what format do you prefer for C4D documentation?

[FR33K]

answer honestly a paper book which lies before my keyboard :)

[MJV]

I don't want to actually have to be at a computer the first time I read about a new program or tool, so paper is nice to have in the beginning. After that initial introduction to the software I usually stick to searchable media and I think hyperlinks make html a way more powerful research tool than pdf's, which I have always found frustratingly slow to search and awkward to read and navigate. I much prefer html help, and having context sensitive help is the best thing of all.

[moka.studio]

I do not use the printed manuals at all, electronic is fine for me.
As far as PDF or Html, i do not have a preference as long as the documentation is well designed and easy to search through (this may give an advantage to html).
Agree with MJV that contextual help is nice to have.

[sjmcc]

I like the idea of the html based help system. Will have to try it and see if it works as advertised. I would like to both it and a paper manual. I still sometimes refer to my 8.5 manual just because I prefer reading through it than the pdf's we have in 9.6.

[marshalartist]

A choice of all three would be the perfect solution

[Erik Heyninck]

pdf because I can print it or have it printed as needed. In this case, Mocca3, layered managers and animation tools.

[jackb602]

With 41 replies to the poll, it seems that Cinema's new documentation format will leave 66% of Cinema users out in the cold.

While I definitely see the value of an HTML based help system, my first choice for learning about any app, and especially one as complex as Cinema, is printed documentation. Call me old-fashioned, but I tend to learn better when I can spend time sitting in front of a book. PDF or HTML based documentation is very handy when I need the answer to a specific question, but it is awkward to use when I want an overview of a certain aspect of Cinema.

With R8 we had printed manuals included with our purchase. With R9, we had the option to pay for printed manuals, which I happily did. And the PDF format meant I could always print out an addendum and have it bound. But leaving behind the PDF format and printed manuals eliminates all of these options.

I suspect the HTML system will consist of hundreds if not thousands of files to cover all of Cinema's features. Getting these into a printable format will be a hassle to say the least. I hope that Maxon will reconsider and at least continue to offer documentation in PDF format.

Jack

[soccerrprp]

My first choice is paper manual. Second, html based. Paper manual is always nice to have especially when one is busy in the WC and want more interesting reading than beauty magazines and the like...:D

Seriously, i'm old-fashioned as well, I guess.

[LucentDreams]

the online help has functionality you can't get with the other systems, so i think it s agod and vital addition now, but my vote still went to printed (though I'm content with pdf as Ic na print the parts I need) I'll always have a place for printed manuals, its how I learned cinema, saty with it on my lap for a whole summer 7 some odd years ago just before r6 came out.

[Mike Abbott]

Given the limited poll choice, I voted for context sensitive HTML - but I think it would be good to have the option of paper or pdf. We all have different learning styles, and I too sometimes reach for the book, as opposed to the others.

But the thing that I find really important, and that I hope Maxon have implemented, is the ability to add your own notes or additions to the help system. I find the manual is poor in many places so I like to add notes and additions - something I can do both in the paper version, and the pdf version. I hope I'll be able to do it in the new HTML version.


Mike A.

[3DBond]

Definitely printed manual, but I like have the electronic doc too.

[squidinc]

html searchable help every time.. I tend to read manuals while I'm at my computer,so If I see something cool I can try it out straight away :D ... I dont have the desk space for a printed manual

[jph]

Personally I never used any printed manual..., what I do like about a pdf solution is that it does have a start and an end..., and it is divided in chapters. In this way it sorta has a "perceivable body" which helps me navigating sometimes...

there is one company out there which does terrible with it´s html based help files..., adobe´s help files are totally useless, so if maxon comes up with someting simmilar, I would surely hate them!

Html is usefull once it is used right. there are a few things I like about FR2 one of them is the possibility to have conntext based help for commands (at least in the shader tree). instead of searching the comand in a help file one simply right clicks the command, and is taken to the spefic help item, very nice!

I am also using Rhino for nurbs modeling, and the beta version for rhino4 has in adition to their normal help file a tool called comandcontext, that thing just rocks! 'cause every command that is in use is being explained, not only in text, but also with a short animation showing wht it does! In adition one is able via hyperlinks to serch for simmilar commands.
THAT IS HOW IT OUGHT TO BE!
It helped to speed up my lerning curve quite a bit.

later Jan

[FR33K]

html searchable help every time.. I tend to read manuals while I'm at my computer,so If I see something cool I can try it out straight away :D ... I dont have the desk space for a printed manual then you need prolly a larger desk :P

sitting on the balcony, toilette or bathtub with a paper manual is real relaxed not this stress reading before the screen :D

[flingster]

well i bitched about manual situation last time and still feel same way about it...unimpressed...and unfortunately it looks even worst no pdf are you serious!

i'm all for that help system though..looks useful..but never a substitute imo.

[LemonNado]

A well maintained WIKI. And a HTML/Ajax based help system. Anything else is plain garbage. We are in the year 2000.... give the trees a break.
Rainer

[squidinc]

A well maintained WIKI. And a HTML/Ajax based help system. Anything else is plain garbage. We are in the year 2000.... give the trees a break.
Rainer

good point about the trees :)

and the wiki is a very good idea!

[nycL45]

Paper. I carry the manual(s) with me to pickup my kids (they always make me wait), to restaurants (local diner with "Class C" f & s), etc. Maxon, if you listen to your clientele, paper manuals, please?

[jackb602]

Just to be clear, I think HTML based help will be very useful, and I use the current PDF manuals frequently. What I don't like is that all other options have now been eliminated.

Once this HTML system is available, I'm going to look in to using Automator/Applescript to generate PDF files from them and combine these together into a few manuals.

Jack

[flingster]

last time you had to pay for the manual separately...is this still an available option though?

[nycL45]

Once this HTML system is available, I'm going to look in to using Automator/Applescript to generate PDF files from them and combine these together into a few manuals.

Jack

Good idea!

[3DBond]

It is a good point about the trees, but until eBooks are mainstream, at least it was an option to buy rather than killing trees with every copy sold!

It's like when I'd buy 5 licenses of Creative Suite for the studio I used to work in. I only need 1 manual/box/disk, just give me 5 serials! Can't do it unless you go through Adobe's once painful online store. :banghead:

[jackb602]

last time you had to pay for the manual separately...is this still an available option though?

According to this post (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3904636&postcount=134) there will be no more printed or PDF manuals. That was my motivation for starting the poll.

[flingster]

According to this post (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3904636&postcount=134) there will be no more printed or PDF manuals. That was my motivation for starting the poll.

well thats pants...

its just an opinion mind...i'd even go as far as to say its BIG pants!

a tradeoff which is not very good really...basically you have to have c4d installed in order to learn it or you have to work your way through the interface button by button to figure out how to use it! the interface mind that has prompted so much discussion...sounds to me like a front to sell cineversity seats! thats the cynic in me..last time seemed not good option but could understand some didn't want to pay for another set etc..but this time its just not a good decision. wiki/html/help systems are supplemental systems in my mind they complement things like physical manuals they don't remove the need for them or the choice...its a little misguided to think this is how training works.

[AdamT]

I don't want to actually have to be at a computer the first time I read about a new program or tool, so paper is nice to have in the beginning. After that initial introduction to the software I usually stick to searchable media and I think hyperlinks make html a way more powerful research tool than pdf's, which I have always found frustratingly slow to search and awkward to read and navigate. I much prefer html help, and having context sensitive help is the best thing of all.
Exactly the same here. I read through the manuals back-to-front years ago. Now they just take up shelf space.

[flingster]

hey sure guys all makes sense..but if you're a new users you're not gonna be able to do that..you're coming from the point of view of knowing how it all works at the moment...not from learning it afresh...fortunately you had that luxury others are not going to get that opportunity from what i read.

