CGTalk - Editorial: Wii: Failure Is Not An Option

P_T

09-19-2006, 03:12 PM

Multi-platform ports are not going to sell the Wii. Exclusive titles specifically designed for the Wii-mote are what will drive sales.Yeah, I pretty much said the same thing in the Wii thread. Specially with a lot of the ports are kiddy games based on 3D feature animations like Open Season, Barnyard etc. They may be fun to watch but they're not the kind of games that gamers would spend money on a console for.

If the developers are thinking to dump their kiddy games on a Nintendo console, which already is stereotyped as a kiddy console, then they're not helping at all. They really do need to make exclusive titles or at least some kind of offshoot from their existing franchise just for the Wii. Kind of like Resident Evil Zero for the Dreamcast... though that game didn't really help Dreamcast either. :D

vrf

09-19-2006, 03:15 PM

Multi-platform ports are not going to sell the Wii. Exclusive titles specifically designed for the Wii-mote are what will drive sales. This situation is extremely similar to the DS. When DS came out, everyone (including me) thought the DS was going to fail miserably for the very same reasons. Then titles like Nintendogs showed up, which were flat out impossible to do anywhere else and proved the value of the systems unique features. The rest is history. DS owns japan and is quickly taking over worldwide. Whether or not Wii can do the same depends on if a similar killer app can show up.

What he said.

Nintendo needs to head into the same Blue Ocean that they're in with the DS. It's lonely water, of course, but the DS showed it can work.

puckducker

09-19-2006, 03:20 PM

Dropping the use of a standard controller is fine, but not every game lends itself to being controlled in a motion sensitive way.

But they aren't dropping the use of the standard controller at all. Not only is there a standard "SNES" style controler made for the system that could be taken advantage of, but the Wii is also has 4 controler ports to plug the Gamecube controllers into.

The new Smash Bros game won't be using the motion senstive Wii-mote as they stated that the control style doesn't fit what they want to do with smash bros. So they are still making the game to be controlled with the GC controller, and I assume it will controller very similarly to Melee.

P_T

09-19-2006, 03:29 PM

But they aren't dropping the use of the standard controller at all. Not only is there a standard "SNES" style controler made for the system that could be taken advantage of, but the Wii is also has 4 controler ports to plug the Gamecube controllers into.That's not a problem at all for SSB and other exclusive Nintendo games. The problem comes when you got a ported game that looks better in other console. If they're just simply porting it to Wii which has weaker graphic without taking advantage of Wiimote, there's very little, if any, reason to buy it.

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 03:32 PM

The DS has already seen titles like Super Mario 64 of Mario Kart fail to take advantage of the dual or touch screen factors of the system, simply because neither feature would have added anything to the core experience.

You know, when I've said this in the past, I was flamed. It's good to see someone besides myself saw this issue. Granted, the games were very good but it's still an issue of the game not utilizing the hardware. As for Nintendogs not being possible anywhere else, how exactly? Tell me how a palm pilot can't do this game?

But as for the topic at hand. I want to remain hopeful. I do, however, see the same trend that all but killed the PSPs market viability. That of the "wiimakes" for lack of a better term. My only hopes are that people will not support these efforts, thus forcing companies to either rethink their Wii efforts or at least leave the console alone for the truly innovative titles. The handheld markets pretty much proves Nintendo just doesn't know how to say no to a bad game just so long as they have the money to publish.

But I do see some interesting Wii games on the horizon that goes beyond the wiimake mold. I personally cannot wait for a Samba De Amigo sequel or even a new Ouendon game for the Wii.

puckducker

09-19-2006, 03:37 PM

That's not a problem at all for SSB and other exclusive Nintendo games. The problem comes when you got a ported game that looks better in other console. If they're just simply porting it to Wii which has weaker graphic without taking advantage of Wiimote, there's very little, if any, reason to buy it.

Hardly. The multi-console ports, with few exceptions, all sold best on the PS2, even though virtually all of them had superior visuals and sound on the GC and Xbox versions. It's all about the install base.

P_T

09-19-2006, 03:44 PM

Hardly. The multi-console ports, with few exceptions, all sold best on the PS2, even though virtually all of them had superior visuals and sound on the GC and Xbox versions. It's all about the install base.True, but the difference of graphic between Wii and PS3/360 is probably going to be a lot more noticable than between the last gen's 3 consoles.

dcndnts

09-19-2006, 03:48 PM

That's not a problem at all for SSB and other exclusive Nintendo games. The problem comes when you got a ported game that looks better in other console. If they're just simply porting it to Wii which has weaker graphic without taking advantage of Wiimote, there's very little, if any, reason to buy it.

Sure the ported games look nicer on the other 2 sytems.. but dont forget the $$$ it will also take to get the nicer graphics... You really gotta pay to play. As of yet i havent been blown away by the 360 in the graphics department... hopefully the ps3 can deliver on the looks and the gameplay... but from what ive seen so far i cant say im to impressed.

P_T

09-19-2006, 03:59 PM

Sure the ported games look nicer on the other 2 sytems.. but dont forget the $$$ it will also take to get the nicer graphics... You really gotta pay to play. As of yet i havent been blown away by the 360 in the graphics department... hopefully the ps3 can deliver on the looks and the gameplay... but from what ive seen so far i cant say im to impressed.Don't forget the Xbox Live online service and the possibly free one from Sony. Seems like online feature is almost a must in a western game and that will sway gamers as well. I honestly don't know anything about Nintendo's online service apart from the ability to download classic games. Edit: and the internet browsing with Opera.

Not only that, MS is cutting their price too IIRC, and games can only look better as the coders learn new tricks to coax performance out of the consoles and it's HD vs non HD we're talking about here.

ParamountCell

09-19-2006, 04:44 PM

But they aren't dropping the use of the standard controller at all. Not only is there a standard "SNES" style controler made for the system that could be taken advantage of, but the Wii is also has 4 controler ports to plug the Gamecube controllers into.

The new Smash Bros game won't be using the motion senstive Wii-mote as they stated that the control style doesn't fit what they want to do with smash bros. So they are still making the game to be controlled with the GC controller, and I assume it will controller very similarly to Melee.

For some reason most people seem to forget this...

puckducker

09-19-2006, 05:11 PM

I honestly don't know anything about Nintendo's online service apart from the ability to download classic games.

It's going to be modelled on the nintendo DS's wi-fi online abilities, which given their success there, online shouldn't be anything Nintendo needs to worry about. It'll be free though, whatever they end up doing.

hiphopcr

09-19-2006, 05:35 PM

True, but the difference of graphic between Wii and PS3/360 is probably going to be a lot more noticable than between the last gen's 3 consoles.
Yeah that's what I was gonna say... in fact, despite original reports starting the Wii would be 2-3 times more powerful than the Gamecube, from what I've read recently it seems the Wii is pretty much a souped up Gamecube, or Gamecube 1.5.

agreenster

09-19-2006, 05:38 PM

Yup.. the Weee needs more graphic intensive titles.

No they dont. Then they would just be another Xbox

Nintendo is in good shape--they've found their niche: unique gameplay

agreenster

09-19-2006, 05:46 PM

True, but the difference of graphic between Wii and PS3/360 is probably going to be a lot more noticable than between the last gen's 3 consoles.

Actually, most opinions point to the contrary. The law of diminishing returns is the culprit. Can you tell the difference between a 2 thousand vert character (PS2) and a 8 thousand vert character(Xbox)? Oh yeah. But can you tell the difference between a 6 thousand vert character (Wii) and a 16 thousand vert character (Xbox360)? Not really, only detail differences.

And after working in the industry for a couple years, Ive learned that the visual quality of games has SO much less to do with the hardware compared to what the developers put into it. Crappy arted and poor framerate games will come out on the XBox360, I guarantee it.

P_T

09-19-2006, 06:11 PM

It's going to be modelled on the nintendo DS's wi-fi online abilities, which given their success there, online shouldn't be anything Nintendo needs to worry about. It'll be free though, whatever they end up doing.That's good to hear. All online games I've played, with the exception of MMOs, have always been freely provided by the local ISPs and I don't really want to start paying now.

I've just watched a few Wii's videos from www.gametrailers.com (http://www.gametrailers.com) and it looks like they're gonna have some online services like weather and news as well as internet browsing with Opera, that seems a bit gimmicky to me. We'll see how much usage those features will get.

hiphopcr, I don't really care if Wii's just a souped up GC, if it offers me new kind of gameplay. I don't like semi aimbot in console FPS, blisters from button mashing and using analog pad for aiming or driving games. Nintendo's promising something new and I like it. I only said that because I think 3rd party developers can't afford to just arse their game ports because there's enough difference in the graphic to make people opt for the 360/PS3 version.

