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RobertoOrtiz
09-27-2006, 01:03 PM
First I wanted to thank all who participated in the last challenge.

I am very happy with the number of finished entries we go so far,
and the high quality of work we got.

I am posting this thread, because I want to keep the number of entries high for next week's Frankenstein's Castle one week mini challenge.

So lets talk about the recent mini challenge:

I want to know:
What did you liked about the last mini challenge?
What you hated?

How could we foment more the community environment?
Would you like to see more modelers spotlights or galleries?

One idea I wan to push is to start a point system, for those who participate, andfor those who win the mini challenges.
Looking forward to your comments.
-R

fx81
09-27-2006, 04:15 PM
>I am posting this thread, because I want to keep the number of entries high for next week's Frankenstein's Castle one week mini challenge.

wait, did i miss something? i thought we would alternate between organic and non-organic topics. this last challenge was non-organic so the next should be organic modeling. and as far as i know you said it would be modeling a likeness of a historical person.


>What did you liked about the last mini challenge?
the time and effort people put in and the attention to detail.

>What you hated?

lack or raference, even though they were all from the list many models did not have any reference. so it was more of a workshop that a challenge or being able to model something exactly as it is in reality. in short people made up many random models.

RobertoOrtiz
09-27-2006, 04:25 PM
The Frankenstein Castle mini challenge is an opportunity in time that I could not pass.


Besides It will last ONLY one week.
:)
-R

morphius-ms
09-27-2006, 04:50 PM
What did you liked about the last mini challenge?

I liked the fact that there were many models to choose from. Maybe you could use this format again but have three different models(all related in a way like Michaelangelo or Leonardo Di Vinci) and then have three different levels... one level would be one model... the second level would be two models and the third level would be all three... and then in the voting you could have it like "Best model #1" "Best model #2" "Best model #3" and have your bests for each model... what do you think? (sorry this should actually be in the suggestion thread)

What you hated?

I liked the fact that some people took it upon themselves to texture the model they were working on and yes it does add to the realism. I for instance didn't texture my models (and I know some people didn't texture them as well) maybe next time there should be two different sections one for untextured models where people didn't texture them (flat shade, GI lighting) and one for textured models. (though in my case it wouldn't really have helped)



As for "mashru" comment of switching between organic and non-organic... this technically wasn't based on either... though this one was more towards non-organic... it had its fair share of organic models in it (and everybody did atleast one0... So the next one would probably be all non-organic if taken correctly.

nemuro
09-27-2006, 06:54 PM
What did you liked about the last mini challenge?

It represents a great way to brush up the skills required for modeling

What you hated?

I hated the fact that I heard of it just today, after the deadline, I wanted to enter it and make it worth my while.

I am not however going to enter the Frankenstein's Castle mini challange, it sounds to difficult for my skills, I know where my skills end.

spirogyro
09-28-2006, 03:44 AM
I want to start off by saying that I unfortunately didn't finish, therefore I don't know if I should even be answering what I liked and disliked about the challenge.

But I will anyways :)

What I liked about the last challenge:

I did like the freedom of choosing from a variety of models, which included a mix of non organic and organic objects.

What I didn't like about the last challenge:

I really don't like the fact that there really isn't much activity for these mini challenges. Maybe more advertising on the front page, or "possibly" a small prize could be given. I do like the point system that was mentioned but I'm not sure how that would increase activity. I know that this isn't like one of the "large" challenges that we have here at CGTalk, but I also see that there is a lack of comments and critiquing going on too. I think I had a total of 2 or 3 comments from people other than me.

Another issue is that people did start texturing and along with them, so did I. It probably should have been stated that there should be NO texturing or offer another part of the challenge that included texturing. Actually we could have done a 3 week modeling contest and a 3 week texturing contest using the same models...just an idea. Nonetheless, I did enjoy it and hopefully we'll have an even better turnout, even though a lot of good stuff was made.

