Arch vis with Messiah

[Wegg]

I think it would do just fine.

[Labuzz]

Be sure to try the Demo...In my opinion messiah is NOT suited for Arch Vis. Modo is a better choice ( i own both ) and theres a demo too.

[Wireframes]

Agree with Labuzz.

Phil

Edit : Messiah and modo play well together (except for Ngons).

[biliousfrog]

I work in Arch Viz & own Messiah & although I keep meaning to try some building work in messiah it always seems like far too much effort compared to using Lightwave. I recently worked on a converted chapel that I might try with M:S, the SSS would look great on the glass & displaced stone walls would work well but for everyday work Lightwave is much easier to work with IMO.

If I wanted to be one of those really annoying 3d smarty-pants I could say that almost any 3d app can do arch viz perfectly well but I'm not, so I won't:D ......I personally would find it quite frustrating opening, tweaking & saving objects constantly between apps which is why I would go for an intergrated modeller & renderer such as Lightwave, Modo, Max etc. You'll no doubt discover that creating arch.viz is not just a case of getting the plans from a client, modelling & rendering....there will be architects, developers, planners, various agents & regulations who will constantly refine & ammend the plans right up until the building is completed. I've had to ammend some renders over a year after they were delivered to the client.

So, Messiah is great & could be used but I personally would find it much easier with other apps....& don't expect to pick it up in a week.

[catizone]

First, I love messiah for character work.

That said, if you want to work in one package, know LW and have it, I'm tempted to say that if there's a good bit of work I would probably rely on the package I know. Wanting to use the job as justification to learn the rendering and shading elements of messiah is great. But is it a practical choice in terms of logistics?

I have found that when the crunch gets going, speed becomes important...as is knowing how to get a specific effect without a lot of experimentaton with something I haven't learned yet. Client's always throw you a curve, whether it's a deadline change or a conceptual change. In a program you know, it usually only takes minutes to decide how to deal with it.

I'd probably go with LW, and spend my freetime learning messiah, and use it on the next job.

Best,
Rick

[stooch]

heh my stance has always been that messiah should focus on animation. so you can guess what i would say about using messiah render on an archvis project. BTW, arranging stuff in messiah would be a pain in the ass. the messiah connection is not very stable with LW at this point and its not very intuitive to update the objects as you go. overall interaction for arranging stuff in the scene is also a bit sluggish when compared to LW or modo, its great for CA but gets a bit clunky due to its unorthodox navigation. I would give my left nutt to the PMG team to just focus on the CA stuff and standardized navigation scheme and just overall polish of that side of messiah.... so yeaaah, if you want archvis, i would say that both MODO and LW are the better candidates. Although, if you want to do flythroughs then LW is the better choice.

oh and i dont know if anyone has noticed this, but MODOs GI render is very unstable and produces alot of jitter so animating in modo has to get around this obstacle..

[ThomasHelzle]

Do you own any other rendering apps that you are fluent in?
Do you have good rendering experience?

One week isn't much for anyone (other than Stooch ;) ), so equal what App you use, you may run into some serious crunch if you are after high quality.
Messiahs shaderflow is one of it's best parts, but many people find nodes complicated to think in - I don't know why.
If everything is texture-mapped already externally, you can give it a try I think. Placing textures in messiah itself I find tedious.
As was said before: give the demo a try and find out how it feels.

If you just start out with rendering, I can't think of an app I would really recommend to learn within a week - there will be tons of stuff to get into your brain.

I personally hate how modo does materials, so you will get as many opinions as people + 1 ;-)

Well, I like XSI Foundation the most as an overall package. LOL

Cheers and good luck!

[John Keates]

Thanks for all the input guys!

I think I will pass for now on messiah. I can use Maya at a place where I freelance so I might be doing it on that... but I have also been thinking of Modo and I have seen some nice arch vis examples from there.... and it works well with Messiah you say? Interesting... it that just modelling in modo and animate/render in messiah or does modos renderer get in there?