Edit: Might as well put my response in this post
Actually, most opinions point to the contrary. The law of diminishing returns is the culprit. Can you tell the difference between a 2 thousand vert character (PS2) and a 8 thousand vert character(Xbox)? Oh yeah. But can you tell the difference between a 6 thousand vert character (Wii) and a 16 thousand vert character (Xbox360)? Not really, only detail differences. Now I don't work in game industry so pardon my ignorance. I just said that because I thought the HD res and the processing power would give the game better quality in terms of the AA, shading, textures, higher polycount etc. I just figure all these things would add up in the end.

As I said earlier too, the difference in power will be even more noticeable later when the coders learn new tricks to get more performance out of the PS3/360.

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 06:14 PM

Actually, most opinions point to the contrary. The law of diminishing returns is the culprit. Can you tell the difference between a 2 thousand vert character (PS2) and a 8 thousand vert character(Xbox)? Oh yeah. But can you tell the difference between a 6 thousand vert character (Wii) and a 16 thousand vert character (Xbox360)? Not really, only detail differences.

Umm, what? Since when does Xbox crank 4 times the performance of PS2? And, incidently, let's put your theory to the test.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/freshdevices/redsteel-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/mikeabundo/MGS4_Raiden.jpg

http://sawasho.com/blog/archives/images/super-mario-galaxy.jpg
http://www.ps3newsresource.com/games/ratchet-and-clank/ratchet-and-clank-3.jpg

Golly gee, they look positively indentical. Astounding... :D

Seriously though, don't downplay the graphical difference. Otherwise, Xbox 360's success is based entirely upon wican voodoo magiks. Because, let's face it kitten, it sure as hell wasn't the launch games. Microsoft managed to hype a console on what? Graphics. And yes, there is a significant leap up from Wii to 360 (or even PS3).

Qslugs

09-19-2006, 06:21 PM

wow didnt realze so may software engineers browsed cgtalk :)

Squash-n-Stretch

09-19-2006, 06:39 PM

No they dont. Then they would just be another Xbox

Nintendo is in good shape--they've found their niche: unique gameplay

HOWWWWW????

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I don't think the 360 is a relatively cheap console whose main 'gimmick' (if you will) is it's innovative control system.

I mean, I'm as much a Nintendo fan boy as the next Nintendo fan boy, but I look at Zelda and I hope that the Wii will offer a lot more graphically, very soon. And I think that looks better graphically then Red Steel (although the art direction and colour pallette is all over the place)

Seeing as we are on a 3D website, can someone offer an explanation as to why there seems to be this limitation? Are all the resources being pumped into the control issue? Or does the console not have the shader/polycount capability that the others do?

What a bitchy 400th post! :D

JohnD

09-19-2006, 06:56 PM

I don't know why the topic of how much more advanced the graphics will be on the wii keeps coming up. Since the wii first started being marketed, I don't ever recall the graphics being the main issue. What is going to sell the Wii is the new gameplay experience, and I for one am ready for that.

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 07:14 PM

Seeing as we are on a 3D website, can someone offer an explanation as to why there seems to be this limitation? Are all the resources being pumped into the control issue? Or does the console not have the shader/polycount capability that the others do?

Wii can best be described as a better Xbox, if you will. It's a step up but it's about as significant as a step up, power wise, as N64 over PSX. So yes, there will be a difference. However, the power difference between Wii and PS360 is akin to the difference between N64 and Dreamcast. It is a huge leap but it takes much more work to obtain that level. All you have to do to tell the power difference is to compare a vid of Too Human, GOW, or MGS4 with Project HAMMER or Red Steel.

That being said, however, for my money an art style is infinately more important that a technical achievement. That's why I just couldn't get into Oblivion but will play Okami, likely, until FFXII drops.

thoughtlesswhisper

09-19-2006, 07:15 PM

Umm, what? Since when does Xbox crank 4 times the performance of PS2? And, incidently, let's put your theory to the test.

Dude are you in any way serious? Or are you just being funny. ps2 is 200mhz. Xbox is 733. I take it you didnt know that because that is very close to four times as much. Not to mention the memory and hard drive storage issues.

The picture of red steel you have posted looks better than the shot of metal gear solid four as well. Again im not sure if you were serious. I cant tell which has more polies. You can see red steel is normal mapped. MGS seems to have pretty bland skin texture as well as bland lighting. Red steel scene is lit much nicer with rim lighting on the characters.

Its actually put a smile on my face because those 2 games look on par with each other (from those 2 screenshots).

I live for these kinds of posts, lol.

SunDog101

09-19-2006, 07:32 PM

I think the new controller won't be a stumbling block at all becuase even if players want to go out and get the traditional controller separately to play games the way they want its only going to be around $30 for an extra controller compared to the outrageous prices you would spend on a new Microsoft or Sony system just to get some spiced up graphics and more complex gameplay. I beleive Nintendo knows what they are doing and even if they lose some traditional gamers for whatever reason I'm sure the new gamers it gains from its new innovations will nicely replace the old school ones. I think Nintendos ideas about gaming may make some of us 3D graphics types a bit nervous since they are putting out a system that doesnt have much more graphics power than the previous one. Will super detailed graphics win out over new innovative control? It is only a matter of waiting and time will tell all.:)

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 07:57 PM

Dude are you in any way serious? Or are you just being funny. ps2 is 200mhz. Xbox is 733. I take it you didnt know that because that is very close to four times as much. Not to mention the memory and hard drive storage issues.
PS2 = 294MHz.
Xbox = 733 MHz.

aka, 2.5 times more powerful, supposedly but you'll be hard pressed to find that evidence in the software. Especially considering Onimusha featured 8-10k poly models and RE4 featured 10K (last I heard, I haven't read the post mortum) and the difference is night and day. The occasional title really struts Xbox's stuff but for the most part, it just equates to smoother running multiconsole releases and that I equate more to the memory rather than raw processor. As for the hard drive issue, what issue is that exactly? Only a handful of games took advantage of the hard drive aside from "custom soundtracks" that saved me many an hour of EA Trax on Burnout, so for that I'm grateful. There were definately games on PS2 that, technically, should not have been possible according to Lorne Lanning.

The picture of red steel you have posted looks better than the shot of metal gear solid four as well. Again im not sure if you were serious. I cant tell which has more polies. You can see red steel is normal mapped. MGS seems to have pretty bland skin texture as well as bland lighting. Red steel scene is lit much nicer with rim lighting on the characters.

God, I forgot you were around. I should have known better. No dynamic lighting in an outside scene equals bad. Okay, fine. Nah, I think my real issue was I picked a PS3 source image. There, this should make you happy.
http://www.bytesector.com/reviews/id-636/pic2.jpg

Squash-n-Stretch

09-19-2006, 08:09 PM

Ooh...ouch. Burn! :D

Now...if we could get those graphics with the gameplay experience of Wii...

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 08:21 PM

Now...if we could get those graphics with the gameplay experience of Wii...

More like if only we could get those graphics with a steady framerate. Every single super hyped graphical powerhouse released so far stutters like Porky Pig. I personally can't wait to laugh at Killzone with it's 2 frames per minute.

ParamountCell

09-19-2006, 08:42 PM

Well we can learn a few things from the past. For example the playstation was not as powerful as the n64 or the dreamcast yet none of those systems beat the playstation1 that generation. So we can see that power isnt everything.

On the other hand we should also remember the hype surrounding a certain newcomer to the hand held industry(psp), most people thought that Nintendo would be doomed but it was not and it still remains strong with the gba and also the ds. This shows us that just because there is allot of hype surrounding the wii, doesnt mean that it will win the next gen console race. Nintendo has decided to back out of the whole penis size comparison that goes on in the games industry, since it would be cheaper for them, apparantly they are the only ones who would be making a profit from what I hear, I could be wrong.
The games industry is an unpredictable beast and anything could happen. It is the way of the beast....

Squash-n-Stretch

09-19-2006, 08:49 PM

More like if only we could get those graphics with a steady framerate. Every single super hyped graphical powerhouse released so far stutters like Porky Pig. I personally can't wait to laugh at Killzone with it's 2 frames per minute.

Yeah, I agree. The only saving factor of Oblivions and the bush species native to Tamriel which magically only appears a few feet from the player is that I only have to witness it for 70% of the game at about 12fps.

agreenster

09-19-2006, 10:31 PM

Geez, you guys are angry. And fanboyish. Do you guys even work in the game industry?

I said nintendo found their NICHE, I didnt say they would take over. Do you know what a niche is?

And yes, the XBox was significantly more powerful than PS2. I didnt say it was 4 times more powerful, I was saying your characters could hve 4x the mount of polygons which is pretty accurate. You can save in other areas to compensate. It was an example.

But yeah, I still stand by my opinion that there is a law of diminishing returns. Seeing the pores on the skin of the hero character doesnt enhance my gameplay experence as significantly as a brand new input device like a Wiimote (or guitar for that matter). Do the 360 and PS3 have better graphics? Well of course. I wasnt arguing that. Im just saying it doesnt matter as much as it has in previous generation machines.

