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scrimshaw1803
10-07-2006, 01:20 PM
Back when CG started becoming prevalent in the 90s, Softimage was by far the biggest player. Back in the "Jurassic Park days" and the years that followed almost all high end 3D used SI. So why is it that now the XSI forum has 7000 posts compared to 42,000 for Maya and also falls behind Max, LW, and C4D.

And there is no question the industry is overwhelmed with Max and Maya. You can hardly find anyone using XSI.

Other market leaders like Avid and Photoshop are still at the top of their fields so what happened with Softimage to cause this huge fall from grace.

It cannot be featuresets since all packages are comparable for the most part with various strengths and weaknesses. It cannot be price since they are fairly even in this respect.

Usually, when a market leader like this looses such a drastic market share it is because a competitor completely overtakes them in product quality/features/innovation or because they made a large mistake that cost them their position.

For example, I can see why SGI is in such poor shape. They kept their elitist price points when better and much cheaper solutions could be had from the Mac and PC worlds. SGI made the mistake of failing to recognize the 90s were over and they needed to change market strategy. So what was SI's mistake and when did this trend begin?

But as an aside I'm sure this dwindling market position is the main reason we now have foundation. If XSI stayed on top, I doubt you could get any version of this package for under $3000.

yourteenidol
10-07-2006, 01:38 PM
So really, what is the point of this thread ?

But since you asked...

In a nutshell, Softimage made a major F-up and that's what cost them market share plain and simple.

To keep things short the problem started when they were making the change from Soft3D to XSI. The upshot is that this was at the very time that Maya was hitting the market, Softimage made many promises to their user base but failed to deliver XSI in a timely manner.

In the meantime they were still charging people a premium for support and maintenance which did not go over well. People saw that this new product "Maya" was a reality and started to jump ship in ever increasing numbers. As a result, Softimage hurried the release of XSI (long before it was really ready) and the 1.0 release was a shocking disaster. This was the last straw for many and the user base, well, it left in huge numbers.

At the same time the market was changing and continues to change. People started to build pipelines around Maya and not Softimage and this is why Maya is where it is today - also due to very aggressive marketing at the time I might add.

Softimage has learned the hard way that once a user base goes, it's difficult or perhaps impossible to claw it back again - a bitter pill.

Still, that was then and this is now and to their credit Softimage has fixed the early mistakes they made with XSI and it's now a very, very, strong software package with a very modern core. Maya and Max are both showing their age now, while softimage has new code under hood and a well engineered architecture able to take it forward in a way that the competition will find difficult if not impossible to match.

The point here is that Softimage's current market position has nothing to do whatsoever with the quality of the software which is first rate. It has to do with some bad business decisions that were made in the mid 90's by managers who are no longer with the company. Little by little people are beginning to discover that XSI is a truly great product and application. It's unclear if they will ever return to what they once were, the market is a very different place now for all the players.

Lastly, today most people and companies are working within a mixed pipeline anyway so other than the bottom line of the balance sheet who holds "top" position in the rankings is of little importance. Why people use or don't use a given application these days is a very complex matter with many variables coming into play.

So there is a bit of acient history for you... things are moving ahead full steam once again and Softimage is by all accounts doing a good job.

luceric
10-08-2006, 12:10 AM
It's somewhat of a myth that Maya has the user base size that it has now because users 'jumped ship' from Softimage. There just wasn't that many Softimage users and high-end 3D users in general in the late 90s.

What happened was the swelling of the 3D industry on the PC. PC Users first mainly had 3DSMax, and then Maya became available at the right time. XSI wasn't quite up-and-running early enough to catch the first big initial window of growth.
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My opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of my employers.

Bullit
10-08-2006, 06:51 AM
I'm curious. What happened to Softimage

For me was essentially that XSI was the last of the 3D softs to slash their prices. At begin of 2000's i had to make some investment decisions in a firm and Softimage didnt even was voiced by any of associates (Cinema 4D, 3DsMax, Lightwave and lastly Maya when they slashed the prices went) . That was the period that everyone started to have web access at home and every home user could start to make some more serious work with PCs.

yourteenidol
10-08-2006, 01:59 PM
Sorry but what has been said isn't "quite" accurate.

The fact is that people did jump ship from Softimage 3D to Maya for exactly the reasons that I've outlined.

I was working in the industry for a very large post-production company then and I remember it happening first hand, so it's not something I imagined.

In fact, if you don't believe what I say is true, then take some time to read through the mailing list archives during that period and you will see the the huge amount of flames written to Softimage telling them.... goodbye we are jumping ship to Maya. This type of thing went on for ages, I remember it clearly.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that other factors did not influence people to move to Maya but I can tell you with great certantity that the "majority" of user bases losses came about because of the reasons I've outlined.

However, I do strongy agree on one point and that is the 3d business of the 90's is vastly different from what it is today, that's why I asked what the point of this thread was in the first place.

I feel that Softimage is a great application with a modern core that is ready to move on into the future in a way that it's competition is not, so I would rather look forward to what the future holds then look backward to the past.

In other words, that was then, this is now let's move on.

luceric
10-08-2006, 04:52 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that other factors did not influence people to move to Maya but I can tell you with great certantity that the "majority" of user bases losses came about because of the reasons I've outlined.
I think that is generally speaking not the phenomena that's being asked about at the top, that's what I am replying to, I am not questioning the validity of your observations.

Some Maya users did come from Softimage, but the facts are that there are tens of times more users that were completely new to either apps. When you have proportions like that, switchers don't really affect the outcome as much as the rest

I believe the top question is, why are there so more Maya jobs, more forum posts, etc. It's because overall there are tens of times more 3D users, it's not the same fixed user base being tossed around between alias and softimage.

Side note, during that period many Softimage users continued to use Softimage|3D, which was ported to linux in 2001 and sold for 2000$ (cheaper than Maya). XSI was at version 2.0 late that year.

Softimage has more clients today that ever in its history, and that number is still growing. That means that there is an undeniable change in who and where XSI is used. XSI isn't as visible in Film as it used to be, however the user base worldwide is overall much larger than it was in the 'Jurassic park' days, in raw numbers, and continues to grow.


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My opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of my employers.

kimaldis
10-09-2006, 04:58 PM
Softimage lost market share for exactly the same reason Maya lost market share to SI|3D a few years earlier. Softimate gained all it's seats because it was a better animation tool than the original Alias and Alias were busy finding out that a complete rewrite wasn't as easy as they thought it was going to be and falling behind. They were late with release and it was a couple of versions before it became really useable. Sound familiar? Of course, exactly the same happened with XSI when Maya was gaining ground The simple truth was that CG was rapidly moving into film in a big way and becoming too complex to be dealt with in SI3D which was, by then, rapidly becoming outdated.

Of course companies jumped ship, they had no choice but I spoke to many of them around that time. Just because they jumped didn't mean they liked it. Maya was still young and pretty rough around the edges but it dealt with stuff that SI3D couldn't and SI3D wasn't ready.

But don't make the mistake of believing Softimage screwed up. If anything they made a better job of their rewrite than Alias did theirs - remember, they had the whole of MS software engineering expertise behind them at this point - but their timing was just bad luck, nothing more. As Luc-Eric points out, the industry expanded massively and by the time XSI was up to speed there was too much time and money invested in huge pipelines that didn't exist when Maya took over from Softimage. In those days it was easy to make a change but now, it's much harder, in many instances just plain impossible. Dominance of a market, particularly where technology is concerned, rarel has anything to do with quality. It's to do with critical mass. The more units you're sold the more you'll sell in the future - look to Windows and Mac - so the trick is to be patient and eat into the monopoly.

But Softimage have made huge inroads into the marketplace and continue to do so. The odds of a new studio going to XSI when they realistically have a choice are better than evens. There's a healthy, if not sometimes desparate market for XSI freelancers - I'm currently turning away more work than I ever thought was possible - and seats counts continue to expand. Not to mention that most artists who express a preference would say they'd rather work with XSI. Consider also that in general, XSI releases tend to be much more feature rich than Maya or Max and that the features are nearly always quality, not slapons for marketing.

So don't panic, there's a lot to look forward to and the future is bright. Very bright.

ThirdEye
10-09-2006, 05:05 PM
@Kim: you also have not to forget that XSI offers limited advantages over Maya and viceversa Maya offers limited advantages over XSI. If there was a more substantial difference you'd see more switchers all over the place, but since the 2 pieces of software have similar capabilities obviously people tend to prefer the "industry standard", or in other words the one that is more widespread. They'll find more tutorials, more job opportunities, more books and more dvd's, not to mention the forums support. When the quality difference is so tight it's quite difficult to see a massive switch from an app to another one.

kimaldis
10-09-2006, 05:21 PM
Exaclty. Critical mass.

mocaw
10-09-2006, 06:13 PM
This has post been deleted by the user based on topic malfunction.

Bullit
10-09-2006, 07:34 PM
Hehe Mocaw, i enjoyed much your last paragraph :)

NRG-Alpha
10-10-2006, 01:08 AM
... Consider also that in general, XSI releases tend to be much more feature rich than Maya or Max and that the features are nearly always quality, not slapons for marketing...

From my personal standpoint, Softimage really has no choice at this stage in the game not to provide enough new feature sets. Given how it is mainly a 'character animation package', it is probably more compared to full general purpose 3D packages such as Max and Maya (and in many ways it is.. but in some ways, it isn't, and in my opinion, it need to be). Apps like Max and Maya are more well rounded for 3d feature sets (I stress, 'overall'... yes, I know Softimage made great things such as Face Robot and GATOR. Yes, I know its core is more modernized and advananced, and yes, overall, the workflow simply rocks.. but I am talking overall feature sets here).

If Soft was to release XSI versions that didn't pack alot of new features, I think their userbase would start to shrink (at least the people who rely on it for a living.. perhaps hobbiests would stick around). Again, from where I stand, XSI has a bit of 'catching-up' that needs to be had. I'm not going to bother elabourating on what needs improving.. we all have read tons of threads on this matter.. so I'll spare my keyboard some key strokes..

Overall though.. indeed, the jumps between versions are wealthy.. and given that it has been more than a year since the last 'major' release, I am really hunching on a massive one again once XSI 6 is introduced. At the rate XSI is improving, I think that their future is indeed bright. They just have to keep ALL aspects of their program up to par (if not better) compared to their competitors..

Cheers,

NRG

Xeoxi
10-10-2006, 01:54 AM
Overall though.. indeed, the jumps between versions are wealthy.. and given that it has been more than a year since the last 'major' release, I am really hunching on a massive one again once XSI 6 is introduced. At the rate XSI is improving, I think that their future is indeed bright. They just have to keep ALL aspects of their program up to par (if not better) compared to their competitors..


Indeed, but with that said , and the way things like to pass the buck back and forth between tool sets ie:XSI and Maya what one is the best for a new and hopfully fabulous career in cg? or is it to be expected that there going to play leapfrog, Nice for the industry to jump back and forth. "this is hot this isn't", (today) but what about the user, whats his move , learn and buy them all. Go to a school for a year blow 30g's then find out the employer wants the other package. there are some striking diffrences between xsi and maya in my eyes, and right now, with the big changes and accepted industry , there starting to burn....



had to rant sorry little off topic... got xsi, school switched to maya.....

In all hopes talent is in the user, what tools does it matter.......

arg..

ShadowM8
10-10-2006, 04:48 AM
People don't want to change even if it's for the better. As Kim said the demand for freelancers is extremely high, and for this reason the new studios who are keen to chose XSI find it hard to get the qualified staff. And at the end they chose to go with what they know and with what potential employees know. I went through this with a previous studio, they liked XSI and what it offered (and the price!) but it was clear that they would never fill the staff positions they need and there was definetely no time to train.

And then you see schools like VFS dropping XSI for Maya because the overwhelming majority of their grads come in with Maya experience and end up getting a job using Maya. So it only makes sense to teach it.

Xeoxi
10-10-2006, 05:27 AM
True, true Indeed.

StefanA
10-10-2006, 07:47 AM
This is a debate that doesn't really lead somewhere, and it comes up now again and people are asking Softimage what they are up to. There are a few things why things are as they are.

1.) It's illegal to force companys to buy certain softwares

2.) XSI 1.0 was released too late and was a complete crappy release. XSI 1.5 was late and introduced "I will corrupt your scene and ruin your life" feature.

3.) "Important Studios" dropped Softimage over Maya. This is a fact (I can name quite a few companys that used to have SI|3D and never cared about XSI once it was released), but slowly things are starting to looking better again.

4.) Late introduction of dynamic tools that worked (still lacking interaction between them).

5.) No other renderers where availble. Mental ray is better now than it was 4 years ago, but it was 4 years ago we would have needed a renderman pipeline.

6.) Great at modeling tools, but so is also 3dsmax, Silo, Modo, etc etc... not really rocket science today.

7.) Avid doesnt seem to care at all about Softimage. Smaller countrys doesnt have a Softimage office, and Avid just dont care... ex. Sweden might be a small country but we have tons of gaming studios that swallow hundreds of licenses that are mostly 3dsmax or Maya based.

Looking gloomy??? :) Despite all of the above I think that XSI has a better future than Maya/Max. Reason being that you have people in the company that actually cares about their product. No company in the world will give you the same respons as they do.

I'm mainly working in Maya these days, not my choice but the companys that I work for. And if there is one thing I'm sick of is "workarounds". The reason why so many Maya users have a basic knowledge of MEL is because you are f***ed if you don't. Almost everything as a workaround which needs a MEL script. In XSI... I rarely use scripts, sometimes I do it to automate things... but never as a workaround for something that should be working in the first place.

Thanks again Softimage for being late and actually making the stuff work before you release it. We all could have wished that you were a tad faster, but it works so well I dont care that much about it. I try and promote XSI as much as I can, but in our country we could use some help. I dont think we have a single XSI company left... just a few users here and there.

all the best, and make XSI 6 chock the world of CG :)

Stefan Andersson

jason-slab
10-10-2006, 08:44 AM
XSI 1.5 was late and introduced "I will corrupt your scene and ruin your life" feature.

LOL!!
actually i think max still have this feature.

as far as XSI goes, well it's def growing and seems like alot more cg features are being created using xsi as one of the creation tools!!!
and here in SA(**cough*roadshow*cough*cough**) i would have to say that the top cg companies use XSI.

good luck to Softimage, i personally think their future is particle errr i mean bright!;)

jason

mdee
10-10-2006, 10:31 AM
I'm mainly working in Maya these days, not my choice but the companys that I work for. And if there is one thing I'm sick of is "workarounds". The reason why so many Maya users have a basic knowledge of MEL is because you are f***ed if you don't. Almost everything as a workaround which needs a MEL script.

Aaa.. Stefan, don't remind me about it in the morning hehe.. ;) (lately working in maya as well)

People often ask me why I use, recommend etc.. XSI to them. I have really short answer "it doesn't get in my way when I try to do my job".

I worked at a company which used SI3D and I remeber XSI 1.0 coming out, we all treated it as a technology preview and stayed with SI3D, we have switched somewhere around 2.0..

I believe we are going to see a bit of switch towards XSI soon, maybe not on the biggest studio level (they switch to properiatry software and mixed pipelines anyway), but on mid/small studio level. I absolutely have no doubts that XSI is the best solution for small studios at this moment, period. XSI has some of the smartest and most innovative solutions avaliable in off-the shelf software - and even better, these solutions usually work .

Bring on 6.0, I expect a revolution! :)

REZI-st
10-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Bring on 6.0, I except a revolution! :)

YES revolution is coming :buttrock:

StefanA
10-10-2006, 11:28 AM
LOL!!
actually i think max still have this feature.



Well thank god the eliminated it in the 1.5.3 release :) And in max I actually think it is a offical feature... hehe.

/stefan

mocaw
10-10-2006, 01:40 PM
hmmm......

scrimshaw1803
10-10-2006, 01:40 PM
There were certainly some interesting replies to this thread.

Actually, I was not questioning the current state of XSI or the future of XSI, both of which seem promising. And I wasn't looking for any comparisons in software. Each package has strong and weak points but in the end they are all pretty much equal and a comprehensive pipeline can be built around any of them.

Like my topic title said I was "just curious" about the past situation and what happened.

Actually, I think this shift in momentum away from XSI may have be a good thing for it's users. If nothing else, it prevents SI from becoming complacent and forces them to innovate, strive for quality, and adjust pricing.

And while a bit off topic, I do have to wonder how the Maya/Max domination of the vfx/game industry will result in the end. Both being under autodesk now, I cannot imagine they will remain separate product lines. Autodesk will either have to choose one of those products to consolidate the other product into or else create a new product line based on both maya and max. In either case, they will have some time of product instability, possibly similar to XSI 1.5 status and they will alienate various user groups if they choose to base the new product on either max or maya.