[AdamT]

That's true, and it's a shame.

[RickBarrett]

sounds to me like a front to sell cineversity seats!

I just want to make it clear that the documentation decision has nothing to do with Cineversity. Without throwing anyone under the bus, I'll just say that the people who make the decisions regarding documentation are in no way involved with those who manage Cineversity. I know you were probably joking flingster, but we take customer service pretty seriously.

I definitely see and understand everyone's desire for a printed manual - quite frankly I'd like one too. That said, I think that given a choice between the two I'd still opt for the new HTML help. It's a shame the help files aren't online yet and you all haven't had a chance to use it. It's really quite handy.

Unfortunately there's limits in resources, and a fully paginated printed manual would delay the release significantly. Speaking for MAXON USA, if we had the resources to do this, we would. We printed manuals for R9 and offerred them essentially at our cost, and since Cineversity was brought up it might be helpful to know that our only goal there is to cover the costs of creating and hosting the content.

I don't mean to stifle the discussion though, please continue. This helps those who make the decisions to make better ones in the future.

- Rick -

[belushy]

have bought all manuals in printed versions by now.
I don't see the point of not setting up a printed manual.
the refernce guide is a real help also for old users
cinevercity might be nice but involves a lot of time and has a high price at the beginning and might not be as usefull if you have a specific problem and want to find a way out.

sorry to see you making this choice

[Erik Heyninck]

Yes, Rick. Your words sound very balanced. Yet I don't see why it would be so difficult to create a pdf copy from those html files.

A printed manual would indeed cost a lot of money. Printed in black and white. From a pdf you can easily print what you need. In colour where needed. And in bw when it's mostly text.
So a simple pdf would help a lot. For everyone.

Html help can indeed be great, but it cannot replace a manual. Movie tutorials are great, but cannot replace a tutorials manual. Not the "what's new" kind of manual that's great for seasoned users, but something like the Rel7 tutorials manual that first gives a short intro and then attacks the basics from detailed projects.

The movs from rel9 were not that helpful as they were merely a summing up of what to enter in which box. I hope the new ones are 3DFluff quality (=the best).
But even those cannot replace a manual.

owg. I have spoken.

[ooo]

Yes I don't see either why a PDF isn't possible. That would help a lot. Apart from the usefullness of the html's, offline reading (away from my computer) is sometimes very handy. So a PDF would at least give the opportunity to print what I need, although a full printed manual would be much prefered.


odo

[RickBarrett]

Yet I don't see why it would be so difficult to create a pdf copy from those html files. Not the "what's new" kind of manual that's great for seasoned users, but something like the Rel7 tutorials manual that first gives a short intro and then attacks the basics from detailed projects.

Funny you mention the R7 tutorial manual because I did the layout on that one. If I remember right, that manual was about 400 pages, while the R10 documentation is thousands of pages. It was quite a job to layout the R7 tutorial manual - you won't find me volunteering to do the R10 one. Of course my layout standards may be too high. Anyone can barf even the HTML out on a page though - that wouldn't be worth the effort in my mind.

With the R9 reference, we (here in the US) were supplied with PDFs, so it was a simple matter to get them printed and bound. In this case, it's not so simple.

The movs from rel9 were not that helpful as they were merely a summing up of what to enter in which box. I hope the new ones are 3DFluff quality (=the best).
But even those cannot replace a manual.


Sorry to hear your disappointment with the R9 tuts. It's really difficult to cover the entire application like we do in these tutorials, rather than just specific features for a particular market. We're working hard on the new ones for R10 and they'll be quite extensive. Hopefully you'll find them much more helpful than those before.

- Rick -

[LucentDreams]

the html files are not paginated intelligently at all, its a mess for printing. I mean it has the ability right in it to print but each page has very little on it. imagine render active object, render region and Render view, all having separate pages when they could all fit on one easily.

Its be a really crappy pdf


Like Rick I want to emphasize that Cineversity and those that are documenting the app are totally unrelated. heack you guys saw my posts, and video tutorials ae hardly a replacement for manuals.


There will be a lot of conversion of the R9 videos to R10, so there will still be that Manual style colleciton of videos, but there will be far more projects and a lot of higher end instruction.

As for the printed tutorials, thats also separate, like with R8 and 9 there will be a printed quickstart guide, and again thats a very separate cookie from Cineversity.

[flingster]

woah guys it was an off hand kinda flippant remark i'm known to be prone to do sometimes..its the english sarcasm in me coming out...we all know how seriously maxon take customer service as borne out by past comments on this forum no less.
I would however beg that you make resources available for this...even a PDF would be a half way house...i just don't think html help is an adequate all encompassing learning tool you guys may feel it is...its complementary and not substitutional imo...go back to the accountant and kick his ass from me because its a fundamentally flawed decision if you want users to take learning your product seriously....cineversity is a great resource and a good thing maxon understook because it was needed at the end of the day...just as is the manual...change this decision please...its not often i'd plead on a forum but this is how i feel about this one..so please reconsider your decision maxon big wigs. thanks for listening.

[howzit]

i really HATE html based manuals... becuase it uses a search engine to find what you are looking for... and it never finds exactly what you are asking...
everyone has been through this.

[Jorge Arango]

Another opportunity for third parties. Guess we'll see more books about Cinema.


Jorge Arango

[RickBarrett]

go back to the accountant and kick his ass from me

I'm not sure if it was an accounting or overall management decision (the resources we're lacking are mostly human). Either way, you're in a better geographic position to deliver said ass kicking - although there's still a pesky channel in the way.

I've certainly made higher levels of management aware of this thread and your feelings. I'm sure both the US and UK offices would love to offer printed manuals if the resources become available (although quite frankly we lost money on the R9 manuals). Hopefully we're able to come up with something, or at least retool the process for future versions based on your feedback.

- Rick -

[Jorge Arango]

i really HATE html based manuals... becuase it uses a search engine to find what you are looking for... and it never finds exactly what you are asking...
everyone has been through this.

I find Shake's HTML help very good.


Jorge Arango

[flingster]

I'm not sure if it was an accounting or overall management decision (the resources we're lacking are mostly human). Either way, you're in a better geographic position to deliver said ass kicking - although there's still a pesky channel in the way.

I've certainly made higher levels of management aware of this thread and your feelings. I'm sure both the US and UK offices would love to offer printed manuals if the resources become available (although quite frankly we lost money on the R9 manuals). Hopefully we're able to come up with something, or at least retool the process for future versions based on your feedback.

- Rick -

the boots being laced up as we speak... ;-)

dunno think its something you can't take your eye off..its false economy on the part of whoever makes that decision. i don't get it at all...you make this great resource like cineversity and those great docs you had and then decide when its just showing the potential to get rid of it...we are fielding less basic user questions now that we ever have and yet more users are coming on board a sure sign its working currently...and in one fell sweep thats removed i can guarantee you're gonna see support calls increase...well guarantee is is a strong word..but wouldn't surprise me at all if you take an increasing amount of basic user questions...or people just get frustrated with the increasingly complex interface and depth of the program and just give up...not really the intension if anything you guys should be adding to areas like this, which was what i presumed the inline help system was supposed to be doing...as it is you're actually slimming it down..sorry to bang on about it but its nuts imo.

[RickBarrett]

you make this great resource like cineversity and those great docs you had and then decide when its just showing the potential to get rid of it...

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Cineversity isn't going anywhere. We're ramping up to provide some incredible content for R10. Again, different decision-makers.

- Rick -

[Kuroyume0161]

So much for the elusive "paperless office". ;)

Here we are in 2006 and people still want printed manuals - bulky and wasteful of resources (I guess trees grow on trees...). The only advantage to them is that you can have them sitting right there for quick reference (if you don't mind the head twitching motions) or can take it with you.

