Shapes 2: Shapes Bézier Path Tools in Corel Painter

[Jinbrown]

Shapes 2: Shapes Bézier Path Tools in Corel Painter

Painter's Shapes make use of Bézier curves—mathematical formulae that efficiently encapsulate a wide range of curvilinear objects. Bézier curves are the digital equivalent to the engineering draftsman's french curves. And speaking of France, it was the French automobile engineer Pierre Bézier that developed these curves for use in the Renault CAD/CAM automobile design system. Bézier curves have become the basis for vector-based drawing applications, such as Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator. The good news is that you don't need a degree in advanced mathematics to take advantage of Bézier curves—they are a completely visual curve creation tool.


Bézier Curve Terminology

The visual components of Bézier curves are remarkably simple. A Bézier curve is comprised of anchor points connected by line segments. In its simplest form this can be a straight line. When the path is a curve, wings extend from the anchor points. The wings have control handles on them. By dragging the wing's control handle, the curvature of the associated segment is adjusted. A line segment can be dragged and adjusted, as well. Line segments change in real-time as adjustments are made, making it very easy to arrive at the intended result. Both straight and curved segments can be used within a single line. A series of anchor points can be used to describe an amazingly complex line.

A path is either open or closed. An open path describes a line; a closed path describes a shape. Open paths have endpoints; closed paths do not.

Anchor points can be either smooth or corner points. A smooth anchor point allows the adjustment of the line segments on both sides of the anchor point by dragging its control handle. A corner point allows independent adjustment of the wing control handles.


Shapes Bézier Curve Adjustments

The Pen tool is the primary Bézier curve creation tool. Straight lines are created by simply clicking on the image. A Shapes layer is automatically generated. Clicking a series of points will result in a faceted line/shape. Clicking and dragging will create a smooth point with wings. An existing open path is added to by positioning the Pen tool over an endpoint. The cursor changes to the Resume at Endpoint cursor. Clicking the endpoint adds to the existing open path.

An open path is closed by positioning the Pen tool cursor over the initial endpoint. The cursor changes to the Join Endpoints cursor. Clicking on the endpoint closes the path.

The Shapes Direct Selection tool is the primary anchor point selection tool.


In Corel Painter, the tool is named Shape Selection. It's used to select and deselect Anchor Points, adjust Wing Handles, adjust Paths, and select all Anchor Points (the entire Shape).

The rough-equivalent tools in Photoshop 7 (and I'd guess in following versions) are named Path Selection Tool (black arrow) and Direct Selection Tool (white arrow).



Its cursor appears as a hollow arrow.


In Corel Painter the Shape Selection tool appears as a white-filled arrow.


This tool is accessed from either the Tool menu or by holding down the CTRL/CMD key when using any of the Shapes Editing tools.


It's true that holding down the Ctrl/Command key while any of the Shape or Shape Editing tools is selected activates the Shape Selection tool, with one exception:

In Corel Painter IX.5 (at least) when the Remove Point tool is active, holding down the Ctrl/Command key does not activate the Shape Selection tool.

However, if we hold down Ctrl/Command+Shift, a larger white arrow cursor is displayed and we can select or deselect individual Anchor Points or select or deselect all Anchor Points (the entire Shape).



When the Shapes Direct Selection tool is active, holding down the CTRL/CMD key will toggle the cursor to the Shapes Selection tool. Its cursor appears as a filled arrow. Click and drag on any portion of a Shapes element to move the entire element.


Since there is no Direct Selection Tool in Corel Painter, this is particularly confusing and it'll help if you can clarify.

It's true, the Corel Painter Shape Selection tool is a white-filled arrow.

In Photoshop 7 (and possibly in following versions?), when the Direct Selection Tool is active and we hold down the Ctrl/Command key we toggle to the Path Selection Tool (and vice-versa, Path Selection Tool toggles to the Direct Selection Tool).


A single anchor point is selected by clicking on it with the Shapes Direct Selection tool. Multiple anchor points are selected by clicking and dragging a selection rectangle around the points with the Shapes Direct Selection tool.

