guess I'll have to make this an explicit thread ...

[Wegg]

Point Oven won't help. That only deals with vertex points.

What you need to do is export the motion data for the rig of your character out of Messiah and into your host application. People have done it. But your right in that it isn't nearly as easy as it should be.

[svintaj]

Messiah has an DirectX-exporter, I think it may help you?

/ Svante

[stooch]

i believe that this is the biggest and most important hurdle for messiah to overcome.

[David C]

The Direct X exporter does not export textures.... if it did then it would be serious tool for folks like me who make interactive programs ie: games/simulations,... untill then it just collects dust.


David

[Wegg]

Do your textures in your modeler/host application.

[freeschwag]

Is this being considered and looked at by pmg? I've seen this "request" on these boards
to have the capacity of motion export (via .fbx or collada) from posts as old as 2004... :eek:

With the new potential converts to messiah from Motionbuilder, it would seem financially
advantageous (new customers) to invest in the ability to actually export out motion data
to a common format. Am I smoking crack to be hoping this is on some "to do" list that
pmg is working on?

And Wegg...when you say to just use one's modeling package for the textures, are you
saying it's as easy as importing a fully UV-d and textured model into messiah, animating,
and then exporting out as .x ? (cause I've read in another post that in order to successfully
make this happen one has to hack the file...I think :blush: )

Lastly, should I just be emailing these types of questions to pmg itself or is this the best
place to get "official" answers (since the pmg site seems to have overlooked the importance
of a an official company-hosted forum)?

I'm not trying to be an ass-clown, but it's kinda weird thinking about plunking down $300
for an animation package that won't actually allow me to export out the motions I create for
the models I'm building for use in my game...

Thanks again for any feedback. :)

[Wegg]

There is an SDK and your welcome to write your own exporter. Thats how the .x exporter was written.

Lightwave allows you to do UVs and textures in its modeler. Import that textured model into Messiah. Rig it. . . animate it. . . and THEN start to tackle how to get that MOTION (not model with UVs etc.) out of Messiah and back into lightwave. Your choices are .mot, .bvh, the plugin etc. Lots of ways you could try it. Then when its in LW you export it out to whatever game engine you want with all your LIGHTWAVE textures and LIGHTWAVE bone weights etc.

Thats how Motion Builder does it.

[freeschwag]

Like I said, I'm not trying to be an ass-clown, but how is:

"There is an SDK and your welcome to write your own exporter." a viable solution for
the average artist who would be purchasing the software for character ANIMATION
work, not programming practice/education?

I don't have a problem importing in a pre-UV-d .obj file into Messiah and working with
it from there. My confusion was to whether or not this alone would solve the "exports
without textures" problem. From these two posts:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=356793 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=356793&highlight=export)
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=228985

it would seem like "Do your textures in your modeler/host application." is not going to
be enough to solve the problem.

Since Lightwave is not an option (another 580+ clams, plus the time to learn how to
use it) for me, I'm left wondering whether pmg is considering/addressing what seems to
be a fairly straightforward need in exporting out motion data created by messiah in a
common format. If direct-x is the vehicle to do this, and pmg has already committed
to that, then perhaps they are fixing the texture export problem? Without any idea of
just what they are doing besides bug-fixing the latest version (no roadmap, minimal
direct communication on these boards), I am left wondering whether I should
continue hoping to use messiah for what seems to be it's enormous benefit (by using
messiah's animation toolset), or try to look elsewhere for my character animation needs.

I was hoping some users might be able to say "yeah, I use it for my game engine, and
I just use *blah* as my converter", or something like that.

Still hoping. :)

[svintaj]

Am I smoking crack to be hoping this is on some "to do" list that
pmg is working on?

No, I also hope PMG will write a FBX exporter, that would benefit us all!:thumbsup:
But if you are frustrated today don't expect that PMG will make you happy tomorrow, because PMG has a big list! And that list was big even before the FBX format got famus, so I guess we all have to wait...

Afterall PMG haven't promised a FBX exporter and when I think more of it... isn't it Autodesks task to write such an exporter!?? Go and get a little angry at them for not supporting Messiah, it may be a good idea?
You might learn to program c and write your own exporter :buttrock:before PMG have the time to take care of it, seriously! It could take years...