But that latter one is fast becoming a cop-out. With cheaper and cheaper laptops and other hand-held devices, you can take it with you - in digital format.

I don't want a 15000 page printed manual - and if you have looked recently, they are turning into voluminous encyclopediae. Good for your arms.

The PDF or HTML is 'paperless', weighs nothing, and can be searched, bookmarked, and copy/pasted. Click on a tabular content element and you are instantly at the right page.

Between PDF and HTML 'help', I prefer the latter ONLY if it is well done. In too many cases, they are not. HTML can become to 'linky' and you end up linking and searching and indexing and searching. I'll let you know what I thing of C4D's HTML help once I've had a chance to put it through its paces.

Robert

[LucentDreams]

i really HATE html based manuals... becuase it uses a search engine to find what you are looking for... and it never finds exactly what you are asking...
everyone has been through this.

well it has an accuracy slider to help you control how specific it looks for what you search which is nice, but honestly the real power in maxons is that you can right lcick on any menu, object, or AM settings and say show help, and it shows the documentation for that specific setting. Pretty hard to get that one wrong.

[joeski4d]

So will the term/expression "RTFM" now become obsolete? ;-)

I personally feel strongly that a printed version should be made available at cost, as well as a pdf AND context html. If the PDF version was created, you are halfway there at creating the other 2... Also, you can hyperlink PDF's, so why not have a context-sensitive PDF instead??

And on another note, for the tree-saving comments... you must realize that reading a manual on a 23" screen for 20-40+ hours also comes at a cost to the environment. These huge monitors use plenty of electricity and/or batteries which takes a toll on the environment and your eyes.

Overall, I'm really stoked for R10. I have a few issues with pricing, but overall am really excited. Thanks Maxon!

-Joe

[PresNevins]

Quickly-flip-through-able, highlight-able, memo-scribble-able, having the docs for something as really complex as C4D on paper is irreplaceable for me. That said, the printed docs from R8 were way too huge (read: heavy, in 400 volumes), so I don't actually want the "official" printed docs.

For R9 I printed all my PDFs 4-up onto A4 paper so it's quite densely packed in. I really like it that way - comfy! In a nice plastic book binding and with little paper tabs stuck on the edge for each chapter, I have a pair of very nice 1.5cm-thick manuals for C4D Core and then the modules. If PDFs exist, I can do that.

Context-sensitive help is great, and I'm sure I'll use it a lot. If it's nicely searchable I may even be able to look something up without having to futz with individual searches in the inevitable "addendum" manuals, which would be a godsend ("Did that feature come in in the 9.5 upgrade or the 9.6 update?" Thank god for Spotlight.)

But without a way to kick back and make little scribbly pencil doodles in the margins of a complete set of docs in my hand, it just won't be comfy.

If somebody (Maxon, or, y'know, "somebody") were to go through and reformat the HTML docs to be printable, then that would be a business opportunity, would it not?

Anyone can barf even the HTML out on a page though - that wouldn't be worth the effort in my mind.If the likely massive white space at the bottom of each HTML page can be excised, then by all means, barf away! :D

Pres

[soccerrprp]

Being old-fashioned and preferring the paper manual, saving trees is always something that I consider when asked or confronted with such issues. The truth of the matter is that if we as a society did more to conserve and in the case of paper, recycle, a lot more trees would be saved.

1. If maxon decides to reconsider the paper manual- USE recycled paper! CONSERVATION
2. Using recycled paper is cheaper! COST-EFFECTIVE

We are FAR from a paperless society. This reality has actually resulted in many more companies insisting on using recycled paper as part of their paper goods requirements. Couldn't Maxon explore this possibility?

And, btw, why not PDFs?

[Incarnadine]

Trees, we GOT trees up here. Want some?!
(I have always found a paper manual very handy.) My R8 manual still gets used when I am not at the computer or not in the mood for constant switching back and forth between cinema and the pdf.
The pdf is handy to take to work on my USB key drive to read in spare moments.

[jackb602]

I'm not sure if it was an accounting or overall management decision (the resources we're lacking are mostly human). Either way, you're in a better geographic position to deliver said ass kicking - although there's still a pesky channel in the way.

I've certainly made higher levels of management aware of this thread and your feelings. I'm sure both the US and UK offices would love to offer printed manuals if the resources become available (although quite frankly we lost money on the R9 manuals). Hopefully we're able to come up with something, or at least retool the process for future versions based on your feedback.

- Rick -

Thanks very much for letting the appropriate Maxon people know about this issue. From my point of view there are two options that will give the tree killing luddites (myself included) what they are looking for.

Producing PDF manuals lets us print what we want, how we want it. It also shifts the printing costs to the user. Furthermore, this might be kinder to the trees than manuals printed by Maxon because users would print them as needed, and Maxon wouldn't have boxes of unread manuals lying around.

If Maxon does choose to print manuals, then by all means price them to truly cover the costs of production.

And none of this is meant to take away from the HTML help system or R10 in general. It looks like a great release.

Jack

[Erik Heyninck]

If the html is not suited to be peedeeeffed, then it's a drama. The only alternative I've seen that works is ZBrush holding Crtl on tooltips to get a full explanation.
But this does not replace a manual.
It's about ok for those who are seasoned and know previous versions by heart. Knowing as good as nothing of rigging and animation, two domains that have undergone a big change, those html tips won't help me out.

If we have to wait for some company to have a book, it'll never replace the manual but give a personal version on how to use what.

Cineversity is no alternative either as a/ it's way too expensive b/ you have no guarantee to find what you're looking for and c/ the movies cannot be downloaded. I cannot be online all the time as the Internet connection is at home and not in the quietness and isolation of my studio. (not even a telephone there)

In short: I need and want a pdf. And I want it together with the DVD.

[Rantin Al]

In short: I need and want a pdf. And I want it together with the DVD.

Agreed.

A full user reference manual is essential. A minimum of a full pdf if the cost of a printed version is not viable.
The HTML version is ok for a quick "what's this" but if you don't know an item exists in the first place, how can you do a search for it? Regardless of how refine-able the search criteria is, I don't want to scurry around 5, 10 or however many possibilities to get the info. From my understanding so far, the HTML is within the application and in the interface. Sorry but this not an acceptable replacement for a User Reference. I want it such that I can refer to it independantly of the application.

With any application, I look through all documentation to get an overall idea of everything. When the occassion arises (pretty often), I refer to the relevant subject and any cross references that it brings up. I usually find some other feature, function or item along the way during this process and dig into that as well. This is my prefered method of learning any application.

I would always opt for a printed manual, but a PDF is the only acceptable option to me.

[nycL45]

My 12 and 10 year olds trudge off to school everyday with between 10 and 12 pounds of hardbound books and binders and will be doing so through high school. If e-books are such a great method to learn C4D, you would think by now, that our computer-savvy (required) children would need only a laptop for math, languages, science, etc. I believe, books are still used in college, available in libraries and used for office manuals. My point? Books are still a better (best?) method for learning an assigned or "for fun" subject.

And the tree issue? 1) Recycled paper, of course. 2) Trees are a renewable resource. 3) Paper from tree farm trees only.

[Joseppi]

Since the information (documentation) exists, it may be a matter of how it was created. A PDF is usually an output option from a traditional "printed book" layout... the layout of the pages is sent to a printing company, or exports as a PDF.

The problem may be be that once the data is entered into the HTML format, first, and only, it wouldn't exist in a form to make the PDF. That would have been a planning decision that's long past by this point. (Enter data in a traditional book format, then use that as a master to pull shorter HTML bits.)

One option that could bridge the gap of printed manuals is "Print on demand" which produces bound, traditional-looking books. That way Maxon USA doesn't have to estimate qtys., print, and sit on manuals. And it would save users who wanted printed manuals from 3-hole punching thousands of pages.