A selected anchor point displays its wings. The Shapes Direct Selection tool is used to reposition the points, as well as adjust the orientation of the wings. By default, each wing's length is independently adjusted. Hold down the Shift key to linearly adjust both wings.

The Convert Point tool converts a smooth point to a corner point and vice versa. A point is converted with the the Convert Point tool by positioning the cursor over the wing control point of an active anchor point and dragging the control point. The anchor point is converted. Further adjustment of the wings is performed with the Shapes Direct Selection tool.

Besides adjusting wing control points, the Shapes Direct Selection tool is used to move anchor points. Doing so changes the geometry of the Shape. Alternatively, Bézier path segments are directly manipulated by clicking and dragging the curve segment.

It takes a bit of practice to become facile with Bézier curve creation and editing. Wing control points can get looped. Curve segments can spring out into unexpected shapes. Your control will develop through usage of the Shapes curve adjustment tools.

Shapes Bézier Curve Editing Tools

These tools are used for radical surgery to existing Bézier shapes. The Scissors tool is used to split an open path or convert a closed path to an open path. Use the Direct Selection tool to first choose the path segment to be split. Select the Scissors tool and click on the desired point of the active path to split the segment. A new anchor point appears at the split point. Use the Direct Selection tool to click and drag the point. The line segment separates from the former single path. The new endpoints will have wings for adjustment.

The Add Point tool is used to add points to an existing open or closed Bézier path. Use the Direct Selection tool to first choose a path segment to add points to. Select the Add Point tool and click on the desired location on the path segment to add a point. A new anchor point appears on the path. Use the Direct Selection tool to adjust the point.

The Delete Point tool is used to delete points from an existing open or closed Bézier path. Use the Direct Selection tool to first choose a path segment to delete points from. Select the Delete Point tool and click on the desired existing anchor on the path segment to delete it. The anchor point is deleted from the path. The anchor points formerly on either side of the deleted point now create a path segment.


Shapes Freehand Bézier Quick Curve Tool

There are times when a more spontaneous Bézier path is desirable. The Bézier Quick Curve tool is useful in these situations. The Quick Curve tool is used similarly to other Painter brushes except that it results in a single weight Bézier open or closed path (depending on whether you connect the endpoints). As with all Bézier paths, line weight can be uniformly adjusted via the Shapes Attributes dialog after the fact. When drawing with the Quick Curve tool, a dotted line preview visualizes the path. When the path is completed (by lifting your stylus), the preview path converts into a Bézier path with anchor points.


Shapes Bézier Oval and Rectangle Tools

These tools are used to create the universally functional oval and rectangular shapes. By default, both tools create unconstrained ovals and rectangles. Perfect circles and squares are created by holding down the Shift key before clicking and dragging the cursor. Both ovals and rectangles contain adjustable anchor points.


Shapes, Selections, and Layer Conversions

Shapes are capable of being converted into both layers and selections. In fact, these three Painter constructs are highly transmutable: selections can be converted into Shapes and layers; layers can be converted into selections; selections can be converted into Shapes and layers (by constraining a selection fill on an existing layer). This interplay opens up many possibilities.

Shapes can be converted into either a layer or selection via the Shapes menu, the Shapes Tools Property Bars, or the Shapes Tools Contextual Menu.

Selections can be converted into Shapes via the Select menu, the Selection Tools Property Bars, or the Selection Tools Contextual Menu.

Layers can be converted into selections via the Select menu > Auto or Color Select commands or the Layer palette Contextual Menu.



Maybe I'm missing a tool? Try as I might, I can't find a Direct Selection Tool in any Painter version back to the earliest I have installed, Painter 5.0.3. ;)



Fun To Follow!

We are now finished with examining Painter's Shapes organization, tools, and adjustments. In the next installment, we'll take our Shapes knowledge and apply it. There are indeed some surprising ways to utilize Shapes into your workflow...or to just have fun!

Viva la Painter!

[tomt]

The white arrow tool Jin. It's a Photoshop term that I haven't seen in Painter

[Jinbrown]

Hi Tom,

Yep, I know John must mean the "white arrow tool", or the Corel Painter Shape Selection tool.

