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diginime
09-28-2006, 06:00 AM
Hi there, i just wonder that is there any people who can model well without having any topology knowledge. Hmm, the topology knowledge i mean is the human topology, the muscle flow etc...

Michael5188
09-28-2006, 06:07 AM
Depends on what you're modeling.

But as far as needing to know anatomy to model an accurate human figure, yes, you do need to know it.

wireFrame
09-28-2006, 06:18 AM
I think so since you only need good topology if you're going to animate the model. However if you just want to model without thinking of topology, you can still achieve something. One example is zbrush wherein you can start with a sphere primitive and model a humanoid out of it.

ThomasMahler
09-28-2006, 09:31 AM
Why is it so hard to learn a bit about topology? It's a technical component, sure, but it's pretty easy to grasp. I think you'll definitely have some problems later down the road if you know next to nothing about Subdivision Surfaces and Topology.

Sure, you can model something nice from a subdivided cube or from an abbreviated Zspheres mesh, but even there you'll work with topology - knowing how to deal with it will only help.

Oink
09-28-2006, 10:08 AM
Why is it so hard to learn a bit about topology? It's a technical component, sure, but it's pretty easy to grasp. I think you'll definitely have some problems later down the road if you know next to nothing about Subdivision Surfaces and Topology.

Sure, you can model something nice from a subdivided cube or from an abbreviated Zspheres mesh, but even there you'll work with topology - knowing how to deal with it will only help.The thing about learning topolgy...

Ive never really seen any tutorials or someone that actually goes through what "good topology" is. Many times i just see posts with "bad topology, redo it"

Granted i havent really been looking for it either.


Ive often heard that steven stahlbergs models has "bad topology", Who cares. He kicks ass doing what he does and id love to see some of you that diss topology do it better the "correct way".

All in all, I dont care about the topology issue as long as it works for what its meant for and that it looks good.

wireFrame
09-28-2006, 10:33 AM
I don't want to give examples but I agree. I know that a good modeler can model a realistic humanoid without caring about topology. It's just about surface directions; so if it's just personal and you're not going to animated that model, it's ok. in ZBrush you don't have to look at your wireframe and be aware of what's going.

In production though, your model must have good topology.

ThomasMahler
09-28-2006, 10:51 AM
The thing about learning topolgy...

Ive never really seen any tutorials or someone that actually goes through what "good topology" is.

http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/

Geta-Ve
09-28-2006, 11:35 AM
In my opinion, topology really comes in to play when animating, edge loops and what not.

As a model in a scene where everything is stagnant I think the end result is what matters.

However modeling just any which way is slower than using nice/flowing topology, usually edge loops and such are formed out of actual muscle definition.

It is hard to make a well formed model without eventually even accidentally having good topology.

Snowstorm
09-28-2006, 12:12 PM
Yes, I am very sure you can model well without knowing topology.

Firstly, not all of the models a modeler will do are organic, and on top of that not all need to be animated.

Starting off I did only mechs, and whilst I'm not that good I have seen some fellow mecha artists who are, and as far as I know they dont really care about topology, we just model what senseless details we can come up with such that they make sense.

Next, organics do not always need topologically accurate polygon flows to animate properly. Sure, it does help, but without taking into account the polyflow for my recent human mesh I got the shoulders and arms to simulate muscular movement convincingly whilst walking. That was enough for the project, so I didnt need to go any further - it might also come down to something like that where you dont need to apply topology everywhere. I managed after many hours to work around it with point weighting.

Then again modeling topology isnt that hard either, it just involves properly planning your models, being careful and being bothered to solve whatever problems stand between you and the perfect polyflow.

However, i'd say that things are probably different in the industry.

nickepstein
09-28-2006, 12:35 PM
as someone stated, if its personal i think whatever looks good, but you might run into nasty deformations when animating later (again if its a still who cares) -- in production though, if you have bad topology that model won't be getting past your model supe...!

twedzel
09-28-2006, 10:11 PM
Yeah model topology only becomes really valuble when you rig. So yeah you can make great looking models with crap topology. The tougher part is when it comes time to make deformations. The more robust your character needs are, the better your topology will have to be or the rest of the pipeline will suffer. The Irony is really good topology is only learned through enveloping your characters and creating their deformations. So if a modeller does not do this sort of work, their topology knowledge will only be gained through word of mouth from other people who do put models through the paces.

So to answer your question, if you are modelling for yourself have at it. Do whatever the hell you want to do with it to get the effects you need to acheive. If you are modelling to hand a creature off to me (or some other rigger), it had better have good topology or I will send it back to you with nasty little notes.

MrPositive
09-29-2006, 10:33 AM
Human topology becomes important when you animate the character. Without it you won't be able to move the character like a human. However, those who want to just sculpt accurate humans sometimes skip the topology stage. For instance, on the Human Anatomy DVD by Zack Petroc (Gnomon) he forgoes the topology and just generates a quick basic low rez mesh so he can jump into the modeling stage. I will say that skipping topology on a face model, even for stills and zbrushing, is a bad way to go.......trust me.

mech7
09-29-2006, 04:39 PM
You are right though i have seen faces from jsut a sphere or on the dvd from zack petroc sphere like.. and they look good.. although you do have to fight the mesh and subdivide many more times then you else would have to do :) Bur appearently there are some masters who are able to do realistic heads from just a sphere without any topology.. just look at the demo vids from zbrush for the head :D

Human topology becomes important when you animate the character. Without it you won't be able to move the character like a human. However, those who want to just sculpt accurate humans sometimes skip the topology stage. For instance, on the Human Anatomy DVD by Zack Petroc (Gnomon) he forgoes the topology and just generates a quick basic low rez mesh so he can jump into the modeling stage. I will say that skipping topology on a face model, even for stills and zbrushing, is a bad way to go.......trust me.

