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Solomon
09-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Hi guys,

here is a link to what I am trying to achieve

How was this done - and how can I get waves that hit a foamy shoreline and then receding - like a tide rising and falling - and how can I control the size of the animated waves so my guys can wade in and not look like they should be swept away

Basically I want to reproduce this effect - but on a more gentler coastline for a scuba landing

http://www.belino.net/drafts/Island_480x270.php3

IvanB
09-22-2006, 12:06 AM
Check this link...

http://www.esnips.com/web/foamy-shoreline-tute

Make the water an animated procedural terrain (I believe) there's presets for ocean wave type stuff in the function editor, and you can animate the width of the faom.

BoBoZoBo
09-25-2006, 03:06 PM
The B in IvanB is for BOMB - Your the bomb dude!

You and I need to have a chat!

IvanB
09-26-2006, 10:37 AM
Hey buddy...Thanks!!

How can I help you?
I'm just about to make a video tute, with regards to the ocean..should be uploaded in a few hours...I'm also going to create a small tute on illumination baking, I think it'll be a big help for some.
Ivan.

IvanB
09-27-2006, 03:17 PM
Hi, Me again..

The ocean video tute is available..."ocean.mov"

http://www.esnips.com/web/foamy-shoreline-tute

rgdigital
09-27-2006, 07:29 PM
You are the man, Ivan!! Thank you so much for your tutorials!

IvanB
09-30-2006, 02:15 PM
Thanks people!!!

I have another tute on "Floating Ecosystem" (You know boxes floating on ocean belino.net)
Heres the link to all my tutes..check the "floating eco" folder.


http://www.esnips.com/UserProfileAction.ns?id=40dacfe2-91ce-475f-84e5-1805f766e6b9

Ivan.

BoBoZoBo
10-17-2006, 04:48 AM
Hey Ivan. The tutorial is no longer there and I did not get a chance to see it. Would only let me see one.

How can I get them?

Thx

TheNeverman
10-17-2006, 04:58 AM
Folder not accessible The folder you requested is currently not accessible or was deleted. Please make sure that the web address below is correct and try again. http://www.esnips.com/web/foamy-shoreline-tute

Hi, Me again..

The ocean video tute is available..."ocean.mov"

http://www.esnips.com/web/foamy-shoreline-tute

IvanB
10-17-2006, 05:36 AM
Try this link, its a link to all the tute folders, There all still there, nothing has been deleted. The site was unavailable the other day, must have made some changes..I tried the above link and got the same message...try this one.

Video tutes (http://www.esnips.com/UserProfileAction.ns?id=40dacfe2-91ce-475f-84e5-1805f766e6b9)

Ivan.

calilifestyle
10-17-2006, 06:07 AM
Plezzz stop Ivan your tuts are great your going to put them 3rd parties out of a job. lol for real thnx a lot i just go around to see some of your newer ones sweet and dang man your the bomb for doing this. thnx for helping some of out like this



Ok dang guy you have sytheyes tuts when did you put this up. I always felt like buy this and just didnt know if i want to or how easy it is to use ... crazy you sold me on it you made everthing look so easy:thumbsup: man can i request some hehe

IvanB
10-17-2006, 09:59 AM
Calilifestyle...Dude your welcome!..Eveyone is welcome.
I'm glad they help!

I'm constantly adding more tutes, but its a bit hard to tell eveyone, If theres something you think I can help with..I'll give it a crack.

I dont want to put the 3rd party dudes out of business http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon11.gif .But tutes like mine should be free..Without having a go at e-on, It would be awsome if they made them in the first place...I could go on about this but I wont!!

Ivan.

abudabi
10-18-2006, 09:51 AM
Ivane, kako si?

IvanB
10-18-2006, 01:20 PM
abudabi...Dobro fala..i ti?..LOL!!http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Cant stop laughing!..Where you from?

abudabi
10-18-2006, 06:20 PM
:) hahahaha
...iz Hrvatske!
Sad se sigurno jos vise smijes!:bounce:

BoBoZoBo
10-18-2006, 06:31 PM
IvanB!

