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enrique_david
08-06-2006, 09:38 PM
Hello all! I've been modeling with C4D for a while. I model mostly "non-living" things. I've been wanting to get into the character animation portion of it but I'm not good at modeling characters. Does anyone have any tutorials that wmight help me out? Preferably not in PDF format. I have trouble following PDF instructions. If anyone has any info please let me know. thanx!

AdamT
08-06-2006, 10:27 PM
Here's a pretty good one for box modeling a head: http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~mimura/tutorials/index_e.html

enrique_david
08-07-2006, 12:04 AM
Thanks, Adam! Everytime I post a thread asking someone for some help on this subject this tutorial always ends up coming around. I'm not neccesarily looking for facial modeling but thanx anyways. Maybe I should rephrase myself..... it would be nice it anyone had "video" tutorials. The thing is that, even with head modeling, there're only about 3 or 4 text tuorials. and to me they're not that very helpful. I think that this is the only head tutorial out there that you don't need a reference image (i like it better that way).

pzdm
08-07-2006, 07:31 AM
Thanks, Adam! Everytime I post a thread asking someone for some help on this subject this tutorial always ends up coming around. I'm not neccesarily looking for facial modeling but thanx anyways. Maybe I should rephrase myself..... it would be nice it anyone had "video" tutorials. The thing is that, even with head modeling, there're only about 3 or 4 text tuorials. and to me they're not that very helpful. I think that this is the only head tutorial out there that you don't need a reference image (i like it better that way).

This is my way...

http://www.3dsoftware.cz/3dportal/clanek.aspx?id=49

I ussually start eye > nose > forehead > mouth...

Sneaker
08-07-2006, 07:47 AM
I don't think there are much video tutorials available dirctly for C4D.

Regarding modeling try a google search on specific body parts.
"modeling a head c4d" or "modeling an ear c4d"
You'll find some more tutorials in this case.
Maxon had a complete human available some time ago, it isn't directly linked anymore
but do a search after "modeling Meissie c4d" and you'll find all the parts.
Another easy and very complete one is this (not directly C4D):
http://67.15.36.49/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

You'll maybe find more video tutorials for modo, zbrush or other apps.
Some can be easily translated if you know the tools .
There is for example that Adriana head tutorial for modo (also available from PXC)

good luck,
-Michael

FR33K
08-07-2006, 08:31 AM
hi david,

check out the last 3dcreativmag issues which taught about character modeling its just 4 $ ;-)

http://www.3dcreativemag.com/3dm/

tonyg3d
08-07-2006, 11:12 AM
Hey Rico,

I found this link for getting started with organic modelling
(Head modelling but the theory can be applied to anything really)

Some other great tutorials too. Some are downloadable, full screen videos.

Check out the organic head modelling. There are four parts.
They are for MAX :scream: but the basics are easily applied to Cinema.

LINK (http://www.3dtutorials.sk/)

Hope that helps,

TonyG.

Runen
08-07-2006, 11:33 AM
videotut of a whole character ... all parts together 935mb

maybe this helps :-)

http://forums.polyloop.net/showthread.php?t=5842

also this tut is for hexagon you can do all the things seen here in cinema too.

enrique_david
08-07-2006, 12:50 PM
Thank you all. You were all a lot of help. I'm surprise that there aren't that many tutorials on character modeling. I will try using the methods from these other apps. and I will keep you posted. If I am successful I will create a tutorial specifically for Cinema 4D off of what I've learned. Thanks again.

cookepuss
08-07-2006, 05:38 PM
My only caveat regarding that "Joan of Arc" tutorial is that it's too straight forward. That's great for newbies, but he really doesn't explore the notion of muscle loop based topology for anything other than the face. For animatable characters, that's an oversight. Still, that tutorial is probably your best entry point into character modeling.

I've been putting together a JoA-level tutorial myself, based on one of the characters from my film project. It'll cover stuff such as conceptualization, planning, modeling, texturing, hair, & rigging. I've already got most of my screenshots taken, which was easy since I save incrementally. I just have to write the copy for that, which takes time. I'll see what I can do about writing the copy this coming weekend.