(I was joking about me missing a tool. )


I think John is getting his Photoshop tools and Corel Painter tools mixed up, easy to do when you use both programs.


The Direct Selection Tool is not a part of Corel Painter at all. ;)

[pixlart]

Hi Jin:

In Corel Painter, the tool is named Shape Selection. It's used to select and deselect Anchor Points, adjust Wing Handles, adjust Paths, and select all Anchor Points (the entire Shape).

The rough-equivalent tools in Photoshop 7 (and I'd guess in following versions) are named Path Selection Tool (black arrow) and Direct Selection Tool (white arrow).

There are 2 variations of the Shapes Selection tool in Painter; one is a hollow-filled arrow (the one on the menu), the other is a black-filled arrow (accessed by holding the CTRL/CMD key) when the Tool palette-based hollow-filled arrow is currently selected.

The hollow-filled variation is capable of directly selecting individual anchor points and wing control handles. The black-filled variation is only capable of—and used for—repositioning entire Shapes elements (in fact, that's what makes it conveniently available when in the hollow-filled variation—it is readily available by holding down the CTRL/CMD key).

Of course, you can use the hollow-filled variation to clck-and-drag a rectangular selection to encompass all of the anchor points comprising a Shape, but this is particularly daunting when other Shapes are nearby. The black-filled variation eliminates this issue by selecting a Shape only in its entirety.

I find it a bit unwieldy to refer to these to variations of Shapes Selection tool as the "hollow filled variation" and the "black-filled variation". The use of a hollow-filled cursor as a direct selection tool variation is a means of discriminating the tool from its black-filled-cursor-selects-the-entire-object cousin. I submit that a preponderance of Painter users have experience with object and direct selection tool variations based on other applications. Even if they don't, it is important to provide them with a conceptual framework that establishes the varying functions of these two closely-related cousins.

If there is no Painter documentation to describe these Shapes Selection tool variations, that's unfortunate. When I designed these tools and their user interface, I considered them to be the Shapes Selection (black-filled cursor) and Shapes Direct Selection (hollow-filled cursor) tools. Without this distinction, their differing roles is fuzzy. Tom T's recognition—without my explanation—is testament to the broad acceptance of of the hollow- and filled- cursor convention of segregating a tool's functionality into general (black-filled) and elemental (hollow-filled) roles.


It's true that holding down the Ctrl/Command key while any of the Shape or Shape Editing tools is selected activates the Shape Selection tool, with one exception:

In Corel Painter IX.5 (at least) when the Remove Point tool is active, holding down the Ctrl/Command key does not activate the Shape Selection tool.

However, if we hold down Ctrl/Command+Shift, a larger white arrow cursor is displayed and we can select or deselect individual Anchor Points or select or deselect all Anchor Points (the entire Shape).

Yes, this is a bug I noticed when writing the recent installment. When holding down the CTRL/CMD key while the Remove Point tool is active, the cursor does not change; however, the Shapes Direct Selection functionality is present—this tool (albeit with the incorrect cursor identification) still selects and adjusts individual anchor points as it should. This is a good example of how much we depend on visual feedback to be informed of a tool's current function.

Another bug associated with using the CTRL/CMD key in concert with the Remove Point tool (and Add Point tool, as well) is that the Property Bar incorrectly changes to the Layer Adjuster Property Bar if the tools is initially selected from the Shapes Editing Tools toolbar. The user must re-click on the Add or Delete Point tools in the Toolbar to reset the behavior. This behavior may be OS or graphics card related. For example, I am unable to duplicate your described behavior of summoning a larger white arrow cursor with the Ctrl/Command+Shift keys.

Since there is no Direct Selection Tool in Corel Painter, this is particularly confusing and it'll help if you can clarify.

There is a Shapes Direct Selection tool, and I've explained it above. If you choose to remain confused, that's your perogative. However, as a techer, I would hope that you'll adopt the terminology as was intended at the tool's creation—and it fits most users' conceptual foundation of cursor behavior.

