
"PC Phone Home"

Your Vista PC will have to collect information about your set-up, and automatically send it back to Microsoft HQ at Redmond.

Is that what people want?

Microsoft uses piracy in China
I read that most people using Windows in China are using pirated copies. That may sound bad, but the if Microsoft clamps down on it they'll find themselves without Windows users in China.

The Chinese people will just use free Linux instead, because it's difficult or impossible for most people there to afford a full priced seat of Windows.

PhilOsirus
10-11-2006, 03:39 AM
What I really dislike about such issues is that currently, with almost every Windows update, I get a Genuine-whatever license check to download. When I install it and it checks to see if my Windows copy is legit (and it is) it never says "Yes! Your copy is legit!" instead I get absolutely no feedback and I end up having to download it again at the next Windows update. It's as if even if it detects a legit copy, MS prefers to just say "no illegal copy detected, but MAYBE you're a thief anyway!".

Glenfx
10-11-2006, 04:16 AM
HAHA, i know im going to be flamed by this, but..

Why create such handicaps and annoyances when you make billions of dollars anyway?
Bill Gates is one of the richest man in the world, even so that he literally throws money away in big chunks. So why screw the little guys with stupid things like this?


For example, i like to load my games without having to insert the god damn cd everytime i
want to play because there is a freaking "anti piracy" thing on the cd. (thank god for no-cd craks ;))

Same thing happened with windows, i coudnt upgrade to sp2 because it gave me some error, had to wait 24 hours till i got my problem solved and be able to upgrade.

I wont upgrade to windows vista until it gets absolutely necesary.. tho i think for my needs, windows xp will last till end of times XD.

unless microsoft disables windows xp with a sort of virus or something so people is forced to upgrade ^_^.. hey, it can happen O_o... its allready happening with games... you wont be able to play Halo 2 unless you purchase vista ;) (upgrade or die)

In the end "anti-piracy" measures hurt everyone BUT the pirates. (Name me one piece of software, dongle, game or movie that hasnt been fully pirated.)

EDIT:
"no illegal copy detected, but MAYBE you're a thief anyway!"
HAHA SOOO TRUE!!

Apoclypse
10-11-2006, 04:20 AM
So what now? If you are not running the right hardware, it must be priated? What about if you decide that you like to use some content which isn't drmed according to microsoft rules, does that make your pc unusable. I like the vagueness of it all. Considering how bad it is now, I can just imagine.

EnlightenedPixel
10-11-2006, 05:01 AM
Makes me wonder if theyre trying to put a little bit of a kink in bootcampers bootlegging.

pluMmet
10-11-2006, 08:12 AM
Microsoft has every right to protect their software and the billions in investments made in it.

LMAO...
You mean the billions they spent in suppressing the competition? This 'Trusted Computing' is insane. They want control of my computer kernel. The computer I own!

Software makers will have to submit their programs to be compiled by MS. This is worse then Trons master control program that steals programs. They want you to just hand them over.


I haven't switched to Linux yet but when everyone is forcing Vista I will be.

l.l.l. (Long Live Linx)

mdee
10-11-2006, 09:46 AM
I am afraid this will affect legal users mostly, like this genuine check which pops up on perfectly legal machines. Pirates will crack this whole protection scheme in a week, as always.
I've really bad feelings about vista, it may be the end of MS domination on OS markets. IMO they go into wrong direction (not only with "antipiracy" measures, but with lots of other things too).
All I need is Photoshop, ZBrush and decent editing program on linux....

danshewan
10-11-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm not buying into the whole "Trusted Computing" initiative that is being brought onto the users. There is a point where the protection schemes end up punishing the paying user.

I know this has been posted before, but I thought it was particularly apt for this discussion.....

http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

quyeno
10-11-2006, 10:34 AM
linux is getting stronger and better, eventually it won't be long until its more consumer friendly and that will be the end of windows. i don't think Vista's security will be as tight as MS makes out, at the end of the day every pc running windows is potentially not running any other OS, wether its legit or not.

Azmodan Kijur
10-11-2006, 10:37 AM
Sadly, that does mean that the pirates will have the most functionality out of the software as they care little for the anti-piracy schemes that companies create. How many games can you name that has had a restrictive enough CD-key protection system with a check that slowed or disabled the game for legitimate users. I've had them and it got so bad with one that I downloaded a crack just to remove the protection system. I owned the game, but it was annoying to watch it authenticate all the time.

