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jdates
01-26-2003, 03:49 PM
With all the "complaining" and "constructive critizisim" we all generate about A:M, I'm proposing something productive. (or not)

I propose a contest.

If you could re-design anything about how to access, view, control, or manipulate anything about the A:M INTERFACE
Post it in this thread. Heck, if you are adept at a paint program i'd suggest moching it up for us all to see.

Now this is not a toolset request, it is mainly to see what interface additions or changes should be made to make A:M more intuitive to use.

Then when we all vote on the best suggestions, compile them into one "uber-interface" and I'll walk that over to Randy and see about starting to get it implimented. At the very least he'll know where the "problem areas" are and will be aware of what we'd like.

Good luck, and we'll see how this goes.:D
jdates



So far:

*Hot Key to "reveal selected" in the PWS (by: My Fault)
*Working Screw and Thumbtack implimentation (by: My Fault)
*Camera/Light View will actually reposition the Camera/Light in the scene when Zoomed, Panned, Dollied, or Orbit. (by: Graham Clark)
*The above Camera View movement should be a toggle. on/off.
*a "Tabbed" System (by: Hellborn)
*Totally customizable UI parameters (by: SqueakyPics)
*More accessable UI controls for Lathe (by: Filip Louwet)
*A more Maya_like "Properties Panal". (by: ragtag)
*The option to toggle "triangles" or "tabs" in the property Panal.
*A connection/dependency graph (by: ragtag)
*Color Coding in the PWS ( John Keates )
*A better Shift+Select in the interface... it seems buggy now
*Copy Paste with Attributes.. in the interface would be great.
*Interactive weight manipulators in the interface for Bone influences.
*More ways to view The Material Tree. (drag-n-drop)

jdates
01-26-2003, 04:26 PM
I'm posting this before someone else does.
This is a request for any version really. I did a moch up in 8.5 because it's the only version I have here at home.

I'd like to see this feature added with the hotkey:

(Ctrl + Shift + Tab + Alt + S + F4 + Num 5)

http://www.kungfukoi.com/misc/jokeinterface.jpg

I'm hoping the other entries will be serious.:scream:

jdates

My Fault
01-26-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by jdates
I'm posting this before someone else does.
This is a request for any version really. I did a moch up in 8.5 because it's the only version I have here at home.

I'd like to see this feature added with the hotkey:

(Ctrl + Shift + Tab + Alt + S + F4 + Num 5)

http://www.kungfukoi.com/misc/jokeinterface.jpg

I'm hoping the other entries will be serious.:scream:

jdates

Haha, that's just evil! :p

Great idea though.

First off I would shoot the new "triangle motif" Who tought having to constantly open up triangles to get to everything was a good idea? Randy, I'm looking at you :rolleyes: I know, I will try to come up with what I think is a better idea, but those damn triangles just piss me off so much! ;)

jdates
01-26-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
First off I would shoot the new "triangle motif" Who tought having to constantly open up triangles to get to everything was a good idea? Randy, I'm looking at you :rolleyes: I know, I will try to come up with what I think is a better idea, but those damn triangles just piss me off so much! ;)

Well XSI handles it this way, as does Maya. However, in both packages you can select an object and hit a hotkey (in XSI it's "f" for frame) and it automatically opens up the workspace to reveal it. Some hotkey to open up selected attributes would indeed be cool.

XSI and Maya both allow for "workspace" filters too. If you ONLY want to see the translations of objects you turn on the "Translations only" filter and bam! when you open that arrow on an object you ONLY see it's translations. You could have lots of filters for Poses, Materials, relationships..etc etc

jdates

Cydonian
01-26-2003, 05:01 PM
If they get *this* down, they'll sell millions....

My Fault
01-26-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by jdates
Well XSI handles it this way, as does Maya. However, in both packages you can select an object and hit a hotkey (in XSI it's "f" for frame) and it automatically opens up the workspace to reveal it. Some hotkey to open up selected attributes would indeed be cool.

