No good smooth operations in Maya for modeling?

[Lomax]

There's always Connect Poly Shape. Everything you do to your low-res mesh translates directly to the smoothed copy, and the script lets you change the resolution. Plus it works faster than subDs!

[mattwood]

As rants go that's very well written and reasonable. Have you tried contacting A|W directly with your complaints? There are several A|W product managers that hang out on the Highend3D mailing list. I'm sure they'd be happy to receive such clear and constructive criticism.

[MDuffy]

Connect Poly Shape does the same thing as the Smooth Poly command. They both take the low res geometry, pipe it through a polySmoothFace node, and then pipe it into the shape node of the high res geometry. I've written my own version of these scripts that allows easier toggling between low and high res so you can actually completely undo the command and be left with just your low res proxy in the end.

I copied and posted this same message to Highend3D yesterday after I had posted it here. We'll see if anyone from Alias notices it there. Otherwise I'll contact our reseller and technical advisor and see if they can get the message through. If all else fails, I may wind up writing my own version of polySmoothFace with the speedups I mentioned. I just have a full plate right now both at work and for my free time, so I don't know when I'd be able to get to it.

Later,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[wrend]

yeah, problem (a rather bloated one, perhaps like a blue body bumping againt the pylons of a jetty).

remind AW about this, again.

non-topological tweaks on sds components (yeah, stupid numbers, just float a single number somewhere that lets you know the level - you cant tweak diff levels simultaneously) is reasonably fast, in the same order of interactivity as nurbs patches of similar resolution, w jumps in interactivity as you step through port smoothing res. still.

do other apps have the smoothing algo riding in the mesh descriptn, as you described?

[MDuffy]

Yeah, Lightwave and MAX have the smoothing algorithms as part of their mesh objects. That makes it easy to track the changes, due to mesh editing, and then only update the smooth patches that require it. Try moving a point on a smoothed object in either Lightwave or on MAX's Editable Poly object and you'll be amazed at the interactivity. I'm amazed that Maya doesn't have something like that, and even more amazed that Maya modelers have been able to work with the current slow system!! :scream:

Later,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[AnimBot]

Wow MDuffy you just described my exact problem. I'm also a Max user who is starting to use Maya alot more. I just assumed it was my ignorance of the program, therefore haven't complained about it to anyone I'm kind of shocked that there isn't a better way to work with both resolutions of the model. Do you guys have any advice on working with polys like this.

[seasterling]

I went off on the same rant when I picked up Maya last year. Previously I'd only worked in LightWave. LightWave has had these capabilities for about 7 or 8 years now, so I was pretty surprised when I picked up Maya. Deformation speed hurts in Maya as well, I assume for the same reasons. I never had the need to use multiple resolutions of a character in LW even on systems radically slower than what is available today. I'm on a Mac and just got Maya's subds in 4.5. Disappointed again and still poly/subd modeling in LightWave.

I was also suprised by Maya's clumsy ability/inability to work with polys and vertices at the component level. No depth culling, no ability to hide a selection of components, invert a selection, etc. LW users know what I am talking about. Please, nobody say Isolate Select. I thought about trying to write a few scripts to address some of these issues, but it just doesn't seem worth it considering I can just jump over to LW's Modeler. Anyway, glad to hear I am not alone.

[NeonGuy]

MDuffy and all of you guys there!

MDuffy explained clearly the problem everybody have!

what i see is the following: A|W should improve the smoothing algorithm and the subd speed, and extend the poly modeling tools as well. instead of this, they are working on maya fluids and stuff, that is (fluids) not an important thing i think. the fellas i talked told me, that they don't use maya fluids at all, they don't need it. they are working on visualization, tv spot projects all the time. there's no true need for this fluid thing i think. ppl can use it in one project of 10. :hmm: A|W should focus on the really important areas of Maya. for example i just can't imagine why don't they integrated in Maya 4.5 the tools like edgering or loopsplit. everybody uses these as scripts right now (MJPolyTools for example). i think at A|W uses them too :)

the other thing is: everywhere i turn, people are using other modeling tools instead of Maya. they are using LW or Wings3D. A|W should recognize this!!!!

so A|W if you read this!!! focus on these areas too, not only the newest technologies!!!! (please)


i don't hate Maya, i LOVE it, it's a fantastic product, but A|W can make more and more better if they improve these things!!

cheers!

[Peter Reynolds]

I have been using Maya since version 1, and it has improved dramatically since then, but I do agree, in comparison to the development of other applications, many of them have caught up and in more than a few areas, zipped past maya.

I'd also have to agree, the current focus from AW should be to address those areas that are core to the majority of 3d work (i.e. not fluids).

And I must confess, when it comes to ripping through a model, I find myself using Wings more and more - its a great little piece of software.

[skello]

Hello Mike!...Are you talking about earlier versions of maya ?.
In maya 4.0, 4.5 you can see the smoothed model while you work on the low res cage...IMO it is a better method than max has.
I agree with you on LW though.. and the ability to edit the smooth proxy is one cool feature..
http://users2.ev1.net/~skello/smooth%20preview.jpg
all i do is assign the smooth object to a seperate layer and toggle its visibility on/off whenever necessary
Overall i think other than the ability to edit smooth proxies in LW Maya's modeling tools can now stand toe to toe with LW.