Its just my opinion, no need to reply all hostile, right mods? And dont call me kitten.

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 11:12 PM

Its just my opinion, no need to reply all hostile, right mods? And dont call me kitten.

Aww, you see. the "kitten" comment was meant to show that I'm not being an asshole, but rather a smart ass. That's my sarcastic nature. If it didn't come across properly, I apologize.

That being said, I do have to say I disagree on the graphics issue. To you and me, the graphics matter very little. As I stated before, an art style is what gets me going. I prefer ZOE universe to Chromehounds simply because Chromehounds has no real style. It's realism and realism gets outdated each time the bar gets raised. But here's the thing. You and me? Well, I think it's safe to say we are hardcore gamers. After all, here we are debating the significance of a new input device versus more "RAAAAWWWW PAAAWAAAR!." So as the market stands, you and I? Well, we don't really matter. Don't get me wrong. We will always be hear and parts of the market will retain their "screw those casual bastards" stance and continue to market towards us. But for the most part, we just don't matter.

We are a small percentage of the game buying public nowadays and, unfortunately, the power comes in the ability to appeal to the casual gamer. That, in essence, is where I felt Sony succeeded the most. They appealed to both but let's not debate that particular issue.

Now, when Xbox 360 dropped, it was hyped on advanced graphics and an "HD era" stance that many people in the line I was in had zero clue about but it meant the graphics were "dope yo!" Of the launch lineup, very few games lined up to the promise of graphics and PC gamers were already in a "been there, done that 2 years ago" state of mind thanks to titles like BFII, Half-Life 2, and FEAR. In fact, graphically, 360 was a rather ho hum experience around launch. Not even the super plastic ribboned hair of DOA4 was delivering like videos of GOW, GRAW, and Too Human. But it was the promise of graphics that pushed the initial hype. Just as it was when PS2 dropped. The promise of graphics yet delivery of inferior to Dreamcast launch titles pushed the consoles out the door. Now, during 360s launch, in a line of 30+ people, only three were talking about the gameplay changes that could be made with the additional power (and, incidently, I was one of them). That's over 90% so focused on graphics, the gameplay enhancements were not worth a damn thing.

Does that part have a point? Actually, yes. Because if you take the game buying majority (the ones who pass over DQVIII for 50 Cent and buy Maddem year after year) and show them two things. On one machine is the super advanced Gears of War or Resistance, whicever serves the purpose of hyping graphics above gameplay innovation but rather refinement. On the other machine, Red Steel. Most of the time, you'll get a reaction like "these graphics are dope" compared to "I never played a game like this before." Considering how often these casuals make comments like "DDR is for gayboys" or "that Eyetoy makes you look retarded," what makes you think this attitude will change when truly fun ideas like flicking the nunchuck forward to open a door makes it's way into their hand?

I hate to be a downer but if you look at the traditional top sellers of the year, they aren't exactly the market Wii is aiming for. I do plan to snag mine day one and, truth be told, getting in a line with actual gamers is something I think will be different from the PS3 line experience.

thoughtlesswhisper

09-19-2006, 11:39 PM

...'confused comments'.....

Your talking about one game on ps2 that had that high poly counts. While games like dead or alive have had high poly counts on 360 for ages. Read this

http://www.psxextreme.com/scripts/previews2/ppreview.asp?prevID=81

"The reason for the absurd amount of polygons that a character has is because of the fact that the backgrounds are a mix of pre-rendered and real-time graphics, the pre-renders dominating the real-time by a wide margin"

Onimusha had res evil style levels which were static backgrounds which do not scroll. You have to go from room to room. Meaning that ALL the ps2 was pushing was those high poly characters, and a static jpeg. And surprise surprise the other game with alot of polies happens to be... res evil.

All games used the hard disk to cache levels. Thats why xbox loading was blisteringly fast. ps2 load times are much more than four times xbox. I know. I have done cross platform testing for same game titles at the biggest game developer in the world, and seen them loading side by side. PS2 loading would dramatically change the amount of time it took us to complete titles daily by hours. Add to that, the 5.1, HDTV output, four ports and ethernet built in, better shaders, self shadowing, normal maps etc.. 4 times is starting to look a lot closer.

Btw that screenshot is insutling my intelligence. You do realise there are no such thing as ps3 screenshots. You are showing me a pc screenshot. There is no finalised ps3 hardware. Because we havnt got a snifter of one of those at EA in ps3 form.

You trying to say that ps2 and xbox games were close in comparison is pretty redundant argument. The proof is in the specs. If you disagree then your saying that low spec and high spec can produce the same thing. doesnt make sense.

i tried looking for a couple of comparisons but seems like the sites have biased screenshots. i looked at splinter cell, which i know for a fact didnt have self shadowing yet i see it does in the screens. I know companies do this because i saw screens advertised on IGN for games i was working on and compared them to screens i was grabbing fresh from the builds and the difference was quite hilarious for me at the time.

all im saying is when i had my playstation the graphics looked horrid muddy and pixely. xbox has games lke splinter cell, halo'1' and ninja gaiden, toshinden, doa, fable, doom, half life which just cannot be done on ps2. the latter two, studios have outright stated that they could not be done on the ps2. titles like gta have reflections on cars, modelled rims, higher polies, longer draw distances, higher adaptive degredation tolerance, more cars/people on road etc... i think iv made my point.

RuinedMessiah

09-19-2006, 11:55 PM

Btw that screenshot is insutling my intelligence. You do realise there are no such thing as ps3 screenshots. You are showing me a pc screenshot. There is no finalised ps3 hardware. Because we havnt got a snifter of one of those at EA in ps3 form.

Holy crap! You got me there. That screenshot isn't a PS3 screenshot. Oh damn. I have been caught. Eternity of all eternities, how could I have imagined I would have gotten that past you? In fact, that isn't even a PS3 game at all. In fact, it's an Xbox 360 game. You may have heard of it. It's called Too Human. Yet another one of those awesome looking games with a framerate about as stable as Mariah Carrey. Damn, can't get anything past you.

Oh yes, and for the record, rarely did the straight comparisons so I could be wrong. But most of the time, when I did them, they were comparable on a very near basis. Onimusha 4, incidently was fully 3D, as was RE4. I tend to buy a game once and, as I mentioned before, multiplatform releases, unless my friends wanted to go online against each other for the low, low price of free, were on either the Gamecube or Xbox. In fact, majority of my PS2 library are the exclusive games or the genres the other two just didn't get.

And, incidently how is Battle Arena Toshinden for Xbox? I heard they didn't make a sequel and, last time I checked, the game didn't exist. I could be wrong though.

*slowly wonders how many more posts it will take before thoughtlesswhisper realizes I'm just baiting him into more rants about how Sony raped his dog and Microsoft is the second coming of rapture*

agreenster

09-20-2006, 12:33 AM

RobertoOrtiz

09-20-2006, 12:39 AM

Guys this is just a console, not a world peace plan. Lets keep it not personal.

-R

erilaz

09-20-2006, 12:57 AM

Guys this is just a console, not a world peace plan. Lets keep it not personal.

-R

You'd be surprised how many people can't distinguish the two. Sometimes I think console talk is equivalent to politics and religion.:surprised

thoughtlesswhisper

09-20-2006, 01:04 AM

You'd be surprised how many people can't distinguish the two. Sometimes I think console talk is equivalent to politics and religion.:surprised

hehe. but cmon. the news and discussion forums have been DEAD for about a week now. let us have our fun.

Pavlovich

09-20-2006, 01:08 AM

dang...i work in the industry, and the only console i'm planning on buying ANY time soon is the Wii (whatever paycheck gives me a lil' extra in november). plus another controler so i can play it with my wife. :)

and you know whats CRAZY? i don't even have an HDTV YET!! *gasps!! and i probably won't for a long time!!

and believe it or not, i'm the biggest quake/doom/gears of war graphics junkie, next gen, raa-raa-raaahh, i live for that stuff...

but i'm still only buying a Wii. and you know what? i'm going to have a LOT of fun playing it too. And when i get bored with my Wii? PS4 and the xbox...720? will be out and i can get a PS3 for $199. but you know what? i still probably won't, because nintendo will have a new console out and i'll probably be getting that one.

i'm sure i'm in the minority relative to the people who browse these pages, but is everyone in america, europe, and asia really all that giddy about the PS3 because of the amazing graphics? sure, ok...but $1000 giddy? (don't forget to include the hdtv and controler and a couple games!)

and as far as graphics go...i think you guys need to go back and look at the specs shipping with the PS3. you're not pumping massive amounts of textures OR polys through that thing until someone can figure out that alien cell technology. sorry. :(

P_T

09-20-2006, 03:50 AM

all im saying is when i had my playstation the graphics looked horrid muddy and pixely. xbox has games lke splinter cell, halo'1' and ninja gaiden, toshinden, doa, fable, doom, half life which just cannot be done on ps2. the latter two, studios have outright stated that they could not be done on the ps2. When you say things like that, the words 'biased' and 'fanboy' really do come to mind. You know a game called God of War? or perhaps Shadow of the Colossus which probably was THE best looking game from the last gen.