XSI and Maya both allow for "workspace" filters too. If you ONLY want to see the translations of objects you turn on the "Translations only" filter and bam! when you open that arrow on an object you ONLY see it's translations. You could have lots of filters for Poses, Materials, relationships..etc etc

jdates

You know AM does have filters, I think they need to document them more and make them a bit more powerful. For instance you can have a filter on bones. I'd like to see them add names and or wildcard to the filter as well. So say my character may have 200 bones and nulls, but only 20 of them are used to animate. I'd like to only have the 20 I animate show and never see the others. Right now if some of the other bones get keyframed along the way, by say keying the pelvis and then all the descendents get keyed, those other bones will show up wether you want to or not.. The screw, pushpin motif doesn't seem to wqork in all instances.

I like the hotkey idea. Joe W mentioned this as well and I think it's solid.

jdates
01-26-2003, 05:08 PM
I don't see Make-->Dinosaur!?
What about Make-->Gollum?

man, they aren't reaching thier potential.

:D
jdates

jdates
01-26-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
The screw, pushpin motif doesn't seem to wqork in all instances.


Absolutly! If they could get that screw pushpin working, that'd be perfect. You could select only the things you wanted to see, and the rest would just go away!

Again, that was Randy. He was implimenting that better, and got pulled off. :rolleyes:

jdates

jdates
01-26-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by My Fault
You know AM does have filters, I think they need to document them more and make them a bit more powerful. For instance you can have a filter on bones.

Right. I'm talking about better filters. Imagine you only wanted to deal with the relationships on your bones? You could filter the bones, then say "ok show me just the relationships on the bones". Or "just show me rotation on bones"...

Perhaps two filters.. and object filter (type of object) and an "input filter" (rotations, translations, both...etc) Just so you could only look at what you wanted to.. and not have to have it all there in your face.

gra4mac
01-26-2003, 05:45 PM
Before A:M I used Strata Studio Pro. It ha a lot of shortcomings, but I really like the way the did the camera and spotlight controls.I'd love to see something like this in A:M. I sent this to Steve a while ago. The cam and spot light widows are similar. With the spot, you see in the window what the spot sees.

Cheers, Graham

gra4mac
01-26-2003, 05:49 PM
This is thespot window.

Cheers, Graham

My Fault
01-26-2003, 06:04 PM
You can do this already. Right click in the Choreography and pick "View". That will let you view through the camera, the lights and the normal left , front, etc.

gra4mac
01-26-2003, 06:54 PM
Another advantage of open discusion, you learn things. Thanks for the tip. In the Strata windows you can zoom, pan, dolly, crane, roll, etc for both cam and spot. All the controlls are in one easy to use area.

Cheers, Graham

jdates
01-26-2003, 08:12 PM
Man I couldn't agree more.

Looking through a light is an important feature. However, being able to "fly" the camera view or light view should be a big feature.
That should be added to that "wish-list" thread.

Having to open two windows to position the camera is annoying.
XSI and MAYA both have the flying camra view thing, so that when you orbit, dolly, zoom, or pan, you are actually moving the actual camera.

Perhaps a toggle on the view's window? Somethin'

HellBorn
01-26-2003, 09:04 PM
Just going back to the v8.5 interface would be greate.
The tab system is much faster and uses less space than those drop downs of today.

The new property dialog is a disaster.

Squeakypics
01-26-2003, 09:21 PM
I find that the pop up info panel thing always seems to get in the way when I am modelling. It would be very handy to be able to specify how far from the curser it appears.

jdates
01-26-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Squeakypics
I find that the pop up info panel thing always seems to get in the way when I am modelling. It would be very handy to be able to specify how far from the curser it appears.

Yeah, I've always wanted the ability to customize any feature they give us. UI is just as important as toolset IMHO.;)
This would easily fall under that catagory.

:scream:

Filip Louwet
01-27-2003, 06:10 PM
Hi there,

I always found it setting the number of cross sections for a lathe involved too many steps. I think a lot of users always keep this setting at the default value (8 or something like that...) just because of this.

Wouldn't this be an easier way:

http://users.skynet.be/bk261024/lathe.jpg

cheers,
Filip

jdates
01-27-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Filip Louwet
Hi there,

I always found it setting the number of cross sections for a lathe involved too many steps. I think a lot of users always keep this setting at the default value (8 or something like that...) just because of this.

