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RobertoOrtiz
09-28-2006, 01:59 PM
Press Release:
A study by the Annenberg School of Communication commissioned by See Jane http://www.seejane.org (http://www.seejane.org/) examined the one hundred and one top-grossing G-rated films of the last fifteen years, most of which were animated, and found that the vast majority of characters in these films were male.

Animation Guild statistics show that only 16% of people working in creative or rendering jobs in animation are women.

WHERE THE GIRLS AREN'T

A PANEL DISCUSSION CO-SPONSORED BY THE ANIMATION GUILD AND SEE JANE

hosted by TAG President KEVIN KOCH and featuring:

GEENA DAVIS, actress and See Jane founder;

BRENDA CHAPMAN, Pixar director and story artist;

DEAN DE BLOIS, co-writer and director of Disneyıs Lilo and Stitch;

JENNY LEREW, DreamWorks story artist and blogmaster of The Blackwing Diaries;

FRED SEIBERT, president of Frederator.

Other panelists to be announced.

Thursday, October 12, 2006 @ 6:30 pm

Burbank Public Library*
300 N. Buena Vista St.
Burbank, California

This event is open to the public and is free of charge.

For further information, contact the Animation Guild at (818) 766-7151 or info@animationguild.org.

This event is not sponsored by or associated with the Burbank Public Library.

www.animationguild.org (http://www.animationguild.org)

-R

EnlightenedPixel
09-28-2006, 05:31 PM
I did not realise this was a huge issue. I know several women who work as amazing game designers, and who's art deparment apparently consist primarily of women.

spurcell
09-28-2006, 05:57 PM
I did not realise this was a huge issue. I know several women who work as amazing game designers, and who's art deparment apparently consist primarily of women.

Agreed. This gets brought up like once to twice a year. Everyone gives all these reasons, that don't really mean much, and in the end, women aren't as interested in 3d graphics. Hence, why there aren't as many... the end...

Obsydian
09-28-2006, 06:01 PM
I am woman, and I don't plan on quitting this anytime soon.

There are a bunch of us in my 3D class, but I heard that they usually drop out or can't take it, I don't know why that is.
Wish I could attend this!

neurobasics
09-28-2006, 06:03 PM
Agreed. This gets brought up like once to twice a year. Everyone gives all these reasons, that don't really mean much, and in the end, women aren't as interested in 3d graphics. Hence, why there aren't as many... the end...
yeah. cause we all know women are more interested in vacuuming.

agreenster
09-28-2006, 06:05 PM
It certainly isn't because companies dont want to hire them, if that's what they are implying.

I would say that out of all the demo reels and applicants we get, about 1 out of 10 are women. So there ya go. You cant hire them if they dont send a reel

Dennik
09-28-2006, 06:36 PM
The answer is simple. They just don't enjoy it that much. And you can't force them to do so. In this day and age, women have no problem doing whatever task they put their minds into. So if they don't populate that part of the industry, its their natural choice which i personaly accept and embrace. I think its better to embrace the natural differences in the genders than trying to be identical in each single trait.

spurcell
09-28-2006, 06:44 PM
yeah. cause we all know women are more interested in vacuuming.

yup. thats it. Frankly I just think a majority of girls growing up, aren't really interested in computers beyond their communicating desires. After that, it quickly moves into geekville to them. I'm not a girl, but I grew up with 5 of them, including a twin.

Trojan123
09-28-2006, 08:25 PM
This is a non issue.

back in drafting school, there was an average of a couple of girls for every 20 guys. It's not because the school denied them training, but it's simply because those women who weren't there didn't want to be there.

Personally, if I were a girl I would jump on it... because securing finding and grants and stuff is easier if you are a girl than a guy.

Chris

Dennik
09-28-2006, 08:28 PM
I think the whole fuss is because animators don't see the light of day, and would wish to have more women with them down in the dungeon. :D

ndat
09-28-2006, 08:41 PM
I think it's more of a inate society thing, not something we are going to be able to solve. At least not easily.

mech7
09-28-2006, 08:46 PM
They should have field day researching construction or fisher's practicly no women there :)

Bronwen
09-28-2006, 10:16 PM
Computing and technology, whether for entertainment or not, is the fastest-growing job sector in North America.

