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View Full Version : check out the new intel mac desktops. :-)


monovich
08-07-2006, 05:19 PM
being revealed live right now (as of when I'm writing this).

dual dual core! :p drool.

http://www.macrumors.com/ is a live feed from the keynote at WWDC.

edit: mmmm 1U dual woodcrest 3.0ghz!

available today... that's a change from the norm...

liquidik
08-07-2006, 05:23 PM
yeahhhh super duper cool

my cc is shaking!

G

jecal
08-07-2006, 06:25 PM
pics from the keynote :

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/07/live-from-wwdc-2006-steve-jobs-keynote/

(updated regularly)

almux
08-07-2006, 06:26 PM
My next buy... Just waiting for november.
Just hope Autodesk shows some more enthousiasm developing Maya for Mac... Otherways I'll have to turn towards another "high end" 3D app!

nuclearfessel
08-07-2006, 06:38 PM
Apple.com has been update with an image of the new machine and it now has its own page: http://www.apple.com/macpro/

the apple store is taking forever to come up...

rebo
08-07-2006, 06:51 PM
The leopard features didnt seem that great, was hoping for more on the virtualization front. Its also a bit funny they are accusing MS of copying them when they are inturn ripping Quicksilver :D

Despite this as an OS it looks far more impressive than Vista/Longhorn ever did.

ThomasMahler
08-07-2006, 06:52 PM
A new tower would've been nice. Where are those crazy Apple hardware guys from back then? I mean, remember the Cube, the G4 and so on... nowadays, Apple is so 'traditional' again. The Macbooks look like the Powerbooks, the current iMac isn't nearly as sexy as the iMac G4, the Mac Pro looks exactly like the PowerMac... It's getting boring.

Leopard looks damn sexy, though.

LiquidMetal
08-07-2006, 06:59 PM
Im trying to see how much it is to configure a Mac Pro but it takes forever to load!Looks awesome!Wonder if there going to update the MBP later.

1000101
08-07-2006, 07:07 PM
A new tower would've been nice. Where are those crazy Apple hardware guys from back then? I mean, remember the Cube, the G4 and so on... nowadays, Apple is so 'traditional' again. The Macbooks look like the Powerbooks, the current iMac isn't nearly as sexy as the iMac G4, the Mac Pro looks exactly like the PowerMac... It's getting boring.

Leopard looks damn sexy, though.

They are very recognizable brands. I imagine in a year or so when people have truly forgotten powerbooks and powermacs that they'll start playing with more new designs.

Also; posting before a "RAH APPLE SUCKS" post. I'm shocked!

pixelmonk
08-07-2006, 07:28 PM
Apple.com has been update with an image of the new machine and it now has its own page: http://www.apple.com/macpro/

the apple store is taking forever to come up...

wow ummm looks like the old machine.

enygma
08-07-2006, 07:31 PM
Wow... I'm actually quite impressed with Apples offering here. Almost makes my Quad G5 menial in comparison... :D

Well, not quite, but it would be nice to have the couple extra hard drive slots. I didn't realize I could burn through so much hard drive space myself. I have 1TB in my system right now.

I am quite impressed with how Apple is providing almost complete customizability of the parts in the system. Not offering 3 or 4 different models, but just a Mac Pro that you can fit whatever processors you want in it, with whatever else you want. A step in the right direction I say. Now if only they would do that with the rest of their products.

Also wonder where Conroe is going to end up in Apples lineup. iMac? Mac (assuming they are lining themselves up for such a product)?

monovich
08-07-2006, 07:44 PM
Im trying to see how much it is to configure a Mac Pro but it takes forever to load!Looks awesome!Wonder if there going to update the MBP later.

I specced up to a dual 3.0 /w the fastest available video card under the FX4500 and it was around $3500. That was only 1gb of ram, but who is dumb enough to buy ram from apple anyway?

ihavenofish
08-07-2006, 08:05 PM
the price update on their config tool is broken. $2500 + 800 + 1650 for the quadro dont = $3500 :)

that asside... i priced it up against buying parts on newegg... and for the first time in history i think.. the mac isnt overpriced. in fact, if you dont buy their ram or hard drives.. its THE SAME as building yourself.. but you get a far prettier chassis.

only big drawback is the limited video card choices.. ultra high end, or ultra low end.. or in the middle an ati card.

anyhow... wonder if it will run xp64 :-P

monovich
08-07-2006, 08:24 PM
under the FX4500

note the "under" ;)

1000101
08-07-2006, 08:25 PM
anyhow... wonder if it will run xp64 :-P

With bootcamp it should run just fine. This thing's powered by the woodcrest Xeon which last I read was a 64 bit CPU.

boutwell
08-07-2006, 08:45 PM
I see they knocked another $500 off the 30" cinemas. Getting closer to affording one.

I found this little nugget under 'More Info Memory' while pricing out a Pro Mac, Nice attempt to scare you into buying their memory:

'Please note: Apple created a more robust thermal specification for the Mac Pro FB-DIMM heat sinks that provide more efficient cooling than many other FB-DIMMs. These FB-DIMMs require less airflow to stay cool and allow the internal fans to spin at slower speeds, improving system acoustics. FB-DIMMs made by other manufacturers that do not include a sufficient heat sink may cause the fans to run faster (and louder) or the memory chips to run faster (and louder) or the memory chips to run slower so as not to overheat.'

In other words, 'Buy your memory from us or your new Pro Mac may explode!'

cresshead
08-07-2006, 09:12 PM
wonder if it will run xp64 ???


yeah got me thinking about running max9 64bit....

could be a good idea!

anyone know if it's possible??

1000101
08-07-2006, 10:14 PM
wonder if it will run xp64 ???


yeah got me thinking about running max9 64bit....

could be a good idea!

anyone know if it's possible??



anyhow... wonder if it will run xp64 :-P



With bootcamp it should run just fine. This thing's powered by the woodcrest Xeon which last I read was a 64 bit CPU.


Chances are good!

I'd still compare to price of an equivellent system from Dell, HP, or BoXX. I'd also take into account if you need the sort of support where you want a guy to come on site Apple won't be able to provide that.

If the price is good and the support is acceptable though it should be a great machine. Apple doesn't care what you run on it as long as it's their hardware.

ihavenofish
08-07-2006, 10:46 PM
the mac is considerably cheaper than a boxx 8300 with the same spec.
support wise.. well, its apple, so you wont really have any worth mentioning.

the only worry about xp64 will be any platform specific drivers. their motherboard does seem to look relatively standard feature wise though, so stock intel drivers might do the trick.

macsupremacist
08-07-2006, 11:00 PM
A little off topic, but apple's site seemed to be making a big deal about being 64bit. Do you guys know if the GUI along with command line processes are 64bit, or if it's like Tiger, where the GUI is 32bit and command line processes are 64?

beaker
08-07-2006, 11:16 PM
A little off topic, but apple's site seemed to be making a big deal about being 64bit. Do you guys know if the GUI along with command line processes are 64bit, or if it's like Tiger, where the GUI is 32bit and command line processes are 64?Yea, they provide 64 bit Carbon and Cocoa libraries. F'ing yay! Also Objective C 2.0, whatever that means. These work on both PPC and Intel, so we will be able to get full 64 bit apps for older G5's.

That was one of the biggest things stopping people from providing 64 bit apps because with Tiger people had to make a hack with a 32 bit front end making calls to a commandline 64 bit backend.