Wouldn't this be an easier way:

cheers,
Filip

What if when you hit "Lathe" a small window popped up asking you how many cross sections? Many users (myself included) would much rather input a value.

Perhaps the ability to toggle the windows? Having a default Lathe value is nice. Dunno.. what would be a good way to have a default AND a quick override??:shrug:

jdates

ragtag
01-27-2003, 11:01 PM
Steal Maya's channel box. It's very small, gives you access to translate,rotate,scale,visibility and whatever else you like. You can middle click and drag in the viewport to "slide" numbers up and down, you can multi select attributes and edit all at once....and so on and so on. Get Maya PLE, study it and implement it.

Connection graph. It's basically a graph where you see all connections between things. This can be used for setup, you can see what sliders are controlling what bones, what's constrained to what, skinned to what, where the smart skin comes in and so on. It could also include materials, where you could see and link together all kind of different attributes for materials (isn't Darktree like this?).

A small timeline with little ticks that show keys on the selected object (these ticks can be moved around, copied etc). Sort of like you would show only one line of the current "dope sheet". Showing only selected channels (in the channel box above) as an option would be cool too.

That's all I can think of now. :)

Ragnar

3DArtZ
01-28-2003, 05:11 AM
I really wish I would wake up one morning and this whole "new' interface would have just been a bad dream.
Simple, logical, effective, ergonomic. that was 8.5.
They had a proven interface.... they should have just worked on the new features instead of redoing the layout.
Anyone else miss 8.5?

My Fault
01-28-2003, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by 3DArtZ
Anyone else miss 8.5?

Is it wrong to sleep with 8.5 under my pillow? :p

I liked the simplicity of 8.5's ui. I do like some of the suggestion in this thread on how v10 can be brought back on track. Right now it screams, built by a programmer. Now we just need to needle Randy to make it more artist friendly.

Cydonian
01-28-2003, 07:07 AM
Amen. I too liked the 8.5 interface much better. Apart from v9's other problems, the interface changes (and the accompanying project-workspace window redraw bug) really irritated me. A lot.

Wegg
01-28-2003, 07:37 AM
Didn't they have to change the interface a lot to accommodate the relationship editor? That thing sounded pretty cool to me. . .

My Fault
01-28-2003, 07:48 AM
I don't see why they needed to take such a drastic tack as the one they did though, even with relationships (which are really cool). The new "triangle motif" makes it so everything is nested within something else so that you must click down further and further in the hiearchy to do anything now. I know they wanted to try something new, but I don't think they are there just yet. From what I've heard this whole triangle idea was supposed to be temporary but Randy never had the time to go back and change it.

zandoria
01-28-2003, 05:37 PM
You can turn-off the triangles in V10, and just access everything through the properties panel as in 8.5

...That change in the program going back towards 8.5 in version 10 was announced by Martin at last years Siggraph.

I would like to be able to customize the interface more--like you can do with your workspace in Rhino, custom icons, scriptable custom buttons for commands, that would be kewl!

My Fault
01-28-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by zandoria
You can turn-off the triangles in V10, and just access everything through the properties panel as in 8.5

And you can do this how?

zandoria
01-28-2003, 06:34 PM
Tools>Options>General

There is a checkbox for the triangles. :)

...where oh where is that manual (sigh).

jdates
01-28-2003, 07:58 PM
I think it would be important to have an option that allowed you to have Tabs or Triangles. User preference and all that.

Didn't they have to change the interface a lot to accommodate the relationship editor? That thing sounded pretty cool to me. . .

How so? I think having a dependincy/hypgraph graph thing is going to be hard to convince Hash to impliment personally. Not to mention it'll be intimidating to new users.

However, if they did, how would we want it to act and look?
I'm sure we can get Randy excited about it, if we can show him the usefullness.

jdates

John Keates
01-28-2003, 08:10 PM
There are little things that could be done with the project workspace. I would like each section (models, coriographies etc) to have a different colour. Most of the icons seem to be yellow and it is not as easy to scan about as it could be. There could also be some kind of marker for the top and bottom of an object. I know that everything is nested but the more it is nested, the less space you get and things don't jump out as much as they could. Colour-coding is basically what I am talking about.