I've always loved (in a sarcastic way) the attitude of software makers anyway. It's our software and we own it. This is but a license. Only use it this way and that. Blah blah blah. It's their software when it works, but if it damages a piece of your computer equipment, it's yours. I've read enough EULA's to know that they have all the rights and benefits of my purchase, but are oddly absent when the software malfunctions. Where is and as is for that part, but they own it the rest of the time. Not sure if that's actually legal.

ThirdEye
10-11-2006, 10:48 AM
I wonder if they realize they're just doing Apple a favour.

salmonmoose
10-11-2006, 11:07 AM
I wonder if they realize they're just doing Apple a favour.

By pushing illegitimate users to using OSX? :D

ThirdEye
10-11-2006, 11:29 AM
By pushing illegitimate users to using OSX? :D

Nope, by pushing legitimate users to using an OS that forces you to jump thru hoops to get the OS itself working. Also if i were an illegitimate user using a cracked copy of XP and then i had to choose between a legit copy of OSX and Vista i'm not sure i'd choose Vista at all.

ThomasMahler
10-11-2006, 02:16 PM
I think it's the first time in computer history now that people actually have a real choice. Heck, even my mother is buying a Mac Mini now, instead of a PC Laptop for mails and the net - And Linux distrubtions are becoming more and more comfortable. I love how SUSE Linux developed, I even bought a copy of Sled, cause I think that Novell is on the right path. I was always very afraid of using Linux, but the last few distros that I tried really changed my mind.

I don't think that Vista will be as easy to sell as XP was - XP was basically the successor for Windows 98 based on the 2k codebase, which was a big step forward, since 98 (even the SE with all the updates) had tons of issues. The problem is that I don't quite see why people should switch - they get 'Aero', their PCs will perform a lot worse and there's not too much too it. We get iLife copies and a few niceties, but that's basically it. So why switch?

If Apple and Linux don't get more market share once Vista has launched, then so be it. But I do think that OSX and Linux are more attractive than they've ever been. Heck, if Adobe would finally port their applications over to Linux, I probably wouldn't even use Windows anymore.

Also, I think that all the Google OS rumors are pretty interesting - I think it'd be very logical for Google to take the next step, work together with one of the major linux distro companies and put all of their services right into the core of an OS. If they'd do it right, they could win a lot of market share.

Qslugs
10-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Also, assuming that Vista will be the same price as XP pro was, thats 300 bucks a copy. OSX on the other hand, is only what 110 a copy?



Nope, by pushing legitimate users to using an OS that forces you to jump thru hoops to get the OS itself working. Also if i were an illegitimate user using a cracked copy of XP and then i had to choose between a legit copy of OSX and Vista i'm not sure i'd choose Vista at all.

ThomasMahler
10-11-2006, 03:10 PM
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_pricing.asp

I'm pretty sure I'd want to get Ultimate - Even though I'm pretty sure I wouldn't speed 400 USD on Vista, so I'd stay with WinXP SP2 as long as possible.

400 USD is quite a lot for an operating system nowadays. I bought SLED for 50 USD, that's about 35 EUR. And for 599 USD, you'd already get a Mac Mini with OSX, FrontRow and iLife, which is basically like Vista Ultimate Deluxe.

enygma
10-11-2006, 03:15 PM
I love how SUSE Linux developed, I even bought a copy of Sled, cause I think that Novell is on the right path. I was always very afraid of using Linux, but the last few distros that I tried really changed my mind.
I just picked up OpenSUSE 10.1 64bit and installed it on one of my workstations, replacing Fedora Core 4. Windows XP 64 is also on that system. Since throwing OpenSUSE on that thing, I haven't looked back at Windows yet. I'm really liking how far SUSE has come since I last used it at SUSE 9.1 Professional. Maya installed without issue, Mental Ray satellite installed and ran without issue as well. Lovin' it.

MadMax
10-11-2006, 03:41 PM
This is pretty much to the point where my attitude is to drop the "F" bomb on the discussion.

"F" Microsoft.

I tinker with my hardware a lot. add more ram, try out new card or device, swap CPU for latest and greatest, and so on.

I have little interest in having to sit on hold for an hour waiting to reactivate my license.

Being mostly a graphics kind of user, almost everything I use has a Linux port anyway, so I don't really care. I'm quite fine with giving M$ the one fingered salute and going to Linux only machines. Maya and Houdini run better on Linux anyway.

I have a Playstation if I want to play games.

heck Linux even has HTPC type software like PVR/DVR software, multimedia center functions etc.

