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Pavlovich
09-29-2006, 04:15 PM
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3912&Itemid=2

Michael Denny, VP of Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studio [Europe], declares that digital distribution is the future of both the industry and of PlayStation platforms--and yes, that means lots of paid downloadable content.

while this is x-box live competition news...reading between the lines, does this mean that they're already saying blue-ray is obsolete? i seem to remember microsoft not wanting to get involved with next-gen format wars because "digital distribution was the future". ??

EnlightenedPixel
09-29-2006, 05:04 PM
Blueray is not obsolite as compared to the digital distribution:

#1 Any game you're downloading is subject to instant irradication by HD failure
#2 The ammount of information needed to fill a couple BlueRays would cripple even the 60 gig hard drive and the ammount to fill several DVD's as well.

Essentialy, you alwayse want a hard copy of the expensive stuff. Digital Distribution is good for smaller things, minigames, music, self destructing movies, webshows, or downloading software wile you wait for the physical copy to arive, but other than that, its too easy to lose everything if you never had a backup of it on a seaperate disc.

RuinedMessiah
09-29-2006, 06:14 PM
Agreed. After all, Sony is talking about reselling Playstation games digitally. This is something they've been talking about for a while. And even GTHD features downloadable contend as the sole source of income on this endeavor (seriously, Sony even said the hard copy of the game will sell for around cost meaning $5-$7). Does this mean we'll see Resistance as becoming obsolete due to digital distribution? Well, that will mean 25GBs of downloading and hard drive space for one game alone. Even Daid Jaffe is getting heavy into the smaller, casual game designs.

Digital Distribution is a bit part of the future, but it's not the only part. And the true impact of Digital Distribution, on the market at large, is still relatively small.

Neil
09-29-2006, 10:02 PM
Download a game that is "gigs" in size? Seems crazy. I remember how hard it was to get a simple 100mb patch for Counter-strike off of Steam. You'd have to wait atleast a week for the servers to lighten up.

RuinedMessiah
09-29-2006, 10:11 PM
or a 10MB patch during one of WOW's many, many, many downtimes....

DoubleSupercool
09-29-2006, 10:42 PM
I am kind of ho-hum about this. EXTRA digital content downloads is a great idea, ala Wipeout Pure. That is you get a fully function game with the regular amount of tracks and ships but more content is added later.

What I don't like is the idea of shipping a bare bones game and then being forced to pay to make it playable. The last interview I read with Sony re GT HD was that it would ship with something like 3-4 tracks and a few cars. To get the rest you have to buy them. To me, that is a major inconvenience and frankly, a bit of a slap in the face. It's like those weekly magazines you buy that ending up costing you an arm and a leg: "New, Rally Car Magazine!!! Each week learn about rally cars!!! We will also give you one piece of a cheap chinese RC car every week and you can build your own RC rally car, week by week. First issue is only $1.00. (subsequent issues are $10 in perpetuity. Total cost of toy car is $15,000).

As for downloading all the content, maybe in Sth Korea which is wired to the gills, but in Aus the infrastructure is not there (not that we are a make or break territory for Sony ;)

First things first, I think Sony has got to show that they can even get their online systems working. It seems to me that the original xbox Live was pretty succesfful while Sony's effort was very lacklustre. WIth the x360 Microsoft has had a year or so to iron out the bugs and is very focused on Live. How many Sony launch titles will have online play/content? Gamasutra seems to have more than a few articles on developers ripping out online play for the PS3.

Time will tell as competition in the games market is a good thing, but I learned long ago to take everything Sony says with a very large grain of salt. I am still waiting for my PS2 to launch nuclear missiles :(

RuinedMessiah
09-29-2006, 11:22 PM
You know GT HD is gonna be cheap, like reallly, really cheap, right?

In the case of GTHD (not that I'm going to buy it regardless), I can see the whole "full game stripped out" as viable since, the stripped out game is gonna run you less than $10 and you can buy as little or as much as you want. To me, it's almost a games individual little iTunes service. BUT, as I stated before, I'll never buy the core pack let alone the expansions so maybe I'm not the right person to ask. BUT, if they did something similar to a game like Twisted Metal, as in shipped the core pack for about $5 with a few cars and a few worlds, but with the option to buy more.... yeah, I'd be all over that.

I don't mind the partial games being shipped but only so long as they are not charging anywhere near full price.

Artbot
09-30-2006, 02:59 AM
Publishers are more concerned with controlling content distribution than than devising clever subscription/download schemes. The reason every publisher would love to go to the download-only model is that it eliminates the middlemen (retailers), and ratchets up control over their products (not to mention profits).

Forget about burning backups or loaning games to friends. They want to turn the games business into the same ugly monster they are trying to convert the music business into: building in expiration dates, initiating pay-per-play schemes, and generally controlling every aspect of "your" game through DRM. Don't believe me? Just wait....

DoubleSupercool
09-30-2006, 06:19 AM
You know GT HD is gonna be cheap, like reallly, really cheap, right?

In the case of GTHD (not that I'm going to buy it regardless), I can see the whole "full game stripped out" as viable since, the stripped out game is gonna run you less than $10 and you can buy as little or as much as you want. To me, it's almost a games individual little iTunes service. BUT, as I stated before, I'll never buy the core pack let alone the expansions so maybe I'm not the right person to ask. BUT, if they did something similar to a game like Twisted Metal, as in shipped the core pack for about $5 with a few cars and a few worlds, but with the option to buy more.... yeah, I'd be all over that.

I don't mind the partial games being shipped but only so long as they are not charging anywhere near full price.

So, what would be a fair price for content? $1/car? $2/track? How quickly do you think this will add up to be much more than a decent full priced title? Based on my GT3 garage, something like that would add up real quick. As I said, downloadable *additional* content is a great idea in my opinion. Being forced to buy the game piecemeal to make it function is not such a great idea in my opinion.

It's a fantastic idea from a developer/publisher POV, and I am sure it will also be great for consumers if done the right way.

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 07:26 AM
Well, granted... if you want to rebuild a library like GT4 where you have hundreds of cars and scores of tracks, yeah... it sucks. But didn't even Polyphony say consumers should look at GT HD as more of a GT4 Prologue Edition kind of thing?

Trust me, I can see where you're coming from in this manner but for me, I can't honestly say I really care too much. After all, it's GT. And you can buy as little or as much as you want. It's just like the Xbox 360. I have yet to buy any extra content packs because I don't really think the extra content has really been worth the money. But, as I stated before, if Twisted Metal 6 shipped largely stripped out but at a huge, huge discount and each additional character was $2-$3, new levels being $4, I may look into it.

In all honesty, if it meant the game actually released faster, I'd be willing to go that route. Well, on rare occasions. Insane am I? Perhaps. But if it's one thing I've noticed about the "next gen" is that it's taking it's sweet damn time getting here. Sony, Nintendo, and even Microsoft keep showing all this incredible stuff that's way down in the future and while it's impressive, what am I supposed to play in the meantime? Blazing Angels? The Outfit? Either justify these multi-hundred dollar machines in the short term or deliver SOMETHING equally impressive just to give us a taste of what's in the future.