Maybe I'm missing a tool? Try as I might, I can't find a Direct Selection Tool in any Painter version back to the earliest I have installed, Painter 5.0.3. ;)

It appears that the tool you are missing the Shapes Selection tool (black-filled), which is accessed by holding down the CTRL/CMD key while the default Shapes Direct Selection tool (hollow-filled) is active.

I fully realize that Painter's UI does not account for this variation. In my opinion as the author of these tools, the Shapes Direct Selection tool is incorrectly identified as the Shapes Selection tool in the interface. But the intended distinction is clearly there and I will always use—and teach—that the Shapes Selection tool has two modes: the general (black-filled) Shapes Selection Tool and the direct (hollow-filled) Shapes Direct Selection Tool.

I hope this clears up the apparent mystery.

Viva la Painter!

[tomt]

John, or Jin, or Cris,

I have a problem with the Bezier line tools in Painter since way back when, and I don't notice it in Photoshop, or Illustrator.

Anytime you make a sharp angle using the Bezier tools, you get a break in the line, where the width of the line overlaps itself.

In the example I posted here, the line is created with the Quick curve tool. I moved a couple of points to give the saw tooth. If you look closely, you'll see a couple of breaks in the line at the intersections, or radical direction changes. This illustration shows a line three points wide for the shape, and then duplicated and committed to create the layer. I've also blown up the image to 700% of the original.

The question is this; Is there anyway to avoid the breaks. I've never figured it out other than to go over by hand, any shape I've committed to smooth this out. Any other suggestions?

[Jinbrown]

Hi Jin:

There are 2 variations of the Shapes Selection tool in Painter; one is a hollow-filled arrow (the one on the menu), the other is a black-filled arrow (accessed by holding the CTRL/CMD key) when the Tool palette-based hollow-filled arrow is currently selected.

The hollow-filled variation is capable of directly selecting individual anchor points and wing control handles. The black-filled variation is only capable of—and used for—repositioning entire Shapes elements (in fact, that's what makes it conveniently available when in the hollow-filled variation—it is readily available by holding down the CTRL/CMD key).

Of course, you can use the hollow-filled variation to clck-and-drag a rectangular selection to encompass all of the anchor points comprising a Shape, but this is particularly daunting when other Shapes are nearby. The black-filled variation eliminates this issue by selecting a Shape only in its entirety.

I find it a bit unwieldy to refer to these to variations of Shapes Selection tool as the "hollow filled variation" and the "black-filled variation". The use of a hollow-filled cursor as a direct selection tool variation is a means of discriminating the tool from its black-filled-cursor-selects-the-entire-object cousin. I submit that a preponderance of Painter users have experience with object and direct selection tool variations based on other applications. Even if they don't, it is important to provide them with a conceptual framework that establishes the varying functions of these two closely-related cousins.


Hi John,

I agree it's unwieldy describing the Shape Selection tool cursor and the cursor displayed when the Shape Selection tool is active and we hold down the Ctrl/Command key as the "hollow filled variation" and the "black-filled variation".

It's also more than a little confusing, considering the following is what we see in Windows Painter IX.5 (both cursors solid white):

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/shape_selection_with_without_ctrl_cmd_key.jpg

And on the Painter IX.5 Tools palette:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/shape_selection_tool.jpg

Corel Painter IX screen prints are © 2004 Corel Corporation, reprinted by permission.


I also agree understanding concepts is important and since these tutorials are about Corel Painter, not about Photoshop or other programs, it seems reasonable to use Corel Painter Tools palette tool names and other terminology found in Painter when explaining these concepts.

Again, I think it's more than a little confusing to use names of tools that are not found in Corel Painter (i.e. Direct Selection Tool).

One pretty obvious reason being the user won't find that tool in Corel Painter and won't find reference to that tool in Help Topics because it's not a tool that's part of Painter.



