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Sbowling
10-05-2006, 01:43 AM
Hi,

I have some stuff that needs to be printed to film and I'm having trouble finding out what format would be best for printing to film. The guy who needs the files doesn't seem to know much about this and could only tell me 4k 35 mm. Hopefully someone here has experience in doing this.

Also, are there any places that run renderfarms for XSI? I may have need of a place like this if anyone knows of any.

Thanks.

mr Bob
10-05-2006, 02:14 AM
ht*p://www.dvdaust.com/film_formats.htm

take your pick.....

On a side note the production company should know what format they want, if they dont runaway now!

B

Studev
10-05-2006, 11:32 AM
Maybe :
4K Film
4096 px x 3112 px

Sbowling
10-06-2006, 06:27 AM
Actually, you guys responded the exact same way he did.:) I guess I wasn't clear here either. I need to know what file format I sould render out to. All my passes were rendered out as 32bit float images and I need to know what I should comp them together as for the printing to film. I asked my boss about this stuff over 6 months ago, but got busy on other things and it slipped my mind until yesterday when I got a call fromt the guy at the production company that is working on the film.

slebed
10-07-2006, 10:31 PM
I'm not a softimage user, but you should output to 10bit log cineon files.

Sbowling
10-10-2006, 04:59 AM
I'm not a softimage user, but you should output to 10bit log cineon files.

Thanks for the info. I'll work towards that until I hear back from these guys.

ThE_JacO
10-10-2006, 05:21 AM
I'm not a softimage user, but you should output to 10bit log cineon files.

output at 10bit log at rendering stage makes -NO- sense whatsoever.
most of the work is done in a different space, is internally run as floating by most, if not all, popular engines, and needs to be aided by display corrections that are burdening enough as it is, without having to take a format that's been shambled around to linearize it and then map it onto the 2D or cubic lut interface.

output != delivery.

output should be in a format that is usable and efficient for your pipeline, doubly so if the 3Doutput is going to end up into shake or some other compositing package(and 90% of the work that gets printed on film will).

file formats and colour spaces are no simple thing that can be encompassed by a single suggestion.

and even once you finally get to deliver to the di or the sotf it's not said log, film space, 10bit cineons will do the trick.

I've worked in shops big enough to have their own di, and I know davinci and spirit a bit, because when you're in at 4AM with 2 hrs to kill because the farm is in a gridlock, the most interesting chats you can get from the telecine guys very often. I would definitely say that any davinci op who's gonna DI before print would definitely NOT want 10bit log film space cineon. Try to run the DI equivalent of some emulsions that DI is often asked to emulate, or to simulate a bleach bypass at later stage, on one of those formats and see how your range gets flushed down a toilette.

These matters, if you intend for a cinema quality film out to reach print, normally require the efforts and choice of several people, and a -great- deal of experience.

Sbowling
10-10-2006, 09:29 AM
These matters, if you intend for a cinema quality film out to reach print, normally require the efforts and choice of several people, and a -great- deal of experience.

Well, I have ZERO film experience and am not ashamed to admit it. :D Unfortunately the people I work for don't know jack about film and had me design a logo for the film. There was even a point they were talking about editing the film in house :eek: and I don't even think we have anything that can output film rez. We talked them out of that quickly enough, but I had already designed the logo for the company and that's what they want to use. I asked over 6 months ago what they needed and it wasn't considered a big enough deal for anyone to be troubled with at the time. Now, they are finishing the film and want the logo right now. :shrug: Hopefully they will have someone available to do any final Color correction work on what I give them (they are in big trouble if they expect me to do anything like that). The funny part is that the guy I talked to from the production company working on the film didn't know what format they needed to get this out to film. I'm now waiting on someone from WB to get back to me. Overall this whole thing has been a big mess and I will be very happy when it's done. We are a medium/small advertising company that deals with television and really have no business dealing with film.


Oh, the render in being rendered as openEXR and what I really needed was what to have the final composition output to.

ThE_JacO
10-10-2006, 02:00 PM
can I ask you, when you lit and balanced the scene, what colour space you were in?
were you displaying, and eyeballing, range and response by looking at the picture on your monitor, without any sort of correction on top of it? (like not even a gamma)

normally you would have a lut, or at least some indications, coming from the facility that will do the printing, and you should readjust and compensate for that to see on monitor a represnetation similar to what the print will be.

if you didn't, then chances are that your image will be considerably bright, and might have several illegal colours in it. The extent of how bad or good this will look will soon be entirely in the hands of who does the DI, who will have to wrestle the image in the wrong space into submission, and hope that illegal colour won't cluster and blotch out large or very visible areas.

if they have to do this kind of work then you will probably want to deliver to them data in the rawest format and with the widest range possible, and hope they know what they're doing.

if it's openEXR, which might fit the bill, ask them if it's cool with them, and make sure at least a file reaches them to make sure they can read it.
openEXR, as managed by different applications etc. and any eventual optional features still isn't as safe as we would like it to be, and it's not 100% guaranteed they will be able to handle it correctly.

I've seen quite a few occasions where shake would barf on a file in, and even when it took it a file written top to bottom (which is the standard ordering in 90% of the cases) might result in a read and processing time 4x slower then the odd bottom to top that shake seems to handle so much better. So try to make sure asap that they can at least use your files.

slebed
10-10-2006, 05:28 PM
output at 10bit log at rendering stage makes -NO- sense whatsoever.
most of the work is done in a different space, is internally run as floating by most, if not all, popular engines, and needs to be aided by display corrections that are burdening enough as it is, without having to take a format that's been shambled around to linearize it and then map it onto the 2D or cubic lut interface.