Saying that the lack of women in CG is a "non-issue" because women "don't want to be there" is pretty short sighted. The North American economy is heavily reliant on the contribution of women in the workforce. If the fastest-growing job sector can't involve women, how will that affect the vitality of the industry in the long run? The impact on individual women is to be considered as well. How will their financial status suffer if they can't tap in to this job market?

I've read a lot of studies that conclude the same thing: When it comes to using computers in the classroom, girls are less encouraged than boys.

http://www.aauw.org/research/girls_education/techsavvy.cfm

They are often isolated (the gender inequality starts early), ignored by the teacher, and subject to gender stereotypes both in the learning materials and by their peers.

I find it really hard to swallow that women have nothing to offer in CG, either in games (where I work) or in television or film. So if we can agree that the women who do work in CG contribute something valuable, why wouldn't we want more? As for not wanting to participate, well, if women are barraged with gender stereotypes, assumed to be less competent, assumed not to have an inclination or interest, then find some other field that welcomes them, can you really say "Gee, I guess they're just not interested"?

That's kind of like putting a sign on your fence that says "Beware of Dogs" then telling yourself the neighbours just aren't friendly, since they haven't stopped by.

One of the most convincing arguments I've heard for the small number of women in this industry is the long working hours, discouraging women who are often heavily burdened at home. I'm lucky to consider myself an exception (at least while I'm childless), but most women are expected by our culture to do more housekeeping and child care than their male counterparts, even in cases where women work full time. In that case it's really difficult to keep up with guys who don't have or don't want the same responsability. Obviously, it's our culture, we can't fix it overnight, but that doesn't mean ignoring the problem. How about we try looking at it from another angle? If we can't fix the gender inequality at home this year, let's address the working hours. I'm delighted for all of you 21 year olds who think that CG is the be-all end-all, and there's nothing you'd rather do than work 18 hours a day every day. Congrats. You found an industry that supports you, you must feel incredibly fulfilled. But trust me when I say your feelings of devotion won't last forever. That kind of workload is unsustainable, at a purely physical level. It seems that it's women who are willing to speak up about it (EA Spouse). There's a terribly macho attitude that pervades in CG, that employees can and will work up to the point of illness, just to prove how tough they are. This attitude not only alienates women, but it's bad for the industry in the long term. People burn out. Experience doesn't accrue the same way it does in other industries, which means we're constantly stuck re-inventing the wheel.

Breadth of experience is also important. The entertainment industry is a huge industry, but particularly in games, it can be guilty of recycling ideas. Involving more women means adding knowledge of broader audiences, ultimately allowing us to reach more people. If you're one of those pure-artist types, who feels that economics aren't a good reason to create, think of it as adding to our collective creativity and inspiration.

Having more women in the industry entails making the industry more welcoming to them. Making the industry more welcoming will have profound side-effects, beyond pretty pie graphs showing our progress. It's important in terms of sustainability, growth, understanding larger markets, creativity, and stability.

Still think it's a "non-issue"?

gnarlycranium
09-28-2006, 10:23 PM
The answer is simple. They just don't enjoy it that much. And you can't force them to do so. In this day and age, women have no problem doing whatever task they put their minds into. So if they don't populate that part of the industry, its their natural choice which i personaly accept and embrace. I think its better to embrace the natural differences in the genders than trying to be identical in each single trait.

"their natural choice"....?? :curious: What does that even mean? Does that make it UNnatural, then, that I do enjoy CG??

'they just don't like it' doesn't cut it. Not even close. Since when does an entire gender arbitrarily 'just not like' something as a nearly unified whole?

This topic has come up many times, and I'm never quite able to come up with an explanation for any of it. Many people think that women process information differently from men and may not have spatial reasoning skills as easily adapted for work in a computer, but even that doesn't come close to being a realistic reason.

Another part of the reason the field is male-dominated is probably because... well, it's male-dominated, which obviously makes it more comfortable for guys, what with all the gun-toting jiggly chicks in dental floss. Most people get into CG from being big fans of games and FX-filled movies, media that notoriously fail to capture a female audience.