FR33K
08-07-2006, 09:30 PM
@ cookepuss (member.php?u=11298)

great hope to see it coming in this thread :)

FR33K
08-08-2006, 04:57 PM
i am a newbie too in c4d and modelled this character in many many hours coz i must still get familiar with all the tools etc... so i have some ideas in my head and one role in this scene plays a warrior (how could it be different :P ) . Until now the model has about 470 polygons and its still in very unfinished rough condition. I started with a single cube and subdivided it 2 times in every axis thats all and then used extrude, bevel not more :) I will at least finish the model but after i will redo this character again cuz i made some newbie failures... i wanna have a character fully moveable in all directions so i want to rig him but not animate (not interested in animations at the moment). So here is my question:

1. When i model a character which shall be rigged at later time what must i consider before I model the character concerning number of polygons, sort of polygons (triangle, quad, ngon), must the character stand to be rigged and strechting his arms horizontally??
2. After the rough character modeling is done i would like to add details to the character like muscle beginnings you can see at very good bodybuilder like ronny coleman :P
Shall i model these detailed muscle beginnings in c4d by adding new point/polys and push them around to get a proper real look??? or is it better to do this in another app which is far more suitable for this job??

i have read of modo and that this application can paint bumps on models although modo is far to expensive for me is there any cheap alternative??

cookepuss
08-08-2006, 05:26 PM
I started with a single cube and subdivided it 2 times in every axis thats all and then used extrude, bevel not more I will at least finish the model but after i will redo this character again cuz i made some newbie failures...
Finish it. A lot of newbies get stuck in a cycle of WIPs. You stand to learn more by finishing it, even if it's bad. Lots of other techniques in addition to box modeling, btw. Another method is poly-by-poly. It's not for the faint of heart, but I find that you have more control over your topology. Personally, I could never stomache box modeling. To each his own though. :)

1. When i model a character which shall be rigged at later time what must i consider with the model concerning number of polygons, sort of polygons (triangle, quad, ngon), must the character stand to be rigged an strechting his arms horizontally??
Triangles are really of most concern to real-time artists, mainly because they [triangles] are always coplanar. For most everything else, I tend to use quads. HyperNURBS (HN) love them and will ultimately subdivide into quads anyway. Using HN with triangles can lead to lumpy looking surfaces. I use triangle very sparingly. As far as Ngons go, I more or less never use them. Prior to R9, C4D didn't have them. I got used to not needing them. They are indeed a time saver, but I feel that (for some people) Ngons can promote lazy modeling habits.

As far as pose goes, if you're going to rig your model at a later date, I suggest one of three poses. The most obvious one is the classic DaVinci-style "Vitruvian Man" pose where the arms & legs are outstretched. A variation of that is the classic "T-Shape" pose where the arms are horizontal and the legs are together. The final one is more of a natural stance where the arms are at a 23-45 degree angle from the body and the feet are spread out to shoulder width. The biggest reasons to choose one one over the other have to do with vertex weighting, loop alignment, & posing. Always think about how you want your character to move before you model or rig him.

With regards to poly count, there are two big reasons to be concerned. Reason 1: If the character is for real-time (game) spec. Reason 2: If you need a pre-HN cage that can be animated quickly without having the hassle of slow scrubbing. What is a reasonable poly count? That's entirely up to your system. If you've got a fast CPU, a heap of RAM, and a good GPU then you can do more than if you're stuck on 5 year old hardware. I'd consider render time another issue, but there are so many factors other than poly count that can affect that.

2. After the rough character modeling is done i would like to add details to the character like muscle beginnings you can see at very good bodybuilder like ronny coleman :P
Shall i model these detailed muscle beginnings in c4d by adding new point/polys and push them around to get a proper real look??? or is it better to do this in another app which is far more suitable for this job??
C4D is just fine. I prefer to rough out my basic body shape first. When I'm comfortable with the basic proportions I'll start cutting in muscle details and critical loops. Always be sure to get that basic form down first though. The worse thing that can possibly happen is that you add in all of your details only to find that your proportions are totally off. I reserve use of something like ZBrush for some of the more fine details.

FR33K
08-08-2006, 06:42 PM
Finish it. A lot of newbies get stuck in a cycle of WIPs. You stand to learn more by finishing it, even if it's bad. Lots of other techniques in addition to box modeling, btw. Another method is poly-by-poly. It's not for the faint of heart, but I find that you have more control over your topology. Personally, I could never stomache box modeling. To each his own though. :)


Triangles are really of most concern to real-time artists, mainly because they [triangles] are always coplanar. For most everything else, I tend to use quads. HyperNURBS (HN) love them and will ultimately subdivide into quads anyway. Using HN with triangles can lead to lumpy looking surfaces. I use triangle very sparingly. As far as Ngons go, I more or less never use them. Prior to R9, C4D didn't have them. I got used to not needing them. They are indeed a time saver, but I feel that (for some people) Ngons can promote lazy modeling habits.