Also, I sometimes use a filter to get easy access to an object that I want to make lots of instances of, but I can't find a way to do this without those instances appearing in the filter (they are also objects and have the same name), I have to scroll back up to the top to find my model. Maybe we need exclusion as part of the filter thing (eg exclude instances).

Oh, by the way, (in reference to above), If you hold shoft as you turn or move, you move the camera (don't have to open new window).

John Keates
01-28-2003, 08:20 PM
I meant shift. A shoft is a shop in a loft.

jdates
01-28-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by John Keates
There are little things that could be done with the project workspace. I would like each section (models, coriographies etc) to have a different colour. Most of the icons seem to be yellow and it is not as easy to scan about as it could be. There could also be some kind of marker for the top and bottom of an object. I know that everything is nested but the more it is nested, the less space you get and things don't jump out as much as they could. Colour-coding is basically what I am talking about.

Also, I sometimes use a filter to get easy access to an object that I want to make lots of instances of, but I can't find a way to do this without those instances appearing in the filter (they are also objects and have the same name), I have to scroll back up to the top to find my model. Maybe we need exclusion as part of the filter thing (eg exclude instances).

Oh, by the way, (in reference to above), If you hold shoft as you turn or move, you move the camera (don't have to open new window).


Yeah, I agree about the icons not helping with easily finding your objects... More color, and color-coding would be helpful. A default, and an override would be nice.

The more powerful filters are indeed needed. The options to "show selected Only" would help.

The Shift+turn and Shift+move is not implimented well IMHO.
I want to toggle into that mode, and be able to orbit around a selected object. (like in the model view). Shift+M doesn't give you dolly movement right and left.. only in z? I think this could be implimented better.

A couple of others I noticed,

It would be nice to have "interactive" handles in the interface for the Bone "Fall-Off for the point influence.

Shift+Select in the interface is a must. It's sort of there but doesn't seem to be implimented well. I want to shift+select and be able to rotate or translate both objects.

Also copy+paste objects in the Chor with the same settings PLEASE!

Compute bone wieghts seems kind of broken right now? It'd be a neat feature..

Thoughts?

Skevos_Mavros
01-29-2003, 09:17 PM
I'm not 100% sure what is meant by "filters" (maybe more than one thing?). My 3D experience is limited:

Imagine (PC and Ami), LW5, AM.

:)

In AM v10 you can select several Choreography objects in the PWS, and toggle one of their Draw Mode/Render Mode/Pickable-Non-Pickable icons, and all the other objects' icons will also change. A quick way to make several objects go away or be not pickable at once.

Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Not sure about v9.51e, couldn't be bothered to load it up as I am using v10 right now. :)

My Fault
01-30-2003, 12:39 AM
At the top right hand side of your Project Workspace in 9.5 and 10 there is an arrow. When you click on that you can choose a filter. It lets you creat a workspace that is defined by what you choose in the filter. Say you want to only see a camera that is animated, you can do that with a filter.

What we were talking about adding, was a wildcard feature so you can only see bones that have "arm" in the name, or objects that start with "bob", etc. Just another way to give you more control in what you have to go through to do your work.

Skevos_Mavros
01-30-2003, 01:00 AM
Ah. I get it.

I had forgotten about that feature until your post (I think I stumbled across it a while ago). Thanks!

And I see that there is no "bone" type to filter by. So yes, this feature could do with a bit of tweaking.

:)

Thanks for the reminder though!

JoeW
01-30-2003, 11:46 PM
The problem I've run into with their "filters" and such is that when you get a heavy project in there, it slows to a crawl while it decides what you're doing. Features that slow down interaction, are not a good idea. I've also been having a lot of problems with the PWS and the old "shifting icons" problem. Nice.

And while I'm on the slowing down thing, I'd have to say that the "lock" on the raytrace render is the dumbest thing I've ever seen - that needs to have the option of turning it OFF. I used to use the quick scanline to check colors and such really quickly, hit escape - then press on with what I'm doing. NOW, if you forget that the render zone is still active, you can lose minutes at a time because it doesn't free up memory when you hit Esc, and you end up having to wait while it get's it's shee-it straight. I think I've lost 2 or 3 hours over the past week to that "good idea"....