Per-Anders
08-07-2006, 11:43 PM
The machine looks very impressive and not badly priced at all. I may finally be convinced to stump up the cash and grab one, which says a lot as i wouldn't even have considered a Mac as an option a couple of months back.

Support wise, with my past experiences of Apple they've not been great, however they've still been better than the other PC companies I've dealt with (Dell, Sony etc), and at least if you're in America then you do get American tech support (I know that may be opening a can of worms, but in my practical experience local tech support is always better than overseas), also you can just walk into any Apple store with your machine and they're knowledgeable and will fix it while you wait which is a definite bonus.

I'm very interested to see how things will progress with 10.5, and how well it will run XP64. So if anyone does get one running Bootcamp with win64 please report back!

cresshead
08-07-2006, 11:49 PM
i'd like a new mac mainly to run windows xp and 3dsmax9 [when it arrives..i'm on autodesk subscription] also lightwave 9 [just got it] and maybe speed edit when it ships...i also currently have a g4mac mini so would be using the apple osx as well for some apps/tasks and would probably go get shake to replace my windows combustion 2.0

certainly is interesting to see dell dual xeon precision costing around £1500 more that a identicle spec mac.

Rhs_CG
08-07-2006, 11:58 PM
I think running apps like Max and Maya under windows will be alot more stable when OS X 10.5 is released. And the Mac Pro has some sweet guts on the inside.

I wonder if other video cards will work now, at least under windows. Perhaps one could use the Apple video card under OS X, and buy a less expensive Quadro FX, put it in another PCI-E bay, and use that one under Windows. Hmmm.....

monovich
08-08-2006, 12:08 AM
Apple support is terrible if you don't have applecare. If you cough up the $300 (or whatever it is) they more or less turn into saints. I've never bought applecare, and never would. My wife bought it on her PowerBook before she met me and almost three years into her applecare her mobo and drive failed and they not only fixed it, they upgraded her to the latest and greatest powerbook. I'm sure they only did the latest because the old stuff wasn't around anymore, but it was a nice kick aside from the 1k saved on the mobo if we had to replace it ourselves.


Nobody has said it yet, but I'd really like to see Shake run on one of these. $500 for shake + one of these MacPros would be a killer high end compositing box.

Per-Anders
08-08-2006, 12:16 AM
I did some calling, and according to apple sales the machine can run any PCI-E graphics card now (no need for bios hacks), so it seems it's finally a standard (if nice) PC.

JDex
08-08-2006, 12:21 AM
I did some calling, and according to apple sales the machine can run any PCI-E graphics card now (no need for bios hacks), so it seems it's finally a standard (if nice) PC.

If that is indeed the case... wow, great news.

beaker
08-08-2006, 12:37 AM
I did some calling, and according to apple sales the machine can run any PCI-E graphics card now (no need for bios hacks), so it seems it's finally a standard (if nice) PC.Yes, but I wonder if your limited to only the cards that Apple sells? Will a 7900 for example work in these machine because Apple only has drivers in OSX for the 7300&7800.

enygma
08-08-2006, 01:16 AM
I'll have to second in on the graphics card front. I don't think I'll be able to do a Mac Pro for a while unless it is a second workstation. I would like to hear of anyone testing any PCI Express graphics card on the system and see if it works out.

angel
08-08-2006, 03:05 AM
Damn, it makes me want to go back to Mac, there is that graphics card issue keeps me on a PC.

fahr
08-08-2006, 04:24 AM
I wonder if Leopard has managed to speed up OpenGL to be closer to Windows performance. Right now its noticeably slower than their corresponding apps in Windows. Not a major deal-breaker, since openGL generally is far more stable and reliable in OSX than in Windows (In my experience, at least), but more speed is never a bad thing. ;)

Lone Deranger
08-08-2006, 07:11 AM
Wow.. where have all the trolls gone? Looks like this latest gem from Apple finally shut them up. :)

Anyway, the waiting game is now for Leopard. 64-bit though these machines are, with Tiger still on there it won't make much of a difference. I'll get one once Leopard comes pre-installed on them.

btw.. nice to see Luxology's modo up there on the Apple benchmarks. Such are the rewards for proper coding practices. :)

Vaejh
08-08-2006, 07:21 AM
There is also a leopard preview that was posted on the 7th just in case it was not mentioned...

arvid
08-08-2006, 07:22 AM
oh boy, if that isn't a sect, i dunno what is :scream:

yinako
08-08-2006, 07:31 AM
Is anyone able to watch that wwdc stream on quicktime site? Or is it down now? I can't seem to watch it.

BillSpradlin
08-08-2006, 08:03 AM
Still doesn't make me say "Wow I need to go buy a Mac". Mac's are cool, but personally I have no use for one. Windows and Linux have served me well over the past 12 years and I just don't see any good reason to switch.

parallax
08-08-2006, 08:56 AM
Wow.. where have all the trolls gone? Looks like this latest gem from Apple finally shut them up. :)

Anyway, the waiting game is now for Leopard. 64-bit though these machines are, with Tiger still on there it won't make much of a difference. I'll get one once Leopard comes pre-installed on them.

btw.. nice to see Luxology's modo up there on the Apple benchmarks. Such are the rewards for proper coding practices. :)

Patience. They are bringing their dual-quad-cores within a few months.

almux
08-08-2006, 09:33 AM
oh boy, if that isn't a sect, i dunno what is :scream:

;) ;) ;) The whole world acts sectarian since human's begining ;) ;) ;)

Yet... can't but have to wait buying that one!
What d'you think would be better for 3D AND compositing:
1) 2 X 2.6 dual and 8Gb dimm
or
2) 2 X 3 dual and 4Gb dimm
??

PS When you see Apple's customer's service rated as is... gee... other PC manufacture's must be real poor! (Can't say much... last 11 years I use Macs... I never had to fix great harm on any... But components are now standart ones and though, probably, more defective than the older specific ones. Maybe Macusers will have to learn to become more patient with more fragile machines?
Therefore I'll probably will spend extra € for Applecare this time...)

Byla
08-08-2006, 10:49 AM
I wonder if Leopard has managed to speed up OpenGL to be closer to Windows performance. Right now its noticeably slower than their corresponding apps in Windows. Not a major deal-breaker, since openGL generally is far more stable and reliable in OSX than in Windows (In my experience, at least), but more speed is never a bad thing. ;)


OpenGL speed has been on pair with Windows since the latest bigger upgrate of the existing OSx.

See the cinebench benchmarks. (http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/cinebench/top.php)

skello
08-08-2006, 11:02 AM
500 bucks of the cinema displays means there's a new one a' coming ....'scuse me while i drool !!!

mustique
08-08-2006, 11:29 AM
Cute!
More hardware choices (lower end Quadros and WD Raptor HDDs)
and MacPro would be the ultimate machine. :)

almux
08-08-2006, 01:18 PM
Patience. They are bringing their dual-quad-cores within a few months.
This is real good news!
CPUs are no more solden to the motherboard = I will upgrade on new dual-quad-cores around september 2007! ;)

pixelmonk
08-08-2006, 01:47 PM
Wow.. where have all the trolls gone? Looks like this latest gem from Apple finally shut them up. :)

Anyway, the waiting game is now for Leopard. 64-bit though these machines are, with Tiger still on there it won't make much of a difference. I'll get one once Leopard comes pre-installed on them.

btw.. nice to see Luxology's modo up there on the Apple benchmarks. Such are the rewards for proper coding practices. :)

nah... the specs are finally up to that with other workstations currently out there for Linux and PC. good to see apple is finally catching up.

spirozero
08-08-2006, 01:59 PM
Patience. They are bringing their dual-quad-cores within a few months.