I tried the demo of Maxwell and fount that the workflow from Silo was managable-ish and the renders looked great .... but £600... that is my budget gone + it is slow.

ps... yeah... XSI could be good. I have dabbled with MR.... hmmm.... it would be a good way of learning at home...

There is too much software and it makes my head hurt.

Again, thanks for the info and sorry for babbling...

[Wegg]

You consider lightwave integrated? You know. . that modeler button in Layout that launches the dreaded "Hub" has mangled up soo many projects of mine its nuts. Most "Hard core" lightwave users switch that sucker off.

John, Messiah gives you the animation that Modo doesn't have. . .

Messiah gives you the GI speed that Lightwave doesn't have. . .

And to top it off you get all the sexy cool nodal shader flow, amazing displacement map control with almost no "hit" in render speed. Unlimited render nodes (like lightwave) when you go to render your work on a network.

Like I said. . . messiah will do just fine.

I think people are timid with using Messiah because there aren't a gazillion tutorials out there that hold your hand through the entire process. But what they are missing is the fact that we are a strong community that love to help out and are up for any challenge. Pop into #Messiah3D on irc.freenode.net and find out.

[stooch]

you cannot animate in modo. actually if you are using maya then there are scripts taht let you import baked animations and camera paths.

anyway, for stills, use whatever you are most comfortable with. I wouldnt even put it past maya to do it. it just takes more skill to get something decent out of maya IMO, for the quickest learning curve, id say its modo....

especially if you consider working with materials and shading.

btw i saw that thomas, lol :)

wegg. what makes people timid about messiah, is the little quirks. we killed alot of them during render testing sessions, but honestly the types of people that use messiah are generalists with a varied toolset. I have like 6 various programs in my arsenal and usually use the best attributes of each program to get the job done. From messiah, i expect solid animation, the render engine is a nice bonus but its hindered by the fact that there is only one render manager available (BNR)...

What slows me down in messiah ar the following:

- shader management. ie when you get alot of surfaces.
- rendering artifacts, we knocked down alot of them but there are still some lurkers...
- node preview could be better.
- need more presets! I have a bunch in my other programs, maybe we should make a community preset bin?
- limited region is heinous...

[ThomasHelzle]

Stooch: Just having a little fun with you ;)

This discussion is really funny and neverending. There is no "Photoshop" in 3D, so this topic makes every CG artist sweat if he may have missed something. ;-)

I know that XSI gave me back the fun with 3D that I lost with Lightwave.
I don't think it's shaderflow is as well implemented as the one in messiah, but it is very solid and powerful.
I lately started to look deeper into it's animation tools to decide on a personal project, and I think it will be also XSI instead of messiah in this department for me in the future.

It is so unfair that it is only 495.-$

Well, who said life is fair? :p

Cheers,

[Wireframes]

oh and i dont know if anyone has noticed this, but MODOs GI render is very unstable and produces alot of jitter so animating in modo has to get around this obstacle..

I have noticed this also. But it is interesting to use baking from modo and render to Messiah.

[Wegg]

the fact that there is only one render manager available (BNR)...

That one works just fine. . . More than fine. Its pretty much the best solution out there with the best FREE support by Paul Lord. Who. . . BTW is the guy Modo hired to work on their solution. So Messiah already has the best! ha ha!

What slows me down in messiah ar the following:

- shader management. ie when you get alot of surfaces.

Didn't they fix that in the last version? You can copy and paste materials now. . I can't think of anything lightwave has that Messiah doesn't in that reguard.

- rendering artifacts, we knocked down alot of them but there are still some lurkers...

Yea if your doing crazy precise GI tests with balls inside of Cornell boxes and looking at it with a magnifying glass compared to all other renderers out there. . . yes. . . there were artifacts. But come on. . . for Architect pre-vis stuff. . . Messiah would do great!

- node preview could be better.