Congrats to those who finished and win.

-Spirogyro

spirogyro
09-28-2006, 03:46 AM
What did you liked about the last mini challenge?

It represents a great way to brush up the skills required for modeling

What you hated?

I hated the fact that I heard of it just today, after the deadline, I wanted to enter it and make it worth my while.

I am not however going to enter the Frankenstein's Castle mini challange, it sounds to difficult for my skills, I know where my skills end.

It doesn't matter what you skill is, your not going to get better unless you challenge yourself. That's why it's called a challenge. What if you end up learning something during this project that will increase your modeling skills for the next one? You should enter, it's just a week and you have nothing to lose....:)

yencaray
09-28-2006, 03:57 AM
Another issue is that people did start texturing and along with them, so did I. It probably should have been stated that there should be NO texturing or offer another part of the challenge that included texturing. Actually we could have done a 3 week modeling contest and a 3 week texturing contest using the same models...just an idea. Nonetheless, I did enjoy it and hopefully we'll have an even better turnout, even though a lot of good stuff was made.

Congrats to those who finished and win.

-Spirogyro


thats what i'm doing and planned from the start being a modeling challenge i wanted to focus on modeling not shading and textureing that goes on in the lighting challenges. I"m taking all the models i did for this challenge and going to use it for my own texturing and shading lessons when i get to that part though....

But i did like the variety and that fact it was a challenge and greatly pushed my skills so as long as challenges are like that, they are a good challenge! So thank you

What i didn't like was community involvement out of almost 2000 views......umm like 5 people left me comments! i kinda wished people would have really critiqued my work but i'm glad for those who did comment me! i'm not going to let that go un noticed i'll definatly remember who did!

And i kinda thought that this was a modeling challenge not a shading and texturing so i think we really should try in the future to keep shading and texturing minmal if not banned
so peoples models are whats standing out not the picture and eye candy! Vince is a good example he's got awesome models! and showed how a model should be shown!! plus if he textured it alot of not most of all the fine detail he put into the model would be hidden! how can we appriciate the modeling if it's textured!


But dealing with the challenge theres not much i can't say i didn't like about it. I hope that not every challenge is going to be a 30 day challenge becaue i would really like to see alot of shorter ones that don't span out so long....so maybe host weekly challenges and at the same time hold monthly ones so there is always two going on for those who want to work on a long project and those who don't! I do want to participate in more 30 day challenges but not everyone if it's one after another. kinda like give us a breather say after a long one give a short one or two thata a week long before we'd jump into a long one! it take alot of work and i think thats why so many people didn't finish it! even though this was my first challenge i think thats a good idea!~

And i really like what you have come up with the next challenge of working with the different forums! I'm super excited, even more then the last one! I think this will yield some awesome results involving other forum groups!

RobertoOrtiz
09-28-2006, 01:04 PM
One thing I want to encourage is people from all skill leverl to participate in the challenges. Honestly, I will try to give more comments on the entries, but I been VERY busy in the past month.


Anyway, lets keep the comments flowing.

-R

anishmations
09-30-2006, 04:52 AM
hi guys...:)

What I liked!!
Choice of models..(I'm happy I got a chance to take a deviation from the normal organic modeling I get to do:) ), freedom of creativity, real good participation by guys who entered in.
What I dint like!!
Weak number of participants, a feeling tat this has got bad viewership.
And the fact that the platinum, gold and silver challenges merged up at voting time. (yeah again weak participation in each category)

I see a lot of fuss about models in a challenge being textured and rendered. Well, I think I need to make my point about how and why I did it on my entries here. :)
I thought of just the following few aspects.
1. We had 2 best render categories in the challenge apart from the modeling detail categories.
2. The work if it comes out good, could directly enter my personal gallery. I know I'd be lazy another day to pick these up and texture them later.
3. Almost all the models I made were presented in their cement shaded GI renders too. So that voters could easily see wat the model was and how the model got enhanced with textures.
4. It was a challenge unto myself to not just complete the model, but also to texture and light them up for renders in the few hours I get apart from my work hours.
I like working for presentation and I do believe it is a skill (strictly personal..could be just me . :shrug:)

So in future, to avoid all these confusions, it would be better if it could be clearly defined as to wat and on wat basis the BEST RENDERS are going to be evaluated. Is it just GI and camera angle? Or does it involve texturin and postworko too.