I wasn't suggesting rendering out of your 3d app in cineon format, I was refering to the final deliverable. As for the rest of your comments, your 100% correct. Outputing to film is a tricky business. My company goes through film out tests, and we employ colorists and engineers to calibrate our monitors in our DI suite. Its not something you can just jump right into.

Does your client have a film lab they are working with? Can you talk to someone at the lab about shooting your cineon sequence to film?

Are your clients planning on doing a DI? If so, you can most likely give the cineon files directly to the company doing the DI, and they can handle everything for you.

Hope this helps

Sbowling
10-11-2006, 03:17 AM
Thanks for all the replies and help on this. I have not put the final comp together yet because I'm still rendering it out, so I haven't really thought about color correction yet. Around here, if it looks ok on tv it is ok. That is about the extent of the color correction. I've seen some of the stuff I've done get put into a show that ends up being way too bright and no one seems to notice or care when it would only take a minute in after effects to adjust it. Anyway, enough with the complaining.

I found out today that the logo is going to a DI who will take care of the color correction and they use "Baselight color correction systems and outputs from Arri Recorders." if that means anything to you guys. Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything to me. :shrug:

I'm going to try to make the logo look as good as possible on our computers and hopefully this will be good enough. It's most likely going to be comped together in afterFX 7 on a mac(if that makes a difference) or possibly in XSI's FXtree. As I said before, I have no film experience whatsoever, so this is all new to me. We do have a guy who went to film school, but he's out until Thursday, so I can't talk to him about this until then. Hopefully he will be of some help, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Well, since hearing back from Warner Brothers I've learned that they need the logo in several aspect ratios. Since I primarily work in TV, I'm lost as to how to convert my current film resolution images into the other aspect ratios. I need "1:33, 1:85, 1:66, and 2:35 aspect ratio logos in 2k and H.D" aspect ratios, so if anyone has any links or other info on how to convert to these different aspect ratios I would really appreciate it.

Edit: I found some problems because of some shortcuts I took to render this out faster and I need to render it out again. My first shot was at 4k (cine vistavision preset) and I'm not really sure that was right. This time I'm going to render at 2k. The problem here is that it seems 2k can mean several things and will change according to the aspect ratio. So, from some searching I've done it looks like standard 2k would be 2048x1536, which would be 1:33 (actually 1:333 according to XSI) to 1 aspect but this does not match any of the presets in XSI. Does this make a difference? Is there a specific aspect people usually work for when someone says 2k resolution. The first few people I talked to only said 2k resolution and it wasn't until I talked to the last person and specifically asked about aspect ratios that I was given the above list. Again, if anyone has any specific links that would clear up some of the confusion I would really appreciate this.

BTW, is there a better place I could be asking these questions since this is no longer really XSI specific?

Thanks again for the help. It is REALLY appreciated.

tarkovsky
10-11-2006, 11:05 AM
Don't know too much about this, but I think 1.33 is only used for TV. The presets in XSI fits the standards for film. Don't have a specific reference, but there is a lot of good material on this @ wikipedia. I think you would be able to do the conversion in the FXtree, but don't know if that's the best way to do it.
tark

Sbowling
10-12-2006, 12:48 AM
Thanks for the response Tarkovsky. 1:33 is the same as 4/3 aspect, but it's square pixels for film. I did a lot of cramming yesterday and have a slightly brighter outlook on things today. :thumbsup: Since Everything is square pixels and the edges of the screen are black, I basically just have to resize the logo to fit inside the film resolutions that I need, so things are a bit simpler than dealing with TV where you have to deal with non square pixel formats.

Lone Deranger
10-12-2006, 07:30 AM
Sbowling,

welcome to vfx for film! :bounce:
You'll generally find that a lot of the time vfx companies are asked to deliver their content in a 4:3 format with added info regarding the crop factor. The latter bit will allow vfx artists to compose their shots knowing what will actually make it on screen. The safe area if you will.
So eventhough all work is done on 4:3, it will later simply be cropped to the desired film format, be it 1:85, 2:35, etc.

Sbowling
10-12-2006, 07:51 AM
Sbowling,

welcome to vfx for film! :bounce:


Thanks! It's been... interesting. :D I love learning this stuff, but when you have to learn this and have it done LAST WEEK (literally) it's not so much fun to learn as you go. I guess I could now say that I'm officially holding up the production of a motion picture. Hmm, probably shouldn't put that on my resume. :eek:

mr Bob
10-13-2006, 11:22 AM
Im just gobsmacked your dealing with a firm who doesnt have a clue what they require ...leaving it to you ....sounds like a great job

b

Sbowling
10-14-2006, 11:20 AM
Im just gobsmacked your dealing with a firm who doesnt have a clue what they require ...leaving it to you ....sounds like a great job

b

You're not the only one. :) Long story short, Our biggest client got involved in a movie and wanted us to do some early work on it. For the kind of money we make off of him, he get's what he wants. I crated a logo for him and he want's it in the movie. As I said, what he wants, he gets.

The real problem though, is that I used a volume glow and it's taken two days of rendering across two machines (an X2 3800 and an X2 4200) to get about half way done with that pass at 2k resolution. That's longer than it's taken for all the other pases combined.

It's been a hell of a learning experience... Well, it's been hell AND a learning experience. :eek:

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