If you rely heavily on max and find out max will have no new versions, you'll need to find an alternative eventually. You may stick with autodesk but this would be a perfect opportunity for SI to make a presence in these holes, especially since XSI 7.0 (?) will be a mature stable package at that time.

T4D
10-10-2006, 02:33 PM
People don't want to change even if it's for the better. As Kim said the demand for freelancers is extremely high, and for this reason the new studios who are keen to chose XSI find it hard to get the qualified staff. And at the end they chose to go with what they know and with what potential employees know. I went through this with a previous studio, they liked XSI and what it offered (and the price!) but it was clear that they would never fill the staff positions they need and there was definetely no time to train.

And then you see schools like VFS dropping XSI for Maya because the overwhelming majority of their grads come in with Maya experience and end up getting a job using Maya. So it only makes sense to teach it.

agree and the heavy issue here is Autodeak are masters of this type of marketing
I used to be a Draftsman and let me say autocad is far from being the best Cad app around

but when 90% of any cad releated industry is using AutoCad, for workers and for data exchange
( data exchanges issues is starting to effect the 3d industry now with many studuo working on the same project )
Note - Max format can only be read if you have a active Max licence, when will maya get that "feature"

the 3d industry and data exchange is a MAJOR issue now,
Avid have to move to control it,
Autodesk will try and do to the 3D industry what they done to Cad

Studio tools and Maya were Mighty big reasons to Buy alias
Maya to pull the 3D industry into line
Studio tools to keep the design industry inline and under control.

sad thing is Autodesk are not about building better tools IMO for them it's more about building better marketing feeatures,.. I just hope Avid can beat the markeing BS that autodesk will try to pull.

NRG-Alpha
10-10-2006, 05:06 PM
...
And while a bit off topic, I do have to wonder how the Maya/Max domination of the vfx/game industry will result in the end. Both being under autodesk now, I cannot imagine they will remain separate product lines. Autodesk will either have to choose one of those products to consolidate the other product into or else create a new product line based on both maya and max...

I don't think Autodesk is going to do any form of consolidations from how I see things. So what if there is product overlap? From what I understand, Autodesk gunned after Alias for its Studio software primarily (everything is a bonus). Keep in mind that 3DS Max is NOT Auto Desk's flagship product. That title goes to AutoCAD.

I think that there is such a huge user base of Maya users (both individual and corporate), that it would not be in Autodesk's best interest to do any meddling between Max and Maya. There are alot (if not most) of Maya users who hate Max, and would probably jump ship if Maya was to be consolidated into Max, or seriously compromised in any way. Case in point: When the announcement of Alias being bought out by Autodesk hit, alot of Maya users started inquiring about XSI (which is obviously promising news to Softimage).

The Maya user base is highly profitable and continues to grow. Quite frankly, I would be very surprised to see Autodesk start tampering with a merge/consolidation of Max and Maya. Their best strategy would be to leave both products on their own (despite any overlap that may exist) and let both user bases expand without conflict of any sort.

Both apps are profitable. Why piss off a massive user base on either side and break something that isn't broken in the first place?

Just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation).

Cheers,

NRG

mocaw
10-10-2006, 07:47 PM
This has post been deleted by the user based on topic malfunction.

NRG-Alpha
10-10-2006, 08:28 PM
Well we'll see how the board members and share holder feel at AutoDesk when the issue comes up in a few years and they aren't getting their 15% or more growth...companies have been known to drop bigger lines of products than Alias is for AutoDesk to improve reports and earnings.

Well, lets look at it this way. Autodesk investors may or may not get their 15% return, but if Maya is still growing and profiting, then as an autodesk investor, which would you rather? Some profit, or no profit? (speaking strictly on what Maya as an element of Autodesk brings in as pure profit (after all expenses are taken into account). So long as a product line is expanding and profiting, I would not see why Autodesk would all of a sudden drop it. I suppose time will tell if something happens to either app. But I really don't see anything like app consolidations happening between Max and Maya.

On a side note, investors constantly expecting 15% or more per year, year after year may find themselves sorely disappointed over the long term. As a company gets bigger, it gets harder to continue higher end growth trends ('as a rule'). Apparently the overall average investor tends to make is between 6-11% (not taking into account things taxes and inflation). But again, this is heavily dependant on many factors such as industries, companies, etc.. So I think it would be foolish to expect this kind of performance on a regular basis for the long haul...

-NRG

Tekano
10-10-2006, 09:42 PM
hello there fellow speculators with a vested interest :rolleyes:

are you implying here (mocaw) that this particular business strategy of dropping business's with less than 15% growth is good or bad? hmm this now raises an interesting dilema, for the hippies out there, is any of this business for the love or just the money? and, since reflecting on potential futures, will the 'money' continue if there is no love? or is it the old saying ive heard frequently, mainly at work, that 'money follows money'

and for Scrimshaws query 'what happened to Softimage' I would like to question whether amounts of posts in the software divided forums is really an indication of how successful that particular brand of software is, as a 'business'.

imho: have tried Maya 'once' in its early days and felt it incredibly clumsy and somewhat 80's inspired boxy layout. hated it and have stuck to XSI since, through thick and thin, sprinkles wedding vows etc etc , and *hopefully* she'll keep sailing far into the future XX

dg
10-10-2006, 11:14 PM
I in fact see the XSI market growing lately and with one of their major problems relating XSI market share being solved, which was the practically inexistent user base at disposal for companies to adopt it.

As for Alias aquisition let's not forget that Maya might not be the real player for that deal, I think Studio Tools and other Alias apps for CAD related are.

With that in mind I don't think Autodesk is too worried about Maya's future since Autodesk's biggest income comes from CAD related stuff, their Media division is small in comparsion with the rest. Speculating a bit and taking previous exemples of Discreet, Autodesk and Apple past aquisitions into consideration you might get a clue of what may happen on the long run with Maya and Max.

Discreet aquired 5D (Cyborg) and did nothing with it, they simply put the app out of the market for good and of course they probably have learned a bit from it to be able to leap from SGI to Linux systems on their FFI products line and to deliver Toxik. Lustre was released without a single change except interface color and a different name since they had nothing similar to it.

Apple aquired RayZ, Chalice and Nothing Real's Shake what they did?

Released Shake, used some of the code of features of Chalice and RayZ to update Shake for a while and then dropped the product to develop and release a totally brand new product. Since many huge studios had their compositing pipeline based in Shake and they don't want to disapoint something that they are dependent on, they simply decided to sell it's source code so that these companies can keep their internal development alive.

All that without mentioning the minor aquisitions done by Apple, Discreet and Autodesk which either had their products vanished from face of the earth, incorported into others or had their development simply halted.

I think there are three options for Max and Maya:

1. They merge both under a new product and kill both
2. Kill one of the two
3. Make MAX more geared towards gaming and keep Maya, or simply keep both which I don't believe would work in development terms.

Meanwhile every company that it's starting to either redesign their pipeline or starting from scratch will avoid both Maya and Max until they have their future decided. This gives Avid/Softimage huge window to play with with XSI, CAT, Face Robot, Behavior, etc.

One thing is almost for sure here, Softimage XSI wont die too easy because Avid would be really hard to be aquired


Let's wait and see.

bjoern
10-11-2006, 03:42 AM
In term of Point 2.
http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~ralf/JStalk/ (Maya 9,10 dynamics, no Joke)
I think they would kill Max... to hard to compete with this new Stuff.
And implementing it in both systems sounds silly

But at the end it will be the 1 I think :)

LemonNado
10-11-2006, 01:23 PM
At the end of the day it all boils down to the patent war. If you have the patents you win, if you are doomed to integrate third party apps and rely on that zoo of sources you are doomed. Unfortunately software patents block progress and force us, the clients, to obtain a mix of products which fullfil the specific needs. One can have meta balls this way, the other that way, the third no way... and that's how it goes with a lot of functions. Just talk to someone working with image compression...... It's a total mess.
Rainer

Bullit
10-11-2006, 02:10 PM
Most of the other users seem to use MAX, mainly due to Vray (why for broadcast I have no idea), and because they probably like it's click and go animation setups.

Here is it too. Vray is easy to setup and most broadcast productions and ads need to be made in short time. For a startup firm it's essential since no big money cames if there is no story with lesser productions.Also the market isnt big and a Max pipeline has another benefit: architecture. For small firm that is an essential part of market since it can sometimes fill the ups and downs of commerical business. IMHO that was one of great failures of XSI foundation. If it would be somewhat prepared for architecture, nothing big just some import/exporting, CTRL like shadings and other MR exposed capabilities and some easier modelling in some small situations Softimage could have got a part of market.

For a small firm: flexibility, all around features and easy setup is a must since there isnt a sizeable market for specialisation.

elfdestruct
10-11-2006, 04:40 PM
I believe someone is trying to get their thread showcased in the newsletter. :deal:

...if your major concern is market share, your calling may ultimately be far from digital media.

mocaw
10-11-2006, 09:05 PM
This has post been deleted by the user based on topic malfunction.

Xeoxi
10-11-2006, 11:23 PM
so much for


I'm curious. What happened to Softimage


left field, what angle?

LOL

Kabab
10-12-2006, 12:13 PM
Since the profitabilty thing has been bought up do you guys really think XSI is making a profit at all??? I personally think they are not or cutting even... What makes these companies money is large accounts paying subscription / maintenance every year..

How many XSI studio are there with 100+ seats?

XSI worst enemy i think is not features etc its being able to stay profitable enough long enough to shift the userbase, and sadly i don't think thats going to be easy.

The other issue they have are verticles, xsi is built for games / movies... Max and Maya on the other hand dominate Viz/Sim/Design market space and do not kid yourself this is a huge marketspace, just think of all the architectual, automotive, defense and medical sim work done..

Much of the success in these verticals is due to good data intergration with CAD solutions incidently many of these CAD solutions are owned by Autodesk.

FYI Media & Entertanment is Autodesk's 3rd biggest earner.

scrimshaw1803
10-12-2006, 01:24 PM
so much for


I'm curious. What happened to Softimage

left field, what angle?

LOL

Indeed!

But the discussions have been interesting.

T4D
10-12-2006, 02:04 PM
Since the profitabilty thing has been bought up do you guys really think XSI is making a profit at all??? I personally think they are not or cutting even... What makes these companies money is large accounts paying subscription / maintenance every year..

How many XSI studio are there with 100+ seats?.

well i think it alittle over the top to start Guessing how much XSI is making unless your a Avid exec ( pretty sure none would post that info here for us all ?? ) and avid not that small to start freaking out at XSI's development cost in anyway.

I know barnyard was done with XSI must have been afew seats there and i know 2 pretty large studios in Oz use XSI, plus ILM, Dreamworks, etc etc and well do some research I'm sure you can do some numbers if this interests you ? :rolleyes:

Maya has a Large root hold over current projects studio and workflow
but over time that will change most projects have R&D time and XSI will get a chance to show off, it's advanages are easy to see.
So I'm happy to wait for the rest of the world to catch up While i learn this thing. :bounce:

Max needs a rewrite,
Maya is starting to get overload and disjointed ( only what i read,. I'm not a maya user )

Autodesk will do something,. if they slip up in anyway
XSI is there to pick any users looking for options. and XSI is only growing leaner and meaner. the fact is they purchased Cat, the system right now is the best 3D app I have used & I'm really looking forward to 6. :buttrock:

right now if you not buying maya what are you buying ?,.. most would say XSI.

ThirdEye
10-12-2006, 02:13 PM
plus ILM

There's no XSI at ILM anymore afaik, but i may be wrong of course.

jason-slab
10-12-2006, 02:26 PM
as far as i know ILM does have a few users, not sure to what level they use it, maybe just some modeling or something... like most big studios, even medium size ones, they use all sorts of software:)

j

kimaldis
10-12-2006, 07:24 PM
Since the profitabilty thing has been bought up do you guys really think XSI is making a profit at all??? I personally think they are not or cutting even... What makes these companies money is large accounts paying subscription / maintenance every year..


Unless you can back that up with sales and running costs I suggest you have absolutely no basis for a comment like that. You need to come back when you've some hard facts

ThirdEye
10-12-2006, 07:34 PM
as far as i know ILM does have a few users, not sure to what level they use it, maybe just some modeling or something... like most big studios, even medium size ones, they use all sorts of software:)

j

That's absolutely true. When it comes to ILM tho i hear it's basically a mix of Maya and proprietary software at the moment. Maybe the matte painting dept is different, i know a person there who uses C4D and another one using Max, so prolly there are some XSI users as well among them. Ah well, who gives a damn anyway ;)

Kabab
10-13-2006, 12:52 AM
Unless you can back that up with sales and running costs I suggest you have absolutely no basis for a comment like that. You need to come back when you've some hard facts
Yeah well hence i was asking a question and stating a personal opinion.. Is Avid a public company? if so there should be some information which could be found...

*edit*

Ok there is a stack of information here;

http://www.avid.com/pressroom/index.asp

In general looks like avid makes a bucketload of money but it looks like all that revenue is comming from their film/editing systems XSI hardly makes a mention anywhere.

T4D
10-13-2006, 02:03 AM
In general looks like avid makes a bucketload of money but it looks like all that revenue is comming from their film/editing systems XSI hardly makes a mention anywhere.

again you seem to be pushing the XSI isn't making money point ??? I'm lost as to why ??

Hondini, Lightwave, zbrush, C4D, modo, Vue the list goes on ,.. these are all much MUCH smaller companies compaired to just Softimage alone, without adding AVID to that.

at the moment Autodesk and Avid are the 2 big boys if you think XSI users should worry what should the C4D, Hondini, Zbrush, modo, Lightwave users be doing ?

I hear alot more Max and Maya users worry about the future and what Autodesk will do
then any issues from XSI users about ,.. well anything. :)

you can easily see studio's using XSI is on the XSIbase job section ?

you saw with your own eyes Avid is a major player in the film industry yet you seem to not connect that XSI is a 3D program used in films ? ( did you know when you buy a AVID you get version of XSI ? )

the only facts you found clearly discredit the point your trying to make, SO please stop making it ?

Kabab
10-13-2006, 04:24 AM
Ok lets step back abit here..

I honestly think Maya/XSI/Max etc is to cheap for the market size vs development/sales/support/marketing cost..

Lets look at the software industry as a hole have a look at photoshop for instance that costs what about 1/3 of Maya but the userbase base is well and truely more then 3 times the size..

Look at the cost of products like solidworks much larger market size and about 2-3 times the cost...

You pay the same amount for XSI as you would MS office to me this just does not make sense.

The DCC marketplace doesn't follow the trend of other software, go have a look at other complex bits of software and look at how much they sell for, this marketplace is out of sync.

I think when Alias dropped the price of maya to 2k it created an unrealistic price point in the DCC marketspace.. Sure it worked for Alias they snapped up a ton of seats they got a stagering market share... but where did it leave everyone else?

You live in Australia i see, you can see the result of what 2K Maya did by just looking at how much Maya the universities have got.

Did $500 xsi achieve this?

Thats why i made my orginal statement.

I would love to see XSI succeed competetion always makes things better for the end user but unfortunatly i'm not seeing this.

T4D
10-13-2006, 04:40 AM
I purchased XSI 4.0 Fnd then updated to XSI ess 4.1 then XSI Ess 5.1 cost abit over here too. I'm sure many have done the same. I'm thinking of moving to XSI ADV when 6 comes out.:bounce:

Seems your thinking XSI fnd ( $500 ) is XSI's only product ?

Kabab
10-13-2006, 04:44 AM
I purchased XSI 4.0 Fnd then updated to XSI ess 4.1 then XSI Ess 5.1 cost abit over here too. I'm sure many have done the same. I'm thinking of moving to XSI ADV when 6 comes out.:bounce:

Seems your thinking XSI fnd ( $500 ) is XSI's only product ?
I know there are other versions but the impression i get from reading forums talking to ppl etc is the $500 is the one that sells..

How many studio's in Australia apart from Rising Sun have more then 10 seats of Ess ?

T4D
10-13-2006, 04:57 AM
I know there are other versions but the impression i get from reading forums talking to ppl etc is the $500 is the one that sells..

How many studio's in Australia apart from Rising Sun have more then 10 seats of Ess ?

Dude I don't work for Avid SO I have NO Idea ??

But Rising Sun isn't the only studio in OZ that uses XSI I know that for sure, 2 or 3 others come to mind.
But others here would have a much better Idea then Me on that subject
I only live in a Little town called Brisbane :)

Kabab
10-13-2006, 05:23 AM
Dude I don't work for Avid SO I have NO Idea ??