Everybody did a grt job here..so happy I took part in this.
Cheers everyone :thumbsup:

Imagus
10-01-2006, 05:51 PM
What worked in the last challenge:

The ability to select a skill level appropriate to your experience, the abilility to select from a wide variety of organic and non-organic models, the fact that the number of models forced you to complete work, rather than (potentially) reaching a point where it didn't seem feasible, then giving up.

What seemed problematic about the last challenge:

I got the sense that many of the participants, especially at the 30/30 (Platinum) level were so busy trying to meet the deadline that they really didn't have any extra time to comment on others' work. In the Vitruvian Man competition, there seemed to be a lot more cross-thread critique/comment, which is very helpful, especially to more novice modeling entrants.

Also, texturing/lighting did seem to play a large part in the results, though it was technically a modeling competition. This is understandable - a truly realistic model usually relies, at least a little, on texturing - but for the purpose of the competition, if the final renders had all been untextured-only, it may have kept the focus on the geometry.

-= Imagus =-

RobertoOrtiz
10-04-2006, 06:35 PM
Boy I am glad I started this thread...


The EON announcement hit us like a jackhammer, so I consider the Frankenstein castle mini challenge officially a bust.

Lets do a postmortem on it...


-R

fx81
10-05-2006, 12:33 AM
hi Roberto, i think the recent challenge topics have picked up a bad trend which is compromising quality and going for quantity.

both the 30 models and the frankenstein challenge seems to be a challenge of modeling more things in less time. i can elaborate, but im guessing you know what i mean.

my suggestion woud be to make a specific subject like the "david" challenge based on a real reference. it seems that the challenges are becoming more relaxed and drifting away from actual hardcore modeling.

for example, i would consider modeling a boris vallejo's work or a likeness of someone to be hardcore for the organic topic. and for hard-surface, may be something like mercedes clk dtm to the last tiny detail.

having strict subject matter can seem less creative to some but if they have great aesthetic value and be challenging enough technically then i think they certify as a hardcore modeling subject. thats just my opinion.

yencaray
10-05-2006, 08:09 AM
i think anything that has to do with modeling thats puching the limits of any sort of modeling is what hardcore should be. Modeling a statue of a david while a modeling challenge i think lays more towards anatomy. It's a good challenge but i really think modeling should push modeling skills and techniques in form with artistic skills! modeling a car would be a great example...i know this would be a very difficult challenge for me! that is if i have to recreate an actual true life car.

i really think the anatomy and artisic form forum should house a place for people looking to model those historic statues and heads and well dealings with anatomy. if we do one great! but i think from looking at what roberto has done with these challenges is what this needs and should be! sure i don't think i liked the virtrivianman but if i'd had the time before i'd done it cause it's still a challenge. and i don't like it cause it doesn't belong but because well i don't see the fun in it! but reguardless whatever roberto pics for the challenge i'll do it if i have the time! think about if you're looking to work for a company what better a chance to prepare cause they are going to be telling you what to make anyways. At least here we have a choice and a very free one when we actually start a model!

So roberto Just keep doing what you do! I'm glad you let us give you input for what we'd like it's nice of you cause you don't have to do that! but i see more benifit here when roberto picks it and we don't! it's easy modeling something we like but not so easy when we're told what to.

thats part of this, modeling things that other people want us to model! another reason this challenge forum is great!
In fact all of them are because of this! so i kinda take it as well i guess people don't really want to improve there skills....what good is it if you only ever model what you want to.....ehh??