[wrend]

you can edit the 'smooth proxy' ...the derived poly surface. just flip the allowTopolMods flag on. or use CPS, or your own construct.

whatever, the issue still exists. :(

[skello]

BTW. i was just curious to know the benefits of editing the smooth proxy and having the polygon cage update automatically....
I have realised(in LW) the polygon cage becomes a jumbled spiky mess if you go back to it afterwards.
A cleaner poly cage is always ideal for texturing.

You are taking a wrong approach to modeling if you have to edit
in any level higher than 0 ..and Yes there are a bunch of ways to model efficiently in maya.
Always turning history off when modeling is the key to speed modeling in maya..

If you need some modeling work done just swing some my way :D . I may suck at all the technical stuff but modeling is my thang.:beer:

[MDuffy]

Hi Skello. I'm talking about modeling in Maya 4.5. I haven't used Maya before 4.0, I used MAX up to version 4.2, and I have occasion to use LW 7.5 at work (along with Maya 4.5). Compared to MAX and LW, the Smooth Proxy and Polygon Proxy Mode approaches are much slower than they should be.

The benefit of editing the proxy version while viewing the smoothed version is pretty significant. You want to be able to model such that you can see the final result. After all, you aren't rendering/using the lower poly proxy version, it is only there to help you get the final result which is what you are after.

Your proxy won't become a "jumbled spiky mess" if you build it correctly and use enough geometry. I've always believed that the smoothing algorithm is there to improve and round out the results, not to model the surface for you. You only get a distorted proxy if you don't have enough geometry at the base level.

>>You are taking a wrong approach to modeling if you have
>> to edit in any level higher than 0 ..and Yes there are a
>> bunch of ways to model efficiently in maya.
>> Always turning history off when modeling is the key
>> to speed modeling in maya..

Often when modeling you discover that you need to change the geometry's flow in order to work better across a surface. Or if you need to add on to a model later, you need to change its topology. I find it very limiting that subdivs don't actually allow you to make topology changes directly. Maya has to convert from SubDiv to Poly, you make the topology changes with the Poly tools, then you convert back to SubDiv afterwards and try to apply the level 1+ info back on the SubDiv surface. If you study the connections in your Hypergraph, you'll see that this is exactly what is happening in Polygon Proxy Mode.

And then there's the matter where it would be nice if your original low poly edges were projected onto the smoothed model like in LW. But that's another discussion alltogether :p


Later,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[MDuffy]

Ah, and Lightwave still has some modeling advantages over Maya, such as an easier to use Knife tool, the Layers panel, cut and pasting of geometry (with morph target data intact), rotation and scaling around arbitrary points with a single click/drag, and some other nice tools. Fortunately I can script my way around some of the issues, but not all.

Later,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[faulknermano]

Originally posted by skello
BTW. i was just curious to know the benefits of editing the smooth proxy and having the polygon cage update automatically....
I have realised(in LW) the polygon cage becomes a jumbled spiky mess if you go back to it afterwards.
A cleaner poly cage is always ideal for texturing.

You are taking a wrong approach to modeling if you have to edit
in any level higher than 0 ..and Yes there are a bunch of ways to model efficiently in maya.
Always turning history off when modeling is the key to speed modeling in maya..

If you need some modeling work done just swing some my way :D . I may suck at all the technical stuff but modeling is my thang.:beer:

[faulknermano]

ahem.. what i means to say was:

in LW, you could model your geometry without ever going back to the cage object. that's what so cool about the current interface between the smoothed object and the 'caged' object (in lw, those are one and the same thing).

one cool thing about 7.5 is the ability to select the patch intersections rather than the control points. this makes it even easier to work in the smoothed mode (subpatch) because you dont need the make the control points visible anymore. just select the part in the mesh you'd like to move or rotate and there you are! very stress-free! :airguitar

[faulknermano]

oh, and btw, this is not to put down maya or anything. i agree with mcduffy's comments. i'd like model more and more in maya, but it just slows me down much. i use maya as primarily for nurbs rather than poly.

[skello]

Your proxy won't become a "jumbled spiky mess" if you build it correctly and use enough geometry. I've always believed that the smoothing algorithm is there to improve and round out the results, not to model the surface for you. You only get a distorted proxy if you don't have enough geometry at the base level.

exactly....and if you have enough geometry in the poly proxy you wont have to mess with editing level 1 and 2 vertices on the heavy sub-d surface to refine the look of you model like you want to.

Thats why i did not get the point of the following statements

The reason I say that SubDivs are junk is that they aren't a fully editable modeling representation in their own right. You can't change the topology of a SubDiv surface. You can edit the position of the refined vertices. But you can't change the base topology at all. In order to make any changes you have to go to Polygon Proxy Mode where you are editing a polygon object, not the SubDiv object.

well like you said..the smoothing aglorithm is there only to smoothen the look of the model therefore editing the polygon object is exactly what a modeler has to do.

What i do in maya is apply all operations such as modeling,texturing,blendshapes/surfacedeformers, skinning/weight painting and animations to my poly proxy(while keeping the smoothed or subdee version in a hidden layer just for previewing the effects of the various ops.and for final rendering).
One can even delete the subdee or smooth version and recreate it at any time with everything intact.. the key being that all operations and edits were done on the poly proxy.


