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lukx
08-28-2006, 05:35 AM
I don't now what ram to get for my new Conroe rig. I'm getting ASUS P5W DH mobo and in it's specs it's working with 800, 667, 533 ram. But As I know if I won't be OC to have 1:1 ram with FSB speed, I should get 533 ram. Is it worth to get 1066 ram if I'm not going to OC. I read that underclocked 1066 will have tighter timings than 533. But anyway is the difference in timings worth extra money?

GregHess
08-28-2006, 11:39 AM
PC5300. That way if you decide you want a minor overclock (lets say 25%) you'll be ok.

I went with a 2x1GB pair of mushkin PC5300 at 3-3-3-10 for about 180 or so USD. I think they're actually on sale now with a mail-in rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146093

Ignore the comments. Everyone is running the ram at the wrong setting. If you set the divider to 667 DDR, it actually runs the ram at nearly 800 megahertz. I made this same mistake myself. Only found out due to a smarter IT buddy pointing out that the settings in the bios are effected directly by all the multiplication of the different FSB's and such. It gets REALLY confusing. The rule is, divide the FSB by 2, and thats the ram speed. So if you're at 1066, set the ram to 533. If you set the ram to 667 under the same conditions, the chipset changes the dividers on you.

I realize this is all incredibly confusing, so I'm actually working on writing a conroe setup article. Should be done in a week or so.

Btw a 25% overclock, at 1066, ends you up around...

1333 FSB, and (PC5300 set at 533) 708 megahertz ram at 3-3-3-10.

It's very easy to make a massive mistake with these chipsets, and then go online and flame the universe. There is alot of changes occuring behind the scenes that isn't readily apparent when you adjust settings.

Also, avoid changing the actual FSB as long as possible. ie, don't set the FSB to 1333. There is a MASSIVE difference in performance between a 1060 + 25% oc = 1333FSB, and merely setting your FSB to 1333.

lukx
08-28-2006, 11:58 AM
yes it's totaly confusing:) I'm totaly lost right now.

GregHess
08-28-2006, 12:05 PM
Techheads, please look away, as this explanation will probably piss you off because its not 100% accurate, and is more for explaining the dividers then anything else.

(repost from cgarchitect.com)

ou have to be very careful when comparing different numbers in a computer to one another. The amount of dividing and multiplying going on can give you a splitting headache.

Case in point, lets use your example.

1333 FSB or 1066 FSB

The memory should be the same right? Well this is where it all gets really confusing. The FSB is actually quad pumped on the intel boards.

The actual FSB prior to being multiplied is...
333 and 266

Those numbers look familar to anyone?

The memory gets even more confusing...especially given the nomenclature they've decided to use to befuddle the average consumer.

First there was ram. It had a nice little rating like PC133. The 133 was the megahertz...oooh so nice and easy.

Then you got DDR...double data rate. So you double the number...and va la, now the 133 is 266. Around this time manufacturers start adding odd names to the ram, like PC2700, and PC3200, just to confuse the living #$()&@$ outta everyone...its all marketing bs meant to give you an idea of stellar performance.

Well now we have DDR2...that means you double it again. 266x2 =533.

But wait, we aren't done yet.
Thats right...you run the DDR2 in a dual channel system. 533x2=1066

(Note, dual channel is not actually doubling the megahertz, this multiplier is just here to help you understand the actual bandwidth and efficency comparisons. ie the bandwidth is increased, but not exactly by a factor of 2...but to go into the exact numbers that change, most people would die.)

Ta da! Make sense now? If it does, you should probably be a computer consultant. Cause I'm still confunded as hell.

Basically 667 for 1333, and 533 for 1066. Easiest way to figure stuff out is just to divide the intel fsb by 2 and compare to the ram, or multiply the ram speed by 2, and compare to the fsb.