That would stop you from using the whole program? Because the little ball on each node doesn't preview what your doing better? Lightwave doesn't even have that! I don't even think Modo does!

- need more presets! I have a bunch in my other programs, maybe we should make a community preset bin?

Didn't someone just port the entire Darktree library over as presets? Come on Stooch. . . Thats noob talk.

- limited region is heinous...

huh. You just select the region you want to render. . . and press F9. Just like lightwave.

To me Thomas has a much stronger argument with XSI. But even that only gives you a few render nodes with Mental Ray before you have to start paying for them.

[stooch]

hmm. damn wegg are you sure you arent on the PR payroll haha. Messiah could have the best shader flow and render engine, but the biggest hindrance will always be comprehensive and complete connectivity to other programs. its like the achiles heel. In modo i can model while rendering, in LW i can model and switch over and everything just transfers across. messiah still depends on shaky connections or baking solutions. If you are modeling for archvis, messiah is simply not the best choice. But if you really feel that it is, then feel free and tell it to the guy who asked this question. Sorry if we dont agree but im not here to convince you of anything. :)

BTW. lmitied region IS horrible. you have 4 boxes that you adjust to define a square. WTF???? in LW you press L and then drag a box. Modo btw also has a horrible limited region interface, coincidence??? another thing, say you drag the limited region boxes with the mouse....the values change but the box doesnt until you click on the main screen.... not very intuitive...

[ThomasHelzle]

hahaha - Wegg, you are so funny - LOL

I'm not interested in fighting you, but just for completeness, LW9 has preview balls on shadernodes. ;-)
And the shadertree is very close to be almost as good and is definitely more complete than messiahs.

Cheers,

[PaulNewman]

hmm. damn wegg are you sure you arent on the PR payrollthe plot thickens...:eek:

[Wegg]

Can you set up a scene in Lightwave and render it in Maya with the default install? How about Modo? XSI?

I don't think so. Why is Messiah's supirior inter-platform connectivity under question when that isn't even an option in most other packages without yet more 3rd party software?

When I'm working in Messiah and Wings/Lightwave modeler/Silo/Zbrush/Hexagon. . . I save my model in "+app+". . . start Messiah and all my models are updated. Freedom of choice. Just like lightwave without that hub. I can't believe your using that hub and not cursing its very exhistance. . .

With the limited region tool. . . just ctrl-drag on any corner to adjust its position. Ctrl-drag in the middle to move the whole thing around. How is that hard/horrible?

[Wegg]

hahaha - Wegg, you are so funny - LOL

I'm not interested in fighting you, but just for completeness, LW9 has preview balls on shadernodes. ;-)
And the shadertree is very close to be almost as good and is definitely more complete than messiahs.

Cheers,

OOo very cool. I haven't gotten into that yet. Lightwave's edge tools in Modeler have made me fall in love with it all over again. I know its too little too late but it sure did make a huge difference.

[Wegg]

the plot thickens...:eek:

I wish. No. . . just a zealot. But I'm pretty sure I have my head screwed on right. Modo looks amazing. Especially the ability to have a render window open WHILE YOU MODEL. So sexy. XSI provides a complete integrated solution that is very compelling as well. . .

Lots of cool stuff out there. They all come with great big "Gotchas" that Messiah doesn't have IMO.

I just hate when Messiah gets dissed out of hand due to silly un-related issues people have with it. I think its up there with all the other kick ass stuff. . . and for something as simple as a building pre-vis!?! Come on. . . Messiah would piss that in.

[ThomasHelzle]

Hahaha - it becomes more and more funny LOL

One day I would love to show you XSI and how convenient THAT is, compared to the clumsy edge stuff in LW. Everything works with edges.
I think you really need an "update".