With Print-on-demand, users could just order the manual sets they wanted.

If the documentation was entered into a master layout it would be faster to full smaller sections than to re-assemble bits of information into a whole again. Maybe the data only exists as scattered html files now and it's too late.

Joe

[unseenthings]

(although quite frankly we lost money on the R9 manuals)
Especially with the prospect of *not* having printed manuals for R10, you ought to put those printed R9 manuals in the maxonshop at half price or something. Or heck, maybe even full price. I bet you'd sell some. It'd be better (financially) than just throwing them all out, anyway.

[prayas]

pdf for me please. I have no use for more manual crowding up my place.

reasons for the pdf. I can read them on my second screen and apply the changes on the other one. no switching back and for ever happen here again. i can print parts if i like to. cheap laser printer spitting toner on recycled paper if you like to. search through pdf files. this is possible.

html help would be also nice. maxon did a great job with the manuals. i only know the german ones but i suspect the other to be of the same quality. they even made me smile with the little tricks and comments. if they manage to get the html in the same quality all is going to be fine.

i love printed books but my point for everything nicely printed is that it should be made to stay. software manuals are not.

if there is a pdf manual there is always the chance for maxon to think about book on demand options. only print them if somebody orders one. so no need to print thousands of them.

P..:

[wuensch]

actually, the best help system is something like implemented in Z-Brush:
strg rollover a command, up pops a short explanation-- now then if you activate some other modifier you get an in-depth explanation with quicktutorials--- now if that included Vieos inside the html, it would be perfect and by far surpass the possibilities of books.

For a start, I still like printed manuals that i can read in bed--

but if given the choice of only one, i would take a well made html-help accessible from within the program.

Olli

[RickBarrett]

Especially with the prospect of *not* having printed manuals for R10, you ought to put those printed R9 manuals in the maxonshop at half price or something. Or heck, maybe even full price. I bet you'd sell some. It'd be better (financially) than just throwing them all out, anyway.

Oops, thought they were. They'll be up in the Clearance section of the US MaxonShop in just a few minutes. $5 apiece or $10 for the set.

[benytone]

vote for all, but only one vote :D ... okay -HTML
thanks to all



.

[flingster]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Cineversity isn't going anywhere. We're ramping up to provide some incredible content for R10. Again, different decision-makers.

- Rick -


ok to clarify what i mean't. to sum up...the manual is going not ciniversity.
learning c4d from scratch or coming into 3d arena from scratch you need to understand the concepts and methods used in not just maxon apps but also others..how many noobs walk in and know what you're talking about when you talk about fresnel or falloff let alone be able to search for it in a help system...you guys are assuming a lot of a new user. I still find myself hunting around for definitions of terminology.

when learning from scratch complementary methods can help flatten that steep learning curve...in the past peoples beef with c4d has always been there is not enough info/training/books on c4d. now maxon goes a long way to helping that with cineversity.."ok then we'll make the tuts" so to speak. Now we see the introduction of a cool new html help system moving us towards the zbrush/xsi type approaches which are all pretty good really. But then all of a sudden a decision is made to say right no longer printing and documentation or creating any structured documentation in the form of a pdf...yes i know an html help has structure but not in the sense an actual manual document does. i just don't get this thinking...if you guys had said...look what maxon has we have all these approaches to learning out quality products:
Manual
PDF Manual
inline HTML help system
Video training on CD
Ciniversity...
then most people would be impressed at say a siggraph stand...
then we are starting to see the developing and investment in its userbase and their knowledge of your product...long term this is an excellent idea...it gets you into learning facilities out there like schools/universities/and training houses because the material is already done for them half the work is done....then those pupils leave and buy seats/licenses for the companies they work for ultimately.

Explain to me how you ever can have in the future a Maxon Certified Professional when you don't even make a manual for your product...you've given it that much respect you decided let not bother with that, it take up a persons time to produce it...short termism at best...reckless at worst...how many quality products do you see without manuals...if maxon wants to continue to be percieved by its end users as an establishment that produces quality then this helps seal the deal in my mind...but cutting it then ruin their case.

html help and manuals are not the same thing at the end of the day they are not mutually exclusive...you can survive one without the other...but most would agree its better to have both.

so if any senior management decision maker should happen to stroll by this thread take some time out and reflect about the potential benefits of reintroducing and improving user education long term rather than hindering it...you'll gain more by having it than by not.

[ooo]

Very wise spoken Flingster! Your words cannot lead to another conclusion than that there should be a manual (be it in print or in PDF). I have no doubt anymore now that Maxon will provide it. They have no choice. With this knowledge in mind I will sleep well now :)

odo

[Per-Anders]

I have to admit that I disagree with you there flingster, because in order to know what those terms means you have to actively look them up (unless you read the whole manual through, which is heavy going, tutorial manuals i can see but not the actual technical manual). In that situation the HTML help system actually makes finding such things out many hundreds of times easier: you want to know what falloff is, you right click and get the help, voila an explanation of what falloff is, fresnel, the same. It's simply much quicker and easier. More than that these days I think most people have got their understanding of these concepts from the web rather than the manual, I certainly didn't learn about SSS from reading any book anywhere, nor about normal maps or any of those concepts, now that the manual is far closer to hand you could also expect people to make a bit more use of it, and not be totally lost as much, unable to find the reference for x, y or z.

I also think that because the HTML help system isn't active in the demo most people here are pre-emptively deciding they dislike it, just as in other threads without actually having tried it out. Now that may come from experience of very bad html help files where you have to find an index file and launch in a browser then there's limited and slow search functionality, the old ugly, too deeply nested, convoluted developer documents that still exist in some places, but really this isn't the same thing, HTML just denotes the file format or language used to layout the documents, if you've used a good HTML help system, such as XSI's you'll know what a boon it is and how superior it is to PDF as well as in many ways to hardcopy books.

[flingster]

I have to admit that I disagree with you there flingster, because in order to know what those terms means you have to actively look them up (unless you read the whole manual through, which is heavy going, tutorial manuals i can see but not the actual technical manual). In that situation the HTML help system actually makes finding such things out many hundreds of times easier: you want to know what falloff is, you right click and get the help, voila an explanation of what falloff is, fresnel, the same. It's simply much quicker and easier. More than that these days I think most people have got their understanding of these concepts from the web rather than the manual, I certainly didn't learn about SSS from reading any book anywhere, nor about normal maps or any of those concepts, now that the manual is far closer to hand you could also expect people to make a bit more use of it, and not be totally lost as much, unable to find the reference for x, y or z.

well the manual was always a good starting point sure you can research further which is possible with or without a manual nothing is stopping you...
take the section on configuration > the colour system this is not the sort of thing your going to stumble across with a search at least i wouldn't think so. take chapter 7 hypernurbs and attributes manager..or polygon object...cameras..lighting is one of the best examples personally when i started with c4d i went over this and over this and rendering sections....its the kind of flushing out of detail that helps with a manual...when you do a specific search you go to that narrow focussed area..granted often you can link off from that its just when you use a manual its used in a different way imo... i'm not saying context sensitive help isn't necessary never have..because i know if i want to know quickly what this or what an icon does i'm gonna be there trawling through it..its not about the merits of context sensitive help versus a manual...its about the merits of a manual and it has its own benefits complementary to help...they are used in different arenas and differing applications...say a manual you can take in on a plane, on a train, on a bus, in a park, in a library, in a study...whatever you can actually be away from a desk type setup in a more comfortable environment and learn at a pace not dictated by a frustrating problem you've encountered...eg how do i do this. its a different approach to learning one is a quick dip in and out approach...get what i need now...then other is more broad in scope seeing what could i do mulling over method and ways of achieving things moving back and forth with ideas without the restriction of work environment or pressure of achieving singular goal....i just think they complement each other and as i said before not something you want to be without either...sure its possible but you gain far more from having both...its not about duplication either...you can hack that old manual up and whack it into a context sensitive help system and you're never gonna have a manual you're gonna have a context sensitive help system populated with a hacked up manual...they bring so much in isolation. having a context sensitive help system in my mind doesn't negate the fact that a manual is needed... nothing prevents context sensitive help becoming zbrush like and the manual more readable...for some reason people have the impression the information has to be verbatim between the two it doesn't...sure it has to explain function the same but usages and application could be expanded in the manual and the help could provide scripted/macro type function tuts...we are to narrow in the approach to information and knowledge they should be providing. They are both about learning this product but they can be so much more...exercises and tutorials, testing and quizz type learning...they come from different angles of learning for me. learning c4d is not just a listing of icon descriptions there is so much potential to this whole subject granted i'm slightly off topic now.

