Cinema 4D.... my favorite tool for modelling.

[ThirdEye]

I always model my characters and everything else in C4D. I like the way it allows me to model but i really need a lot of things. I have to say i own all the major programs demos: XSI experience, Maya PLE, Max demo (i'm not interested in LW at all). I also tried wings3D that is free. XSI: NGONS, incredible tools, modeling has never been so fast but... a lot of mouse trouble and a lot of unecessary things. Max5: probably the best modeler i've tried so far, it has everything i need: NGONS, a ton of non linear poly tools and stuff, but it lacks some basic feature like raycasting selection (our paint selection) or bridge. Maya: NGONS, you have to add MJ polytools if you want to do something serious, it's slow and trivial. My perfect app would be a fusion of Max and C4D: the modeling workflow of C4D + the NGONS support and the ton of polytools of Max. ;)

[LucentDreams]

I like C4D too, but I also love nendo/mirai which is basically what wings is a mixture of, more than nendo, but less than mirai.

I have one other app I really like modeling in that is getting better, but I think C4D will stay in my arsenal for a long time in modeling department.

[That Adrian Guy]

As far as animation goes... is there a way to "make a run/walk cycle" and then have the C4D move the rest of the model so that the feet dont slide on the ground?

[twilight]

Nendo is simply amazing! Wings 3D is almost as good, but when you export your model to C4D you can untriangulate all the Nendo mesh while the Wings 3D meshes can become very ugly...

Lightwave modeling tools are so damn appealing! And so is the renderer! Too bad the interface is so akward... i've installed it at least 10 times in the last 2 years... and the same thing happens over and over again: installation, exploration, frustration, remotion.

3dsmax... huh... i'll skip that one. Been there, done that, crtl+alt+del!

Maya and XSI look great, but my clients don't pay me to use none of them. Keeping your feet on the ground is always a good advice.


C4D is fast, user friendly, cheap and it produces great renders! Ideal for a low budget studio/freelancer. Anyway, what did you expect in a C4D thread? I only wish Maxon would come up with a Rhino import plugin...

:)

[Per-Anders]

thirdeye you really should try the modeller in lightwave. a lot of people are put off by the modeller/renderer workflow, but ignoring that, it's worth tyring just for the modeller alone.

anyhow, i really like cinema for modelling too, there's something very robust about the app, it doesn't feel like it's going to crash on you. for me it's the second best out of all the apps i've tried (lightwave being the best). i have to admit i've never got the Max thing... it's poly modelling always annoyed the hell outa me, too slow, too many clicks to do one thing. i've been playing with wings and it seems like fun, and there are a lot of good ideas in there, but it feels a little too organic and not 100% controllable for me right now, but that could just be me. xsi i've heard wonderful things about, that it's poly modelling is as good as lightwaves, but i've never tried it. i have to admit it's the one that intruiges me the most out of all the current crop.

[AdamT]

I also think Cinema's poly tools get more abuse then they deserve. All they really need is ngons (not trivial I'm told) and something like Bandsaw. Sure there are other things that would be nice (multilevel SDS), but I'd be quite content with the two things I mentioned. Oh yeah, and Samir is working on a plugin for adding freeform edges.

I do like Wings3D, but at the end of the day it's not what you say you like but what you actually use. 99% of my modeling is done in Cinema. I also have trueSpace which has insane ngon support and the ability to draw edges wherever the hell you like. But it crashes constantly and lacks other important tools. So, bring on R9--modeling for the real world.

[LucentDreams]

Yes, and with the new modeling plugins coming ot like Samir's DPack, and his WIP cutting pr freeform edgetool as adam refered to it, the tools are getting better, as for ngons, I find myself spending as much time keeping them clean in wings that its no better than tri's, still nice sometimes, but for the final mesh I spend just as much time cleaning, and cleaning will get better and easier in C4D if Ngons don't show up.

[kiwi]

Ya I agree Kai,C4D in particular human modelling has taught me many different ways of cleaning up my meshes,which is really in part from having hyper nurbs and needing quads for a smooth mesh I have found for myself.



I have not used the other demos,but I also feel what can only be termed comfortable with C4D.So can we agree then that C4D has some sort of intangible X factor which we cannot nail down?



Stu.

[peXel]

i want see all good features of rhino maya xsi included into c4d (material, modelling tools)
so lot to do :buttrock: :buttrock:

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
thirdeye you really should try the modeller in lightwave. a lot of people are put off by the modeller/renderer workflow, but ignoring that, it's worth tyring just for the modeller alone.