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this (probably did) but you *can* move, dolly, pan and zoom the camera while looking through it......

JoeW

binder3d
01-31-2003, 04:07 AM
Ive always liked the electric Image interface. Very friendly and easy to understand

Skevos_Mavros
01-31-2003, 04:55 AM
You can disable the render lock feature.

Use the Customise Tools option to add the original quick render button back to your toolbar. And I guess you can even delete the Quick Render Lock feature while you're at it if you like, though it does have its uses.

jdates
01-31-2003, 05:05 AM
What?! Yeah, the renderlock can be disabled, but personally I lobbied to have that feature installed!

It's a quick IPR (interactive preview renderer). If you're tweaking lights, or textures, the Render Lock provides a cool way to do that. Interactive fog, etc.. It's a neat tool, but as with any UI feature, should have an override for the user.

So it can be turned off! :D

jeff

JoeW
01-31-2003, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by jdates
What?! Yeah, the renderlock can be disabled, but personally I lobbied to have that feature installed!

It's a quick IPR (interactive preview renderer). If you're tweaking lights, or textures, the Render Lock provides a cool way to do that. Interactive fog, etc.. It's a neat tool, but as with any UI feature, should have an override for the user.

So it can be turned off! :D

jeff

Skevos - thanks for the tip.. I could swear I looked for that, but couldn't find it (is that any suprise in V10?)...

Jeff, it's an OK feature if you've got a simple scene and are working on simple textures, but my latest "creation" is using some of Yves Poissant's light arrays, and my object has a patch count over 40K.. so it makes for a slowwww time

But, if I can disable it, I'm happy...well, happiER.....

JoeW

John Keates
01-31-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by jdates

The Shift+turn and Shift+move is not implimented well IMHO.
I want to toggle into that mode, and be able to orbit around a selected object. (like in the model view). Shift+M doesn't give you dolly movement right and left.. only in z? I think this could be implimented better.

A couple of others I noticed,

It would be nice to have "interactive" handles in the interface for the Bone "Fall-Off for the point influence.

Shift+Select in the interface is a must. It's sort of there but doesn't seem to be implimented well. I want to shift+select and be able to rotate or translate both objects.

Also copy+paste objects in the Chor with the same settings PLEASE!

Compute bone wieghts seems kind of broken right now? It'd be a neat feature..

Thoughts? [/B]


Yes, I aggree with all that you have said. I suspect that the "compute CP weights" thing is something that Hash are likely to work on. More visual bone controll is something that I have requested before. The ability to set bone rotation limits would also be nice as would wieght painting. Once hash has got the code for CP painting then this could also be used for things such as porcilain amount painting or colour/transparency/texture map amount painting etc.

I was a little bemused by the "shift - dolly" thing also. This could be sorted quite easily I suspect.

Oh, and the ability to copy and move multiple instances around is a must for complex scenes. When I first used folders and discovered that I couldn't click on one and move its contets around, I assumed that it was a bug (one of those things that needs "fixing" like raytraced shadows and dark lights (remeber them)). I mentioned it to Hash and they had a go at me for not sending it in as a feature request. To me, it is such an obviouse ommission which could be easily solved that it is a borderline bug. Folders are nice to organize things but we also have filters (theoretically) anyway.

Multiple instancing wizards please!!

Oh, and whilst I'm at it, I would love to be able to add a constraint to multiple instances (eg have a load of rocks translate too and orient like a null (keeping thier relative offsets).

The long and short of it is that I love the set-up of the AM interface. It has great potential, but we need to be able to realy push it if we are to easily produce scenes with more than just two characters and a table.

runejw
01-31-2003, 01:48 PM
I've played around with the various demos out there.

On the interface side AM does a decent job (at least in 8.5), and it is quite intuitive. Especially the camera and spotlight controls are nice. Materieal and object hierarchy likewise good. Choreography concept also good. I remember I was animating the Pterodactyl included on the CD on one of the first days using AM2K, mainly because of the simplicity of setting up camera, poses and animation paths.

Other than that, XSI is the interface I like the best. :thumbsup: (But unfortunately XSI is just a dream for the hobbyist-budget :cry: ) I hope they will lower their price like Maya... I hope they will lower their price like Maya... I hope...