/ Svante

[Nichod]

No, I also hope PMG will write a FBX exporter, that would benefit us all!:thumbsup:
But if you are frustrated today don't expect that PMG will make you happy tomorrow, because PMG has a big list! And that list was big even before the FBX format got famus, so I guess we all have to wait...

Afterall PMG haven't promised a FBX exporter and when I think more of it... isn't it Autodesks task to write such an exporter!?? Go and get a little angry at them for not supporting Messiah, it may be a good idea?
You might learn to program c and write your own exporter :buttrock:before PMG have the time to take care of it, seriously! It could take years...

Personally I think a COLLADA exporter would be better as its becoming more of a universal standard.

[PaulNewman]

Perhaps it's time for small studios and individual artists to do it like the big boys... do your own in-house proprietary software development as the project requires.

Another plus is that you diversify and if CG jobs are sparse, you can always fall back on your software engineering portfolio.

Yet another plus is that if you develop something others also want, you can sell plugins.

If your conversion plugins are good enough, perhaps you could go down in history as the one who brought messiah to the masses way back in 2006.

[Nichod]

I'm not even sure the SDK gives you enough access to actually create an export to Collada or FBX formats.

[David C]

Do your textures in your modeler/host application.
I do, but I use the final animated model in a 3d engine application, Quest3d. Right now my workflow is model in Hexagon and Sketchup texture in Bodypaint and animate in CD4 export as a directX with textures and animated bones, check and tweak in Deep Exploration and import into Quest 3d. I would love to be able to use Messiah in my workflow.

David

[Wegg]

Look guys. . . I HIGHLY doubt you will be able to just whip something up that will fully support Collada or FBX. I also doubt that pmG will focus on supporting either format in the near or even far future. They just don't mesh with how Messiah does things. Messiah doesn't paint its weights. etc. The .x exporter is there to show you that it CAN BE DONE but is not the focus of pmG.

You have to look at this in a more abstract level. If you REALLY want to use Messiah with your game engine then you have to get that motion out of messiah and into your host app. NOT THE MESH. NOT THE TEXTURING. Just the motion.

Again. . . JUST LIKE MOTION BUILDER DOES!!!

I have personally been in major productions where the TD has figured out how to do just that. The motion went from Messiah -> 3DSMax at the bone level.

I don't get why you expect Messiah to do it all for you.

People don't expect Alias/Autodesk to write exporters for them. They are handed Mel and are given a pat on the back.

[Nichod]

I've contacted a programmer about creating a Collada exporter/importer for Messiah. I'll let you know what response I get. I can't make any promises, but its worth a try. Would people be willing to contribute donations to the individual for his time?

[Nichod]

People don't expect Alias/Autodesk to write exporters for them. They are handed Mel and are given a pat on the back.

hehe. great quote.

[AlexK]

hehe. great quote.
Great and true.

[David C]

The .x exporter is there to show you that it CAN BE DONE but is not the focus of pmG.


Actually it is there to show that it can be done HALFWAY... ;-)
Like opening a door and then having it close as you step through.

No worries though I am happy with my present workflow, I just thought it would be nice to use my Messiah since it is such a great program. :-(

David

[Suricate]

I do, but I use the final animated model in a 3d engine application, Quest3d. Right now my workflow is model in Hexagon and Sketchup texture in Bodypaint and animate in CD4 export as a directX with textures and animated bones, check and tweak in Deep Exploration and import into Quest 3d. I would love to be able to use Messiah in my workflow.

David
Hi David,

you can do the following steps:

1. Export your model (with textures and UVs) from C4D to .X format
2. Animate in messiah and export in .X format
3. Use a text editor to put both .X files together in the way that I proposed in those earlier threads about using LW and messiah.
4. Give yourself a pat on the back.:)

As far as I can see, combining those two .X files gives you all the data that you need.

I don't say it's very elegant, but it should work.

[freeschwag]

Unfortunately, I'm not in a major production. I'm not a TD. I'm not a programmer.

I'm just a single artist/developer looking to use messiah as my character animation package.
I want to export out the animation it creates to use on models I've made in Silo to
ultimately use in a reasonably priced independent game engine (Beyond Virtual). I'm
having difficulty understanding why this is such an unusual expectation.