I didn't try Lw but i know more or less how it functions and i have to say a thing: I know it's a great modeler, I know a lot of people in industry use it to model (then they export to Maya) but... I really need a package with edges support like R8. I'm starting to become really over-meticolous about the cleanliness of my meshes and about edgeloops. I couldn't stand another edgeless program. :rolleyes:

[AdamT]

I also haven't used LW's modeler much. I know it doesn't have edge selection, but from viewing a bunch of modeling videos it's apparent that it has some pretty good tools for creating edge loops.

[dragonz]

All i gotta say, is that i started with c4d and max, but i love the workflow and ease to get what you want quickly and efficiently. That is my main reason for ust sticking with what i know the best, and ihave this great feeling of cinema in the future.

[medula]

Ok . . I guess I'll toss a wrench into this thread.

What are peoples thoughts on zBrush? :eek:

I own BodyPaint. But I've been swayedrencetly by the release of zBrush for Mac OS X. Any thoughts? Or is a new version of BodyPaint coming down the pipe soon that's going to make me happier??? :surprised

[ThirdEye]

I remember a lot of rumors when R8 came out about a new BP release, not sure tho. :shrug:

[That Adrian Guy]

What does Z-brush have that BP doesnt? You've got me curious now

[doohicky]

ZBrush is simply amazing...want to drop in an obj model and create endless morph targets while keeping UV's? no problem....
How about painting your models in real time then exporting the map with uv's in place...and you can take that map and greyscale it to instantly create a displacement map...on an on and on...in my opinion, ZBrush has created a truly original package with features that no other program has....it will even give Photoshop a run for its money...check out Ken Brilliants' site and see what he has to say....here are just some latest images that have been posted to the ZBrush forum lately:

frog by Glen Southern http://www.southerngfx.co.uk/index.htm

dogthing by Hiroshi Yoshii http://www.yoshii.com

[doohicky]

here's the dogthing

[That Adrian Guy]

excellent answer, but Bodypaint does that same thing. (Doesn't it?)

[doohicky]

Hey Adrian...go to their website...[url]www.pixologic.com...[url]
there you can see detailed info on all the different things available...its really quite staggering...my arsenal consists of 3 packages...C4d, ZBrush and Illusion...I think you will be amazed at all the directions one can take with Z...
all the best

[AdamT]

Zbrush does seem to be a cool tool, but I think even diehard users admit that it isn't really a suitable tool for creating real, 360 degree models, i.e., there's no real way to model the *back* of an object. Am I mistaken?

And concerning the texturing tools, yes, BodyPaint can do everything mentioned above and a lot more.

[Per-Anders]

z-brush of os-x?!?! not that i know of, it still runs in "Classic mode" which is a real pain in the ass. it's very powerful, but you have to get over the interfacce, which i find to be really really hard to do. i've seen some amazing work done with it though.

btw thirdeye, don't be fooled by the lack of edge selection in lightwave to think that it has no edge tools. it had the same fuctionality as edge extrude for years in the base package, and spinquads is a lightwave core feature. lightwave users always come out with the cleanest meshes it seems to me. it also has thousands to great lscripts for extra power tools, the few things that are missing... (actually the only thing i can think of is bridgeing, and it's got an lscript that does that better than our bridge tool, allowing bridgeing between differing numbers of polys while keeping a clean mesh... and a few other neat little inbuilt lscripts for making a mesh all quads and stuff like that). give it a go, you might be pleasantly surprised.

[doohicky]

Yes, mistakes can be made ;)...there are 2 major ways to model in ZB...1. drawing a sphere(or any other) primitive..then edit the vertices by pushing and pulling...very much like sculpting with additive and subtractive method...the user has all sorts of deformation tools that fully affect X,Y and Z...while modeling, you can rotate the object in real time....really there's no way I can go through all of it because there's just soooo much...then 2. Ofer Alon, the creator, has come up with ZSpheres as a second way of modeling...its best to show a pic...done by Ken Brilliant...I hope they don't mind me posting these images...they are all grabbed from ZBrushCentral and Pixologic.com:

1 pic illustrates ONE use of ZSpheres
2 pic is the displacement mapping coming in the next upgrade
3 pic simple morphing illustrated by Glen Southern
4 pic texturing in real time ( this photo however is a compilation
from differing angles) also by Glen Southern

[doohicky]

2 notice the smaller figures? they illustrate ZSpheres in steps from left to right then the big guy has ONLY a displacement map applied to the entire model

[doohicky]

3

[doohicky]

4

[doohicky]

By the way,
I don't mean to run over this thread with ZB....I LOVE C4d!! As a newbie it was the most approachable package out there...and stability for a newbie is paramount....how far would I get if my software crashed all the time? Frustration is an evil thing sometimes....

[That Adrian Guy]

Wow... I can almost swear you work for pixelogic.

