PDA

View Full Version : how to put the fine detail in your hard surface mesh

 konakus10-01-2006, 01:24 PMi really don't understand how those hardcore modeling put their detail in their complex mesh ..at first i thought they use split and extrude polygon to doing that but when i come back and start to do it ..it's nightmare ..i got a bunch of edges run along surface and after apply blin shader to chceck the reflection ..it's really bad looking mesh then i try bolean this is even worse ... so i think the solution for this is just creat and sit and place it ten combine it later ,,, but i really fell like there is something wrong when render it out ... so anyone ,,suggestion or good tutorial please ...
newellteapot
10-06-2006, 01:48 PM
well... it's a matter of cutting polys and merging, moving vertices and extruding, beveling etc. Avoid triangles and pentagons.

That's all you need to know, the rest is just practice, tears and blood (literally)
I'm joking, it's really just practice.

Sarotekung
10-06-2006, 07:27 PM

yes that's a real answer for that question .. but still wnat to know more on that .. for example how do we crete the nice edge to reflect the light beautifully ..i've tried bevel(maya) it work but not so well and have a problem with edge that i made from boolean

newellteapot
10-09-2006, 11:41 AM

yes that's a real answer for that question .. but still wnat to know more on that .. for example how do we crete the nice edge to reflect the light beautifully ..i've tried bevel(maya) it work but not so well and have a problem with edge that i made from boolean

Hi!
well, first of all I would avoid booleans, they seem to be good and easy but thay make things more complictaed, in my opinion.
For the reflection, consider this:
bevel is all right, but no real surface in the world is perfectly flat. Add some subdivisions and pull and push some vertices slightly, very delicatly, so to obtain an uneven surface, that will make the light affect the surface in a realistic way and you will obtain the effect you are looking for.

Also, bevel with some subdivision (that is like saying bevel mor ethan once) and apply a smooth operator on top. :)

Quicksilverpms
10-12-2006, 05:55 PM
It just takes time by extruding and pushing and pulling points. Keep in mind that you want to do your best to keep quads. Practice makes perfect.

itsallgoode9
11-13-2006, 12:57 AM
you don't really have to stick to the "don't make tris" rule. If you are smoothing in the end, it's generally a good idea, unless you really know what you're doing. Genereally tris are fine, infact, everything gets turned into tris at render time anyways. Teachers need to quit teaching this as a steadfast, end all rule, because much of the time it is not true.l

slebed
11-13-2006, 04:30 AM
you don't really have to stick to the "don't make tris" rule. If you are smoothing in the end, it's generally a good idea, unless you really know what you're doing. Genereally tris are fine, infact, everything gets turned into tris at render time anyways. Teachers need to quit teaching this as a steadfast, end all rule, because much of the time it is not true.l

I'll add to this by saying that quads increase the chance of creating non-planar polygons which will hurt you in the end when you render. Not everything needs to be modelled in quads, and modelling in quad is only usefull when your intention is to subd the model.

twindragon
11-24-2006, 06:17 AM
I have the same problem with adding details to a hard body surface. I've been trying to study wireframes of models to see what others have done. It would be easier to actually view the models in a 3d program but I don't think most modelers want to just give there models away for free lol. Ive been looking at vitaly bulgarovs models to see how he adds his details but sometimes I look at how he adds detail and to me it seems impossible. edges that don't have support and just float on the model it seems. I have an example of this. If anyone has an explanation that would be awesome.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/edgeexample.jpg

The very bottom circle has no edges on him..it is a small picture and its hard to see but I see no edges.

Stefan-Morrell
11-24-2006, 07:46 AM
....edges that don't have support and just float on the model it seems. I have an example of this. If anyone has an explanation that would be awesome.

floating geometry:thumbsup:
looks like the shaded view is normal mapped,what you see in the wireframe is the high res mesh the normal map is extracted from,
the indentations would be made using floating geometry(they would 'float' just above the surface of the rest of the model),this calculates just fine for the normal map.

http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtReference_CreatingModels

twindragon
11-24-2006, 08:10 AM
Here is the full image....so if the geometry was floating on top of another object how do you make it appear to be recessed within that object or is that only done with normal maps?

Also check out more of his stuff and his wire frames you can see he's added the detail right into the object for alot of his models. What if you weren't going to be creating a normal map would you just add more geometry sp that you can work with more detail? :shrug: bulgarov.com (http://www.bulgarov.com)

http://www.bulgarov.com/newweb/l_fear_powerarmor.jpg

urgaffel
11-24-2006, 09:16 AM
When you do floating geometry, all you have to worry about is the way your cage envelopes them. Since you use your lowpoly as the basis for the cage it should correctly interpret the floating things :) Simple example would be if you have a flat plane and then place some floating geometry above it, then move the projection cage above your floating geometry. When you render out your normal map, it should be as if the geometry was modeled.

twindragon
11-24-2006, 08:09 PM
If you want the indented details to blend in more with the rest of the normal map would you just blur the edges in photoshop? I did a test in xsi and it worked fairly nicely but it seemed like the indents had almost too hard of an edge.

urgaffel
11-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Yeah, you can blur the edges in photoshop if needed. Just remember to run the Nvidia filter set to Normalize after you're done to make sure you won't get any strange artifacts. It's also a good idea to do it after resizing a normalmap as I've noticed on a project I worked on since edges where the mirrored halves met displayed quite weird once checked in-game >_<

twindragon
11-27-2006, 02:30 AM
I did a test where I beveled the edges of the floating indented detail around its perimeter and it worked out nicely..I did the test on a flat plane and then on a sphere to see if it still worked and it worked nicely with that too.

urgaffel - thanks for the info about the normalize in photoshop it will help.