'cut faces' tool in maya works the same as the knife tool if not better....i however find the split polygon tool better at cutting operations :xtreme: (you are not limited to cutting in straight lines) you can strategically cut out any desired network of edges on any part of the model you are working on.
Maya has layers too and you can rotate and scale just as easily around any point by moving the pivot point anywhere you want..and you know that.

btw. Was XSI used in creating parts of Jimmy neutron? there are clips of jimmy neutron in the xsi reel.
XSI is cool ..It has modeling tools really similar to LW..and emulates LW's editable proxy feel perfectly.(the poly object and smooth object are the same object)

[skello]

faulknermano
"in LW, you could model your geometry without ever going back to the cage object".....uuum!! i bet you will have a messy poly cage and some reeealy stretched textures then.

the ability to select the patch intersections rather than the control points. this makes it even easier to work in the smoothed mode

:buttrock: hell yeah ability to select vertices at their respective patch intersection is one of the sweetest things in LW.

don't get me wrong...i'd rather model in LW anyday but saying maya's modeler is slow or inefficient is totally untrue.
Furthermore..click one button and booyah!! a nurbs patch model....now thats one cool feature!!

[faulknermano]

Originally posted by skello
uuum!! i bet you will have a messy poly cage and some reeealy stretched textures then.

actually a messy poly cage is not relevant in terms of modelling. as long as i can understand the final smoothed geometry i'm set. and when you're using projection mapping there is no stretching. and in lw, you're texturing the final smoothed object, not the polycage . UV mapping in lw will produce distortions.. but this has to do more with the way SDS is distorting it. recently, there was a TERRIFIC workaround posted in the newtek forums by jack daniels on how exactly to do this.


"don't get me wrong...i'd rather model in LW anyday but saying maya's modeler is slow or inefficient is totally untrue."

i dont believe in ANY modeler being slow or fast, as long as it is consensus; that is applies to the greater majority of users who use the programs. i know of people who prefer maya's modelling tools to lw. let's just say that it is I who is slow and inefficient when i use maya for poly modelling.:p

[playmesumch00ns]

Personally I work by sculpting a low-poly model, and then smoothing when I want to take a look at how I'm going. I find working with a smooth-preview version uninituitive. -- $0.02

I think to be fair you have to realise that polygons were never A|W's thing. Right from version 1 Maya was a NURBS modeller, pure and simple. There was a strong polygon toolset there for those bits you simply couldn't do with NURBS, but NURBS were faster to work with and faster to render. Wavefront developed engineering software before the merger and as such NURBS were always going to be at the core of Maya. MAX was always a polygonal modeller -- MAX's NURBS were laughable when they were introduced.

It's got to the situation now that you can work with a 1,000,000 poly model in the viewport without much slowdown, and now people are looking more and more into SubDivs as a solution to those organic modelling questions, again A|W is at the forefront of this new technology.

I really can live with the slight niggles modelling in Maya (and for me they're very few) as when I start animating everything is a dream to setup. expressions, MEL, SDKs etc etc etc. The feeling I get with Maya is that nothing is bolted-on, it all works so well together and that lets me work quickly and without interruption (except for hitting F1 to get at the MEL command reference).

Animation, UI and integration is what A|W have concentrated on with Maya and I believe it shows.

Rendering is also superb thanks to MTOR. I just don't know what I'm going to do when I leave university and don't have RAT any more! boohoo!

Recently A|W have turned their attention to poly modelling, especially in trying to capture some of the games market from MAX, with good results. The points raised here obviously affect many people, and I suggest that everyone get onto their A|W sales reps and customer support and let them know! 4.0 and 4.5 featured some enhancements to the poly modelling toolset, and if enough people get on to A|W I think it would be surprising if they didn't listen and incorporate these features into 5.0.

On the specific question of the polySmooth node, it's not really that big a deal to incorporate that functionality into it. As you suggest, Maya could cache the model between washes of the graph and only apply the necessary changes to the smoothed mesh (although it could gobble memory keeping two copies of the mesh in memory). If one knew the algorithm for smoothing it would be quite simple to write a new polySMooth node for this purpose. Oh for open-source Maya!

[faulknermano]

Originally posted by skello

'cut faces' tool in maya works the same as the knife tool if not better....i however find the split polygon tool better at cutting operations :xtreme: (you are not limited to cutting in straight lines) you can strategically cut out any desired network of edges on any part of the model you are working on.



lw's version of this is the "Edges" series of plugins by DStorm. it's a weird name, because it cuts polys, though it does so edge to edge. i guess they werent sure how to call it. :D

[MasonDoran]

i thought i would post this workflow i use in Maya for people that dont understand how Maya works differently then LW. I learned on Maya...and was asked to change to LW and i quickly learned that I would have to forget all of the techniques i used and re learn everything in LW. That was a bit to much for me....so i understand peoples frustrations if they think in LW but are trying to adjust to the Maya workflow...in reality you cant, which is why all this is so frustrating and app wars get so ridiculous. LW approaches things very linear...and straightforward which is what is great about it. Its easy to use and there is very little confusion. All of the modelling tools have space for hotkeys which is also great for speed...but its a bitch trying to use all of those tools in the perspective viewport....and frankly...the whole drop tool, drop selection, make selection, select tool clicking gets redundant. There is also no history...so tweaking things at a later date is impossible....which is essential for modelling in maya -especially with NURBS.

