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psychojohno
08-20-2006, 12:13 PM
Hey i have been working on a church ruin which i will hopefully be the first thing i will load into the farcry editor and use in the game :) if that turns out well i hope to add a haunted forest enviroment along with other buildings and a few caves and create a nice map

Its based on this church i found on the internet http://www.eriding.net/media/wharram.shtml

Im not happy with it at the moment as it looks a bit plain and needs more detail but im struggeling to think of what i can add so suggestions would be great especially for the exterior. Obviously i havnt textured it yet so that might make it look better in the end.

It weighs in at total of 4179 tris.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/church4.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/church2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/church3.jpg

ps im sorry about the messed up post before computer whent mad lol

cheers

ChimpanG
08-20-2006, 02:32 PM
right well the main rule when posting for crits is to post wires, everyone wants to see wires.
also your renders are horrid, please just take screengrabs or render them in a way we can SEE everything be it GI or what because as you probably can see half of the faces are almost black in those renders where the shadows are cast and we cant see them.
it'd also be nice for you to link us to the actual references rather than a site we'd have to search.

now onto actual crits from what i do have:
679 polys looks to be a great polycount for something that big but i fear because of how low it is you likely have lots of thin polygons welding to single points, these arent good for realtime lighting at all, you will want lots of mid sized square polygons, these light better - we will see what you can do once the wire comes.

as for the actual geometry it looks nice however if its a ruin i'd like to see more ruin and less straight lines.

psychojohno
08-20-2006, 02:50 PM
Oh yes sorry here is the wire

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/churchwire.jpg

and some images of the church

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/wharram/040822_cb_mp_his_wp_15.jpg

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/wharram/040610_cbrown_mp_his_wharram_church_ruin5.jpg

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/wharram/040812_cbrown_mp_his_windows.jpg

i have changed the door at the end into a window as you can see in the wire

AndrewRaZ
08-20-2006, 05:26 PM
i've been working on a church ruin as well for the current UGAC. i think you can probably afford some more detail in the geometry, but i don't know what kind of specs you're aiming for. i usually tend to aim high and optimize if i need to, that way i have as much detail as possible. but that's me, and you're using Far Cry, which is surprisingly low-poly most of the time.

you mentioned you're struggling with what else to add. i have two suggestions: first and foremost, get some more reference. do google searches on church ruins, abbey, etc. i have a couple hundred i've downloaded for mine, and there's no such thing as too much reference (unless you can't decide which ones to use...). the second would be to add some indictation that the church is ruined. right now, apart from the lack of a roof, the church is pretty much intact. over the years, exposure to the elements tends to break down masonry at weak points, causing collapse. create some indication of that. i think once you start adding some of that ambience and texturing and lighting it, it'll really come together for you.

good luck!

zaki79
08-20-2006, 11:09 PM
Since it's Roman architecture from 13th century (?) walls should be thicker and as in every lowpoly project the texturing will be crucial for Yours too.

- maybe You could add a few pieces of collapsed roof structure on the ground...

good luck! :)

psychojohno
08-21-2006, 09:54 AM
Thanks guys. zaki79 I will make the walls thicker for sure! And i was going to add collapsed roof objects inside. I know the texturing will be very important so im going to have to spend a long time on that and will probably make a lot of mistakes as im not very good at it lol.

I was thinking of making a normal map for the bricks and possibly the arches and windows, but i dont know anything about them so the normal map would have to repeat like the texture, is this possible. Does anybody have any links on normal mapping, especially if its using maya.

Cheers

zaki79
08-21-2006, 11:51 AM
Johny I found this when googling for maya and normal maps - I am a max user but I think this maybe helpful for You

http://www.simplymaya.com/movie_pages/tutorial.mhtml?tut_id=102

Registration is free - it's video tutorial (63mb/27min) about creating normal maps for buildings like Yours I guess

:)

psychojohno
08-21-2006, 05:56 PM
Thanks again zaki79 I have made my normal map for the bricks now after following that tutorial. That was the easy part its just getting them to display in maya. I know that maya doesnt display normal maps as default but i also know there are plugins for doing it. I have tried the nividia site and downloaded the files but they do like to difficult for me. Sure they have manuals but they are hundreds of pages long and go on and on about programming this and that and to be honest i dont understand and i dont care lol. all i want to know is how to install the plugins! I tried just copying the files i downloaded into the maya files as they were named the same but that didnt work. Does anbody know how to do it?

The files a downloaded from nividia were the cg tool kit 1.2 and the maya cg plug in. Am i missing something.

If you know of where i can get a differnt plugin from please tell me!