You're talking about the Kentfield chip?

Would the only benefit be one of price?

Slightly faster, perhaps?

Lone Deranger
08-08-2006, 02:08 PM
Clovertown actually..

One of the interesting developments of this whole multi-core evolution would be render-license pricing. Several big name renderers out there are charging per chip rather than per core. That alone could save a fair few pennies.
How much faster Clovertown is compared to Woodcrest remains open for speculation. I'm sure the current implementation won't guarantee a 2x scale speed.

You're talking about the Kentfield chip?

Would the only benefit be one of price?

Slightly faster, perhaps?

ihavenofish
08-08-2006, 03:22 PM
"500 bucks of the cinema displays means there's a new one a' coming ....'scuse me while i drool !!!{"

actually, those ARE new ones. all the panels have been updated to the latest LG toys. 20, 23 and 30 are all new. whats frigtening is that even those are on par with other vendors with regards to price.

apple seems to be really agressive with this machine. they probably aim to convert over a lot of pc users who wont even use osx on it.

later

spurcell
08-08-2006, 03:59 PM
good to see apple getting more competitive with their pricing. Of course, with standard intel hardware, how could they NOT?

Since my shop uses all windows based software, I have no plans to pick one up. Though I found it interesting to see a coworker purchase one of those new 17" screen laptops. He installed the bootcamp and windows and had himself up and running our software in no time. I asked him when he planned on using the macOS if he will always be running windows to use our software. He kinda shrugged and said probably not alot. I then asked why he even purchased the mac then. He replied, that it looks cool. :shrug:

So honest question: I thought people bought macs, because they specifically designed their proprietary hardware to run flawlessly with their software. So whats the motivation now? Final Cut Pro?

Oh, and hows the file interopability between the windows and macOS when installed on same system? I heard a rumor its pretty sketchy.

enygma
08-08-2006, 04:09 PM
Oh, and hows the file interopability between the windows and macOS when installed on same system? I heard a rumor its pretty sketchy.
OS X has NTFS read support and read write support for FAT32.

Windows XP doesn't support HFS/HFS+ natively, but the Mac partition can be mounted into Windows using an app called MacDrive (http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive6/).

mech7
08-08-2006, 04:31 PM
it looks kinda ugly for a mac :D

pixelmonk
08-08-2006, 04:38 PM
apple seems to be really agressive with this machine. they probably aim to convert over a lot of pc users who wont even use osx on it.

later

sad for them. I'd rather go cheaper with a Boxx or equiv vendor.

pixelmonk
08-08-2006, 04:39 PM
it looks kinda ugly for a mac :D

Apple hasn't really done anything stylish in years. Rehash.. push to the masses.

ihavenofish
08-08-2006, 04:56 PM
originally, when apple started to "unravel" buy switching to intel, then allowing windows... i figured first they were idiots... then that they were gonna disco their hardware line.. then maybe disco osx.. leaving them with ipods and itunes. which would not have really been a bad move.

but i think they maybe arent idiots and have hit on something that until recently wasnt possible in the pc market.

quality.

for as long as.. well, forever, the pc market has been driven by faster cheaper faster cheaper. there has never been much room for design,fashion, or product quality that stands out. it just didnt sell. companies were losing sales because a competitor was $5 cheaper. pc cases an power supplies were an after thought, and made a cheaply as humany possible.

but now.. generally, what we have available is quite honestly "fast enough". for the average user, or even the moderate power user.. the speed jumps of late are little incentive to buy anything new. instead people seem to be spending more money.. alot of moeny.. on things like machined aluminium chassis.. super high quality power supllies, silent cooling and things that will make their machine unique.

people are actually keeping their machines long enough to justify the price of those things. i think apple saw that there is now room for a "high end" pc. one that not only was the fastest, latest and greatest, but also designed well, stylish, and unique. starting with cinema displays, and moving to the new notebooks, theyve proven that even pc users are happy to pay a small premium for something unique and stylish.

now thyve got the task of converting the workstation crowd... people who have never been interested in pretty if it meant more cost or less performane. theyre trying to level the feild by having no more cost, and no less performance. and i think it may well work.

the only market left is going to be the gaming enthusiats. if they can pop out a "not so pro" mac with a conroe chip at the same price point as an enthusiast pc.. id say their transition will be complete, and successful into a PC manufacturer with several added cards to make other companies scramble to play catch up.

apple sees that osx has its strengths, and windows has its strengths, and now has the ability to apeal to the people who can adapt to both, and the crowd that wil never switch from either.

this is why there are no trolls in this post. because unlike pc haters, mac haters arent trolls. thyve always had real justification to hate macs. they might not anymore.

later

ihavenofish
08-08-2006, 05:02 PM
"sad for them. I'd rather go cheaper with a Boxx or equiv vendor"

with an eqivalent config, a boxx 8300 is $500-$1400 MORE than the mac. the mac is in fact the same price as a scratch build, with a much lessar chassis and motherboard.

so if price is you gripe.. thats out the window :)
if you think the case is ugly or mundane.. thats fine.. but.. um.. the boxx?

ok, im done defending apple. i feel all icky. :)

Thalaxis
08-08-2006, 05:21 PM
I did some calling, and according to apple sales the machine can run any PCI-E graphics card now (no need for bios hacks), so it seems it's finally a standard (if nice) PC.

Good... that means that the only difference between the macs and everything else is the OS. It also explains their most competitive pricing in years :)

agreenster
08-08-2006, 05:26 PM
So honest question: I thought people bought macs, because they specifically designed their proprietary hardware to run flawlessly with their software. So whats the motivation now? Final Cut Pro?

I'll just reiterate what ihavenofish said: quality. 6 months ago I switched to windows/PC laptop from a powerbook (because of no Universal Binaries for Maya, come ON Autodesk, god) and its been riddled with problems (even after replacing it the first 2 weeks of use) The screen has light leaking problems, the battery life sucks, and its as heavy as a brick. If I keep it plugged in, on my desk, in darkish lighting, its a great desktop replacement laptop. The identical spec'd MacBook Pro is light, has long battery life, and a beautiful screen. All of my powerbooks Ive had throughout the years (3) have all been perfect, and Ive sold them for over 1000 dollars even after having them for more than 2 years. They just last, and are dependable.

Ill probably switch back eventually.

boutwell
08-08-2006, 05:28 PM
Patience. They are bringing their dual-quad-cores within a few months.They could release infinite core Mac Pros next week that are capable of running the Googleplex, but until Adobe releases 64 bit UB's for Creative Suite, Flash, etc, and high end vendors like Autodesk do the same with their 3D Mac ports such as Maya, I don't think it matters much how many cores they throw in there. The exception of course are video editors using Final Cut and Shake UB's everyday, but even then they are limited by Tiger. When Leopard arrives with full 64 bit capabilities, and Adobe and Autodesk (just examples) write their software to handle 64 bit computing on a Mac Pro, then we'll be in business.

Mac Pro's look strong, and I want one, but when the likes of Photoshop and Maya still run like they are on a PowerBook, that's a deal breaker.

