Inactive Keyframes

[dobermunk]

There's been a good deal of agreement on this for some time now.
I'd also like to be able to configure the curve editror to function on key selection - ie select multiple keys, delte = selected keys deletyed.
And did I mention the toggle channel activation?

[DMack]

Hi David,

You can do the multiple keys delete! I personaly went on and on and no about this and so did others, and PMG kindly added a few extra commands. You just need to add them to keyboard shortcuts! I was extremely pleased about this. Go check the KeyCommandManager - Delete keys selected etc - They're great (apart from the fact that they don't erase those bl88dt inactive keys!). The only thing I'd like changed in the KF selection is the active (yellow) KF seems to ignore selection/de-selection via bounding box - very annoying.

Thanks David for your support on the inactive keys front! In the past, PMG have been VERY good at listening to this kind of feedback (little yellow frame marker getting larger, delete selected keys etc)

So, anyone else want a 'never make inactive keys' option?

It's called messiah and I am on a crusade to remove them (optionally)!

[PaulNewman]

I use the Hide Inactive Keys option in the Edit Tab's Keyframe Editing options. I personally have no use for them. They clutter the Motion Graph and at times, especially late at night after a long day's work, cause confusion and mistakes.

Or are you guys talking about something else?

[DMack]

Got it in one Paul - That's exactly what we're talking about. Even if you hide them, they're still there, and when they unexpectedly activate (eg dragging dope master cells) they can completely screw up an animation. I've also come across the situation where, when you activate an armature that controls a channel that has an inactive keyframe, the armature jumps to that value - completely frustrating.

The are a complete pain IMO which is why I've started this campaign to have them optionally disabled.

Thanks Paul for your support.....

Anyone else?

[svintaj]

Yes I really hate them!:banghead:
Make them disappear forever!

/ Svante

[DaveW]

I've wanted those things gone since the old LW plugin. I like the idea of muting/unmuting a key, but I don't want to have inactive keys left behind when I'm trying to delete keys.

[catizone]

Banish them to the nether regions....

[DMack]

Three more people!

Thanks Svante, DaveW and catizone!

I'm hopng that if we get enough people here, they'll add the option for the upcoming(?) release.

Any more?

[dobermunk]

You can do the multiple keys delete! I personaly went on and on and no about this and so did others, and PMG kindly added a few extra commands. You just need to add them to keyboard shortcuts! I was extremely pleased about this. Go check the KeyCommandManager - Delete keys selected etc
Thanks! I completely missed this! Will check it out!
The only thing I'd like changed in the KF selection is the active (yellow) KF seems to ignore selection/de-selection via bounding box - very annoying.
It seems a bit odd in general. ie. mini-dopesheet (fantastic feature btw): when you accidentally select a bar too many and want to toggle on / off, well, that's just not normal toggle. I'd like it to work with the (more or less) universal shift to add to selection, control to remove from selection. And same with keys.
Thanks again, DMack!

[DMack]

Completely agree dobermunk regards selection of KF's using standars CRTL and SHIFT to alter selections. I'd also like the active(?) yellow keyframe removed. KF's are either selected or not, the turquoise selected vs the yellow selected KF's just adds complexity without much gain IMO...

Anyway, for now, the greatest productivity boost for me remains removal of the inactive keys....

So....any more votes?

[Bugpoo]

You've got my vote to remove those things! I'd like to see more control over the function curves and being able to change them globally.

[ThomasHelzle]

I don't know if my vote still works, it is soooo old ;-) - I wan't them removed from day one.
pmG was always very proud of their active key idea and changing animation while it is playing, but I would prefer the same as you, keyframes being selected or not, nothing else.
The options for working with multiple curves should also be way more easy to get to.

Make the next update cycle an ANIMATE one. It really needs some close attention.

Kill the edit sphere, make the dopesheet work fluidly, go through all the effects and improve them where they show gimbal lock etc. (look at Pauls thread to see most of the problems), named markers in the timeline, better integration with compose, enhance the compose workflow (it is so cool in the end, but hardly used)...

Cheers,

[DMack]

Make the next update cycle an ANIMATE one. It really needs some close attention.