Any faster ram is primarily for overclocking purposes right now. If you were building a conroe system, lets say an E6600 (2.4 ghz core duo2) which runs at 1066 FSB, and purchased some PC5300 667 megahertz DDR2 (remember multiply by 2 for 1333), you could then (baring any other problems) run the FSB at 24-25% higher frequency, netting you about 3.0 ghz...right at the ram's actual sweet spot.

However if you just bought the faster ram, and didn't fiddle with either the timings or the FSB, you wouldn't gain any actual performance from the more expensive dimms. __________________

lukx
08-28-2006, 12:11 PM
ah much better. so If I got 800 ram and just left BIOS settings default I'm not going to gain any speed over 533 ram? When using 800 and changing settings in BIOS to really using 800 mem I'm automaticly overclocing my system, right?

GregHess
08-28-2006, 12:23 PM
Correct. Unless you adjust the ram settings to make use of the higher speed memory, it'll be useless.

Kinda of like putting 100 octane into your car, and not having the ecu/pcm (car computer) capable of making use of it. (I like using gas examples as ram, cause it works well).

As for the 800 setting automatically oc'ing the computer, no idea. I haven't read that far into all the dividers yet. I'd assume that no, it wouldn't, it would just run a different divider set for the ram. But the setting would most likely be 667 (667x2 =1333), as that seems to put the ram around 800 megahertz.

lukx
08-28-2006, 12:28 PM
I've never trusted OC'ing so I will get 4GB of Corsair 533 CL4 and be more then happy,:) Also this way I will save quite a lot of money for new bigger LCD :).

GregHess
08-28-2006, 01:10 PM
Ya, you'll also save money going with 4-4-4-12 timings over 3-3-3-10. 4-4-4 is technically 2-2-2 in the old DDR/SDRAM lingo.

tecton3d
08-28-2006, 01:24 PM
are there any 2gb sticks (2x2gb pairs) of the 3-3-3-10 Mushkin ram you used out there?

I can't seem to find any : (

GregHess
08-28-2006, 01:34 PM
No doesn't appear so :(.

tecton3d
08-28-2006, 01:51 PM
No doesn't appear so :(.

that's kinda wierd! the Badaxe (and most other Conroe boards) can handle up to 8gb but there's no way to get that much of the high-test RAM, ... so are we just hoping that someone, in the near future, makes some 2gb sticks of DDR2 to fill up these Conroe boards?

I'm not going to spend this much on RAM (ATM :eek:) but would this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820134083)work? . . . accepting the fact that it could limit an OC?!

lukx
08-28-2006, 02:14 PM
it's good that you come up with this 2x 2gb kit thing. I was also thinking about getting those: http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=3&catid=2&prodgroupid=36&id=506&type=1

but I also read that it's overkill to have 8GB of ram.

tecton3d
08-28-2006, 02:21 PM
but I also read that it's overkill to have 8GB of ram.

not if you have a full 64bit OS and 64bit softwares to take advantage of all that ram ~ right?

lukx
08-28-2006, 02:30 PM
still overkill in my opinion. 4GB is all you need and it will be enough for a long time.

tecton3d
08-28-2006, 02:46 PM
perhaps it is ~ to each their own : )

GregHess
08-28-2006, 02:49 PM
still overkill in my opinion. 4GB is all you need and it will be enough for a long time.

"Nobody will ever need more than 640k RAM!"


-- Bill Gates, 1981

tfortier
08-29-2006, 11:38 PM
Hey, im shopping for RAM too right now... I find it to be quite expensive!

I will probably take the 6600 and OC to 3.0ghz... just enough for level the extreme edition...
It will be a workstation mainly using After Effects 80% of te time and lightwave 20%.

is kingston value ram worth anything? and what speed should I get ? (it hard to follow all your technical stuff... sorry!)

AE is a RAM intensive application... then I was thinking the faster the best!

tks

EDIT: after some shopping, I came to 2 options;

- building a new conroe machine, all new part for 1800$ canadien dollar, or

- Build a AMD x2 4600+, keeping my 2gb ddr400 for 1100$ ... its 700$ in my pocket! or

- Build an AM2 X2 5000+ with new part for 1330$...


after scratching my head and recount, I found there was 3 options finally!