Just my opinion.

cresshead
08-08-2006, 05:30 PM
to me it's looking like the ideal personal computer [windows AND mac]

i can run 3dsmax on it [maybe even 64bit max9]
i can run all my windows apps on it including lightwave/combustion/corel/studiomx/
i can run all the ilife suite on the mac side...
i can buy/run shake for mac rather than upgrading ym combustion from 2 to 4..
i can run speededit when it ships! [windows]

i only need buy ram for 1 pc rathe than for a mac AND a pc...
i canuse all the hard drives i have [external]
i can use upto 4 monitors!....i think i'll use 2 though!

and it's £1500 cheaper than a dell..............err...del!..you need to drop your price!

Gendou
08-08-2006, 06:03 PM
InDesign CS3 has been confirmed as a UB app with a few new features mentioned.
Link from AppleInsider:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1773
However, Quark's new collaboration feature is pretty sweet.

spurcell
08-08-2006, 08:02 PM
I'll just reiterate what ihavenofish said: quality. 6 months ago I switched to windows/PC laptop from a powerbook (because of no Universal Binaries for Maya, come ON Autodesk, god) and its been riddled with problems (even after replacing it the first 2 weeks of use) The screen has light leaking problems, the battery life sucks, and its as heavy as a brick. If I keep it plugged in, on my desk, in darkish lighting, its a great desktop replacement laptop. The identical spec'd MacBook Pro is light, has long battery life, and a beautiful screen. All of my powerbooks Ive had throughout the years (3) have all been perfect, and Ive sold them for over 1000 dollars even after having them for more than 2 years. They just last, and are dependable.

Ill probably switch back eventually.

that's cool I can dig it. Laptops are still made of alot more proprietary hardware then desktops are so thats believable. Will the same be able to be said about their upcoming desktop line?

beaker
08-08-2006, 08:44 PM
This is real good news!
CPUs are no more solden to the motherboard = I will upgrade on new dual-quad-cores around september 2007! ;)The cpus haven't been soldered to the motherboard for about 8 years. The G4 & G5 also used ziff slots.

Dreamabyss
08-08-2006, 09:21 PM
Apple hasn't really done anything stylish in years. Rehash.. push to the masses.

Finally, the Troll appears.

willbrown
08-08-2006, 09:34 PM
For those concerned about support. I've never needed support while using Macs. Frankly, in nearly 18 years of using Apple machines, only 2 hardrives have hosed and I had backups. Apple hardware rarely fails, period. I've used Macs and PCs for many years side-by-side, Macs last longer. Macs don't need as much support because you get what you pay for...quality design and performance. Buy crap; get crap. There has always been a reason Apple was more expensive... quality. Now you're getting quality at a PC PRICE from Apple.


I've worked for the last 18 years in a Creative group that was all Mac and now switched to PCs. BOO HOO!
I'll bet our admin people will rethink this decision. I'm on a Dell Dual Xeon box at work. My Intel mac mini at home outperforms the Dual Xeon on some tasks.


There is no doubt in my mind that windows is a pig and it ain't good and it ain't cool. IT SUCKS!. OSX however, is at least 5 years ahead of windows.


I'd suggest getting a MAC PRO. You can run OSx and Windows. Run PC apps on a windows boot. Then find out OSx is really as cool as all us Mac geeks say it is. Just the recent price drop on Shake makes this a great deal for anybody who wants to compsite Max renders in Shake without having to jump on another machine.

I'd really like to see AUTODESK finally port Max to OSx. I'd never touch a computer running windose again if they did.

tuna
08-08-2006, 10:00 PM
I wish they gave a 1cpu option. There isn't much I do which requires the use of 4 cores, so the money is basically wasted. :sad: More graphics cards as options would be nice too. Any reason why they limited it to only 3 types?

ihavenofish
08-08-2006, 10:02 PM
and theres the second...
:-P
just kidding.

but see, youre wrong. youre whitewashing (beigewashing?) all pc's as the same as your lonely xeon. they arent.

first off, a note about "quality". the macs and pc's.. new and old are all made of the same parts.. made by the same people. they are.. the same. asus makes the mac books.. lg makes the lcd's. ram, hard drives and the like are all from the usual suspects. if any of those parts are prone to failure in a pc.. they will be equally prone in a mac.

thats not where the quality difference is. the quality difference is in how the mac = more than the sum of its parts. its the attention to detail.. making each part work together vs making each part hit a price point. things like mini dvi on notebooks, access to parts in the chassis. putting actual thought into layout and cooling rather than stuffing 46 fans inside and calling it a day.

these are things that most manufacturers big and small put no effort into. a few, like sony, attempt ti make a stylish exterior, but the insides are white box crap. have you ever opened the back of an imac g5? the money time and effort that went into that layout is phenomenal. no pc maker would do that. just look at the a-open mac mini clone. its the same machine quite literally. it is the same size, same layout.. same price. but its plastic and ugly. its what pc makerts seem to do best when it comes to design: miss the point. they used to be able to justify it by being cheaper. that wont fly anymore.

you also make some comments about windows that well.. are subjective at best. i run xp 64 bit edition, and i like it alot. its fast, stable and does everything it needs too. i have had 3 macs. an os9 imac. an imac g5, and a mac mini g4. i find osx to be the most bloated, sluggish useless POS ive ever used. and im including win98. it crashes more often in 1 day than xp64 does in a year. only os9 and win98 beat it out for crashing.
its all about what you do and your own needs. noones ever going to convert me to osx. i hate it. it doesnt do anything i need it to. theres an equal amount of people who can legitimately say the same about windows. then theres a whole lot in the middle who it really doesnt matter to.

but as of right now.. we can all own a mac pro and be happy. well, assuming we have that kind of money :)

later

agreenster
08-08-2006, 10:14 PM
I'd really like to see AUTODESK finally port Max to OSx. I'd never touch a computer running windose again if they did.

They gotta get UB's for MAYA first!


first off, a note about "quality". the macs and pc's.. new and old are all made of the same parts.. made by the same people. they are.. the same. asus makes the mac books.. lg makes the lcd's. ram, hard drives and the like are all from the usual suspects. if any of those parts are prone to failure in a pc.. they will be equally prone in a mac.


Apple always has the reputation among vendors as being one of the most stringent in terms of getting their component into a Mac. You have to do a lot of testing and hoop-jumping before they mass produce with your component, and make sure every potential component works well together and is up to a level of quality Apple deems worthy. They are bastards to work with, which is why consumers get better machines. Its also why eMachines are so cheap--they'll let just any component in.