The only real theory I've got for all this is that the social imbalance that's discouraged women from un-girly fields for decades still hasn't died out. The way the sciences and computer skills are taught in schools alienates a lot of students, particularly girls. Women are brought up differently from guys in most modern cultures, and it shapes their interests later on.

Trojan123
09-28-2006, 10:27 PM
Still think it's a "non-issue"?

Yeah, I do.

I can't make a female want to perform a job any more than you can. I worry more about people more concerned over the penis / vagina ratio than actually filling a chair with a qualified workers- regardless of race, creed, gender, etc.

I suppose many people haven't discovered the simple fact that while there are exceptions, men and women are different.

Chris

gnarlycranium
09-28-2006, 10:40 PM
One of the most convincing arguments I've heard for the small number of women in this industry is the long working hours, discouraging women who are often heavily burdened at home. I'm lucky to consider myself an exception (at least while I'm childless), but most women are expected by our culture to do more housekeeping and child care than their male counterparts, even in cases where women work full time. In that case it's really difficult to keep up with guys who don't have or don't want the same responsability. Obviously, it's our culture, we can't fix it overnight, but that doesn't mean ignoring the problem.

Good post Bronwen! A lot of that points out more along the lines of what I meant with my remark about the male-dominated industry being male-oriented. The CG industry has gotten so competetive, run by people who take wild and nearly uncontested advantage of their employees, and generally works on a mindset that women are more likely to find objectionable.

...The whole 'heavily burdened at home' thing sortof irks me really, people talk about women like they're just going to explode with kids at any second and become useless to the rest of society-- what difference does it make? Women or men, parents are parents, why would women be more 'heavily burdened at home' than men??


I worry more about people more concerned over the penis / vagina ratio than actually filling a chair with a qualified workers- regardless of race, creed, gender, etc.

:rolleyes: I think you just completely missed the point. No-one said anything about hiring a bunch of unqualified women to fix it.

If 'women who aren't there don't want to be there'... just WHY is that anyway? Obviously you could care less, but the rest of us wonder. Mysterious unfounded gender 'differences' are no reasoning at all.

Bronwen
09-28-2006, 10:50 PM
Yeah, I do.

I can't make a female want to perform a job any more than you can. I worry more about people more concerned over the penis / vagina ratio than actually filling a chair with a qualified workers- regardless of race, creed, gender, etc.

I suppose many people haven't discovered the simple fact that while there are exceptions, men and women are different.

Chris

Wow, I'm not even sure you read my whole post. I don't think I denied anywhere in there that men and women are different. I also don't think I espoused quotas.

What I did say, in a nutshell, is that diversity is valuable. And that filling a chair with a qualified worker would be easier if you had a larger talent pool. Isn't that obvious?

I'd also like to add that, while men and women are different, no one has ever shown me proof that men are intrinsically better at 3D.

Per-Anders
09-28-2006, 11:11 PM
Animation Guild? Well its certainly an impressive sounding name.

Don't worry though, thanks to comitees like these they will soon set up "positive" discrimination hiring practices (i.e. no coersion at all here, no siree, you have absolute freedom of choice, just become an "equal opportunities employer" or be sued) regardless of the value of doing such a thing, because it's patently clear that women are being deterred from entering the industry by the message sent out by the industry (read - misogynists the lot of them) and the difficulties forseen for the individual women by such a move (read - high standards), and once a clear message is sent out that they're welcome regardless they will of course just flock to the industry!

Yay for political correctness and quangos.

EnlightenedPixel
09-28-2006, 11:12 PM
Assuming there realy arent that many women in gaming * because I dont know how much you can trust statistics anymore* :

I think its a sociatal and parenting issue.

Too many parents raising their kids to be the " ideal" boy or girl.

Too many shows and ads showing one sex doing one thing, and the other doing another.

And too many schools screwing the arts.

I think that sums it up.

But in my experience, Ive met way too many awsome female artists to have known there were actualy so few in gaming.

Bronwen
09-28-2006, 11:14 PM
...The whole 'heavily burdened at home' thing sortof irks me really, people talk about women like they're just going to explode with kids at any second and become useless to the rest of society-- what difference does it make? Women or men, parents are parents, why would women be more 'heavily burdened at home' than men??