[wuensch]

well the manual was always a good starting point sure you can research further which is possible with or without a manual nothing is stopping you...
take the section on configuration ...they come from different angles of learning for me. learning c4d is not just a listing of icon descriptions there is so much potential to this whole subject granted i'm slightly off topic now.

quoted for agreement--
I prefer html help, but i really love to take a manual into our Graden (which is not at our house and has no Computer), doze in the sun and see what interesting stuff I can stumble upon.

--and I am not even mentioning the "read-in-bathroom-when-youknowwhatImean-" here--

I possibly learned half my 3D knowledge there--:deal:

[sjmcc]

I can understand it not being cost effective for Maxon to supply huge printed manuals and could live with that decision. But please give us at least the pdf's. That gives user's the chance to print the stuff that they need. I do most of my manual research while I am not at my computer. Have managed to learn a great deal this way. Allow users some usable way to be able to do this.

[Incarnadine]

I do read the whole manual through. It is a huge compilation of interesting and wonderful stuff for me to eventually figure out and play with.

[Erik Heyninck]

On a very positive note: I downloaded C10 and the quickstart manual. Some scens in the latter come from earlier versions (9) but the intro text now again seems to have the level of the famous C7 tutorials manual. I have to read it through, but if it keeps the level of the start, it's very (!) good.

[Chadman]

I feel comfortable with the PDF's that Maxon have produced in the past so until l see there version of a HTML manual l will hold my reservation. Still l have a bit of a thing for the old paper manuals that are great to read in bed until you nod off and the manual slowly slides off your chest until it hits the floor.
Now l have read the PDFs on my laptop in bed but l tend to be more catious and on edge as the sound of my laptop sliding off my chest and hitting the floor after l have fallen asleep deep in thought about TP nodes would not be a pleasant sound.

Chad P :D

[Srek]

Flingster, i think you should realy try the help first before you go any deeper on this. I'm pretty sure it will surprise you in a very positive way.
We are currently working on finishing the help installers up so they should become available in the near future.

Cheers
Björn

[nycL45]

The cynic's summary:
1) 2 out of 3 respondents to this poll do not want an HTML-based only help system or the HTML-based system at all. (Many want a mixed manual/HTML or pdf/HTML solution.)

2) Although Maxon has been recognized for listening to its clients, replacing the printed manual and pdfs with an "HTML based help system" is a business plan decision made months or years ago, and being implemented per that plan. There is little chance Maxon will reverse their decision (and modify the business plan).

3) Since Maxon is also well known for keeping secrets regarding all matters C4D, it is unlikely there will be an official Maxon response to the poll or opinions expressed here.

4) For those who want hardcopies, give it up or get comfortable with spending time making, organizing and managing those hardcopies from the html. (For the 1/3 who want the "HTML based help system", spend the time playing with C4D.)

5) Bottom line: make friends with the inevitable – the "HTML based help system"

[nycL45]

Flingster, i think you should realy try the help first before you go any deeper on this. I'm pretty sure it will surprise you in a very positive way.
We are currently working on finishing the help installers up so they should become available in the near future.

Cheers
Björn

With all due respect Björn, no doubt the html help will be useful, but you are not addressing Flingster's points on optional methods of learning C4D when not sitting in front of a computer and how people learn. In fact, the html help system is an imposed "learn only while sitting in front of a computer" concept. And, for learning efficiency, two displays are recommended: one with C4D open and the other, the help system.

This is interesting: about 20± years ago, the computer/software companies promised the user unlimited possibilities and no constraints, blah, blah, blah. Now, the companies dictate how the user will function within the company's established parameters. My, my, how the computer/software industry has matured and the sheep are so well behaved.

[PresNevins]

I just don't like taking my laptop into the bathroom to read the help because my knees get all sweaty. In that situation at least, I really need paper. (I think we can all agree that it's important to have paper in the bathroom... :curious: )

[flingster]

Flingster, i think you should realy try the help first before you go any deeper on this. I'm pretty sure it will surprise you in a very positive way.
We are currently working on finishing the help installers up so they should become available in the near future.

Cheers
Björn

srek...i don't doubt i'll be happy with the help...its a great addition...but thats what it should be an addition to our learning resources. i can see you guys are pushed on this..hell its not often rick steps in and comments and reading his comments and others in the thread i can see some element of disappointment that the decision not to produce a manual was made. However I strongly feel this is not in the users interests...its not a decision that benefits the user in anyway....and i'd go further it doesn't benefit maxon long term this route of thought. mull over my comments not just on documentation but also education and reconsider it in everyones interest.

[Incarnadine]

To me, the HTML help files I have seen in the past are like a big box in which I have stuff. I cannot see into the box. I can only dip my arm and pull out something based on what I explicitly ask for. The problem I have always had with this approach is that I don't know what to ask for. Either because I don't know how it is named/stored or if it is even in the box.
This is why I read through the entire manual. I may not remember all the details but I remember that there is something on topic X and then I know where to hunt.
I am assuming that this one will be better, but I will still miss the paper (I love books) and pdf.

[Kuroyume0161]

I totally agree with you, Incarnadine. This is sort of what I was conveying with HTML help - it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. CodeWarrior's help system is useless to me, for instance. I use the MacOS C++ development and it has HTML help for everything (CW also compiles for Windows, Linux, embedded systems, among other things depending on what you have). If I wanted to know how to set up a project for an embedded controller on the Space Shuttle, great. I want to know MacOS C++ and how CW applies to that directly! ;)

And I love books - have several hundred in my library varying from Harry Potter, Shakespeare to Japanese dictionaries, Astrodynamics. One bookcase dedicated to computer-related topics. But for computer software - especially when the coverage can be so detailed - I'd rather a PDF. As others have noted, at least with a PDF one has the option to print it to hardcopy if they desire - or not.

Robert

[Incarnadine]

I think I have weeded my library down to about 1200 (18 shelves at average of 60 per + approx 240 hardcover/largeformat/art/photography/software)... so I believe it is safe to say I love books. (I haven't even counted textbooks BTW)

That said, I will certainly give that HTML a spin. Can it be separated from C4D so I can tinker through at lunch at work? If so is it expected to fit on a 2 Gb USB drive?

[Kuroyume0161]

I figure that I have about 500 or so books - but then I tend to cycle through them now and then. I've been known to give several boxes to libraries or sell them on occasion (sometimes regrettably, sometimes not). If I kept every book ever owned, it'd be in the thousands - where would I put them all? ;)

Good to know that reading is still alive in some corners of the universe (minus the Oval Office).

One would think that the HTML would be such that it could be copied for viewing elsewhere.

Robert

[Rabbitroo]

Where's the "Don't Care--Organization, Completness, Examples, Index, and Accuracy are more important" button. I think I've used virtually every system of documentation envisoned in the past 20 years and it's far more important that the creater of the content in the system is complete and accurate than the mechanism by which it is delivered.