In a way, GTHD serves that function since GT5 is a 2008 release. All of the high profile games keep being pushed back. I mean, I shouldn't have been suprised when Too Human got pushed back but that did drop the number of holiday season drops on 360 I was looking forward to down a a scant single game (Gears of War, what else?). PS3? Armored Core 4 dropped out of the launch window but.. Gundam stayed so I can't complain too much. Wii? This is the third straight Nintendo console to launch without a Mario game. Ironic because that was the one I was most excited about.

thoughtlesswhisper
09-30-2006, 10:29 AM
Bare bones games with upgradeable content? I agree with the guy who made a comparison to the RC week-by-week magazines.

the bare bones cars and tracks will obviously be the most boring cars/tracks and the exciting ones will be downloadable. And then obvioulsy people have varried tastes so you will find yourself often waiting for a server because you dont have the tracks that everyone is playing.

If i buy a game, i want the ful experience. No extra cost. And i enjoy knowing that everyone has the same thing. It just makes it all simpler. PGR3 has dl content for cars but i havnt even felt the slightest urge to purchase. You get the fastest car in the game, and everyone has the same tracks. There is no exclusion. It is only there if you have got some spare money and think 'why not, i wanna be different'.

GTHD seems like you will constantly have to purchase new bits n pieces just to still actually be able to play the game to some level of enjoyment. Not just the bare bones 3/4 tracks and cars which you know nobody likes and plays.

Well thats just my opinion. Im used to paying 40-50 for the full game experience. $7 or whatever it is, is a ridiculous price for a game and i dont see how the devs will be getting paid off of that. Which means they plan on definately recouping that money somehow....

quyeno
09-30-2006, 11:59 AM
i dont see what you idiots are moaning about. GT4HD will be like 5 or so to buy, and thats just to cover the cost of the disc and manual. The downloads won't that expensive, maybe a few dollars or pounds and its upto you to decide which cars you want to buy and which tracks. They're not forcing you buy the additional content, f'ck, for 5 you get a few tracks and good range of cars, thats pretty damn good value already. At least Sony aren't charging you the full price for GT4HD unlike say Blizzard. WIth WOW you have to pay full price for the damn game and also pay a monthly subscription to play online. That model sucks, if its an massively online game the install disc shouldn't cost you much at all as you WILL have to pay to play online.

thoughtlesswhisper
09-30-2006, 12:27 PM
i dont see what you idiots are moaning about. GT4HD will be like 5 or so to buy, and thats just to cover the cost of the disc and manual. The downloads won't that expensive, maybe a few dollars or pounds and its upto you to decide which cars you want to buy and which tracks.

Idiots is a bit strong isnt it? Not very constructive. Ok so $5 covers the cost of disc and manual. Who pays the artists and programmers? Not to mention the marketing HR departments etc... GT is a huuge game and production costs would be through the roof. Dont think that you wont be FORCED to pay more to enjoy the game.

How do you know the cost of the tracks/cars etc? And how it will be implemented. Do you honestly think you are going to get the full experience of a next gen game which has been in production for years for $5? You think they will make it easy for you to just keep those limited cars and tracks and never upgrade? That would be the dumbest move ever on there part as its almost like saying 'HERE. HAVE THIS GAME WE HAVE BEEN SLAVING OVER FOR YEARS FOR FREE. JUST PAY FOR THE DISC AND THE MANUAL. DONT DL OTHER THINGS IF YOU DONT WANT TO'

Maybe you should get out of 'Da Hood' and into the games industry as your avatar suggests. Dont call people idiots who obviously know what they are talking about.

quyeno
09-30-2006, 02:22 PM
GT4HD is not a true next gen game, its an interlude to GT5. GT4HD as its named is the GT4 engine with a higher poly count, it hasn't been in development for years. Development started weeks before E3. As mentioned in the Sony presentation at E3 GT4HD was a res'd up version of GT4, a port so to speak. The real next gen update, GT5 wont be out until late 2007 or 2008 apparently. My point about those guys moaning that its such a rip off, is that GT4 allows you to customise your experience with the course and car you want to drive. GT has a massive range of cars, how many of those cars do you play with? How many of the cars did you care to perfect your driving? I bet it wasn't every single car, everyone have their favourite cars, this approach with GT4HD allows you have the cars you want. When you consider how much XBL games are and the price point for Wii downloads, i think sony/polyphony will follow suit which means roughly 3-5 per download. Polyphony planned GT4 to be an online experience and they have IMO gone about it the right way, charging you for the upgrades that YOU want and also charging you a nominal fee for the disc. This is a far better model than other online only games, unlike WOW, a good game as it is, but charging the gamer full price for the game AND a monthly subscription to play online IMO is wrong. You play WOW for 6 months, the experince has already costed you about 90 (game + online subscription). If you pay GT4HD online, pay about 5 for the game, you can buy alot of extra assets for 85, which increases your experince online and also offline as well (unlike WOW).

And as for getting out of 'Da Hood' and getting into the game industry....I'm a world artist currently at EA UK Studios and was a world artist at Criterion Games working on Black. :)

thoughtlesswhisper
09-30-2006, 03:13 PM
GT4HD is not a true next gen game, its an interlude to GT5. GT4HD as its named is the GT4 engine with a higher poly count, it hasn't been in development for years. Development started weeks before E3. As mentioned in the Sony presentation at E3 GT4HD was a res'd up version of GT4, a port so to speak. The real next gen update, GT5 wont be out until late 2007 or 2008 apparently. My point about those guys moaning that its such a rip off, is that GT4 allows you to customise your experience with the course and car you want to drive. GT has a massive range of cars, how many of those cars do you play with? How many of the cars did you care to perfect your driving? I bet it wasn't every single car, everyone have their favourite cars, this approach with GT4HD allows you have the cars you. When you consider how much XBL games are and the price point for Wii downloads, i think sony/polyphony will follow suit which means roughly 3-5 per download. Polyphony planned GT4 to be an online experience and they have IMO gone about it the right way, charging you for the upgrades that YOU want and also charging you a nominal fee for the disc. This is a far better model than other online only games, unlike WOW, a good game as it is, but charging the gamer full price for the game AND a monthly subscription to play online IMO is wrong. You play WOW for 6 months, the experince has already costed you about 90 (game + online subscription). If you pay GT4HD online, pay about 5 for the game, you can buy alot of extra assets for 85, which increases your experince online and also offline as well (unlike WOW).

And as for getting out of 'Da Hood' and getting into the game industry....I'm a world artist currently at EA UK Studios and was a world artist at Criterion Games working on Black. :)

heh. lucky i didnt put my name under my avatar then! weve probly been bumping into eachother at Chertsey station. Dont want you coming over to me saying ' YOU TRYING TO CALL ME NUBNUB!'

I Compliance tested black for MS. Were both on the credits :)

P_T
09-30-2006, 03:33 PM
check out the tour around Polyphony studio, they got cot under the table, MREs and 'hotel'. :eek:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=13646

Might explain the price of the cars/tracks.

quyeno
09-30-2006, 03:43 PM
Man, no wonder their game is SO good...they're fooking fanantics! :) They're taking staying late at work to the next level.....damn nice studio though :)

P_T
09-30-2006, 03:45 PM
Man, no wonder their game is SO good...they're fooking fanantics! :) They're taking staying late at work to the next level.....damn nice studio though :)Stayin late? looks like they live there. :D I wonder how that kind of working condition affect their social life... if they have any that is...

quyeno
09-30-2006, 04:25 PM
I reckon they weren't asleep, they were locked up to prevent them calling out for help :P I hope they get well paid for their commitment :)

poly-phobic
09-30-2006, 05:12 PM
Stayin late? looks like they live there. :D I wonder how that kind of working condition affect their social life... if they have any that is...

i think this is their social life. :D
------------------------



thats pretty hardcore stuff i saw in that video. a 24/7 studio. i hope their getting paid what they deserve.
i wonder what other studios around japan looks like.