If there is no Painter documentation to describe these Shapes Selection tool variations, that's unfortunate. When I designed these tools and their user interface, I considered them to be the Shapes Selection (black-filled cursor) and Shapes Direct Selection (hollow-filled cursor) tools. Without this distinction, their differing roles is fuzzy. Tom T's recognition—without my explanation—is testament to the broad acceptance of of the hollow- and filled- cursor convention of segregating a tool's functionality into general (black-filled) and elemental (hollow-filled) roles.


I've not been able to find the following in Painter IX Help Topics, using either the Search tab or Index tab:



Direct Selection Tool
Reference to the cursor displayed when the Shape Selection tool is active and we hold down the Ctrl/Command key


The words "direct selection" are used (not as a tool name but as a way of using the Shape Selection tool) in the following location:

Painter IX Help > Help Topics > Contents tab > Keyboard Shortcuts

On the right panel, click the link named Shape Tools.

On the next page, scroll down to the section named Shape Selection Tool and below that is a table listing keyboard shortcuts for making "direct selections" using the Shape Selection tool. For instance:

Select Start Point of Shape
Select Endpoint of Shape
Select Previous Point in Shape
... and so on
There is documentation in Painter IX Help Topics > Contents tab > Using Shapes explaining how the Shape Selection tool can be used and a couple of methods to select the entire Shape:

With the Shape Selection tool active, click the Shape
With the Layer Adjuster tool active, double-click the Shape

Yes, this is a bug I noticed when writing the recent installment. When holding down the CTRL/CMD key while the Remove Point tool is active, the cursor does not change; however, the Shapes Direct Selection functionality is present—this tool (albeit with the incorrect cursor identification) still selects and adjusts individual anchor points as it should. This is a good example of how much we depend on visual feedback to be informed of a tool's current function.

Another bug associated with using the CTRL/CMD key in concert with the Remove Point tool (and Add Point tool, as well) is that the Property Bar incorrectly changes to the Layer Adjuster Property Bar if the tools is initially selected from the Shapes Editing Tools toolbar.


In WinXP Home using Painter IX.5 that doesn't happen with the Remove Point tool. The Property Bar continues to display the appropriate controls. It does happen with the Add Point tool. The Property Bar incorrectly displays Layer controls when the Ctrl/Command key is held down.


The user must re-click on the Add or Delete Point tools in the Toolbar to reset the behavior. This behavior may be OS or graphics card related. For example, I am unable to duplicate your described behavior of summoning a larger white arrow cursor with the Ctrl/Command+Shift keys.


Yes, in WinXP Home using Painter IX.5, clicking the Add Point tool again does reset the Property Bar to display the appropriate controls.


There is a Shapes Direct Selection tool, and I've explained it above. If you choose to remain confused, that's your perogative. However, as a techer, I would hope that you'll adopt the terminology as was intended at the tool's creation—and it fits most users' conceptual foundation of cursor behavior.


While I not sure I can appreciate your tone in the quoted paragraph above, John, I can understand your frustration having someone question your tutorials. However, I'd expect your main interest would be in conveying accurate and clear information. That's the reason I comment on your tutorials when I find something that doesn't make sense based on what I see in Painter IX.5, and reading Painter IX.5 Help Topics.

Obviously, I don't choose to be confused or to remain confused. Nor would I hope to see other Painter users confused, which is the reason I make these comments and ask these questions.

As a teacher, and as a long time Painter user who loves the program and enjoys seeing others learn how to use it, I do my best to use terminology we see on the Painter interface and find in the Painter documentation. When there's a conflict of terms between the interface and documention, I generally use the terminology we see on the interface since that's where most users spend the majority of their Painter time and what is most familiar. I also (often) spend time explaining what the documention refers to when the terminology is not the same as what we see on the Painter interface.

Though you would hope that I'll adopt the terminology as was intended at the tool's creation, if that terminology is not used either on the Painter interface or in the Painter documention, it would not be possible for me.. or anyone for that matter unless they were there at the time (i.e. one of the developers or possibly a User Guide writer).. to know what was intended at the tool's creation.

I can't know what most users' conceptual foundation of cursor behavior is and doubt it's the same for all users or even most users. Again, I rely on the Painter interface and Painter documentation, not on concepts based on other programs even if they are in many cases similar to Painter's.