Completely agree! I've felt a bias towards the renderer recently.

Thanks Bugpoo and Thomas for your votes!

Next person?

[My Fault]

Add my vote as well. They are a hiccup in another wise fantastic workflow.

And another vote as well for transforms like XSI.

[IRONIC3D]

what I've always wanted (ohh sorry, Hi guys :) I usually lurk around here sometimes, hardly of a speaker :)) is four boxes with numbers in them, right in the function Curve area. two of them to control the angle of the curve point handles, and the other two for the amount of stretching (weighted KeyFrame Handles) on each handle. two for each! that is the most productivity ever, it's exact and accurate!

But :) if you want to talk more about workflow, well to be honest this "we have our own way of selecting, deselcting things" is hardly doing anyone any good, and especially for people working on too many packages. and those who are new and coming from a different package. Make things standard. The selection of keys using shift and Ctrl using standard windows mode is the way everyone is doing it, there is not guess work here, no reading manual or changing keyboard shortcuts, it comes natural and everyone guess that's how it should work. and frankly PmG guys, it cuts down allot on the learning curve and struggling with messiah's unique selection schemes.

Messiah has allot of potential, but the problem is the workflow is outdated and stuck with the original design, manythings have changed since then, competitors are constantly changing their workflow to make it streamlined, and instead you guys are trying to add options to make the old design flexiable. the transform sphere is one, although all the other animation softwares (maya, Motionbuilder, max, xsi and lightwave) shaer exactly the same tranformation handles, with the exact gestures and hints around where the mouse clicks, why is that? because they all want to play ball, and they want the transition easier for everyone who wants to use the package! wouldn't be easier to invest some development time on this issue alone?!

Anyway, that's my opnion and regards everyones input on this matter I add my vote ot it also. and pmg, your guys are doing a great work and I know that sometimes we over critisize you guys, but we all come from different packages and we've been in this business for years, so what ever input or workflow suggestion when it's been speakin for it means it's a serious thing. Thanks again for a great program and for your effort guys :)

Cheers

I3D

[DMack]

Thanks 'My Fault' and thanks IRONIC3D.

So two more vote - great stuff. Not a single persaon has come on this thread and even hinted that they sometimes use them/like them. I am sure there are some but most seem to find them ounter-productive - It seems like a VERY strong reason to at least optionally disable them.

Is anyone in touch with the PMG guys? I think they're probably in 'the dungeon' at the moment and it would be great to be able to get this info to them....

Wegg - are you in touch? Anyone else have an inside track to them?

[dobermunk]

Wegg - are you in touch? Anyone else have an inside track to them?

In the false belief that the messiah team would be influencable in this way, I once snuck into the fortified gym in their subterrain development center and absconded with Fori's cat, Dan's sister and Fred's left testicle. Unfortunately, no one seemed to even notice. At any rate, its been four years and all these items are still out on my porch. I suspect that someone else tried the same trick, but was less cautios than I - for Lyle hasn't been heard from for some time now.

I still sit here, dreamily hitting Shift-2, Ctrl-6, etc. hoping to see a new channel appear in my curve editor :-|

[ThomasHelzle]

I think it makes sense to allow for keyframes to be deactivated IF you created them before willingly. That was always a cool feature IMO. What gives us such grieve isn't this, but
1.) the automatic creation of inactive keys where you don't want them.
2.) the complicated way of getting rid of them (if you can at all) and
3.) the other bugs especially in the dopesheet and dopemaster that make them active when moved around etc.

So basically what I would want is:
1.) Fix the bugs that make inactive keyframes such a mess.
2.) Allow the user to switch their automatic creation OFF as a preset.
3.) While you're at it, get rid of the idea of an "active key" in the graph editor altogether. Allow the user to select, delete and move whatever his heart may desire.