GT looks Great, no question on the gameplay.

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 05:15 PM
There seems to be some confusion as to just what GTHD really is. This is data gathered from various interviews.

GTHD is broken into two distinct parts. GTHD and GT Premium.

GTHD is the GT4 port in high def and online gameplay. This version ships with about 70 cars and 30 tracks (at last count from Sony) that have been ported directly from Gran Turismo 4. This is the only section that can go online and contrary to popular belief, GTHD is not expandable by micro transaction. Best way to consider this mode is a public beta of GT Online, which will pretty much last until GT5 ships. Hoepfully. Chances are good considering Sony still had the Twisted Metal Online servers up four months ago, when last I played and got super pwned (Seriously, I recognized many of the user names from my day one experience logging in. Have they REALLY been playing for that many years?).

Then there is the Premium mode. This is the offline mode that previews GT5 and what to expect (and considering the leap GT4 had over GT4 Prologue, I do expect something visually incredible, but playably uninteresting). This is the mode you can purchase additional cars and tracks in but you can only play them locally. So the idea of keeping up with the jones with online competition is pretty much moot with this mode. As stated before, you are not forced to pay in this mode, it would just be ever so nice if you did.

Which brings us to Thoughtlesswhispers comment about shipping at cost is a money pit to pay the artist and testers. This is a valid point, when you consider GTHD as a finished product, which it's not.

Let's put it this way. GT4 is only going to contiue making money for so long (seriously, 3+ million copies sold will only carry the efforts so far and I'm certain sales have dropped considerably) and GT5 is slated for 2008 release. That's a whole hell of a lot of time of funneling money into a project without seeing a dime returned until that point. But hey, if they could snag a few extra bucks from a devout community of fans to help finance the thing, then I do see the advantage. It really is a win/win situation. Polyphony gets a source of funding out onto the market for the price of a Jampack (and seriously, let's say you own a PS3 and sitting on a shelf is a $5 copy of GTHD.... who here wouldn't snag a copy? Even if you never plan to buy an additional pack, it's still priced at a point where it's rather hard to resist. And once you get it in, it's very likely your hardcore gaming community would at least TRY a download or two). Hardcore gamers get to preview a game a full 2 years before release for a very cheap price.

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 05:31 PM
Incidently, was I the only one who noticed these strange graphical glitches in one of the glamour shots? I scaled down for obvious reasons but the full shot is very visible at IGN and it only shows up in a couple shots.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c237/sheppyboy2000/gtglitches.jpg
As for problem A, I think it's a matter of alpha map dropoff. Which seems a fairly amatuerish mistake. Problem B? I'd be willing to but it's a manner of the backlighting being set to ambient wth no shadows cast. By all rights, that line should be darker, not lighter. At least based upon a similar line in the Saturn Sky. I haven't seen this Ferrari personally.

heavyness
09-30-2006, 05:59 PM
first off, GTHD/4/4.5/whatever isn't going to cost only $5-$10. it's a blu-ray disc, so you have to pay to press the disc, pay the royalties of blu-ray to sony, packaging, marketing, shipping, and don't forget the cut the stores get for selling. yes, those are all small things, but they add up. there is no way the game will ship for anything less then $30 and track[s]. someone has to pay for the game engine those devs stayed up all night and worked all those weekends to build. and the ai, and the physics...

oh, but wait, it's the same engine from GT3.... great! now we give studios excuses to recycle game engine and assets. not that it's a bad thing, but crappy games won't get any better if they keep recycling the same crap. and last i checked, the crappy games out weigh the good/fun games by a crap load.

also, most studios were thinking of raising the price of games to cover game development costs. so why would anyone want to release a stripped down version of their game and hope for micro payments to cover the rest of the cost? that's a gamble. what if everyone hates your game? might as well shut down the studio and pack it up because people aren't going to buy more levels for your game if the game sucks.

right now, about 60% of Xbox 360 gamers connect to Xbox Live. your missing 40% that will not be able to buy more levels, cars, skins, and what not for you $30 game. and don't think that number won't be around the same for PS3 and Wii. not everyone has a router in their house, or wireless, or even broadband. plus, even if they do, most parents aren't going to let their children buy random game assets off the PS3 network at random. [i]"Mom, i need you credit card number to buy a sawed-off shotgun from Jacob in Grand Theft Auto 5 : Amish Territory."



i think the correct way to go towards this model is the Halo 2/Half Life 2 approach. they made a complete game and sold if for the regular cost [$50].

-Bungie then added extra maps for download at a cost. the online mode in Halo 2 took off and they new enough players out there would buy additional maps. and it doesn't take a complete team working 60 hours a day to make another map. and if people don't have Xbox Live, or only liked the single player game, or didn't like it at all, it doesn't matter because they already payed full price for the game... Bungie got payed upfront.
-Valve released a full game and gave the option for you to follow along if you wanted to. at a small fee, you could extend the game, if you liked it. now, these episodes could of easily been Half Life 3 and sold for $59, but Valve broke in down into episodes and a smalled price. this way, the game engine is done and they can reuse a lot of game assets to extend the game. players won't feel cheated because they know this is just more HL2 and they signed up for more. and with the initial price of $50, Valve covers the development costs upfront.


take what you want from that, but i believe there are better ways to the micropayment method besides this GTHD method [which i believe is the way it is to test the waters].

P_T
09-30-2006, 06:00 PM
Here's the turntable video (http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=13600&type=mov&pl=game) of that ferrari.

They were on crunch time to showcase GTHD I think, if you watched the studio tour video, you'd be able to imagine how hardcore their crunch time can probably get.

quyeno
09-30-2006, 06:23 PM
RuinedMessiah - looks fine to me...but then again i'm a world artist :P I don't think the alpha thing is a big to be honest, cos you'll never notice at 60fps :) The lighting on the car is prob done in realtime and there are inevitably compromises.

That ferrari model looks so sweet, i wonder what the poly count is. I think its pretty cool what they done with the back ground, it looks like some sort of Quicktime VR with some modelled elements for parallax.

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 06:29 PM
For some reason, the white pixels on the turntable don't show up. I hate sim racing games but that IS a damn fine model.

first off, GTHD/4/4.5/whatever isn't going to cost only $5-$10. it's a blu-ray disc, so you have to pay to press the disc, pay the royalties of blu-ray to sony, packaging, marketing, shipping, and don't forget the cut the stores get for selling.

So... umm, Jampacks cost $30 as well? Not to mention the price of all those magazines that come with demo discs. I mean, hell, running off a disc can't be too expensive considering I seem to get demos ALL THE FRICKIN TIME from Sony. Several times, genres I have never bought or never showed interest in so it's like they just throw crap out all the time with zero attention paid to who actually wants it. And Sony would pay... themselves royalties? It's like pulling a five dollar bill out and back into your pocket.
"Here you go Sony, for pressing this disc."
"Why thank you, Sony."