I'm not saying they should be. I'm saying they are. I don't like it any better than you do.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_binks/20060720.html

Statistics Canada has just released a survey that shows (surprise) women still do most of the housework and they feel more time-stressed than men.

The article is slightly hopeful that the gender division of labour is a power issue more than an ingrained gender issue, and since women are starting to achieve more equality in pay (money = power), we're starting to achieve better equality at home, too.

I'm afraid I got a little off topic there, but on top of reinforcing my earlier point, this article shows that progress can happen, and is being made.

Bronwen
09-28-2006, 11:28 PM
Animation Guild? Well its certainly an impressive sounding name.

Don't worry though, thanks to comitees like these they will soon set up "positive" discrimination hiring practices (i.e. no coersion at all here, no siree, you have absolute freedom of choice, just become an "equal opportunities employer" or be sued) regardless of the value of doing such a thing, because it's patently clear that women are being deterred from entering the industry by the message sent out by the industry (read - misogynists the lot of them) and the difficulties forseen for the individual women by such a move (read - high standards), and once a clear message is sent out that they're welcome regardless they will of course just flock to the industry!

Yay for political correctness and quangos.

Mmmm, tasty hyperbole. You've convinced me! Without even reading their agenda, I now know exactly what they're up to, and I'm AGAINST IT! :rolleyes:

Trojan123
09-28-2006, 11:46 PM
Why lose sleep because some chicks don't do 3D? Why come up with crazy moon-bat conspiracies about it?

I look around and see women filling all sorts of roles:
Librarians

Teachers

Professors

Scientists

Doctors

Surgeons

Management

CEO's

Business owners

Lawyers

Judges

Congress

Senators

Secrataries of State

Ambassadors

and we even got one that might get a chance at the Presidency.

No, I don't think you guys get it: with the playing field as leveled as it has been, [with many cases where the deck is actually stacked against white males], you can't continue to argue that "archaic societal roles" and "the Man" are keeping women down.

Women have a choice. They make it. If someone thinks that there aren't enough female chroma sitting behind a monitor, then it's their problem, not the problem of the woman who isn't there- whoever that woman who isn't there happens to not be.

In my book, there's no difference between someone who does a head count and says "there's not enough blacks or women" and someone who does a head count and says "there's too many blacks or women".


Chris

Trojan123
09-28-2006, 11:52 PM
Animation Guild? Well its certainly an impressive sounding name.

Don't worry though, thanks to comitees like these they will soon set up "positive" discrimination hiring practices (i.e. no coersion at all here, no siree, you have absolute freedom of choice, just become an "equal opportunities employer" or be sued) regardless of the value of doing such a thing, because it's patently clear that women are being deterred from entering the industry by the message sent out by the industry (read - misogynists the lot of them) and the difficulties forseen for the individual women by such a move (read - high standards), and once a clear message is sent out that they're welcome regardless they will of course just flock to the industry!

Yay for political correctness and quangos.

Lets not forget reverse-discrimination, where a qualified white man gets passed over for a job because some bean counter said that there aren't enough women or minorities there.

It's happened to me. I got passed over for a promotion, and the company had to actually hire someone outside teh company to fill the spot because she was female. She was also less qualified too. They weren't the happiest about it... but they had to live with it because there were people out there wringing their hands worrying about how many women and minorities that weren't in those positions.

Chris

pollywoggles
09-29-2006, 12:00 AM
Interesting, the panel is also discussing why a majority of the characters in G-movies are male.

I'd heard that one reason that little boys tend to be picky about the gender of the main characters -- they prefer not to watch stories "about girls" -- while, for little girls, the gender of the main characters aren't such a big deal.

So, to appeal to a larger audience, we get more male characters.

gnarlycranium
09-29-2006, 02:28 AM
Why lose sleep because some chicks don't do 3D? Why come up with crazy moon-bat conspiracies about it?
...
and we even got one that might get a chance at the Presidency.