As far as pose goes, if you're going to rig your model at a later date, I suggest one of three poses. The most obvious one is the classic DaVinci-style "Vitruvian Man" pose where the arms & legs are outstretched. A variation of that is the classic "T-Shape" pose where the arms are horizontal and the legs are together. The final one is more of a natural stance where the arms are at a 23-45 degree angle from the body and the feet are spread out to shoulder width. The biggest reasons to choose one one over the other have to do with vertex weighting, loop alignment, & posing. Always think about how you want your character to move before you model or rig him.

With regards to poly count, there are two big reasons to be concerned. Reason 1: If the character is for real-time (game) spec. Reason 2: If you need a pre-HN cage that can be animated quickly without having the hassle of slow scrubbing. What is a reasonable poly count? That's entirely up to your system. If you've got a fast CPU, a heap of RAM, and a good GPU then you can do more than if you're stuck on 5 year old hardware. I'd consider render time another issue, but there are so many factors other than poly count that can affect that.


C4D is just fine. I prefer to rough out my basic body shape first. When I'm comfortable with the basic proportions I'll start cutting in muscle details and critical loops. Always be sure to get that basic form down first though. The worse thing that can possibly happen is that you add in all of your details only to find that your proportions are totally off. I reserve use of something like ZBrush for some of the more fine details.

1. ok dont know anything about poly by poly so i will google it maybe i will try that out if you say i have more control!

2. yes as you say i always tried to keep quads in my mesh and if there is a triangle i converted it into a quad if it was possible...

3. so before i choose one of the 3 poses of the model i must know at all which pose my character will have once modelled, right?

4. I dont want animate the character just rig it to have all freedom to move it and change the positions of the single body parts like arm, finger etc... you know?


I prefer to rough out my basic body shape first. When I'm comfortable with the basic proportions I'll start cutting in muscle details and critical loops. Always be sure to get that basic form down first though. The worse thing that can possibly happen is that you add in all of your details only to find that your proportions are totally off. I reserve use of something like ZBrush for some of the more fine details.

yes this I also tried always keep an eye on the rough model and after that i jump to the details. So you say you start cutting in muscle details and critical loops, so you cut edge loops for example in the bizps to make it more detailed? or what tools you use to make it more detailed???

and thank you for you long answer;-)

ok i have edited an image from silo 2 video, there you can see my yellow lines i have done, on the left side of them is a creasing / bump made into the arm, is this done with textures? displacement? with polys?

another question... when i model a character is it better to save a selection of every part of the body like legs, arms, hands, stomach, ab, etc... ??? or how do make that?

cookepuss
08-08-2006, 07:09 PM
1. ok dont know anything about poly by poly so i will google it maybe i will try that out if you say i have more control!
That's just my opinion. You may feel that box modeling is much easier for you. For me, I'm always concerned about establishing proper edge & poly loops since they're key factors in animated meshes. I find that I can more easily lay out my edge/poly loops by laying out the polys one by one. Kinda like setting up track on a model raceway. I can plan my loops out on paper first by laying them out over my sketches. I can then follow my plan from my scanned ortho views. For me it's easier to visualize it that way.

2. yes as you say i always tried to keep quads in my mesh and if there is a triangle i converted it into a quad if it was possible...
HyperNURBS just loves quads. I try not to fight it. Naturally, you can't always avoid triangles. However, when you've got no choice, use them sparingly or stick them on a place in the mesh that won't be often seen. So, if I have head model and I need to use a triangle or two I tend to hide them at the back of the skull or behind the ears. They never pop up on the actual face since I'm following a edge/face loop workflow.

3. so before i choose one of the 3 poses of the model i must know at all which pose my character will have once modelled, right?
For a lot of people, its an issue of preference. Everybody has their own style of modeling. Everybody has their own way of laying down polys and edges. What you need to be aware of is the extreme poses and how they'll be affected by the way you lay out your polys. You need to watch out for pinching, bulging, & folding. Some of that can be remedied with careful weighting or edge placement.

Another reason to choose your default pose carefully is the actual edge weighting. One of the reasons why few models are created with the arms all the way down and the legs all the way together is that painting your weights in those tight spots can be tricky. With the limbs spread out a bit, you have more room to paint weights without accidentally messing with other areas.