I like your answers though

[Gunter]

hi,
I believe for me, concentranting on one app - C4D of course:thumbsup: - and optimizing techniques in it, is better than trying a lot of different apps, hoping there could be something better.
Nevertheless I had a closer look do Wings3d Tuts, pictures, meshes and recognized 5edged polys. Here I read about problems importing models from Wings to Cinema (3ds, obj?).
I´m wondering if these 5 edges are the main reason for strange meshes in Cinema. Does anyone know? Thanks.
Gunter

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by doohicky
ZBrush is simply amazing...want to drop in an obj model and create endless morph targets while keeping UV's? no problem....
How about painting your models in real time then exporting the map with uv's in place...and you can take that map and greyscale it to instantly create a displacement map...on an on and on...in my opinion, ZBrush has created a truly original package with features that no other program has....it will even give Photoshop a run for its money...check out Ken Brilliants' site and see what he has to say....here are just some latest images that have been posted to the ZBrush forum lately:



Uhm Bodypaint built into C4D, does it all in one app, so whats your point, the only thing that really catches the eye from zbrush IMO as a 3D program is the zspheres, which I must say though are one of the coolest tools I have seen, really would like to give em a go sometime. really clean meshes and quick and easy for gesture modeling.

Don't get me wrong, Zbrush is an great app, and for the prices its a really cool app, but more just for stills, and its texturing features aren't that special. Course BP still has Raybrush on its side.

As for upgrades to BP, of course maxon has one planned, all modeuls will be epdated, when and in what order I don't think anyone really knows though.

[doohicky]

Hey Kaiskai,
Originally Medula just asked what peoples thoughts were on ZBrush...I responded...no comparisons were intended..BPaint is of
course the way to go if you have it....I've used both...both are great in their own way...having BP integrated with C4d is an obvious nobrainer....and you're right, ZBrush does not do animation...but what it does do is offer a wide range of possibilities in the 2.5d area, with nice nods to 2d and 3d as well....like most programs, you gotta get into the meat to fully appreciate where its coming from...

By the way, love SOC...thnx

[That Adrian Guy]

I agree about Zspheres... how cool is that..!?

I couldn't ever settle for stills though, BUT I can't do animations if I have to manually make each step that the model makes. Anyone heard any news about Cinema incorporating the "foot prints" feature that character studio has?

Isn't there some way to do with with mocha/coffee?

[randyrives]

Just want to add my 2 cents to the Zbrush disscussion.
I watched several demos at Siggraph last summer, and was impressed.

Well when I got back home I checked it out some more and liked what I saw, so I ordered it.

I have mixed feelings with this app. Zspheres are pretty cool and I have made some meshes and imported into C4D and that worked very well.

But I have had a hard time learning the more sophiscated (sp?) features. There is no manual for the new version. The only help are script files, which are nice but I just can't learn well from them. I need to read and see the instructions step by step. I hear a new manual is on the way, I was hoping it would be in the new release (released yesterday), but not yet.

Still I think this app will be a great helper app for C4D, and a great app for 2.5d stills.

[DannyB]

Have you tried multi target inverse kinematics for your walk cycle?

[That Adrian Guy]

Sounds promising, but I haven't tried it.

There aren't too many animation tuts for C4D as far as making a model walk/ run from point A to point B.

Did you have any links?

[DannyB]

no links I'm afraid but I learnt it from The Cinema 4d handbook, cost about £40. You can set a rig up and apply targets for you legs and toe bones to point at. The rest of the legs will move realistic if you set up decent IK tags to limit there rotation. These targets are null objects and can be animated over time. Its good for avoiding the 'scooby doo' effect and walking up and down stairs/terrain. You still have to animate the top half of your character with Forward kinematics, but it certainly works (with some practice) and sounds the closest you'd get to the 'footsteps' thang.

[That Adrian Guy]

and this can be done with R7, ey?

This is a pretty huge deal... why isnt there more talk about walk cycle tuts?

[LukasS]

I try to get some tuts from my friends maybe they will be able to wrte smth.

[michaeli]

I've tried LW, its modelling parts is very powerful, though you have to remember lots of shortcuts. It has lots of powerful tools like spinsquad\ bandsawpro\pointunweld\drill that C4D lacks, and its "tab" key is fantastic.
I love C4D, hope it will have a more powerful modelling parts than Lw in the version9.:bounce:

[AdamT]

ZBrush does produce some very nice results in the right hands, no doubt. I'm going to check out the demo out of curiousity, although I'm really not looking for another modeling/texturing app. I'd be curious to see a wireframe that it exports. Is the mesh well-ordered for smooth deformation? Is it ridiculously heavy? Is it triangulated? Can it export a low poly mesh for SDS? Inquiring minds want to know!