No, I don't think you guys get it: with the playing field as leveled as it has been, [with many cases where the deck is actually stacked against white males], you can't continue to argue that "archaic societal roles" and "the Man" are keeping women down.
....We 'even' have ONE woman with a shot at the Presidency and we should be satisfied with that? ...Ow. The hypocrisy, it burns. Now you're complaining because "The Man" is keeping YOU down with some kind of affirmative action BS. Be that as it may, you're missing the point. Nobody said that the scarcity of women in the field was a terrible thing-- it's just a puzzling thing. Nobody said we need to enforce weird hiring policies. Nobody said they were losing sleep over it. Nobody said "The Man" was keeping anybody down, and nobody was whining that men have some huge advantage. Put your knee-jerk chauvenism away and actually read the posts.

vandervliet
09-29-2006, 03:01 AM
Girls usually just aren't as interested in video games, ect. as boys are. Not saying all of course, but the majority. This can easily be seen by the toys little kids play with, it is easier to find boys playing gi joes, battle, or video games, and girls playing house, dolls, barbies ect. What kind of games are mostly in the market? Gi Joe/war games mostly or related to such. I know the example I gave is pretty sterotypical, but it's still true for the majority. You're going to find an odd number of male to female ratio in the quliting and knitting industry--if you see what I'm getting at. I hope that makes sense.

I'm not so much concerned with that as the fact that the average salary for girls is lower then guys. Probably because there's more guys in this industry which makes sense of course. The average salary for men is $66,599, and for women it's $60,288 a year.

I don't really care about the girl/guy ratio as long as I can get a job fairly with fair pay for my work. I don't have a single thought of doubt that I will be judged by my gender when I apply to a job, only by my demo reel as it should be.


I'm a female and the male ratio numbers do not bother me one bit. They make sense if you think about it. And honostly, I would be a bit concerned if I joind a majority group of all girls trying to make a game like Halo, Call of Duty, Rainbow Six, Metroid, Command and Conqure. The games I listed are pretty much the selling video game market right there, mostly being male and aimed towards males -- excluding Sims.


---edit---

okey, that was for the video game industry, a little different then what you peoples are disscussing.

lebada
09-29-2006, 03:19 AM
I am woman, and I don't plan on quitting this anytime soon.

There are a bunch of us in my 3D class, but I heard that they usually drop out or can't take it, I don't know why that is.
Wish I could attend this!

2 words...cooking and laundry... jks lol dont hit me..:D

i noticed i only have 2 girls in my class of 15 people in animation so i think the trend will continue at least for another 3 to 5 years.

Per-Anders
09-29-2006, 05:51 AM
Mmmm, tasty hyperbole. You've convinced me! Without even reading their agenda, I now know exactly what they're up to, and I'm AGAINST IT! :rolleyes:

Thanks! It's your own hyperbole that convinced me to do it!

I know I can never convince you to consider this stuff, but I can write a few things that might encourage you to pause and think. Put it this way :

1) Would you rather know you had your employment positon because if your skillset and your earning it or only because of your profiling?
2) Is there any room for ambition or any form of drive whatsoever in a competitionless and a-meritocratic world?

Regarding the content of your other posts, like it or not, whatever you may enjoy and like is not what everyone else enjoys and likes and sorry but no they're not brainwashed or conditioned into being them anymore or less than you were into being you. Perhaps you'd be happier if you didn't start out with the viewpoint of "This is how people should be, how do we change them?" and instead thought "This is how people are, how do we deal with it?". Furthermore claiming that the argument "they have nothing to offer" is the same as "they're just not interested" is patently nonsensical, no-one has suggested this apart from you, the difference that you're clearly missing here is that one of these is a concious decision made by the self, the other is a value judgement generally of others, so please do try to not put words into the mouths of others.

Many people just do not like doing CG or animation, it's not just women either that would rather be doing something else, for whatever reasons. Perhaps because this is a niche market and field (please try to focus too as we are talking about animation here, not the film and games industries as a whole which employ a signifigant number of women overall and have their own inequality problems and biases in certain areas to both sides but that's suitable for another discussion entirely), there are a limited number of people in the world that want to do this once they find out what's involved and an even smaller number that actually can. It will likely never really stop being a niche market and to apply generalised principles to the specific rarely works for the benefit (except of the lawyers).