The 6600+ OC will give me a lot more power... is it worth 800$? I am wondering...

GregHess
08-30-2006, 02:30 AM
Getting an E6600 to 3.01 is a cake walk. On the two chips I've dealt with so far, it was a joke in terms of difficulty. I actually had more trouble with the E6700 running at 3333. The heatspreader ontop of the core is slightly concave on the E6700...the hsf isn't matting 100% flush. Go intel quality.

tecton3d
08-30-2006, 03:11 AM
Getting an E6600 to 3.01 is a cake walk. On the two chips I've dealt with so far, it was a joke in terms of difficulty. I actually had more trouble with the E6700 running at 3333. The heatspreader ontop of the core is slightly concave on the E6700...the hsf isn't matting 100% flush. Go intel quality.

geesh ~ that's rubbish for a $600 proc... at least that's your work machine : ) Are you brave enough to lap the proc core to flatten it out:eek:?

could you post some benchies (somewhere) with that 6700 @ 3333!

GregHess
08-30-2006, 12:08 PM
tecton,

Yes, because my E6600 is at 3333 now :). I still only have max 5.1 though, so I can't run the vray benchmark. I can do pretty much anything else you'd like though.

In my own tests...my Dual 2.8 Xeon ran one of my scenes in about 12 minutes 50 seconds or so, and the E6700 at 3333 did it in about 5 minutes. It was actually pretty hilarous, cause I started the xeon rendering, left for a bit, came back in and started the conroe, and the conroe caught up, passed, and finished about 3 minutes before the xeon did.

lukx
08-30-2006, 12:31 PM
uh! So E6700 is f#$% up? Damn And I wanted to get it.

GregHess
08-30-2006, 12:43 PM
Supposedly according to one of my good friends (who makes me look like an IT noob), I'm the first case he's seen of a concave 6700. It seems the E6600's are far more fickle then the E6700's in terms of their maximum obtainable speeds and quality levels.

To give you an idea of the difference between the E6700 and E6600 (at the same speeds) temp wise at 3333...

The E6600 was at 66C with two primes going (975xbx chipset overreports temps by nearly 10C), the E6700 was 76C. Normal rendering is around 55C on the E6600. (Rendering utilizes less core usage then prime95 surprisingly). The E6600 also has to run at 1.5 to hold 3333, while the E6700 was at 1.4 with those temps.

I'm not experienced enough with lapping to perform it, so thats out of the question. Instead I'm going to use a different cooler, with a different mounting system, to try and get around this particular E6700's issues.

Taking photos for the article right now while I build.

http://www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/article1.jpg

tecton3d
08-30-2006, 02:25 PM
thanks for sharing:thumbsup:

sucks that I just built 4 of those dual xeon (core2 wasn't yet out) rigs that got owned by your conroe! I guess I could part-out the mobos, procs, and ram and build 2 conroe systems, which would be much faster to boot and I'd be getting much better mileage outta those maxwell and Final Render lics! hhhhmmmmmmm -- me thinks to meself -- what do I have planned this weekend?

... sounds like you'll have to be generous with the AS5 no matter what cooler you run! Have you thought about returning the 6700 due to the concave thing? Perhaps try the new HSF and see where that gets you...? Still, a 10deg. temp diff between the 6600 and 6700 is a little wacky!

looking forward to your updates:beer:

edit: I recognize that case... it's a good case for the cost ~ the Chenming Server Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811125435), I used the 120mm exhaust fan for my rendernode builds... plenty of room and lots of airflow (at least with the 114cfm Panaflo's)!