C4D is second - simple but maybe too simple.

Maya is third. (Too much space taken up by property-panels where you expand, expand, link, expand to get to some non-intuitive setting/property.)

LW is fourth, although I understand some people like the icon-less interface.



Cheers,
Rune

JoeW
01-31-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by runejw


LW is fourth, although I understand some people like the icon-less interface.

Cheers,
Rune

Very interesting that you would rate LW last in your list. Hmmm. Not that I have an issue with that (after all, everyone is entitlied to an opinion) but I like LW's interface better than any of the others. Context sensitive property panels are very nice, although at times it would be nice to have more than one open at a time.

All in all, I think AM8.5 had the easiest overall interface. When the XSI guys came down from Canada to give us a demo, I showed them AM when they were done. The lead developer kept saying, "Yes, well you can do that in XSI, too" - and I kept saying, "You're not paying attention - How many dialog boxes did I have to access to do that? How many pull-downs? How many expressions did I have to write? You guys keep missing the point that until your software is *intuitive* most *artists* are going to shy away from it. I don't have a team of programmers at my beck and call, and I don't WANT to become a programmer. Any idiot can make a simple task seem like rocket science - but it takes a true genius to make rocket science into a simple task"

Ah, but I digress.....

JoeW

Wegg
01-31-2003, 04:40 PM
I agree with you 110% JoeW. Somewhere along the way, Hash Inc. stumbled acros a workflow and interface that strikes a cord with artists. When I'm using AM. . . it feels like there is about 90% creativity and only about 10% "dealing with the tools". Its the closest thing to pencil to paper I know of. I LOVE AM. I just wish it didn't suck. :-(

jayrtfm
01-31-2003, 04:46 PM
Joew said "....until your software is *intuitive* ..."

One of my favorite quotes is "The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned."

Natess44
01-31-2003, 04:52 PM
The only thing I don't like about the interface is that you have to drag and drop everything withing the same window(PWS). If you could split up the PWS it'd be much easier to use. For example you could drag the materials directly over to a model window without having to scroll down untill you get to your model or group. Other than that A:M's interface is great. For me.

Wegg
01-31-2003, 04:55 PM
Try dragging things directly onto the model/group you have selected in the model/choreography window.

I loved being able to do that.

Walk cycles with stride length and and "ease" channel. Bloody hell. . . doing anything like that in ANY other program is a boat trip down insanity lane.

3DArtZ
01-31-2003, 05:08 PM
Is both funny and true!
What is also true, but not as funny is that hash had the hit "it" with the layout it has in 8.5p++. Why in the
world would they have changed that? I mean, yeah people are gonna learn to live with the new interface,
but I don't care. You can't convince me that the new interface is as easy or as compartamentalized as 8.5
What a shame.
Mike Fitz

Wegg
01-31-2003, 05:23 PM
Programmer - "I have this great idea on how we can improve the renderer, smooth out the creases and at the same time make the software more stable."

Martin - "Thats my job. . . what else could you do?"

Programmer - "Well. . . nothing really. The software is perfect. It is lightyears ahead of our competition at any price for ease of use and flexability."

Martin - "Well. . why do I need you?"

<pause>

Programmer - "I have a fantastic idea. . . we could re-write the whole thing from the ground up. . . changing everything."

Martin - "Excellent idea.. . Oh and throw in some of those cute little Microsoft helper characters. . . I love those little guys. . . "

3DArtZ
01-31-2003, 05:35 PM
Hmmm, wasn't there some sort of Dr.Evil group laugh that happend right after that meeting?
I'm kidding ofcourse.

Mike Fitz

Natess44
01-31-2003, 05:54 PM
The v10 interface is more like the v8.5 interface and I think in some ways it is better.

JoeW
01-31-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by jayrtfm
Joew said "....until your software is *intuitive* ..."

One of my favorite quotes is "The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned."

LOL - that's so true.... but some nipples are a bit easier to manage... :)

JoeW

jdates
02-06-2003, 05:55 AM
So what about the 8.5 interface has people so ga-ga?
V10 isn't that much different.