Of course there are other reasons to choose your default pose carefully.

4. I dont want animate the character just rig it to have all freedom to move it and change the positions of the single body parts like arm, finger etc... you know?
I understand you completely. You want a basic bones/skin setup with as few controls as possible. For what you want, you should be able to get away with just a basic skeleton, vertex maps, and some restrictions. You won't have the same ease of control as you would with a full rig, but you should still be able to crank some poses out.

or what tools you use to make it more detailed???
I use the basic edge cutting tools such as the knife or edge cut. I also rely heavily on my loop & ring selection tools. In some cases, I might even bevel an edge.


Anyway, I'm not sure if any of that even made sense. I've been staring at the PC all day. :)

crackle
08-08-2006, 10:45 PM
@cookepuss -stop answering questions and finish the Tutorial!:scream:

:)

FR33K
08-09-2006, 02:53 PM
at least i will finish it ;-)

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~mimura/tutorials/index2_e.html (http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/%7Emimura/tutorials/index2_e.html)

what does this guy in step 13 mean with "...change the Symmetry object into a single object for a while..."

how can i convert a symmetrie objekt for a while only ??? i dont understand this point as many of the steps due to the bad english of this chinese guy :-(

should i have opened an extra thread for this question?

Damsel
08-09-2006, 03:17 PM
Click the green checkmark behind your symmetry object in the object manager changing it to a red X. Your symmetry will disappear and you will only see half of the object. When you want to see it all again, click that red X and it will reappear like magic. ;-)

FR33K
08-09-2006, 03:34 PM
Click the green checkmark behind your symmetry object in the object manager changing it to a red X. Your symmetry will disappear and you will only see half of the object. When you want to see it all again, click that red X and it will reappear like magic. ;-)

hehe I know of that magic Damsel thats not the question furthermore I dont think this chinese guy is meaning what you speak of, because if he would mean that why does he has on his screenshots a deactived symmetrie but he has a left and right face on this image http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~mimura/tutorials/capture/s_13_2.jpg (http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/%7Emimura/tutorials/capture/s_13_2.jpg)

so if the symmetrie would be turned off by this guy there wouldnt be a whole face just a part of it... so that cant be the solution...

I uploaded my face with turned on symmetrie but i did not use inner extrude like this guy coz i would get a crap result if i would use symmetrie the same time so i did all cuts manually hehe check this out is this ok or would you improve it or delete some edges???

ok doesnt matter anymore guyz thx for help but i used my imagination and creativity to bypass this tutorial failure :P

any suggestions to a newbie to make teeth ??? :D

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9290/mouthjm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Andoy
08-09-2006, 06:39 PM
In step 13 what the author says is answered in step 16 when he says select half the mesh and delete it , then add symmetry again.

laiels
08-09-2006, 07:04 PM
The author wants you to click on the symmetry object and make it editable thus making it a whole mesh where you can edit on both sides of the character.

Afterwards later on, you will once again delete half of the mesh and put it back into a symmetry object.

FR33K
08-09-2006, 10:36 PM
thx guyz for your help, if the head is done i show here;-) and will make far better and more clear tutorial , btw. i luv boxmodeling :)

FranOnTheEdge
08-12-2006, 11:05 AM
thx guyz for your help, if the head is done i show here;-) and will make far better and more clear tutorial , btw. i luv boxmodeling :)

Good. I look forward to seeing it.

FranOnTheEdge
08-12-2006, 11:06 AM
My only caveat regarding that "Joan of Arc" tutorial is that it's too straight forward. That's great for newbies, but he really doesn't explore the notion of muscle loop based topology for anything other than the face. For animatable characters, that's an oversight. Still, that tutorial is probably your best entry point into character modeling.

I've been putting together a JoA-level tutorial myself, based on one of the characters from my film project. It'll cover stuff such as conceptualization, planning, modeling, texturing, hair, & rigging. I've already got most of my screenshots taken, which was easy since I save incrementally. I just have to write the copy for that, which takes time. I'll see what I can do about writing the copy this coming weekend.

I can't wait, oooh rock on!

Two new character tutorials for C4D - love this place!

cookepuss
08-12-2006, 04:12 PM
For the tutorial, I decided to use the character I'm working on now instead of the one I had planned. Of my core cast of 4 characters, "Samantha" represents the middle ground in terms of complexity & design. The other three were either too straight forward (eg. "Tim) or way too complex (eg. "Lucy" or "Bounty") for the sake of this tutorial.