Though my time is spent helping Painter users learn how to use Painter, when the person is really struggling I do sometimes go out of my way to help them make the "translations" from Photoshop to Painter and have to hope that my Photoshop version (7) will be enough to help. Even at that, I don't spend a lot of time translating Photoshop to Painter since it's Painter we're using and Painter we are talking about learning. I've said many times that when coming to Painter from another program (usually this applies when the person is coming from Photoshop) it's best to think of Painter as a whole new program (which it obviously is). Then, if there are similarities with Photoshop, that's just gravy for the new Painter user who comes from a Photoshop background.


It appears that the tool you are missing the Shapes Selection tool (black-filled), which is accessed by holding down the CTRL/CMD key while the default Shapes Direct Selection tool (hollow-filled) is active.


Per my personal experience and both the Painter interface and Painter documention I'm not missing the Shape Selection tool which is accessed:

From the Tools palette by clicking the icon
By hitting the H key
By holding down the Ctrl/Command key when the Shape and Shape Editing tools are active (and in Painter 7.1, Painter 8.1, and Painter IX.5 when most of the Shape and Shape Editing tools are active).
See my demo illustration above, and the accompanying screen print of the Tools palette with the Shape Selection tool depressed and the Tool Tip displayed showing the name of the tool.

Better yet, see the screen prints below for Painter 5.0.3, Painter 6.1, Painter 7.1, Painter 8.1, and Painter IX.5, all together in one shot, each with Tool Tip displaying the name of the tool:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/P5678IX5_shape_selection_tool.jpg



I fully realize that Painter's UI does not account for this variation. In my opinion as the author of these tools, the Shapes Direct Selection tool is incorrectly identified as the Shapes Selection tool in the interface. But the intended distinction is clearly there and I will always use—and teach—that the Shapes Selection tool has two modes: the general (black-filled) Shapes Selection Tool and the direct (hollow-filled) Shapes Direct Selection Tool.


It's not possible to know what the intended distinction was but it is clear there are two cursors, the Shape Selection tool cursor and the cursor displayed when we hold down the Ctrl/Command key while the Shape Selection tool is active.


I hope this clears up the apparent mystery.

Viva la Painter!

There is no mystery. As I told Tom, I was joking about me missing a tool. What I wanted to understand was what you were saying.

There's obviously a problem with what you say was the intended name of the tool and the actual tool name (Shape Selection tool), clarity of the distinction between the Shape Selection cursor and the cursor displayed when we hold down the Ctrl/Command key while the Shape Selection tool is active, and that cursor's function. I refer to the second cursor only as a cursor since there is no accompanying tool available in the Tools palette or mentioned in the Painter documention... unless I just haven't found that documentation in which case it would be helpful if you can point it out to us.

The bug related to the Shape Selection cursor not displaying when we hold down the Ctrl/Command key while some Shape Editing tools are active is present in three Windows Painter versions so it's not a new thing in Painter IX.5.

It seems unlikely they'd do it after using the same tool name through five Painter versions, but maybe you can get the folks at Corel to name the Shape Selection tool as you intended and document the cursor (and its function) that displays when we hold down the Ctrl/Command key while the Shape Selection tool is active.



In the meantime, I'll continue teaching tool names and other terminology we actually see on the Painter interface and can find documented in Painter Help Topics and hope that Corel will continue to work on making that documentation clear and complete.

I'll also continue to question when I read something that isn't clear or just doesn't make sense based on what is seen on the Painter interface and in the Painter documentation.

This is not because I have nothing else to do, but because it matters to me if new Painter users are able to understand and use whatever they read that's written to help them use Painter.




Last but not least, I welcome questions and comments on anything I write to explain how to use Painter. If anyone finds something in my writing that doesn't make sense or isn't clear and accurate, please always feel free to let me know so I can either make corrections or just explain things more clearly.




Cheers!