-K

[dAfTiE]

Seeing as I haven't had a chance to work with the html help system yet,I have to go with what I saw in the cineversity video.
And from what I saw there,it looks way better than hardcopy or a pdf document.
Printed paper books...well,they suck.
Heavy,big,and it's slow to find stuff compared to an electronic manual.
And the ability to pull up the help for a command from inside the app sounds fantastic.

[andrasn]

To me, the HTML help files I have seen in the past are like a big box in which I have stuff. I cannot see into the box. I can only dip my arm and pull out something based on what I explicitly ask for. The problem I have always had with this approach is that I don't know what to ask for. Either because I don't know how it is named/stored or if it is even in the box.
This is why I read through the entire manual. I may not remember all the details but I remember that there is something on topic X and then I know where to hunt.


That's the point!!! :thumbsup:
HTML help files are like to have a huge dictionary. You can search anything but first you have to know the name of the thing, of the word you are looking for.... then you see a link to explain something better or an unknown word or concept...and you begin to jump from link to link and in five minutes you are far away from the original page. Yes, it can be fun, you can see lots of new things you didn't know before, but it is just very messy.

[nycL45]

That's the point!!! :thumbsup:
HTML help files are like to have a huge dictionary. You can search anything but first you have to know the name of the thing, of the word you are looking for.... then you see a link to explain something better or an unknown word or concept...and you begin to jump from link to link and in five minutes you are far away from the original page. Yes, it can be fun, you can see lots of new things you didn't know before, but it is just very messy.


Now try doing a search while straphanging or riding the commuter twenty miles into the burbs when there are no seats and you have and hour + to "see lots of new things you didn't know before"! I can turn on a printed manual anywhere, anytime there is light and a free moment. HTML will approach being equal to a printed manual when the html player can be stuck in a shirt pocket and viewed with a wearable display. There is a reason e-books flopped a few years back.

[andrasn]

Sorry, I didn't express myself well. My post was valid together with Incarnadine's previous post, I just agreed with him opposing the HTML system....:D


NycL45, I remember when I had to spend 1 hour on the bus to go to work every day, I could finish trilogies in a couple of weeks...:)

[flingster]

i don't think anybody will not like the html system really thats not the point its a good idea and by the looks of it well implemented its going to be an asset to every user...however this doesn't negate the fact we need a manual/reference guide despite maxons thoughts to the contrary...they each have their place...and are both needed.

[Rantin Al]

I have placed my order for R.10 and made a request for at least a pdf manual to be made available.
If everyone does the same we might get one.

Cheers, Alan.

[flingster]

I have placed my order for R.10 and made a request for at least a pdf manual to be made available.
If everyone does the same we might get one.

Cheers, Alan.

yup would appreciate that...thanks.
http://www.maxon.net/pages/support/suggestion_e.html

[Incarnadine]

I posted a request. (Thanks for the link)
One point of clarification, I am reserving judgement on the HTML help. Maxon has done such a good job on other stuff, I think it will probably be a cool tool for use. I will tinker before I decide.
It's just that I love books for a good cover to cover leisurely browse and I do read the manual like this. Pdf just isn't as handy as I have to be tied to a computer but i can live with it.

[nirrad]

.pdf

i want something i can hold and read when i'm anywhere.

[Primitiv]

I do not care for Printed manual anymore. I like to have the manual readily available on my computer. Also, it goes where your laptop goes.

A HTML-based file is a good idea, because it can be updated often. I would like to see it include user comments. This would be interesting...

[Primitiv]

I know tons of people who use their software without looking at their manuals. I know nobody who would read a manual on a software that they did not installed. Makes no sense at all.

As for Cineversity, it is a completely different matter. But for printed manual, when Mxon sells their software at the prices they ask, they should damn well include printed manuals.


well thats pants...

its just an opinion mind...i'd even go as far as to say its BIG pants!

a tradeoff which is not very good really...basically you have to have c4d installed in order to learn it or you have to work your way through the interface button by button to figure out how to use it! the interface mind that has prompted so much discussion...sounds to me like a front to sell cineversity seats! thats the cynic in me..last time seemed not good option but could understand some didn't want to pay for another set etc..but this time its just not a good decision. wiki/html/help systems are supplemental systems in my mind they complement things like physical manuals they don't remove the need for them or the choice...its a little misguided to think this is how training works.

[nycL45]

Sorry, I didn't express myself well. My post was valid together with Incarnadine's previous post, I just agreed with him opposing the HTML system....:D

Hey Andrasn, your post was fine! I obnoxiously piggy-backed your post, without your permission of course, to nudge the Maxon folks.

Edit: strike "needle"

[Knotian]

My preference is any documentation that can be downloaded / transferred / etc to a second computer. I have an older computer with all my pdf and text files on it and I'm using it all the time.

[flingster]

A HTML-based file is a good idea, because it can be updated often. I would like to see it include user comments. This would be interesting...

why is it that a pdf documentation can't be updated?

[flingster]

I know tons of people who use their software without looking at their manuals. I know nobody who would read a manual on a software that they did not installed. Makes no sense at all.

Neither do i what i was meaning to get across was the fact that you're reliant on sitting in front of your computer where c4d is installed...i don't for example have c4d installed at work..but would be nice to have it to read on my break at my desk...or even the pdf at work..yet i can't under this current system...i'm chained to learn via the computer its currently my only option.

[Kuroyume0161]

why is it that a pdf documentation can't be updated?

I'm thinking the same here myself. Updating PDF documentation does not take long - even at several hundred pages full of illustrations.

As others have noted, there is definitely a difference between 'HTML help' and PDF documentation. One is meant, obviously, as a help system. And that is where it should remain. The other is the full documentation - usually with detailed information, appendices, glossaries, tutorials. I don't think you can replace the latter with the former and expect people to accept it.

[Srek]

The CINEMA docmentation adds up to a few thousand printed pages now and exporting them to PDF takes a while as does downloading the resulting document. For each addition or change a new PDF needs to be created and downloaded. With a HTML help you cann add and change parts way easier and the data volume is much smaller.
Cheers
Björn

[Kuroyume0161]

The CINEMA docmentation adds up to a few thousand printed pages now and exporting them to PDF takes a while as does downloading the resulting document. For each addition or change a new PDF needs to be created and downloaded. With a HTML help you cann add and change parts way easier and the data volume is much smaller.
Cheers
Björn

Of course I was making an example. :)

True, but then there are those things - addenda (?). :) They make finding things a little more challenging - but not much.

HTML help can be updated more frequently, but it can't easily replace the PDF. Where are you going to put the tutorials? IOW, is everything in the manual going to be placed into the HTML help - everything?

And, unlike PDF, you can't 'search' for anything in the HTML pages unless you have a search engine attached to the HTML. Therein lies my point: HTML isn't a single document - it is a complex hierarchy of thousands of documents. Without a robust search feature, one must rely on very well constructed indices (page links) and cross-references. I have not seen one that I feel is that good to date. As I already exemplified, CodeWarrior's help is abyssmal (from my perspective anyway). When you search for something, you get thousands of results and have to weed through them for the particular one for which you are looking. MSDN help documentation isn't much better - but it is definitely better. I'll get results for C/C++/C#/VBScript/VB/etc. etc. etc., but I can at least pick the right one - it has a real search feature just like your SDK documentation supported through the Windows Help display.

Unless I missed something in the R10 demo, it's hard to tell how good this HTML help is since it doesn't appear to be there yet. If it is, can you tell me where it might be (currently, Help just opens an empty help window)? Then I'll let you know what I think... ;D

Robert

[acmepixel]

I cannot vote in this poll as there are no choices for my preference.