But Rising Sun isn't the only studio in OZ that uses XSI I know that for sure, 2 or 3 others come to mind.
But others here would have a much better Idea then Me on that subject
I only live in a Little town called Brisbane :)
Hey man brisbanse rocks! Queens St mall on a nice sunny weekend :D

mocaw
10-13-2006, 05:54 AM
I think when Alias dropped the price of maya to 2k it created an unrealistic price point in the DCC marketspace.. Sure it worked for Alias they snapped up a ton of seats they got a stagering market share... but where did it leave everyone else?

You live in Australia i see, you can see the result of what 2K Maya did by just looking at how much Maya the universities have got.

Did $500 xsi achieve this?

Thats why i made my orginal statement.

...

From what I've read on this forum by the people who have been around the 3D block is that many of us, including myself, really simplify the fall of soft and the rise of alias. Make that the whole 3D market over the last 20 years...but I digress...

We often leave out things like alias activly giving school incentives, beyond price, to teach alias products, such as free training etc. This was a while ago mind you- but that helped to build up a user base- long before "real" 3D learning programs had been established.

As far as I can remember, the rise of alias can be seen as far back as 1996/97. The fall of soft seemed to start a bit afterword...but my memory and knowlege are limited...

Also- softimage has stated many times that they reduced the price of FND down to $500 to attract an employable userbase. They came to this conclusion after asking many studios what they needed them to do to help. That could be marketing hype- but it "seems" to be slowly working.

I don't know how studios feel about having to hire mostly generalists though!

ThE_JacO
10-13-2006, 06:03 AM
I know there are other versions but the impression i get from reading forums talking to ppl etc is the $500 is the one that sells..

How many studio's in Australia apart from Rising Sun have more then 10 seats of Ess ?

Animal Logic, Pandemic, Another game dev company I can't remember the name of, MRPPP (or whatever the letters are), and probably a few more places I don't know of.

Regardless, you still seem to think that large studios are what makes these companies their main money, but you are waaaaay off the truth.

mid and large studios, in terms of direct cash flow, are often not making the company any money, and sometimes turn out to be nearly an expense, but we're kept happy and licensed because of two reasons:
1) marketing, because it's proven that, no matter in what way they lie to themselves, the large majority of the customer base IS impressed by the flashy movie FX and whether the big boys use that software or not
2) RnD and feedback, because no small studio will ever eviscerate and bitch about XSI as hard and throughly as large RnD and TD teams do, and that progress and stability trickles down to average joe the following release.

As for hard cash, it comes from other sources. "us" (the movie shops) are kept around because of collateral value, not for the measly cash flow we generate against massive support and PR expenses.

Sbowling
10-13-2006, 06:23 AM
Ok lets step back abit here..
You pay the same amount for XSI as you would MS office to me this just does not make sense.


You paid $7000 for office? :eek:

T4D
10-13-2006, 06:43 AM
mid and large studios, in terms of direct cash flow, are often not making the company any money, and sometimes turn out to be nearly an expense, but we're kept happy and licensed because of two reasons:
1) marketing, because it's proven that, no matter in what way they lie to themselves, the large majority of the customer base IS impressed by the flashy movie FX and whether the big boys use that software or not
2) RnD and feedback, because no small studio will ever eviscerate and bitch about XSI as hard and throughly as large RnD and TD teams do, and that progress and stability trickles down to average joe the following release.

As for hard cash, it comes from other sources. "us" (the movie shops) are kept around because of collateral value, not for the measly cash flow we generate against massive support and PR expenses.

That is Business, I doubt Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Hallen or any musician that can get they head in the pop charts has handed money over for a guitar for many years..

How many sales has Eric Clapton helped make for Fender Guitars ???

How many XSI licences were sold off half life 2 marketing ??
how many Licences did Value pay for ?

that is the world we live in.

and Brisbane is nice and it's just far enough away from ThE_JacO to make me feel important XSI wise.:D

Kabab
10-13-2006, 06:47 AM
Animal Logic, Pandemic, Another game dev company I can't remember the name of, MRPPP (or whatever the letters are), and probably a few more places I don't know of.

Regardless, you still seem to think that large studios are what makes these companies their main money, but you are waaaaay off the truth.

mid and large studios, in terms of direct cash flow, are often not making the company any money, and sometimes turn out to be nearly an expense, but we're kept happy and licensed because of two reasons:
1) marketing, because it's proven that, no matter in what way they lie to themselves, the large majority of the customer base IS impressed by the flashy movie FX and whether the big boys use that software or not
2) RnD and feedback, because no small studio will ever eviscerate and bitch about XSI as hard and throughly as large RnD and TD teams do, and that progress and stability trickles down to average joe the following release.

As for hard cash, it comes from other sources. "us" (the movie shops) are kept around because of collateral value, not for the measly cash flow we generate against massive support and PR expenses.
From what i gather Animal is basically a Maya house again...

Okay if large studio's don't make any profit in what other sector can XSI make a profit?

The small to mid users still require support and % wise not as many pay for subscriptions so i can't see that sector being a big cash cow..

Arch Viz / Games is 3dsmax land and Design Viz is Alias territory and much of this success is due to the intergration with existing Autodesk or Alias CAD solutions so this would be near impossible for XSI to take a large market sector.

I think this comes back down to DCC software is to cheap regardless of which vendor is supplying it.

ThE_JacO
10-13-2006, 09:05 AM
From what i gather Animal is basically a Maya house again...
from what I gather you asked how many customers had N licenses in australia.
as for what they use, they use max, maya and xsi in different departments and with different intentions.
if after happy feet is out of the door they will completely dump XSI, that I don't know.

Okay if large studio's don't make any profit in what other sector can XSI make a profit?
the game companies like konami, namco, sega etc. who buy a thousand, and not 50, licenses
the hundreds of game company startups that buy 20 licenses and alienbrain and some toys here and there on long leases.
the thousands of small shops that do commercials.
the companies that do previz and buy a number of licenses and toys, provide co-marketing, and ask for very minimal support.
the localized TV networks that need their flying logos...
and a lot of other people you hardly notice on cgtalk.
there's maybe 50 film studios in the world that have a headcount over 50 people, probably less, but there's hundreds and hundreds of commercials oriented shops, game companies, amateurs, local tv stations etc.

The small to mid users still require support and % wise not as many pay for subscriptions so i can't see that sector being a big cash cow..
I've worked for avid, I've worked for several small shops, and I've worked in several film shops. most of the times, in each of these places, I was responsible to a degree or another for the communication channels with Softimage.
In a film shop you often ask for radical changes, document the issues so throughly that they are hard to be denied, and u normally threaten of platform jumping if things stray a bit (because we already have pipelines built on top of the 3 major SW players, and sweeping one off the floor entirely doesn't take us long).
I don't remember having ever seen customers other then film putting this kind of pressure and hard dealing against Soft, not even the most spectacularly good ones like lamaison or the mill.

Arch Viz / Games is 3dsmax land and Design Viz is Alias territory and much of this success is due to the intergration with existing Autodesk or Alias CAD solutions so this would be near impossible for XSI to take a large market sector.
games is not max in the whole world, not by far.

I think this comes back down to DCC software is to cheap regardless of which vendor is supplying it.
that is possible, but there's a difference between cheap and going out of the market.
I'm sure you are aware tho that soft isn't just providing xsi, but also provides the backend to avid's 3D toys, initially build the whole ds platform, has a marketing value for avid regardless of hard cash flow... and a number of other things.
If you aren't then you aren't doing yourself a favour, as you seem to be narrowing your perspective too much, and kinda blackboxing snippets of information that are just hints of a much bigger and marketing submerged picture.

mocaw
10-13-2006, 05:43 PM
This is not pure speculation, but I don't have marketing figures to back it up. But yes, the FND model of XSI is a powerful word of mouth marketing tool if nothing else. Already I've seen some fairly good sized broadcast studios check out XSI mainly due to the reviews of FND users preaching of its virtues on this and other discussion boards, at 3D meetings etc.. Noobs like me know just enough to be dangerous and get more expierenced 3D users interested initially (note not the final purchase)- and it's marketing dollars well spent by Avid.

So for $500 the get a ton of marketing that goes beyond CGtalk splash screens, a upwardly mobile userbase (aka they will get around to buying ess and some adv. licenses), and a new form of revenue along side a larger work pool for studios to draw from. Not a bad buisness model if they hold on! I know that word of mouth is powerful marketing that is hard to buy as I've DIRECTLY pursuaded people to leave 3D packages before for others. No it wasn't always at gun point :)

As odd as it sounds part of the reason I like XSI right now is that, at least compared to some other packages, it seems NOT to be listening to the masses when it comes to much of the R&D (I could be wrong, and I'm sure ThE_JacO will just point out that I'm a radiosity kitchen monkey), but instead just enlisting them, and giving it to them cheap with the features that shut me up. The ones I "need" trickle down to me- and it's the only form of "reganomics" that I've seen work so far. I left another companies software who was trying to have it everywhich way- and all that made was for a bland product, that was a jack of all trades but only at 40%.

I see a good, symbiotic relationship between all the levels of users (not a touch feely one though- and with Avid at the top of the food chain) that might help the company cycle through as each part builds on the other in more ways than one- and as more experienced users have illustrated it is complex.

And yes- in my own lame way I make money with XSI even at the FND level- mainly in print and in some animation. Owning Max with Vray wouldn't make my life much easier, and so right now FND is working VERY well for me and in turn Avid.

chikega
10-13-2006, 07:42 PM
Muscle spasm by Cgtalk caused this double post.

chikega
10-13-2006, 07:44 PM
Not to point out the obvious, but no one seemed to mention it. But it seems a propos. Lightwave is now going through what Softimage3|D/XSI went through - a period of time where the userbase declined during a core rewrite. I think I see a few LW stragglers over here in this forum ;).

Reminds me of a line from the movie "Spinal Tap" when the band manager says "No, I don't believe the audience is getting smaller. Theyr'e just getting more selective. " LOL :)

mocaw
10-13-2006, 07:52 PM
Not to point out the obvious, but no one seemed to mention it. But it seems a propos. Lightwave is now going through what Softimage3|D/XSI went through - a period of time where the userbase declined during a core rewrite. I think I see a few LW stragglers over here in this forum ;).

Reminds me of a line from the movie "Spinal Tap" when the band manager says "No, I don't believe the audience is getting smaller. Theyr'e just getting more selective. " LOL :)

Well unfortunatly your comparision is mostly correct, except for the fact that NewTek isn't anywhere near the "top" of the heap right now, and as far as I know Softimage 3D was. This is where a private company might be able to take the blow better- but I'm sure it's a lot more complex than that.

ThirdEye
10-13-2006, 08:09 PM
it seems a propos. Lightwave is now going through what Softimage3|D/XSI went through

biggest difference is Newtek ain't MS nor Avid

terencemace
10-13-2006, 10:00 PM
1. I do find it a bit disappointing that Softimage has spent so much energy promoting FaceRobot. I know it's cool, but a very small part of the market at this point. I was at NAB this year and Softimage had a tiny little kiosk, next to Avid. And it was all about FaceRobot.

2. They must stay competitive in the general market. It seems they are doing this, and I know we're all excited about what version comes next...whenever that is. But, I think the next release really needs to capitalize on XSI's strengths and attractive workflow. And improve particles. And more presets perhaps.

3. If you're an animation house, it's all about the freelance workbase. Here in NYC, it's much easier to find Maya people. So many companies are still using Maya. It's nice to see more houses using both.

just my 2 cents

cheers

T

Sbowling
10-13-2006, 11:26 PM
2. They must stay competitive in the general market. It seems they are doing this, and I know we're all excited about what version comes next...whenever that is.
T

One of the strange things about using XSI is that while I'm excited about the next release, I'm not looking for any specific features or hoping it will solve all of my problems. XSI works very well as is is now, sure there are things that can be improved on, but overall it's stable, it's fast and the features work as advertised. I don't NEED the next version to do what I want or need to.

Bringing up the lightwave comparison, EVERY upgrade that came out from newtek promised to fix all the problems and bugs that were a major annoyance to all of their users and it usually failed to live up to expectations. While Softimage was able to come back from near dissaster (as I hear it) I have my doubts that newtek can do the same. They seem more concerned to about what features they have, but not about how well their features work. Their sucky dynamics and Character animation are prime examples.

Sbowling
10-13-2006, 11:31 PM
How many XSI licences were sold off half life 2 marketing ??

Funny, I just realized that marketing didn't have a single thing to do with my purchase of XSI. Using the product is what sold me. I had been looking for a lightwave replacement and had not even given Softimage a thought until a guy I worked with mentioned them one night. I had some spare time so I downloaded the demo went through some of the tutorials and immediately fell in love with the program. :love:

T4D
10-14-2006, 12:33 AM
Funny, I just realized that marketing didn't have a single thing to do with my purchase of XSI. Using the product is what sold me. I had been looking for a lightwave replacement and had not even given Softimage a thought until a guy I worked with mentioned them one night. I had some spare time so I downloaded the demo went through some of the tutorials and immediately fell in love with the program. :love:

same story for me ( maybe a different guy but :D )

But we already know 3D we know what we are looking for,.
imagen all those Halflife freaks who wish they knew 3D ..

I'm sure you have had those times when you tell people what you do
someone always freaks out with "i want to do that",
" I've done a car "
" how do you get a job doing that " .. and the list goes on ... :hmm:

marketing works on those guys really well :D

chikega
10-14-2006, 02:14 AM
My main point on the previous post is that one company's loss (ie. Newtek) is usually another company's gain (ie. Avid) - as it was with MS/Avid and Alias.

I've been doing 3d since 1991. Started with some apps on the Mac platform - Macromodel, Strata3d, FormZ, Electric Image. Actually got a job working with Softimage3|D in 1995. Some director at the Medical College decided that he wanted the same software/hardware that was used on Jurassic Park. So state funds were used to appropriate an SGI Indigo 2 Extreme and Softimage 3|D - I remember seeing the invoice - it was about 40k.

For many of us old timers, XSI and Maya were well beyond a freelancers reach - and could only be experienced at larger studios or institutions. It's not until the last few years that we've seen the price wars that have allowed the individual and smaller studios to even entertain the idea of incorporating them.

For myself, I've always wanted to use XSI, but it was well beyond my reach until "recently". I used more modestly priced software like Lightwave and C4d. But my how things have changed. XSI Essentials (with $50 BHairy plugin) is cheaper than C4d XL Bundle.:eek:

Kabab
10-14-2006, 02:48 AM
from what I gather you asked how many customers had N licenses in australia.
as for what they use, they use max, maya and xsi in different departments and with different intentions.
if after happy feet is out of the door they will completely dump XSI, that I don't know.
Was just a general comment...


the game companies like konami, namco, sega etc. who buy a thousand, and not 50, licenses
the hundreds of game company startups that buy 20 licenses and alienbrain and some toys here and there on long leases.
the thousands of small shops that do commercials.
the companies that do previz and buy a number of licenses and toys, provide co-marketing, and ask for very minimal support.
the localized TV networks that need their flying logos...
and a lot of other people you hardly notice on cgtalk.
there's maybe 50 film studios in the world that have a headcount over 50 people, probably less, but there's hundreds and hundreds of commercials oriented shops, game companies, amateurs, local tv stations etc.
From my perspective living in Australia most of these seem to be Max / Maya accounts i do know that XSI is big in Japan but i don't know how that is reflected in the rest of the world.


I've worked for avid, I've worked for several small shops, and I've worked in several film shops. most of the times, in each of these places, I was responsible to a degree or another for the communication channels with Softimage.
In a film shop you often ask for radical changes, document the issues so throughly that they are hard to be denied, and u normally threaten of platform jumping if things stray a bit (because we already have pipelines built on top of the 3 major SW players, and sweeping one off the floor entirely doesn't take us long).
I don't remember having ever seen customers other then film putting this kind of pressure and hard dealing against Soft, not even the most spectacularly good ones like lamaison or the mill.
Thats an interesting perspective to share thanks :)



games is not max in the whole world, not by far.
But you could say between max and Maya Autodesk now have a massive market share?

that is possible, but there's a difference between cheap and going out of the market.
I'm sure you are aware tho that soft isn't just providing xsi, but also provides the backend to avid's 3D toys, initially build the whole ds platform, has a marketing value for avid regardless of hard cash flow... and a number of other things.
If you aren't then you aren't doing yourself a favour, as you seem to be narrowing your perspective too much, and kinda blackboxing snippets of information that are just hints of a much bigger and marketing submerged picture.
Yes i realise Avid do a hole stack of other things i noted that before... To me it just seemed strange that such a powerfull product was being sold so cheap...

shadowedge
10-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Funny, I just realized that marketing didn't have a single thing to do with my purchase of XSI. Using the product is what sold me. I had been looking for a lightwave replacement and had not even given Softimage a thought until a guy I worked with mentioned them one night. I had some spare time so I downloaded the demo went through some of the tutorials and immediately fell in love with the program. :love:

Diito!