Is the majority of pmg's user-base major production houses with dedicated TD's/programmers
ready to dive in and code that which messiah lacks? I really have no idea. My main goal
was just to see what the options (if there were any) are in using messiah as my
animation package. :shrug:

From the responses, it would seem that messiah will not fill the basic need of exporting
it's data to a common format. :sad:

[Wegg]

Put it this way.

Does Word export Word Perfect documents?

[calilifestyle]

Put it this way.

Does Word export Word Perfect documents?


Um yeah it can i save as word perfect. hehe but yeah yeah its always a pain when working with file fromats.

[freeschwag]

Well, Wegg, no, actually, I've only found it only saves as:

.doc
.xml
.mht .mhtml
.htm .html
.dot
.rtf
.txt
.doc (RTF)
.wps

and here's a quote from Corel's blurb on what wordperfect opens:

"Standard Edition you can open over 150 different file formats!
This includes Microsoft file formats as well as many others, including PDF."

So what?


I fail to see your logic in the comparison. Is there a competing product
here that messiah is trying to keep their motion data from being imported into?
Isn't the point of an animation software to be able to use the animation data
on the models you animate, or should that not include getting that data out
of the animation software itself?

I can see that since this problem doesn't directly impact you and your needs,
you can basically dismiss it with "code your own" advice, which is quite
frankly just empty air in it's scope of feasibility.

I'm not going to waste any more of either of our respective time continuing on
with this, as you are not in a position to make any policy decisions for
pmg and I see no gain in attempting to change your perspective.

[Wegg]

I'm just trying to help you understand how things work with these different software packages. They try and accomidate as much as they can to make the product useful to as many people as they can and then hope that other developers help pick up the slack while they try and focus on making their product better.

Honestly if your looking for game engine support. . . I'd go buy a copy of MilkShape3D (http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/) and use Marek's really cool FXS -> BVH converter (http://maks.free.fr/tech/FXS_BVH_Convert.zip) thingie.

There. Whole new pipeline for ya. Go go town.

[Smedro]

Put it this way.

Does Word export Word Perfect documents?

If you want to get the text information out ouf Word, you can save it as a .txt file or as .rtf and every word prosessing app. out there is able to read these formats.

We don't ask for a super fancy file format. We ask for one of the standard exchange formats. Is this really to much? Would you by a modelling programm witch only supports its own format and not even the .obj format?

Other companies have the philosophy "to play well with others".

It's simply sad.

[Wegg]

Dude. . . I just posted the link to a converter.

BVH is like. . . the defacto motion format between all apps. Has been for a zillion years.

FXS is Messiah's native format.

FXS to BVH. Done. Thats your "copy text from Word to Word Perfect" solution right there.

[stooch]

Collada is awesome though, the day when you can just open up a messiah scene in any 3d app and vice versa would totally rock beyond all comprehension. Just open up a scene file, edit it and save it.

just look at this thread.

notice the programs already supporting it. I would love to see messiah on that list.

https://collada.org/public_forum/viewtopic.php?t=228&sid=914741596d6872aaa5ed0d3ecbe0bbc4

[calilifestyle]

Ok so here at work I use SolidWorks. and at home i have Modo Lighwave3d 3d max. ( been sitting on the idea of Messiah or XSi). Since i rather not install my stuff on work PC (Modo i have it installed ) . well lats month we needed to do Demo flight using X-plane ( flight sim program) well guess what nothing i have imports Solidworks files stuck . well Like Wegg said find a solution to your problem, I used Blender since it imports iges files and outputs X-plane -obj files , which the makers of x-plane give you to us with Blender. Probelm solved. Love your struff Wegg:thumbsup:

[Smedro]

@Wegg
The intention of my post was not to start a fight with you. I just think messiah would benefit from a collada exporter. I really do.

You posted the link to the converter as I was writing my post. As a (wannabe) good forum user, I have searched the forum for a game engine solution months ago. I have a copy of Milkshape (of course) and I already tried the converter (of course). The problem is, Marek's converter and the Milkshape BVH importer are more or less incompatible. It simply don't work, not even with the example scene that comes with the FXS->BVH converter. Maybe this is caused by the Milkshape importer? I don't know. The point is it's not that simple as you have posted.