...and there you drag the render region WHILE you are modeling... and that modeling can be animated... and... :p

Cheers :thumbsup: :bounce: :beer:

[Wegg]

Well I'm all about winged edge modeling. Have been since I used NWorld on an SGI over 10 years ago. The way Wings3D works totally fits in with that. So I haven't been missing anything with Lightwave. . . its just that now with LW9 I can alter a model after I have done all my endomorphs with greater ease. It was a major pain in the bootie before.

Yea I'm well aware that my toolset is antiquated at times. I just have yet to be convinced of anything better. Especially now that I'm involved in some pretty amazing plugins for Lightwave that provides REALTIME rendering right out of your GPU. Ooo man its sexy.

[dobermunk]

... and... :p

coughmotionblurcough
oh yeah, there's a plug for motionvector pases, but - hey, isn't that a work around ;-)

[ThomasHelzle]

David: I didn't get that remark?

Wegg: so you are the guy who is betatesting PIM? :-)

Sorry, I shouldn't be the one to try to convince you. It's just what fits me.

Best regards,

[Wegg]

Wegg: so you are the guy who is betatesting PIM? :-)

SSSshhh! <quiet voice> one of many. It rules. </quiet voice>

[Wireframes]

One day I would love to show you XSI and how convenient THAT is, compared to the clumsy edge stuff in LW. Everything works with edges.
I think you really need an "update".

I have made the update of LW9 and I regret, I have tested XSI two weeks.

I note that LW9 took an enormous delay unfortunately in all points of view (modeler opengl from Stone Ages / GI render too slow / LW9 Hub freeze / poor modeler selection mode / 10000000 plugins to work cool with / Character Animation ...).

I can say only one thing: I give up Lightwave definitively.

Phil (still love Messiah ;) )

[dobermunk]

I'm just saying: I've yet to see a ware that excludes everything else with its grandness. And doubt I will. xsi has some truly great stuff - and some curve management, NLA idiocy that bogs the mind. Motion blur was a catastrophe, etc. Layer management and the surfacing nodes were sweet, and lots of the new dynamics looked it too - but particles was far from ou-of-the-box.

We stand in baby shoes!

[Wireframes]

nobody is perfect ;)

Just enough to await promises and evolutions from NT...

[ThomasHelzle]

David: Hm, I would be really interested in the animation problems you encountered since I'm just starting into that - so far I did mostly stills for illustrations - but this would be even more off topic as we are already ;-)

[PaulNewman]

This thread started educational, then amusing, then funny, then mysterious, and now I'm *again* reconsidering professional 3D entirely. :shrug:

I wonder if any pmG employees/shareholders have a comment on how their app will do at archtiecture. :shrug:

Doesn't architecture also often require trees and plants, indoors and out? Does this job require that? If so, what to use to solve that in a messiah workflow? :shrug:

[biliousfrog]

Wegg, I understand where you're coming from regarding Messiah's renderer...it's far ahead of Lightwave pre-9 but I won't use it for arch.viz because it is too complex. When it comes to using a load of tilable textures such as bricks & wood I personally can work much faster with Lightwave's surfacing system than Messiah's. In the past 3-4 years I can only think of one job (the chapel that I mentioned earlier) that would benefit from using Messiah & that is purely for my own benefit, the client was over the moon with what he recieved. At the end of the day it comes down to what's best for you & the job.

ZBrush is great for creating detailed models, you could create an amazing building over the course of a week but if the client is happy with something made in a day with Lightwave, XSI, Max, Modo etc then what's the point? That's kinda how I feel with Messiah, great renderer but not quite an all-rounder like many others.

As for the hub, never had a problem with it...in fact the auto-save has rescued many projects & I couldn't bare to live without it.

[Wegg]

Doesn't architecture also often require trees and plants, indoors and out? Does this job require that? If so, what to use to solve that in a messiah workflow? :shrug:

I don't understand why you would think that would be so hard? Vue can pump out trees in the .lwo format with all their UVs etc. Poser can pump out people already posed that you could randomly place around the scene. Just texture and light. Easy peazy. Most of your time for a project like that would be spent in the modeler OF YOUR CHOICE.