I don't know what I am doing wrong here. I followed your instructions to the "T" and I keep getting this bizzare result.

It only seems to happen in the animation portion. I set the keyframes for a test of 5 seconds and it only seems to render a few frames, with the resto of the frames rendering as if the procedural terrain is not there.

Very strange, check out the videos:

Video 1 (http://www.advancedperceptions.net/Misc/Untitled1.avi)
Video 2 (http://www.advancedperceptions.net/Misc/Untitled.avi)

What I am doing wrong. Each video was rendered on different systems/installations of vue using different files.

KAMAKAZZI
10-18-2006, 07:58 PM
Ivan,

I just want to let you know that your free tuts are totally awesome. I cant believe stuff like this isnt offered on the e-on site nor the cornucopia site.

You totally cover the basics and some. You totally made a spark in my brain to make the gears turn faster. If you ever make a commercial tutorial, let me know. I will buy that from you just because its you making it. You should see if E-on can contract you out on making more tuts.

Keep up the excellent work!!!

Let me know if anything else is new or if help is needed.

-Cypher-



---Gotta love nice people----

IvanB
10-19-2006, 09:05 AM
Hey People,

Bobozobo...Its weird, I also have had that happen to me, However it only happens when I use a script...Which tute are you following and which script are you using if at all?..that way I can try it, and see whats happens.

Cypher..Thankyou Sir...That is very kind of you, However ALL MY tutes will be FREE!, as I make them, I try to let people know.
I would love to make tutes for E-on, but I would think they would want someone with more knowledge and experience. I offered my tutes for the cornucopia classroom, and was asked to send a link, and did...Dont know if they got it..Oh well.

abudabi...LOL, cant stop laughing...pozdavimi moji roditelji..imaji u Zagreb i u Vincovci ako si blizo...HEHE...(my cro is crap..sorry.)

Thanks again all......Bobozobo, get back to me.

Ivan.

abudabi
10-19-2006, 09:21 AM
Pozdrav Ivane!

Ill think we will meet soon, Im having plans of geting Vue soon!
:-)

BoBoZoBo
10-19-2006, 03:24 PM
IvanB -

I am not using ANY script at all, not that I know of... LOL, im not that good.
I just make the terrain as you describe in the tutes and texture it using a basic water texture and try to do a small test render and that is what I get. Sometimes it renders more frames of water than blank, sometimes more blank.

Im at a loss.

KAMAKAZZI
10-19-2006, 06:47 PM
"I would love to make tuts for E-on, but I would think they would want someone with more knowledge and experience."


What are you talking about, you showed more of the basics and some compared to other tutorials offered on E-on (Like Aisle FX tuts and their commercial vids). Dont degrade yourself with such a comment. In this business, you will always learn something new for its a must if you want to stay on top. An experienced 3D artist will tell you, you can never be too experienced.

I tell you what, do you at least have a way for us appreciative peers to donate some dough?

You really deserve something out of all this work.

Anyhow, keep up the excellent techniques.

If you know of integrating techniques of this pipeline:

ZBrush, Vue 5 Inf, RealFlow, Lightwave, and Messiah...

Let me know.

You pretty much covered the Lightwave and Vue bid. Any other input of the other softwares?

I pretty much know how to integrate between the 5 softies but I also know there is no one way street on accomplishing such integrated scenes.

Thanks Ivan and I will conduct some Vue tests later on and if troubled, I got you on my buddy list if thats okay.

Thanks again,

Cypher

BoBoZoBo
10-20-2006, 01:41 AM
OK, I am at a total loos for the ocean terrain


I have tried different textures and I have no scripts what so ever but I cannot seem to get it to render in each fram... its driving me NUTZ!!!

Anyone have a clue?