I mean, seriously. The game engine is being worked on regardless for GT5s official release. This is work being done no matter how you look at it. Likewise, the model assets are being made regardless. Same for the tracks. And considering the physical costs of a Playstation 2 game is literally under $3, which is also the price stores pay for Jampacks, and BluRay is mere cents more expensive, I don't imagine the sudden increase in costs anytime soon.

Best way is to think of it like this. Apple spends time and money improving iTunes in terms of functionaility and services. And yet iTunes is free. Certainly there HAS to be a reason.

As for the whole Game Engine thing, people have been reusing game engines for years. Tweaking between titles. And last I checked, those same people end up making the number one selling game of pretty much any given year. I'm not going to defend GT here too much because, to me, it's rather too difficult to control initially, about as interesting to play as your average Microsoft Flight Simulator, and focuses heavy on Time Trials which I consider a bane of the racing game genre. So, yeah.

And second, you're complaining about recycled games? How come pretty much any new Xbox Live Arcade announcement is directly related to games I have already played before? At this point, Xbox Live Arcade is rapidly turning into a pay per view style Gametap. "Oh wow, online gameplay to a fifteen year old fighting game, this is certainly worth the $10." And for a company that's so hyped about talking on the "quality" of Xbox Live Arcade releases and their constant testing, I don't see them stopping Konami from squatting in a digital box, do you?

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 06:33 PM
RuinedMessiah - looks fine to me...but then again i'm a world artist :P I don't think the alpha thing is a big to be honest, cos you'll never notice at 60fps :) The lighting on the car is prob done in realtime and there are inevitably compromises.

You know me. Gotta bitch about something.:D As I said, only seems to show up in a couple of the glory shots. Prolly taken in "Photo mode" or something.

quyeno
09-30-2006, 07:15 PM
it just occured to me, the quality of that ferrari (drooool), resembles the quality of the cars that PGR and Test Drive pimped when the game was being developed, but their final game art was now where that quality (same goes for the environments). But with GT4HD, this is the actual quality of the ingame model. Definately a purchase...if i can my mits on a PS3 :)

heavyness
09-30-2006, 07:34 PM
in respones to RuinedMessiah...

-Jampacks are basically free because they are demos and just a big advertisement for the 4 demos and 10 video that are on the disc. comparing an actual game disc to a demo disc doesn't hold up. should we start comparing blank cd-r's to game disc? because i bought 50 blank cd-r's and recieved a $25 mail in rebate with it. so they're free... so PS3 games should be free too... right?

-Sony wouldn't pay themselves royalties, but other studios would pay. see, i was using GTHD4 as an example. just happens they are a Sony studio.

-iTunes is free. so is the shopping cart at your local Wal-Mart.

-yes, game engines are reused. but i also stated that this approach will encourage crappy studios to reuse crappy game engines and crappy assets.

-and your last statement is just bla bla bla... don't like the games, don't buy it. don't like the service, don't use it. it's free, there are free demos of EVERY game on the Arcade.

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 08:00 PM
You're looking at GTHD as a full game again. It's best to consider it for what it is. A demo. More importantly, a demo which can be expanded. The business model to to relase the client software for very, very cheap. Kind of like how Everquest started making the core software free for a while. The hopes is that many people would buy the expansion microtransactions. The kinds of people who would take advantage of such things are the same kind of people who would, likely, purchase around $10-$15 of content. So if you have the cost equating to $3 all you would need is one of five people to do those microtranactions to recover from the effort. If you don't get that, oh well, back to the drawing board.

It's an interesting concept for a business model and I don't really see how it's some grand evil ripoff. If anything, it's just an expansion on the "episodic content" speeches they made. And you are right, I can't see this being cost effective for anyone BUT Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo.

As for supporting crappy games that reuse engines.... well, can't say I happen to do that personally, but it's not like the market doesn't.

http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php
http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php?id=16
http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php?id=15

I should I even point at The Sims at this juncture?

If people would quite buying the engine rehashes and crappy sequel and movie tie-ins, they would reduce. But the hardcore gamers no longer rule the game market (did we ever, though?), the casuals do. And the casuals will support the half-assed efforts to infinity. Thankfully, there will always be hardcore gamer releases as well.

P_T
09-30-2006, 08:43 PM
If you guys think this content download is bad, what about Nintendo who basically is going to be making money off what essentially was/is a bunch of abandonwares. I wouldn't say 5 Euros or US$6 is exactly cheap for a NES games. I mean, how big can the download be?

RuinedMessiah
09-30-2006, 11:02 PM
I've said my piece about virtual console before. If they want $5 for 10 Yard Fight, they can blow me sideways. But I would gladly drop $10 on Earthbound.

EnlightenedPixel
09-30-2006, 11:32 PM
If you guys think this content download is bad, what about Nintendo who basically is going to be making money off what essentially was/is a bunch of abandonwares. I wouldn't say 5 Euros or US$6 is exactly cheap for a NES games. I mean, how big can the download be?

NES roms are down below 1 meg. In many cases 16, 64, 128, 0r 256k. So, talk about a huge ripoff. And considering how many games there are, there bound to make a few thousand off of the absolute nintendo fanatics. And apparently it seems like theyre cracking down on Rom trafficking because of the new disservice theyre offering, i mean, service.

heavyness
10-01-2006, 12:51 AM
And apparently it seems like theyre cracking down on Rom trafficking because of the new disservice theyre offering, i mean, service.

i know! paying for a games! geez nintendo, what a bunch off asses.

like said above, even $1 is to much for 10 Yard Fight... but the NES and SNES has some great RPGs that are worth $5-$10. once again, if you don't like it, don't use it, don't buy from it, but please come on the forums and complain about it.

EnlightenedPixel
10-01-2006, 03:24 AM
I love the idea that theyre offering up games people have never had a chance to play before, but I think we can both agree their pricing is outrageous. Thus why I called it a disservice.

DoubleSupercool
10-02-2006, 02:03 AM
I think a major difference here is that you don't have to purchase the old Nintendo games to actually play another game. They are completely self-contained games. If you want them, you buy them, if you don't buy them, fine. It's not like you get the new Zelda game, but only get the full content if you purchased Ocarina of Time from the download service.

As I have said, I think digital download has a lot of potential (for certain games), but I can also see it being abused. I do think, however, that if gamers are burned the backlash will be swift and brutal. Think about it . . . if you are banking on people downloading your content to make a profit or even breaking even and they don't do it . . . well, you have just shifted 500,000 units at $5-$10 a unit. Not so much with the goodness.

This is probably the main reason I am concerned. Sony (in my opinion) hasn't shown much regard for their consumers over the last few years. It's been "sit down, shut up and buy it, it's a Sony." PS3 is incredibly important for Sony as a whole and they are playing catch up with Microsoft in terms of online gaming, which is obviously a major market these days. They can't afford to screw it up.

LeeC
10-02-2006, 10:37 PM
One of the games sites (IGN I think it was) worked out that if you wanted the full set of content for GT3HD (sorry, was there a difference between 3 and 4 other than the pointless photo mode?) it would cost you $637... more than the PS3 itself.