I'm pretty sick and tired of all the M$ spyware anyway. Play a DVD WMP phones home to report what I'm watching. I can do without all that crap bogging down my system.

mech7
10-11-2006, 03:43 PM
Yes but apple's core business is hardware not software

Also, assuming that Vista will be the same price as XP pro was, thats 300 bucks a copy. OSX on the other hand, is only what 110 a copy?

RockinAkin
10-11-2006, 03:51 PM
Pirates will crack this whole protection scheme in a week, as always.
Agreed - if history has proven everything - investing in anti-piracy measures for software is just wasted money.

richcz3
10-11-2006, 04:25 PM
I know this has been posted before, but I thought it was particularly apt for this discussion.....

http://www.lafkon.net/tc/

Great link. If anyone wanted to get the quick explained concept of - Trusted Computing (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34977) - check out the link danshewan posted.

These new computers start shipping in big number starting in 2007. Im sure there are already hand held units that are chipped accordingly. For anyone that builds their own systems, expect some gray area issues to arise. I'll look for the links and post them.

Signal2Noise
10-11-2006, 06:10 PM
Quote:
"Microsoft Corp's <MSFT.O> ....Reduced functionality is already a part of the Windows XP...



Say no more. :D

Wizdoc
10-11-2006, 06:35 PM
Of course, the pirate copy will be cracked and all these "features" will be disabled, so the only ones suffering will be the legitimate users.

Synthesizer
10-11-2006, 07:09 PM
I've twice had to call MS support after reinstalling windows (which happens every few months because something's screwing up...) because it thinks I've activated windows too many times. Has anyone ever called their support? I had to say the numbers rather then type them into my phone, until I found out that I could type, after it couldn't understand me...

I also recently installed Ubuntu, which I love. Too bad more programs and games weren't made for linux, the whole environment is much friendlier I think.

Jiokah
10-11-2006, 07:37 PM
In the end "anti-piracy" measures hurt everyone BUT the pirates. (Name me one piece of software, dongle, game or movie that hasnt been fully pirated.

Too true. What's the point of these anti-piracy measures? It'll be cracked in a week, pirates will be happy, and legit users will be screwed.

USE LINUX OR OSX INSTEAD!!

You'll save money, time, headache, and be much much happier. Linux is great, I know nothing about it and I'm doing fine with the SuSE distribtuion. It does everything, is fast, very customizable, looks great, and comes shipped with about 20 programs for ANY task you can think of. Heck, it even comes with a tea cooker (I'm serious).

Here, for those of you who are curious, try it out:
http://www.novell.com/linux/

charleyc
10-11-2006, 07:56 PM
Having the attitude that we can't win, so don't fight is a losers attitude. If you won't fight, you will not win. The more awareness made about piracy and the fact that it is stealing, and wrong, the more deterrence may be found. It is easy to be so cynical. I hate the fact that I HAVE to have anti-virus on my systems. It is a major problem, not mentioning that it costs money. I hate the process of transferring licenses from one machine to another every time I upgrade. But I will do it, because I don't like the feeling of someone stealing from me, or from knowingly stealing from others.

It just amazes me how much effort and negative focus is given to the companies who attempt this stuff (anti-piracy), yet I read nothing attacking or detesting the people who are actually causing the problem. The hackers and pirates. Perhaps it is that many of us either currently are or in the past were on one side or the other with these guys. We would rather project our guilty discomfort coupled with our zealousness of their perceived financial success to a seemingly less personal corporation rather than looking at ourselves and trying to do what we can. It is shameful for someone to steal, even if it is from the rich, all societies reflect this. I am glad that companies try to protect what is theirs. If I should ever find myself on their end of things, I would want protection as well. We should not attack those who are not in the wrong when we know who are.

JeroenDStout
10-11-2006, 08:04 PM
This is pretty much to the point where my attitude is to drop the "F" bomb on the discussion.
With all due respect, saying 'the "F" bomb' instead of 'fuÁk' is rather daft.

I'm pondering Linux, anyway :scream:

Tlock
10-11-2006, 08:14 PM
i have been a computer user since before the floppy drive for PC's came out and i have to say i haven't seen such a strong movement for other operating systems such as OSX and Linux in the history of computing. I have been a windows user and my brother is Mac user, and i now have one MacBook for the wife and even though i will probably always use Windows, i'm getting myself a MacBook Pro very soon. Now we are in a new age of Computing where real competition can begin. OSX and Linux are slowly eating away at MS shares.