/me licks his Messiah dongle.

[John Keates]

I don't understand why you would think that would be so hard? Vue can pump out trees in the .lwo format with all their UVs etc. Poser can pump out people already posed that you could randomly place around the scene. Just texture and light. Easy peazy. Most of your time for a project like that would be spent in the modeler OF YOUR CHOICE.


That is more-or-less a mirror of what I was going to say. As I understand it, Messiah has no modelling tools and I would be using Silo. Hmmm.... Silo. I would plan to build the whole scene in there and load it in as one obj. Would Materials be preserved in some way? Ideally I would be able to just alter the materials that I assigned in Silo but I am guessing that would be wishfull thinking.

I am assuming that all the textures will come through with an obj? Or at least the uvs would be there and I would just have to assign images and set repeat amounts for things like wood floors?

By the way, I am teaching myself MR for maya today and have gotten glossy reflections layered with brown diffuse to work (I am thinking wooden floors)... but the work-around to get bump-mapping in there looks horrible (not dared do it yet). And I have yet to get onto fresnel reflection...

How does Messiah handle that stuff? I saw a nice looking render of a computer mouse with some fresnell on there (over the top, but it was there).

[Wegg]

Messiah can do all that you are asking of it and more. I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

Doing it all as one obj is a bit overkill. . . but would work. I'd think you would want to make one tree. . . and then copy/paste it in Messiah. But. . . whatever floats your boat. Messiah can handle it all.

[John Keates]

Or I could import different bits of the obj at a time.... yes. About time I downloaded the demo me thinks... I just hope I have time to play before the job starts.

[Wegg]

BTW. . . compared to Animation Master. . . Messiah's renderer is WARP SPEED! Have a go at setting something up between the two with the same complexity. Like a ball with a soft ray traced light. Not even any GI. Messiah will be 100X faster than Animation Master. . . which. . . is sad. :-( AM really is a fun/cool/powerful app.

[John Keates]

BTW. . . compared to Animation Master. . . Messiah's renderer is WARP SPEED! Have a go at setting something up between the two with the same complexity. Like a ball with a soft ray traced light. Not even any GI. Messiah will be 100X faster than Animation Master. . . which. . . is sad. :-( AM really is a fun/cool/powerful app.

Yeah. I still use it. I have been doing pre-vis animation for TV branding people and the stuff I knock up in two days doesn't look so different to the final thing, fully rigged and all. Then the designers pay a studio literally 15 times my daily rate to do the final thing. Where am I going wrong?

[PaulNewman]

I don't understand why you would think that would be so hard? Vue can pump out trees in the .lwo format with all their UVs etc.Didn't think it would be hard, Wegg. Just tried to get the thread back on topic with regards to the original post. Plus, I don't do arch viz so I'm not familiar with the tools of the day so that's why I'm asking, considering that plants and architecture often go together. :)

[stooch]

Yeah. I still use it. I have been doing pre-vis animation for TV branding people and the stuff I knock up in two days doesn't look so different to the final thing, fully rigged and all. Then the designers pay a studio literally 15 times my daily rate to do the final thing. Where am I going wrong?


haha i found out the hard way that the client will always pay a bigger / better equipped studio the big bucks just because of the added security of knowing that more people will work on the project and have more dedicated resources to get it done right... even if you could do the job by yourself, there is more chance for you to miss a deadline then a studio with a larger team.

[John Keates]

haha i found out the hard way that the client will always pay a bigger / better equipped studio the big bucks just because of the added security of knowing that more people will work on the project and have more dedicated resources to get it done right... even if you could do the job by yourself, there is more chance for you to miss a deadline then a studio with a larger team.

Yeah, true... that is exactly why they got the other guys to do it. And, in a way, they are right. You really have to prove yourself in production to earn respect. Another one of those catch 22 situations to work through.

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