From what I have seen of it up to now, if it costs more than 10 and doesn't come with all the content it's a rip off. What's the betting that they will let you import your GT4 garage for a one off price of $100 no matter how many cars you have in it.

You can bet your life that GT4HD has been on the cards ever since they pulled online from GT4. GT4 + online = 40, GT4HD (online included) = ???????

Digital Distribution? Pah!

For 50, if I don't get a disk and a box then I won't buy the game. That's my choice of course and I have no doubt that there will be hordes of people willing to throw money at Valve (or any other developer) for Episodic - drag the story out - doesn't this game engine look old now - game content.

thoughtlesswhisper
10-02-2006, 10:57 PM
One of the games sites (IGN I think it was) worked out that if you wanted the full set of content for GT3HD (sorry, was there a difference between 3 and 4 other than the pointless photo mode?) it would cost you $637... more than the PS3 itself.

From what I have seen of it up to now, if it costs more than 10 and doesn't come with all the content it's a rip off. What's the betting that they will let you import your GT4 garage for a one off price of $100 no matter how many cars you have in it.

You can bet your life that GT4HD has been on the cards ever since they pulled online from GT4. GT4 + online = 40, GT4HD (online included) = ???????

Digital Distribution? Pah!

For 50, if I don't get a disk and a box then I won't buy the game. That's my choice of course and I have no doubt that there will be hordes of people willing to throw money at Valve (or any other developer) for Episodic - drag the story out - doesn't this game engine look old now - game content.

My oh my. This is exactly what i feared. In fact it actually tops it and is even worse. Theyre banking on gaming addicts wanting it all. And of course some rich guys will definately do it without batting an eye lid. Notch up one more reason for me to opt out of ps3.....

This is just ludicrous and greedy.

This is my honest opinion. Ruined messiah stay away from me.

LeeC
10-02-2006, 11:20 PM
I thought I should post some reference quotes before anyone accuses me of fabricating those figures...

IGN quoting from Famitsu...

The microtransaction-focused game, Gran Turismo HD: Classic will be the online-focused entrant into the GT-series. In this game, players will (reportedly) start with no cars or courses available to them. Instead, they will need to purchase their stable of cars and courses to race on. The pricing reported in the Famitsu piece indicated that cars would cost between 50-100 yen ($0.43-$0.85) and courses between 200-500 yen ($1.71-$4.26). There are approximiately 750 cars and 50 tracks available for purchase in the GT: HD Classic. Let's do the math:

750 cars for $0.50-$1.00 (each) (Sony will round-up, don't you think?)
50 tracks for $1.50-$4.50 (each)
A complete copy of the game will cost gamers somewhere between $426.50 and $975, and that's without factoring in whatever Sony decides to charge for the menus (since that's all you'll get with GT HD: Classic).

and a link to the IGN article...

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733728p1.html

Anyone still think this is a good idea?

RuinedMessiah
10-03-2006, 12:35 AM
And yet this info contridicts info released by Sony in regards to the GT Online mode. It was my understanding, from Sony and NOT Famitsu, that the additional content would be via the premium mode. Thus, that spiffy ferrari they are throwing around. And considering Sony has confirmed GTHD will ship with a set number of cars and tracks, that once again contradicts the Famitsu article.

I think before I swing my vote one way or the other, more facts need to be confirmed. Especially considering the IGN article (but seriously, this is IGN we're talking about here. They're even worse than Penny Arcade on doomslinging).

On one hand, you have people saying it will ship completely empty and throw out the huge numbers to try and prove a point (besides, my roomate is a hardcore GT fan, has 100% on each game where glitches didn't prevent it, and even he's told me he never touches more than 20 cars in each version).

On the other hand, you have a large amount of info coming from official sources that shutter down the "We are being ****ed" stances.

At this point, there is far too much misinformation and exaggeration to even debate it anymore. This is going to have to go under the "wait and see" debates with PS3 like the November launch, online community, and graphical prowess.

heavyness
10-03-2006, 12:59 AM
i don't think we're debating over what GTHD comes with or without, but the concept of this micropayment system of having to buy the rest of the game, bit by bit.

LeeC
10-03-2006, 01:33 AM
i don't think we're debating over what GTHD comes with or without, but the concept of this micropayment system of having to buy the rest of the game, bit by bit.
True, it just seems a good reference as it is possibly taking micro-tranactions to a whole new level... assuming the info is true that is going round.

One of the biggest issues of contention is "is the content really additional, or is it original content kept out of the release and then charged for?". A lot of people are really annoyed about what seems to be content that should have been in the final game but is then released for additional cost.

I suppose in comparable terms, if you bought a movie DVD and then found out you had to connect to the internet to download additional chapters so you can watch the whole film, would you be happy? I know I wouldn't...

DoubleSupercool
10-03-2006, 01:48 AM
Exactly. I think the real issue is just what you will be paying for: addtional content or the content that is essentially the game as it should be.

GTHD is just an example at this point in time. As for what it ships with, I recall a recent Sony interview that mentioned a couple of tracks and a handful of cars, so the game would certainly be playable when you bought it.

How about a downloadable content system for Doom? The game would ship with minor baddies, but if you want the full experience you can buy more challenging enemies:


cue sound effects:

Kapow, Kapow! Zap, Boosh!, Blammo! Krakow! Ptooee! PLEASE INSERT $5.00 TO PLAY THE END OF LEVEL BOSS . . .

;)

PhilOsirus
10-03-2006, 03:04 AM
i don't think we're debating over what GTHD comes with or without, but the concept of this micropayment system of having to buy the rest of the game, bit by bit.

Well in this case you are not buying the rest of the game bit by bit, since there is no "rest of the game". You buy the cars you want to drive, the tracks you want to drive on, and then just play against other people who bought the cars they wanted. Add "PS3 achievements" or whatever it will be and you got what you would have used in the full game for cheaper. All in all I think the avarage player would spend no more than 20$ on the game total, and you don't have to pay an online fee (supposedly) to play against others. That's pretty much what I expect from that game considering it isn't a whole new title.

But to think that all games would follow in this direction is unlikely. If a game uses a new engine there is no reason to end up making less money than you could have with a full game. This kind of transaction will be used for Resident Evil titles for additional missions (think Ada's quest, but only downloadable). Don't expect RE5 to be under 50$ tho, even with downloadable scenarios, but a downloadable sequel using some of the same scenes, that is likely.

P_T
10-03-2006, 04:30 AM
You can't compare this to a movie DVD and Doom, each track is pretty much a self contained game. This is more like EA's booster packs for BF2 with new vehicles, weapons and maps.

People bought those booster packs, they paid monthly subscription to play WoW and guess what? They will buy GT's contents, specially when the price is that small, people will hardly think twice about buying the cars or tracks they want.

IGN talks about 750 cars but what they didn't mention is a lot of those cars are just variants of a particular model. Nissan Skyline is one car but then you have the GTS, GTS-T, GTR etc. Unless the gamer is clueless or rich, he/she will probably get only the top end variant, and maybe all the variants of a particular model he loves.

It's the same with the tracks. Gamers in Europe will probably buy tracks they know in the Europe like the Nurburgring or the Salzburgring before they buy other tracks. Japanese would buy Japan racecourses first etc.