[randyrives]

ZBrush can be used to quicky create a rough out model. Then add the detail in Cinema. You can also create a detail model in ZBrush but it may come in a little on the heavy side.

Here is a simple ZBrush model imported into C4D.
http://www.rrives.com/temp/mesh.jpg

Here is the model after I added some detail.

http://www.rrives.com/temp/dog_rad.jpg

[AdamT]

Looks like ZBrush does make a pretty decent mesh structure. Still, by the time you cut the additional detail and make edges for appropriate deformation, it probably would have been quicker to have just modeled the whole thing in Cinema, IMHO.

[LucentDreams]

well actually adam you could go way more detailed in Zbrush with zspheres, I mean that face is an awesome eample, and some of the ones on the zbrush site show you can add a lot of detail really easily amd have a nice clean mesh.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Kaiskai
well actually adam you could go way more detailed in Zbrush with zspheres, I mean that face is an awesome eample, and some of the ones on the zbrush site show you can add a lot of detail really easily amd have a nice clean mesh.

I know, I'm just thinking that it *might* be hard to balance detail and simplicity in ZBrush, but I guess I'll just have to try it out.

[medula]

Adam and Kai,

That is part of the attraction of this program I guess. I say this because I came into some cash and I'm considering adding to my arsenal of 3D tools. Hrm . . .

I was going to buy some plug-ins (I won't name names) but replies to my emails have been null (ample time has been given - 2 weeks and 2 tries). Since Bhodi is gone, I could just buy a whole lot of steak and lobster and be just as happy I guess.

Anyone have some suggestions?

zBrush is looking good but then again my butt could use one of those nice Herman Miller chairs (http://search-desc.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&query=Aeron&categoryid=&ht=1&category3=25327&srchdesc=y&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&BasicSearch=&from=R2&catref=C3). :rolleyes:

[LucentDreams]

not sure what kind of work you do with C4D and what kind of plugins your interested in, but I might hold onto that cash, seems to me there were some recent nice plugins released, and some others I'm sure will comout in the near future, Not sure when the pro translucent plguin will be available, but I'm getting nice results now, Samir Has a nice Tree plugin n the works, the most recent tests have been amazing, Samir has that Dpack plugin set which is really nice I'd really look into it, that tool that allows you to draw splines onto an objects surface might come in handy with future tools ;) Paul everett has some really nice plugins available now, mymate which is an really handy material previewer, and VIsual selector is a tool no animator should go wihout. It can cut down animating times like a loaf of bread, at least double on really complex heirarchies, so easy to navigate through all the animatable objects in your rig.

[DeathCarrot]

The Cinema 4D modelling tools imo are defeneatly the best I have encountered, I have tried others, but which have all fallen short of the c4d modelling system, in c4d everything is accessible instantly, and i agree it is much more fun to use than other apps. There are admittedly a few tools which cinema lacks including n-gons, easy poly spinning and a good boole feature (which is going to be fixed soon.

btw, what's this ZSpheres thing all of you keep talking about? a form of modelling exclusive to ZBrush?

[medula]

Kai,

Thanks, I'll keep those in mind. My background is game art and animation; cutscences - static mostly some animated, In game polygon models (High and low counts - L.O.D. modeling), characters/objects and lot's of textures. My rigs never get too crazy for IK/SoftIK.

I was considering the "Z" for texture stuff. But the spheres thing caught my eye. Not sure anymore.

:shrug:

[LucentDreams]

coming froma game environment I would then highly recommend if your using C4D that you get BP, not sure what or when there will be an update, but even as is with the flaws that are there, it sits so nicely inside C4D I can't see using anything else, and support between BP and PS is pretty good, except for lack of many of PS7's blending modes. THe UV mapping right inside C4D is awesome, and BP is a great mapping tool IMO. I still used PS for most of the actual painting part on the one really big project I have done texturing on, but it was great for roughing in basic elements, then doing most the grunt work in PS, brinign it back in and doing touch ups and fixing seams in BP again since you get the direct feedback on the model, especially in raybrush mode.

[medula]

Kai,

Ya, I have BP and you made too much sense. So I decided to get a bigger back-up drive and some steak and seafood instead.

Thanks for keeping the peace! :thumbsup:

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by medula
Kai,

Ya, I have BP and you made too much sense. So I decided to get a bigger back-up drive and some steak and seafood instead.

Thanks for keeping the peace! :thumbsup:



care to send some of that steak to a poor starving artist? Live in Alberta land of beef, and I live on Rice, chicken and ground beef, and vegetables that I can afford. Where's the money for steak sniff sniff, mmmm steak

[doohicky]

For those of you talking about spinning poly's don't forget about
Steve Baines plugin called Spin Poly, its and awesome tool and you can get it at:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sulaco/spinPoly.html:bounce:

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