What are the main concerns with the usability of v10?

I spent the day in it, and was rather surprised how straight-forward it was. I still think some user-defined-controls are needed, but that's bound to be added.

Everyone is saying how awesome v8.5 was and how bad v10's interface is... WHY?

a few black arrows throws everyone off?

jdates

JoeW
02-06-2003, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by jdates
So what about the 8.5 interface has people so ga-ga?
V10 isn't that much different.

What are the main concerns with the usability of v10?

I spent the day in it, and was rather surprised how straight-forward it was. I still think some user-defined-controls are needed, but that's bound to be added.

Everyone is saying how awesome v8.5 was and how bad v10's interface is... WHY?

a few black arrows throws everyone off?

jdates

It's not that - it's that everything is hidden now, and you have to scroll through endless crap to get to what you want. The properties window with tabs was a MUCH faster interface. I think when I modeled the motorcycle, I lost probably 10% of my time trying to click, click, click, scroooooollll to what I needed - when the old 8.5 interface it was just a click or two away. PLUS they said they were going to fix all the PWS icon crap that happens (icon swapping, etc) - it's just as bad as it used to be.

V10's interface is NOT an improvement (IMHO). The modeling is MUCH faster, and the openGL implementation is much better, but it's actually a lot more clumsy than 8.5. THEN stack on the fact that I can't find anything anymore (and neither can a lot of other people, I'm gathering). When the guys I work with - guys who use AM day-in and day-out say that there are a few improvements, but overall it was a (couple) steps back, that's pretty damning.

On the surface, AM10 isn't that much different, but when you really start pushing it, it starts getting in your way more and more. They've made a lot of *defaults* that are a pain in the ass - like the new Choreography. I don't need it all set up, I just want a light and a camera. Now, I have to go in and strip everything out of it every time I create a new one. Constraints default to *ON* and it's a lot more confusing to figure out what's turned on and what isn't in an action - now, if you save out an action on a constrained model, then reopen the model with that action, your constraints will double up - nice. You *used* to be able to see it pretty readily, now you have to dig for 10 minutes to see what the hell is going on. I *liked* being able to drag and drop an action or a pose into an action window - now, it's endless arrows and + signs - stupid. Even Martin was pissed when he saw the "new" interface - but it was too far gone for him to do anything about it.

Once again, an interface designed by a programmer - with NO feedback from the people who *use* the program - is more than likely going to be a bad thing. When the guys at Hash used to do their own internal projects, the app was a lot more user friendly - now they just code it and kick it out the door.

Sorry for the tirade.... :)

JoeW

Cydonian
02-06-2003, 06:53 AM
I think most of the comparisons have been between 8.5 and 9, where the interface completely took a left turn at Albuquerque. The v10 interface is kind of a cross between the two.

Kalimol
02-06-2003, 07:12 AM
I don't have V10...can you drag and drop attributes and combiners under other combiners yet?

They've made a lot of *defaults* that are a pain in the ass - like the new Choreography.

If it's anything like V9, you can save over the default choreography with a blank one. It's in your AM directory.

I never knew about the shift + camera motion thing. That sounds extremely useful, and it'd be great if it would work as well as it sounds. An object-as-origin-point setting to spin the camera about would also be useful for still work, if not for keyframing.

There needs to be a "little-known useful features" website out there for AM devoted entirely to obscure little triangles and right-click zones. Until a few days ago I had never seen this odd little decal alignment window thing....

And this is more of a wish-list thing than interface...but it would be great to have a more traditional texture map system. Have AM export a map of the procedurals already applied to a model and apply it automatically as a decal at a set resolution. Then the user paints it up in Photoshop.

Because of the way the weather maps and object exports work, it has to be possible--most of it's already present in the weather maps, but the file output is scrambled and impossible to use this way. Decalling up a model is just messy when done in bits and pieces the way it has to be in AM, and it'd be nice to be able to just load up an image editor and paint on the all details in one place.

daft
02-07-2003, 11:43 AM
I would like to see a material editor that works!:)

Like itīs now, it only works in one way direction. It would be much better if you could drag and drop things in the Material tree. Best of all would be some kind of Hypershade linking like in Maya.