I've been using XSI since 1.5, back then I was a student, our school made that shift from Soft 3D because the admin found it better as an app. But as far as I recall, they gave us a an analysis of the market which was also one of the reasons why the switched to XSI.

I'm not sure how accurate this account is, but if I remember correctly, our school administrator back then (2001) was closely talking to Avid Singapore. They told us that they analized that Maya's sales were already on a steady slope despite the new versions comming out. And they mentioned that Softimage, although slowly was on a gradual climb.

I don't know if this is true today, nor do I know what the figures are. It would probabbly be intresting though if a market anyalst or something could share whats the currently going on.

either way, I highly doubt that XSI's place in the market will make me feel any different about it. I believe its still the best working app for me :)

mr Bob
10-16-2006, 11:49 AM
Animal Logic only used softimage xsi for happy feet, and that was because it got a sweet deal. other than that its all maya at animal , xsi does seem to of had a run getting used on animated features , but over all it has made a zero impact in the film market and I doubt it ever will, houdini has made better inroads and is used by most major studios, it suits large pipelines and is a dream to work with.

B

T4D
10-16-2006, 01:04 PM
Animal Logic only used softimage xsi for happy feet, and that was because it got a sweet deal. other than that its all maya at animal , xsi does seem to of had a run getting used on animated features , but over all it has made a zero impact in the film market and I doubt it ever will, houdini has made better inroads and is used by most major studios, it suits large pipelines and is a dream to work with.

B

I'm guessing you work at Animal logic,?
But that's all abit too 100 % for the real world
Your basicly saying NO studio at all have changed over to XSI world wide.

Pandemic here in Brisbane when I was talking with them afew months ago at a Conference said They were switching as per Head office request, ( they used maya for Kill All Humans )

Now that may have change I havn't talked to any of the artist since then, and it was a future plan, but at the time I check the main Pandemic page and they are a XSI studio worldwide so it made scents,

and a smaller max studio ( 2- 3 artist ) about 15 min drive away, has switch to XSI as well

Now that's only in my little part of the world. and I know a very small % of what goes on locally.

elfdestruct
10-16-2006, 02:36 PM
Okay, I've about 2 pages in my mailbox related to this thread. Considering you've heard from nobody official as of yet - shit not where you eat.

This amorphous discussion barely has anything to do with XSI. This discussion hardly had to be directed at XSI. Get cracking in the other threads. Pretty please - the replies are about to outtake the tutorials thread. Now, to see that sort of activity in my mailbox. :deal:

Xeoxi
10-16-2006, 03:06 PM
Might I sujest trying the unsubscribe from this thread, or even checking the mail more :)

I'm injoying this thread, its a real insite to where and why and what is happening with the people that count in relation to these software pakages, man its the word from the people by the poeple.......


:)

ThE_JacO
10-16-2006, 04:14 PM
Animal Logic only used softimage xsi for happy feet, and that was because it got a sweet deal. other than that its all maya at animal , xsi does seem to of had a run getting used on animated features , but over all it has made a zero impact in the film market and I doubt it ever will, houdini has made better inroads and is used by most major studios, it suits large pipelines and is a dream to work with.

B

I would say that's fairly debatable.
XSI keeps making it in and out of film shops every day, some stick to it for the longer term, some give it a try and ditch it.
Saying Houdini is more succesful though is misleading to say the least.
Houdini is hugely succesful in the film industry, but it is so because it's nearly exclusively used in film shops.
Not that many places outside of film, or facilities with some dualism in film and HE commercials, even consider it.

It would be like saying that ZBrush is more succesful then any other modeling platform in film. It only holds true when decontextualized. Zbrush is a speciality application with nearly no competition, and so, due to its unique approach to representing the graph, is houdini. That still doesn't really pitch it again maya, XSI or max in a number of ways.

ThE_JacO
10-16-2006, 04:20 PM
Okay, I've about 2 pages in my mailbox related to this thread. Considering you've heard from nobody official as of yet - shit not where you eat.
somebody official being? the head of RnD at Soft or their marketing dept?
insofar there's been a fairly civilized discussion going that saw several people participating, people from Soft, from big film firms, and both solo and small shop freelancers.
While a lot of what has been said is highly subjective, hence the whole thread should be taken with a pinch of salt, the thread itself hasn't been spewing compost on any brands, nor has fallen into personal jabs or anything.

This amorphous discussion barely has anything to do with XSI. This discussion hardly had to be directed at XSI. Get cracking in the other threads. Pretty please - the replies are about to outtake the tutorials thread. Now, to see that sort of activity in my mailbox. :deal:
didn't notice you made it to the forum leaders team... :p
the thread might be a bit borderline, and surely spotlights XSI in a more negative way then it deserves in terms of market penetration and other subjects, but the XSI forum has proven time and again a place where these things -can- be discussed maturely, and I quite like that. It's also definitely and still on topic, which is a rarity with industry threads in most other forums.

Let people talk. As long as it's done politely it's what this site happens to be all about, and the moderate tones it's been carried on with are a testament to the social qualities of the people participating, and it doesn't hurt Soft either if people put their views out.
To marketing and sales the perception of reality (which is what many are stating here), is often more valuable then the cold hard facts might ever be.

buttachunk
10-16-2006, 08:46 PM
houdini has made better inroads and is used by most major studios, it suits large pipelines and is a dream to work with


...for TDs, but not neccessarily for artists :thumbsup:

As an outside observer, I'd say that XSI has made much more than "zero" impact in the film market. Many of my favorite VFX shots and scenes were done in XSI.

elfdestruct
10-16-2006, 10:43 PM
Xeoxi: Done, and as for checking my mail, I have been - around these droppings. I'm all about productivity.

JacO: I could care less about being polite on a Monday morning, and as to forum status - I'm not much into role-playing. Hah, I just happen to be aggressively sensible. :D

Sorry, just seems more stale food for thought. This simply being more conjecture, without official statements about earnings or whatever. You can talk all you want, but do try not to critique what response you get.

mr Bob
10-16-2006, 11:35 PM
Jaco I am only talking about film , not sure what part of my statement was talking about anything else



...for TDs, but not neccessarily for artists :thumbsup:

As an outside observer, I'd say that XSI has made much more than "zero" impact in the film market. Many of my favorite VFX shots and scenes were done in XSI.

Is that from personnel experience or just reading about using Houdini , interested in your favourite shots / films completed using xsi

B

scrimshaw1803
10-16-2006, 11:59 PM
It would be like saying that ZBrush is more succesful then any other modeling platform in film. It only holds true when decontextualized. Zbrush is a speciality application with nearly no competition, and so, due to its unique approach to representing the graph, is houdini. That still doesn't really pitch it again maya, XSI or max in a number of ways.
I'm wondering if down the road, xsi may be somewhat targeted as a speciality app too. Not along the focused approach of zbrush but more along the lines of how max is a speciality app for architecural visualization. Nobody would consider max an arch-viz tool as it is definately an all around package but it is so good for arch-viz work that it's almost a given that it is the tool you will use if that is your speciality.

Given the newfound development of face-robot and xsi now being called character production software by Soft themselves and their recent acquisition of CAT, perhaps they are targeting a specific segment? 5 years hence if anyone wants to do character work, XSI will be the first choice just as max is first choice for arch-viz now?

And not to stir up long bemoaned can of worms but I think it would greatly benefit xsi to move the hair module to a lower package with their next release, perhaps even FND? While this may not be cost effective, depending on their licensing arrangement with Joe Alter, I think this would really push xsi into more hands.

For one this is a very flashy, (albeit useful) feature. For new users or users doing a comparison between maya, xsi, etc. I think having this type of high profile feature at such an incredibly priced package would push smaller shops and individual users over the edge into giving Soft their money. Even if they don;t use or need this feature, the "wow, what a great deal" factor cannot be underestimated, especially if XSI is targeting itself as character software.

They still have a enough features in Advanced (and I'm sure V6 will add to that list) to justify the higher price point of that package.

Plus lower priced higher volume sales usually seem to be profitable (not that I;m a finance person :eek: ). The point is that additional would invariably generate a lot of sales and probably a much higher upgrade rate. This gets a larger user base and more productions using xsi in their pipeline.

That said I think even at the Essentials level, this feature would greatly benefit XSI. Ess is priced at a comparable range to Maya complete and to max, neither of which have this feature at this price.

ThE_JacO
10-17-2006, 12:40 AM
Jaco I am only talking about film , not sure what part of my statement was talking about anything else
So was I mate :)

what I was saying is that it's normal that HDN is present in most large film studios (still missing in action from 90% of the studios below 100 people tho), because film is -all- it has, and it's also more akin to a speciality app then it is to the allrounders like Maya/xsi/max.

so putting it into a market thread is kinda pointless. Of course it maid more inroads into film then some other packages with waaaay larger usebases (max, C4D and LW squarely, I seriously doubt it out-seats XSI in film, but it probably out-shops it), it's their target market and the only userbase most of their release work is geared toward, and it's often the only solution to certain problems when you're short on RnD time; this still doesn't bring it into the comparison, otherwise you'd have to bring in other speciality SW and completely void the discussion.

RmachucaA
10-17-2006, 01:33 AM
For what its worth, I've seen a LOT of people convert from other aps to xsi in the last 3 years, and will never look back.

Maybe XSI hasnt had as much exposure as other aps, but its there and its not going anywhere.

T4D
10-17-2006, 02:22 AM
Okay, I've about 2 pages in my mailbox related to this thread. Considering you've heard from nobody official as of yet - shit not where you eat.

This amorphous discussion barely has anything to do with XSI. This discussion hardly had to be directed at XSI. Get cracking in the other threads. Pretty please - the replies are about to outtake the tutorials thread. Now, to see that sort of activity in my mailbox. :deal:

that souds so much like a old lady ring up the TV station yelling that there too many booby or sweat words or whatever,.. DUDE just change the channel !!!



mr Bob -

you sound like Feature film IS the 3D industry what a lot of BS !!! :p
it's like Saying Briten Spears is the Musician of the Century
becasue she sold afew albums,
What about all those other types of music sales, cds, dvd's in all the other style of music WORLDWIDE !

I see better CG on most TV ads then i do in a third rate movie and sometimes even a first rate one.


Feature film would only be 5% tops of the whole 3d industry.
How many feature film studios in the world ?
how many working 3D artist in the world ?

you outside saying you give a outsider POV but your looking down the periscope of submarine call " the 3D industry "
and you see the captain. the captain may look cool But what about the rest of the Crew and all the rest of the ship ?

your POV seem VERY limited view I feel I'm sure other do too.

buttachunk
10-17-2006, 02:22 AM
Is that from personnel experience

...just observations of the flow and usage of both packages, and reading reactions from other artists who use both much more than I have.

In reviewing material I know of as being done in both apps-- the majority of the film-oriented material I see XSI used for is CA, environment replacement, etc.. (artist-animated), and the majority of Houdini shots I know of are procedural models or hard-body objects (missiles and such), or tricky particle sims (generally more oriented towards scripting/TDs ).

I definately don't know of every shot made in both apps, and am not saying one is better than the other... just my observations.


EDIT; spelllking and punktuationg

mr Bob
10-17-2006, 03:16 AM
mr Bob -

you sound like Feature film IS the 3D industry what a lot of BS !!! :p
it's like Saying Briten Spears is the Musician of the Century
becasue she sold afew albums,
What about all those other types of music sales, cds, dvd's in all the other style of music WORLDWIDE !

I see better CG on most TV ads then i do in a third rate movie and sometimes even a first rate one.


Feature film would only be 5% tops of the whole 3d industry.
How many feature film studios in the world ?
how many working 3D artist in the world ?

you outside saying you give a outsider POV but your looking down the periscope of submarine call " the 3D industry "
and you see the captain. the captain may look cool But what about the rest of the Crew and all the rest of the ship ?

your POV seem VERY limited view I feel I'm sure other do too.

Where did I say any of that peter ? PLEASE DONT ASSUME what I think because assumption tends to be wrong. I work in film and Im giving my point of view of what is happening with xsi in film. Isnt this whole entire thread an overview of where and what xsi is doing in different areas?. I am hardley going to comment on other areas seeing as I dont work in them am I.

B

T4D
10-17-2006, 04:37 AM
Where did I say any of that peter ? PLEASE DONT ASSUME what I think because assumption tends to be wrong. I work in film and Im giving my point of view of what is happening with xsi in film. Isnt this whole entire thread an overview of where and what xsi is doing in different areas?. I am hardley going to comment on other areas seeing as I dont work in them am I.

B

sorry man I took excepting to you Posting your opinion as fact.
you only live in one place in the world, what about all the other places on the planet ?

not even a Avid sale exec with all the numbers in front of him could post in the way you did

simply by the fact he does not have Maya, C4D, Hondini, max sales numbers
AND has no idea how many new studio's open this year worldwide
AND how many new users have come in to 3D this year.

I know for a FACT LW studio's are moving and moving Fast to XSI.. ( LW has been used in the odd Feature as you may know )


If your opinion was " No Studio in your area have switch to XSI "
I'm totally fine with that ,and happy to get that opinion , You maybe be totally right.

and will be interested in What Avid may do to fix that issue.
and then the thread may go in that direction. ?

but when you say NO feature film studios have switch to XSI period ( implying worldwide )
..
put yourself in a all knowing position and .. well No one can really claim to know any world industry that well. ( not even Bill Gates thinks he know his industry that well )

Xeoxi
10-17-2006, 05:34 AM
I'm wondering if down the road, xsi may be somewhat targeted as a speciality app too. Not along the focused approach of zbrush but more along the lines of how max is a speciality app for architecural visualization. Nobody would consider max an arch-viz tool as it is definately an all around package but it is so good for arch-viz work that it's almost a given that it is the tool you will use if that is your speciality.

ok... observation, I've noticed that xsi holds a better modeling system , over maya, but the industry I've heared and or observerd eat up maya for vfx in movies , and such, huza!

Us as 3d artist , and or working in the field or striving to be in the field, or just for the joy, wouldn't this make a killer studio production pipe......hmmmmmmm hot cheep, modling system xsi, to Maya vfx, render animaton, oh ya baby. What a tool set , the software versitility and you to the employers?

I'm curious. What happened to Softimage

Funny what little slips can create. let see what the future holds, if they keep at the user, and want the gigs.


:buttrock:lol

buttachunk
10-17-2006, 05:56 AM
sorry man I took excepting to you Posting your opinion as fact....I know for a FACT LW studio's are moving and moving Fast to XSI..


Calm down, compadre. You seem to be jumping to alot of conclusions about mrBob's posts, condemning him based on your misunderstanding his posts-- while simultaneously posting "facts" that you know about everyone who uses LW now suddenly jumping ship to XSI... In reality, many "LW studios" are actually using LW with XSI... together. And some formerly Max studios like Blur are also using XSI along with Max. So what ?

Please get your facts straight and stop jumping to conclusions.

T4D
10-17-2006, 06:19 AM
Calm down, compadre. You seem to be jumping to alot of conclusions about mrBob's posts, condemning him based on your misunderstanding his posts-- while simultaneously posting "facts" that you know about everyone who uses LW now suddenly jumping ship to XSI... In reality, many "LW studios" are actually using LW with XSI... together. And some formerly Max studios like Blur are also using XSI along with Max. So what ?

Please get your facts straight and stop jumping to conclusions.

First I'm Not flaming here, I'm happy and Content =)
but you did edit my post to get those comments next to each other.:p

I didn't Say ALL LW studios are switching to XSI Some ARE going Maya's way some are staying with LW too.

the point was SOME were switching and some of those DO feature film.
and "some studio" taking up XSI is alot more then None as mr Bob seemed to say.

Again I'm not piss in anyway
my point was NO one person can sit here and post sweeping statements without Facts.

local knowleage is one thing but the world is a HUGE place, best not to comment on the world state of affairs unless you can Start posting links and Numbers to support the statement.

if anyone would like me to pull together Links for my Lightwave statement I'm happy to do so ? to confirm what i said i only need ONE link

how does a person confirm a statement like

"but over all it has made a zero impact in the film market and I doubt it ever will, "

Barnyard, littlefeet made no impacted in the film Market ??
NO studio doing feature film Worldwide has changed to XSI ??

so i just feel that's such a Huge statements to make !
how does one Back that up with facts or a links,.. is seem extremely hard ...:curious:

( I'm guessing here But I feel XSI would have been added to alot of the Studio whatever market they in, ( face robot, Gator seem pretty useful to me ) it's a great tool and many studio nowadays uses more then one tool for any job so it has to have made "some impact " .... agree ?? )

buttachunk
10-17-2006, 08:44 AM
Okay-- I see what you are saying. Thought you were starting to flame.

Though, he's entitled to say that-- the facts speak for themselves regardless. Everyone views the VFX world differently-- most tend to focus on one area more than others.

