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pabitel
02-03-2003, 01:49 PM
For those who have been extensively using v10, have you seen any improvements outside of stability? Is the renderer any better? Is the renderer any faster?

PJC
02-03-2003, 04:23 PM
The Renderer is better, yes. I haven't found any black specks and I believe it is faster!

As an example, a render that I was trying to do in 8.5 that kept on running out of memory, well, it rendered just fine in v10, and rendered faster as well.

I've heard v10 is stable, and the last beta I used (before my subscription ran out) was pretty darn solid. Actually my last pin-up for the comic book FUSED! was rendered in v10. I think it the best renderer Hash has had in a while.

will know more when my v10 gets here.

- pjc

Wegg
02-03-2003, 04:41 PM
Did they really get rid of ray-traced soft shadows and oversample?

pabitel
02-03-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by PJC

will know more when my v10 gets here.

- pjc

Thanks for the info.

Have you been waiting long for Hash to send it to you? Some other guy posted that he ordered it a week earlier and still hadn't received it.

PJC
02-03-2003, 06:29 PM
no, no. just ordered it. I've never had any problem getting stuff from Hash, I just hadn't ordered v10 yet.

- pjc

John Keates
02-03-2003, 06:56 PM
I can't comment about the speed of the v10 renderer because I got v10 at the same time as a new computer. But I can say that I got black specks on an animation that I did. They appeared on a neck ruff. It is made of a length of patches with a transparency map. AM seems to have trouble with papery objects like this. There is also a lot of bias handle adjustment going on.

One thing that I would realy like is decent depth of field and motion-blurr.

I have tried attaching an image but I don't know if it will work (never done it before).

John Keates
02-03-2003, 06:58 PM
Oh good, it worked! You can see the specks mostly in the bottom-right corner. I think that this should be fixed by now. At the very least they could provide some sort of filter to remove isolated pixells.

John Keates
02-03-2003, 07:01 PM
PS- yes, I know she has no tongue. That will come later.

PJC
02-03-2003, 07:42 PM
Do you have an Alpha for that image. Just wondering if the black specks were in that as well. That's what happened in v8.5, it almost seemed as if there were "holes" in the render.

- pjc

Wegg
02-03-2003, 07:45 PM
OOoo yea that always sucked.

Having to patch all those up in Photoshop one at a time.

Whooo nelly. . .

John Keates
02-03-2003, 08:10 PM
I have to admit that I don't know much about alphas. I have seen an option to turn them on. What do I do then? I will do another render. Just tell me what to do.

Wegg
02-03-2003, 08:16 PM
Turn on Alpha and render it again.

Then open up the image in Photoshop and look at the Channels tab. There should be a thing taht says Red, Green, Blue and then Alpha. Click on the eye thing so you can see the alpha channel. See if the dots are in there.

If they are. . . then AM is still wank.

John Keates
02-03-2003, 08:35 PM
Ah! now here we have a problem.

I only have Photoshop limited edition (came free with a scanner). I don't think it does channels. There should be an option for this in the "window" pull-down right?..... well it's been removed. Hang on, I have a few free image editors lying around. I will try them. If you know one that will work then give me a shout.

pabitel
02-03-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by John Keates
Ah! now here we have a problem.

I only have Photoshop limited edition (came free with a scanner). I don't think it does channels. There should be an option for this in the "window" pull-down right?..... well it's been removed. Hang on, I have a few free image editors lying around. I will try them. If you know one that will work then give me a shout.

Try gimp -- it's free.

Skevos_Mavros
02-03-2003, 09:28 PM
Hi,

Yes, there are black dot problems in AM v10a-d. See the attached image for an example, it includes a closeup to make it obvious and to overcome the way JPG artifacts mask the effect.

Also, to be fair, I twiddled with this project a lot in order to make the black dots most apparent (I used this image to submit a bug report a few weeks ago).

The same project renders just fine in v9.51e.

The good news is that Hash accepted my report (several weeks ago) and acknowledged that it is a bug and they are working on it. :)

The bad news is... it looks like the fix is for v10.5. :( I've asked them to reconsider, but it seems unlikely.

The issue seems to be worst with raytraced kliegs, and absent entirely with shadow-mapped lights. But I haven't had time to properly test it in lots of situations.

The black dots appear around the edges of patches - along the "seams", as it were. It's particularly noticable on reflective objects, but I can't swear to that.

I rerendered the image in v10d with alpha and checked in in Gimp for Windows (free - the poor man's photoshop), and saw no "holes" when I examined the layers. Seems to be a rendering thing, not a patch thing.

I can put up with the dots by using raytraced suns and shadow-mapped lights for now - it's worth it for v10's improved stability. Plus I've already made my objects for my current project in v10 and many of them won't load into v9.51e now! I'm committed! :)

At least v10.5 won't cost me anything.
:/

John Keates
02-03-2003, 09:46 PM
Well, I tried the gimp but I don't think it installed properly. It didn't recognise targas. So I used paintshop instead. The verdict...

The specks seem to be to do with the transparency map that I was using. When I turned them off, they went from the alpha. It seems odd to me that the alpha channell should include transparent objects when there is something opaque behind them but I am not an expert on this stuff. The fact is that it is hard to tell the transparency part of the alpha from the specks. Having said that, the actual animation shows quite pronounced speckling. This may be to do with the poor AA but I don't think so.