DCWarner
12-11-2006, 07:19 PM
Great thread, addressed some similar questions I had. Does anyone know of a similar tutorial for creating normal maps in Maya with floating geo? I've been searching and coming up with bupkis

DC

walbergstudios
12-20-2006, 11:09 PM
I believe what you are looking at is sub-d gemetry. Sort of a hybrid mix of polygons and nurbs with a lot of best benefits - easy translation of texture, smooth surfaces and fine control of edges.

Here is how it works: Start witha polygon models and modify>covert to sub-D. Then go into component mode and select an edge. In the subdivision surface menu next to the polygon menu you will find commands for crease edge-partial crease, full crease. Experiment and see how it rounds or sharpens the edge. You can do the same by extruding a polygon section and creasing the edges all around to give you more detail.

Another wat to add detail is with a bump or a displacement map. Bumps are a fast fake and if you are not too close, will work just fine,

Check out gnomon' school or Digital tutors for great training DVD's.

Happy modelling!

Daemos
12-25-2006, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the advice, I just wanted to reply and say it helps.

I always have trouble detailing simple work :S

Green-goblin
05-09-2007, 08:30 PM
This is an extremely interesting thread, I have similiar - Could anyone offer a workflow or tutorial (preferrably with images) to show how this is achieved in Maya, with floating geo and normal maps.

Alternatively If someone has any luck in finding a thread or tutorial that shows this I'm sure it would be appreciated by all!

thanks

twindragon
05-09-2007, 10:27 PM
Its actually pretty easy. I use xsi but I'm assuming Maya has a tool that works like the ultimapper in xsi where you can take a low poly model and extract the normal information from a hi res object. Heres a simple image I made..where there are floating bits of geometry on a sphere to give tiny details..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/floatinggeo.jpg

Green-goblin
05-12-2007, 09:40 AM
Hi twindragon - thanks for the advice, that does explain it, however I still have a few queries.

I now appreciate how this effect is achieved and understand that you would probably extract the high res information using 'Transfer maps' in Maya.

However if someone could cover the following it would be beneficial. (preferably in Maya).

- Having looked at the images taken from Bulgorov's model that you posted - how are the

recessed edges achieved. (see images)

- Also I read the 'creating models in Quake' link that Steffan-Morrell posted - (many thanks for this by the way!) http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtR..._CreatingModels

Towards the end of the article it suggests that the floating point objects are rendered out on separate passes.

Is this how it is generally achieved and then comp'ed over the high res mesh normal map in Photoshop?

If not - does anyone have any good examples or workflows for how the uvw mapping for the above is achieved?

Green-goblin
05-12-2007, 10:27 AM

Here are the ones I intended to display.

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir2646/1178965249_3634.jpg

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir2644/1178963006_7882.jpg

many thanks.

Green-goblin
06-10-2007, 12:45 PM
I've noticed that this thread is getting an awful lot of hits, however no one seems very forthcoming. I assume that lots would benefit from examples of work flows for how detailing Floating Point Geometry is achieved using hi res models etc.(.. my self included!)

Something that I am finding hard to wrap my head around is the uv'ing of said High detailed model to generate the normal map from. Is this projected - if so how?

If anyone can provide a good example of workflow for this it would be greatly appreciated. (Preferably in Maya- but hey I a’int fussy!!)

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Tweek777
08-01-2007, 10:56 AM
you don't have to UV the high-res geometry.

for now, i'll assume we know how to bake normalmaps from high res geometry.
(have a low res model, all UV'd, no overlapping UV's etc, and rendering a normalmap off your high res)

i'm writing this from a MAX point of view, so if it doesnt make sense, that's propably the reason.

normally, your high res mesh would envelop your low res mesh, and the low res mesh cage would envelop your high res mesh.
your high res mesh includes the floating geometry.

now, normalmaps only contain surface DIRECTION, no height information. this is the reason floating geometry works.

as long as the outline of your floating geometry is on "about" the same normal (similar sirface direction) it'll render the outline out in the same pink/purple colour, but the detail in the floating bits (surface direction) will get captured.

this has to be one of the most un-thought-out post ever, but i hope it makes sense.
this would be alot easier if i drw an image of it or something. oh well.

Revvels
08-08-2007, 09:54 AM
Excuse me, but the picture shown on page one:

http://www.bulgarov.com/newweb/l_fear_powerarmor.jpg

Definitely shows wires around the floating parts. This wouldn't be the case if he used a normal map, right? Might be terribly wrong as I'm new to normal mapping myself (just got into it thanks to Zbrush :P) to achieve floating geometry I would just tessalate the faces that need detailing, but then again I'm sort of a n00b and don't know the major consequences of +4 cornered polies (other than smooth screw-ups).

Cheers :)

ienrdna
08-15-2007, 01:31 PM
Definitely shows wires around the floating parts. This wouldn't be the case if he used a normal map, right?
Cheers :)

thats base cage for sub-d, not in game low poly

CGTalk Moderation
08-15-2007, 01:31 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.