will ae ever go node-based

[stevester1]

I was a bit surprised when ae was significantly revised for v7 there was really
no discussion of a node based workflow. In a sense--this would violate the
photoshop ui paradigm--although that could be preserved in a parallel approach
like combustion--which is sort of semi nodal.

I doubt AE will go node based. For a few reasons (this is just my opinion, could be 100 % wrong and vice versa). I'm pretty sure AE is known for being "the layer based app", it's like if houdini droped its proceduralism to go to layer based content creation. And wouldn't switching the app to a node based system require a butt load of coding, I mean from re-creating the whole gui to coding the app itself... I dunno. Also think of all the adjustements people would have to make. In the most part, alot of people that are used to layer based have more trouble switching over to node based (from what I hear) so wouldnt that make em lose money?

Anyways, just my meaningless 2 cents, but than again, I would love to be able to edit directly in the comp flow chart.

[scrimski]

Node based? Don't think so, but editing the flow chart would be great. Actually I almost never use it.

[stevester1]

Node based? Don't think so, but editing the flow chart would be great. Actually I almost never use it.

bah, same here, it's pretty useless if you cant edit things, although sometimes, when making a tutorial or something for friends, ill send them a screenshot of the flowchart, especially when it's very complicated, always got giggles outta that.

[beenyweenies]

I was a bit surprised when ae was significantly revised for v7 there was really
no discussion of a node based workflow. In a sense--this would violate the
photoshop ui paradigm--although that could be preserved in a parallel approach
like combustion--which is sort of semi nodal.

I seem to remember hearing a VFX podcast interview with some AE developers who were asked this very question, and despite the usual non-committal runaround, they indicated there were no plans for node based AE. The reason is clear - the majority of the user base is used to the current AE workflow, and once software is 7 versions deep the flexibility to make such dramatic changes is nil.

I'm sure part of it has to do with competition, as well. Combustion is node-based, as is Shake (and Inferno, but that's on a whole other level) and for AE to go node-based would be seen as a capitulation to the competition's way of doing things. In fact, AE is one of the few professional grade, layer-based compositing apps on the market, which gives them a huge advantage when it comes to the learning curve.

If it were up to me, I would love to see the flow chart introduce even basic nodal workflow. It could be immensely handy for setting up more complex effect chains and visually building out nested comp structures quickly. Plus it would open the door to easier effects, such as setting up your own keyers.

[mackdadd]

Combustion is node-based

i remember it being layer based. it has a nice nodal viewport, but i think it is essentially layer based.

anyway, i hope they don't change it. if someone wants node based, it's out there for them. i LOVE that AE is one of the only, and certainly the best, layer based compositing solutions. if someone wants to be a professional compositor, it'd be a good idea to learn both, although not many of the major effects houses use layer based compositing. there seems to be a bit of a stigma against it, for some reason. myself, i believe its the artist that makes the difference. every compositing program does the same thing when it really gets down to it. how many different ways can you apply lightwrap or adjust black levels? who cares if it's on a layer or out of a node? not me. the resulting frame is the thing that matters, what ends up on screen.

I love after effects and its layers. :thumbsup:

[JohnnyRandom]

I like the layers too but when you have nested comps, on nested comps, on nested comps, ect. it would be nice to be able to arrange them in the flow chart...I open the thing every now and again and wish I could flop things around...

yep pretty sure, as said, Combustion is layer-based its just has a workable node-based view.

I tell ya trying to learn that thing in thirty-day increments with every new release is a biatch, still trying to decide if I like it enough to buy it (the keyer is nice + nodal workspace is a plus, not that i've had much a chance to put it through its paces)

[shadowedge]

although it may be far off perhaps Adobe will reconsider it in future versions, depending on the demand and the need. I personally have been used to the layer type workflow, but for cross app users it would indeed be a great idea to include an alternate layout or screen for a node based workflow...

each to his own I suppose. :wise:

[DoubleSupercool]

I have been using shake 4 for about 3 months now and it is strange (for me) to go back to layer-based apps. The flexibility of nodes, being able to file out of a node X number of times, then back in on themselves and to other branches while easily being able to see what is happening, becomes very noticeable very quickly.

I can't remember where it was (pretty sure it was on D2's nuke website) where they had a PDF showing how some operations are pretty much impossible or needlessly complicated in layer based apps compared to node based apps. I think the desctiption was that AE/c* etc are essentially "time-based" while node compositing apps are "space-based", if that makes sense.