[pixlart]

Hi Jin:

Despite every point you make to support your point of view, the fact remains that the Shape Selection tool's function changes when the the CTRL/CMD key is invoked. Have you even tried using it in this mode? The tool no longer selects individual Shapes elements; it is restricted to moving the entire Shapes object. These are two completely different functions. They cannot be blurred together to be the same tool.

Knowledge of a tool's different functions enables a user to work more efficiently. In my Shapes tutorial, perhaps it would have been simpler to retain the Shape Selection tool's existing naming convention and refer to the CTRL/CMD alternate as the Whole Shape Selection tool. By your logic, that too would have been an error since its name doesn't appear anywhere in the documentation.

Below is a scan from the Painter 4 documentation (it is Mac-specific, so no reference to the CTRL key). Unfortunately, this documentation has been lost through multiple documentation edits, by multiple owners, with multiple levels of understanding of the product.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9554/directselectionjs8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Either way, the user is deprived of useful functionality by relying soley on the documentation. I am choosing to teach these naming conventions to provide the user with an understanding of the tool's alternate functionality.

My goal is to educate the user and enhance their Painter abilities. There is no single right way to teach a subject. Each teacher brings her own style, personality, and experience to the student. We are different teachers with different teaching styles. I encourage you to continue explaining the Shapes Selection tool using the Painter nomenclature you're comfortable with; I'm going to explain it in the fashion that I believe helps others improve their Painter usage.

Readers of this forum have now been presented with two techniques for understanding this tool, and they can choose which is valid for themselves. This all have to say publicly regarding this issue. Jin, if you wish to continue this discussion, I suggest we do so offline.

Viva la Painter!

[Jinbrown]

Hi Jin:

Despite every point you make to support your point of view, the fact remains that the Shape Selection tool's function changes when the the CTRL/CMD key is invoked. Have you even tried using it in this mode?


Dear John,

This is not my "point of view" but what I see and what happens in WinXP Home Painter IX.5.

Yes, of course I've tried it (Ctrl/Command Key and Shape Selection tool), before saying anything about it, and I've told you what happens.



The tool no longer selects individual Shapes elements; it is restricted to moving the entire Shapes object. These are two completely different functions. They cannot be blurred together to be the same tool.


Talk to Corel about that because it's not Painter users who decided to call the tool on the Tools palette the Shape Selection tool and it's not Painter users who did not include another tool named Direct Selection Tool or mention it in the Painter documentation. It's not Painter users who wrote that documention and didn't explain the alternate cursor and its function.

If the two functions are blurred, it's because the distinction is not made clear by whoever has the power to make the distinction clear (I guess that would be Painter developers and writers of the Painter documentation).

I'm working with what I have (Painter IX.5, WinXP Home, and four earlier Painter versions) and asking questions to find a way to relate what you say to what's available in Painter IX.5 (WinXP Home) and in the documentation for Painter IX.5.

This is not because I, personally, can't figure out what to do but because many who read these tutorials are brand new to Painter IX (IX 9.1 or IX.5) or earlier Painter versions and they can be confused.



Knowledge of a tool's different functions enables a user to work more efficiently. In my Shapes tutorial, perhaps it would have been simpler to retain the Shape Selection tool's existing naming convention and refer to the CTRL/CMD alternate as the Shapes Object Selection tool. By your logic, that too would have been an error since its name doesn't appear anywhere in the documentation.


Yes, it's obvious that knowledge of a tool's different functions enables the user to work more efficiently.

I agree it would be simpler to call the Tools palette tool what Painter IX.5 and four earlier versions call it (Shape Selection tool). Since there apparently is no tool either on the Tools palette or mentioned in the documentation that you suggest might have been called the Shapes Object Selection tool (or whatever other name), it might also help to make it clear that tool won't be found in the Tools palette and searching for information about it in the Painter documentation, the Painter user won't find anything.

It seems pretty simple to me to just use descriptive terms without indicating that's the actual name of the tool (the alternate cursor function).


Either way, the user is deprived of useful functionality by relying soley on the documentation. I am choosing to teach these naming conventions to provide the user with an understanding of the tool's alternate functionality.