Back to topic. Wii's gonna be awesome!! yes I'm a fanboy, just not as biased as some other fanboys.

thoughtlesswhisper

09-20-2006, 12:04 PM

When you say things like that, the words 'biased' and 'fanboy' really do come to mind. You know a game called God of War? or perhaps Shadow of the Colossus which probably was THE best looking game from the last gen.

Back to topic. Wii's gonna be awesome!! yes I'm a fanboy, just not as biased as some other fanboys.

shadow of the colosus was a very beutiful game. defnitaley. but not the best looking game on last gen. They baked in GI and had faked hdr. compressed textures using certain colours and ver low res because they were simple. It was a great art and programming team that did the best they can with the hardware. Putting everything into 2 characters and the background.

But it is still using ps2 hardware. I personally think ninja gaiden and half life 2 had better graphics, because they had plenty of characters on screen, high res textures and real time lighting effects. I notice these things because i know what it takes to produce them.

Not trying to take anything away from sotc because its kick ass, BUT it cut a lot of corners to pull it off as anyone will tell you, and cannot be done with all types of games.

JohnD

09-20-2006, 01:54 PM

lovisx

09-20-2006, 02:21 PM

well I have a computer for graphics power... so wii seems like the logical choice as far as new gaming experiences is concerned. If I want the latest eye candy it's usually more beneficial to have it on the computer anyway... spend 300 bucks on the latest graphics card, and then another 300 bucks in a couple years when technology makes another leap, and I have the ps3/xbox beat.

P_T

09-20-2006, 02:27 PM

Not trying to take anything away from sotc because its kick ass, BUT it cut a lot of corners to pull it off as anyone will tell you, and cannot be done with all types of games.I was just saying it coz you said "my playstation the graphics looked horrid muddy and pixely" so I just mentioned a couple of games with graphics that aren't "horrid muddy and pixely". As far as I'm concerned, what cheat/tricks they used to make that possible is irrelevant.

I am slightly concern with how you use the wiimote though. I've seen some videos of its usage and it looks like the wiimote could potentially cause wrist pain with the way it's being held, specially in a prolonged use.

Kaostick

09-20-2006, 03:23 PM

Guys this is just a console, not a world peace plan. Lets keep it not personal.

-R

Amen. I'm almost at the point of wishing all the console threads would get closed as fast as OT threads.. Mainly cause of two or three people. :sad:

Squash-n-Stretch

09-20-2006, 03:52 PM

*slowly wonders how many more posts it will take before thoughtlesswhisper realizes I'm just baiting him into more rants about how Sony raped his dog and Microsoft is the second coming of rapture*

Both of you give it a rest please. 'Baiting' is not really acceptable on this site, I don't think. Not when it generates equal or larger amounts of nonsense. Read Post rule number 3 before you post. And your arguments are as convoluted and confused as each others. You have taken the graphical argument to the point where your jabbing MHz speeds at each other. MSN or another IM system might be what be what you two need.

And I'd also like to add that just because someone may be in the games industry, doesn't mean they know very much about it all. There are thousands of games companies out there...doesn't mean they produce games of much worth ;)

Bottom line is (and this comes from a Nintendo fanboy) I'm not sure why Nintendo made the call to leave the Wii lagging so far behind specswise. A 'gimmick' , or innovation or whatever you want to call it will only carry you so far. I'm the only person out of my group of friends that sees the draw of games like Zelda and other games with bright colour palletes and giant hammers. But if I'm going to spend 250 euro on something, I want the option to also be there for me to turn those games off and put on a game where I can riddle some zombies with bullets. Granted...that one blurry Wii screen of the new Biohazard looks good but there is going to be an instance when I would love to play a game released on XBox 360 or PS3 but it can't be ported because of the technical restrictions. I'm not sure why they set that limitation on themselves from day one...maybe they believe their own spin more than their customers.

None of this is going to stop me buying it from day one though :D

pixelmonk

09-20-2006, 04:24 PM

Good post RuinedMessiah. You're right, graphics DO matter to the average joe, and they WILL be able to tell the difference. But it doesnt change the fact that nintendo has their niche figured out--so i think we're both saying the same thing.

We can be friends now, kitten ;)

Their niche figured out? Niche is an overused term. It seems people always claim something is a "niche". Just because they sell less units doesn't mean they're in a "niche".

Zarf

09-20-2006, 05:32 PM

Dude are you in any way serious? Or are you just being funny. ps2 is 200mhz. Xbox is 733. I take it you didnt know that because that is very close to four times as much.

It is worth pointing out that clock speed is in no way shape or form a usefull measure of 'power' when your comparing two processors from different 'families'. A pentium 233 is still 'slower' than a pentium2 200 for instance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_speed

The PS2's processor(s) and the Xbox's (pentium3) were two very different beasts.

Cheers
Xarf

pixelmonk

09-20-2006, 05:55 PM

It is worth pointing out that clock speed is in no way shape or form a usefull measure of 'power' when your comparing two processors from different 'families'. A pentium 233 is still 'slower' than a pentium2 200 for instance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_speed

The PS2's processor(s) and the Xbox's (pentium3) were two very different beasts.

Cheers
Xarf

I concur... that's why both AMD and Intel tried to stop using clock speed as a naming convention for their cpus as clock speed didn't necessarily mean "speed".

agreenster

09-20-2006, 06:00 PM

Their niche figured out? Niche is an overused term. It seems people always claim something is a "niche". Just because they sell less units doesn't mean they're in a "niche".

I don't think I've used it erroneously. If Nintendo isnt a niche company, I dont know what is

ParamountCell

09-20-2006, 06:05 PM

I am slightly concern with how you use the wiimote though. I've seen some videos of its usage and it looks like the wiimote could potentially cause wrist pain with the way it's being held, specially in a prolonged use.

You may be right. I remember hearing that the wiimote only needs a slight twitch in the desired direction to get the effect needed so if we dont get rsi from playing with a mouse we should be ok with the wiimote.

tozz

09-20-2006, 06:09 PM

There's alot of talk about high poly models, this is hardly what I see as the most interesting thing with next-gen graphics. For the first time ever, the hardware now allows for some serious depth with detail, something that has never been possible before. I remember when I watched the Tomb Raider trailer (XBOX360) and the first thing that struck me was how far you could see and how much detail (and that was inside a house). So when people are downplaying graphics as not being important for gameplay, don't forget that it's more than higher res models, it's depth and by that more immersion (just imagine a landscape that's being drawn as you walk or one that's actually there).

RuinedMessiah

09-20-2006, 06:25 PM

I don't think I've used it erroneously. If Nintendo isnt a niche company, I dont know what is

I can see where both sides of this arguement has a point. On one particular side, I can see how a company that is so thoroughly dominating in the handheld markets, continues to have among the best selling games, and maintains a downright fanatical userbase could be considered a "niche" since we normally consider niche's to be small things akin to Nippon Ichi fans or vertical shooters. So in that regard, saying Nintendo has found their "niche," although technically correct, still seems off.

But on the other side of things, Dictionary.com describes "niche" as such.

5.pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal: niche advertising.

In that regard, Nintendo is most definately a niche. So powerful of a niche that, aside from iPod, I don't know another single company that could convince so much of it's current userbase to upgrade to a variant of the same console within the first two years of a console life. You have to respect Nintendos ability to remain highly profitable.

And as I stated before, I do have very strong feelings that the Wii seems almost temporary. As if, three years from now, Nintendo, due to the cheaper prices of parts, will unveil their own "true next gen" console to trump both Microsoft and Sony and since they would both be in the middle of their console generation, trumping the competition from that part would be very costly for either company to counter. Of course, this is just a theory of mine.

P_T

09-20-2006, 06:56 PM

And as I stated before, I do have very strong feelings that the Wii seems almost temporary. As if, three years from now, Nintendo, due to the cheaper prices of parts, will unveil their own "true next gen" console to trump both Microsoft and Sony and since they would both be in the middle of their console generation, trumping the competition from that part would be very costly for either company to counter. Of course, this is just a theory of mine.You could be right, though I don't think it would be as short as 3 years, maybe 5 years considering games take longer to produce these days.

Personally, I think Nintendo did the right thing by not going for bigger better graphics with the Wii. For one, HD is not quite mainstream yet and eventhough more people have it in smaller TV size, it's a bit like playing a game on a PC with 1024x768 resolution using a 15" monitor. Kinda beats the purpose of using HD.