Lone Deranger
08-08-2006, 10:32 PM
Never gonna happen. They are Mac *PRO's*. There are other models (iMac, Mac-mini) outthere that'll cater to more modest setup requirements.
But hey, you can always just buy a Mac Pro, yank one proc out (hope it'll still run) and flog it on eBay. ;)

I wish they gave a 1cpu option. There isn't much I do which requires the use of 4 cores, so the money is basically wasted. :sad: More graphics cards as options would be nice too. Any reason why they limited it to only 3 types?

ihavenofish
08-08-2006, 10:41 PM
"Apple always has the reputation among vendors as being one of the most stringent in terms of getting their component into a Mac. "

so do i :-P
if you buy a crap pc, you get a crap pc. no question about it. but if you built a pc with the same parts (boxx 8300 for example, or just custom) as the mac.. youd get just that, the same pc.

thats all in making it work together. the value added service if you will. I personally could build a machine that is as good or better than the mac pro performance wise. id venture to say that the pc i have right now IS said machine. but its not as pretty and cost more. it also sounds like a f**king jet engine. and in the end, im really only hoping i wont have driver issues because someone else on the net has a machine thats "almost" the same and says its fine.

right now, as far as im concerned.. having zero interest in osx.. apple is a pc vendor like any other. and right now i see that they have probably the best worstation package for the price.

later

tuna
08-08-2006, 11:42 PM
Never gonna happen. They are Mac *PRO's*. There are other models (iMac, Mac-mini) outthere that'll cater to more modest setup requirements.
But hey, you can always just buy a Mac Pro, yank one proc out (hope it'll still run) and flog it on eBay. ;)

Hah, no way. If I have to spend money on extra CPUs I'll just FORCE myself to use them! Options are always nice, though. I'm definitely not looking for something like an iMac or mini, however. Those cater for completely other things entirely.
I'm umm'ing and ahh'ing about it all really. Very temping to jump in and get one though.. I'll let my wallet decide in a couple of weeks.
Any news or guesses on how loud these things are going to be? I know Woodcrest is pretty cool, so I should imagine it's going to be quite quiet, but anywhere near silent?

marosini
08-09-2006, 06:32 AM
I'd really like to see AUTODESK finally port Max to OSx. I'd never touch a computer running windose again if they did.

Don't know.. I'm a forced AutoStuff user, so I should agree.. but the idea of AutoCAD running on OSX makes me pretty anxious.

cresshead
08-09-2006, 06:39 AM
hope they're not a loud as my silicon graphics 320 or sgi230 pc's..those both have fans that could cool down the sun and freeze it solid!

R10k
08-09-2006, 07:08 AM
Hmmm, it all looks nice, but I've enjoyed being able to pop down to the local (computer) hardware store and pick up a new part. Power suppy die? No worries, grab another and quickly replace the old one. New graphics card? Go window shopping and pop it in yourself in a few minutes. I like the new Apple options, but I'm not a big fan of having to wait on Apple to do those things for me, if need be. And, I'm no tech-ninja either... most of the basics are pretty easy to replace or shift around these days.

If Apple ever offered that kind of convenience, I'm sure I'd be more excitied about the Mac Pro.

almux
08-09-2006, 07:32 AM
I wish they gave a 1cpu option. There isn't much I do which requires the use of 4 cores, so the money is basically wasted. :sad: More graphics cards as options would be nice too. Any reason why they limited it to only 3 types?
I think this would have too close performances compared to an iMac or a Mac Mini with CPU upgrade... The entry level of Mac Pro is already quite affordable for a workstation... isn't it?

Lone Deranger
08-09-2006, 07:57 AM
No news about that yet.. but looking at the new interior layout, the processor area is tiny compared to the old G5's indicating less drastic cooling measures. Also, the Woodcrest has a better performance per Watt ratio. So it pumps out less heat. I think it's something like 65Watts for the 2.0 and 2.66 models(?) and 85Watts for the 3.0 model. The overclocked G5's are round about 100Watts I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?
The power supply having moved to the top of the case (being at the bottom in the G5's) should also help a bit in keeping things cooler.
But hey... these are all merely educated guesses. Best to wait a few weeks until after the first batches have shipped and let the brave early adopters call the verdict. :)

Any news or guesses on how loud these things are going to be? I know Woodcrest is pretty cool, so I should imagine it's going to be quite quiet, but anywhere near silent?

almux
08-10-2006, 06:36 PM
wow ummm looks like the old machine.
Here are some details:
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/desktop/2006/0809_dt3200.html
or
http://www.powermax.com/articles_reviews/article.php?id=32

Just for academic overview...

tecton3d
08-10-2006, 06:57 PM
@marosini... Autocad on a mac makes me hopeful rather than anxious!!

I'm not a macguy but I sat through the whole thing (http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html)... seriously starting to question my MS loyalty now:love:

the only reason I didn't go a mac last hardware upgrade was that they were underpowered compared to dual socket 940 Opterons... and now that it's official that hell's froze over and the pigs have flown (a la ~ woodcrest xeons in a Mac)... those sexy G5 cases may be too much to resist for my next hardware upgrade : )

cheers

almux
08-10-2006, 06:58 PM
The cpus haven't been soldered to the motherboard for about 8 years. The G4 & G5 also used ziff slots.
...May be... may be... but buying a separate CPU from IBM or Moto would have cost half of the machine then... Now the upgrade is easier on sockets and Intel cuts prices since AMD's breaking in... Ho! Happy days to come!... ;o)

1000101
08-10-2006, 06:59 PM
Hmmm, it all looks nice, but I've enjoyed being able to pop down to the local (computer) hardware store and pick up a new part. Power suppy die? No worries, grab another and quickly replace the old one. New graphics card? Go window shopping and pop it in yourself in a few minutes. I like the new Apple options, but I'm not a big fan of having to wait on Apple to do those things for me, if need be. And, I'm no tech-ninja either... most of the basics are pretty easy to replace or shift around these days.

If Apple ever offered that kind of convenience, I'm sure I'd be more excitied about the Mac Pro.

And why can't you do that with this system again?



sad for them. I'd rather go cheaper with a Boxx or equiv vendor.


I'm not good with math but I priced a BoXX with dual woodcrest 3ghz xeons and 2GB of RAM with a quadro 4500 with a 250GB SATA drive against a MacPro with dual woodcrest 3ghz Xeons and 2GB of RAM with a Quadro 4500 and a 250 gig SATA drive.

BoXX $6,247.00
MacPro $5,249.00

Now like I said I'm no math genius but I think I can tell bigger numbers from smaller numbers.

So yeah keep on with your anti-mac rage!

beaker
08-10-2006, 08:11 PM
...May be... may be... but buying a separate CPU from IBM or Moto would have cost half of the machine then... Now the upgrade is easier on sockets and Intel cuts prices since AMD's breaking in... Ho! Happy days to come!... ;o)Of course the cpu upgrades were expensive but that wasn't the point of my post. You said that it was soldered on the motherboard and not interchangable and I was simply correcting you. :P

enygma
08-11-2006, 01:57 AM
Any word on whether the Mac Pro with Boot Camp supports Windows XP Pro X64 edition yet?

I'm considering picking up a Mac Pro for my up and coming studio for compositing and 3D work, and since Tiger isn't fully 64bit capable, using 64bit Windows is best alternative.

BigJay
08-11-2006, 02:24 AM
good to see apple getting more competitive with their pricing. Of course, with standard intel hardware, how could they NOT?

Since my shop uses all windows based software, I have no plans to pick one up. Though I found it interesting to see a coworker purchase one of those new 17" screen laptops. He installed the bootcamp and windows and had himself up and running our software in no time. I asked him when he planned on using the macOS if he will always be running windows to use our software. He kinda shrugged and said probably not alot. I then asked why he even purchased the mac then. He replied, that it looks cool. :shrug:

So honest question: I thought people bought macs, because they specifically designed their proprietary hardware to run flawlessly with their software. So whats the motivation now? Final Cut Pro?

Oh, and hows the file interopability between the windows and macOS when installed on same system? I heard a rumor its pretty sketchy.


you need a driver to read the mac partition of the drive. Mac can't write to NTFS but can read. I've been formatting the HD so that windows had under 30GB and making it a Fat-32 partition, which OSX can write to.

