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UB2006
10-01-2006, 04:18 PM
Hi, I need to develop a richly detailed, normal mapped, temple like next gen real-time environment as part of my new reel. This are the normal map tests so far. Tools used are Zbrush, Photoshop and 3DS Max 8.0. Any feedback and suggestions appreciated:

A render to show maximum contained normal map detail:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/7710/corridor2testnmdiff1024kw9.jpg

Realtime display in the Max viewports:

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1372/corridortest2nmdiffph9.jpg

Normal maps only:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/502/corridortest2nmonlycp5.jpg

Diffuse maps only:

http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/4773/corridortest2diffonlyij1.jpg

Geometry only:

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9337/corridortest2wireframepn2.jpg

Thanks for looking. :)

Oink
10-01-2006, 04:21 PM
The things by themslef are really cool looking (i really like the diffuse) but those first images of everything together kills my eyes. Sensory overload or something :)

There´s to much detail for me to handle in there :o

WesleyTack
10-01-2006, 04:22 PM
I think you'll hate me for saying this, but i'm more impressed of the diffuse only shot than the rest :)

UB2006
10-01-2006, 06:01 PM
Hey, no problem. Feedback is what I'm after. :)

So you guys would prefer something more along these lines?
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3185/interior1cs7.jpg

Traditional vertex lit flat textured stuff?

The problem for me is that it's not really 'next gen'. Certainly all the Xbox 360 and PS3 titles I have seen in development are using normal maps on all surfaces of their worlds. What I am trying to show is just how much extra detail can be added visually than before, without needing any more geometry. Bear in mind that each of these maps is derived from a 1 million quad original. That represents a phenomenal amount of visual information. Much more than has ever been possible previously. I'm trying to exploit that to the full, so I guess a cedrtain amount of 'visual overload' is part of what I want to achieve.

LaughingBun
10-01-2006, 06:10 PM
i agree with what the other people are saying, but i understand your need to make it next gen so heres a few thinks i think you could improve.

The reason it is so busy on your eyes is because the normal levels have no contrast. The wall needs alot more subtle bump. Right now the bump and spec looks completly even, you need more sublty and cariation among the different parts. I also think you should model some some sort of ornaments to break up the geometry on the walls and cielings, Just alltile something to create real geometry to distract you from the fake.

RO
10-01-2006, 06:11 PM
that normal map looks way too forced imo. Like normal mapping for the sake of normals. Imo you could make it less intense still have some normals showing but not that sensory overload like said above. It is all about balance imo.



Look at the GOW and than look at DOOM3 normals. Which one looks better? I would say the GOW ones since you do not really see the normals all shiny and what I tend to call it oily. Doom3 normals are like what you have above which is way too much. I prefer a hint of a normal instead of literally seeing it. I think you texture work is really good but the normal breaks it I would cut the bump of that at least 50% or more just to have that hint.

Edit:

On the layout of the scene. Like said also above you need to put smaller details to break up the basic forms laid down. Add some trim works around the base where the pillar sits. Also add some light fixtures. Would be nice to have a library of sorts. Kind of feels like a rich structure. Some rugs also. pretty much fill it up with smaller details and give this place a reason to be. Right now the style is kind of going in many directions.

Schoende
10-01-2006, 06:22 PM
Maybe turning down the bump value of the normal map a bit will make it look much better? I think what bothers everyone with the normal map is that it adds so much shadow.... Makes the walls look unatural. Would love to see a render with lowered bump value ;).

hope this helped ;)

UB2006
10-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Cheers guys. So I only figured this technique of creating texture normals from displacement geometry a day or two ago so still trying to optimise the results, hence all comment is useful.

Here is another shot with the specularity removed and the normal amount backed off so as to be less 'in yer face' I am also adding attenuation to the light now which helps and backing it away from the surface much more. The square in the centre of the main panel is intended to be an alcove for a 3D ornament of some kind that I will add later. I've extruded that out for clarity. The repetition of the panels is because the model is still in its infant stage. I plan to add much more to it once I get the surfacing technique sorted out.

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8471/corridor3testnmdiff1024qx0.jpg

GradiusCancer
10-01-2006, 07:14 PM
All bump and no depth. As stated above, the diffuse alone reads better.

Your bump doesn't correlate to your diffuse (just looks like you ran the diffuse through nvidia's). The diffuse clearly shows the fish as a solid shape carved out above the background, but the bump reads as the fish are etched in. The diffuse should not have all that lighting information (highlights). The normal should handle that dynamically, but since they are trying to archive two different goals, the final product is an unreadable mess. I suggest recreating the normal piece by piece so that each one looks proper bump and depth. It shouldn't be too hard since it's all kaleidoscope.

The ceiling and upper trim appears to convey the right message of depth. Those areas look best.

UB2006
10-01-2006, 08:21 PM
All bump and no depth. As stated above, the diffuse alone reads better.

Your bump doesn't correlate to your diffuse (just looks like you ran the diffuse through nvidia's). The diffuse clearly shows the fish as a solid shape carved out above the background, but the bump reads as the fish are etched in. The diffuse should not have all that lighting information (highlights). The normal should handle that dynamically, but since they are trying to archive two different goals, the final product is an unreadable mess. I suggest recreating the normal piece by piece so that each one looks proper bump and depth. It shouldn't be too hard since it's all kaleidoscope.

The ceiling and upper trim appears to convey the right message of depth. Those areas look best.

Cheers. That's a very good point. Let me go and have a look more closely at what exactly is going on there....

LaughingBun
10-01-2006, 08:44 PM
looking alot better

UB2006
10-01-2006, 09:10 PM
looking alot better

Thanks. We'll get there. :) ZBrush seems to have read the bump map that the wall panel displacement was derived from back to front. :( Easy enough to fix, but I'm beginning to wonder about some of the specular highlights contained in the diffuse map itself. Because of the mirroring it looks 'wrong'. Again it's fixable in Photoshop, but I might just switch to something else that works better.

unknowngod430
10-01-2006, 11:30 PM
I personally say don't have a normal on the walls...I think it would look nicer that the walls are painted and the trim and celing is etched.

requiem2d
10-02-2006, 06:53 AM
Normal is looking much better now. Keep it up :)

Ghostscape
10-02-2006, 04:31 PM
Looking 100x better now. Your problem was that everything had the shiny specular highlights and the resulting image looked way too contrasty and plastic.

Ramseus
10-03-2006, 12:35 AM
Looking 100x better now. Your problem was that everything had the shiny specular highlights and the resulting image looked way too contrasty and plastic.
What he said.

Did you make this from scratch or what? Whatever way you made it, it looks great.

Schoende
10-04-2006, 05:21 AM
I like it. Now the normal map adds some detail and does not make the contrast look bad... as said I like it ;P. Now it even looks more like stone without the specs turned on ;). Good job

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