IvanB
10-20-2006, 08:37 AM
Hey all,

KAMAKAZZI....Your a champion...Heres my swiss bank account.1254..just kidding! lol..No need for donations, Its FREE FREE FREE!..I'm happy to create the tutes, as I learn so much by making them, and thats good enough for me...I refer to my own tutes at times, that way I dont have to try to remember stuff.

IF I can help with Lightwave or vue..I'm happy too!.. I'll definatly give it a go!.

I have no idea about the other software mentioned..I'm still trying to get my head around LW & Vue!..so much to learn..so little time...

Feel free to ask..I like a challenge.

BOBOZOBO..My friend, it looks to me to be (and I'm not sure) the type of format your trying to save it too..Are you saving images (bmp, jpg) or quicktime videos..mpgs etc?..Have you tried different formats?..
Can you post the scene to me?..I'm happy to check it out, and see what I can do..That way we can at least determine weather or not your vue is working correctly etc.

Ivan.

Gitch
10-20-2006, 07:33 PM
Thanks Ivan for your expertise and time very much appreciated .

synergy543
10-20-2006, 08:46 PM
Feel free to ask..I like a challenge

Hi Ivan,

Since you suggested,... here are a few challenges for us all:

1) Optimizing best and efficient render settings. I've noticed that lighting seems to be as important or not more important that render settings in terms of quality. Throwing in a few good lights is like boosting rendering to Super. However, still many render options are still baffling and extremely time-consuming to test (particularly with animation - like eliminating jitter). So which ones are the most important?

2) Optimizing animation workflow - Setting up animation camera motion and testing for camera position, lighting, jitter and quality throughout an animation. Sketching is good but doesn't show very much. Upping the quality significantly increases render times. So what is the best balance to optimize an animation workflow?

I ask because I did a little 12 sec test throwing a ship onto Phoul's ocean to see if I could create waves on the bow as it does on the island (didn't really work). And the silly little 160 x 120 test scene took 40 hours to render. To render a single large size of the last frame to check lighting and quality took 10 hours. So I'm facing some serious workflow obstacles to doing animation with Vue. I do have a few ideas myself (such as rendering only select parts of a scene or select objects. But still there must be some important tips I'm still missing. FWIW, here's the little clip I was testing:

http://home.comcast.net/~synergy543/HMSVictoryTest_H264.mov

Any suggestions on how to make white water on the ships bow and trail? I was thinking maybe an invisible terrain might work?

Well again,I've greatly enjoyed your tutorial videos so far - its been great fun.

Thank,

Greg

IvanB
10-21-2006, 04:02 AM
Hey all,

Gitch...Your welcome!

Greg..Where do I begin..Cool video..looks great.

Ok..first up, the bow wake..The reason there is no wake is because there isnt anything under the water near the bow (Distance to object below).mirroring the ship,or creating terrain and placing it under the ship will give you a wake (with the foamy shoreline technique)...I would go with the terrain, as you can shape it to match..Have you seen the tute?..there is a video on how to do that called "boat wake"

With regards to the rendering..IMO from testing like crazy!..is REFLECTIONS and TRANSPERENCY are the render killers!..I dont think its necessary to have transperency or reflections, when in the middle of the ocean..I have seen movies and payed attention to see..no real trans or reflections..particularly when ther is motion blurr!..I just make the surface shinny with highlights...Check the clip I made..nothing special! ocean (http://www.esnips.com/doc/1fa6bd29-01f0-4256-ba5c-6198503532b0/ocean-wavesTO33a.mov)
It took 4 hours to render with 5 pc's..

To get your camera postions. I would recommend using basic textures, as they render quick..I click on the camera view and play the animation, which gives me a pretty good idea of the postion and movement of the camera, but basic textures and low quality renders is what I do..The lighting part of things, is definatly my biggest weakness, and I have been doing a lot of research lately to get my head around it.
You probably dont need to touch your textures, but you can turn off a whole buch of stuff in the render setting,to do a quick test.

These are the things I do..they may not be the best things to do, but it works for ME...Maybe others can add to this....Please DO!