Arrrgh4life
10-11-2006, 08:36 PM
Yes but apple's core business is hardware not software

But with them moving to intel processrers, I can see the average computer no-it-all being able to easilly build a fully functunall PC to run OS X, or even better, Apple to make a version of OS X to run on PC (I doubt it though, like you said they do rely heavly on there hardware).

charleyc
10-11-2006, 08:57 PM
i have been a computer user since before the floppy drive for PC's came out and i have to say i haven't seen such a strong movement for other operating systems such as OSX and Linux in the history of computing. I have been a windows user and my brother is Mac user, and i now have one MacBook for the wife and even though i will probably always use Windows, i'm getting myself a MacBook Pro very soon. Now we are in a new age of Computing where real competition can begin. OSX and Linux are slowly eating away at MS shares.


MS dominates the world in its user base so severely that this slow 'eating away' will take decades to make much difference. We (as a specific industry presence) have a much greater care and concern for this kind of thing that most all the rest of the computer using world. The millions and millions of industries that use software tied specifically to certain OS's probably couldn't care less about what OS they use (aside from price) as they probably would otherwise consider it a waste of their time. The average home user also has little concern for the specifics and tend to side with whomever they know that has an opinion of the sort, for no reason of their own. If I was barely computer literate, why would I want a different OS than all my friends had?

The idea of persuading others to jump on one OS or another because of a loyalist view is odd to me. I would not try and persuade a 3ds max, or CAD user to get OSX, nor a Mac user invested in image/video software to jump on Windows...that would be foolish. Besides, the best a loyalist can hope for is a widespread adoption for their preferred OS, which is exactly what will attract the negative attention we see aimed at Windows today. So even if a vast majority jumped to a 'more secure' OS today, tomorrow it would be in the same boat as Windows. I have to think that if I used one of the lesser used OS's today for the sake of security, I would not be shouting out to others to jump on board. Some of those others may just be the people causing problems with MS.

Anyway, my take on all this...

pluMmet
10-11-2006, 09:05 PM
It just amazes me how much effort and negative focus is given to the companies who attempt this stuff (anti-piracy), yet I read nothing attacking or detesting the people who are actually causing the problem. The hackers and pirates.

The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out. Hackers do us a favor by exploiting issues that are there many times on purpose. The real day will be when you have an OS that gives you complete control of your system. There are however to many Benjamins involved to let that happen.



"Gator" used to be "spy ware" that came with divx until the Gator folks sued people who called it spy ware. Now it is not spy ware! Did the program change? No it did not. It just happens that these spies have enough money to be able to spy. They have changed their tactics since then but the lesson is valid.


Linux is the best option but how I wish Amiga Workbench would come back!

charleyc
10-11-2006, 09:21 PM
The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out. Hackers do us a favor by exploiting issues that are there many times on purpose. The real day will be when you have an OS that gives you complete control of your system. There are however to many Benjamins involved to let that happen....


Hackers do us a favor!!???

What!!!???

pluMmet
10-11-2006, 09:41 PM
Hackers do us a favor!!???

What!!!???

They do us the same favor that they do corporations who hire them to break into their systems.

Is that hard to grasp or something? Believe it or not not all hackers are out to steal your WOW account!

danshewan
10-11-2006, 09:56 PM
MS dominates the world in its user base so severely that this slow 'eating away' will take decades to make much difference.

Not necessarily true. There is more than one factor that affects market dominance for any product, and it never relies solely on the advantages of the actual product itself. Is Coca-Cola better than Pepsi? Exactly. So why does Coca-Cola shift more units than Pepsi does? Is it because they sell a better cola? Of course not.

As everyone on this thread (and probably on this site) knows, Microsoft has one of the lowest consumer trust ratings of any corporation on the planet. Couple this with the now-widely 'accepted' hardware / support issues that plague Windows users, and what do you have? Lots of PC users that are royally pissed off with MS, and seeking a new way to do what they do. Do most of them care about asinine fanboy arguments like Vista vs. OSX? Probably not - they just want the software they've paid good money for to work.

charleyc
10-11-2006, 09:56 PM
So...hackers are good because they can be used by companies to find weaknesses that may be attacked by hackers. Is that about right?

And, ironically, it is the very results of this kind of reseach that leads to the topic of this thread in the first place.

pluMmet
10-11-2006, 10:09 PM
So...hackers are good because they can be used by companies to find weaknesses that may be attacked by hackers. Is that about right?

You amaze me in that you quote me:
Originally Posted by pluMmet
The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out. Hackers do us a favor by exploiting issues that are there many times on purpose. The real day will be when you have an OS that gives you complete control of your system. There are however to many Benjamins involved to let that happen....

Then ignore the context of the quote "The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out."

Are all cops good? Are all cops bad?