In contrast to the more realistic environments in which they'll act, the characters for this flick lean toward the toony end of the spectrum. Hence the proportions & simplified ears. At the moment, I'm tweaking Sam's edge flow along the back/shoulder & abdominal region. I want to do that before I procede to add in any more detail. Shouldn't take more than a half hour though.

The attached pic is SDS level 1 on a fairly low poly cage. What you see really only represents two afternoons. The face took longer than the body or hands. I was working from a pretty rough sketch & DaVinci I am not. :) I haven't set her teeth in place yet, although they're done too.

I know. Doesn't look like much yet. It will soon enough.

FR33K
08-12-2006, 04:22 PM
SDS1 means Sub Divided level one in renderer or in view editor?? and the nice mesh you show us , did you "C" convert the hypernurb where the poly mesh was subordinated??

Would you pls. so kind and make me a screenshot of the modelmesh(like this old image here: http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9290/mouthjm8.jpg ) and not of the Hypernurbs? that would interest me more so i could learn how you arrange the polys etc... :)

cookepuss
08-12-2006, 05:11 PM
The SDS level is set to 1 just for this render. The actual render level will pobably be about SDS level 2 so I don't end up with faceted head morphs.

As for the ear, I opted for a hybrid Dash/Lilo type toony design instead of something more realistic. (I actually found toon ear modeling to be trickier. Hard to find a good toon ear that doesn't distract.)

I used HN weights along the inside edge loop of the ear and around select edges of the lips. Just to remove some of the softness without resorting to additional edge loops.

Here's the the unsmoothed cage, along with the selected poly loops. Not saying my way is the perfect way or that I'm the master. That's just what worked for me. Again, this is still a WIP. Stuff is changing by the minute.

crackle
08-12-2006, 09:53 PM
awesome job !!

watching with anticipation!!

how about next, you make apocolypse, like your avator...

ozmackem
08-12-2006, 11:02 PM
Apologies if this has been posted in the thread, I did look :)

http://www.creativecow.net/articles/labelle_jannis/head_ee/

It's head modelling only, but I foun dit really useful.

FranOnTheEdge
08-13-2006, 02:00 PM
For the tutorial, I decided to use the character I'm working on now instead of the one I had planned. Of my core cast of 4 characters, "Samantha" represents the middle ground in terms of complexity & design. The other three were either too straight forward (eg. "Tim) or way too complex (eg. "Lucy" or "Bounty") for the sake of this tutorial.

In contrast to the more realistic environments in which they'll act, the characters for this flick lean toward the toony end of the spectrum. Hence the proportions & simplified ears. At the moment, I'm tweaking Sam's edge flow along the back/shoulder & abdominal region. I want to do that before I procede to add in any more detail. Shouldn't take more than a half hour though.

The attached pic is SDS level 1 on a fairly low poly cage. What you see really only represents two afternoons. The face took longer than the body or hands. I was working from a pretty rough sketch & DaVinci I am not. :) I haven't set her teeth in place yet, although they're done too.

I know. Doesn't look like much yet. It will soon enough.

Ah.

Oh.

Looks like you've completely shot way past my level of understanding even before you begin.

I can't even understand the questions, so no hope of understanding the answers. Ah well - hope everyone else enjoys it.

cookepuss
08-13-2006, 02:10 PM
Heheh... Let me clarify.

Point 1: The characters I'm referring to are from a short film I'm making with C4D. That work in progress above is being used not only for the tutorial, but also for the film.

Point 2: I chose this character because her rig is less complex than a couple of the other characters, who have stuff like wings and so forth.

Point 3: When I spoke of edge flow I was referring to basic edge/polygon loop based topology. In simpler terms, edge looping - as it relates to characters - is all about faking musculature through careful edge and vertex manipulation. One of the reasons behind this, as I've no doubt said before, is so that the characters deform better during animation.

Point 4: I was altering this edge/poly flow for both the abdominal and shoulder regions because of the aformentioned deformation issues. That shoulder blade area needed tweaking because it was going to bend all weird once she slumped her shoulders forward. The abdominal region needed tweaking only to allow for more detail and more edge cuts for when she bends forward.

Hope that clarifies what I was talking about a little.

enrique_david
08-14-2006, 12:44 AM
can't wait to see the tutorial!

soccerrprp
08-14-2006, 03:05 AM
Cookepuss,

I eagerly await the tut! Nice mesh!:)

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