It all depends on the project, the budget, and the desired effect. Why are we worried about who uses which package for which shot ? Isn't it like worrying about if someone on the other side of the planet is drinking Coca Cola out of a coffee mug ? :)

T4D
10-17-2006, 08:51 AM
Okay-- I see what you are saying. Thought you were starting to flame.

Though, he's entitled to say that-- the facts speak for themselves regardless. Everyone views the VFX world differently-- most tend to focus on one area more than others.

It all depends on the project, the budget, and the desired effect. Why are we worried about who uses which package for which shot ? Isn't it like worrying about if someone on the other side of the planet is drinking Coca Cola out of a coffee mug ? :)

Yeah Local comments is the point ,if you start commenting on the rest well... that was where i took issue.

YOU drink your Cola from a Coffee Mug WOW !!! the world is full of strange customs ?? :beer:
I go drink it straight out of the bottle :thumbsup:

mr Bob
10-17-2006, 11:39 AM
"but over all it has made a zero impact in the film market and I doubt it ever will, "

Barnyard, littlefeet made no impacted in the film Market ??
NO studio doing feature film Worldwide has changed to XSI ??

so i just feel that's such a Huge statements to make !
how does one Back that up with facts or a links,.. is seem extremely hard ...:curious:

( I'm guessing here But I feel XSI would have been added to alot of the Studio whatever market they in, ( face robot, Gator seem pretty useful to me ) it's a great tool and many studio nowadays uses more then one tool for any job so it has to have made "some impact " .... agree ?? ).

If Im so wrong about my view you must fill me in on what makes you think differently, Just how much xsi film work are you doing is the demand for your xsi skills in Australia not giving you enough time,because so far all my current work throughout the world is all maya.

B

T4D
10-17-2006, 12:00 PM
If Im so wrong about my view you must fill me in on what makes you think differently,

Well the C4D banner on top ( every so often ) shows C4D has effected the Feature film industry in it's little way,
I'm sure even little old FREE download Blender with fluids has touched Features in atidy way
Lightwave my old package it still used in Features to some level. and well it needs major work.
Poser even has effected feature film previz !!

XSI is a great package Sure you may presonally find maya better ( that's fine )

But you say XSI has had " ZERO impact " ???

well reading any CineFex mag sure seems to shows XSI's out there getting used.
the XSI job board seem to show there are afew jobs going around.

all that seems to tell me your not right in saying "ZERO".
If you said XSI only had alittle impacted, how much is little ?
your opinion is yours, I don't see the need to debate over the work "Little"

But ZERO,.. Well I'm up for that :thumbsup:

alittle things can effect much larger things over time = butterfly effect ( good movie and shows the my point )



Just how much xsi film work are you doing is the demand for your xsi skills in Australia not giving you enough time,because so far all my current work throughout the world is all maya.

B

you've done film features that's great :thumbsup:
I would like to do that one day, But i run a great business have no boss and have alot of fun doing what i do, if my opinion means another .. well so be it.:)

BabeBro
10-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Well Cinema4D now has a Gator Type tool as well as Maya (both don't transfer the animation)so Softimage must be doing something right I am glad that I switched over to XSI and though there was a slight learning curve I dont regret it at all.

mr Bob
10-17-2006, 10:28 PM
Thomas. You mention cinefx , as a source showing xsi being used in film , but not what films got a mention for using xsi .There are more jobs going on the xsi job board.but they are for games, commercials, small studios not long form film jobs.If you look on vfx pro / jobs section its looking a bit bare for xsi jobs.


B

T4D
10-17-2006, 11:06 PM
Thomas. You mention cinefx , as a source showing xsi being used in film , but not what films got a mention for using xsi .There are more jobs going on the xsi job board.but they are for games, commercials, small studios not long form film jobs.If you look on vfx pro / jobs section its looking a bit bare for xsi jobs.


B

Man you win,. OK XSI HAS HAd ZERO impact in Film :thumbsup:

I simple don't want to spend my day Scanning Cineflex Mag pages showing what 99% of the poeple out there already know. I have much better things to do.

You Know barnyard & happy feet was 100% XSI ( a fully CG feature does not count effecting the industry ??? just the press alone would do something )

ThE_JacO is clearly working in features and using XSI ( Superman, Charlotte's web I think too )

computer Cafe has members ON these forums who have all talked about XSI in production
http://www.computercafe.com/ they do ALOT of Feature work

but now you want me to go over all my Cineflex mags ( I have 20 or 30 of them )
to proof MY point when you have done nothing to support your point ??

how many XSI film references would you need to admit XSI is making a impacted ??

do you really think MAYA is that Good, when will it need a rewrite ?
Are you happy Autodesk owns Maya now ?
are all other users Happy autodesk owns Maya now ?
if they NOT XSI would be making a impacted without the feature film issue in there at all.

I give up .. :argh:
Troll..Maya Fanboy. thats all i can think sorry,.. There just No logic here anymore :rolleyes:

dwigfor
10-17-2006, 11:20 PM
0 impact on films, huh... Studio Ghibli uses XSI.

kimaldis
10-18-2006, 12:47 PM
xsi is being used exclusively for previz on Golden Compass

kimaldis
10-18-2006, 12:59 PM
It was also used on Brothers Grimm, Pinocchio and Breakfast on Pluto. Sin City I think, Snakes on a Plane, most certainly Racing Stripes, etc, etc.

Studios; Stan Winston, Hybride, Troublemaker, Peerless. I'm guessing CafeFX given who's just started there. There'll be others, of course; these are just off the top of my head and haven't been mentioned here.

if you care to take the trouble to look around you'll see a lot more work being done in XSI than some posters here seem to think. And the seats most definitely are on the increase, as are the positive views on the software.

On a personal note, if we could can the digs and snippy remarks the atmosphere would be a whole lot more professional.

mocaw
10-18-2006, 08:06 PM
0 impact on films, huh... Studio Ghibli uses XSI.

I was just thinking last night that I hadn't looked into XSI based on any large studio tie in- only word of mouth, then I remembered that the whole reason I looked into it was that I was starting an animation project, that used NPR, and remembered reading about Studio Ghibli using it for many different things and so I gave it a try. I believe they've been using softimage products for some time though...

So I guess I fell for it, but I'm much happier for it in the long run- the project went from 60% LW NPR and animation and 40% animation in XSI to 99% XSI in just a few months of using the program.

dwigfor
10-19-2006, 12:59 AM
I was quite excited when Softimage Special Projects came to demo for us and showed off some stuff from Ghost In The Shell 2.

I also liked Animatrix and Appleseed, although I think my favorite parts were Maya.. I loved the short of the girl floating in the air. And the city looked amazing in Appleseed...

buttachunk
10-19-2006, 05:13 AM
If you look on vfx pro / jobs section its looking a bit bare for xsi jobs

That has no affect at all on who is *already employed* using XSI. Many times studios already know freelancers, or farm-out jobs to other companies also on XSI without posting for other jobs. Sin City is an example of this. There are others that come to mind.

This may be due to a lack of XSI training (versus Maya)-- so XSI-based studios have learned to look where they know the talent already is, instead of getting "I know Maya but can learn XSI in 2 weeks" kind of thing from posting ads...

kimaldis
10-19-2006, 06:49 AM
Originally Posted by mr Bob
If you look on vfx pro / jobs section its looking a bit bare for xsi jobs


that may well be correct but it's also true that there's a huge market right now for experienced XSI people.

Talk to anyone who's recruiting for XSI right now and they'll tell you how hard it is to find good people. Pretty much every studio I've been at for tha past couple of years has had to search hard and has often had to accept a shortfall. Lack of trained or experienced XSI people is also a major consideration for studios thinking of taking up XSI, it's the thing they look at first and formost and it's a big problem.

bblanar
10-19-2006, 03:23 PM
just ideas.

1 . Release the production dvd videos online for free. they are great.

2. Set up a section on the softimage site to poll for projects and features you want better explanations for.

3. BASED ON THE SITE POLLS. Grab 2 or 3 SOFTIMAGE EMPLOYEES to build up the free tuts on the xsi site. Crank out videos. Large, High rez, Cineversity format.

4. JOKING/SARCASTIC send me a free update to 5.0 from 4 foundation, because it does not relax/smooth deformer which is standard now in 5.

oglu
10-19-2006, 03:47 PM
point one und three are good ideas... :thumbsup:

NRG-Alpha
10-19-2006, 04:18 PM
i have been very excited and roaring thru learning xsi for some time and now i'm pretty decent at modelling, but what is killing me now is the lack of people online for forums, responses. also, the learning materials are weak. xsi needs to spearhead and create sometheing exactly like Cineversity. Maybe have Digital Tutors crank out a bunch of free ones by paying them? Another thing that Cineversity vids have that differ from what I usually see are..they are LONG and thorough.

http://www.cineversity.com/

LOTS of the tutorials i find for xsi online are for version 1.3 or something from 4 years ago. 95 percent of my reference for learning is from the production series dvds and digital tutors dvds. Forum responses are not very good.

If I was softimage:

1 . Release the production dvd videos online for free.

2. Set up a section on the softimage site to poll for projects and features you want better explanations for.

3. Grab 2 or 3 of your guys who made the production series dvd vids, and throw them in a room with a coffee machine. Crank out videos. Large, High rez, Cineversity format.

4. send me a free update to 5.0 from 4 foundation, because it does not relax/smooth deformer which is standard now in 5. very upsetting : ( id rather not upgrade just to get those 2 buttons.

5. Bribe cgtalk to remove the forum feature that shows How Many People are Viewing. 3 people viewing XSI forums and at least 50 each in Maya or C4D or Max at any given time does not look good and discourages me from continuing my 3d adventure with your software, or for new people..even starting it.


Wow.. something tells me you are going to get flanked for that one... Here is my personal outake on your points listed above.

For #1, you do realise that it takes time and money to produce these things.. If you are serious about self improvement, then this wouldn't be an issue in my opinion.. Otherwise, you should demand a college or university course for free as well...

#2 This is actually a good suggestion.. sned this to Softimage directly.. you never know..

#3 Yeah... so let me get this straight... You want people to sacrifice alot of time just to provide you with free tutorials? You think one sitting with a coffee machine will do it? Man.. try and sit down and do an indepth tutorial and see how long it takes and how much effort it takes.. then tell me if you are willing to do this in a room with a coffee machine.. It's not like everyone has all the time in the world to just drop everything they are doing to do some freebee tutorials.. Ask anyone who has done detailed tutorials before.. its alot of work... alot of work...

#4 The price to power ratio of Foundation is incredible.. so even though you have to pay for each version of foundation, big deal.. you are getting incredible bang for your buck.. Not to mention that you are helping support Softimage.. Giving away freebees is not helping the company stay around to develop future iterations of XSI..

#5 Well, I suppose you are looking for numbers rather than quality.. Admittedly, there are not too many truely knowledgable people (yet).. but I personally am not influenced by the number of people.. so long as there are intelligent threads with those rare few who actually do contribute to help us other people along the way is all I care about.. Would it make you happier if there was 100 non-knowledgable people in the forum? I personally don't care about things like that.

The faster I learn xsi, the faster I can make cool stuff, the sooner I post on here and go ' PROUDLY MADE IN XSI ' . As its looking right now, its going to say 'Modelled in XSI, Everything else in C4D'

Well, again, this links to point number 1... how serious are you in willing to learn XSI? I think that especially for newbies, alot of those tutorials are well worth the price if you are just starting out in XSI.. Invest in yourself my friend, and it will pay off big time in the back end. It is up to the user to self eductate imho.

Cheers,

NRG

bblanar
10-19-2006, 05:05 PM
i updated my original post. let me clarify.

im saying softimage makes more tuts. not the general public.

'hey other xsi users, make more tuts for me!' NOT THAT

of course i dont expect a free copy of xsi, that was just a joke. i mean softimage makes new tutorials for their site. an employee of softimage is paid to create them for the site. like that.

im not influenced by how many people are one the threads either. im saying to those who are, just a minor psyop i guess.

the bottomline is more online basics and instruction from them would help xsi, i think. that's all.

digital tutors are excellent. i own a couple of their dvds.

UPDATE: dang, i just realized digital tuts released a pile of new freebies. in addition, im an idiot.

Felipe
10-19-2006, 06:20 PM
the bottomline is more online basics and instruction from them would help xsi, i think. that's all.


Well, I would love to see Softimage doing something similar to what Luxology does regarding online training. Every friday they upload a little trick, nothing fancy and long, no more than 10 minutes. I believe Softimage could deliver some small tips in a weekly basis for the community for such a complex and powerful application as XSI is, there are endless possibilities.

Felipe

mocaw
10-19-2006, 09:35 PM
The faster I learn xsi, the faster I can make cool stuff, the sooner I post on here and go ' PROUDLY MADE IN XSI ' . As its looking right now, its going to say 'Modelled in XSI, Everything else in C4D'

I see so many people doing this. There is a reason it's a little harder- because it's that much better/more flexable at most of the "Everything else in C4D" you're talking about. If you're still animating in C4D, then you really must love pain. I use maybe on a good day 1/10th the power of XSI FND, and it's a joy. Hell even the basic uses of the constraint system make me giddy.

"cool stuff" is the last thing we need- I see "cool stuff" come out of poser and Blender- does that really say much to anyone with any experience in 3D? We've all seen those niffty "PhotoReal" radiosity renders and models made in every program under the sun- but those don't teel us anything about he journey it took to get from point A to point B.

I do agree though that more via video needs to be shown of how XSI at a gut level works- that is the most exciting part of the program that can't be convayed by a bullet point list, or an amazing render. Workflow IS XSI's main feature as far as I'm concerned- and people don't get why until they see it or really sit down and use it for a while.

I'm not sure these should be full blown tutorials though- just little snippets of "power" like what Felipe was talking about- that should motivate the lazy people to either buy some training, or actully read over older posts and/or the good documentation already with in XSI.

And have you looked at 3D tutoral.com ( http://www.3dtutorial.com/index.php ). I know of very few tutorials that are as extensive. (that is besides some of the insanely detailed German LW car and gear modeling tutorials...)

dwigfor
10-19-2006, 09:46 PM
The Tip And Tricks DVD (It's NTSC) has a lot of little surprises. I was actually more pleased with that than the Production Series dvds..

chikega
10-19-2006, 09:57 PM
And have you looked at 3D tutoral.com ( http://www.3dtutorial.com/index.php ). I know of very few tutorials that are as extensive. (that is besides some of the insanely detailed germain LW car and gear modeling tutorials...)


I have a lot of the 3dtutorial training vids and they're very extensive. Some tend to be very very long. :)

Also check out Digital Tutors (http://www.digitaltutors.com/store/home.php?cat=32). They're XSI library is becoming more extensive - they tend to be short and sweet which I like. Go to Subdivision Modeling forum to get the 5% discount.:)

bblanar
10-19-2006, 10:09 PM
mocaw....TRUST ME ....hehe i know the pain ....

at nite i use xsi and learn and do projects for my pleasure, and at day im forced to use C4D...

i love the workflow of xsi, thats why i chose it, and thats why i stick with it.,

thatoneguy
10-19-2006, 11:13 PM
I disagree with a couple of points that have come up:

Max will not be directed towards games and Maya will not be directed towards movies. At this point, the work flow is almost identical and what's good for one is good for the other. It isn't like 10 years ago where the two processes were completely different. Actually... film work flow is becoming more and more like a game workflow, which was lucky for Max because its Nurbs tools are useless.

I don't know that Max is beating out XSI in small studios because of Vray though. One thing that Max offers bu XSI doesn't is a complete studio pipeline for 3D. Asset management, Network Rendering, Batch operations, etc etc... Things that don't normally show up on a marketing flyer but are essential to running a studio smoothly. It's like a small studio in a box. Just add Combustion and Photoshop and run. This is also evident in the way Max is being sold. Nobody would buy Max just for its basic modelling components like XSI, as a result the only option for Max is All of Max or None of Max from a Retail standpoint. Maya is the exact opposite and decided that nobody wants to be told how to do things, which is true in a large complicated high volume pipeline.

What I think XSI has really going for it right now is the democratization of modelling. It's not unusual now for each modeller at a studio to be using a different modelling application. In the end it's all polygons. And XSI has a top notch modelling component, and at $500 a seat its cheaper than buying a full blown application which won't be used like Max. Then again, it's also going to face tough opposition from Modo and company.

This is part of the reason why I think XSI is going to succeed, just maybe not in the way you would normally expect. It doesn't seem like I know of any studios rendering in XSI. It isn't necessarily as strong as Maya from a TD stand point, and it's not as easily deployable or as fast as Max, it's kind of left in the lurch somewhere in between. But who cares? There are tons of seats for animators, modellers and texture artists who don't necessarily *have* to work in the final render application. Look at Blur Studios. That I think is an indication of the future of XSI. And to respond to an earlier post, I think Softimage realizes this, look at Face Robot, look at the control schemes inside of XSI. Softimage is heavily marketing their products as complimentary as opposed to competitive.