Microsoft wants access to your computer and to be able to decide who else can have access without your deciding. Any hacker that uses Microsofts doors in an effort to expose the door has done everyone a favor.

Try no isolating the phrase "hackers do us a favor."

charleyc
10-11-2006, 10:10 PM
Not necessarily true. There is more than one factor that affects market dominance for any product, and it never relies solely on the advantages of the actual product itself. Is Coca-Cola better than Pepsi? Exactly. So why does Coca-Cola shift more units than Pepsi does? Is it because they sell a better cola? Of course not.

As everyone on this thread (and probably on this site) knows, Microsoft has one of the lowest consumer trust ratings of any corporation on the planet. Couple this with the now-widely 'accepted' hardware / support issues that plague Windows users, and what do you have? Lots of PC users that are royally pissed off with MS, and seeking a new way to do what they do. Do most of them care about asinine fanboy arguments like Vista vs. OSX? Probably not - they just want the software they've paid good money for to work.

This is wishful thinking. MS probably has well over 70% of the worlds USER BASE, and it is probably a lot closer to 90% as I seem to recall that is around the percentage of IE users relative to other browsers (I am assuming that IE users also use Windows). Pepsi and Coke share a relatively equal user base and pale in any sort of comparison of user preference. How many are 'lots'? 5%, 10%...? I know it is not 25%. That would mean that 1 out of 4 Windows users are 'royally pissed off' I happen to know a good many more than 4 and I can tell you that not many of them really care what OS they use, nor to many of them have any sort of hardware/support issues.

Please do not take me for a Windows loyalist. I really don't care who makes the software I need to make a living. But I think we should at least have a realistic view on things. Perhaps in the near future, we will begin to see a positive shift in OS dominance, I don't think it is far fetched to believe one day it could happen. But I think there is little evidence at this point. Major retailers where I live still do not carry Mac or Linux alternatives. To me this says that more people are still buying Windows based systems.

charleyc
10-11-2006, 10:17 PM
You amaze me in that you quote me:
Originally Posted by pluMmet
The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out. Hackers do us a favor by exploiting issues that are there many times on purpose. The real day will be when you have an OS that gives you complete control of your system. There are however to many Benjamins involved to let that happen....

Then ignore the context of the quote "The reason is that MS and the like want to have access to your stuff while keeping others out."

Are all cops good? Are all cops bad?

Microsoft wants access to your computer and to be able to decide who else can have access without your deciding. Any hacker that uses Microsofts doors in an effort to expose the door has done everyone a favor.

Try no isolating the phrase "hackers do us a favor."

Sorry, I think I see what you meant.... I am just not sure how it pertains to why people choose to jump all over the companies rather than the malicious people who are the actual cause of the problem.


Edit:

I think you have done confused me. Are you saying that hackers are good, or are you saying they are bad? It seems to me you are saying that they are better than the companies who make the software they hack into because in some way it protects us from these companies....is that right?

Saurus
10-11-2006, 10:22 PM
When talking about OS vs. OS numbers, hack versions of Window arenít counted in the total of number users. Number of Window base users is way bigger when included hacked versions. If those hacked users are force to choose an OS, thereís a good change Window will still be dominant.

danshewan
10-11-2006, 10:27 PM
Perhaps in the near future, we will begin to see a positive shift in OS dominance, I don't think it is far fetched to believe one day it could happen.

I'm not disputing the obvious - what would be the point, in today's computing climate?

What I'm saying is that this predicted (and inevitable) 'positive shift' in OS dominance will not take years, at least not in the sense of the phrase as I interpret it. By this, I do not mean that such a a change will happen within months, but rather that it will not take as many years for MS to fall as it did for them to rise to dominance.

The way Microsoft have continually failed to meet consumer expectations, or substantially improve their existing products can only lead to one thing - and why, in today's computing climate, should it take years for market trends to reflect consumer desire? Is not supply and demand one of the fundamental principles of economics? Granted, as you have said, many Windows users do not care (or have need to care) about what OS they use. But the number of us that do is growing every day. And their competitors will be waiting.

Man, I need to catch up on this whole hacker argument...... must've dozed off......

charleyc
10-11-2006, 10:39 PM
The problem is that most of Windows users do not feel that MS has failed them in any way. They have next to no expectations. That is the beauty of their position. They got to seed millions and millions in an envirment with little to no competition. Many users are still not comfortable enough to tackle newer, better programs when upgrades to existing ones are available. They would not change OS because it would be like relearning everything to them. And most of these people carry their hardware for years before they upgrade. Most people have computers for the software they use, not for the platform that software can sit on. I think that unless a new OS came out tomorrow that provided an extremely user friendly atmosphere (I am thinking Star Trek, talk to the computer easy) with programs and tools that blew away what is currently available, I could see a massive shift. Short of something crazy like that, I think it will take many years. There just doesn't seem to be enough (to me) difference in the overall function of any OS today. But who knows what the future holds.

salmonmoose
10-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Microsoft wants access to your computer and to be able to decide who else can have access without your deciding. Any hacker that uses Microsofts doors in an effort to expose the door has done everyone a favor.