What do you mean about jitter..do you mean flicker?, there are some things you can do...Motion Blurr is definatly one of them..as our eyes would see it like that in the real world.

I might do a tute, trying to show how to speed up the work flow..I need to think.

Another good thing to do is..Go to the Cornucopia site and purchase Pilipe's scenes..there only a few dollars each...That way you can breakdown the scene..Render settings etc...Highly recommend doing that...I have learn heaps from them. I'm sure he did many more tests then I..Check his render settings.

Ivan.

synergy543
10-21-2006, 05:44 AM
Ok..first up, the bow wake..The reason there is no wake is because there isnt anything under the water near the bow (Distance to object below).mirroring the ship,or creating terrain and placing it under the ship will give you a wake (with the foamy shoreline technique)...I would go with the terrain, as you can shape it to match..Have you seen the tute?..there is a video on how to do that called "boat wake"

Wow! I didn't see that but that's exactly what I need and you've already done it. Too cool!

With regards to the rendering..IMO from testing like crazy!..is REFLECTIONS and TRANSPERENCY are the render killers!..I dont think its necessary to have transperency or reflections, when in the middle of the ocean..I have seen movies and payed attention to see..no real trans or reflections..particularly when ther is motion blurr!..I just make the surface shinny with highlights...Check the clip I made..nothing special! ocean (http://www.esnips.com/doc/1fa6bd29-01f0-4256-ba5c-6198503532b0/ocean-wavesTO33a.mov)
It took 4 hours to render with 5 pc's..

Good tips to know. Thanks. 5 PCs eh? I have a mixture of Macs and PCs and I've had some problems getting Hypervue tiles to line up correctly. Not sure what's going on (there aren't a lot of parameters I can check really) but its pretty much limited me to rendering on one PC at a time until I can find an answer. Also, if I use Vue on my G5 to run HyperVue and render on my Dell for example, I can't use Vue on the G5 for anything else while the Dell is rendering (but its does leave CPU cycles to run other apps). So how do you manage workflow and rendering? My plan was to render a select number of frames per night with HyperVue and leave the Vue app available in the daytime for working on scenes and such. However, its also very hard to exactly predict how long renders will take. So sometimes I find myself waiting in the morning for a machine to finish so I'll drink some more coffee! And while I working in Vue, I can't have the other machines rendering or can I? Do I need a second copy of Vue? But then copy-righted items tied to my license wouldn't be available to a second copy...so I don't see a good solution here.


To get your camera postions. I would recommend using basic textures, as they render quick..I click on the camera view and play the animation, which gives me a pretty good idea of the postion and movement of the camera, but basic textures and low quality renders is what I do..The lighting part of things, is definatly my biggest weakness, and I have been doing a lot of research lately to get my head around it.
You probably dont need to touch your textures, but you can turn off a whole buch of stuff in the render setting,to do a quick test.

These are the things I do..they may not be the best things to do, but it works for ME...Maybe others can add to this....Please DO!

There was a technique in LW (possibly Eki's or Brad Peeblers) where you could create very fast colorful spinning lights that would simulate global ambience but render much more quickly. I wonder if this technique is also possible with Vue? I think it required motion blur to be on as it would composite lighting differences in sub-frames. However, for some reason, I can't render in Hypervue when motion blur is turned on. So even if this worked, I don't know how useful it would be for animation. [Hope I explained that correctly]

What do you mean about jitter..do you mean flicker?, there are some things you can do...Motion Blurr is definatly one of them..as our eyes would see it like that in the real world.

Yes, texture flicker and thin lines seem to be problems with animation. Thin lines (such as ship ropes) don't render properly no matter what I've done. Other programs such as Max and LW seem to handle these much better. Or is there a solution? Others have mentioned similar problems here on this forum but I don't know if a definitive solution has been found. Ultimately, someone from E-on would address these more technical problems. But they don't seem to be active in the forums.