Anyway here is my normal map its 512 x 512

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/wall_normal.jpg

psychojohno
08-22-2006, 09:30 AM
A small update. I still havnt been able to get my normal map for the brick to tile and display in maya so if you can give me some hints that would be good. Im having trouble deciding what colour bricks i want so i have made this image and you can tell me what you think is best

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/wallchoice-1.jpg

The walls are now a lot thicker and i have this shot of the tower on the back which i have decided to make collapsed

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/towerback.jpg

i have also added differnt windows on the left side to the ones on the right to add some variation aswell as a bigger arch on one of the walls, a few doors and window ledges

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/window.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/details1.jpg

Im thinking about adding broken stained glass to one of the big windows but im not sureat the moment

help with the normal map would be great as well as your opinions on the textures

xbiten
08-22-2006, 11:14 AM
hey psychojohno! looking sweet! about the cgtoolkit; you have to load the cgfx plugin in the pluginmanager(I think thatīs the name). Then you need to create a cgfx material in the hypershade, load the cgscript youīre going to use. I think thatīs about it. Ohh, if you use maya 7 I think the cg toolkits core(or what itīs name) is already installed! cheers!

psychojohno
08-22-2006, 09:11 PM
thanks xbiten but the problem is i cant get it to display in the plug in manager. Im using maya 5 i also cant get them shaders to show! :sad:

xbiten
08-23-2006, 01:15 AM
hmm that sounds weird! Sorry I canīt help you. Arenīt there any manual or something?

psychojohno
08-23-2006, 10:28 AM
Thanks for your help xbiten but I cant find manuals on how to install it. All I can find is 200 page long manuals on how it works and lines of code. I think this is a bit poor from nividia maybe they don’t want anybody to figure out how to install it lol Somebody must have the answer HELP ME!!!

Anyway my Dailey update lol. I have started unwrapping my model and have added my stone texture. I’m going to need to paint the texture for the arches which I will be really bad at I have also decided to add a stained glass window (which will appear broken) but I cant get it to appear stained glass First of all I need the light to shine through! Then I need the light that shines through to be the same colour as the glass how can I do this in Maya or any other program for that matter?


I also decided to model borders around the windows, doors and the bottom of the walls because I didn’t like the way the brick texture just came right up to the edge of the windows and went into the floor. In the end of hope to add long grass inside the church to add to the abandoned effect as well as cover it in plants (probably ivy) to make it look better as well as hide the tiling textures a bit! Here are some shots


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/texture4.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/texture3.jpg

Psionic Design
08-23-2006, 12:13 PM
Coming along nicely, doesn't look particularly ruined yet but I assume you'll be messing up some of those straight lines and dirtying up the texture a bit later on!! Maybe add some rubble too where the roof etc has fallen in??

psychojohno
08-24-2006, 11:30 AM
Cheers Psionic thats my plan is that i will fill it with weeds and rubble when its done! Still havnt solved my normal map problem so somebody help!

I have started work on the texture for the arches. As i said i suck at texturing so please crit me so i can improve :thumbsup:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/texture4-1.jpg

hakanpersson
08-24-2006, 01:15 PM
Still havnt solved my normal map problem so somebody help!I

havent read the entire post, so maybe i repeat whats already said. Here goes,

maya 7/8?
m8 is much better at rendering normalmaps than maya7.
If maya 7, and if you are using tangentbased(yours are) you need 3rd party to render afaik, like jsnormal(pixero).

However, if you can get those normalmaps in objectbased instead, you can render with software, by connecting the outColor on the normalmap, to normalCamera on the material.
It is possible to show in the viewport, but its always some problem in one or another way.

Tiling? Like you always tile, the "repeat u and v" in the place2dtexture node, if it doesnt have one, just drag 2dplacement out and connect the the normalmap by default.

this way you should at least be able to render them:) hope it helps somewhere.
/Håkan

psychojohno
08-24-2006, 02:26 PM
Thanks that was a great help :) gemorat. you havnt repeated anything as nobody has really told me anything about how to do it! Im using maya 5 will it still work and could you tell me where to get this jsnormal is it a plug in or a shader?

If i make the normal map object based i wont be able to tile it will i? Im getting pissed off! everybody either tells me how to do it in 3ds max or sends me to this stupid tutorial http://www.drone.org/tutorials/normal_maps.html which doesnt help wat so ever! Why can i just not get a simple reply with some plug in that will actually install and work..

cheers again

hakanpersson
08-25-2006, 08:34 AM
http://pixero.com/downloads.html

It says maya 6->, worth a try maybe? Another place to look is highend3d, on the maya board.
In fact Maya can do most things, the features are just well hidden:)
And all normalmaps can be tiled.

And another thing, the "bump 2d" node is aswell used for tangent-normalmaps, you can connect it to the bump-channel by default and add the normalmap there too, and switch from "use as bump" to normalmap, in the attributeeditor. This is for maya7 at least.

psychojohno
08-25-2006, 12:16 PM
Thanks for your help gemo rat but it didnt work lol oh well i will have to wait untill i figure out how to get it into farcry and do it then... Anyway i have done a little more work on my textures for the windows and the borders around the bottom. I have a crappy looking ground texture but hopefully when im done you wont see much of it because it will be full of them lovely far cry plants and roof rubble lol :thumbsup: Just wondered whats the typical poly count now days for something like im doing? At the moment my model is at 5538 tris

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/texture5.jpg

psychojohno
08-26-2006, 10:36 PM
Hmmm so nobody has anything to say about it? It might look crap but i need you guys to comment on it so i can make it better so please post something! :eek: Its really important i make it look nice this will probably be in my portfolio when i apply for uni!