BigJay
08-11-2006, 02:37 AM
As for support you can avoid it with a little caution. No computer is ever perfect the first time out so the first thing you should do is wait and make sure there are no issues with the mac pros. Usually I wait till the second patch which has usually been updated with all the fixes to the 1st editions. This takes some serious will power to wait a month or two when everyone else is drooling over their new toys.

Second give it air... nice cool dry air. I can't explain the number of people who I deal with that have lost their computers to heat this summer. New and old Macs are all dying in the heat. That also means if you get a macbook pro (or any laptop) to never lay it on your bed while surfing or reading. The heat is shed through the metal and putting it on a pillow or on the bed will cook the poor computer.

UPS is also good. The steady power though a UPS is great if you are in a building/house that does not have steady power.... steady power you ask.... yeah like when the clothes dryer comes on or the microwave and the lights dim. that is poor power. those can crash a computer so a UPS (uninterupted Power supply) is great to keep the power nice and steady. Also if you have a black out you will have a few minutes to shut it off.

We are ordering two of the mac pros with all the fixins through work. Will be interesting to compare it to the machine I built for work.

Aneks
08-11-2006, 02:48 AM
yeah the Win xp 64 / vista question is the biggest thing for me right now !

opus13
08-11-2006, 03:34 AM
you need a driver to read the mac partition of the drive. Mac can't write to NTFS but can read. I've been formatting the HD so that windows had under 30GB and making it a Fat-32 partition, which OSX can write to.

wow. that is straight up retarded. what jackass thought up of a dualboot system with non-interoperable operating systems? that negates half the benefit of having multiple operating systems on one machine.

that's one hell of a dealbreaker

JDex
08-11-2006, 03:39 AM
wow. that is straight up retarded. what jackass thought up of a dualboot system with non-interoperable operating systems? that negates half the benefit of having multiple operating systems on one machine.

that's one hell of a dealbreaker

Email Microsoft and tell them to open up their NTFS filesystem and to start reading/writing Linux and Unix Filesystems.

almux
08-11-2006, 08:33 AM
Of course the cpu upgrades were expensive but that wasn't the point of my post. You said that it was soldered on the motherboard and not interchangable and I was simply correcting you. :P
Sorry for my bad foreigner's english!
I wanted to say : cpus can be VERY easely changed on sockets. I still have a 2X1hgz MDD G4 and know the difficulty and the price range for upgrading it 1 or 2 years ago...

1000101
08-11-2006, 04:27 PM
yeah the Win xp 64 / vista question is the biggest thing for me right now !

Ars Technica has a review of the MacPro and yes it will run on it. The Xeon 5100 series is a 64 bit CPU.

edit: Powermac is not MacPro

pixelmonk
08-11-2006, 04:30 PM
I can't wait to spec parts and build my own frankenOSX box. Screw apple... build your own!

SheepFactory
08-11-2006, 06:43 PM
Is it true you cant use other video cards aside from the ones listed on the apple store while configuring the system?

1000101
08-11-2006, 06:50 PM
Not sure yet Sheepfactory. I figure eventually somone is going to try and post their results. That somebody might be me if I can convince my boss to get me demo pricing.



I can't wait to spec parts and build my own frankenOSX box. Screw apple... build your own!


why do you post in threads involving Apple if all you have to contribute is the same old thing?

Zarf
08-11-2006, 06:51 PM
wow. that is straight up retarded. what jackass thought up of a dualboot system with non-interoperable operating systems? that negates half the benefit of having multiple operating systems on one machine.

that's one hell of a dealbreaker

This situation is not unique to OSX however.

For instance Linux can only read NTFS as well. (write support is only partially implemented and not considered ready to use). This has never stopped people from dual booting windows/linux in the past.

Cheers,
Xarf

cresshead
08-11-2006, 06:54 PM
for windows partition just format it to fat32 then mac osx can see it...simple!

also yeah winxp 64 does indeed install okay.


http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/macpro.ars/1

Zarf
08-11-2006, 06:59 PM
I can't wait to spec parts and build my own frankenOSX box. Screw apple... build your own!

Good luck with that. Since doing so would require hacking the OSX binaries I would recommend caution though. Binary level alterations to a programs code can make things go all kinds of haywire in the most unexpected way. Doing so might be a violation of several laws as well.

Cheers,
Xarf

BigJay
08-11-2006, 10:46 PM
wow. that is straight up retarded. what jackass thought up of a dualboot system with non-interoperable operating systems? that negates half the benefit of having multiple operating systems on one machine.

that's one hell of a dealbreaker

I don't know the reason behind it but outside of windows no one can write to NTFS partitions. Hell in Panther it froze my mac half the time if I even looked at it. Linux and Apple are working on drivers to allow writing. Even windows 98 can't read them and the hack of taking drivers off a WinXP install only allows reading as well.

If the PC partition is under 30GB you can use FAT32. I have my partition set to 20GB and made it FAT32 that way the mac can at least talk to it.

I hope with Lepard they add a mac HD reading driver to Bootcamp.

beaker
08-11-2006, 10:58 PM
I don't know the reason behind it but outside of windows no one can write to NTFS partitions. Hell in Panther it froze my mac half the time if I even looked at it. Linux and Apple are working on drivers to allow writing. Even windows 98 can't read them and the hack of taking drivers off a WinXP install only allows reading as well.It's because the OS is tied to the filesystem. It stores some of the journal in the OS, so if you write something to it without it knowing about it, then there can be issues with data corruption.

If the PC partition is under 30GB you can use FAT32. I have my partition set to 20GB and made it FAT32 that way the mac can at least talk to it.There is no limit on FAT32 partition size. Only M$ windows limits the size to 30 gig because they want you to use NTFS instead of FAT32. Any partition/formating tools outside the built in ones can format any size partition (partition magic for example).

mummey
08-11-2006, 11:43 PM
Not sure yet Sheepfactory. I figure eventually somone is going to try and post their results. That somebody might be me if I can convince my boss to get me demo pricing.




why do you post in threads involving Apple if all you have to contribute is the same old thing?

Just add him to your ignore list.


Click on his name in a post.
Select his Public Profile, a new page will pop-up
In the new page, select "Add pixelmonk to your ignore list."
Done! :thumbsup:

Thalaxis
08-12-2006, 01:24 AM
It's because the OS is tied to the filesystem. It stores some of the journal in the OS, so if you write something to it without it knowing about it, then there can be issues with data corruption.


NTFS isn't journaled, just proprietary.


There is no limit on FAT32 partition size. Only M$ windows limits the size to 30 gig because they want you to use NTFS instead of FAT32. Any partition/formating tools outside the built in ones can format any size partition (partition magic for example).

FAT is exceedingly inefficient. It's also about as robust as a house of cards. There are a lot of good reasons to use NTFS rather than FAT of any kind... reliability, efficiency, fault-recovery, access control, and even little things like long filenames (FAT32 "supports" them via a rather crappy hack).

rebo
08-12-2006, 01:33 AM
wow. that is straight up retarded. what jackass thought up of a dualboot system with non-interoperable operating systems? that negates half the benefit of having multiple operating systems on one machine.