Since graphic is not the selling point, developers will have to focus more on the unique gameplay aspect of the console. If it's done right, we can expect some really cool and unique games coming out for the Wii, even if they're still from the existing franchise. That's more exciting for me than a new game with 20x AA or SSS skin pores on a character model that can sweat in realtime.

trence5

09-20-2006, 09:29 PM

QUOTE:

".........relegated to the back corner of the games store, just as the GameCube is today."

http://www.whatentertainment.com/view/Wii__Failure_Is_Not_An_Option

-RI can't lie, this still has me scratching my head.... Why did the GameCube fail? It had some cool titles, Resident Evil 4 should have put it on the map, and it's load time is pretty fast. What was that Nintendo did or didn't do to attract more developers? Now when I go to ign.com and to the 'Cube section all I used to see was about Monkeyball this or Monkeyball that............ I don't know anyone that was interested in that title.

JDex

09-20-2006, 09:33 PM

I saw some "gamers" and "non-gamers" using the wii controlers with a few games on television the other night and it was good for a laugh. I can't imagine people actually enjoying the complete lack of control involved. It will be a novelty, nothing more.

All the Wii will need to be successful is a Zelda title and upteen crappy Mario titles.

cresshead

09-20-2006, 10:45 PM

shazzed

09-21-2006, 03:38 AM

i like the idea of the Wii and will probably go get one justfor the fun of it...

but...

i'm really getting bored of games in genral....seems to me nothing has really come out
since doom1 to really take the idea of a 3d world/enviroment and really let the player immerse themselves in it...

yeah we have more detailed models/characters
yeah we have better textures and lighting including normalmapping etc...

but the games just play like doom on the whole...nothing new...
i'm REALLY bored of magic and spells or huge guns and bombs
just blowing EVERYONE to bits...

now wether it's nintendo, sony or $soft....or even just a game developer
...someone out there will take a risk and do someting different one day
and not just soup up a 90's 3d game in 2007....

anyone go any idea's if we'll get suich a game / system?

Amen !
That is what it's all about. The Gameplay! I'm sick of the same old old with sequels and more polys effects and all that jazz.

Creative new ideas is what kicks us along and makes a game/system really stand out.
I hate consoles, i play games on a pc. Wii has got the right step in the right direction and if it can turn my head then I am sure it can turn a few more peeps.

P_T

09-21-2006, 03:48 AM

cresshead, I can think of a couple of them in PS2, Shadow of Colossus and Okami.

Honestly can't think of any in xbox and I'm not sure if Spore is going to be released for the 360, for now that's one innovative title for the PC.

For the GC I can think of a few, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Paper Mario.

I saw some "gamers" and "non-gamers" using the wii controlers with a few games on television the other night and it was good for a laugh. I can't imagine people actually enjoying the complete lack of control involved. It will be a novelty, nothing more.Maybe you should go to gametrailers.com and check some of the showfloor walkthrough videos, I really don't see any "complete lack of control" you're talking about.

JDex

09-21-2006, 03:53 AM

Maybe you should go to gametrailers.com and check some of the showfloor walkthrough videos, I really don't see any "complete lack of control" you're talking about.

I will... but watching people fumble about while trying to control their location, speed, swing and aim in the tennis game with the wands was hysterical. The frustration on the players faces was almost sad. Looked about the same for the golf and the FPS-thing.

While I appreciate Nintendo's drive to truely innovate (as I am the first usually to piss-and-moan about how 99% of games are just prettier versions of Doom), I really can't see this particular innovation as more than a novelty... I do hope I'm wrong though.

RuinedMessiah

09-21-2006, 03:55 AM

I can't lie, this still has me scratching my head.... Why did the GameCube fail? It had some cool titles, Resident Evil 4 should have put it on the map, and it's load time is pretty fast. What was that Nintendo did or didn't do to attract more developers? Now when I go to ign.com and to the 'Cube section all I used to see was about Monkeyball this or Monkeyball that............ I don't know anyone that was interested in that title.

Hate to say it but Nintendo fanbase killed the cube. I know, confusing, but let me tell you why. Of all the third party multiconsole releases, only one game ever performed better on the cube than any other console. Well, maybe RE4 did better on cube, not sure. But that game was Soul Calibur II. And let me ask you a question, why do you think that is? Because all the fighting game fans were on Gamecube? Based upon the abysmal sales of other fighting games on the console, not very likely. It was Link. It took the inclusion of a high Calibur Nintendo franchise character to push it to sell the best on a Nintendo console.

Nintendo has never had problems making their money. Nintendo fans will pretty much support all of their endeavors. But the third parties? Well, with diminishing returns on Cube releases, slowly, the companies began to get turned away. It became of a matter of "is the effort worth it at this point?" Many companies began to scale back Gamecube focus in major amounts. And who do we blame? The companies not willing to continually throw money in a hole or the fanbase that would pass up Burnout 2 in favor of Pokemon Channel?

I'm hoping with the Wii, things will be different. Like Gamecube, plenty of third parties are backing it up around launch. Whether or not Wii will become like Gamecube will depend entirely upon the fanbases ability to buy games outside of Nintendo's camp for a while.

tozz

09-21-2006, 06:54 AM

...Maybe you should go to gametrailers.com and check some of the showfloor walkthrough videos, I really don't see any "complete lack of control" you're talking about.
The people showcasing the Wii does a pretty good job of hiding their misses, but there's plenty of them. If a "trained" person can't control it good, who will?

P_T

09-21-2006, 11:23 AM

The people showcasing the Wii does a pretty good job of hiding their misses, but there's plenty of them. If a "trained" person can't control it good, who will?Not much more than the usual "misses" that happens in a game, specially since this is a brand new controller, unlike the conventional one we've used for the last decade or so. Check this video of Mario Galaxy boss battle gameplay by one of IGN staff, I'd say the player can control it good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDGvYDW9ys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDGvYDW9ys)

LucentDreams

09-21-2006, 11:57 AM

thing no one here seemed to pay attention to was the CEos great speach earlier this year on the future nintendo. They don't give a damn about the hardcore gamer, if they are diehard fans they'll get a Wii, if they need better graphics they won't, thats some losses, but jsut as with DS and its insanely successful mind puzzle games and stupid high tech versions of tamagochi's, nintendos focusing on the markets no one has right now, and doing a good job of it. Think of their ads, a granny playing a DS with two men leaning over her shoulder to see what she's doing. thats not advertising to a teen/20 something typical gamer.

they are saying that Xbox and playstation can continue down the unoriginal route and keep popping out the same four games with better graphics and hopefully better storylines, but Nintendo is going to focus on stimulating challenging and entertaining everyone.

I play my friends zbox 360 a lot, I'll buy a wii, and probably buy a PS# (sorry prefer ps over xbox and I have access to an xbox so why buy one) Why get both, cause I think the wii will have a lot of stuff I won't see anywhere else, and its a more intelligent design for a multimedia system too. Playstation 2, xbox and xbox 360 have all been horrible DVD players and music systems with expensive specialized controls or horrible use of their regular controllers. Makes sens to have a game controller that easily navigates your screen, its a lot liek having a mouse ;)

RuinedMessiah

09-21-2006, 01:15 PM

Speaking of complexity, was I the only one who was watching the Battalion Wars 2 video at IGN and thinking "damn, this seems overly complex?"

tozz

09-21-2006, 02:45 PM

Not much more than the usual "misses" that happens in a game, specially since this is a brand new controller, unlike the conventional one we've used for the last decade or so. Check this video of Mario Galaxy boss battle gameplay by one of IGN staff, I'd say the player can control it good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDGvYDW9ys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDGvYDW9ys)
That video speaks for itself, gameplay seems slow as hell and every time he needs to do something the game slows down (the player, not the fps) just to move the pointer. Funny how the boss is essentially doing nothing but turning around, is that the kind of difficulty we can expect with this new innovation? :)

If the precision is good, why not make use of it?

P_T

09-21-2006, 03:13 PM

That video speaks for itself, gameplay seems slow as hell and every time he needs to do something the game slows down (the player, not the fps) just to move the pointer. Funny how the boss is essentially doing nothing but turning around, is that the kind of difficulty we can expect with this new innovation? :)

If the precision is good, why not make use of it?You're just nitpicking now dude. What's game difficulty have anything to do with the game controller? Besides, it's just a demo version, for all we know it may only be one of the earliest mini boss in the game.

I really don't see many slow down in the video except when he tried to aim the tree thing, the boss fight seem very fluid to me.

This is another IGN video explaining in details the wiimote as he plays, also note what he says around 50 seconds into the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8azFT2oHgFM

RuinedMessiah

09-21-2006, 04:23 PM

Since when is a Super Mario boss fast paced?

lovisx

09-21-2006, 04:31 PM

the editors at ign seem to think the wii will be great, well especially the new mario. I remember reading reviews when the ds first came out all the games were getting 5 or 6 out of ten. I could see the same happening with the wii until developers discover what works and what doesn't.

I think one things for sure though, there will be stuff that works, and the stuff that works will be different then what works on other consoles.

agreenster

09-21-2006, 05:24 PM

I really can't see this particular innovation as more than a novelty... I do hope I'm wrong though.