6 years are enough to prove that a concept doesn't work for the intended audience - as cool as the creator may think it is.
This is as true for the editsphere as it is for (automatic) inactive keyframes and quite some other things in messiah.
This is nothing bad: Standards aren't there to reduce creativity but to allow the artist to not think about such basic things as hard as about his animation. Even a big package as XSI had to do a whole lot of changes to make it easier for maya artists to use it. And messiah is in an even smaller position to redefine the world of CG.
And if it does - make it something worthwhile. ;-)

Cheers,

[DMack]

So basically what I would want is:
1.) Fix the bugs that make inactive keyframes such a mess.
2.) Allow the user to switch their automatic creation OFF as a preset.
3.) While you're at it, get rid of the idea of an "active key" in the graph editor altogether. Allow the user to select, delete and move whatever his heart may desire.


Quoted for complete agreement.

[dobermunk]

3.) While you're at it, get rid of the idea of an "active key" in the graph editor altogether. Allow the user to select, delete and move whatever his heart may desire.

Yeah. I think its great that you recognize the potential merit of the inactive key concept as well. Could all work really well if it only - err - worked. There are really so many incredible things here, its just the frustration that there are relatively minor things (seen from the user view) that keep them from really flowing. sic: dynamics (setting tweaks), curve deformation (flipping, no up-vector), dynamic-parent-in-place. SO CLOSE!!!

"Play nice with other software" is a major point now a days and being able to carry preferred keyset commands, channel editing habits is important. Just keep things configurable.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yes, my fury isn't targeted towards messiah as a whole - far from it - but towards exactly what you describe: that little crappy stuff that makes messiah such a major pain to use in the end and the stubborn-ness that keeps pmG defending those wrong, old-time decisions for so long now.

And for everybody using several packages, it isn't a solution to "get used to it".
You can't, you won't, why should you?
It just leads to people using other packages.
Simple as that.

It isn't a problem to be wrong, but to be proud of it ;-)

Cheers,

[DMack]

Ha! I remember posting a while back - a thread called something like 'The little things' about all the really small things that never the less made Animate sooooo much harder to use and sometimes downright frustrating. In the end, several of the items were addressed, like the tiny yellow current frame marker getting bigger (that in itself sped me up tremendously!) and also the ability to box lasso multiple KF's and delete them all at once. So my hope here is that at least the inactive keys (and the active key for good measure) can be removed and we'll be a step closer.

[private]

Make it happen!

[stooch]

you have my sword.

[chikega]

and my axe! http://www.3ddmd.com/gif/sword2.gif

[dobermunk]

<darth-vader-ike voice>
And my pen. My wacom pen!

[Bugpoo]

I agree with everyone's comments here and I know we only say these things because we know how great a tool messiah could be in our pipeline. When I animate, there are a small set of tool requirements that I carry from package to package and because I have to shift gears with messiah, I often end up using something else. I would really like to use it more, but after coming home from work there's not much time to re-think my workflow. Sorry if I've offended anyone from the team.

[DMack]

Yeah - I hope I'm not offending too. It really is not my intention. My only intention is to improve the software. I've said it in the past - I think if people didn't REALLY REALLY like Messiah:Animate in the main part, they wouldn't care two hoots if certain features were counter productive or less than 100% efficient BUT, the people here REALLY do seem to be quiet passionate about the tool and therefore frustrations tend to be hightened!

I seem to have raised something that has overwhelming support so it would be a shame if it can't be implemented.:shrug:

[DMack]

and my axe!

Hey! You're a beta tester, can you lob a scroll with this thread on it down into the dungeon where Lyle etc work? Be a shame for the next update/version to come out without this implemented....

[dobermunk]

Hey! You're a beta tester, can you lob a scroll with this thread on it down into the dungeon where Lyle etc work? Be a shame for the next update/version to come out without this implemented....
What do you think the axe is for!?
Here, ForiFori....

[DMack]

dobermunk,

I have just one thing to 'say'

You are....... :twisted:

:)

[dobermunk]

:D
I do hope Fori, Dan, Fred and Taron feel the love behind the beating.

edit:
and Lyle. Wherever he be.

[DMack]

What's all this talk about Lyle not being around?

[dobermunk]

Taron mentioned this a while back. Maybe someone from pmG can comment?

That's a part of why I'd like to say - I have a good deal of understanding that the team is reshuffling resources etc. I still would urgently like to see animate receive a bout of attention, but bring a good deal of patience to the mix.