I really don't think they'll make story related content downloadable unless they're goin for that episodic content style like HL2.

thoughtlesswhisper
10-03-2006, 06:31 AM
I cant believe people are trying to justify this. As if in any way shape or form this could turn out to be good. Or has any good sides to it. This is just another way for Sony to charge through the roof for something and rip people off......

P_T
10-03-2006, 12:15 PM
I cant believe people are trying to justify this. As if in any way shape or form this could turn out to be good. Or has any good sides to it. This is just another way for Sony to charge through the roof for something and rip people off......Not trying to justify it, I just can't believe people are singling them out for this when other companies have been doing similar or the same thing as them.

Take Test Drive Unlimited for example. How's Gran Turismo any different to them apart from Atari releasing their cars in packs of 6 or more? I wonder why noone bitch about that... oh I know... they're for the Xbox not PS3. :)

Then there's EA's booster packs for BF2 and Nintendo's Virtual Console and their abandonwares... oh right... they're not Sony either. :)

EnlightenedPixel
10-03-2006, 03:34 PM
Not trying to justify it, I just can't believe people are singling them out for this when other companies have been doing similar or the same thing as them.

Take Test Drive Unlimited for example. How's Gran Turismo any different to them apart from Atari releasing their cars in packs of 6 or more? I wonder why noone bitch about that... oh I know... they're for the Xbox not PS3. :)

Then there's EA's booster packs for BF2 and Nintendo's Virtual Console and their abandonwares... oh right... they're not Sony either. :)

Hm, Im noticing a pattern... If I understand you, Nintendo and Microsoft aren't being singled out, because they aren't Sony.

thoughtlesswhisper
10-03-2006, 09:14 PM
Not trying to justify it, I just can't believe people are singling them out for this when other companies have been doing similar or the same thing as them.

Take Test Drive Unlimited for example. How's Gran Turismo any different to them apart from Atari releasing their cars in packs of 6 or more? I wonder why noone bitch about that... oh I know... they're for the Xbox not PS3. :)

Then there's EA's booster packs for BF2 and Nintendo's Virtual Console and their abandonwares... oh right... they're not Sony either. :)

the difference? about 600 dollars.

BF booster pack is an upgrade, same as PC games have been doing for donkeys, like the doom3 remake and half life 2. Id hardly call them the same thing. They are cheap.

Virtual console for nintendo isnt ripping people off either. You pay a few pounds for an old game. a WHOLE game. not part of the experience.

Abandonwares? Why am i going to complain that Nintendo is bringing me the oppurtunity to play old games that i would have missed ordinarily?

None of your example are even close to comparible. Stop trying to flame me. For the record, well done, youve spotted that i dont perticularly like sony in the GAMES department. I dont like their strategy or business model for their console. Whenever i comment on Sony, i comment on the thread topic and list my pros and cons which are my opinion. i dont just come in and say 'Sony Suxz0rz Xbox pwns!!'

My opinions are educated and come with reasons. Dont hate someone for having a point of view. Seems like the sony fanboys in here cant ever handle a negative opinion. deal with it.

EDIT: something i forgot to mention but was mentioned at work today. This game leads to social class like segregation. With only the rich kids being able to own a good selection of all types/class of cars. Only kids with money can upgrade the new tracks etc... We dont all have dispensable incomes that cover frivolous things like game addons.

RuinedMessiah
10-03-2006, 09:27 PM
I here I thought I had heard it all, along comes Sony leading to segregation....

Thanks for the laugh, thoughtless.

thoughtlesswhisper
10-03-2006, 09:39 PM
I here I thought I had heard it all, along comes Sony leading to segregation....

Thanks for the laugh, thoughtless.

Fist off, note how i stated it was mentioned at work today. Not by me. Second, is it hard to believe that rich kids will have more tracks/cars than poorer kids? Iv got rich cousins. In this situation, they would hve got all the cars etc.. while i would only be able to buy the odd few. Everytime i go round i would feel like they have a better copy of the game. That would give my copy a feeling of inferiority which i could do without.

Anyway, if you just wana take the piss go for it. Like i said, i try to make points. Not piss about and ignore the subject.

RuinedMessiah
10-03-2006, 09:53 PM
"fist off," I find it hard to believe kids play Gran Turismo to begin with. Of all the kids I know, only one of them gets into games with any depth. For most children, games like Gran Turismo are rather bland and uninteresting. For me as well, for that matter (and yet I'll spend hours in Disgaea 2... huh).

Second, it does seem like a bit of a stretch. What about 360? What about the poor kid who can't buy all the costumes for her Kameo character that her friend has? Poor kids versus rich kids isn't exactly new. And, incidently, the hell is a poor kid doing with a $400 or $600 console to begin with? Wouldn't they just NOW be looking to upgrade into the world of PS2 once that magic $100 price point hits?

Third, to even bring this into a concept of social class segregation takes the same kind of pot induced thought process as "what if the universe is just a dream" and "what if your skin.. was like rock?!?" It's not a deep conversation, it's just a pretentious drug induced attempt at "deep." The sole basis for the arguement directly defies the second point.

Fourth, your average gamer is now a 25 year old male. Kids have fell out of the video game ruling class sometime during the 16 bit wars and even Sega could see this. Yes, it's still a market but no, it's not a market ruler. Kids aren't going to have the money for PS3, or 360 for that matter. Likewise, kids won't have the credit card necessary to purchase content packs. The kids equation on content downloads is about as viable in this market as they are in iTunes. aka, not very.

quyeno
10-03-2006, 10:52 PM
messiah - well put dude.

I really don't understand why poeple get so uptight about a company's buisness strategy. All these 360 fan boys have probably dissed MS software in the past, yet now they think MS is king. If any company has un-moral business strategies, i think MS is probably the biggest culprit. Sony bashing, PS3 bashing seems a fad these days, i wonder who's next :)

RuinedMessiah
10-03-2006, 11:09 PM
Sony bashing isn't exactly the new fad, man. It's been around forever. Hell, I used to do it.

Playstation got introduced and my first rants were about how "Sony didn't know dick about gaming... they made Hook on NES!" I held out for N64 and all the promised RPGs. Resisted the console as tons of RPGs dropped there. And then the first RPG dropped, Quest 64. Thankfully, at the store I worked at, at the time, had a return to stock on a Playstation that was involved in a shoplifting attempt (when they take people to court, they have to keep the stock from being sold so it could be used as evidence). because it was a SCPH-1001 series and Sony was up to SCPH-5501, the playstation in the computer rang up at $50. So I snagged it, Xenogears, FFVII, Beyond the Beyond, Resident Evil, and Philosoma for a little under $150 total.

Overnight, I became a multiconsole gamer. But even though I had to swallow my pride on the Sony bashing, it's been a major trend on forums since long before the PSX even shipped.

DoubleSupercool
10-03-2006, 11:40 PM
No one was "bashing Sony" until some people cried about how they though Sony was being singled out. Let's refresh: the topic is "PS3's Digital Distribution Future". GTHD was being used as an example and the discussion had moved on to digital content downloads as a concept, whether used by Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo.

Some interesting points were being made and then it started to degenerate into M$$$$ suzzzorx teh big 1 and Sony suxxxzzzors teh 3v3n biggah 1.