TheZer0
08-27-2006, 12:49 PM
At the moment the texture looks way to pristine for a ruined church. Look at your references and notice all the erosion along the inside and outside of the church. Along the top a lot of the visible stonework appears to have been pretty well blasted by the elements and there's a lot of dirt and grime in the cracks. I think I'd go back to the more tan color for the texture instead of this gray, mainly because if you're talking about putting this into Farcry or whatever, I'd think a ruined church in a hot jungle environment would be pretty 'baked' and would probably have more of a tannish color to it if its been there for a long time. Also on the Farcry note, I'd add some fungus or something to the cracks along the dirt, etc and if you're going to do ivy and stuff it might also be a nice touch to put some flowers budding up in certain areas just for an added touch. I guess the main thing is don't be afraid to dirty the crap out of this, because it is after all ruined. ;]

Also, since you've mentioned you're not too good at texturing it might help to lay out a story to point you in the right direction, ask yourself things like "How did the roof collapse?" or "How did this dark patch of dirt get by this window" as you begin texturing. If you develop a history for your object it'll make texturing that much more easier and/or fun to do and it might give you more ideas on what to add to it to make it that much more 'real' when you load it up into the editor.

Just my two cents :)

Good luck.

SylvanMist
08-27-2006, 04:35 PM
You should probably make those walls not all straight and pretty if it's supposed to be a "ruined" church. Even the window panes..make some of them broken, or not there at all. If you're working with a 5k+ poly count that should be no problem for you to do. And work more with the textures..really dirty it up, have some stones broken, maybe some moss growing around it.
Of course it all depends on just how much in ruins this church is as well.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about though, this image is made up out of very low-poly models. But it has a main "wall" texture on it, plus on the tops and sides of the walls I made a rubble like texture, so it looks as if it's broken up. You might want to do something like that too with the tops/sides of walls if you break them up.

psychojohno
08-28-2006, 02:11 PM
Thanks I have what you have said in and changed a few things. Im getting pretty tired of working on the church now so i have decided to start making graves and trees etc. So here are some of the last shots of the church for a while. I Will be posting my props here later.

TheZero- I have broken the edges a bit and took a lot of chunks out of the tower but i wont be adding huge holes as i think its a little unrealistic. I have added moss and fungus inbetween the bricks but its quite subtle. I do want to dirt up my textures more but i dont want it to appeared tiled so if anybody knows a way of doing it please say! The story thing is a good idea! The church isnt going to be in a hot jungle more of a forest you would find somewhere in the uk.

Roja- Thanks for the examples how did you blend the 2 textures together and not make them have hard edges? The church is at 5039 polygons in the state it is now so with graves and the other models i think i will probably aim for about 8000 tris i will see how it goes

In a side not I have been struggeling to get my model into farcry and the community mainly uses 3ds which is a shame as they cant help me so i might have to end up using the unreal editor

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/final1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/final2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/final3.jpg

FirstManOnMars
08-29-2006, 04:53 AM
The bricks here seem a little monotone compared to the photo reference. You might want to vary the greys and tans of the bricks to match. From the photo I am seeing greys in the outermost faces of brick and more tan in the alcoves. The interior of the restored church would probably be more uniform in color, as it is more protected from the elements.

Looks great so far.

psychojohno
08-30-2006, 08:46 PM
Hey! Cheers Firstmanonmars i will take that into account:) Good news i managed to get it into a far cry map sortof! Here is a picture i have :) only problem is this is the only picture i could get before i broke the map and now it wont open so i will start another one and import again :)

Im having trouble getting the normal map to show for my bricks in farcry so if anybody knows how please say. And i found out how i can dirty it up more, using decals in far cry so i will be doing that soon :)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/farcrychurch.jpg

i have also started on the graves i would like crit on them especially the textures.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/graves.jpg

enjoy

SylvanMist
08-31-2006, 12:30 AM
how did you blend the 2 textures together and not make them have hard edges? The church is at 5039 polygons in the state it is now so with graves and the other models i think i will probably aim for about 8000 tris i will see how it goes

I didn't blend any textures really..I mean, the only 2 diff textures i have are the ones on the faces of the walls(large areas), and the one on the tops and sides that looks like broken bricks.

psychojohno
08-31-2006, 10:47 PM
Thanks Roja i have it fixed now :) And i have finished the graves made a new map imported everything i have so far and most importantly made it rain here are a few shows. I know the ground texture is awfull but i got to figure out how to generate a better one :shrug: And it doesnt look like a forest much right now cos i havnt made my trees yet :D Thats the next job i think. Any tutorials or links on making plants would be great aswell as tips and reffernce sites! I dont want to use the originals as its for portfolio to get into uni and my college project but i might use some of the grass plants as i cant get on with making grass i have tried! Will be ok aslong as i say i didnt create them right?


Anyway is looking more like england as it is raining lol and the sky!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/ingame3.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/ingame2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/dudleystinks/ingame1.jpg

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