You realise that's akin to saying "It's great that people find new ways of breaking into my house, because it alerts everyone to the flaws in my home security".

Jiokah
10-12-2006, 01:15 AM
You realise that's akin to saying "It's great that people find new ways of breaking into my house, because it alerts everyone to the flaws in my home security".

I think what he means is that companies hire hackers to break into the systems these companies make just so they know how secure it is. So to use your illustration, the company builds a house, installs their security system, and pays a highly-trained theif to crack it so they know how to improve their system. But maybe that's not what he means, who knows.

Howitzer
10-12-2006, 01:32 AM
Sorry, my first post in this thread was a bit of fud.

There is, and shall always be a cracked copy for everything. If you purchase Vista and it claims it's counterfet no matter what you do, you can still fix it.

I'm not advocating piracy, but Microsoft's anti-piracy measures may be doing just that.

JeroenDStout
10-12-2006, 01:56 AM
I think what he means is that companies hire hackers to break into the systems these companies make just so they know how secure it is. So to use your illustration, the company builds a house, installs their security system, and pays a highly-trained theif to crack it so they know how to improve their system. But maybe that's not what he means, who knows.
"Can you steal my priceless 9th dynasty vase?"
"Don't worry ma'am - I'm a trained proffesional."

JohnnyRandom
10-12-2006, 02:53 AM
Sure be great if developers would sell you their software and you compile it in whatever enviroment you like. Oh yeah they used to do that...

The only reason M$ has such a strong hold in the OS market...

99.99999 percent of people that have bought boxed-up-ready-to-go-computers don't even know how-what-why the damn thing works, they just want to surf, watch, listen, and everything thing to work honky-dory and for that it just about does.

Well for that populas M$ has just done a dandy-andy job. It is real users that will always be effected by all the ludicrous crap that is going on in this "war against sofware terror", and since Adobe, Autodesk, and other large players are hazingly slow to adopt Linux/Unix/Irix or any othe IX os, we are just going suffer. Well I actually have a version 3 of photoshop written for Unix (not enough money there to continue development I guess, shit they wont even send me a license for it anymore)

With the advent of the internet there will NEVER again be a safe piece of code, it's all 1 & 0 's, all the money spent and wasted on anti-piracy measures by all companies could quite possibly outscale the cost of just giving away the software.

Oh well:shrug:

pluMmet
10-12-2006, 08:31 AM
Everyone seems to be getting the jist of what I was saying. I just need to learn to say it better ;)


If I say that hackers help us then people take that to mean every bit of hacking everywhere. That's not what I meant. There is a hacking group that I saw in Wired magazine that goes against MS and the like on our behalf. I later saw on the now defunct TechTV the same group and how the FBI tried to infiltrate them (even though they do us a favor) due to the same reason that the group that found that Sony had illegally put spy ware on their music disks would get in trouble for telling everyone because it was illegal the way they had to crack the Sony program to find out!

We almost didn't find out about this: http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005Nov/sec20051103033067.htm
due to the fact that the hackers used illegal methods to uncover it!


Anyway that's allot to say to explain what I meant...I need to find a way to consolidate that for easy reference in situations like this :)

BTW: defination of spyware from the acticle: "deployed without appropriate user consent" and it also "impairs user control over ... use of their system resources."

Taking away use of your system recources is the accepted quality of Vista. over a Gig of RAM in high RAM systems. Not giving you access to your own Kernel! Who ever has the money will be granted by MS the rights to your recources!!!

charleyc
10-12-2006, 09:04 AM
pluMmet - This goes back to what I had said earlier. These software pirates and hackers are not doing us any good at all. From what I gathered reading the article, Sony used a tool to cloak its files, probably as an anti-piracy measure. Had it not been for people illegally copying CD's, Sony would have never had to resort to such measures. It is a vicious cycle that starts with the hacker/pirate. It costs software developers a lot of money to initiate and execute anti-piracy technology. They would not do this if there wasn't a substantial loss because of piracy. If hackers did not work to provide methods for stealing software, pirates would have a lot more trouble attaining it and companies would not have to waste valuable development time protecting it. Software hackers/pirates are not people who help our society.