Don't knock novelty...you could classify Guitar Hero as a gimmick or novelty, but it's fun as hell and sold a bazillion units. And there's a sequel.

tozz

09-21-2006, 07:01 PM

You're just nitpicking now dude. What's game difficulty have anything to do with the game controller? Besides, it's just a demo version, for all we know it may only be one of the earliest mini boss in the game.

I really don't see many slow down in the video except when he tried to aim the tree thing, the boss fight seem very fluid to me.

This is another IGN video explaining in details the wiimote as he plays, also note what he says around 50 seconds into the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8azFT2oHgFM
I had to turn it off when he sais "Mario is for hardcore players". That if anything should tell you how far out there he is :) Commander Keen was hardcore.
Hard to not have a fluid bossfight when there's absolutely nothing happening in it, or?
Game difficulty is in direct proportion to how you control the game, it seems all the Wii games are really laid back on not with much focus on intense and active gaming (haven't seen them all, but judging from what I've seen so far).

P_T

09-21-2006, 07:24 PM

I had to turn it off when he sais "Mario is for hardcore players". That if anything should tell you how far out there he is :) Commander Keen was hardcore.
Hard to not have a fluid bossfight when there's absolutely nothing happening in it, or?
Game difficulty is in direct proportion to how you control the game, it seems all the Wii games are really laid back on not with much focus on intense and active gaming (haven't seen them all, but judging from what I've seen so far).You butt in when I was talking to JDex about the controller and now I showed you a video of that guy explaining the controller and you said you turned it off before he even got to the explanation... nice... :rolleyes:

You talked about the game slowing down when the player need to do something and when I said the boss fight looks pretty fluid to me, as in the player keep moving around doing what he supposed to do with no slowing down, then you said it's because nothing's happening, nice argument there too...

And again I ask what's game difficulty has anything to do with the controller? Gamecube and most likely both PS2/xbox have both slower paced as well as fast paced games. Wii has faster paced games like Excite Truck and Red Steel. So obviously you haven't seen enough Wii games to make this statement.
...is that the kind of difficulty we can expect with this new innovation?

tozz

09-21-2006, 08:51 PM

You butt in when I was talking to JDex about the controller and now I showed you a video of that guy explaining the controller and you said you turned it off before he even got to the explanation... nice... :rolleyes:

You talked about the game slowing down when the player need to do something and when I said the boss fight looks pretty fluid to me, as in the player keep moving around doing what he supposed to do with no slowing down, then you said it's because nothing's happening, nice argument there too...

And again I ask what's game difficulty has anything to do with the controller? Gamecube and most likely both PS2/xbox have both slower paced as well as fast paced games. Wii has faster paced games like Excite Truck and Red Steel. So obviously you haven't seen enough Wii games to make this statement.
Do you often keep private conversations on a open forum and then complain if someone else have something to say on the subject?
I have a hard time believing anyone who seems so far of the scale when it comes to games, working at IGN or not (not that really is a benefit on the subject). So listening to his preachings doesn't really say much, especially not when you're looking for something objective.
Moving around allright, and trying to align the pointer so he can continue. Alot of the time it looks very much like how people align mices on the computer. I don't know how hard it could be to understand. Since the boss is essentially doing nothing, all the player has to do is move, that's not very hard. To show if the wiimote is actually as good as they say it is it would require alot more interaction than that. Check how long it takes him every time he's jumping on those rubber thingies, sloooow motion. Exite Truck requires about as much interaction as eating a sandwich (as with almost any car game). Red Steel could be a little more action paced, but from the movies I've seen it's mostly one on one combat (and with the usual console fps slowmo because of lack of keyboard and mouse).

nofosu

09-21-2006, 09:15 PM

Hard to not have a fluid bossfight when there's absolutely nothing happening in it, or?
Game difficulty is in direct proportion to how you control the game, it seems all the Wii games are really laid back on not with much focus on intense and active gaming (haven't seen them all, but judging from what I've seen so far).

You are probably one of the biggest Wii/Nintendo hateboys on this forum, its unbelievable how biased you can be. You keep talkin bout graphics, but as far as i know the best graphical machine out ther is the PC, trumps the ps3 in so many ways. The bad thing about it is you have not even tried the Wii. It seems to me that the graphics is just your thing and i am guesing every one can see that as well. You called Zelda, and mario boring, and not challenging enough 4 you, everyone is entitled to thier opinion but man that is a bad one, sorry not tryna lash out on you, but you always troll on the nintendo boards you have nothing to good say about ninty or even , You call other people like ParamountCell (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=217803) fanboys, but you seem to b a lot worse, (not calling you fanboy, but a streight hate boy) and you may come back with rubbish like "oh i have givin nintendo props in the past", but boy, if we read all ur posts on any nintendo discussion, 99% of the time you are just bitchin bout something. Grow up!!. With all this wii basjhing it seems ur not even gettin one so why are you even on this thread. (i really deslike the way you subtle troll these nintendo threads. let it go). I for one c all the benefits of all the new sysems, and will eventully get all of them, each sytem has its advantages and disadvantages, just like everything else in this world. Its obvious you really do not believ in the potential of the wii and that fine and dandy but do you always have to start bashing its really boring, for someone who seems to dislike nintendo and the direction thier going without fail you will be in a nintendo thread. Again Grow up!! jeez

thoughtlesswhisper

09-21-2006, 11:55 PM

You are probably one of the biggest Wii/Nintendo hateboys on this forum, its unbelievable how biased you can be. You keep talkin bout graphics, but as far as i know the best graphical machine out ther is the PC, trumps the ps3 in so many ways. The bad thing about it is you have not even tried the Wii. It seems to me that the graphics is just your thing and i am guesing every one can see that as well. You called Zelda, and mario boring, and not challenging enough 4 you, everyone is entitled to thier opinion but man that is a bad one, sorry not tryna lash out on you, but you always troll on the nintendo boards you have nothing to good say about ninty or even , You call other people like ParamountCell (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=217803) fanboys, but you seem to b a lot worse, (not calling you fanboy, but a streight hate boy) and you may come back with rubbish like "oh i have givin nintendo props in the past", but boy, if we read all ur posts on any nintendo discussion, 99% of the time you are just bitchin bout something. Grow up!!. With all this wii basjhing it seems ur not even gettin one so why are you even on this thread. (i really deslike the way you subtle troll these nintendo threads. let it go). I for one c all the benefits of all the new sysems, and will eventully get all of them, each sytem has its advantages and disadvantages, just like everything else in this world. Its obvious you really do not believ in the potential of the wii and that fine and dandy but do you always have to start bashing its really boring, for someone who seems to dislike nintendo and the direction thier going without fail you will be in a nintendo thread. Again Grow up!! jeez

here here:wip:

ParamountCell

09-22-2006, 02:13 AM

Even the 3d analog stick has problems up till this day, there are games that have dodgy camera controls and stuff, when watching the video of the wii you have to realise that this is a complely new way of playing that these guys have been introduced to so it may take them a few moments to get to grips with the paradigm shift.

P_T

09-22-2006, 03:06 AM

Do you often keep private conversations on a open forum and then complain if someone else have something to say on the subject?
I have a hard time believing anyone who seems so far of the scale when it comes to games, working at IGN or not (not that really is a benefit on the subject). So listening to his preachings doesn't really say much, especially not when you're looking for something objective.I don't care about the butting in else I woulda said something about it earlier, what I have a problem with is that after buttin in with all that talk about the controller, I showed you that video and you just stopped it before it even got to the controller.

He's not preaching in that video, just stating his opinion (he specifically said "IMO") after he had a hands on experience, which he explained further as the video plays but you wouldn't know that since you turned it off before the explanation part.

You know what, I'm not even gonna try explaining anymore, not because I can't but because I know it would just fall on deaf ears. How can you say you're looking for "somehing objective" when it's pretty obvious you're biased against Nintendo.

tozz

09-22-2006, 10:37 AM

..bantering...
So one must hate a company because he is judging it on its previous track record and the so called innovations brought up in the past? I mean, everyone loves to bash Ken for the PS2 speeches, but we're not allowed to be realistic about Nintendo?
I mean, what have they done since the SNES? Don't even bring up hand helds, it's comparing apples with oranges. For a short history brief take a look at: http://www.gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20050916
I'm definately biased against Nintendo, they haven't done anything special since the SNES, I gave the GC a chance (13games) and it was a huge disapointment (as the rest of the world showed with the lowest sales ever for a Nintendo console). They gave the same speech then as now (with the added Wiimore) and I'm just being realistic about it. It would be just lovely if I was proven wrong, but some nostalgic people on forums and half as*ed reviewers just ain't doing it for me this time around.

thoughtlesswhisper

09-22-2006, 11:23 AM

Tozz. Nintendo came up with: the d-pad, shoulder l-r buttons, analogue stick, rumble pack, light gun, and now first console with motion sensitivity (if you discount the sidewinder on pc).