This is the same for every dual boot system involving windows. Its quite straightforward to work around. For instance Macdrive for the xp partition now you can read both partitions no matter what OS you've booted into.

beaker
08-12-2006, 02:08 AM
NTFS isn't journaled, just proprietary.Microsoft and everyone else seems to think it is. I googled it and I could point to a variety of webpages that say it is, but nothing is better then a document straight from the horses mouth:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/1/3/113f6ce1-a87e-4740-a30d-1dcb72a39a72/FileOverview.doc
Page 19:
NTFS is a fully journaled file system: it uses write-ahead logging (the same technique used in most databases) to ensure that its metadata is consistent, even after a crash.

Anyways, we we're discussing how to get your data between the two OS installs of OSX and XP by just having a fat32 formated drive as a go between. Same thing I have to do on a box with linux/xp and the same thing I had to do in the old days when I ran a dual boot of NT3.51&4.0/Win95&98. Of course NTFS is better, but in an instance like this, it's not an option.

All the firewire drives we use in vfx for shuttling files between companies is usually a fat32 formatted drive because it simply works no matter what OS your running: Win, Linux, Sgi, OSX, etc....

Thalaxis
08-12-2006, 02:24 AM
Microsoft and everyone else seems to think it is. I googled it and I could point to a variety of webpages that say it is, but nothing is better then a document straight from the horses mouth:

Take note of the version that document refers to. They might have back-ported the journaling to the workstation/home version.


Anyways, we we're discussing how to get your data between the two OS installs of OSX and XP by just having a fat32 formated drive as a go between. Same thing I have to do on a box with linux/xp and the same thing I had to do in the old days when I ran a dual boot of NT3.51&4.0/Win95&98. Of course NTFS is better, but in an instance like this, it's not an option.


And I suspect that it's because MS doesn't want it to be an option. ;)


All the firewire drives we use in vfx for shuttling files between companies is usually a fat32 formatted drive because it simply works no matter what OS your running: Win, Linux, Sgi, OSX, etc....

Another option is to use PCNFS or Samba, which allow NT to read NFS filesystems, which every UNIX OS I know of supports.

beaker
08-12-2006, 03:16 AM
Take note of the version that document refers to. They might have back-ported the journaling to the workstation/home version.Ugh, why did I know you we're going to say that :). I was a sysadmin back in the nt3.51 days. I remember the big deal with NTFS is that it was journaled. I just haven't had a M$ Tech-net account in about 10 years so I can go find an old document from Microsoft that says that NTFS has been journaled since the beginning.

Another option is to use PCNFS or Samba, which allow NT to read NFS filesystems, which every UNIX OS I know of supports.Are you refering to using a portable NAS device? Otherwise I don't know what a portable firewire drive that you sneaker-net from one company to another has anything to do with using NFS/Samba?

Thalaxis
08-12-2006, 03:34 AM
Ugh, why did I know you we're going to say that :). I was a sysadmin back in the nt3.51 days. I remember the big deal with NTFS is that it was journaled.


Ah yes, the old authority ploy. I doubt that journaling hasn't made it into the non-server versions of NT thus far.


Are you refering to using a portable NAS device? Otherwise I don't know what a portable firewire drive that you sneaker-net from one company to another has anything to do with using NFS/Samba?

If you're running winXP in a VM, share an NFS partition on the network, and mount it in XP. :)

It's probably more effort than it's worth, though.

opus13
08-12-2006, 06:39 AM
Email Microsoft and tell them to open up their NTFS filesystem and to start reading/writing Linux and Unix Filesystems.


microsoft isn't using multiOS booting as an advertising point. apple is. its very much a dealbreaker

JDex
08-12-2006, 06:57 AM
Perhaps for you... but I don't see it that way. While the ideal would be that Microsoft play nice with others, the fact of the matter is that only a few power users will have serious issues with this (as they're likely already used to it) and only a few non-power users will have problems as they don't deal with enough data to have problems with the situation.

Sharky0815
08-12-2006, 07:07 AM
There is a new driver that allows full NTFS read/write under Linux. Looks very promising. Here is some info:

Finally Linux has got full read-write (http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=23836054&forum_id=2697) open source NTFS support! Preliminary benchmarks show that the still unoptimized driver already sometimes twice as fast as ext3 and 20-50 faster than the commercial Paragon NTFS. Interestingly Captive NTFS, which uses the native Windows NTFS driver, fails all benchmarks with file loss.

(More info on Paragon (http://www.ntfs-linux.com/), the older, proprietary solution.)

I would expect for NTFS-3g (the new driver) to be ported to OSX eventually.

In other news, Apple has open-sourced (http://www.macosforge.org/) the x86 Kernel which is a great commitment to openness. And openness is good for us as consumers. Because then such things as the ugly NTFS driver hacks wouldn´t have to be written.

beaker
08-12-2006, 09:19 AM
Ah yes, the old authority ploy. I doubt that journaling hasn't made it into the non-server versions of NT thus far.Don't be an ass. Wikipedia and many other pages agree that NTFS has had journed file system outside the server version for quite some time (atleast win2k but Im sure there is more info out there but I don't feel like wasting braincells on proving dumb shit to you). M$ website is devoid of anything NT351/NT4/Win2k related (you would think it didn't exist).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntfs
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/ntfs/rel_Change.htm

As for your other comment about using a VM under XP. Your smoking a bowl or just trying to be an ass and goat me into some retard my dick is bigger then yours fight. The whole point was that there are many companies don't run XP or any other windows OS and only have OSX or only have Linux.

beaker
08-12-2006, 09:28 AM
microsoft isn't using multiOS booting as an advertising point. apple is. its very much a dealbreakerWho cares? These machines are meant for a certain audience. Obviously it's not meant for you.

1000101
08-12-2006, 08:39 PM
Ah yes, the old authority ploy. I doubt that journaling hasn't made it into the non-server versions of NT thus far.



http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310749/en-us

If microsoft isn't an authority on the subject I dunno who else would be. NTFS has been journaled across all win32 platforms for some time now.

Also not everything is a candidate for virtualization. And Windows doesn't natively support NFS....

Thalaxis
08-13-2006, 03:56 AM
Also not everything is a candidate for virtualization. And Windows doesn't natively support NFS....


Why do you think I pointed out the requirement for Samba or PC NFS?

Thalaxis
08-13-2006, 03:58 AM
Don't be an ass. Wikipedia and many other pages agree that NTFS has had journed file system outside the server version for quite some time (atleast win2k but Im sure there is more info out there but I don't feel like wasting braincells on proving dumb shit to you). M$ website is devoid of anything NT351/NT4/Win2k related (you would think it didn't exist).


If they did implement journaling, their implementation is lousy, since it failed to provide some of the more useful benefits of journaling -- and still does in many cases fail, requiring a full file-system scan in order to verify the consistency of the file system in case of a crash.

As for your other comment about using a VM under XP. Your smoking a bowl or just trying to be an ass and goat me into some retard my dick is bigger then yours fight.