GregHess
08-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Running memtest86 cycles right now. We'll see how it does on this mboard/ram/psu.

tecton3d
08-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Running memtest86 cycles right now. We'll see how it does on this mboard/ram/psu.

how about a Cinebench @ 3333?

tecton3d
08-30-2006, 02:43 PM
Running memtest86 cycles right now. We'll see how it does on this mboard/ram/psu.

are the specs of this system exactly the same as your 6600? ... all but the HSF ~ ?

this is the Patriot 2gb RAM (http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=3&catid=2&prodgroupid=36&id=506&type=1) sticks that Lukx posted earlier ~ can you give us a quick yes or no as to it working in the D975XBX?

GregHess
08-30-2006, 03:13 PM
The cpu, hsf, video card, and case are different.

HSF is a thermaltake big typhoon (so freaking pita to install)
CPU is a E6700 + 25% (3333 @ 1.45)
MCH at 1.65, FSB @ 1.27, MEM @ 2.1, PCI-E @ 105

Video card was the cheapest dual dvi-i 7xxx I could find, which was a 7300 GT XFX. (They don't any 3d stuff here, so I just try to have a current gen cheapo card with dvi-i).

Case is a chemming full tower.

http://www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/crazy.jpg

On the test bench right now (motherboard box) lol. Its really really really rediculously huge.

GregHess
08-30-2006, 08:53 PM
Cinebench 9.5 score was 1037. Might improve a bit once tweaked. Running two prime95's for 36 hours to check for stability.

tecton3d
08-30-2006, 09:20 PM
Cinebench 9.5 score was 1037. Might improve a bit once tweaked. Running two prime95's for 36 hours to check for stability.

impressive:buttrock:

synkipate
08-30-2006, 09:39 PM
I realize this is all incredibly confusing, so I'm actually working on writing a conroe setup article. Should be done in a week or so.

Sorry to slightly stray from topic, but its great to hear you are writing a conroe guide, as I am looking to get a new system in the next couple of weeks

I'm looking at the E6600, as there is a marjoy price hike for the E6700, and I can't see much of a performance boost for 150 more


<slightly-confused-non-expert-type>

GregHess
08-30-2006, 10:22 PM
I'd go with the E6600 myself. It's a better bang for the buck cpu, and is pretty fast even at stock speeds.

Just got home to see my dual prime95's is still going strong after 12 hours. Going to see if I can make it to 24 without issues (3333 on a E6600).

Btw, that stock cooler on that 7300GT is utter crap. GPU temp is at 73C!!! My 7900GT KO EVGA at home with a Zalman CU900 is at 42C.

tuna
08-31-2006, 05:14 AM
Just popping in to vouch for the quality (http://www.puppetstring.com/c2d/stable.jpg) of the E6600. :p

lukx
08-31-2006, 05:33 AM
I have another question. I never was to OC but from what I see maybe it's time to change my mind :). Anyway my question is. Do you think that E6700 because it has higher clock, he's lifespan when OC'ing might be longer that OC'ed E6600?

GregHess
08-31-2006, 01:14 PM
The reason I never really recommend oc'ing is because of the variability involved. Take a look at the example of two chip's I'm working with right now.

The E6700 should be running much cooler then the E6600. It's at a lower voltage, with a less drastic clock bump. (25%) Yet its peaking into the 75-80C range (subtract 10 for the board), which is too hot for my tastes. This goes back to the fact that the heatspreader surface on the core is ever so slightly concave, so the outer section contacts the hsf properly, and the inner section requires a large goop of paste just to reach the hsf.

On the other hand, the E6600 chip is running at a 39% bump, (with more voltage, a less powerful hsf, and higher room ambients) runs around 68C after 13 hours of dual prime95 testing (one per core, no errors), and in the 55's while rendering or playing games. (remember to subtract 10 or so for the chipset).

These are the type of variables you can't predict, and make purchasing a processor based on it's...maximum potential, hazardous at best.