I might do a tute, trying to show how to speed up the work flow..I need to think.
That would be super! Vue's power seems to lie in its animation capabilities but high quality animation seems to be so elusive for many probably mostly because its rather tedious and time-consuming. Vue sort of straddles on the fence between hobby and pro in this respect. However, in the right hands and with the right settings, its clearly very capable at producing profesional quality animation too. So a tutorial on improving workflow would be excellent.

Another good thing to do is..Go to the Cornucopia site and purchase Pilipe's scenes..there only a few dollars each...That way you can breakdown the scene..Render settings etc...Highly recommend doing that...I have learn heaps from them. I'm sure he did many more tests then I..Check his render settings.

Ivan.

Thanks I have downloaded these but have yet to analyze them as I'm in the middle of a project deadline right now. I was hoping to read a discussion about his techniques on the forums but have yet to see any comments yet. One thing that impresses me about Philips work is he approaches his animations with the eye of a film director rather than an animator. So I'm not sure its as much technique as aesthetics choices. But clearly some of the film concepts could be quantified and defined. I hope to see a discussion (or tutorial?) about this from others who know more about this. Certainly a forum discussion would be a great place to start.

Thanks for all your helpful and timely tips!

Greg

IvanB
10-21-2006, 08:10 AM
Hey Greg,

with regards to the render farm..I'm not sure about the mixing of Mac and Pc..I'm a pc user..Sorry, In Lightwave for example, you can setup a render farm so that the host is left for you to keep working on, while the other pc's render..I wouldn't think this is possible with vue, as the other pc's are getting the info.."Scene & Textures" from the host..In lightwave, you basically put the program folder on each pc and setup a shared folder to store the scene textures etc..leaving the host free..(theres a bit more to it, but you get the idea)..

The best way to render, is to render out images, that way you can stop when ever you like and continue on from where you left off. Render at night..work during the day. From my understanding you can have vue setup on a desktop and laptop...For example work on laptop and setup render farm from the desktop or vise versa..

...Found this on the e-on site....FAQ.
"Can I install a node-locked license of Vue on both my main computer and, say, my laptop?

Yes, you'll simply need to activate the license for your laptop as well.

Note: it is your responsibility to ensure that you comply with the terms of the EULA (in particular, that you only run one instance of the program simultaneously)."



Motion blur, with regards to hypervue is a bit funny...The hypervue is grey'd out if you try to use Hybrid 2.5, and when you change it Dist ray tracing it becomes available..Aparantly it doesn't like hybrid...BUT, I found if you leave it to Hybrid 2.5..dont worry about checking Hypervue (cos you can't) and go to the "Render Animation options" it lets you check Hypervue and renders Hybrid 2.5 motion blurr...I need a tiny bit more testing to confirm this 100%...I'm 99.99% sure!

The flicker..oh well..Phillep's setting are good for that..have a look..Motion blurr, high anti-alaising will fix that, however render times increase http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon9.gif..I want to make a tute on this, but kida feel like I'd be ripping him off..If you know what I mean...
I have been able to reduce the flicker some what, but there is too many variables..ie: amount of trees, textures, reflections, transperencies, objects etc, all these contribute to longer render times..So if I said, heres a flicker free tree that took 30 seconds to render with these settings, add those other things, and everything changes.

The thin lines..A guy made a thread about this ( you've probably seen it)..it was huge..He couldn't for the life of him resolve that issue..at least I dont think so..He tried everything..He had antenas on a building that would disapere...This where I would use Lightwave and Vue.

Man I hope some of this has helped...I'm really hoping a lot of this is resolved in Vue 6..I think it has...I Can't wait!!

Ivan.

synergy543
10-21-2006, 10:15 AM
Hi Ivan,

Your suggestions do help a great deal! Particularly your suggestion of using the laptop to manage the renderfarm during the day. I hope I can still use all of my copy-protected items from Cornucopia. I'll have to give this a try.

Rendering animation frames to images of course is essential to keep one from going mad.

Interesting tip about getting motion blur to work with HyperVue. I'll have to play with this.