Obviously, you didn't read what I wrote very well.

spookje
08-13-2006, 08:08 AM
All the NTFS versions that came out, from NT 3.something to NT4, 2k and XP are all journalled, yes. And a filesystem-check on a journalled filesystem (NTFS, XFS, etc) means "check the journals to see if it's all consistent and do a roll-back if something is wrong". Journalling doesn't mean it keeps all your data intact. It keeps the filesystem structure intact. Most filesystems (like the ones mentioned above) are normally only journalling the meta-data. Full data journalling is used very rarely since it slows down things a lot. So you won't usually find that in generic systems like Win32, OSX or the various UNIX-systems (or at least not enabled by default). You can check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems in the 'features' list for filesystems that support block-journaling and metadata-journaling

As for nobody being able to write it: http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/

There, that's it for the operating-system concepts lecture today. Can we please get back to graphics? :)

cresshead
08-13-2006, 08:38 AM
i visited my local apple store [in nottingham u.k] and they said they should ahve a demo macpro in the store in a week or so...and they'll be bootcamping it with xp...plus i said if i could try it out with the demo of 3dsmax8 on it...'yeah no problem' which is real good of them i think!

so i will be able to 'try before i buy' for running xp on the macpro... in a somwewhat related issue has anyone noticed that DELL.co.uk no longer give you an option to buy a dual xeon based workstation and they also do not offer the lartest chips....they did last monday but on tuesday they pulled all the dual cpu xeons from 'configure and buy'....i think they maybe offloading all the old chip cpu's f rom the usa to clear their stock seeing as apple has upset the cart so to speak...

stee+cats

almux
08-13-2006, 08:58 AM
... ...

As for nobody being able to write it: http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/

There, that's it for the operating-system concepts lecture today. Can we please get back to graphics? :)

This is probably one of the features to be included in next "Leopard" BootCamp.
But, to get back to the topics title, I'd rather suggest anthousiastic and septic people to find their nearest Apple retailer to give that workstation a try.

tuna
08-13-2006, 12:45 PM
in a somwewhat related issue has anyone noticed that DELL.co.uk no longer give you an option to buy a dual xeon based workstation and they also do not offer the lartest chips....

The Dell "precision workstation 690" can be configured with dual Xeon 51xx series. (I think you'll find it under "Medium-sized Business"). Be warned though, it's ridiculously expensive in comparison to the Apple.

cresshead
08-13-2006, 12:55 PM
geez!
...so they moved them to only show up in medium business..sneeky!

the DELL is£1500 more than the same config apple has!

thats' it...no waaaay will dell compete!..they need to drop their proce right this second!
the only thing i need to do is find out where n how much winxp64 is to buy in the uk....so that i can if i wish run mx9 [64bit version] on the apple as well...

Womball
08-14-2006, 04:54 PM
So you can use XSI and Windows XP without OSX at all? I am not fond of OSX and have a lot of experience with XP. Also all of the programs I own are for the pc. Can you have more than 1 harddrive? -edit I see you can have 4. The Ram kind of worries me though. ITs really expensive and they claim that non apple ram is less effective. Also the GPU's seem to be expensive too. Would be nice to have a mid card between the 2300 and the ati x1800.

almux
08-25-2006, 07:52 AM
For those who want to use Windows-only on a MacPro:

From Kossovsky reports:
"In Leopard, the operating system, comand-line interface and even the application interface are 64-bit. This means all applications will have access to the full amount of installed RAM and will not be limited to 4GB. Imagine 16GB of RAM allocated to image rendering or genome sequencing. This should have the science, technology and creative folks salivating. Moreover, unlike some other operating systems [like Windows], the 64-bit version is fully 32-bit compatible. So there is only a single flavor of Apple's next Mac OS, which is fully native on Intel and PowerPC machines and offers one master install."

link: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9002703

Saturn
08-25-2006, 07:56 AM
actually you can run 32 bit application with xp64.

almux
08-25-2006, 08:08 AM
So you can use XSI and Windows XP without OSX at all? I am not fond of OSX and have a lot of experience with XP. Also all of the programs I own are for the pc. Can you have more than 1 harddrive? -edit I see you can have 4. The Ram kind of worries me though. ITs really expensive and they claim that non apple ram is less effective. Also the GPU's seem to be expensive too. Would be nice to have a mid card between the 2300 and the ati x1800.
If you ride on BootCamp and Windows only, all the PC supported cards will run (but only under Windows = black screen under OSX because of EFI's, firmwares and all other technical miseries).
There are some other Ram (OWC but others too) the only outcome is Windows ability to manage as much Ram gigs as OSX... and cooling...
Apple recommands these precise ram because of best dissipation and though higher silence confort (fans run far less with theese)...

If you're patient and willing to stretch your researches a little further, here some links:
http://www.macworld.com/2006/08/firstlooks/macprofaq/index.php
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=223501

almux
08-25-2006, 08:12 AM
actually you can run 32 bit application with xp64.

Seams more complicated than that... in Microsoft's world:
http://www.apcstart.com/site/dwarne/2006/08/1139/microsoft-cuts-another-feature-full-hd-playback-in-32bit-vista

So even when Vista comes out... some will have to consider options...

pixelmonk
08-25-2006, 02:09 PM
Seams more complicated than that... in Microsoft's world:
http://www.apcstart.com/site/dwarne/2006/08/1139/microsoft-cuts-another-feature-full-hd-playback-in-32bit-vista

So even when Vista comes out... some will have to consider options...

day late and a dollar short, Mac dude.. it's already been talked about in another thread. Debunked.. Done.

Myliobatidae
08-25-2006, 03:40 PM
geez!
...so they moved them to only show up in medium business..sneeky!

the DELL is£1500 more than the same config apple has!

thats' it...no waaaay will dell compete!..they need to drop their proce right this second!
the only thing i need to do is find out where n how much winxp64 is to buy in the uk....so that i can if i wish run mx9 [64bit version] on the apple as well...

Will winxp64 run in bootcamp ??

cresshead
08-25-2006, 08:38 PM
win64 and bootcapm...apparently..ypu..or so i've read...will have to SEE it....

though winxp32bit would be okay for now...until max9 comes out and my subscription to max get's a nice new 3dsmax which includes the 64bit version!

looks to me like i'll be getting a mac desktop to mainly run windows...how weird is that?
and to top it off the main reason is price!...and how WEUIRD is that for apple to be cheaper than a standard pc???

intersting times!

almux
08-25-2006, 09:02 PM
day late and a dollar short, Mac dude.. it's already been talked about in another thread. Debunked.. Done.

Yess, yess... so much more to read on the net!
Yet, of course, Windows users will have choice with the flavor of their OS, maybe number 6 - a little more expensiv than flavor 5 - will be with 64bits...
OSX will still be as 1 user flavor and 1 serve. And both will run 64 bits natively 32 bits compliant...
I have no doubt that GC factories and great apps developpers will grab the oportunity to sell some good stuff for Macs as well... Who knows... coming out with, finally, completely cross-platforme and universally compatible technical wonders?!

beaker
08-26-2006, 12:06 AM
From Kossovsky reports:
"In Leopard, the operating system, comand-line interface and even the application interface are 64-bit. This means all applications will have access to the full amount of installed RAM and will not be limited to 4GB. Imagine 16GB of RAM allocated to image rendering or genome sequencing. This should have the science, technology and creative folks salivating. Moreover, unlike some other operating systems [like Windows], the 64-bit version is fully 32-bit compatible. So there is only a single flavor of Apple's next Mac OS, which is fully native on Intel and PowerPC machines and offers one master install."

link: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9002703This is actually incorrect or should I say it needs to be clarified. Only applications compiled for 64 bit can use more then 4 gig of ram. 32 bit apps are still limited to under 4gb.

JDex
08-26-2006, 12:13 AM
Running 32bit Windows applications on a 64bit Windows OS is only available for legacy purposes, and several apps have problems due to missing or modified libraries and of course driver hangups.

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