It is a split screen and i use Isolate selection(as a hotkey) to quickly seperate the proxy view from the smoothed view.....on the left is the proxy mesh...and on the right is the smoothed version. Everything updates in realtime, including the views. What some people may not realize is the smooth node has the ability to be customized....in my model i liked the sharp angels in the face so i adjusted the smooth node to keep those sharp angles. All of the modelling is done in the left view port(its really clumsy to model in perspective viewport in LW)....I use Mj polytools for edge looping(which compares to LWs Knife tool) and a lot of point snapping (which is lousy in LW). I also use the split poly tool quite a lot...which is also a bit hairy in LW. The smoothed version which is comparable to LWs SubDs is in the right vewport...with a mirrored instance.

[MasonDoran]

the split screen....

[MasonDoran]

and it updates in realtime....please note...i am modelling without channel box or tool bar or all of the icon garbage....just a hotkey and hotbox....VERY clean and easy way to work

[sasquatch]

And while we're on the subject, why the hell doesn't Maya relax the UVs when you run a smooth on a mesh? I always end up with horrible smears around creases. Rubbish.

[skello]

2byts aaah!! i almost forgot that setup too:thumbsup:

[seasterling]

Real time with how many polys? I've tried working like this in Maya. A 4500 poly object is completely uneditable it is so slow. I also like being able to see the smoothed wireframe in LW.

Maya's selection tools drive me bananas as well. No depth culling, lasso is a seperate tool, can't hide a selection of polys. LW excels here as well. I also really like LWs statistics panel.

[ilasolomon]

My problem too, & I just can suggest to model in WINGS3D then export to Maya for smoothing & rendering & animation & ... (you are just a 'shift+tab' far from watching the smoothed result in almost realtime with a 10000+ polygonal mesh)
I know some ppl experted in maya who now use wings3d just for poly modeling. (me not maya expert but prefer use wings3d for polymodels! for exporting into max, too)
ok, give it a try, you will never be worried about Maya's slow smoothing result, IMO!

[MDuffy]

Greetings all!

one cool thing about 7.5 is the ability to select the patch intersections rather than the control points. this makes it even easier to work in the smoothed mode (subpatch) because you dont need the make the control points visible anymore. just select the part in the mesh you'd like to move or rotate and there you are! very stress-free!

Yes, this is very nice. I unfortunately don't see this happening in Maya with the way its smoothing is set up. You would have to really integrate the smoothing algorithm into the base mesh representation. You'd also have to possibly allow for hidden verts and edges (something I REALLY wish Maya had).

exactly....and if you have enough geometry in the poly proxy you wont have to mess with editing level 1 and 2 vertices on the heavy sub-d surface to refine the look of you model like you want to.

Well, it isn't uncommon to block out the basics of a model, go in and refine part of it, then when you move on to the next part and start refining it you discover you need more or different level 0 geometry. And it also isn't uncommon to have the director/producer/studio/suit dictate a change to the model requiring you to go in and make topology changes to a previously finished model. Maya's workflow is slower than it should be when you reach this point.

well like you said..the smoothing aglorithm is there only to smoothen the look of the model therefore editing the polygon object is exactly what a modeler has to do.

But you want to model towards your final smoothed object, not your "nearly there" cage. And when you are dealing with more significant smoothing, the shape can change quite a bit. Also there are a lot of little passthrough problems that you have to look at the final smoothed version to see. The geometry on Jimmy Neutron is pretty low poly, and the smoothing algorithm defines the look quite a bit. The geometry has to be kept this low to make sure it can be worked with fast so that we can stay on schedule for a TV series. It is vital that we can see the smoothed version quickly and easily as we work.

Maya's SubDivs leech off the poly tools for their level 0 topology changes, which will make them always slower than they could be if they were a fully editable modeling primitive in their own right.

'cut faces' tool in maya works the same as the knife tool if not better....

Cut Faces works similarly, but not the same. Like Cut Faces, it creates a straight cut which you need for working on sets and mechanical objects. The split polygon tool doesn't work as quickly for that. But the Knife tool is much faster and easier to re-orient than Cut Faces because you can grab two end handles and just move them to adjust your cut. I'll probably try to tack on a different interface to the Cut Faces node so that it works more like Knife. Cut Faces is a good example where Maya has the functionality, but they thought about the interface from an engineer's standpoint, not an artist's standpoint.

Maya has layers too and you can rotate and scale just as easily around any point by moving the pivot point anywhere you want..and you know that.

Maya's display layers are different than LW's modeling layers. You can't use Maya's layers for quick modeling tasks, and it is more effort to put something in the layer than with LW. LW's layers and cut/copy/paste tools are also very useful because they bring blendShape data (Endomorphs) with them. I'm working on recreating LW's layer system through MELScript now.

Yes, you can move the Maya rotate/scale pivot around, but you have to hit insert, move your mouse to the pivot, move the pivot, hit insert again, and then rotate your points. If you change your selection (such as removing a few points) then your pivot returns to the center of the selection. This is a much slower workflow than in LW where you can set it to simply rotate around where you click. If you are looking for the right place to pivot it is very quick to click-drag to rotate, hit undo, click-drag to rotate from somewhere else, etc. Unfortunately in Maya you can't access the selection pivot location (not that I've found at least).