Dennik
09-29-2006, 04:46 PM
With a good topology everything falls in place, everything makes sense, your life is much easier when you fine shape your character and the geometry is much more efficient to deform, and shade properly. Thats one reason actualy why i never use box modeling for characters, not exclusively anyway. I create, extend my polygons and shape along the way of the muscles, rather than try to get there from a cube.

Can you do without knowledge of basic topology? Yes. Some people do, probably those who do not take advantage of the subdivision surfaces capabilities. But it will make your life much harder if you go this way. Therefore its not recomended.

I would say, go buy an anatomy book to take reference from, like "Dynamic Anatomy" by Burne Hogarth (http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Anatomy-Burne-Hogarth/dp/0823015521/sr=8-1/qid=1159544691/ref=sr_1_1/104-6866500-2549531?ie=UTF8&s=books)
It will help you a lot in visualising your characters properly. :thumbsup:

Kanga
09-30-2006, 02:44 AM
As applications on all levels develope topology will cease to become relevant. The way it is now the lower the resolution the more important it becomes because it supports economy.

Modelling will change drastically. Topology will go the way of the dinosaur. ATM topology is a symphony I love.

diginime
09-30-2006, 03:39 AM
Ok then. Thanks for the replies guys. Anyway, i'll be going to vfs and i think they'll teach anatomy as well.

newellteapot
10-05-2006, 02:13 PM
With a good topology everything falls in place, everything makes sense, your life is much easier when you fine shape your character and the geometry is much more efficient to deform, and shade properly.

I totally agree with this. If you know how something is build in terms of topology, you will model much better.

[QUOTE=Dennik]Thats one reason actualy why i never use box modeling for characters, not exclusively anyway. I create, extend my polygons and shape along the way of the muscles, rather than try to get there from a cube.
QUOTE]

I although disagree with this, you can achieve a beatiful muscle flow with polys.

newellteapot
10-05-2006, 02:14 PM
Ops, sorry for the double post! Press the button twice by mistake :):)



With a good topology everything falls in place, everything makes sense, your life is much easier when you fine shape your character and the geometry is much more efficient to deform, and shade properly.

I totally agree with this. If you know how something is build in terms of topology, you will model much better.

[QUOTE=Dennik]Thats one reason actualy why i never use box modeling for characters, not exclusively anyway. I create, extend my polygons and shape along the way of the muscles, rather than try to get there from a cube.
QUOTE]

I although disagree with this, you can achieve a beatiful muscle flow with polys.

cgikevin
10-06-2006, 05:43 PM
Ok then. Thanks for the replies guys. Anyway, i'll be going to vfs and i think they'll teach anatomy as well.

Well, you have 2 short terms of Life Drawing, and only one LD class per week (which sucks - for true development in life drawing you can't have 7 days between sessions).

You'll also get a good anatomy book, and depending on whether or not you do the modelling stream, you'll have 1 to 3 terms of sculpture where you can also develop your knowledge of anatomy.

Topology is important and extremely helpful if you plan on something being animated. That being said, deformers can always help "cheat" certain anatomy and all, but since you'd have to be familiar with the anatomy in order to create those effects, you need to learn topology any way you look at it. And it's much easier to create a model with good lineflow and avoid as much extra work as possible.

diginime
10-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Well, you have 2 short terms of Life Drawing, and only one LD class per week (which sucks - for true development in life drawing you can't have 7 days between sessions).

You'll also get a good anatomy book, and depending on whether or not you do the modelling stream, you'll have 1 to 3 terms of sculpture where you can also develop your knowledge of anatomy.

Topology is important and extremely helpful if you plan on something being animated. That being said, deformers can always help "cheat" certain anatomy and all, but since you'd have to be familiar with the anatomy in order to create those effects, you need to learn topology any way you look at it. And it's much easier to create a model with good lineflow and avoid as much extra work as possible.

Thanks for the reply man, you from VFS too? Then what subject they have for a week?

cgikevin
10-11-2006, 05:53 AM
Yeah, I'm in term 4 of 6 of the 3d animation program here at VFS.

I don't understand your question. Are you asking what other subjects they have to fill up that week? I won't remember exactly because every term has a different class schedule, and sometimes they change during the term as well. VFS' website does have a listing of their classes, though.

Oh, and by the way, I might've been wrong about the Life Drawing class. I think maybe the first term it's offered it's twice a week (Tues/Thurs), and in the following one it's only once a week.

I don't remember exactly, I just remember thinking I would've done anything to trade my classical animation class for an extra life drawing class.

diginime
10-11-2006, 07:39 AM
What you mean by last sentence?

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