What I don't understand is why the collada request is a red rag to you? It will not hurt anyone but help many.

[Wegg]

What I don't understand is why the collada request is a red rag to you? It will not hurt anyone but help many.

Collada support would be great. So would FBX or even native <insert your game engine format here>. Go for it! BUT PLEASE DO NOT bring it down to the "Why can't pmG see how important this is, they would sell so many more copies. . . How hard could it possibly be. . . I know because blah blah blah" level. If you want/need it bad enough you will figure out a way to make it happen without trying to blame your frustrations on anyone else. If you want my/others/pmG's support. . . you should do it in a way that doesn't constantly spin it back to pmG not somehow having the same vision for their product as you do.

Other things you can try.

Blender's BVH importer. (http://projects.blender.org/pipermail/bf-python/2005-December/003385.html)

Fragmosoft. (http://www.fragmosoft.com/fragMOTION/fragMOTION.php)

Maya importer. (http://www.highend3d.com/maya/downloads/plugins/utility_external/import/3895.html)

qavimator (http://qavimator.org/)

Amabilis (http://www.amabilis.com/products.htm)

I could probably go on but. . . I'm sure your just as good at Google as I am.

[Smedro]

Oops, I sense some bad vibrations. I think it's caused by my bad english, but you completely misunderstood my posts.

BUT PLEASE DO NOT bring it down to the "Why can't pmG see how important this is, they would sell so many more copies. . .
I never said so and more importand I don't think so. I just say collada would be great. So do you.

I could probably go on but. . . I'm sure your just as good at Google as I am.
:thumbsup:

The bad thing is, that all this solutions exclude messiah. This is a great pitty, because I love to use messiah. That's all.

Oh, and thanks for your effort.

[PaulNewman]

If, after exhausting as many avenues as you care to explore given your available resources, messiah still does not play nice (directly or indirectly), then use whatever else will play nice at this time.

It is a reality that budget may prevent someone from acquiring key tools and this may even frustrate the entire job entirely. I can easily understand this frustration aimed at messiah. Why get an entirely new tool just for conversion if messiah could just do it plain and simple. Jumping through hoops is not fun.

I wouldn't knock messiah if it couldn't do the conversion at this time. You can only wish, as we all do...

I would like to know what pmG's stance on this is. Do they want messiah to play nice or is their plan that it remains an obscure tool? Any software developer who wants market share will want to play nice. However, pmG may have a different timing strategy. If your app suddenly plays nice and suddenly 10,000 users get excited instead of just the few around here, and 10,000 users buy it just to discover the app itself is not mature mainstream stuff, then pmG is in a whole lot of trouble with many many non-guru-type users on their case instead of just a handful as they have now. Perhaps pmG is not as strategic as this and they simply have not gotten around to it. Whatever.

Use the tool that does the job now. Can't get the tool... drop the job.

[AlexK]

...instead of just a handful as they have now.
Actually I think they have something around at least several 1000 users, which I would not necessarily call a handful. I wonder sometimes why they don't show themselves. :sad:

[DMack]

Several thousand - That's more than I expected - That's good to hear. Hopefully it will grow.

[AlexK]

Well, I sometime ago picked up a quite large number of users from one of the insiders. Not sure about the exact number though and it probably is not a too good idea to give a too explicit number. If pmG wants to give an official statement they will give it.

[PaulNewman]

Knowing that human nature is to easily complain, why are there so few people here doing the complaining? If there were so many users, where are their voices? Or are they shy, just lurking? Don't think so, else the reader counts in this forum would have been sky high. Or did they give up so totally they just didn't bother voicing their concerns at all? Or are they all on the beta testing program tied down with pmG NDAs? Or are they in a parallel universe?

[Suricate]

Knowing that human nature is to easily complain, why are there so few people here doing the complaining? If there were so many users, where are their voices? Or are they shy, just lurking? Don't think so, else the reader counts in this forum would have been sky high. Or did they give up so totally they just didn't bother voicing their concerns at all? Or are they all on the beta testing program tied down with pmG NDAs? Or are they in a parallel universe?