ThirdEye
10-12-2006, 09:19 AM
Windows won't lose any customers at all. Apple OSX comes only with Macs (and not everyone can afford a Mac or wants to buy one), Linux is either too difficult for the average John Doe or there are driver problems, or app compatibility issues (Adobe products?) etc. Until these problems get fixed Windows will keep dominating the pc platform.

pluMmet
10-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Windows won't lose any customers at all. Apple OSX comes only with Macs (and not everyone can afford a Mac or wants to buy one), Linux is either too difficult for the average John Doe or there are driver problems, or app compatibility issues (Adobe products?) etc. Until these problems get fixed Windows will keep dominating the pc platform.

Unfortunately I find this completely correct!

charleyc- If I have a music CD and I loan it to a friend then I am not using it so no one would say that that is piracy...What if I put that music on .mp3 and I have 100 friends and any one of them can listen to it at any time as long as not more that one person is listening to it at one time?

That statement is meant to confuse the issue! The reason being that the issue will always be confused in some manner or another. The real issue is how people in control respond!

I'm not sure you fully understand the intent of the "Trusted Computing" initiative. Please let me explain:

Geek.com has an article about 2 different groups that had learned to create diamonds: http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2...30827021485.htm (http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Aug/bch20030827021485.htm)
De Beers has allot to loose in this as they have more diamonds then every man, woman and child on this planet as reported by 60 Minutes. With such a supply diamonds are worthless without De Beers controlling their release of diamonds. Notice the last part of ERIC'S OPINION Section of the article "There are even rumors that the heads of Gemesis and Apollo have received death threats from shadowy figures in the diamond world."


With trusted computing the owners of geek.com will have no control over the integrity of that article. If De Beers can convince some judge that geek.com has suggested that the shadowy figures was a reference to De Beers then the courts would notify Microsoft and the MS OS controlling the geek.com website would be entered by MS and any reference to De Beers would be removed. And that is just the beginning! A list of users that copied the article would be given to MS and they would enter their computers and make the same changes.

So one judge thinks that the action is wrong and everyone is submitted to the decision. The checks and balances are gone!

Hackers break laws! You keep saying how hackers hurt us and I keep trying to get you to understand that no group of people are all good or all bad. If I break into something and find out that you have a wire tap on you and tell you about it it is illegal. Youíd be glad to know but it is illegal. Does that mean that youíre doing something wrong and you deserve to not know? Maybe- Maybe not.

Trusted Computing puts too much control in too few hands!

pixelmonk
10-12-2006, 10:58 AM
Sure be great if developers would sell you their software and you compile it in whatever enviroment you like. Oh yeah they used to do that...

The only reason M$ has such a strong hold in the OS market...

99.99999 percent of people that have bought boxed-up-ready-to-go-computers don't even know how-what-why the damn thing works, they just want to surf, watch, listen, and everything thing to work honky-dory and for that it just about does.

Well for that populas M$ has just done a dandy-andy job. It is real users that will always be effected by all the ludicrous crap that is going on in this "war against sofware terror", and since Adobe, Autodesk, and other large players are hazingly slow to adopt Linux/Unix/Irix or any othe IX os, we are just going suffer. Well I actually have a version 3 of photoshop written for Unix (not enough money there to continue development I guess, shit they wont even send me a license for it anymore)

With the advent of the internet there will NEVER again be a safe piece of code, it's all 1 & 0 's, all the money spent and wasted on anti-piracy measures by all companies could quite possibly outscale the cost of just giving away the software.

Oh well:shrug:

It's "Microsoft".. not "M$". I wonder who you consider a "real user"? Yourself? Who? I find it funny you think we're all made to suffer by the lack of *nix versions for particular software from particular vendors. Some of us "real users" are in fact quite happy with our XP or OSX boxes and the software that can be used on them. I could see how a *nix user could be jaded by the popularity of Windows and MacOS.

charleyc
10-12-2006, 10:58 AM
LOL

So, anyway. How about that new plan for a more secure Vista.

pluMmet
10-12-2006, 11:42 AM
The problem has never been that MS could not make a secure OS. They just can't seem to make one that allows only them access ;)


Hackers are our greatest asset in that! :)

Have a nice day :scream:

DoubleSupercool
10-12-2006, 12:11 PM
Agree with ThirdEye above RE: OS's. Linux isn't going anywhere anytime soon and you have to make a complete switch to go OS X. Personally, my next computer will be an Apple as I am doing more 2D/post stuff and I like the apps, but I will have a PC for 3D stuff.