I prefer a printed manual but only if the color images are also printed in color. So far Maxon prints b/w manuals which have example images that are impossible to decifer without color. Yet the PDF is in color.

In which case I would prefer no printed manual as long as the PDF is in full color and at full Print Resolution.

Case in point; Pixologic Zbrush 2; the manual is in full color. Available for $30. Product ships with or without both Printed and PDF manuals.

[flingster]

The CINEMA docmentation adds up to a few thousand printed pages now and exporting them to PDF takes a while as does downloading the resulting document. For each addition or change a new PDF needs to be created and downloaded. With a HTML help you cann add and change parts way easier and the data volume is much smaller.
Cheers
Björn

The last thing the customer wants to hear from you guys is its hard to do or it takes time or we don't have the resource or bigger downloads...he doesn't generally care about these things they're not customer issues...he wants his needs fulfilling and the current no manual method doesn't do that! no amount of reasons or excuses will give us that srek...sorry to make it sound so harsh and youre the last guy i want to go off on one about this. simply put a good percentage of users want a physical document and if not that then a pdf alternative the reasons for the change we're not really interested in...its a customer need and as such should be treat like one. if the html help was there from day one and we were asking for a new manual then you might approach it more positively than i think you guys are taking it currently... why not take it as a request rather than a complaint... i'm not bothered in the perception but i'd hate to see you guys drag your feet on this...it stubborn for stubborn sake rather than based on user choice/request and needs.

[jimzepellin]

If it was to be an html document, then I would like there to be some work put in to make it really easy to use. Maybe a bit of Javascript to make things interesting. The ability to save bookmarks of where you have been would be good.
If it's just an html with scrolling text and nothing else then PDF for me.
I didn't vote on this as there is no explanation of how the final html manual will look like.

[benytone]

wow HTML documentation, very professional & (Control-F1: crazy nice)
thanks maxon :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
.

http://home.arcor.de/benytone/fr8.jpg
.

[Srek]

The last thing the customer wants to hear from you guys is its hard to do or it takes time or we don't have the resource or bigger downloads...he doesn't generally care about these things they're not customer issues...he wants his needs fulfilling and the current no manual method doesn't do that! no amount of reasons or excuses will give us that srek...sorry to make it sound so harsh and youre the last guy i want to go off on one about this. simply put a good percentage of users want a physical document and if not that then a pdf alternative the reasons for the change we're not really interested in...its a customer need and as such should be treat like one. if the html help was there from day one and we were asking for a new manual then you might approach it more positively than i think you guys are taking it currently... why not take it as a request rather than a complaint... i'm not bothered in the perception but i'd hate to see you guys drag your feet on this...it stubborn for stubborn sake rather than based on user choice/request and needs.
My post was about the advantages of HTML compared to PDF, not about electronic documentation compared to printed.
As for complaint vs. request, we are already very much aware of the request for printed manuals.

Cheers
Björn

[flingster]

My post was about the advantages of HTML compared to PDF, not about electronic documentation compared to printed.


well i guess i interpreted it wrong then because i read it as HTML is better for maxon as its quicker and smaller
...my bad.


EDIT: since I've posted this comment i'm not going to remove it as its out there...BUT on reflection think its a bit harsh srek...please excuse my tone of comment and accept my apology ...as you'll know by reading my previous comments documentation removal has made my blood boil which is not the best approach for putting comments across...please see earlier posts which best indicate my feelings on the subject. cheers.

[Kuroyume0161]

wow HTML documentation, very professional & (Control-F1: crazy nice)
thanks maxon :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Well, I take it that you are either a beta tester or the German version of the HTML documentation is available already - cause noone else has got it.

At least I see a Search feature is built in - thank you. :)

Robert

[benytone]

or the German version of the HTML documentation is available already - cause noone else has got it.
.

Robert

your suspicion is correct, but only one is the Winner => German version of the HTML documentation...



.

[macsupremacist]

.pdf

i want something i can hold and read when i'm anywhere.

Quoted for agreement. I also don't want to spend even more time in front of a bright computer screen when I don't need to, just to read a manual. For me anyways, it's much easier on the eyes reading from paper than an LCD. If Maxon still has the offer of printed manuals for $30 or so (I can't remember how much they are, but I got one for R9) I'm definitely getting one just because of that, even if it is in black and white again.

[benytone]

Quoted for agreement. I also don't want to spend even more time in front of a bright computer screen when I don't need to, just to read a manual. For me anyways, it's much easier on the eyes reading from paper than an LCD. If Maxon still has the offer of printed manuals for $30 or so (I can't remember how much they are, but I got one for R9) I'm definitely getting one just because of that, even if it is in black and white again.

that's right,
but HTML is very helpful
look over here: Download (http://home.arcor.de/benytone/helpD.rar) ... 2.3 mb


.

[Jorge Arango]

that's right,
but HTML is very helpful
look over here: Download (http://home.arcor.de/benytone/helpD.rar) ... 2.3 mb


.


Where do you install it after downloading?
Edit: I though that was the link for the HTML file. Where do you install the HTML file?

Jorge Arango

[nycL45]

that's right,
but HTML is very helpful
look over here: Download (http://home.arcor.de/benytone/helpD.rar) ... 2.3 mb


.


It seems to be a QuickTime video that is missing some software? Am I warm? QT7.1.3 cannot open it as is. What sw is missing?

[benytone]

Where do you install it after downloading?
Edit: I though that was the link for the HTML file. Where do you install the HTML file?

?
Help=>click install language to install HTML documentation
.
http://home.arcor.de/benytone/Sw3.JPG

It seems to be a QuickTime video that is missing some software? Am I warm? QT7.1.3 cannot open it as is. What sw is missing?
you need DIVX codec
:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
http://jetaudio.softonic.de/ie/4376
http://www.divx.com/


.

[Kuroyume0161]

that's right,
but HTML is very helpful
look over here: Download (http://home.arcor.de/benytone/helpD.rar) ... 2.3 mb


What language is this in (i.e.: is this German only, English only, or all available)? ;)

BTW: I hate rar's. The only thing that extracts most of them is, well, Rar - WinRar or whatever. Just what I need - a non-free archiver. I can do zips on both Windows and MacOS without any archiver (built-in). I can do sit on MacOS similarly (need StuffIt for Windows though).

[benytone]

more;
check out by kai: http://www.cineversity.com/series/index.asp?spid=20


.

[benytone]

What language is this in (i.e.: is this German only, English only, or all available)? ;)

BTW: I hate rar's. The only thing that extracts most of them is, well, Rar - WinRar or whatever. Just what I need - a non-free archiver. I can do zips on both Windows and MacOS without any archiver (built-in). I can do sit on MacOS similarly (need StuffIt for Windows though).



-german only :)

- download AVI (http://home.arcor.de/benytone/helpD.avi)


.

[Jorge Arango]

Help=>click install language to install HTML documentation
.



you need DIVX codec
:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
http://jetaudio.softonic.de/ie/4376
http://www.divx.com/


.


Thank you benytone, I don't understand german but now I know what the HTML help looks like. BTW, no HTML help for render settings (al least by right clicking in the render settings).

To me, HTML help is VERY useful because you have instant help, but the pdf (or printed) manual is also very important.

Jorge Arango

[nycL45]

Now to the important question: "Which format do you prefer when 1) the computer is off, 2) relaxing on the sofa and 3) lying in bed? HTML? PDF? or a printed manual?"

"Well, I do not turn off my computer – I send it to sleep by rubbing its tummy just to the left of the battery door latch. When I am relaxing on the sofa, the display lights the room with a soft ambient glow as it sits right next to me, against my leg, sharing its warmth. And in bed? Oh, in bed! Let me tell you, and I know you are not going to believe this..."