Oh, and I am using a shadow map klieg.

So basically, stay away from the kind of set-up that I have used if you want no speckles because iether it makes the renderer choke or AM just can't pruduce the required AA.

I won't bother doing many more tests because I am a little sick of beta testing for now.

John Keates
02-03-2003, 10:18 PM
Oh, also. Since this thread is about general v10 comments, I will say that it is pretty stable at the moment. There are minor issues with the new stitch (well documented by now I am sure), but moddeling is generaly stable and faster than in previous versions. The basic code seems quite solid.

I have been animating bias handles in poses and have had problems with CPs corrupting. They seem to be working on this side of things though.

The push-pin thing still doesn't work properly and I am sometimes un-able to make a constraint. Lots of this stuff is cured if you just re-start AM though (not that that is acceptable realy).

Forget about action objects with poses and constraints or complicated choriographies (this is where things get wacky in my experience). But if you just want to make a basic character and animate him/her/it, then you will be doing this faster and esier than before (once you have got used to the interface changes)

In short, v10d is not nearly the nightmare that v9 was. I would say that it has actually got out of the alpha stage of production and hopefully will be properly solid-ish in a few months time. I don't know how much the v10.5 update might screw things up though.

I am not as cynical as some about hash. That is not so say that I don't have problems with them, I do. But I also think that they realy do wan't to make good software. Maybe things are a bit political around the office over there. Maybe Martin is a bit too strong-headed or whatever. Last year I was as angry as the rest. I take this stuff seriously, have little time to waste and was hating the experience of trying to learn rigging with a program that just couldn't do it. But I am realy starting to feel confidence in now and intend to produce stuff using the funny little program.

One thing to think about is that Victor Navone and the like (not to mention Zandoria ofcourse) seem to be using 10. They appear in the bugfix lists so they are obviousley taking Hash seriously.

Go on, take the plunge. We need some more decent beta-testers, he he. :p

pabitel
02-03-2003, 10:25 PM
Do you know if the patches in question were 4-pointers with no hooks?

Nonproductive
02-03-2003, 10:27 PM
Things fixing themselves on a restart means (to me) some sloppy code management somewhere.. I'll wait for 11 :) unless of course they decide they need to rewrite the code from scratch again as they have every 2 versions since v5.

The tools are good...I'm keeping my fingers crossed ;)

koon69
02-03-2003, 10:29 PM
Please send these to steve@hash.com I get these black holes to. and Is ent them to him to. The more that he gets the more that they will realize that this is a problem. I dont think Steve and hash are here reading everything. To make sure that Hash gets this - please send this to him. Everything like I have been doing. IF we only post here the likely hood that they will hear this problem is almost nil.

So please send this to Steve. That last image you posted is a great example of the black dots in the render.

Thanks!

Skevos_Mavros
02-04-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by koon69
Please send these to steve@hash.com(snip)

So please send this to Steve. That last image you posted is a great example of the black dots in the render.


Uh, I did. Not only did I send it, they now KNOW it's a bug and are working on it - I said this in my post!

I only sent it here so others would know that the issue is being worked on.

:)

koon69
02-04-2003, 01:26 AM
Sorry bout that. No harm meant. Any idea when they will get this fixed?

Thanks

Skevos_Mavros
02-04-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by koon69
Sorry bout that. No harm meant. Any idea when they will get this fixed?

Ah... I said that in my original post too! Did you actually read it? :) :)

Looks liek version 10.5 is when the fix is coming. As for when 10.5 is coming, I have no idea. Anyone?

In the meantime - avoid raytracing (shadows and reflections) and the problem seems to go away.

koon69
02-04-2003, 01:35 PM
Dont use raytrace or shadows or reflections? Wh n da wy use the app? :-) In the real world there are shadows and reflections. This is real dumb. Like Adobe saying gaussian blur is beahving bad - dont use it. Hash should just come out and say this is broken and say that its getting fixed and maybe say a work around or two.

Thanks.

bugzilla
02-04-2003, 02:55 PM
I just got my V10 upgrade and I haven't seen too much new so far. I don't see how the renderer has changed at all. Then agin, I haven't had a chance to experiment with the new shadow types.

I do like the new/old project workspace and the fact that I can now click on a motion path in my choreography and not have the program immediately crash to desktop every time.

Hope they fix that motion blur soon!

Natess44
02-04-2003, 04:28 PM
I think the real changes will start on v10.5. So I'm waiting...

Wegg
02-04-2003, 04:50 PM
I waited for 5 years. The renderer literally hasn't changed in all that time. It shifts around and looks a little different each time. . . but its always slow. . . and always squirly. Don't count on anything changing.

Skevos_Mavros
02-05-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by koon69
Dont use raytrace or shadows or reflections? Wh n da wy use the app? :-) In the real world there are shadows and reflections. This is real dumb. Like Adobe saying gaussian blur is beahving bad - dont use it. Hash should just come out and say this is broken and say that its getting fixed and maybe say a work around or two.


Perhaps I'm not being clear? :)

They HAVE acknowledged it is a bug. They ARE working on it. There ARE work arounds - use shadow-mapped lights instead (no good for sun lights I'll admit). Or use ray traced lights but with no shadows. As for reflections, the problem is much less apparent there anyway.

Until the fix comes, that's what i do.

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