David

[DMack]

What?!?! Dan, Lyle and Fori were the only programmers as far as I can see. Trying to code a full animation package and rendering package with two people? I wish they'd stuck with animation only. Far too much for three people, let alone two!

When did this happen?

I wonder if this has something to do with the talks they were in? Has anything been hinted at about this? It's been a while now since that post regards direction etc.

[dobermunk]

Taron's been actively coding as well. I don't view this that critically. I do wish the team would be more open about this though, as their capacities determine the rate at which the software can develop.

[DMack]

Just makes me a little jittery! Didn't realise Taron coded aswell? Also, there's Fred I forgot about. How long ago did Lyle leave?

So, do you know anything about the 'interested party' that was mentioned or has that faded away?

[dobermunk]

I don't know if Fred codes. I was under the impression that he's more for documentation and structure. As for 'interested parties', I think they have them regularly on Fridays. But the beer ain't cheap. (yuckyuck). Sorry - anything I could contribute would be speculation.

[DMack]

Well, you seem to know more than me! Go on, speculate away for me! Where did you hear about Lyle leaving?

[dobermunk]

Taron mentioned it in one of the forums. Maybe on the mailing lists. I forget where exactly. Anyone else? I really don't know more than that.
Perhaps its called for to praise Taron's handling of the communications - I know it wasn't easy for him to jump in and take over, but after a bumpy start he's been doing a great job!

[DMack]

Is this the most active Messiah forum or is the yahoo one more active? I've always liked it here - the best forum and best moderated I know of (I am being specific to the messiah part of CG Talk).

[DMack]

So what do you think the best way is to get this community request to PMG?

Anyone in touch with Taron?

Or do you think an email to support?

[dobermunk]

So what do you think the best way is to get this community request to PMG?

Well, you've just hit on a major hiccup in the pmG development cycle.
Email 'em, post her - ou just have to wait for them to come up for air.

Then again, someone here mentioned an axe... ;-)

edit: "her - ou" = 'em - you
way too much coffee in these here veins!

[chikega]

Is this true, Lyle left? I had no idea ... I've been out of it for a while. :(

[ThomasHelzle]

I was in touch with Taron some time ago, but didn't hear from him for some time now.

Actually, the widely accepted way to contact the messiah is praying :bowdown: :shrug: :wavey: :thumbsup:

But sending Taron an email with a link to this thread may just work - see his homepage taron.de for the address.

May the force be with us on this quest ;)

Cheers,

[DMack]

Thanks Thomas, I'll do that.

Would be such a shame to not have this addressed for the next release!

[dobermunk]

Thanks Thomas, I'll do that.
Cool. Say a prayer for me too. :thumbsup:

[kvernon]

I'm for it too, trash the inactive keyframes. They get my panties in a bunch! LOL!

Towards Lyle, I too had no idea he was gone. That does put even more of an emotional strain on the group. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Will pmG prevail? I guess we stay tuned to the bat channel to find out.

Ciao,

Kelly

[dobermunk]

Will pmG prevail?

Hehe. I hear that in the "same-bat-channel" tone of delivery...
Just to be clear: pmG was against the ropes about half-a-year ago. I see no reason for pessimism now, now just pressure for this or that feature, and - pleeeaaasse - a round of attention to animate. Taron's Taron - he promises a bit more than he can deliver, but he delivers other things. The others are working away too. I'm confident. More team members? If it helps them, great. I have no idea what their internal situation is.
Just wanted to say this. Some of the comments are a bit too dark imo.

[DMack]

Yep, I got a reply from Taron. I sensed high confidence. They are hard at work as far as I can tell - Just hope some/most of it is on Animate rather than the renderer!

Regards the Inactive Keyframes removal/Optional removal, I'm still waiting to hear from him.....I think he got slightly sidetracked by all the talk about Lyle on the thread!

I genuinely sense that things are moving in the right direction. Time will tell.....

[DMack]

Taron has said that the inactive keys are currently being 'brainstormed'. I think they run pretty deep into the application and so need to be dealt with carefully.

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