I think people should have valid concerns about digital content distribution. It has the potential to really help games or really hamper them. Sony doesn't really have any track record in this kind of thing to the best of my knowledge, so it will be interesting to see how they implement it.

LeeC
10-04-2006, 12:33 AM
Take Test Drive Unlimited for example. How's Gran Turismo any different to them apart from Atari releasing their cars in packs of 6 or more? I wonder why noone bitch about that... oh I know... they're for the Xbox not PS3. :)
I haven't actually got TDU to comment but you have I suspect... does the online aspect come with no cars or tracks, or does it come with the standard 1000 miles of road and a full set of cars with "additional" cars to buy later? I.e. can you play online, out of the box, with no additional purchases?

I will however concede your "bitching" comment if you can show me a game for the 360 that has a potential cost of over $600 to get the full game content... on top of the initial purchase price that is, like GTHD.

Regardless of who buys what and for how much, the fact is that to get the "full game", it will cost you more than the machine you are playing the game on. Ignoring the "Fanboy" comments, that is quite simply unacceptable, from any company.

I think you will find though, that if BizarreCreations released their PGR3 DLC in just the same way, instead of the additional *FREE* downloads which give the player extra game modes, enhancements and some cars, then the 360 owners would indeed be "bitching" too. In fact, go read the IGN forums about the infamous "Horse Armour"... to hear the 360 owners "bitch".

This has got nothing to do with it being Sony, it's got everything to do with it being a rip-off... simple.

RuinedMessiah
10-04-2006, 01:02 AM
I will however concede your "bitching" comment if you can show me a game for the 360 that has a potential cost of over $600 to get the full game content... on top of the initial purchase price that is, like GTHD.

Regardless of who buys what and for how much, the fact is that to get the "full game", it will cost you more than the machine you are playing the game on. Ignoring the "Fanboy" comments, that is quite simply unacceptable, from any company.

Both Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star Universe are a pay to play beyond the cost of Xbox Live gold to begin with. Final fantasy XI is also a shoe-in for even more expansion packs in the future. Long term players can easily dwarf the cost of the console itself.

That being said, your entire arguement is not only based on information that contradicts the information from official sources (Famitsu is, after all, only a magazine... same as EGM but with some respect behind it). Not to mention the arguement bases itself in the fantasy that everything available in GT3 would be available for GTHD which, given currently known information, isn't even remotely close to possible. What we know about GTHD are as follows.

1. The game will ship with a default number of tracks and cars included in the price of the software itself.

2. The software will cost as much as the price of materials similar to jampacks.

3. Content will be added periodically. No specifications have been given on how much or how little that content is.

4. GTHD is meant as a filler application until the main event of GT5 ships sometime in 2008.

Given the information that HAS been verified, your arguement on software costs as a total remains invalid since it requires the total amount of content to be known. Right now, the total content is speculatively based upon GT3 content and the largest number kicked around by Sony thus far has been 70 cars, 30 tracks. A far cry from GT3 content standards.

LeeC
10-04-2006, 01:05 AM
messiah - well put dude.

I really don't understand why poeple get so uptight about a company's buisness strategy. All these 360 fan boys have probably dissed MS software in the past, yet now they think MS is king. If any company has un-moral business strategies, i think MS is probably the biggest culprit. Sony bashing, PS3 bashing seems a fad these days, i wonder who's next :)
:D ... sorry, that deserved something bigger than a grin but they don't have it.

I really don't understand why people can't get past the Sony Bashing = XBox fanboys and just accept that maybe this time round, Sony have taken bad practice a bit too far.

Didn't you say somewhere you had worked for EA? Now there's a company with a business strategy to behold... 8 month updates that still cost the same as the initial 2 year project... We've added a new button to the FIFA control system, that's gotta be worth another 35 of your money. And yes, I get uptight about things like that because I believe that ripping the customer off for a fast buck, shouldn't be the primary objective of a company... any company.

I personally think that any business strategy that hides behind the "Digital Distribution is King" is bad. You should know was well as me, that companies using the "we make more money from DD therefore it's good for the industry" are liars. Give some companies double the profits and they will still churn out half assed, quick fix rubbish for full price.

If anyone thinks the price of games will drop through DD then consider this... If you can make more money on a $50 game, why the heck would you drop the price of the game if it will still sell as many?

You try telling your marketting or financial department that "to show good faith to those honest, money spending buyers, the company is going to drop game prices". Then watch as they ready your P45, as their show of faith. (sorry if that's lost on US readers, a P45 is what you get when you lose your job)

DD will make companies money that will not go back into the pockets of the buyers. Nothing has changed in the 20 years I have been developing games that is suddenly going to make a greedy developer any less greedy. All that I see happening is that less people will buy the game and prices will rise to compensate. You've only got to look at the initial batch of 360 games to spot those companies releasing shoddy 6 month ports with reduced content, for 10 more than the feature filled "last-gen" versions.

Give me a disk, a box and a manual and I'll cope with old technology and the freedom that comes with it thanks.

LeeC
10-04-2006, 01:09 AM
Both Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star Universe are a pay to play beyond the cost of Xbox Live gold to begin with. Final fantasy XI is also a shoe-in for even more expansion packs in the future. Long term players can easily dwarf the cost of the console itself.
So we're now comparing subscription services with downloadable game content?

RuinedMessiah
10-04-2006, 01:20 AM
You said the potential beyond the cost of the initial game. You never said it had to be solely through content expansions.

EnlightenedPixel
10-04-2006, 01:20 AM
So we're now comparing subscription services with downloadable game content?

Either way youre not going to be able to play or play well without paying a large sum of money.

PhilOsirus
10-04-2006, 03:03 AM
This game leads to social class like segregation. With only the rich kids being able to own a good selection of all types/class of cars. Only kids with money can upgrade the new tracks etc... We dont all have dispensable incomes that cover frivolous things like game addons.

How does it cost more money if you end up spending no more than 20$ on the game considering you would have never bothered to use over 90% of the cars available in GT4 anyway? If anything, you'll have MORE people to play against online.

DoubleSupercool
10-04-2006, 03:14 AM
An interesting overview on Sony's online/networking plans and goals (may require registration)

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11099

P_T
10-04-2006, 04:53 AM
Here's the update to GTHD.
Kazunori Yamauchi revealed that Sony plans to make GT HD available for the cost of the game disk and instruction manual. This suggests a retail price point of just a few dollars for the first PS3 Gran Turismo game. Now compare that to the $40 TDU. Granted it doesn't have a thousand miles of road but then again it's never designed that way. If the game cost $5, you'd have $35 to spend on the content of your own choice. If it costs $3, that's and extra couple of cars for you.

I don't know how high the potential cost after you added TDU's the car packs, but you can probably guess it'll at least be $100-$200 or even more, less expensive maybe but then again 2nd degree murder is still murder. ;)

There are actually 2 modes of GTHD. I'll let you guys find out for yourself here (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/734/734935p1.html).
Abandonwares? Why am i going to complain that Nintendo is bringing me the oppurtunity to play old games that i would have missed ordinarily?