Roberto if you decide the next one is a car of some sort i'm in...even though thats where my being able to model something comes crashing to a halt!

fx81
10-05-2006, 03:55 PM
i think anything that has to do with modeling thats puching the limits of any sort of modeling is what hardcore should be. Modeling a statue of a david while a modeling challenge i think lays more towards anatomy. It's a good challenge but i really think modeling should push modeling skills and techniques in form with artistic skills! modeling a car would be a great example...i know this would be a very difficult challenge for me! that is if i have to recreate an actual true life car.

i really think the anatomy and artisic form forum should house a place for people looking to model those historic statues and heads and well dealings with anatomy. if we do one great! but i think from looking at what roberto has done with these challenges is what this needs and should be! sure i don't think i liked the virtrivianman but if i'd had the time before i'd done it cause it's still a challenge. and i don't like it cause it doesn't belong but because well i don't see the fun in it! but reguardless whatever roberto pics for the challenge i'll do it if i have the time! think about if you're looking to work for a company what better a chance to prepare cause they are going to be telling you what to make anyways. At least here we have a choice and a very free one when we actually start a model!


well, this challenge started with two divisions. one organic modeling and another hard-surface modeling. for organic modeling, any kind of anatomy is a must i think because in real world if you go to a job interview for a modeler position in game/film industry they would want to see if you can model realistic human figure both male and female and also realistic animals/creature with good anatomy. not imaginative characters. also in any good art school, one of the first things you will be taught is figure drawing and anatomy studies as well as still lifes.
for hard-surface, i suggested sopmething like Mercedes CLK DTM in the above post, which has is great car with good design and complicated curved surfaces and details. again, this is a suggestion and there are different cars, fighter planes, ships, bikes etc. with the same level of detail and aesthetic beauty.
you say that we should model what we are given. well thats exactly my point. in the 30 models in 30 days challenge, there was a list of model but no specifc reference for most of the models. many models were just modeled with no specific ref. so it was pretty much modeling what you wanted.

yencaray
10-05-2006, 05:51 PM
that is another great point! I know when i modeled all my models i had reference pics i used to model from. and thats part of a good challenge! I get what you are talking about now! everyone ought to use the same reference pics.

jojo1975
10-06-2006, 09:17 AM
Unfortunatly I dind't have time to partecipate to the last challenge, I mean 30 models and also Frankstein castle. I guess it will end today and probably I only had time to work on it during weekend since graphics is not my full time job. As for that probably a weekend challenge sometime could be good.
The last challenge had really great entries even if IMHO there are two things that should be clarified...since this are MODELLING challenges textures should be OPTIONAL and probably for "fair" competition avoided.. I mean everyone is free to post in a PERSONAL thread his works but, c'mon, when you have seen a so beautiful renderer is not possible to judge ONLY the model. Texturing and lighning is VERY time consuming so the competition when you texture a model became unballanced. Another important issue it has been also sometime the lack of "TRUE" references.

TWO WISH

Why dont' post both ORGANIC and INORGANIC at one time and give partecipants choice to choose. For example I mean I will never "dare" to partecipate to an organic competion
but an inorganic on the same topic could be good for training.
For example TOPIC, ROMAN AGE :ORGANIC Julio Cesar Head sculpture, INORGANIC Roman Temple FRANKSTEIN: ORGANIC Head of the Creature INORGANIC Castle ALIEN: Organic, Giger's Alien, INORGANIC Spaceship and so on..

I like to partecipate also to lighting challenges and Tutorials-Workshop from 2d forum. Is there a possibility not to have ALL challenges at the SAME time ? Frankstein challenge and #7 Lighting challenge started togheter and for example I have to make a choice if a wanted to sleep for some hours at night :)


Hope to see some comments about this by Roberto ;)
Jojo

RobertoOrtiz
10-06-2006, 01:47 PM
well, this challenge started with two divisions. one organic modeling and another hard-surface modeling. for organic modeling, any kind of anatomy is a must i think because in real world if you go to a job interview for a modeler position in game/film industry they would want to see if you can model realistic human figure both male and female and also realistic animals/creature with good anatomy.