:bounce:

jdates
02-08-2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by daft
I would like to see a material editor that works!:)

Like itīs now, it only works in one way direction. It would be much better if you could drag and drop things in the Material tree. Best of all would be some kind of Hypershade linking like in Maya.


:bounce:


I agree. A node based system would be great. THe Material Tree is fine and all.. but I'd love another way to view my data.

Pixels3D has a great shader GUI... Instead of a tree, you get a base material. Each attribute has a pulldown, and you get a list of options. Combiners, textures, gradients, other shaders...etc. Within no-time you can build a material that is kickin!

I've never had the patience for the Material Tree. It's just clumbsy.

jdates:drool:

JoeW
02-08-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Kalimol
I don't have V10...can you drag and drop attributes and combiners under other combiners yet?



If it's anything like V9, you can save over the default choreography with a blank one. It's in your AM directory.

Because of the way the weather maps and object exports work, it has to be possible--most of it's already present in the weather maps, but the file output is scrambled and impossible to use this way. Decalling up a model is just messy when done in bits and pieces the way it has to be in AM, and it'd be nice to be able to just load up an image editor and paint on the all details in one place.

No, unfortunately, you can't drag, drop, copy, paste in the Materials - it's basically the exact same interface it's always been - with the addition of having to click a lot more to get things done. Another thing I thought they were going to add was the ability to click on a group an select your material from a pulldown - no dice on that one, either....

That's good to know about the Choreography. Thanks. I need to poke around more before I get pissed off, I guess.

One thing we've been doing a lot of lately is painting all of our textures into one map - ala QuakeIII or Unreal textures. It ends up making things easier in the long run as you only have to keep track of ONE map, although it can end up fairly large. The good thing is that AM only has to load it once - and it also keeps the resolutions pretty much the same.

Another kind of cool thing is to right-click on a stamp and choose "Edit". If you keep your edit window open, as well as your model window (with decals displayed) you can tweak the points and watch the map "move" on the surface. This is pretty cool - Kudos to Hash for this one.....

JoeW

Natess44
02-09-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by JoeW
No, unfortunately, you can't drag, drop, copy, paste in the Materials - it's basically the exact same interface it's always been - with the addition of having to click a lot more to get things done. Another thing I thought they were going to add was the ability to click on a group an select your material from a pulldown - no dice on that one, either....

That's good to know about the Choreography. Thanks. I need to poke around more before I get pissed off, I guess.

One thing we've been doing a lot of lately is painting all of our textures into one map - ala QuakeIII or Unreal textures. It ends up making things easier in the long run as you only have to keep track of ONE map, although it can end up fairly large. The good thing is that AM only has to load it once - and it also keeps the resolutions pretty much the same.

Another kind of cool thing is to right-click on a stamp and choose "Edit". If you keep your edit window open, as well as your model window (with decals displayed) you can tweak the points and watch the map "move" on the surface. This is pretty cool - Kudos to Hash for this one.....

JoeW
Zpider made a plugin for the copy and paste of materials and it's cheap something like 10 bucks for 3 plugins.

no0ne
02-09-2003, 08:46 AM
:bounce: in fact it's just 6$ & got it last week

couldn't test it out that much but from the first glance
it looks fantastic :buttrock:

to be able to copy & paste attributes is soo cooool :thumbsup:

copy & paste plugin page (http://www.kci-group.com/z/gradientzcp.htm)

thx alot @ zpider :wavey:

in this texture pack there is also the gradientz-texture
& the gradientz-shader but the copy paste plug alone
makes it worth the 6$ :beer:

HellBorn
02-11-2003, 10:08 PM
Zpider made a plugin for the copy and paste of materials and it's cheap something like 10 bucks for 3 plugins.

Then Hash should buy it from him and implement it in the code.
This is an interface operation that should had been there from the start.

John Keates
02-12-2003, 06:49 PM
Martin should sell a little of his estate and hire zpider to spruce AM up full time. He has a good attitude and hash owes him.

Goon
02-12-2003, 07:04 PM
visual controls for the spherical limits constraint.

John Keates
02-12-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Goon
visual controls for the spherical limits constraint.

Yes I aggree. I have requested this also.

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