P.S. Max stopped corrupting save files in Version 4... I think it was even an official marketing bullet point "Now doesn't corrupt files." ;) Maya 7 on the other hand...

mocaw
10-20-2006, 12:02 AM
I disagree with a couple of points that have come up:

Max will not be directed towards games and Maya...

Are we looking at just FND or ESS and Advance here? There are several points you made that, when looking beyond FND, aren't true. Looking over the comparison chart you'll notice some things that MAX ALSO doens't have...

In fact, at the level you're arguing XSI comes with "Combustion" in Ess. and Advance...

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/pricing_and_packaging/model_comparison/Default.aspx

Besides, for the price of ess. and Alienbrain couldn't you then say your point is even more moot...and for about the same price? Then all you need is photoshop and an Avid station for HUGE amount of what one might do- right? I don't do as intensive work as you though- so I'm more asking these questions then trying to argue them!

luceric
10-20-2006, 12:48 AM
I disagree with a couple of points that have come up:

Max will not be directed towards games and Maya will not be directed towards movies. [ ...]
At this point, the work flow is almost identical and what's good for one is good for the other. [...]
I don't know that Max is beating out XSI in small studios because of Vray though. [...]. Nobody would buy Max just for its basic modelling components like XSI, as a result the only option for Max is All of Max or None of Max from a Retail standpoint.
Well _I_ disagree with much of what you say :-D, with the main extracts quoted above. (re-read this quote to understand the context of what I'm replying to)

First, it's autodesk that says Max is more directed towards game, not the posters in this forum. That makes sense in Max is the leader in the game market by wide margin.

Games and Film are not the same focus at all, the workflow is not the same beyond the very basic. Game developers work on Windows only, they use Visual Studio and other Windows tools, and writing import/export plug-in is the priority. Film would never touch Character Studio with a ten foot poll, they work on linux and love creating their own complex rig for a subble effect; the TD and scripting is king. The applications are completely focused differently.
Also, VRay may be a factor in your region, but vray really came about for architectural rendering. People aren't buying Max to use it, they are using it because they were already using Max, and the built-in Max renderer wasn't enough for archi-viz. (I'd like to know how many copies of VRay are actually sold compared to the total numbers of seats of Max, which now comes with MentalRay.) Also, the ArchViz people aren't the clients of XSI, there is nothing in it for them, with or without VRay.

Finally, it's false that there are many people buying XSI 'just for modeling'. The price concious who only want a cheap modeler buy Silo, then Modo, Rhino, etc. Nearly everyone that buys XSI is buying it for at least two out of Modeling,animation and rendering. XSI isn't in the market of dedicated modelers. If it were, Foundation would have much fewer features included.

dwigfor
10-20-2006, 02:38 AM
I was quite surprised when Softimage released a plugin (GATOR)... for Max?!?

I hope CAT will be included with Advanced... I'm having my doubts though... Also, I'm a bit bummed that Advanced doesn't have distributed rendering....

mocaw
10-20-2006, 02:57 AM
Also, I'm a bit bummed that Advanced doesn't have distributed rendering....

Are you sure? It's posted as a feature right on the site, and there are many references to it on the web such as this:

http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/index.php/Distributed_rendering_and_the_mental_ray_service

and here

http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=2912;start=0

and...

Or do you mean the backburner method?

ThE_JacO
10-20-2006, 03:35 AM
I disagree with a couple of points that have come up:

Max will not be directed towards games and Maya will not be directed towards movies. At this point, the work flow is almost identical and what's good for one is good for the other. It isn't like 10 years ago where the two processes were completely different. Actually... film work flow is becoming more and more like a game workflow, which was lucky for Max because its Nurbs tools are useless.
Since you showed the (appreciated) courtesy of stating that it's disagreement, I'll present the same courtesy :)
I'm disagreeing, but happy to acknowledge that a large part of what we discuss here is perceptual. Some of it however is fairly factual evidence, and your post creaks at the joints in those places.
In first place Film is still widely different from games.
The quality gap is quickly closing in terms of modeling and in terms of budgets (films with 15mills budgets get some VFX work now, and games aren't a 5people in a basement playout anymore), everything else though, especially data handling and people management (and that's 50% of a studio) are still two different planets.
Many other things also differ, but not to the point of being near reciprocal like the above.

the nurbs tools comment has no place to be though, nurbs stopped being a scale tipper for film studios several years ago.

I don't know that Max is beating out XSI in small studios because of Vray though. One thing that Max offers bu XSI doesn't is a complete studio pipeline for 3D. Asset management, Network Rendering, Batch operations, etc etc... Things that don't normally show up on a marketing flyer but are essential to running a studio smoothly. It's like a small studio in a box. Just add Combustion and Photoshop and run.
ok, this is where I feel you went way off the mark.
pipeline engineering for film is what I do for a living half my time, and to be honest your comparison is inverted.
Max doesn't have the bones to make dataflow and asset management easy, let alone the flesh.
Of the two the one that comes out on top in terms of pipeline friendliness, and OotB completness is infact XSI. It's simply better engineered to start with, and better kitted to finish with.
Max enjoys a width and bredth of 3rd party support, which helped it survive, but when you buy it it's absolutely unsuitable to be on its own in a pipe.
And for the record, since you mentioned batching and asset management:
Avid owns XSI -and- AlienBrain, make your own maths
MAX only runs on one OS and is fairly blackboxed, and that one OS (windows) is -the- worst possible choice for batching tasks.

These are just two points worth mentioning out of many.
the modelling comments have been well addressed by Luc, so I'll skimp

P.S. Max stopped corrupting save files in Version 4... I think it was even an official marketing bullet point "Now doesn't corrupt files." ;) Maya 7 on the other hand...
several people who had long shiny flowing hair, and are now bald, would wholeheartedly disagree :)
Max has one monolithic, unexposed, garbled and outdated binary fileformat for everything, Maya has an open, documented, widely interfaced ascii file format. This difference alone makes data reliability an argument that doesn't exist in first place.

last but not least, lemme say that my post isn't intended to slam on max (I couldn't care less tbh), but it intends to adress the perception of it that is, quite factually, way off the hinges.

dwigfor
10-20-2006, 03:45 AM
Unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if so), Advanced has Satellite, but not distributed...
http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/index.php/INFO:_Understanding_Rendering_Licensing

mocaw
10-20-2006, 06:11 AM
Unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if so), Advanced has Satellite, but not distributed...
http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/index.php/INFO:_Understanding_Rendering_Licensing

Where does it say it doesn't do straight up distributed rendering on that page though?

Are we talking different forms of parallel rendering? I don't really see what you're getting at to tell you the truth. As far as I can see it does each main method:

http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/index.php/Distributed_rendering_and_the_mental_ray_service

Maybe it's just harder to setup than in max with backburner? I'm sure someone here will be able to clarify. ThE_JacO - care to weigh in on this?

ThE_JacO
10-20-2006, 07:18 AM
Maybe it's just harder to setup than in max with backburner? I'm sure someone here will be able to clarify. ThE_JacO - care to weigh in on this?

in the context of the post this is branching off from, which is large scale pipeline friendliness, it's an entirely moot point to discuss.
anybody stupid enough to use backburner or batch render (not to be confused with xsi batch) to run mid scale (or larger) distributed computing is setting himself up for catastrophe.

it takes a couple of people just a few months to get a decent small size solution in place, and not much more to get a large scale and adaptive solution in place for the big players, usually based on some pre-made backend (ranging from canned ones like rush to the really cool, and OSS, stuff like GRID).

to that you should add that, again, max (and backburner as a consequence) is windows focused, and anybody putting large scale distributed computing at work on a windows platform is either clueless or masochistic and loaded with too much money.

MJV
10-20-2006, 08:32 AM
Does one have to be clueless to set up a PC render farm at home too? I have yet to try getting XSI rendering on more than one machine but by the sounds of it I think I might qualify.

ThE_JacO
10-20-2006, 08:42 AM
Does one have to be clueless to set up a PC render farm at home too? I have yet to try getting XSI rendering on more than one machine but by the sounds of it I think I might qualify.

if we shift this to small scale, and not to larger scale anymore, and the data management requirments aren't as pressing, then all you need is minimal technical understanding, and a lot of stubborness and patience.

If I had SI|3D and other arcaic and unfriendly software running distributed processing at school , when I was 16 and I knew bugger all about this stuff, then anybody can do it nowadays :)

If you want help with getting it running I'll be happy to try and chime in MJ, but this is the wrong thread, and the topic might be worth starting your own.
If it was a statement about distributed processing being too difficult in small scale... then the topic might still fit (with a bit of stretching) and I'll leave the branch alone, since I haven't done anything small scale in years now (and kinda miss it too sometimes, but that's probably because I don't remember how painful it was :) )

doctorbob
10-21-2006, 11:12 PM
ranging from canned ones like rush to the really cool, and OSS, stuff like GRID

hey raffaele,

do you have a link hand for info on GRID? sounds intriguing...

cheers,
chrisg

ThE_JacO
10-22-2006, 03:49 PM
hey raffaele,

do you have a link hand for info on GRID? sounds intriguing...

cheers,
chrisg

http://gridengine.sunsource.net/
It's a now OSSed project that used to cost some pretty penny when it wasn't, and it's an amazing piece of software. Just remember it's a backend for distributed computing, not strictly a renderfarm software, which makes it better and worse then canned stuff like rush in many ways.

jgoldfin
10-26-2006, 10:51 PM
I am so annoyed - I wrote this big long post today and wasn't logged in, and then it disappeared. Newbie.

Anyway.. I read most of these posts on this thread today, as have a few of my colleagues, and there are a few issues that I wanted to address to perhaps clear up any misconceptions. These threads are great, because although they are not always filled with happy posts, they bring forward a lot of concerns that the community has, and we are always looking to how better address those.

My role at Soft is to manage customer and partner relations, in case you are wondering who I am.

1. XSI used in film production. Yes, many shops out there use XSI for film, in addition to a variety of off the shelf and proprietary products. It's sometimes difficult to get permission to show clips in a reel or get customer images, but we do our best to highlight what's going on out there, and it's my goal in 2007 to increase that awareness. Some years are bigger than others for us - and 2006 was huge with Barnyard and Happy Feet. There was also 8 Below, Brokeback Mountain, Snakes on a Plane and quite a few more. Then there are the ones I can't talk about, where we know there are active licenses being used in big studios.

2. Training. We used to have an extensive in-house training team, but currently our trainers are working on-site with clients. Since we didn't have anyone dedicated to building proper training materials in house, we have expanded partnerships with several companies, including Digital Tutors, 3D Tutorial, Gnomon, Pixel Corps, plus several publishers. They are the experts, and we do our best to support them and give them any information they need to develop their products, as well as help promote them. In addition, I am happy to extend licenses to people who are developing on-line tutorials, reviews, etc - so if you are interested, please contact me.

3. We just grew our sales and marketing team to better address the needs of our customers. We have a new Director of Sales, a Director of Marketing and Marcom manager, among others. These talented individuals came to Softimage from other 3D software companies, and we have been working hard on planning a kick ass 2007.

4. User community. We don't have the biggest, but we have the best. And I believe that goes the same way with our own team. I have worked at several different tech companies in the last.. ahem... many years, and I have never seen more dedicated development and field teams when it comes to working with clients.

So, we do our best to listen to what you are saying, and and to reflect that in what we do.

As always, feel free to email me off the forums if you want to continue any discussions.

best regards,
jen
jgoldfin@softimage.com

Rhs_CG
10-26-2006, 11:08 PM
Thanks jgoldfin. That was very generous input of yours. Can't wait to be part of the community (contributing) once I can afford a license of XSI. :-)

vbvcvj
10-27-2006, 02:38 AM
If you're still animating in C4D, then you really must love pain.

I think you'd better check out the latest release of C4D first. :)

Stone
10-27-2006, 09:27 AM
P.S. Max stopped corrupting save files in Version 4... I think it was even an official marketing bullet point "Now doesn't corrupt files." ;) Maya 7 on the other hand...

my max v8 regulary corrupts save files. the most common case being when the application runs out of memory while it tries to save, which is just rediculous.

/stone

Sbowling
10-27-2006, 11:04 AM
I think you'd better check out the latest release of C4D first. :)

To upgrade my current copy of C4D would cost more than a new copy of XSI foundation and I'm pretty sure the new character animation features are only included in the XL package (more than $2k) and up or need to be purchased seperately for andother $500. Dynamics require the studio bundle (more than $3k) and may or may not be available seperately. I can't comment on the quality of the new Ca Tools (not a whole lot about them on the web site that I could find), but I can't imagine them being better than what XSI has.

This isn't a jab at C4D, it has some nice features and the new ones look to be a nice improvement, but it's not a cheap package. For over $3k you get about what XSI essentials (+Bhairy) has.

Bullit
10-27-2006, 07:15 PM
Thanks for that words Jen, it's good to get that kind of feedback.

BabeBro
10-27-2006, 07:44 PM
Thank you Jennifer, that is great to hear! Looking forward to Siggraph 2007!!

JDex
10-28-2006, 03:12 AM
All trolling aside... thanks for the post Jen, and feel free to post around here whenever. Oh, BTW... when's that next release? :D

benytone
10-28-2006, 10:11 AM
I am so annoyed - I wrote this big long post today and wasn't logged in...


Hi Jennifer http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/f050.gif
nice to see you here


.

Per-Anders
10-28-2006, 11:23 AM
To upgrade my current copy of C4D would cost more than a new copy of XSI foundation and I'm pretty sure the new character animation features are only included in the XL package (more than $2k) and up or need to be purchased seperately for andother $500. Dynamics require the studio bundle (more than $3k) and may or may not be available seperately. I can't comment on the quality of the new Ca Tools (not a whole lot about them on the web site that I could find), but I can't imagine them being better than what XSI has.

This isn't a jab at C4D, it has some nice features and the new ones look to be a nice improvement, but it's not a cheap package. For over $3k you get about what XSI essentials (+Bhairy) has.

I think you might be somewhat misinformed. Better to as he suggests go and try out the demo first before making any comparisons, incidentally you can try it out sans modules by simply removing them from the modules folder to see what you get in the core. Not entirely sure what this has got to do with the presence of Softimage within a very specific and admittedly small but prestigious market segment though...

@elfdestruct - Everyone else has managed to be perfectly civil here, why is this being such a problem for you that you must even berate the official input into the thread that you were calling for earlier?

Sbowling
10-29-2006, 12:50 AM
I think you might be somewhat misinformed. Better to as he suggests go and try out the demo first before making any comparisons, incidentally you can try it out sans modules by simply removing them from the modules folder to see what you get in the core. Not entirely sure what this has got to do with the presence of Softimage within a very specific and admittedly small but prestigious market segment though...


I was going off the web site. The character animation is part of (or is) the Mocca 3 addon and sells for $525 alone. If it's a part of the base package ($895), why would they sell it separately? My comments were more related to cost between Cinema4d and XSI and what you get for that cost. XSI foundation is much closer to the Cinema4D XL version than the base package and costs much, much less.

Per-Anders
10-29-2006, 02:01 AM
I was going off the web site. The character animation is part of (or is) the Mocca 3 addon and sells for $525 alone. If it's a part of the base package ($895), why would they sell it separately? My comments were more related to cost between Cinema4d and XSI and what you get for that cost. XSI foundation is much closer to the Cinema4D XL version than the base package and costs much, much less.

It was actually in reference to your whole post all points made therein, not just that part. However in response here MOCCA is certain additional CA specific tools, for instance the Muscles system, it's not the total of the C4D CA toolset, just more focused or in some cases esoteric tools. As you would expect the core contains the new bones/joints, ik system, rigging tools, contraints etc, and so on and so forth. It is admitedly somewhat confusing and not really covered that much by the marketing (most of the features aren't), but fortunately that's why there's a demo. Anyhow, rather than us derailing this thread anymore feel free to either continue via pm or start up a new thread in the C4D area if you have any questions :)

MJV
10-29-2006, 10:24 AM
Oh, BTW... when's that next release? :D

That would be my main concern too. I've been an Advanced owner for a year now and the only development I've seen is with Face Robot and that is a separately sold module that reportedly isn't going to be rolled into Advanced. It isn't very thrilling to attend the Softimage development conferences and the only thing shown is something you'll never get. Moreover, I feel that the non linear toolset isn't that terribly impressive anymore given that SI basically invented the concept but now Motion Builder appears to be leading its development. I also wouldn't mind seeing the interface being made to be more easily customized (without scripting) via drag and drop docking of managers as in C4D. Something along the lines of C4D's Xpresso and Cebas' Thinking Particles would be great too, as would a procedural modeling and animation toolset such as C4D's Mograph.

yourteenidol
10-29-2006, 11:54 AM
That would be my main concern too.....