I understand your concerns, and they will be addressed.
Som future challengs will be:

CITY BLOCK

You will be tasked with modeling a city block in your hometown. You have to model everything down to the street signs. You will have one month.

MASTERCOPY

I will post more challenges based on classical art pieces. One idea is to do 3 week long challenges based on the most famous a pieces of a famous sculptor/painter.
An example of a challenge would be called Vermeer's world. Where you would sculpt 3 models based on the famous artist pieces...

ZOOLOGY

Another future challenges will be called Zoology, and people will have to model from a list
of animals.




that is another great point! I know when i modeled all my models i had reference pics i used to model from. and thats part of a good challenge! I get what you are talking about now! everyone ought to use the same reference pics.

For future challenges Ill be more specific about the references...

The last challenge had really great entries even if IMHO there are two things that should be clarified...since this are MODELLING challenges textures should be OPTIONAL and probably for "fair" competition avoided.. I mean everyone is free to post in a PERSONAL thread his works but, c'mon, when you have seen a so beautiful renderer is not possible to judge ONLY the model.



I will take the texturing rule into consideration, when I re-write the rules...


Why dont' post both ORGANIC and INORGANIC at one time and give partecipants choice to choose. For example I mean I will never "dare" to partecipate to an organic competion
but an inorganic on the same topic could be good for training.
For example TOPIC, ROMAN AGE :ORGANIC Julio Cesar Head sculpture, INORGANIC Roman Temple FRANKSTEIN: ORGANIC Head of the Creature INORGANIC Castle ALIEN: Organic, Giger's Alien, INORGANIC Spaceship and so on..

I like to partecipate also to lighting challenges and Tutorials-Workshop from 2d forum. Is there a possibility not to have ALL challenges at the SAME time ? Frankstein challenge and #7 Lighting challenge started togheter and for example I have to make a choice if a wanted to sleep for some hours at night :)


I want to switch between inorganic and organic challenges. Sometime I will post some hybrid challenges...


Anyway lets keep the comments coming.

-R

fx81
10-13-2006, 02:31 PM
hi Roberto, just wanted to know if you can give an idea when the next challenge will be, and i hope it is organic modeling because the last two were mostly hard-surface.

anyways, i was looking at several vermeer paintings and in my opinion they do not have really that much of organic modeling except the heads. other than that its mostly environment and cloth modeling. other than modeling, they would also require good texturing and lighting. so, personally i dont think vermeers count as organic modeling or even hardcore modeling.

on the other hand, someone here also suggested boris vallejo's work. which i think could be a great subject for organic modeling.

however, instead of copying mr. boris' work exactly, we can have one unified story(supplied by you obviously :) ) and the challenge would be to take characters from any of his works and model them and pose them in a scene to convey that unified story. so we would only be using his works as guidelines for the anatomy, proportions etc.

however, if you plan on doing the likeness of a real person, then im in too.

RobertoOrtiz
10-13-2006, 03:06 PM
Well if we are going to go with fantasy paintings, I would go from the guy who inspired Boris, Frank Frazetta.


Considering how kickass his work is, we could try it, but keep in mind, contrary to the work of masters, they might be copyright issues (something we have to keep an eye on)
,so this brings me to this idea...

on the other hand, someone here also suggested boris vallejo's work. which i think could be a great subject for organic modeling.

however, instead of copying mr. boris' work exactly, we can have one unified story(supplied by you obviously :) ) and the challenge would be to take characters from any of his works and model them and pose them in a scene to convey that unified story. so we would only be using his works as guidelines for the anatomy, proportions etc.

however, if you plan on doing the likeness of a real person, then im in too.