None of your example are even close to comparible. Stop trying to flame me. For the record, well done, youve spotted that i dont perticularly like sony in the GAMES department. I dont like their strategy or business model for their console. Whenever i comment on Sony, i comment on the thread topic and list my pros and cons which are my opinion. i dont just come in and say 'Sony Suxz0rz Xbox pwns!!' wtf? I tried to flame you? when did I even mentioned your name in my previous post apart from quoting your post? Even LeeC got the fact that I wasn't only talking about you.

You said you list your pros and cons in your opinion but when I tried to point out some positive points which are of course in my opinion, you just dismissed them and you did say "As if in any way shape or form this could turn out to be good. Or has any good sides to it.". That doesn't sound like you list any pros or cons. Read more like a polished version or "Sony Suxz0rz". :)

I got nothing against Nintendo bringing back the old games, heck I was really excited about it, I could finally play Super Contra and Punch Out again... until I heard the price point. AU$7 for a hundred or so KB worth of 2 decades old NES games. I've seen cheaper prices for much newer platinum games that comes with a CD in EB.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to justify what Sony's doing or anything. I am just saying that it's unfair to single them out when they weren't the first to do so and certainly won't be the last.

RuinedMessiah
10-04-2006, 05:00 AM
An interesting overview on Sony's online/networking plans and goals (may require registration)

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11099

Hmm, decentralized game development. More focus on the add-on products. The shift away from steady development schedules to a communal effort from many different studios culminating in a single product...

A whole lot of jargon pretty much summing up to attempting to make the game industry work (or rather, not) like the films industry. It's speeches like these that make me glad I opted out of working for a major game studio to get into my current position. Sure, it's only 40 hours a week and less money, but I'm free to work on my own little projects and while the industry goes through a massive change in work ethics and many of my friends begin to get burned out from their sixth straight 80 hour work week, I'll be gladly chugging away, casually, on my own little RPG.

heavyness
10-04-2006, 06:08 AM
Hmm, decentralized game development. More focus on the add-on products. The shift away from steady development schedules to a communal effort from many different studios culminating in a single product...

A whole lot of jargon pretty much summing up to attempting to make the game industry work (or rather, not) like the films industry.

for once, i agree with you...

while i do see some things being able to be done remotely or outsourced to other companies, i can't imagine making a triple AAA title without having all resources under the same roof for the majority of the development process. sure, you can get some studios to model all the stadiums for Madden out, but that is just background, nothing more.

i don't know, maybe i'm crazy. i would like to hear what some people from the bigger studios think about this. and i do realize this does go on to a certain degree, but it seems like Sony wants it to swing over more to the movie side of things.

thoughtlesswhisper
10-04-2006, 06:34 AM
kids arent the only ones who dont have money. im 24. iv been playing and paying for games since 12 and still havnt reached the 'avg' gaming age. I still cant afford to spend a lot on games. All im saying is, if theyve got all the data, why not stick it on one of these infamous high density bluray discs and smack on the full price.

It may be that this would be too expensive at $80-$100 or something like that. Who knows. This could be a good idea. But if it hasnt been done yet, i dont see where all this cost has come from. $637 for all assetts seems very overpriced compared to other high detail games.

My reflex reaction to this was WTF, as you saw. I may be wrong but i find it hard to make any arguments FOR this method of selling. Apart from sony get a lot of money....

EnlightenedPixel
10-04-2006, 06:55 AM
My reflex reaction to this was WTF, as you saw. I may be wrong but i find it hard to make any arguments FOR this method of selling. Apart from sony get a lot of money....

People are only going to buy the vehicles they want, they arent being forced to spend $600 on a game. Essentialy, no one forced them to buy it, it's going to be common knowledge they have to buy cars and tracks, and everyone is probably going to buy the same 1-10 vehicles because of ther obvious advantages over everyone else.

Personaly, I dont see a point in it either, it doesnt seem that enjoyable to me. I lost interest after GT2.

quyeno
10-04-2006, 11:07 AM
like i said before, the advantage of GT4HD is that it allows you get the game for ultra cheap and buy the cars and tracks that you want to play. Just becasue there are X cars and tracks, doesn't mean you have to buy them all. When i played GT4, i only bothered to master ten or so cars which were my favourites in real life. I play PGR2 on xbox, it has less cars than gt4 and i still don't play them all. Show me someone who says they have mastered every car in GT and plays them all regularly and i'll show you a flying pig.

I was thinking, it would be really cool if you can trade cars with other players. This would be a first in DD. :)

P_T
10-04-2006, 12:46 PM
I really hope they will released a GT version of Logitech G25. Much goodness.

http://www.playfeed.com/blogimages/logitech_g25.jpg

RuinedMessiah
10-04-2006, 01:36 PM
All im saying is, if theyve got all the data, why not stick it on one of these infamous high density bluray discs and smack on the full price.

Well, you see... here's the trick of it. They don't have all that data. Plan and simple, there it is. They can't throw everything onto the game disc because all those assets simply do NOT exist. These aren't assets that are being ported, these are new assets, new content. It will periodically be dropped onto the Playstation Store (That better be the name of that service since it's finalized in the XMB menu). As for the time when the game would actually become complete, look towards sometime in 2008.

I will not take advantage of this business model since GT is about as exciting to me as Zoop at this point but I do see it as a viable model and one hell of a way to throw some money back into a studio who's main source of income is a title that won't see the light of day for two years. I mean, seriously. Tourist Trophy didn't do so hot and I can't imagine Gran Turismo for Boys going over too well either.

LeeC
10-04-2006, 08:47 PM
Well, you see... here's the trick of it. They don't have all that data. Plan and simple, there it is. They can't throw everything onto the game disc because all those assets simply do NOT exist. These aren't assets that are being ported, these are new assets, new content.
I thought the initial reports were that GTHD was GT in high definition running the GT4 assets. Anyway, this is getting a bit game specific perhaps and is maybe losing focus on the original topic. That and the fact I think the GT series is a rip-off anyway so this just adds fuel to my own personal fire... I guess it was the fact that the comment came from a Sony bod and GTHD had just caused a stir with some (allegedly) misreported figures, causing people to cite invalid arguments and contradictory statements...

So... to put my train of thought back on the right track, I still think mass digital distribution on full priced products is greedy, impractical, inconvenient and extremely risky. None of those spell F.U.N. to me and if gaming goes that way, I will happily go the other.

I know some people like it and for them that's fine. I also know that some people think the internet is going to hit Mach 1 for download speeds and will have unlimited bandwidth. I think I'll either be dead by that point or well into my second childhood... either way, gaming will probably be a bit unimportant by then. It makes you think though, how much it is going to cost if it ever does get that fast?

As always, my opinion is wholly personal to me and is not designed to sway or influence anyone else in any way.

RuinedMessiah
10-04-2006, 10:18 PM
I've seen this business model succeed before and I've seen it fail. Where it succeeds is the game o2jam. You download a simple demo and the gameplay itself play similarly to Beatmania or DJ Max. The demo is stripped of the ability to customize your character as well as the ability to play more than four songs. However, players can purchase more songs from their store and even a friend of mine made some nice cashflow selling some of his music through this application. A company that would have flopped managed to thrive using a business strategy exactly the same as GTHD.

And no, I don't see this as a mainstream event. It will remain a fairly isolated thing. Happening just enough to show up on Something Awful rants or message boards as some grand evil scheme.

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