They pretty much inevented the whole control scheme your used to using today. I think its about time someone else started doing some innovating. Gamecube, fair enuf, was pretty sheisty. They tried being creative again with that pad, but it didnt work for me, but it shows they are always trying. And same b4 with the n64 pad, which was pretty good. Which by the way, was after the snes, and brought the analogue stick and rumble features. And chips within games, and STARFOX!! (not to mention golden eye which is still heralded by many as one of the best games ever. not for me though)

I just dont see how anyone can have a go at nintendo for not doing anything. Which is exactly what your doing. I think youve got it very wrong. When you seem to be on obvious sony fanboy, have you ever stopped to think what have they done? All they did was release a pretty generic console. They keep using the same bloody pad for three consoles now cos ther shit scared to try anything new.

Im not gonna lay into this further because my point should be pretty obvious by now...

ParamountCell

09-22-2006, 02:33 PM

I mean, what have they done since the SNES? .

ummm lets see,

Episodic content, camera games, analog controls, true 3d gaming, OCARINA OF TIME!

Now we re having a mothion sensing control, with vibration aswell as sound.

ParamountCell

09-22-2006, 02:38 PM

just out of curiosity, why is it that whenever topics get a reply they dont move to the front page anymore?

tozz

09-22-2006, 02:39 PM

And they used it for good games, until N64. Nobody is arguing that. "Chips within games" isn't something innovative, it's more of a backward step, look what the other players were doing. CD-ROM, to continue sticking to sensless expensive cartiges just for the sake of it was quite the punch in the face. To add to the storage of them was a need born by being naive from the start. Sony hasn't done anything special, exept getting consoles out to the world in numbers Nintendo could only dream of (we're talking consoles). That ment third party developers getting their games out there too. Nobody is saying you have to love the DualShock, but judging from all the pads out there from the nes and onward, the only one that really holds a candle to it is the Dreamcast pad (at least for me), and the 360 pad is a great step up from the old xbox one too.
Remember what happened when Sony tried the new controller? People were going NOOO (without even trying it) and they changed it back.

As has been said in countless threads the Nintendo players is what kills the Nintendo consoles, and if everyone is gonna go by their 360Wii combination, the Wii will have the same fate.

lovisx

09-22-2006, 03:36 PM

just out of curiosity, why is it that whenever topics get a reply they dont move to the front page anymore?

is someone trying to define what users should like to discuss?

P_T

09-22-2006, 03:40 PM

just out of curiosity, why is it that whenever topics get a reply they dont move to the front page anymore?I think the thread display default is First Post and not Last Post as it used to be.

ParamountCell

09-22-2006, 05:27 PM

oooooooh ok then.

Squash-n-Stretch

09-22-2006, 08:37 PM

Hate to say it but Nintendo fanbase killed the cube. I know, confusing, but let me tell you why. Of all the third party multiconsole releases, only one game ever performed better on the cube than any other console. Well, maybe RE4 did better on cube, not sure. But that game was Soul Calibur II. And let me ask you a question, why do you think that is? Because all the fighting game fans were on Gamecube? Based upon the abysmal sales of other fighting games on the console, not very likely. It was Link. It took the inclusion of a high Calibur Nintendo franchise character to push it to sell the best on a Nintendo console.

How in the HECK did you construct that opinion??????? :eek: Of course, I have it, and prefer it to the other versions which I've also played to death...but summing up a whole console based on one game? Wow...wow. Wow.

Nintendo has never had problems making their money. Nintendo fans will pretty much support all of their endeavors. But the third parties? Well, with diminishing returns on Cube releases, slowly, the companies began to get turned away. It became of a matter of "is the effort worth it at this point?" Many companies began to scale back Gamecube focus in major amounts. And who do we blame? The companies not willing to continually throw money in a hole or the fanbase that would pass up Burnout 2 in favor of Pokemon Channel?

Congratulations on completely contradicting yourself in one paragraph. At the start of the paragraph you state the fans keep nintendo going, then you blame them for the console's downfall because they won't buy the games released on their console.

nofosu

09-22-2006, 10:09 PM

....I'm definately biased against Nintendo...

Wow. Didn't expect that to be so easy:shrug:

It would be just lovely if I was proven wrong

yes it would, because the whole gaming scene is in shambles and is boring IMO, the only thing i see bringing it back to life, is not better graphics,(to me its only a small part of imersion there needs to be more), but new ways to play, and new games to play, with origional designs. As much as i am looking forward to getting both the 360 and the ps3, i feel there is more chance that a game that will be truly unique(in a hardcor sense, non of this brain training), and fun and imersive will come from the wii... anyway thats my 2 cents, let the war begin!

ParamountCell

09-22-2006, 10:13 PM

Wow. Didn't expect that to be so easy:shrug:

yes it would, because the whole gaming scene is in shambles and is boring IMO, the only thing i see bringing it back to life, is not better graphics,(to me its only a small part of imersion there needs to be more), but new ways to play, and new games to play, with origional designs. As much as i am looking forward to getting both the 360 and the ps3, i feel there is more chance that a game that will be truly unique(in a hardcor sense, non of this brain training), and fun and imersive will come from the wii... anyway thats my 2 cents, let the war begin!

WAAAAAGWAAAAAN!!!

salmonmoose

09-22-2006, 11:52 PM

As much as i am looking forward to getting both the 360 and the ps3, i feel there is more chance that a game that will be truly unique(in a hardcor sense, non of this brain training), and fun and imersive will come from the wii... anyway thats my 2 cents, let the war begin!

Time will tell on that one, given the current state of play, personally I think you'll find more the truely unique games show on the 360. In all my time playing games, the most interesting innovations have always come from outside the big studios, unique controller or not, it's still the same people making the same games they know will be safe.

Listening to game developers, the most common complaint isn't that people are unfamiliar with controllers it's that major publishing companies won't let them do anything new. Do you really think EA is going to let someone make a game where you play a ball of oil, and you get around the world by changing your viscosity (it's called gish if you want to look at it). No, they're going to say, 'make us Call of Duty 2 but with the new controller'. All credit to Nintendo where it's due, the controller looks cool, and would make a great addition to any system. And as we know, Sony have already ripped it off, and Microsoft have a working prototype that works through their LiveCamera, so if it's a hit for Nintendo, bets are on that the other 2 big players will produce their own versions quicksmart.

However XNA brings the indie developer to the console, something that's long overdue. Given some of the stuff that comes out of the indie game festival each year, we can only expect good things. The PC has always been at the forefront of revolutions in gameplay because anyone can make a PC game.

Just a note of clarification, Nintendo didn't come up with the analogue stick, it had been around for years on home computer gaming systems (I was playing games with an analogue joystick before I had 16 colours on screen), as well as the Atari 5200, and Vectrex.

The directional pad, first apears on the Intellivision, albeit in a less refined form, and appears once more on the Microvision before Nintendo picked it up for the Game and Watch.

Shoulder buttons first appeared on Paddle controllers for the Atari 2600

The first lightgun was the Telstar Marksman

tozz

09-23-2006, 11:20 AM

..Just a note of clarification, Nintendo didn't come up with the analogue stick, it had been around for years on home computer gaming systems (I was playing games with an analogue joystick before I had 16 colours on screen), as well as the Atari 5200, and Vectrex.

The directional pad, first apears on the Intellivision, albeit in a less refined form, and appears once more on the Microvision before Nintendo picked it up for the Game and Watch.

Shoulder buttons first appeared on Paddle controllers for the Atari 2600

The first lightgun was the Telstar Marksman

That's some new info right there, thanks for the clarification. Now I have more ammo against those crazy Nintendo fanboys! mohahahahahah. :thumbsup:

nofoso:
Why is the industry in shambles? I believe there's more variation now than ever before, just look at all the crazy stuff that would never been possible before. Sure we got a huge devil called EA consuming and destroying good titles, but that's probably needed to get the contrast into the picture. What people do (myself included) is comparing old gaming experiences with new, that will never work. I remember playing Monkey Island as my first adventure game (first one I played seriously) and comparing that feeling with any adventure game today will just make the new game look pale, not because it's a bad game, but because the feeling won't be the same. So, will adding a different controller to the same games make the games better? I don't know, personally I don't think it will, mainly because I feel the Wiimote lacks in certain areas. If Nintendo was to bring out _new_ games, then we could talk, but jumping in Super Mario and shooting Arrows in Zelda just doesn't feel very innovative when the game is exactly the same.

cresshead

09-23-2006, 11:40 AM

as much as i like nintendo [and i do!] there's a nagging thought that all of this just smells of 'light guns' and that camera thingy for the playstation and those darn dance mats!.....

i'm not sure it's that ''revolutionary''...we've had Lightgun's from atari console days in the 80's...or maybe 70's!!!.... so it all depends on how good the controller is and how well it's embedded into a involving/fun/challenging game.

is it revolutionary?...i'm not sure...could it be that they are trying to reinvent the wheel or mouse...could be the 'trackball' or 'stylus/pen' trying to replace the humble mouse...
and the mouse still wins in my book for usablility on a pc..

do you remember the nintendo vr hardware....died a quick death didn't it!
i hope they've learned from that....

maybe they should have added a keyboard and mouse!