Atwooki
09-29-2006, 07:55 AM
As the industry is considered 'over-saturated' by many, perhaps the question should be:

"Why are there so many men working in animation?" :D

(a question for the women out there to answer)

kraal
09-29-2006, 08:15 AM
ok this would be a valid argueement if it were woman were denied positions ... look up male and female dominated occupations.... they exist but for the most part they are 'non-issues' cause it really in the sceme of things doesnt matter.... there are more male heating istallers than female but thier are more female chemist than males..... does anyone care??? nope cause if you are male and want to be a chemist you can....

Cobster
09-29-2006, 11:18 AM
I was the only woman studying for an MA in Computer Animation last academic year. I think there are a lot of barriers to women entering the field. Most of them have already been mentioned but I'd like to add a few more.

I agree with Bronwen that the reality of life is that women do the lion's share of the housework. Long hours don't help this if you have children (or even if you just have a untidy flat and a hungry boyfriend to come home to, like I have). Working in animation can be anti-social and isolating this can have a huge negative impact on your life.

EnlightenedPixel talks about too many parents raising their kids to be the "ideal" boy or girl. I think there is some truth in this too, I'm a bit of a tomboy, has this contributed to my interest in animation and CG? What hasn't appealed to me though is a lot of the stereo-typical subject matter of CG stuff: bikini clad girls, aliens, space ships, etc. I imagine this would put most women off too.

Games have been mentioned as a way of interesting people in CG animation. I hate to say it but for all that I do 3D animation and modelling I do suffer from a lack of spatial awareness and hand to eye coordination, espeically in first person shooters. If other women are like me they probably lose interest in these sorts of games because of this, despite their beautiful 3D content they probaly stick to the 2D scrollers and puzzles that aren't as pretty or as desirable to emulate in their work.

So how do we address these issues?

I believe it is down to education and attitude. And it has to start with us as current practioners of CG Artists.

I think most visual artists, regradless of gender, would enjoy 3D if they attempted it. At the moment though, there are barriers to trying it such as its availability in schools (both software, hardware and tutors), there is also a high price for home purchase (open source should be encouraged more, Blender for example is fantastic) and steep learning curves for the software. I do forsee 3D being part of art curriculums one day.

Attitudes in the home and at schools and universities should encourage women and girls into animation and CG. We should encourage them to develop original subject matter that appeals to them and use CG as the medium to realise their work.

I'm not sure whether this would be a good idea or not, but how about a showcase/chat forum for women on CG Talk? Do you think anyone would visit it? :shrug: I think it would be important for men to contribute to it too.

EnlightenedPixel
09-29-2006, 03:32 PM
Attitudes in the home and at schools and universities should encourage women and girls into animation and CG. We should encourage them to develop original subject matter that appeals to them and use CG as the medium to realise their work.


Good words there Cobster, though, Im not sure how it is over in the UK, but in the USA, they have already dropped Art as a "nessisary" class which many schools took advantage of already and have nearly scrapped art, by redirecting funds into other parts, usualy sports, and in several states they have added the 'need' for more science, math, and social studies in a sad attempt at bringing up test scores. If a kid barely averts failing math the first 2 years, is he realy going to do THAT MUCH BETTER by forcing him to take an even higher level of math the next?
Theyre essentialy squashing Art, Photography, CAD, and even wood/metal shop classes. Unless the elective a person chooses involves supporting the sports team Ala : Cheerleaders / Color Guard/ The Marching Band/ or the "Dance" class, which has been turned into a glorified bikini show, theres realy no elective they'd have for more than 2 years that isnt either Sports related, or a 2nd language which is mostly limited to Spanish.

American schools are taking massive steps backwards.

Elsie
09-29-2006, 05:25 PM
To be honest I fail to understand why it's such a big deal. I was the only girl on my university course for computer game development. I was the only girl in production at the game studio where I worked as a concept artist (apart from the associate producer). You know what? I didn't care, I didn't even really think about it.

Frankly the topic bores the hell out of me and everytime I see a new article on this (it seems to be the number one "philosophical" article topic choice related to the CG industry) I think I'm going to hurl. This thing has been done to death and I don't think there was even anything that interesting to read about it to begin with.