I don't think anyone relies solely on the documentation. If they do, it seems an odd way to learn the program and eventually they'll have to actually use the program if they're going to do anything with it.

Matter of fact, many Painter users avoid reading the User Guide or Help Topics like a plague and prefer to just plunge in and learn by seeing what happens when they try things.

You don't need my approval nor do I need yours to teach the way we feel is best but I'll say that I think you're right to use your own terms to describe things when it helps to convey what you want to convey to the student.

I just think it saves confusion to indicate what the actual names for things are so if the Painter user needs to find more information, or find the tool, they'll be able to.



My goal is to educate the user and enhance their Painter abilities. There is no single right way to teach a subject. Each teacher brings her own style, personality, and experience to the student. We are different teachers with different teaching styles. I encourage you to continue explaining the Shapes Selection tool using the Painter nomenclature you're comfortable with;


My oh my! This has nothing to do with what name I'm comfortable using. I don't care what the tool is called. It could have been named anything, even Direct Selection Tool, but it wasn't named that obviously, so we're stuck with that fact of the Painter interface and documentation until Corel changes it.


I'm going to explain it in the fashion that I believe helps others improve their Painter usage.


And so you should, John. The way you teach sheds new light on the various subjects. It's interesting, and a lot of people are benefitting from your efforts.

Agreed, there is no single right way to teach Painter or to teach anything just as there is no single way to create art.

As I've said over and over again, my point in asking questions about your tutorial was to understand what you meant and to let you know it might be helpful to explain for the benefit of other Painter users, things that were confusing. I hope you've taken time to look at the demo image and screen prints I posted and to read the Help Topics sections I listed. If not, you'll probably continue to think this is just my "point of view" rather than understanding what I've said.


Readers of this forum have now been presented with two techniques for understanding this tool, and they can choose which is valid for themselves. This all have to say publicly regarding this issue. Jin, if you wish to continue this discussion, I suggest we do so offline.

Viva la Painter!

I couldn't agree more. Now that this has, unfortunately, strayed off into unrelated and personal comments, it's time to move on and I have no wish to continue the discussion privately. It's already taken far more time than I can afford and more than you probably wanted to spend.

Hopefully, some who've read this thread have learned things they didn't already know... about Painter.


Best wishes to all....

[Jinbrown]

OK,

Now that I've posted my "last" message, I see your scan from Painter 4. Thanks for posting it just so we could see the same thing.

I cracked open my Painter 4 User Guide and, on page 14, I see pretty much the same thing:


The Direct Selection tool (light arrow or hollow arrow.. without Painter 4 installed I can't tell just looking at the icon)
The Whole Shape Selection tool (black arrow)
In the Painter 5 User Guide, the equivalent page lists only the Shape Selection tool and suggests three methods to select the entire Shape:

Click the Shape with the Shape Selection tool
Draw a marquee over all or part of the Shape
Click the Shape's name in the Floater list
In the Painter 6 User Guide, the equivalent page(s) list only the Shape Selection tool and refer the reader to another part of the User Guide to learn how to select Layers.

In the Painter 7 User Guide, the equivalent page(s) list only the Shape Selection tool and refer the reader to another part of the User Guide to learn how to select Layers.

In the Painter 8 User Guide, the equivalent page(s) list only the Shape Selection tool and don't seem to mention how to select an entire Shape (I guess it's obvious by now it can be selected in the ways listed in the Painter 5 User Guide).

Without spending more time hunting, it appears the developers have phased out the second tool (Whole Shape Selection tool, black arrow) and not bothered to explain the Ctrl/Command key alternate cursor because it's not really needed anymore.

Just a guess.

In any case, I had no doubt that what you explained was, at one time, the way Painter was designed. If you still see two tools on your Mac then there's a real disconnect between Mac and Windows Painter but as I understand what you've said, you see one tool in the Tools palette and the other "tool" is invoked by holding down the Command key while the Shape Selection tool is active.

We're definitely not seeing the same cursors (hollow and black for Mac and two solid white cursors for Windows).

Off to live other parts of my life now. ;)

Have a great day!

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