The key factor here isn't so much "does Maya have the functionality" but rather "does Maya have a fast and efficient workflow." Fast workflow leads to fast production times, and can be a major deciding factor in a company choosing a software package. I'd love to push for Maya to be used for modeling here at DNA, but I know that out of the box it simply isn't as good of a modeling package as Lightwave.

btw. Was XSI used in creating parts of Jimmy neutron? there are clips of jimmy neutron in the xsi reel.
XSI is cool ..It has modeling tools really similar to LW..and emulates LW's editable proxy feel perfectly.(the poly object and smooth object are the same object)


Thanks for letting us know about Jimmy being on the XSI demo reel. We were unaware of that. No, neither SoftImage or XSI were used on Jimmy Neutron movie or series. That particular shot on their demo reel with Jimmy and the Robo-Barber was done completely in Lightwave, except for animation which was done in Messiah. There is another clip with Jimmy in the Ultra-orb vehicle, but that is from a commercial for the toy and we had nothing to do with that, so I don't know what was used for that shot (could have been the actual toy, not CG.. couldn't tell).

don't get me wrong...i'd rather model in LW anyday but saying maya's modeler is slow or inefficient is totally untrue.

I was saying that Maya's modeler is slow and inefficient when it comes to the "Smooth Proxy" operation, and I completely stand behind that statement. Maya has some good poly modeling tools, but this is one area where it simply falls flat. The thing I'm trying to stress in this thread is that it doesn't need to be that way, and some fairly simply changes to the code could result in this smoothing being on par with LW and MAX as far as speed goes. If we are going to ever use Maya for modeling here at DNA, this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Furthermore..click one button and booyah!! a nurbs patch model....now thats one cool feature!!

This does nothing for me because I have no intention or desire to use NURBS models :)


Thanks for sharing your layout, 2byts. I haven't tried that approach yet. You'll still get the slowdown of the Smooth Poly setup, but it gives an alternative approach to seeing both proxy and smoothed version. The definition of "realtime" depends on your processor and the complexity of your model. When you get a 1000 poly model on my machine, the Smooth Poly approach would drag on my home system, even with the Isolate Selected and two pane approach. Still, I'll need to try out that layout to see how it feels when I get back into modeling in a week or so (deep in scripting-land now).

Again, the Knife tool and MJPolyTools edge looping are not the same. Edge looping would compare more closely to Bandsaw in LW. The Knife tool gives you an easy way to make straight cuts and easily adjust the angle and position that cut moves through your geometry.

The thing is, we WANT to work linearly with modeling. It is much faster to train modelers/artists to work and think linearly than to think procedurally. We don't go back and make adjustments to the nodes in the history (or stack in MAX or XSI). We don't want to. We shouldn't have to. LW allows you to adjust its modeling deformers right then and there before you drop the tool, and that's all the modeling control one needs. After that you should be able to forget about how you got there and just move forward. I personally don't like the pick tool, use, drop, pick, use, drop approach that LW uses, and it is one of the reasons I personally want to model in Maya rather than LW. I don't like how LW deals with dropping selections either. As far as the perspective view goes, I'm not aware of any tools that our modelers use on a regular basis (other than Knife) that don't work well in a perspective view.


And for those who aren't familiar with LW, here's a comparison of smoothed modeling in LW compared to Maya to show how nice it would be if Maya had good smoothing (see attached image). I'll settle for fast smoothing in Maya... I know that laying clean "isoparm" type lines on a smoothed poly mesh is a bit too much to ask for from Alias given their current setup. Still, it would be very nice. I think that a number of Maya modelers don't think working on a model while being able to see the smoothed version in realtime is important is because they haven't been able to do it well yet. They don't understand what they've never had. I've worked in Animation Master, MAX, LW, and Maya, and seen XSI demos, so I know that there is a better way than what is there now.


Later,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[fango]

awesome analysis, and you managed to get away from the retarded "app war" trap.


Yes, you can move the Maya rotate/scale pivot around, but you have to hit insert, move your mouse to the pivot, move the pivot, hit insert again, and then rotate your points. If you change your selection (such as removing a few points) then your pivot returns to the center of the selection

yep changing the pivot for componenents is a pain, but when you say it goes back to center pivot when you change selection, i don t really understand. when i have verts selected for examples, and i change the pivot point, whatever i select after still has that pivot point.

select your verts, hit insert, hit the double circle thingee (

:D ) , move your pivot point, go back to your transform tool and there you go. when you need to "get out" of that pivot , just hit the double circle again and your back to center pivot.
maybe i m talking about something totally different :shrug: , but i have to agree, it does take a lot of operations to get the point down.

now having modeled with maya subd's, i feel that they are truly the dog's bollocks. the smoothing algorithm is very nice compared to subdivided faces and with drag-select on, you can pretty much sculpt your level 0 on the fly. Of course that whole poly proxy mess is a pain and tends to discourage new users rather quickly, but on the whole it makes me sad to see people so keen on flaming maya' subds so quickly.

i hope it s not out of context, but i read maya subd's display levels , awesome concept, are pretty much useless in practice. True that you can tweak above level 3 (think stahlberg goes to level 4) but the only renderer that actually errr renders maya subd's display level is Maya's own renderer , right ? With my little experience in renderman, it only supports display level 0, aye ? so unless you re rendering in maya, you re pretty much stuck in level 0 (wich is usually fine). if anybody has some info on that , please do enlight me.

[Mandrake]

Well, You can not got all that easily:D .. I mean subd level
tweaks are extremly fast in Maya, faster than
"classic smooth metod" in other programs,
you just have to plan the surface more carefully before going
into subd madness:) ( I know.. the directors):hmm: but you
also got great animation setup where relativly low poly cage
drive very detailed subd mesh and you can do very precise
multi blendshape setups (on both cage and level x verts) for
driving skining deformations..
and subds are not "smothed polys" in maya so you can use
displacment mapping in renderers which are efficient with
"high order" surfaces (soon to be very usefull with MR)
..also GL viewport speed in Maya is faster than Lw or Max.. tumbling and rotating objects and similar.