I couldn't imagine Philip having a problem with your making a tutorial on reducing flicker in animations. Of course, you could always ask him if you could include some pointers you've picked up in return for mentioning his animations peope can buy! Win-win for everyone. I think we're kind of all in this together figuring out the best ways to use Vue. And really, there aren't that many of us.

Well thanks for all your help. I have some great ideas to try. I think Vue opens some wonderful animation possibilities for individuals. Remember it was probably over 10 years ago that a group of pioneers got together using Bryce to make Planetary Traveler. So with Vue and faster computers surely there is a lot to explore!

Cheers,

Greg

BoBoZoBo
10-21-2006, 05:26 PM
RENDER FARMS

As far as Hyper View, I have 5 PCs (4 towers +1 Laptop) networked together and we use at is a renderfarm for Maya and recently Vue 5 Inf. The main workstation is a dual core.

I simply set up 1 node of rendercow on each system, including the one i am working on with Vue. Each copy of vue happens to come with a redercow licnese for 5 systems. So it is pretty effective for just one copy of Vue.

When I am ready to render I render using all 5 systems, and I continue to work on the main workstation. It does a pretty damn good job for the most part, I wish other 3D apps were as easy.

For the most part, with the right settings for the job, it works great. Though there is one major caveat:

It works best whith a fresh boot. If you have been working on the systems and rendering test runs, it is best to restart all instances of Vue and Rendercow beofre the final render.

PS - Render stills instead of movies, as other have said, much more effective and fewer problems with wasted sessions.


MOTION BLURR

As far as the motion blurr and other effects. Yes.. it is a MAJOR Pain in the ARSE!!! and it better done in other application. Let me echo what the other poster said and say that there was a discussion about that in these forums a while back.

I was a a part of it, and the basic conclusion was that Vue is not well shuited for motion blurr of Depth of field and that such effects were better acheived using other compositing and editing applications such as Shake and After effects. You would need to render out G-buffer/multipass layers and use the ones you needed for the effects you wanted, such as Z depth for Depth of Field effects.

Vue can technically do it, but you would need to put the settings so high that rendering even 10 seconds was impractical. You can get better results much quicker using compositing and effects for post production.


OTHER

I completely agree with your sentiments that this program straddels the fence between extream hobbyest and pro, at least in a "one package" program. I think a general guide - tutorial to improve workflow alltogether would be phenominal, part of my business is consulting with graphic and media companies on workflow. As far as I am concerned, after raw talent, effective workflow is the next most important thing in our field.

I would love to collaborate with you guys on this, I think with enough people we could produce a great product for the community.

We should establish some sort of chat meeting.



PS - Still cant get than damn ocean to do its thing!

mattmax
05-26-2007, 01:40 PM
cheers for the tutes ivan, really helps to clears things quite a lot for vue learners.
whats would be the possible way to download those movies without streaming it off the website.

cheers

IvanB
05-26-2007, 02:07 PM
Hi Matt,

Your welcome,

Here's almost all of those tutes in quicktime format (you need QT pro to download..i think)

http://resources.advancedperceptions.net/Tutorials/Vue/

Ivan.

oceanmovieclip
05-30-2007, 12:48 AM
Ivan, the trial version is limited since I couldn't follow your foam tutorial. When you spoke of the functions, distrubution, etc

IvanB
05-30-2007, 12:04 PM
Hi Myblueocean,

I dont have the trial version installed, so I'm not sure, I would have thought these functions were standard, not something they would disable. Can you be a little more specific and we'll see if we can work it out.

Are you using vue 5 or vue 6 trial, as the videos were done with 5 and 6's fuction editor is SLIGHTLY different, but everything is still there. Heres an image of vue6 function editor setup. One thing I found is that the input node plays up a bit, sometimes when selected the options for that node disapere http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon9.gif BUG!... canot choose "distance below" it loads as "angle of incidence" and wont let you change... i'm confused.

Ivan.

PS: got your PM.

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