It's Friday.

[Jorge Arango]

Now to the important question: "Which format do you prefer when 1) the computer is off, 2) relaxing on the sofa and 3) lying in bed? HTML? PDF? or a printed manual?"



Another just as important question: Which format do you prefer when you're working and you get stuck with a problem that you need to solve NOW?

HTML for me in this case.

Printed in your case.

Jorge Arango

[nycL45]

Another just as important question: Which format do you prefer when you're working and you get stuck with a problem that you need to solve NOW?

HTML for me in this case.

Printed in your case.

Jorge Arango

Actually, I would be a happy C4D goober with either printed + html or printed + pdf.

[Lovas]

I'd prefer the usual PDf book - as it is IMHO the best compromise between the "linearity" of a printed manual (you know the feeling - you don't have to know the manual by heart, but you know (remember) the particular information is there, in that chapter...) and interactive search.

The html solution would lack the linearity - whenever I need something I'd have actually to SEARCH it using a search engine or to click on links? Maybe good for a total beginner. Sometimes it is better to go to a particular chapter using the index and then "turn" a couple of pages as one would do in a paper-based manual instead of using search or links.

I regret the decision by Maxon but I understand the need to change the format, as explained by Srek, above. I have no doubt that the time, saved by not having to create PDFs for every change would result in more time to work on the program code itself so it will improve even faster...

[Mylenium]

I don't mind HTML docs, but they way they are doen in R 10 leaves quite a bit to be desired:

a) Why does it use IE's ActiveX control on Windows? In times of trojans, viruses and phishing attack still mostly aimed at exploiting weaknesses in IE it's not understandable why you would impose this on users when they may not use IE at all.

b) Why is it so linear? There's almost no cross-linking between various pages, all navigation is done with the menu.

c) The stylesheet needs to be adjusted. Fixed font-sizes are probably okay for most cases, but indeed the longer you sit in front of the computer, the more tiring it gets with the small sizes chosen. Proportional font sizes would probably be much better (and not screww zoom functions of the browsers themselves).

Mylenium

[nycL45]

I have no doubt that the time, saved by not having to create PDFs for every change would result in more time to work on the program code itself so it will improve even faster...

Good tongue-in-cheek. ;) ;) Wink, wink, Nod, nod. Your "linearity" comment is spot on. Allow me to add that the manual's organization mirrors the software layout which helps to teach navigating within the app.

This change, which is not founded on any science that concludes html will accelerate learning C4D, French, how to make bratwurst or whatever, is intended to improve the company's balance sheet. In the business world, going to html can be viewed as 1) a way of raising prices through reduced services or 2) allowing Maxon to hold down or delay price increases. It is an internal business decision and we will never know the full reasoning.

A fact of life: Maxon is part of a conglomerate and as such, has as its number one goal "to make money". Second to that *might be* to keep and develop brand loyalty to facilitate the number one goal.

[Mylenium]

I have no doubt that the time, saved by not having to create PDFs for every change would result in more time to work on the program code itself so it will improve even faster...

Completely overlooked that, but now that nycL45 has said something, let me add my opinion and experiences. Writing docs is usually independent from developing the software itself (though of course doc writers closely interact with developers), so I don't see how coding itself would benefit. In addition, it makes little or no difference in which tool you create the docs. Even for the HTML version they use a CMS I suppose, which is nothing more than a database and the page templates. You can have the same for doing PDFs by using e.g. InDesign with a database, including all links and navigation. I also don't see how doing HTML help is probably faster or easier for them to manage - creating the actual HTML files from the database takes probably as long as generating the PDF pages and someone still needs to proof-read everything. The only real benefit for Maxon is that they don't need to take care of overhead needed to actually do a physical print, but that should not have caused them too much headscratching in the past, either. In that light it could mainly be seen as a way to safe/ make some extra bucks.

Mylenium

[LS Knight]

A printed manual is important to me. It's pretty hard to study the HTML while sitting at the park.


Lap Top? Yeah, I could buy one but I figure the printed manual should cost considerably less.

[Mylenium]

Lap Top? Yeah, I could buy one but I figure the printed manual should cost considerably less.

Yepp. The mere printing and binding cost should be somewhere around 7 to 12 Euros at best (10000 copies). If laptops were that cheap, it would be a no-brainer. ;o)

Mylenium

[Kuroyume0161]

Yepp. The mere printing and binding cost should be somewhere around 7 to 12 Euros at best (10000 copies). If laptops were that cheap, it would be a no-brainer. ;o)

Mylenium

The production of a PDF costs even less...

[ollle]

I'd prefer the usual PDf book - as it is IMHO the best compromise between the "linearity" of a printed manual (you know the feeling - you don't have to know the manual by heart, but you know (remember) the particular information is there, in that chapter...) and interactive search.

The html solution would lack the linearity -

No, the html help has the same linearity (ok, there are some exceptions) as the old pdf. So, if you know the old manual, you'll find the stuff in a similar chapter of the html-help.

[Incarnadine]

As soon as they release the help in english, I want it.

[PresNevins]

As soon as they release the help in english, I want it....and I want to make a PDF out of it. (Unless somebody who actually knows what they're doing wants to do it for me, hint hint...)

[Knotian]

We have had much discussion about this. My chief concern was using documentation on a second machine while I was working. I checked with Maxon and the help will be standard HTML files openable in any browser and (which I didn't think of) you can use the demo on another machine to access the help files.

[nycL45]

We have had much discussion about this. My chief concern was using documentation on a second machine while I was working. I checked with Maxon and the help will be standard HTML files openable in any browser and (which I didn't think of) you can use the demo on another machine to access the help files.

A followup thread to this one should be something like "How, When and Where Do You Use the HTML Help System?". IMHO, Knotian's two computers, one for C4D and one for the demo Help, is a good starter. It could be amusing.

[Incarnadine]

I want the help to be separable from the C4D app. This way I will be able to load it onto my usb drive and read through it at my leisure (work at lunch, etc.)

[Srek]

The help is in an own folder in the CINEMA directory so you can easily copy it to any other location and read the HTML files with any browser you like.
Currently there is no own directory page for this, so i recommend reading it in CINEMA or in the Demo.

Cheers
Björn

[mmhnemo]

When i first got C4D i also ordered the printed manuals.
Upon first opening the books i realised they were bound really bad and the pages would start to fall out while reading it for the first time.

So PDF is my favorite.
HTML Second

[grundgedanke]

The english html help system is now available for download:

http://www.maxon.net/pages/download/documentation_e.html

[ooo]

The english html help system is now available for download:

http://www.maxon.net/pages/download/documentation_e.html

Thanks!

Looking very good! Although I also want to have a real book, this is an excellent helpsystem. Well done!! :thumbsup:

odo

[unseenthings]

The english html help system is now available for download:

http://www.maxon.net/pages/download/documentation_e.html
I've never ever met an HTML help system I liked... this one might be the exception.

It works pretty well, and more importantly, the content seems to be well thought out and there seems to be a lot more stuff there than was in the R9 manual. There was plenty of stuff there, but more explanations and examples are always a good thing. I was hoping it wasn't just a "let's convert the existing content to html help and tack on stuff for R10" kind of thing (which, honestly, the quickstart looked like!) and doesn't seem to be in the few minutes I browsed through it. I don't currently have the immense recoil at the phrase "html help" that I did a week ago, and that's a good thing, too :)

[Incarnadine]

Thanks Srek, that is what I needed to know. appreciated.

Going to try and down it tonight (system has max users logged in atm).

[nautilussoftware]

I prefer a book to come with every module you order or upgrade you purchase. I also think that the software should have all documentation as pdf format. it's really a nudge to have all those html directories on a windows box for each html page. it's a housekeeping mess.

-peter
nautilussoftware.com

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