I would also like better smoothing algorithm in Maya, I just
wanted to point out that it's hard to get everything in one
package- othervise there would be only one program, I was
LW user for years ago and I agree LW has very mature and
straightfoward modeler. This is one of the better threads I've
seen here and it would be cool if we can put some pressure
to Alias together :)

fango- that pivot point work(around) cant compare with LWs really, and yes you're stuck on base level for rman
but you can drive mesh through history ending with rman subd.. it's hard workaround but you still have setup advantages with it..

[skello]

And it also isn't uncommon to have the director/producer/studio/suit dictate a change to the model requiring you to go in and make topology changes to a previously finished model. Maya's workflow is slower than it

...agreed..
Once you are done modeling your object..delete the smoothed object and skin the poly object B4 you create a smoothed version...you will see a huge difference in speed.
The key is to incorporate all detail on your poly cage and none whatsoever on the smoothed object.
if you have to change the topology of a previously finished model do it to the poly cage......you will still have realtime feedback if you hide or delete the smoothed version which IMO has no real significance save final rendering and previewing your edits.

[MasonDoran]

Hey guys....have you ever played with the smooth node of the smooth proxy? it does exactly what you are talking about....Maya has 2 different kinds of smooth algorithms.....Exponential and Linear....the latter is for doing what you guys would like and you have lots of control.

Set the push strength to 1 if you want the subdivided surface to match the cage...increase the subdivisions of course for smoother interpretation

The proxy is an 8x8 sphere in green...the pink is the subdivided mesh.

[MasonDoran]

the model of the head that i posted previously clocks at 8000 faces....1000 for the base and 7000 for smoothed + mirror...and has absolutely no slow down...i have worked on poly models over a 100k without any problems...with only slowdowns when i had deformers and a skeleton on the model...

About working with history....well i am obviously an artist...and i really like the ability to "go back in time" if i want to....or be able to tweak the results interactively in the channel box to find out what looks good....instead of undoing the changes and re-entering values a dozen times.

From my experience....people prefer a 3d app largerly because of their personality and how they interact with the computer. There is a certain amount of conditioning and learning involved, but what we all enjoy...is to be able to be an artist and do our job without having to "think" about it...and having diverse but equal apps caters to diverse people...which is important in the end because you cant model in LW the same way you model in Maya or Max or XSI.

[MasonDoran]

one other thing.....if you have 4.5....have you used the poly-brush tool yet? Just push the "o" key if you havent.....this brings up the entire poly tool set...including normals and selections. With this method you use artisan to select....at least AW makes up for their problems by being concise with their tool set.

[Mikkel Jans]

MDuffy i don't see why you think the Smooth Proxy is slow..
I work in both Maya & Max and i think that Max's NURMS is slower.

But i agree that each poly object should have a "Smooth" option planted into it.
Not becouse it would any faster, but becouse it makes complex scenes more orgenized... Instead of 2 objects you got 1 object.

[plotz]

2Byts...question for you.

In the picture you posted, of the monkey-like head, are you using the poly-proxy to drive a smoothed poly mesh, or an actual sub-D surface?

[MDuffy]

Mikkel, are you talking about just putting a MeshSmooth node on a referenced polygon object, or are you talking about turning on NURMS smoothing on an EditablePoly object? In MAX, if you are creating a reference of your object, and then applying MeshSmooth to the reference, you are getting exactly the same thing as Maya 4.5's new Smooth Proxy command, or the CPS scripts. And that approach is slow. But if I recall correctly, if you just turn on smoothing on an Editable Poly object, edits are still fast, and that's the speed Maya SHOULD work at.

BTW Mikkel, thanks for the MJPolyTools! Very nice. I'm building my own modeling interface for Maya, and I'm using your scripts to implement some of the functionality. I'll release my scripts when I'm done.

2byts, try this example to see how slow Maya's Smooth Proxy operation is. Create four poly spheres side-by-side, named Proxy, SmoothProxy, Smoothed, and SubD. Each of them should have around 48x48 divisions for Axis and Height. Delete history on them. Select the one named SmoothProxy and run Polygons->Smooth Proxy on it. Select the one named Smoothed and run Polygons->Smooth on it. Select the one named SubD and run Modify->Convert->Polygons To Subdiv on it. You will have to go into your options panel on the Polygons To Subdiv command and turn "Maximum Base Mesh Faces" up to 10000 and Maximum Edges Per Verex" up to 48 in order to get it to work. Hit your "2" or "3" key to turn subdiv smoothing to medium or high.

Select all four spheres and go into vertex component mode. Now you can grab a bunch of points on each sphere in turn and drag them around. When you drag points on the Proxy and Smoothed spheres, updating is fast. But when you drag points on the Smooth Proxy sphere, updating is really slow. Even on a fast computer you should see this slowdown. On a slower computer or an object with more faces, the slowdown makes editing hell.

Now drag points on your SubD sphere. It moves a little slower than Proxy or Smoothed, but is still fast and it is pulling around a smooth surface. THAT is the speed that Smooth Proxy SHOULD work at. That is also the speed that subdiv Polygon Proxy Mode should work at. And if the polySmoothFace and polyToSubd nodes are rewritten, then Maya CAN work at those speeds. There is no reason Maya shouldn't work at that speed.