What do you guys think?

-R

morphius-ms
10-13-2006, 05:33 PM
Considering how kickass his work is, we could try it, but keep in mind, contrary to the work of masters, they might be copyright issues (something we have to keep an eye on), so this brings me to this idea...

on the other hand, someone here also suggested boris vallejo's work. which i think could be a great subject for organic modeling.

however, instead of copying mr. boris' work exactly, we can have one unified story(supplied by you obviously :) ) and the challenge would be to take characters from any of his works and model them and pose them in a scene to convey that unified story. so we would only be using his works as guidelines for the anatomy, proportions etc.

however, if you plan on doing the likeness of a real person, then im in too.

Ok my 2 cents. I undertand copying master's works, or styles, that is great. And personally I like Boris Vallejo's work/style as well. But what I am getting from this part isn't just a modeling challenge, it sounds like a major challenge (like the EON Challenge). Now I can understand doing something like this, and that is what this forum is all about, but this sounds like a CGTalk challenge rather than a hardcore modeling challenge.

EDIT: HERE IS A LINK FOR ALL OF YOU WITH BORIS VALLEJO'S WORK:
http://fantasy.mrugala.net/Boris%20Vallejo/page_01.htm but this is all fantasy I think we should stick to real life influental(spelling) figures, or we could go for greek/roman mythology (your own interpretations of the creatures, in a certain style for example Boris Vallejo's).

As for the car thing, I would go all out for that. As for the car type I would choose the Bugatti Veyron (for those of you who don't know what car that is go to YouTube.com and look for Top Gear with Veyron (It's a good TV show (a car show) in England)). Or you could just go to this link HERE (http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/morphius_ms/veyron06_06.jpg) The challenge with this car would be finding the necessary references (atleast I think) since I highly doubt that anyone could afford the $1.7 million for even just the base car(no extras).

I think maybe we could just stick to likenesses/environments/props... and not go for a still life-like render. Then again now that I think about it what you are talking about mashru is only copying the style and not the actual painting/characters (am I getting this right?), or would it be using the characters that Boris created and making a completely different story?

One idea would be to find something that noone has envisioned yet and make a challenge out of envisioning that (kinda like what the EON Challenge is like(from what I get of it) but not on the render) But focus on the modeling not the texturing(though technically part of the model is texturing) and rendering? Or just stick to real life things, or copies of masters? But ultimately it is up to Roberto.

fx81
10-13-2006, 06:06 PM
artoworks of both frank and boris have good anatomy for human/creatures and good figurative gestures, which is what we can use as reference and then make our own models for any time period we want.

they can be futuristic, contemporary or mythologic. what remains constant is good figurative proportions/anatomy which are same for any age and time. therefore, we dont copy any style or anything.

doing a likeness can be very good learning experience for head modeling and observation. environments and props modeling can become very relaxed and non-hardcore with any solid reference. and it can also make hardcore mean more models in less time rather than few, very quality models in less time. it all depends on what one considers "hardcore" modeling.

the EON challenge obviously involves almost every aspect of CG. the HMC however is only for modeling but with less stress to story telling and more stress to learning form/scale/anatomy in 3d and improving your modeling skills to apply that. at least thats my interpretation.

btw, this is also another of Boris' site with almost all of his illustrations in good resolution:
http://hebuss.free.fr/

RobertoOrtiz
10-14-2006, 01:46 PM
I am on a hurry, so I can post on all your ideas.

One idea I want to throw in the mix, is to start a point system,
and we could keep an ongoing tally.

1 point per entry
10 points if you finish a challenge
20 points if you win a challenge kind of thing.


That way at the end of the year we could crown a modelling master.



-R

MrJames
10-29-2006, 12:36 PM
Whats going on with this challenge nowadays?

RobertoOrtiz
10-29-2006, 04:21 PM
We are finishing the current Frankenstin castle.

Keep an eye on this thread.

-R

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