:/ Sorry! Just a little sore spot there ;)

OneSharpMarble
09-29-2006, 05:37 PM
I dunno, but if I had to toss something out there i'd say the critiqing could possibly be what keeps some women out. I know alot of women who take such things very personally.

Bronwen
09-29-2006, 05:47 PM
Can no one here imagine a way to involve more women in CG that doesn't involve quotas?

Have I stated that I support quotas? No, of course not, because I don't. I haven't done the research to support these points, but it's my opinion that in large companies, quotas only foster resentment, and in small companies, quotas can be seriously damaging. Small companies don't have the ability to carry underqualified employees. But I do resent your assumption that the only way to involve more women in CG is to force companies to hire underqualified staff -- it implies that women will always be generally less qualified than men.

1) Would you rather know you had your employment positon because if your skillset and your earning it or only because of your profiling?
2) Is there any room for ambition or any form of drive whatsoever in a competitionless and a-meritocratic world?

Of course I'd rather it was due to my skillset. In fact, that's how I got my current job -- by being better qualified than the competition. I've read a lot of literature about women in technology (see the link in my first post), women in animation, and women in games, and I've never come accross any support for quotas, or in fact any discussion of them at all.

What the articles I've read do suggest is more involvement of girls with computers in the classroom, positive and accessible female role models in technology jobs, and ways to facilitate networking for female tech professionals. These are all things that I support.

This is why I called your previous post hyperbole (exaggeration for the purpose of winning an argument, or extrapolation of minor information into a threatening conclusion). A group is getting together to discuss the dearth of females in animation, and your first conclusion is "Quotas! Your job isn't safe!" There are lots of other solutions.

Regarding the content of your other posts, like it or not, whatever you may enjoy and like is not what everyone else enjoys and likes and sorry but no they're not brainwashed or conditioned into being them anymore or less than you were into being you.

I don't want anyone brainwashed. That's kind of the point. Studies have shown (see the link in my previous post for one example) that young girls are not given the same opportunities as young boys to learn computer skills. If you aren't exposed to something, how can you know if you like it or not? Suggesting that girls, as a group, have less aptitude in computer, science, or math skills is sexist, and has been shown to be false:

http://www.psychologymatters.org/thinkagain.html

At the University of Wisconsin, Janet Shibley Hyde has compiled meta-analytical studies on this topic for more than 10 years. By using this approach, which aggregates research findings from many studies, Hyde has boiled down hundreds of inquiries into one simple conclusion: The sexes are more the same than they are different.

But it's really easy to influence people to believe otherwise:

In a 1999 study, Steven Spencer and colleagues reported that merely telling women that a math test usually shows gender differences hurt their performance.

You're saying that women are less interested in CG because men and women are different. Think about how that attitude would affect a young woman in high school trying to figure out her career path! This is what discussions like the Animation Guild's are trying to bring to light.

agreenster
09-29-2006, 06:41 PM
ok this would be a valid argueement if it were woman were denied positions ...

Did anyone read this? It settles the whole argument.

If women arent interested enough in games or animation to pursue jobs in games or animation, dont blame the games or animation industry.

Blame parents. Blame schools. Blame biology. Blame society. But dont blame us, and dont create inflammatory posts on industry message boards about it.

The reason people get defensive about threads and topics like this is because it implies the "man" is keeping women out of the industry, which is absolutely untrue at the point of hire.

Smartypants
09-29-2006, 10:27 PM
Did anyone read this? It settles the whole argument.

If women arent interested enough in games or animation to pursue jobs in games or animation, dont blame the games or animation industry.

Blame parents. Blame schools. Blame biology. Blame society. But dont blame us, and dont create inflammatory posts on industry message boards about it.

The reason people get defensive about threads and topics like this is because it implies the "man" is keeping women out of the industry, which is absolutely untrue at the point of hire.

I agree with agreenster. Let's not be so quick to blame (or to be defensive.) If a woman wants to get into CG in this day and age, I believe she can. If she can't, it's because she can't cut the mustard in this field. There's plenty of guys who don't make the grade, either.