The big problem with the above situation is that neither intel nor newegg would take the processor back (E6700), because it runs fine at default speeds. The concave nature only asserts itself at higher voltages/clock speeds. Only solution would be to lap the heatspreader surface...and these processors are 599 USD, so most people aren't willing to take that type of risk. If it was 50 bucks? Sure, I'd give it a shot. (Besides the E6700 isn't mine, its the depts)

lukx
08-31-2006, 01:29 PM
Greg, and what is the difference in temps between E6600 and E6700 when running stock speed? I'm still not sure which one to get :) E6600 or E6700 (you saw test I posted on chaos :) E6700 at stock is 25sec faster than E6600 maybe it's worth those 300$ more. I think I will flip the coin to make up my mind :).

GregHess
08-31-2006, 02:52 PM
They were both in the 40C range in the bios. I never prime tested them stock.

tuna
08-31-2006, 03:32 PM
My E6600 was around 40C as well with the stock HSF/thermal pad (which is a piece of shit). Watercooling (w/ lapped waterblock) put it down to about 20C-30C. After OCing to 3.55ghz it's around 40C again idle and 55C or so under full (stressprime ORTHOS) usage. Be sure to cool your RAM well too, my G.Skill stuff got seriously hot to the touch when FSB was at 400, which I think accounted a bit for the instability. Reducing the FSB to 394 and tightening CAS timings a bit actually made the system completely stable and improved benchmarks.

More people should invest in watercooling if they're planning on overclocking. It's not that expensive, completely silent and does a hell of a better job than a 4000rpm fan on a 200mm heatsink which looks and sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Greg: I think you should give lapping your cpu a go. Try it out first on the heatsink to build your confidence (plus that'll need to be done anyway). It shouldn't take more than 1-2 hours, and it's quite hard to mess up.

lukx: The money you save from getting an E6600 instead of an E6700 could be better spent on some good CAS3/faster RAM which will improve benchmarks and overclocking headroom more than a +1x multiplier ever will.

lukx
08-31-2006, 04:40 PM
Thomas and what watercooling would you recommend?

tuna
08-31-2006, 05:00 PM
Thomas and what watercooling would you recommend?
You can pick and mix your own parts (you need a pump, radiator, cpu waterblock, reservoir, tubing, distilled water and some anti-algae stuff you mix in). But there are kits you can buy all in one. I bought the Swiftech Apex Ultra kit ( http://www.swiftnets.com/products/H20-220-APEX.asp ). It's worked quite well, but I would rather pick my own components next time.

tecton3d
08-31-2006, 05:09 PM
Thomas and what watercooling would you recommend?

make sure you get/have a case that has the capability to mount whatever radiator you go with. From what I've seen the TJO7 (though expensive) is about the best for mounting big radiators in the lower chamber.

lukx
08-31-2006, 05:15 PM
I got Lian Li PC-61 tower.

tuna
08-31-2006, 05:20 PM
make sure you get/have a case that has the capability to mount whatever radiator you go with. From what I've seen the TJO7 (though expensive) is about the best for mounting big radiators in the lower chamber.

Thats the exact case I got >>img<< (http://www.puppetstring.com/c2d/DSC01445.JPG). Although the Swiftech kit I got came with a mount that you can use to mount the radiator outside the case, so long as it has a 120mm exaust fan hole at the back.

lukx
08-31-2006, 05:45 PM
hmm I got this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.asp?Image=11%2D112%2D040%2D09%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D10%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D11%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D16%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D15%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D13%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D12%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D14%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D17%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D18%2Ejpg%2C11%2D112%2D040%2D19%2Ejpg&CurImage=11%2D112%2D040%2D13%2Ejpg&Description=LIAN+LI+PC%2D65B+Black+Aluminum+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+%2D+Retail

but without glass window

GregHess
08-31-2006, 08:12 PM
tuna,

If the E6700 fails to run stabily at 3333, I will. One thing to keep in mind with water cooled systems, is that they do require periodic maintance...more so to ensure that everything is still tight and fitting properly. ie, though it is possible to set it up and let it go, its not recommended to do so without periodically checking everything. Leaks are bad mkay!

lukx
09-04-2006, 10:59 AM
Ok, my final question...Why motherboard manufacturer put in mobo specs:
"4 x 240-pin DIMM sockets support max. 8GB DDR2 800/ 667/ 533 ECC and non-ECC memory
" When using anything above 533 is OCing. Isn't that unsafe for someone who doesn't know what his doing and thinking that he should get the best, and because 800 is the last and fastest on the list this is the right choice? Is getting 800 memory future proof casue maybe in future fsb on new boards might be faster?