As far as using the push attribute to try to approach what LW does, you won't get the same thing. Your smoothed mesh will cover up most of your proxy wireframe object when in shaded mode. And I want the shinkage that occurs when an object is smoothed. It would just be nice if the proxy edges were projected onto the smoothed object like in LW. Unfortunately there isn't a good way to achieve this given how Maya implements its geometry nodes.


Cheers,
Michael Duffy
mduffy@ionet.net

[MasonDoran]

Plotz...the image posted was the proxy mesh with the smoothed proxy

[rock]

This has been the best thread that I've read on comparing poly modeling method between LW and Maya. Although not as organized as LW, the poly tools, scripts and plugins in Maya allows us to have most of the tools that we are used to in LW. But like Michael Duffy have consistently, elegantly, and unequivocally indicated, I agree that the TAB key in LW is the main thing that Maya is missing to generate any significant move from LW modeler. The SwitchSmooth Proxy, scripts or Subdivs just doesn't cut it for me in poly modeling. 2Byts attempted to explain the counter argument and posted the 2 views workaround. But somehow, despite these workarounds, we are still left wishing.

Thanks for the argument and info that doesn't have the feel of another flame war thread.

[rock]

After going back and looking at the smooth operation in Maya 5 (and with the help of the switchSmooth.mel script), I think the no-good smooth operation argument above is a no longer a valid one in Maya 5.

Can someone verify or confirm this?

Thanks.

[RichSuchy]

Originally posted by rock
This has been the best thread that I've read on comparing poly modeling method between LW and Maya. Although not as organized as LW, the poly tools, scripts and plugins in Maya allows us to have most of the tools that we are used to in LW. But like Michael Duffy have consistently, elegantly, and unequivocally indicated, I agree that the TAB key in LW is the main thing that Maya is missing to generate any significant move from LW modeler. The SwitchSmooth Proxy, scripts or Subdivs just doesn't cut it for me in poly modeling. 2Byts attempted to explain the counter argument and posted the 2 views workaround. But somehow, despite these workarounds, we are still left wishing.

Thanks for the argument and info that doesn't have the feel of another flame war thread.

In maya you can always just create a button from a comand or a list of commands. I have made a button to go from poly to sub-d and back again, and could map it to a key I suppose but its ok on the tool bar.

And to whoever posted about Sub-D editing at the crosspoints... As for editing the sub d model from the crosspoints on the surface of the model... I liked that at first till I used it and derived a messy topology with folds that werent aparent... That leads to really bad bone influences and uv mapping.

Maybe if you use it for final tweaks...

I used Lightwave professionally for about 3 years (And may again) And I find I model very fast in both programs... my style is slightly diferent in each one but in Maya I am more precise from the beginning but I get less geometry down in the early stages. In lightwave I get geometry down quickly but spend more time tweeking it to a topology I like. Either way takes me about the same time.

I would like faster Sub-D in maya for puproses of animation and less complex rigging solutions. XSI is very speedy indeed!

[Laa-Yosh]

Digging up the thread for some fun stuff...

Originally posted by sasquatch
And while we're on the subject, why the hell doesn't Maya relax the UVs when you run a smooth on a mesh?

Well, A|W has solved this in Maya 5 at last, with the Smooth UVs option. But guess what.

Turning it on messes up the normals of your object, resulting in ugly shading artifacts both in the viewports and final renders. So after all the years of waiting, we get this with an extra feature (some might go as far as calling it a bug).
Fortunately there's a workaround: you have to assign a Soften Normals to your object with an angle of 180 degrees to correct this. You might as well write a MEL script to automatically assign PolySmoothFace and PolySoftenNormals together... ;)

But I still can't understand Alias - this is a very important feature for the majority of their users, and when they finally implement it, they can only do it buggy... but behold, they have fluids and stuff!

Sorry about the rant, but I've been depressed for a week until we've found the exact problem and its workaround :)

[yinako]

I Hit "P" in maya to see the smoothed geometry and z to toggle back, is that the same as hitting TAB in LW?

I use both Maya and 3ds/max for modeling I eventually find Maya to be faster, it does with time...., and since Maya2.5 I swtich all my modeling work Maya.

[RichSuchy]

Originally posted by Laa-Yosh
Digging up the thread for some fun stuff...
Fortunately there's a workaround: you have to assign a Soften Normals to your object with an angle of 180 degrees to correct this.

good tip

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by yinako
I Hit "P" in maya to see the smoothed geometry and z to toggle back, is that the same as hitting TAB in LW?

I use both Maya and 3ds/max for modeling I eventually find Maya to be faster, it does with time...., and since Maya2.5 I swtich all my modeling work Maya.
lol, Smooth and Undo... hilarious, but it does work. :D
also, I find maya's modeling great, and while it may not be uber-hotkey arena like Lightwave, its quite nice, and regardless if it doesnt have a 1 touch smooth, thats not something that makes its actual modeling tools bad... jeez :surprised
Cheers,
:beer:

[saraki]

It's good to know that i'm not the only one out there that is shocked with Maya's modelling capabilities.

There were a couple things i wanted to accomplish in the past year when i began learning 3d modelling and wanted to apply it to my portfolio. I am a student and every moment i spend practicing and learning these 3d packages is something i do not want to waste.

1) To model accurately and efficiently - technically complex models
including organic forms.

2) To model quickly and productively - this means, each time i move my vertex, i want to move it as few times as possible to get it into the right place.