I think there are a lot of reasons why there aren't more women in CG. Personally, I think part of it is that women and men are different. (Duh!) Here's an article for ya, that makes the argument that womens' brains are different from men's. (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13989048/site/newsweek/)

I'm sure I'll get lots of backlash from this, and hey, disagree with me if you want. That's my opinion. Not all women fit one mold, however, and plenty of women have great careers in this industry. I am one of them.

However, Bronwen hit on a BIG HUGE important issue: the CG industry is NOT family-friendly. Not at all. If anything, it's family hostile. I'm a woman, I'm engaged to a wonderful fella, and we're both in "the industry". When/if we decide to have kids, someone is going to have to cut back on their career to take care of the home front. And the assumption is, it's going to be me. I make less than he does, so we take less of a financial hit if he remains the worker.

All sorts of women in every field have to confront this issue, if they want to have a family. The options are: Mom sacrifices her career and stays home, Dad sacrifices his career and stays home, or they both keep working, juggle the kid around, and pay exorbitant amounts for child care. Or, don't have kids.

Ok I'm gonna stop before I really get ranting.

bassaminator
09-29-2006, 11:28 PM
Cobster, great post! You make a lot of interesting points, and even suggest some nice potential solutions.
agrenster, I don't think that "settles the argument" since no-one (certainly not everyone) is arguing the problem is "discrimination at the hiring point"- rather that there is a fact: only 16% women in animation, and a discussion of why this is the case, and, what we could do to make things more even. If you're not interested in having more women in animation, or at least finding out why there aren't already, that's ok I guess. But, you can't stop other people from disagreeing ;)
Personally I think the topic is far from boring- and not just for some country's "industry". Having more women in the industry is almost a side issue; Mainstream comercial content follows market pressure, not artistic inclination. More interesting is seeing wider groups of people producing (independant, comercial or fine art)- wider discourse, different points of view, new artistic directions, etc.

Smartypants
09-29-2006, 11:57 PM
Sometimes I wonder why there aren't more men in teaching and nursing positions.

bassaminator
09-30-2006, 12:06 AM
not enough pay and/or prestige, I imagine. That, and traditional expectations for those jobs. You'll notice no shortage of men as doctors or college level teachers though- a bit off topic here though?

Elliptic
09-30-2006, 01:54 AM
I don't think it's off-topic. The same question could be asked regarding careers such as Anthropology or Psychology. There are many fields in which there are much fewer men than women.

As long as those who pursue them (or not) find their own personal happiness then I don't see a problem. Why take so much trouble in dragging people into a certain career? Let them be happy their own way. I think it's clear that men are not being "oppressed" into not being anthropologists.

Bronwen and Kat, thanks for the links.

Muldrin
10-05-2006, 09:05 AM
I feel I'm going to have to jump in here. I for one have always encouraged my sister to join me in gaming, but she's rarely all that interested, in many of the games, though she has found a few she loves. One of our favourite games would have to have been SSX snowboarding and we both had lots of fun playing that. Which snowboarder was her favourite? Kaori the japanese chick with the blush dog(i think) backpack(though i always wondered why she carries around one while snowboarding). So in some sense i think that gaming content could always be better improved to cater to more girls, maybe that in turn would interest girls more in the industry. I think at the end of the day, the stereotypes will stay for certain things interest wise. I certainly have no interest in ballet, not because I like to fit in a certain stereotype but because at the end of the day, I simply do not like it and it bores me.

alfsea
10-16-2006, 10:47 PM
Let me jump in with both feet here - being not only female, but so ancient that I even pre-date womens lib! No man has ever stopped me doing anything I set out to do in life: the only thing that ever held me back was myself, when I was not up to best standard at the work needed.

Men have good cause to be envious of the breaks a woman can get, thanks to being female and attractive. But they dont waste time in petty wingeing, they just get on with the task of being as good as they can at the job, which is the honest way to compete in the workplace.

Also, all studies of the brain have proved beyond doubt that the male brain is totally different to the female in certain key areas, and 3d spatial awareness is very high on that list. Thats the reason they make good fighter pilots - along with godgiven ballsiness. ( Me.....I could destroy the whole air fleet in an afternoon with my spatial confusion!)

Get used to it - men and women are different. Vive la difference!

spurcell
10-16-2006, 11:02 PM
Vive la difference!

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