GregHess
09-04-2006, 09:32 PM
On alot of these boards, the actual "option" of overclocking is one of the hottest selling points. The more options the board has, and the better it handles higher frequency, the more it sells. Thats why you'll see all sorts of boards with crazy heatpipe designs, cooling fins on random electrical components, etc etc. It sells!

And yes, if you read the fine print, pushing any component past its specified range will result in warranty voidance...though some components (like ram designed to run at 1066 megahertz), are warrantied at that speed, whether the system is spec'd to run it, or you're pushing the system to that level of performance.

There is some level of future proofing to be had with the higher speed rams, but only to a point. If you only replace or upgrade your computer every 2-3 years, its more likely an entirely new type of ram configuration will be available by that point...and you'll be forced to replace it regardless.

Case in point, my dual 2.8 Boxxtech xeon's use DDR1. DDR2 is the new craze.

lots
09-05-2006, 04:15 AM
Getting an E6600 to 3.01 is a cake walk. On the two chips I've dealt with so far, it was a joke in terms of difficulty. I actually had more trouble with the E6700 running at 3333. The heatspreader ontop of the core is slightly concave on the E6700...the hsf isn't matting 100% flush. Go intel quality.
Wow thats surprising from Intel. You know you always hear rumors about bad AMD quality (though usually not true these days), but never from Intel's camp. Lets hope you just recieved a dud of a CPU.

I bet those high temps are related to the poor contact the CPU has with the heatsink.

seraphangel
09-05-2006, 10:46 AM
I have a question, if I were to get 800mhz ram, I would have to pump the FSB up to 1600mhz am I right? has anyone achieved such and OC before so far? is it even doable? if not then there's no point in getting that fast a ram.

lukx
09-05-2006, 11:20 AM
I think that first you will have to change chipset cooling for something more efficient :)

GregHess
09-05-2006, 10:21 PM
Seraph,

When you change the ram settings, it changes the dividers. So your ram isn't necessarily running at 800 megahertz if your fsb is 1600.

seraphangel
09-06-2006, 12:30 AM
Greg,
so even if I'm using 800mhz ram it won't necessarily be running at 800mhz at default?
what do I need to do to make it run at 800mhz?

GregHess
09-06-2006, 11:06 AM
No it won't necessarily be running at 800 megahertz by default. Nor will the more expensive ram, such as those with lower latencies (3-3-3-10 for example) be utilizing those latencies by default.

Both have to be manually adjusted in the bios of the machine, which is motherboard specific. You can usually find information on setting your memory timings in your motherboard manual.

Most boards will default to 400, and 5-5-5-15. They will remain at those settings unless changed.

You can check your actual memory frequency with a simple utility called cpu-z.
http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php

pcwizard is also available from the same site, and has more available info, as well as processor temps. (Download both as .zip files, and neither require installation, just extract to a directory and run)

lukx
09-06-2006, 11:33 AM
Greg do you think that getting memory with EPP when you're not OC'ing is a good idea?

GregHess
09-06-2006, 12:48 PM
I haven't read enough about nvidia's new EPP standard to consider it a valid purchasing decision.

seraphangel
09-06-2006, 01:06 PM
I see, everything has to be manually set, guess I'll be bugging you quite a bit about all these settings when I get my new rig :)
hope you don't mind greg :D

GregHess
09-06-2006, 01:13 PM
Years of working as the IT Administrator has given me almost infinite patience. :)

lots
09-06-2006, 01:24 PM
Hah working IT will either give you patience of take it all away ;)

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