In modelling, hundreds of vertexes are moved thousands of times, making this eyeballing process of judgment - as to where a vertex should be and adjusting edgeloops - a very tedious process.

In 3Dmax, I was able to move a vertex on the polygon cage and then check, the actual subdivision-on model in a more productive manner than since having switched to maya.

I use ConnectPolyShape and MJTools at the moment.

One of the main problems i've noticed in maya is that it is more difficult for me to see the relationship between a model's polyproxy cage and the actual model with subdivisions-on.

I would like to tryout Lightwave for modelling some day having seen some spectacular work come out of it. One Good example is Martin Murphy's post on cgtalk with his human male model - if you look closely, at his one posted picture of his model with subdivisions ON and OFF, you'll see how clear the relationship between the two is. I'm not saying this isn't achievable in maya, but from my experience, modelling it in maya would probably be less-efficient.

If there is a mel script that could execute the relationship shown in martinmurphy's posted picture, I would like to know of it and if possible email me or post of it. I am still learning so if any of this post is irrelevant, please let me know, i'm only posting this having experienced this problem like others who have posted and have noticed the maya modelling compared to other packages - in my case 3dmax.

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?postid=55110

You can see that in this pic, an edge in the subD-oFF side can correspond clearly to the subD-On side

[rob-beddall]

hey!!

reading this post i have heard talk of a smooth proxy mode in maya.

is it in maya4.0?

i have searched the help files but i can't seem to find anything on it.
anybody know where it is? and is it better than Cps?

cheers!!:beer:

[rimasson]

Hey guys, when you work with smooth proxy with Maya,
don't forget to go to the 'performance settings' window and to set the refresh option from 'drag' to 'release' or 'demand'

It will speed up A LOT

Francois Rimasson.

[NeonGuy]

hey rimasson. thanks for the idea. i think i will change this thing to release when i modeling something with smooth proxy :)

five stars!!!

[greek_fire]

Originally posted by ROB_BEDDALL
hey!!

reading this post i have heard talk of a smooth proxy mode in maya.

is it in maya4.0?

i have searched the help files but i can't seem to find anything on it.
anybody know where it is? and is it better than Cps?

cheers!!:beer:

no, but there is a mel script/utility workaround. (it's not called smooth proxy)

Maya 4 Fundamentals outlines it, but actually now that i think of it, the docs should tell you. search for smoothing operation node etc.

[rob-beddall]

hey!!:wavey:
on 2nd look i found what seems to be a clumsy, homemade sort of way of doing it in the help files. something about conecting nodes in the hypergraph. i think this is basically what the "connect poly shape" plug-in is doing anyway. so i think i will stick with that.
cheers!!:beer:

[NeonGuy]

hi.

Rob_Beddall: i think what you search is in the docs under a topic emulating subdivision modeling or something like this. i don't remember exactly. all you have to do is write 2 commands for maya, and you have a smooth proxy. in maya 4.0 or 4.5 of course. the first line is "polyDuplicateAndConnect;". this is for sure. the other? i don't remember, sorry.

[greek_fire]

yeah, i didn't know what CPS was. im guessing its mel off highend or something. never sought it out since i've access to smooth proxy.

[Marcel]

I find that working with ConnectPolyShape in combination with Gino Dammers's layer switch script is absolutely great!

Bind this script to a key (I've put it on the ~ key) and put your proxy objects in a layer named 'cpsProxy' and your base objects in the layer 'cpsBase' The script will switch the visibility of the layers. Superfast switching.

http://www.ginodammers.com/melscripts/cpsLayerSwitch.mel

[Blums]

We all use CPS or Smooth Poly Proxy as a work around for SubDs cause we all agree Maya is lacking in SubD implementation.

I'm very angry about this because this process has been obsolete with LW since it was able to import MetaNURBS (SubPatches) into layout.

In my opinion...the problem isn't with modeling in Maya but what you can do with you mesh after you model. I can't use stuff like Texture Reference object on a polysmoothed mesh for example.

What is Alias saying about all this?

Will we ever have a polybevel tool that doesn't produce tris? How stupid is that? How hard is that too fix?

[Marcel]

We all use CPS or Smooth Poly Proxy as a work around for SubDs cause we all agree Maya is lacking in SubD implementation.

As far as I know the SmoothPolyProxy is exactly the same method as Lightwave and Max are using as their smoothing algorithm. My NURMS smoothed mesh from Max looks exactly the same in Maya with CPS. You can't spot the difference.

What do you find lacking in Maya's Subdivisions? (apart from missing modelling tools).

[Elliotjnewman]

what pisses me off with Maya's poly tools is that they just seem to refuse to work.

like selecting continuous edges, and the cut faces tool messes up all the time, as does the fill hole tool etc..

I think Alias should make sure that MJPolyTools is in as part of its toolset.

L

[Blums]

Your UV maps get all crazy when you convert to Maya SubDs. Even PolysSmooth had problems with UV maps up until 4.5. It's been fixed in 5 for PolySmooth at least.

This is why I'm trying to learn XSI at the moment. It doesn't seem to have the same problems. Hit +, no problem.

[EMJAY]

I have been tring to get info in another thread about this. I also came to Maya from a Max background and sorely miss the smoothing groups function. I know you can use polySoftEdge or whatever it is but it lacks the functionality of smoothing groups that Max has. I love using Maya for all operations, but poly modelling needs an overhaul. Perhaps now that Autodesk have bought Alias out, they will address these issues.

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