That is, there are a lot of things that are heavily reliant on the timeline that are much quicker/easier to do in AE, but general stuff is easier in shake. Still, horses for courses and a good artist will try and make themselves familiar with as many tools as possible.

[Mylenium]

I have been using shake 4 for about 3 months now and it is strange (for me) to go back to layer-based apps. The flexibility of nodes, being able to file out of a node X number of times, then back in on themselves and to other branches while easily being able to see what is happening, becomes very noticeable very quickly.

That is specific to Shake. Other node-based apps (not limited to compositing) don't allow looping back on their own nodes. Well, not without digging into their underlying scripting routines at least.


I think the desctiption was that AE/c* etc are essentially "time-based" while node compositing apps are "space-based", if that makes sense.

If you are refering to nodes operating in an abstract mathematical space, that may be partially true, but see beyond the technobabble. Even node-based apps are strictly time-dependent. True, in most of them you don't see a timeline until you want to, but even they need time as a trigger to start their frame-by-frame evaluations, be it just for computational mathematics being the basis of everything.

Mylenium

[Mylenium]

although it may be far off perhaps Adobe will reconsider it in future versions, depending on the demand and the need.

There is no serious demand and technically there is no need. I don't see any Adobe app becoming nodal in the near future. You need to consider the bigger picture: Does Adobe want to piss off its customers by breaking their workflow in one single app of their entire portfolio? I seriously doubt it. Why would they want to honk off Encore and Premiere users as well as get AE out of the game for Flash users (another layer based app now owned by Adobe I would like to remind everyone)? It's simply illogical from a business POV. The best we can possibly get is a nodalized workflow as in combustion* - mainly disguised by layer-based principles, but there for you when you want to.

Mylenium

[DoubleSupercool]

That is specific to Shake. Other node-based apps (not limited to compositing) don't allow looping back on their own nodes. Well, not without digging into their underlying scripting routines at least.

If you are refering to nodes operating in an abstract mathematical space, that may be partially true, but see beyond the technobabble. Even node-based apps are strictly time-dependent. True, in most of them you don't see a timeline until you want to, but even they need time as a trigger to start their frame-by-frame evaluations, be it just for computational mathematics being the basis of everything.

Mylenium

Sorry, I meant to say that you can have multiple branches OUT of a node and they can connect again later in the flow. So you can have one FILEIN driving dozens of branches that can all come back together later. Yes you can do nested comps/layers, but the flow/script paradigm makes this a lot easier.

Of course node-based appls are time-dependent, but I spend far less time in the timeline in shake than in AE. It seems to me that in AE the timeline is the the major focus as it is directly linked to the layers. Gahhh, I am not explaining this well ;)

[mackdadd]

but I spend far less time in the timeline in shake than in AE. It seems to me that in AE the timeline is the the major focus as it is directly linked to the layers.

well, of course - this is where you work in AE. the flow chart is where you work in shake.

and bringing in a fileset and pulling a bunch of branches off it is exactly like bringing something into the project bin in AE and then using it in a bunch of timelines. the program still only brings the file in once, it's just referencing it in all the branches/timelines.

this is the "which came first, chicken or egg" debate, it could go on forever. i use both everyday, and all that really matters to me is what the frames look like when i hit "render". if i used node, timelines, or a hammer to get it to look good, then swell.

[DoubleSupercool]

As I said, you can do the same/similar things with layers, but with complicated scripts I find the flowchart style apps quicker to work with/easier to keep track of.

Sure it makes sense to learn both styles. I say styles, because once you have got your head around the concept of nodes vs layers, then you will be able to apply that to fusion, nuke etc. It took me about a week to get into the "node mindset" after using layers for so long. Again, for me, nodes/flowcharts make a lot more sense as I can instantly see exactly what is going on in my script, but one downside (with shake) is having to use multiple nodes when you can do the same thing in AE with just one function.

[Mylenium]

Again, for me, nodes/flowcharts make a lot more sense as I can instantly see exactly what is going on in my script, but one downside (with shake) is having to use multiple nodes when you can do the same thing in AE with just one function.

Well, there has a price to be paid and that is one other reason why I don't see AE becoming nodal that much - you wouldn't want to burden your average AE user (not speaking of guys like us, more like editors who use AE only once a month...) with the abstractness of nodes.

Mylenium

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.