I would not spend too much time worring about it. I don't think you will be disappointed with what Softimage has coming for us all in the near future. More than that, I can't comment.

yolao
10-29-2006, 02:19 PM
when's that next release? :D

I will like to know that also.

Softimage rocks big time:thumbsup:, and is by far one of my favorite 3d apps...

But it seems that there is no info whatsoever of the next release, just a couple of comments here and there but nothing more, the last big update was long time ago, and as MJV mention the feauture that they show most is face robot.

But after said that, knowing softimage i`m sure that the next release will be HUGE:thumbsup:, and as someone said before a revolution!.

BabeBro
10-30-2006, 04:23 PM
That would be my main concern too. I've been an Advanced owner for a year now and the only development I've seen is with Face Robot and that is a separately sold module that reportedly isn't going to be rolled into Advanced. It isn't very thrilling to attend the Softimage development conferences and the only thing shown is something you'll never get. Moreover, I feel that the non linear toolset isn't that terribly impressive anymore given that SI basically invented the concept but now Motion Builder appears to be leading its development. I also wouldn't mind seeing the interface being made to be more easily customized (without scripting) via drag and drop docking of managers as in C4D. Something along the lines of C4D's Xpresso and Cebas' Thinking Particles would be great too, as would a procedural modeling and animation toolset such as C4D's Mograph.

I was at the private invite only Soft seminar at Siggraph this year and all I can say it that you will be happy to be on maintenance when the time arrives..some really cool shit coming.

KidderD
10-31-2006, 01:42 PM
Yeah, that's all well and good. I'm glad the people that are already on maintenance will be happy. What soft doesn't seem to realize is that even if they have an amazing 6, they have no advertising for it. Who's going to be learning about xsi right now, when Maya has already advertised their new dynamics engine, or the one I'm personally excited about Houdini has advertised their new dynamics and more artist friendly workflow. I mean a month ago, I wanted to pick up the evaluation for xsi, but I couldn't. All I've heard from them is a couple of tidbits at Sigg, which amounted to meh!

To me it doesn't seem like a good way to build a userbase. Oh, well Meh!

yourteenidol
10-31-2006, 02:05 PM
Yeah, that's all well and good. I'm glad the people that are already on maintenance will be happy. What soft doesn't seem to realize is that even if they have an amazing 6, they have no advertising for it. Who's going to be learning about xsi right now, when Maya has already advertised their new dynamics engine, or the one I'm personally excited about Houdini has advertised their new dynamics and more artist friendly workflow. I mean a month ago, I wanted to pick up the evaluation for xsi, but I couldn't. All I've heard from them is a couple of tidbits at Sigg, which amounted to meh!

To me it doesn't seem like a good way to build a userbase. Oh, well Meh!


Well.... I'd rather that softimage spent their budget paying the developers to produce a solid release rather than a hyped up ad campagin. Word gets around anyway. 3D is a small world.

KidderD
10-31-2006, 02:26 PM
Well.... I'd rather that softimage spent their budget paying the developers to produce a solid release rather than a hyped up ad campagin. Word gets around anyway. 3D is a small world.

Seems reasonable. Let me ask you this do you use XSI right now? Back a few months ago, I thought I got some interest directly from Soft mentioning this same thing, of course it was off list, but still it seemed to ring through.

yourteenidol
10-31-2006, 03:54 PM
Seems reasonable. Let me ask you this do you use XSI right now? Back a few months ago, I thought I got some interest directly from Soft mentioning this same thing, of course it was off list, but still it seemed to ring through.


Yes, I do use XSI right now, but I also use other 3D software applications as well.
In any event, I never base my judgements about an application based on the marketing hype, because we all know that hype is simply that, hype.

Again, I don't feel let down by the releases softimage have made in the past and based on their past performance there is no dobut that what is coming in future will also be excellent.

At the end of the day I'm not bothered about who thinks their application is best and how they advertise it, the only thing that matters to ME is if it does the job that I need it to.

I think good and bad news spread very quickly in the 3d industry and if you've got a solid application with some great features, the word will get out there on the streets one way or another.

So if they build it, I think the user base will come!

OvidiusTiberius
10-31-2006, 04:36 PM
hello .i see you are treating a very intereasting problem here.....so please help me in my problem too....i am a maya user but my boss and colaborator want to start with xsi because of it's price...what do you think...does anyone of you used both last versions of maya and xsi?what is best in each one and what is not(heart or prooved)?...please be onest because my future depend of this choice...and...anyway i heart (maybe a roumour) that no other version of xsi will apear because of it' s bad marketing?--maybe a roumour!!
so what should i do?
thanks a lot and sorry for my english...i'm not native....

KidderD
10-31-2006, 05:37 PM
I was thinking of XSI, I don't do primarily effects work, but there is always some in my work. More and more as time goes on as it seems. And, so, with hearing what I've heard (your right "Word gets around anyway. 3D is a small world") about XSI's effects, I won't spend the time to learn this app.

Hey, more for you!

BabeBro
10-31-2006, 06:17 PM
Yeah, that's all well and good. I'm glad the people that are already on maintenance will be happy. What soft doesn't seem to realize is that even if they have an amazing 6, they have no advertising for it. Who's going to be learning about xsi right now, when Maya has already advertised their new dynamics engine, or the one I'm personally excited about Houdini has advertised their new dynamics and more artist friendly workflow. I mean a month ago, I wanted to pick up the evaluation for xsi, but I couldn't. All I've heard from them is a couple of tidbits at Sigg, which amounted to meh!

To me it doesn't seem like a good way to build a userbase. Oh, well Meh!

I don't want to turn this into an app war so will just say since 3.0 Soft has always come through on what they promised and always have features that they have innovated..Now you have some form of Gator in Maya, Cinema 4d, etc.. Everyone bitched when soft did not have rigid body dynamics and then they came through with that.. and then stepped it up with Ageia's engine. I am sure soft will market 6.0 the thier fullest extend now that they have the team that Jennifer mentioned..

I am not an FX artist but with the stuff I saw at siggraph It appears they are addressing the issue. The are focusing on character Animation but also note that characters can be the human tourch, a fire breathing dragon, or a psudo pod from the Abyss..

Bullit
10-31-2006, 08:04 PM
hello .i see you are treating a very intereasting problem here.....so please help me in my problem too....i am a maya user but my boss and colaborator want to start with xsi because of it's price...what do you think...


What you'll do with it? If you work with Nurbs or Fluids it's a bad choice changing to XSI. Other than that i dont see any problem changing to XSI, it's more user friendly and its user base is growing.

ThomasLC
11-01-2006, 02:52 PM
Also, the ArchViz people aren't the clients of XSI, there is nothing in it for them, with or without VRay.

? care to elaborate ?

should we stop using xsi ?

I'm just starting using xsi so I may be wrong, but it's hability to handle large databases, the way passes are implemented, the integration of mentalray and the way one can customise its interface, script nearly everything, pack some shader in spdls etc makes XSi a fabulous choise for archiviz…

the only difference between XSI and the other (archi-wise) is third party partners like rpc, but this is not a must have…

toma

mocaw
11-01-2006, 05:05 PM
I also wouldn't mind seeing the interface being made to be more easily customized (without scripting) via drag and drop docking of managers as in C4D. Something along the lines of C4D's Xpresso and Cebas' Thinking Particles would be great too, as would a procedural modeling and animation toolset such as C4D's Mograph.

I know it's not as sexy as Silo, Modo, or even zbrush in how gee-wiz it is, but what's wrong with the custom toolbars? You don't need to script to do those and you can add a lot more than just basic interface commands to it if need be.

Plus, and I know to each there own here, but I and others simply detest the interface of many other applications, namley C4D, Maya, and MAX. I could start a whole thread on that, but one of the reasons I chose XSI was the clean and simple interface- I would almost like it even more simplified. I'm not against things being re-dockable etc. but I have a strong distaste for applications that don't make ctrl keys the main form of navigation right away. Read- Icons must die!!! If anything I wish there was an option to have each key, and command in every dropdown window show its currently assigned command key. This is really nice when you have to work on someone elses machine- and they've got it all "customized" out to THEIR liking. That's why I try and stick to them- and those keys can float all around in my head- no need to customize!

While Mograph is cool I just don't really see it being that big of a deal in the end. Maybe if you need to knock things out asap for broadcast, but it kind of reminds me of the modern version of an FX processor panel or something that Kai of Kai's powertools would come up with. It coudl be powerful in the right hands, but you know a lot of people are going to just slap on the default, make two tweaks and call it good. How is this that much better than cloning in XSI and using the L(x,y) and R(x,y) in any transform (or any area really) area and then keyframing along side all the other tools?

And I can't seem to find the huge difference between procedural modeling in C4D and the XSI opperator stack? Could someone enlighten me as to how this is that much different? Is this just for Mograph or the whole package? Is it like Houdini?

I don't know, maybe these things can and should be improved in XSI, but to make it sound like C4D is strides beyond all the other apps out there on these fronts doesn't ring true to me.

I can't argue thought about the particles- there are some excellent features in XSI...but I have found other systems easier to use for the same effects, but maybe it's just my level of useage?

tarkovsky
11-01-2006, 05:19 PM
The handling of large amounts of data is really really nice and the quickrender is fantastic. But if you by arch-vis mean "photoreal" renders, Vray is just an easier setup with light, materials and different render possibilities.
Now if you got your head properly around the rendertree, and are able to joggle with all the fantastic shaderplugins around, then I can't see any reason to use any other soft, but not all people would wan't to go through that kind of learning process, which is the reason I find lucerics comment valid.
Maybe the next version of MR will change that...
If you're not doing photoreal stuff, then thank god for XSI :)

tark

ThomasLC
11-01-2006, 09:08 PM
vray maybe easyer to learn than mr, but I have the feeling that what makes a render easy to do with max is more rpc and character studio.

I do realistic or "photorealistic" stills and a few animation, but choosing xsi as a host for mr seems logical for me…

I am sure that the more the archiviz market (and people) will mature, the more a robust and modern package like xsi will be chosen over others. I am one of these people, doing 'archi viz' isn't always slapping a few textures on a simple mesh and hitting the "make a photoreal render", sometimes you need more control, and something that can scale well. this is where max lightwave and c4d will fail. so now the choice is between maya & xsi.

archi viz is a strong market, I'm doing this since the late 90's and I see that in the last five years archiviz just started to grow even faster, I hope (because I use it) that softimage will try at least not to frightened the "archi viz people"…

toma

Bullit
11-01-2006, 10:11 PM
vray maybe easyer to learn than mr, but I have the feeling that what makes a render easy to do with max is more rpc and character studio.

I do realistic or "photorealistic" stills and a few animation, but choosing xsi as a host for mr seems logical for me…

I am sure that the more the archiviz market (and people) will mature, the more a robust and modern package like xsi will be chosen over others. I am one of these people, doing 'archi viz' isn't always slapping a few textures on a simple mesh and hitting the "make a photoreal render", sometimes you need more control, and something that can scale well. this is where max lightwave and c4d will fail. so now the choice is between maya & xsi.

archi viz is a strong market, I'm doing this since the late 90's and I see that in the last five years archiviz just started to grow even faster, I hope (because I use it) that softimage will try at least not to frightened the "archi viz people"…


I disagree with most of what you said. How much time did you work with Vray?

MJV
11-01-2006, 11:51 PM
I know it's not as sexy as Silo, Modo, or even zbrush in how gee-wiz it is, but what's wrong with the custom toolbars? You don't need to script to do those and you can add a lot more than just basic interface commands to it if need be.

Plus, and I know to each there own here, but I and others simply detest the interface of many other applications, namley C4D, Maya, and MAX. I could start a whole thread on that, but one of the reasons I chose XSI was the clean and simple interface- I would almost like it even more simplified. I'm not against things being re-dockable etc. but I have a strong distaste for applications that don't make ctrl keys the main form of navigation right away. Read- Icons must die!!! If anything I wish there was an option to have each key, and command in every dropdown window show its currently assigned command key. This is really nice when you have to work on someone elses machine- and they've got it all "customized" out to THEIR liking. That's why I try and stick to them- and those keys can float all around in my head- no need to customize!

While Mograph is cool I just don't really see it being that big of a deal in the end. Maybe if you need to knock things out asap for broadcast, but it kind of reminds me of the modern version of an FX processor panel or something that Kai of Kai's powertools would come up with. It coudl be powerful in the right hands, but you know a lot of people are going to just slap on the default, make two tweaks and call it good. How is this that much better than cloning in XSI and using the L(x,y) and R(x,y) in any transform (or any area really) area and then keyframing along side all the other tools?

And I can't seem to find the huge difference between procedural modeling in C4D and the XSI opperator stack? Could someone enlighten me as to how this is that much different? Is this just for Mograph or the whole package? Is it like Houdini?

I don't know, maybe these things can and should be improved in XSI, but to make it sound like C4D is strides beyond all the other apps out there on these fronts doesn't ring true to me.

I can't argue thought about the particles- there are some excellent features in XSI...but I have found other systems easier to use for the same effects, but maybe it's just my level of useage?

I only mentioned the areas of Cinema that I think are strong compared to XSI because I would like to see their equal in XSI and obviously I don't want SI to emulate the areas of Cinema that I think are weak. I didn't intend to make it sound like C4D is strides beyond all other apps but if that's the way you read it then maybe you would like it. Since I use Cinema regularly I am well acquainted with its strengths so I think I know something of what I speak. I certainly know it better than I know XSI so it's possible that I'm overlooking some things but I'm pretty sure that XSI has nothing comparable to Thinking Particles, Mograph or the customizable flexibility of Cinema. It certainly was a puzzle for me at the last XSI showcase I attended seeing the presenter explain how with just a few scripts and maybe ten minutes work you could accomplish a somewhat customizable interface where the same thing and much more can be done in Cinema in mere seconds. I'm not saying this to put down XSI I'm stating the fact of the matter. As for Mograph I just wish you could watch over my shoulder the things that Mograph can do because I think you would be very impressed. For sure XSI has some strengths in the procedural modeling department. There are many aspects of XSI that just blow me away that I wish Cinema had too. Modeling history, the CA toolset in general, the non linear editing and file referencing to name a few. Anyway it's not my intention to start an app war but just wishing that XSI had some of the things I'm used to having in Cinema so I'd feel a little more at home and comfortable using it.

Sbowling
11-02-2006, 05:58 AM
I also wouldn't mind seeing the interface being made to be more easily customized (without scripting) via drag and drop docking of managers as in C4D. Something along the lines of C4D's Xpresso and Cebas' Thinking Particles would be great too, as would a procedural modeling and animation toolset such as C4D's Mograph.

Have you actually tried creating your own interface for XSI? It's probably the most customizable interface I've ever used and it is extremely easy. Being able to dock or undock a toolbar is nice (and I would welcome it in XSI), but it's really nothing compared to what you can do in XSI. Select View>Layout>New Blank Layout and name it. Now, just right click and select split horizontal or vertical and more the line to where you want it. Now right click in an area and select set view and choose anything you want to have in that area. Doing this you can crate special layouts specifically for animation or modeling (lightwave users might like this) or scripting or UV editing. The possibilities are near endless and there is no scripting involved.


XSI has nothing comparable to Thinking Particles


I'm very happy for that. I find XSI's particles to be much easier to use than TP in C4d.

ThomasLC
11-02-2006, 07:08 AM
I disagree with most of what you said. How much time did you work with Vray?

never ;) I'm a future-ex-lightwave guy, so I am used to the most easy to settup renderer, namely fprime. but while that simplicity is god send when I'm on a rush, it is a pain in the ass when I need to do render passes or layers, control the way a object contributes to the GI and so on. I am sure that vray gives more control, as fprime and lightwave give none, but is it really much easier or faster than mr ?

btw I am not a zealot, I did choose LW a few years ago and now I choose xsi, but it is after all a matter of personnal choice or taste...

toma

MJV
11-02-2006, 12:36 PM
Have you actually tried creating your own interface for XSI? It's probably the most customizable interface I've ever used and it is extremely easy. Being able to dock or undock a toolbar is nice (and I would welcome it in XSI), but it's really nothing compared to what you can do in XSI. Select View>Layout>New Blank Layout and name it. Now, just right click and select split horizontal or vertical and more the line to where you want it. Now right click in an area and select set view and choose anything you want to have in that area. Doing this you can crate special layouts specifically for animation or modeling (lightwave users might like this) or scripting or UV editing. The possibilities are near endless and there is no scripting involved.