I get a very creepy feeling ... I think it's us living in that parallel universe. Due to some strangeness in the time-space continuum we are stuck in a virtual world with messiah:studio 2.4d. But in the real word there a many tens of thousands happy messiah users, animating and rendering their blockbuster movies with a bugfree version of messiah and exporting their game data easily to any existing game engine ... :eek:

[Wegg]

The bad thing is, that all this solutions exclude messiah. This is a great pitty, because I love to use messiah. That's all.

All of the tools I listed mention their ability to import the .BVH motion format. Marek's tool converts Messiah's .FXS to .BVH so in theory Messiah could be used in all of them.

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by Smedro
The bad thing is, that all this solutions exclude messiah. This is a great pitty, because I love to use messiah. That's all.


Less whine more action. :-d I've received an email from my source and he is looking into it and I am sending out more emails to various contacts to see if there is interest. I requested a quote for their time and services. We'll see where it goes from there. I figure if I can't do it, then ask people who can for me.

[Nichod]

Update on Collada format for Messiah.

Quote from email:

"I downloaded the demo and I saw that plugins must be written in C++. Is this
correct?

We should keep in touch, because when I'm ready with the plug-in for
Blender, we should talk about the possibilities for Messiah."


I've emailed him back and he seems very interested. I'll keep everyone updated. Great news, since Collada is becoming a true 3D standard file format.

Programs that support Collada: Google Earth, Maya, Sketch up, XSI, Blender, Max, Lightwave, Daz Studio, Feeling Viewer, FX Composer, Houdini, a FBX to Collada converter is available as well. I'm not sure if there is a Collada to FBX converter or if Cinema 4D supports the format, does anyone know?

Core features of Collada: mesh geometry, skinning, morphing, animation and data validation as well as COLLADA FX for defining visual effects and COLLADA Physics for physics effects including rigid body dynamics, rag dolls, constraints and collision volumes.

Whats funny about my whole initiative is that I don't even own Messiah. hehe. But I'd love for it to be more flexible and I like chatting with the group on IRC. Maybe someday I'll buy a copy, but for now I'll help out where I can.

[AlexK]

Update on Collada format for Messiah.



I've emailed him back and he seems very interested. I'll keep everyone updated. Great news, since Collada is becoming a true 3D standard file format.

Programs that support Collada: Google Earth, Maya, Sketch up, XSI, Blender, Max, Lightwave, Daz Studio, Feeling Viewer, FX Composer, Houdini, a FBX to Collada converter is available as well. I'm not sure if there is a Collada to FBX converter or if Cinema 4D supports the format, does anyone know?

Core features of Collada: mesh geometry, skinning, morphing, animation and data validation as well as COLLADA FX for defining visual effects and COLLADA Physics for physics effects including rigid body dynamics, rag dolls, constraints and collision volumes.

Whats funny about my whole initiative is that I don't even own Messiah. hehe. But I'd love for it to be more flexible and I like chatting with the group on IRC. Maybe someday I'll buy a copy, but for now I'll help out where I can.
I really can express how much the (already big) respect has grow with this action. You are a great part of this community (kind of, well, I guess you are a part of this community but without one of these sexy red glowing badges every licensed use receives from pmG :D )

[Nichod]

I really can express how much the (already big) respect has grow with this action. You are a great part of this community (kind of, well, I guess you are a part of this community but without one of these sexy red glowing badges every licensed use receives from pmG :D )



Thanks. I should just get Messiah and use it. I bought XSI and its a powerful application. But rigging in XSI is MUCH more complex in comparision to Messiah. I also would have to agree with Rush on the node system being better designed in Messiah as well. Anyway, I have the Messiah demo installed and work through things from time to time.

[Smedro]

Hello Nichod, these are awesome news. Thank you so much!

[Gwot]

bvh is NOT fun to work with, especially if you don't have any rigging experience. Even then, it's a big enough pain in the ass that I just opted to go with Motion Builder in the end for game work because it really was a 1 button solution. If it was any good, I would think there'd be many more people posting in here about their success stories with it.