As for piracy protection etc, as been said on this thread many times before, it will be a 0 day hack, guaranteed. This has irritated me for a while. Obviously companies just can't give up and have no protection, but seriously, the people it inconveniences and annoys are generally legit users.

Look at Steam . . . what a freaking nightmare getting that installed and HL2 playing. THen the whole issue of having to be internet connected all the time. Then when I turn off that feature due to not having internet for 2 weeks, it won't connect again and I can't update. Uninstall and reinstall Steam and HL2 4 times and it finally works again. Meanwhile, Joe Pirate is playing the game just fine. That is like kicking you in the balls and apologising by doing it again :curious:

JohnnyRandom
10-12-2006, 04:36 PM
I find it funny you think we're all made to suffer by the lack of *nix versions for particular software from particular vendors.
I like OSX and I'd love to see Max run on it, and I'm sure others feel the same way, not going to happen but...

It's not necessarily that something hasn't been adopted to ix, it is that developers have seemed to adopt this "we'll make it for this and not that" of very popular software packages leaving the end-user with the option of buying multiple machines/with multiple OS's, this wasn't always the case.

That is like kicking you in the balls and apologising by doing it again :curious:

LMAO

Sorry Off topic

richcz3
10-12-2006, 05:29 PM
The whole punish the user was "Supposed" to be addressed by Trusted Computing". Hardware manufacturers and Software developers would have had an unintrusive encryption method signing off applications without a hit on the user. Of course, it has since morphed into a system that holds the user in contempt but now has the ability to render your hardware/software under their control.

I'm building a new PC today knowing that in maybe a year or two that's going to be frowned on. Trusted Computing will push to have PCs to be bought retail or by designated suppliers or suffer lack of features on home built units.

mech7
10-12-2006, 08:23 PM
Look at Steam . . . what a freaking nightmare getting that installed and HL2 playing. THen the whole issue of having to be internet connected all the time. Then when I turn off that feature due to not having internet for 2 weeks, it won't connect again and I can't update. Uninstall and reinstall Steam and HL2 4 times and it finally works again. Meanwhile, Joe Pirate is playing the game just fine. That is like kicking you in the balls and apologising by doing it again :curious:


Yeah Steam is really a pile of cr#p

jtraveller
10-14-2006, 03:58 AM
All the debate is actually about the Trusted Computing initiative, not about how bad Msoft is or how kewl *nix is.

the vast majority of users arent going to suffer unless they upgrade their software, which, lest be honest, wont happen anytime soon, theyll just get on with the program and wont question a thing, i include my family and most of my friends and coworkers.
oh, yeah, they arent buying vista anytime soon, either, for they bought their boxes with XP.
thats for most of the real world, a few false positives here and there and the eventual patch for them, and thats it.

the first problem comes for business which need to buy several licenses, thats going to hurt them given the price and the constant nagging of the OS (im basing this on the last vista review i read, it may change), plus, not many companies outside USA are fully connected to the net, or connected at all.

but the real problem comes for us, the enthusiasts, we need the hardware and software fitted for special purposes.

i need to use apps like 3dsmax (actually the BIG anchor for me, as i do models for gaming and intend to keep doing it for a while) or the adobe dinamic duo (PS & AI).
i have ubuntu for preety much everything but "real" work, for that i need to switch to windows and turn off the cable mode (i dont know about you, people, but i hate to see how 20 people has been sniffing my ports after 15 minutes of starting up XP).
and unless autodesk, maxon and adobe start supporting linux, im afraid (VERY afraid) i will have to do the switch.

im afraid that in the future, the not so far future, many programs are going to be labeled "insecure" by microsoft and the trusted computer, and illegal not much later (call me paraoid).
also hardware vendors, to comply with the main OS requirements (and the main chip maker, intel), may, just may, start making things hard for linuxes and for the competition of the brands which support the TCI.

it just MAY be, or not, but considering the statements from microsoft the last 3 years or so, i think thats where things are heading to.


honestly, folks, i wish i could use my tools of trade in linux.

oh, yeah, one more thing... i used to be sort of scared of linux until past year, when after a huge virus caused crash (which, by the way, came DIRECTLY from my ISP, as i knew later) i decided to install ubuntu and found the switch much smoother than i tought, no hardware issues, my nvida card worked with the nvidia drivers for linux and so on, besides, i feel the machine much faster :P.
in the other side, using windows offline is a bit dull, but i have suffered no virus so far, and being without an active antivirus every second eating the resources things are still fast after 6 months.

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