P_T

09-23-2006, 12:13 PM

Time will tell on that one, given the current state of play, personally I think you'll find more the truely unique games show on the 360. In all my time playing games, the most interesting innovations have always come from outside the big studios, unique controller or not, it's still the same people making the same games they know will be safe.It seems like you're generalising too much. There are game publishers that let games like Okami, Shadow of Colossus, Trauma Center, Viewtiful Joe and even that game where you roll around a city making bigger ball of stuff, whatever that game's called, be developed. Plenty of interesting innovations I think, though the games I mentioned seem to be all of Japanese origin.

Wait, EA's going to publish that Spore game right? but so far it's only confirmed for PC.

Tozz, still doesn't change the fact that it's Nintendo who brought those technology back and innovate them, and it's Nintendo's implementation of those technology that's been copied by PS3 and Xbox.

thoughtlesswhisper

09-23-2006, 01:05 PM

Just a note of clarification, Nintendo didn't come up with the analogue stick, it had been around for years on home computer gaming systems (I was playing games with an analogue joystick before I had 16 colours on screen), as well as the Atari 5200, and Vectrex.

The directional pad, first apears on the Intellivision, albeit in a less refined form, and appears once more on the Microvision before Nintendo picked it up for the Game and Watch.

Shoulder buttons first appeared on Paddle controllers for the Atari 2600

The first lightgun was the Telstar Marksman

I meant on a games console that people actually used. I had an atari 2600 (still do) and i dont remember seeing any shoulder buttons. Im pretty sure the atari 2600 only had one button. You could get controllers with 2 buttons but they both did the same thing. If i havnt even heard of this controller till now, im wondering how succesful it really was.

These analogue controllers u speak of as well. Did they have full 360 degrees of motion? And varying degrees of acceleration? If they did in these early days of games as you speak of, again iwould be quite surprised. They never had enough pixels to even make a controller like that viable/necessary.

Sorry if im completely wrong and nitpicking. I guess i meant nintendo was the company to make all of these controller types industry standad. Im pretty sure you cant argue with that.

tozz

09-23-2006, 01:53 PM

Tozz, still doesn't change the fact that it's Nintendo who brought those technology back and innovate them, and it's Nintendo's implementation of those technology that's been copied by PS3 and Xbox.
That depends on what side you want to argue. In essence Nintendo only stole the idea and added their own stuff to it, exactly like Sony did with the DualShock. Compare the analog stick on the N64 vs the one on DS, night and day. Same thing goes for the analogue buttons. I mean, if you compare the N64 controller to the DS the Nintendo one seems more like a pre-concept beta piece more than a final version. (In all fairness the Dual Analog should be use for reference, but it was still a huge leap over the N64 controller).

Being first doesn't mean being best, or even being useful. And we've already concluded that the ideas had already been spawned and used, so in both cases it's just a matter of copying and applying your own ideas.

salmonmoose

09-23-2006, 02:25 PM

That's a little like saying Apple invented the MP3 player because it popularised it.

By 360 degrees of motion I guess you mean, you could point it in any direction, and yes. And by varying degrees of acceleration, I would take you to mean, 'is it in fact analogue'. In fact, by the time the n64 came out PC joysticks had come far enough as to twist as well (a 3rd dimension of freedom).

Remember, consoles traditionally have been far more limited in scope than PCs - Especially before the original playstation, whilst analogue controls aren't much use if everything is blitted graphics (as seen on early consoles). They excel when dealing with vector based graphics, such as flight simulators, which have always been a mainstay of PC gamers.

The ONLY reason EA is going to publish Spore, is because of who it is programmed by. There are some people in the industry, (Sid Meyer, Peter Molyneux, John Carmack, Will Wright) who have so much reputation behind them they dont need to fit the mold - another Will Wright game is just as much a safe choice as 'lets make a fps with half demon half robots - with deathmatch'. That's fine, but they only got where they are today, by making off the wall games, in a time when it was possible for anyone to put a game together. And most of them, are just making the same off the wall game again and again, Spore looks fantastic, but it's really just SimEarth 2 + SimLife 2.

If I came up with Spore, there is no way on Earth EA would look at my game. Or that I could afford the Dev Kits required to release it on a Wii / PS3. MS have given those people an easy way onto consoles. (Yes I'm aware you could get a programming kit for the PS2, but it is horrible to code in)

the-negative

09-23-2006, 02:38 PM

ParamountCell

09-23-2006, 03:16 PM

... based on a personal attack with mediocre grammar.

You shouldnt say things like that, its not nice, what makes you think english is nofosu's first language? When people start picking at grammer and spelling mistakes, it starts turning the topic personal, and we are all mature here, and we know that you are not trying to make Nofosu feel small, but it may give people that impression.

I don't get the Wii. Really. But do I bash it like it ate all my college funds? No.

The fact is games are only going to be considered innovative or "fun" when a developer decides it to be and puts the effort needed into polish and evolution of gameplay. From what I've seen the elements don't excite me.

You have some valid points there, it is true that games developers also need, to breath fresh life into games ideas into games, I remember reading a review of the game okami on 1up.com, they refered to it as a 'nintendo game', because it was so innovative. I am glad to see directors like Kojima and Yu Suzuki, always trying to push new games ideas forward. At times hardware can force developers into making innovative games, lets think of the DS, many may not agree with me but playing Another Code or trace memory would have been pretty boring if it had not been for the hardware.

P_T

09-23-2006, 05:16 PM

That's a little like saying Apple invented the MP3 player because it popularised it.It's not quite like that. Nintendo may not invented those tech but it's their ideas that made those tech work in a single controller, then other companies like Sony and MS just used Nintendo's ideas that's been proven to work as a template for their own controllers. So Apple is more like Sony/MS rather than Nintendo.

Pity about publishers not wanting to take risks. There have been innovative ideas over the years but for some reason, some of them didn't really become popular so we can't really blame them for it, they're just giving the mass what they want. If people are sick of FPS, they'd probably stop making them.

I'm not familiar with 360 at all so I have to ask you, has there been an innovative indie game that is a huge hit? I'm just curious because since game devs been raising the graphic bar so hard lately, I wonder if indie devs can make an innovative game that can also satisfy the graphic eye candy needs of the visually spoiled gamers.

I also remember an indie project for the PC called Project Offset. Seems like they're also pushing for a visually stunning game rather than game play innovation. I'm saying that because pretty much all of their demos are only showcasing the engine's capability rather than showing any unique gameplay.

nofosu

09-24-2006, 01:35 AM

Well, this ain't Joystiq. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion. (Geez.)
And tozz's arguement seems much more valid than yours, which is based on a personal attack with mediocre grammar.
I don't get the Wii. Really. But do I bash it like it ate all my college funds? No.

The fact is games are only going to be considered innovative or "fun" when a developer decides it to be and puts the effort needed into polish and evolution of gameplay. From what I've seen the elements don't excite me.

wow i am sorry my gramatical skills are not up to ur standard, but based on what i have read in this forum half of the people on this boards grammer skills are not the best, but i would take a guess that if they had to right a formal letter or apply to a job, thier grammer would be top notch, so as far as i am concerned you can staff your grammer. And i wrote this in a way i think you would appreciate, thanks for the advice though :thumbsup:

some people take forum life too seriously. Grow up, thats my advice
p.s (tozz i think this guy finds you cute.)

salmonmoose

09-25-2006, 06:54 AM

I'm not familiar with 360 at all so I have to ask you, has there been an innovative indie game that is a huge hit? I'm just curious because since game devs been raising the graphic bar so hard lately, I wonder if indie devs can make an innovative game that can also satisfy the graphic eye candy needs of the visually spoiled gamers.

Not yet, XNA currently is in beta, and you can't exchange your games to the console. The PC is oozing with them however, and I see XNA as a way to bring that market to the consoles - it's remarkably easy to bring eye candy to the user in XNA so games won't have to be bland. It's probably easier to build a game now for the 360 than it is for a PC, because there aren't cross compatibility issues (all 360s, are essentially the same)

Off the top of my head I would guess that 'Wik the Fable of Souls' and 'Alien Homonid' are a couple of indie games that have made it 'semi' big. But only after a success on the PC. And that's the problem, the cheapest entry to consoles at the moment is XBLA, which is $100,000US IF you can get a release slot. That's far too much for most people to raise without any backup.

You could code games for PC and hope someone sees them, but you won't get access to things like the specialised controllers and those sorts of things.

If the right people get involved there is a mountain of potential there.