The FBX plugins were provided by kaydara and distributed for free for use in all the major animation packages. If pmG wants messiah to be useful for game work or just play nicer with other apps they should be providing this solution, just like kaydara did. That single feature got motion builder into more pipelines and freelance artists hands than any of the tools inside the program itself. Fbx also supports mesh data, which makes it perfect for when you have to send a whole character from say... XSI, over to Maya. Huge incompatibilities between those two, but with Motion Builder I had a character converted to a valid fbx transfer in minutes with all skinning intact.

Collada is the perfect opportunity for pmG to play catch up without having to do all the work creating separate plugins like fbx required for each application. Write one exporter/importer and be done with it. FBX would be nice, but I'd prefer to work with a more open format that isn't owned and maintained by a major 3d application company.

[stooch]

so i think that everyone here agrees of importance of collada for the future of messiah.

what does pmg think of this? are pmg guys alive? HELLLOOOOO!!!

[Nichod]

so i think that everyone here agrees of importance of collada for the future of messiah.

what does pmg think of this? are pmg guys alive? HELLLOOOOO!!!


Stooch. I have someone who is looking into it right now. I have actually been communicating back and forth with him all day. He is check the various abilities of Messiah and the feasibility of it right now.

I firmly believe that complaining repeatedly does nothing. You can't expect a company to just do something because you ask. Wish that was the case on many things. My ATI issue for instance :thumbsup: .

[stooch]

if you cant expect the company who makes your software to do what you ask, then why would you buy their softwarE?

I know for a fact that pmg listens to their users, i just dont know what they are doing now, or if they are even alive....

[Nichod]

if you cant expect the company who makes your software to do what you ask, then why would you buy their softwarE?

I know for a fact that pmg listens to their users, i just dont know what they are doing now, or if they are even alive.... Considering I got a PM from Taron today stating his encouragement on pursuing Collada support, then I'd say they are listening. And if you know for a fact that they listen to their users, then don't worry. Also, consider that a fix for Messiah was released on August 16 to support LW9. Relax.:beer:

[stooch]

right. now all that you have left to do is actually buy messiah :)

[Sbowling]

I'm not trying to be an ass-clown, but it's kinda weird thinking about plunking down $300
for an animation package that won't actually allow me to export out the motions I create for
the models I'm building for use in my game...

Thanks again for any feedback. :)

It comes down to using the right tool for the job. Messiah has a very slow development cycle... in fact if it were any slower is would be going backwards. If you want something to use for game development, great character animation and ability to import/exportx various formats, including collada and fbx I would recommend looking into XSI. Foundation is $500 and does all this and has a great modeler included. I would also argue that XSI is much more flexible than messiah.

[stooch]

if you want to learn a program that will actually get you a job and has industry standard animation, go with maya... xsi isnt taken seriously by many companies yet. I honestly dont know if it ever will be after the whole reinvention thing.

right now xsi has some of the most badass workflow and organization on the market, but if you look around, VERY few studios use it. kinda scary when you consider that messiah might be in the same boat and xsi seems to have their act together (if you are willing to ignore the horrible lapse of updates during softimage times).

[DaveW]

if you want to learn a program that will actually get you a job and has industry standard animation, go with maya... xsi isnt taken seriously by many companies yet. I honestly dont know if it ever will be after the whole reinvention thing.

With places like Valve, ILM, Mainframe, Studio Ghibli, Blur etc using it I think it's safe to say it's taken seriously by pretty much everyone, it's just not as widely adopted as Maya. Nearly everyone I talk to about messiah has no idea what it is and are very skeptical about it's abilities. Even when I demonstrate it's power, at best it becomes a mere curiosity to them, not something that could be used in the pipeline. There seems to be much more respect for XSI.

That said, I agree that there's more animation opportunites for Maya animators than any other software. I still see a fair amount of XSI job posts though, more than Lightwave or messiah.

[stooch]

absolutely. xsi has more interest then either lw or messiah, of course. too bad the total places that use maya / max outnumber xsi 10 : 1

im curious how modo will fit into in all of this. it seems to compete with them all.

[DMack]

I think Modo is going to compete head on with all the big apps AND at the same time look to less traditional markets - for example trying to get more print based artists to start doing some stuff in 3D. They mentioned interfaces for specific industries a while back - as far as I can remember. What's been delivered so far is very good. They do need to add way way more features and obviously animation before it will be clear how they will do....

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