I'm very happy for that. I find XSI's particles to be much easier to use than TP in C4d.

I have actually created my own interfaces in XSI and it's nothing like the ease and control you have in Cinema.

OvidiusTiberius
11-02-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by Bullit.What you'll do with it? If you work with Nurbs or Fluids it's a bad choice changing to XSI. Other than that i dont see any problem changing to XSI, it's more user friendly and its user base is growing.


so i supose to do some modelling and animation and i am very interested about rendering(people says that mental ray in maya is going slower than this in xsi-it's thrue?)
i know nothing yet about xsi for that i am asking about it!
so in the future you think it will evolve ? no problem with it's marketing how i heard?
and indeed more people are starting with xsi?(sory! too many questions)
please somebody geave me some links for some gorgeos works maked in xsi!i realy didn't seen too many yet,unfortunately,eaven here on cgSociety!


thanks,tig

bjoern
11-02-2006, 03:25 PM
I'm very happy for that. I find XSI's particles to be much easier to use than TP in C4d.
what... ? :-)
I don't know how Thinking particles is in C4D. But Thinking particles (in Max) is after Houdini Particles by faaar the best System on the market! Mayas Partcles are for example not half as good as TP. And Maya's Particles are way better then XSI one's.... ;)

gent_k
11-02-2006, 05:28 PM
what... ? :-)
I don't know how Thinking particles is in C4D. But Thinking particles (in Max) is after Houdini Particles by faaar the best System on the market! Mayas Partcles are for example not half as good as TP. And Maya's Particles are way better then XSI one's.... ;)

The one in c4d is the equivalent of version 1.0 in max afaik, so not really comparable to TP 2.5 in max. Version 2.5 has seen major improvements both in the engine and features by now.

MJV
11-02-2006, 05:47 PM
The one in c4d is the equivalent of version 1.0 in max afaik, so not really comparable to TP 2.5 in max. Version 2.5 has seen major improvements both in the engine and features by now.

I think it's a little further along than version 1.0 as it has Matter Waves but true it's not 2.5. It doesn't have the Ageia PhysX engine of version 2.5 for example, which would be sweet. One thing it does have going for it is its seemless integration with Xpresso, Cinema's node based expression system, which makes it very flexible.

Anyway I'd welcome either version in XSI.

mocaw
11-02-2006, 07:53 PM
so i supose to do some modelling and animation and i am very interested about rendering(people says that mental ray in maya is going slower than this in xsi-it's thrue?)


I can't really say, but I have been involved in several threads with speed tests using several other renderers and XSI came out on top in terms of speed/quaility. Yes, faster than Vray often. These though are tests- and a lot has to do with the user. Still it showed me that mr is far from the "mental delay" that it is always called. This might be true for large studios in some cases...but for small users?

so in the future you think it will evolve ? no problem with it's marketing how i heard?

Well it HAS been evolving! This thread right now is kind of focused on some of the negatives- some are real, some based on taste. Many of the changes that were made from 4.x to 5.x might not have been show stopping features for some, but I use a lot of them all the time.

please somebody geave me some links for some gorgeos works maked in xsi!i realy didn't seen too many yet,unfortunately,eaven here on cgSociety!


Well, there are A LOT of great renders on cgtalk that are done with mr- even if XSI due to its smaller userbase doesn't get the lions share. While it isn't Maxwell (thankfully) I haven't seen a lot of rendering that can't be done in XSI on the side of GI gee-wiz factor. If you can get part of your head around MAX, or MAYAs mr, then you can fall in love with XSI's. I'm by no means a master (even a novice) but I find that I get good renders out of XSI for my needs- and they are FAST by my standards (but I'm an ex LWer). Keep in mind that as far as I know, there is a difference between what say the standard arch-viz user wants, the motion graphics user, the print user, and the large studio in terms of render speed, quality and flexability. On my level I like to think of XSI as a tool to make tools, and some of the other packages as just pre-made tools if that makes any sense!

I'm sure you've seen XSI mr anyway in many commericals and movies and just didn't realize it.

Sbowling
11-03-2006, 05:18 AM
what... ? :-)
I don't know how Thinking particles is in C4D. But Thinking particles (in Max) is after Houdini Particles by faaar the best System on the market! Mayas Partcles are for example not half as good as TP. And Maya's Particles are way better then XSI one's.... ;)

I found particles in C4d to be very difficult to use. It might just be me, but I'm much happier with the XSI particles interface. BTW, I said easier, not better. :D

Sbowling
11-03-2006, 05:20 AM
One thing it does have going for it is its seemless integration with Xpresso, Cinema's node based expression system, which makes it very flexible.


That's another thing I really didn't like in C4d.

ThE_JacO
11-03-2006, 10:13 AM
That's another thing I really didn't like in C4d.

this is getting a lil bit off hand :)
The thread has been remarkably civilized, which is sincerely a nice surprise; but one liners on a small detail of a post that had bigger context, might be getting it too OT.

It's absolutely natural for a thread like this to inolve other applications, especially since userbases cross-pollinate a lot, but lets not go down to commenting every single feature or compiling long lists of what these features are.

MJV's post was modestly stated and not particularly opinionated, lets all have the courtesy to spend some time when we reply to somebody to make it constructive, and maybe try to not spend so much time on details :)

P.S.
not singling out anybody, quoting the previous post was just a convenient way to attach to the thread. You're not in danger of overmoderation yet :p

Sbowling
11-03-2006, 10:33 AM
this is getting a lil bit off hand :)
The thread has been remarkably civilized, which is sincerely a nice surprise; but one liners on a small detail of a post that had bigger context, might be getting it too OT.


Just to explain my coment. We were talking about features/improvements people would like to see in XSI and my coment just meant I like the way these are done in XSI much better than C4d and would not like to see them changed in that way. XSI's particles can defintely use some improvements, but I found the way they were done in C4d to be... not so easy to understand and use. :D It could just be me though.:shrug:


P.S.
not singling out anybody, quoting the previous post was just a convenient way to attach to the thread. You're not in danger of overmoderation yet :p


I understand, but I also realized that my coment did resemble a jab at C4d that way I posted it. It definitely was not meant that way. If C4d had the CA features it has now, back when I bought it, I might still be using it.

MJV
11-03-2006, 02:45 PM
Just to explain my coment. We were talking about features/improvements people would like to see in XSI and my coment just meant I like the way these are done in XSI much better than C4d and would not like to see them changed in that way. XSI's particles can defintely use some improvements, but I found the way they were done in C4d to be... not so easy to understand and use. :D It could just be me though.:shrug:
I understand, but I also realized that my coment did resemble a jab at C4d that way I posted it. It definitely was not meant that way. If C4d had the CA features it has now, back when I bought it, I might still be using it.

I can understand not liking TP. TP and Xpresso are node based systems and not everyone likes or appreciates that just as not everyone likes node based material shader systems. Node based systems always require more work up front and their value in being ultimately more flexible isn't always immediately rewarding.

Bullit
11-04-2006, 04:03 PM
To ThomasLC:

I am sure that vray gives more control, as fprime and lightwave give none, but is it really much easier or faster than mr ?


Vray is fast to set up fast to render, and not overly dificult to understand.
The greater flexibility of Mentalray cames with added trouble complexity. If your job is to architecture vray is much easier/better than mentalray. Of course you can make a mentalray pipeline and after some tweaking you can have a good working base. But it isnt not so easy to reach that and you arent into a broadcast or cinema production where you have an expert for everything. If you are a 1 man team your mind isnt only focused into rendering. For that Vray is value property.


To TigerTiger:

so i supose to do some modelling and animation and i am very interested about rendering(people says that mental ray in maya is going slower than this in xsi-it's thrue?)


I only worked with Maya before they got Mentalray so i cant comment. In animation XSI is at front. For modeling it's still one of the leaders but there havent been any big improvement in that department lately. V6 is around the corner i suspect it will be released at Vista time.


so in the future you think it will evolve ? no problem with it's marketing how i heard?
and indeed more people are starting with xsi?(sory! too many questions)


Like people say here, the futur only God knows. But Softimage already had various owners and survived. 5-4 years ago was a sort of SGI going down with a too expensive product. They reacted, released XSI Foundation where you can get animation, modeling and render for little over $500.

Problems:They need to start to be more user friendly exposing Mentalray and other capabilities upfront, instead we rely today into CTRLstudios, T2S and many individuals that expose XSI power. If that didnt hapened XSI would not be so powerfull for comon user that dont have the resources of a company. That is also the reason i say that user base is expanding. With all things that CTRL, T2S, and many individuals released i feel that v5 is really v.5.5 and not v5.1.

please somebody geave me some links for some gorgeos works maked in xsi!i realy didn't seen too many yet,unfortunately,eaven here on cgSociety!

In www.xsibase.com (http://www.xsibase.com) there are many nice works. Check the forums.

OvidiusTiberius
11-05-2006, 06:36 PM
For modeling it's still one of the leaders but there havent been any big improvement in that department lately



so last time i see a "gorgeos" tutorial made by Aaron Sims and i thinked for moment that the Maya it's a little behind(i work in Maya for a while) and so it is...Softimage05 is really incredible at least in modelling as i see...so i have to learn it...in rest remain to see working with the program...if Dinamics and rigid and soft bodies are good enouth i really do not unerstand why ather users are not useing it instead of useing Maya or Max...anyway i think that for a real modeler(i am at base a sculptor) Maya should have for example a tool like "Proportional modelling"in xsi....but it have not..

I hope that the new release of xsi to be realy cool ...


thanks for answers...TGTG

yolao
12-03-2006, 12:59 AM
1. XSI used in film production. Yes, many shops out there use XSI for film, in addition to a variety of off the shelf and proprietary products. 2006 was huge with Barnyard and Happy Feet.


I just saw happy feet and i love it, visually it has very impresive sequences, for example i love the sequence with the whales.

Exactly in what part of the producction XSI was used?..animation?...rendering?..

thanks

ThE_JacO
12-03-2006, 10:46 AM
to my knowledge rigging to animation.
cached data was then moved to maya, lit there and pumped out through mayaman, and then rendered in Pixar's RenderMan

yolao
12-03-2006, 12:31 PM
to my knowledge rigging to animation.
cached data was then moved to maya, lit there and pumped out through mayaman, and then rendered in Pixar's RenderMan

sweet, thanks Raffaele, it seems that renderman is used for every single film this days. Hopely Renderman will be available in the future for XSI as well.
XSI really have to talk to everyone about this movie.

BTW, i really like the enviroments as well, do you know if they use VUE with XSI to make the enviroments?....

thanks

mr Bob
12-03-2006, 09:14 PM
yolao the killer whale sequence and the bob sleigh sequence were done by R&H and GKR using Maya and Houdini .The environments for the AL side of the film all maya and matt paintings ......


b

yolao
12-05-2006, 01:29 PM
yolao the killer whale sequence and the bob sleigh sequence were done by R&H and GKR using Maya and Houdini .The environments for the AL side of the film all maya and matt paintings ......


b

thanks for the info

janimatic
12-05-2006, 09:00 PM
yolao the killer whale sequence and the bob sleigh sequence were done by R&H and GKR using Maya and Houdini .The environments for the AL side of the film all maya and matt paintings ......


b
according to this
http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=125
How was XSI used in this production?
As I said, the character rigging and deformation system was all in XSI, along with all of the animation. XSI was also used to model all of the environment and props. We also used XSI for our motion selects, creating a single blended performance by hacking all the different takes together into a single seamless action.
It looks like XSI was not only used for anim but also environement modeling

Strob
02-10-2007, 03:47 PM
Having workin production with Max, Maya and even more with XSI, I have an idea about why XSI is now lagging behind.

Let's say first that I'm specialized in effect work. So I can't compare the rigging and character animation process. I heard a lot of people say that XSI has many adavantages for these, But for effect work, XSI sucks big time. The particle system is outdated slow and buggy. There is no fluids, no good volumetric shader like Afterburn. Many simple rendering tasks are a pain in the ass to tweak. And all the big plugins (Syflex, shave and haircut, real flow) are always lagging behind their counterpart for Maya. Also the doc in XSI is a mess, it is always difficult to find something. Since v5 XSI is also really unstable and crashing all the time. I'm still working with it, I know the core is powerful, but it seems like the need more programmers and more geniuses like Jos Stam to surpass maya. And now that Maya has such a huge user base, there are tons of mel script available everywhere, tutorials, books and forum users to help everyone to do everything while XSI still seems to be esoteric.

That was my personnal experience with this software, I hope it doesn't shock anyone and I hope XSI will change that fast because I think it is still possible. But for now I just want to convince my boss to let me use Maya or even Max instead of XSI for effect work.

mr Bob
02-10-2007, 11:21 PM
janimatic Did they ? hey lets not spilt hairs I saw one artist using xsi to adjust a landscape.The guys in the environement modeling department could use xsi if they wanted .... whenever I went past is was maya onscreen.

b

kimaldis
02-11-2007, 11:06 AM
let's iron out a couple of the huge misconceptions here.

Since v5 XSI is also really unstable and crashing all the time.

That's a sweeping statement and like most sweeping statements it's based on a personal observation that doesn't hold true across the spectrum. Most people don't have problems with xsi being unstable. In fact if you speak with them they'll tell you it's as stable as hell. it can get a little uppity sometimes on major new releases but to say that it's unsable and crashes all the time simply isn't true.

Also the doc in XSI is a mess, it is always difficult to find something.

again, I'd have to disgree with that. XSI documentation is actually pretty good right now.


Many simple rendering tasks are a pain in the ass to tweak.


Certainly no harder than mental ray for maya. In fact, XSI's integration of mental ray is way slicker, way more useful and way more reliable than Maya's.

RenisanceX
02-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Having workin production with Max, Maya and even more with XSI, I have an idea about why XSI is now lagging behind.

Let's say first that I'm specialized in effect work. So I can't compare the rigging and character animation process. I heard a lot of people say that XSI has many adavantages for these, But for effect work, XSI sucks big time. The particle system is outdated slow and buggy. There is no fluids, no good volumetric shader like Afterburn. Many simple rendering tasks are a pain in the ass to tweak. And all the big plugins (Syflex, shave and haircut, real flow) are always lagging behind their counterpart for Maya. Also the doc in XSI is a mess, it is always difficult to find something. Since v5 XSI is also really unstable and crashing all the time. I'm still working with it, I know the core is powerful, but it seems like the need more programmers and more geniuses like Jos Stam to surpass maya. And now that Maya has such a huge user base, there are tons of mel script available everywhere, tutorials, books and forum users to help everyone to do everything while XSI still seems to be esoteric.

That was my personnal experience with this software, I hope it doesn't shock anyone and I hope XSI will change that fast because I think it is still possible. But for now I just want to convince my boss to let me use Maya or even Max instead of XSI for effect work.


Some very valid and questionable points

Valid is that xsi does suck for FX work depending on how complex the shot is.

Questionable. Maya being more stable than xsi ??? Never!! even with the unstable v6 of xsi maya still crashes ten times more at home,work and school. Most of my maya comarades except this about maya like its the norm :rolleyes:.

Mental ray in maya vs xsi. I always hated the fact that mental ray in maya has always had more exposed shaders but speed and efficiency wise xsi can brag all the way to the bank i think.However at the end of the day mr is mr. Its our understanding that lets us down and maybe for argument sake the bridge built between the main app and the renderer

geniuses like Jos Stam to surpass maya

So are you saying the guys working at soft who are using alchemy, black, white and purple magic many of the dark arts of 6 aren't doing shit besides creating "minor" tools and innovations such as gator or face robot or rigging systems that cut down two weeks work into a simple 5 mins?

I think i see your point!

I also see that if they were two men standing up on the street with a barrel of oranges and one of the men were selling his brand of oranges while the other was giving his away, the one who was giving his away would spread his brand much further :shrug:

Maya rocks!!! in many cases but i can't say its a futuristic space ship

ps max 7 got hair...max 9 no syflex ...so lets just say its and FX experience issue for you n max also rocks

RenisanceX
02-11-2007, 12:59 PM
. Hopely Renderman will be available in the future for XSI as well.
XSI really have to talk to everyone about this movie.



yolao rendeman is available here is a bridge
http://sourceforge.net/projects/affogato

Chris-TC
02-11-2007, 06:34 PM
That was my personnal experience with this software, I hope it doesn't shock anyone and I hope XSI will change that fast because I think it is still possible.

It doesn't shock me. It merely makes me wonder whether I'm using a different XSI than you are.
Apart from the outdated particle system I really can't agree to any of your issues. Many rendering tasks are a pain? And then you bring up Maya as a comparison? Wow.

The same goes for stability and quality of documentation. Version 6 is a little unstable so far, but you talked about version 5, and that one is practically unsinkable.
The documentation makes it easy to find everything and explains even the last button in every bit of detail.

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