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3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 06:34 PM
For an interesting and DIFFERENT fan bone tutorial take a gander at www.3dartz.com
More effective than standard fan bones. Easier and faster than smartskin. It's the truth!!!
Hash on!
:beer:
Mike Fitz

zandoria
01-22-2003, 06:49 PM
But if you're unhappy with it, and you return the CD for a promised refund, Mike will happily ignore your emails and never return your money!!!

You will have to go through a formal complaint with PayPal, but you will never see your money.

Mike will happily accept any suckers who are unfamiliar with rigging a "fan" and sell them a tutorial on his "cog" system.

But it is still just a fan bone, and it is a $30 waste of your money.

If Mike Fitzgerald would like for me to "shut-up", he can return my money like he promised...

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 07:03 PM
William, what do you have selective memory? Or did you forget about what you did to me? Had you just acted in a professional and respectable manner - I would have played ball.
Anyone interested in seeing what sort of professional William is please visit
www.3dartz.com/Shoulder.html

Now, this is all I'm going to say on this for now....
if you feel you can criticize my techniqueWilliam (which is different and better than regular fan bones), you're going to have to show some samples that perform as well or better than my samples. And then you can show us how you did it instead of the partial incomplete work you've offered.
Why don't you show us some samples of your Hippo man moving.... or maybe you have not finished smartskinning him.
Who knows.... but also, who cares.

:applause:

Mike Fitz

johnathan
01-22-2003, 07:31 PM
so, you unilaterally decided to penalize william $30 because he wrote a crushing review of your product. did your money back guarantee only cover people who were *mildly* unhappy with your product? :curious:

i can't speak to the quality of mike's tutorial, as my criticism of his marketing practices has recently compelled him to refuse my money.

in the end, i'm prolly better off.

-jon

ps: william's hippo guy (http://www.zandoria.com/tar.htm) kicks butt!

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 07:41 PM
Jon, I was waiting for this too.
Please point out to the great people of the hash community where the problem is with my marketing practices.
I send a couple emails here and there about a product that is different and a product that works....
I mean you are a typing contradiction.
At one time you say it's my marketing practices.... Show us or shut up.
the next time you're saying I'm not allowed to offer a product because I have not payed my dues. - what the heck are you talking about? What dues? Is this a frat? Are dues like a code red? It's not in the manual but it's just understood.
Let's see some moving joint samples from you.
Ans. the questions.... until then you're blowing smoke.
Mike

walasek
01-22-2003, 07:49 PM
Mike,

From your post here it almost sounds like you purposely didn't refund someone's money (because they hurt you in some way). If this is the case, then I would have to say that shows bad business practice. If that is not the case, then maybe you better clarify your return policy.

I'm not trying to take sides, but your post sounded kinda bad (business wise).

johnathan
01-22-2003, 07:51 PM
that's fair... this is a new list. my argument, in a nutshell, is here:

http://www.bluemoonrising.com/darkly/word.html

if people really want to hear every word i and others have written on this tired subject, they can visit the killernuts archive:

http://venice.killernuts.org/animaster/list.php3?qType=contents&qLogic=OR&query=cogs+3dartz

i can't add anything more to the record.

-jon

zandoria
01-22-2003, 07:59 PM
Once you offered to refund my money, I admitted to you that my criticism went a little overboard. I took-down the "critique" movie, and I sent you the action file--because you asked me to, under the pretense that you needed to examine it in order to correct any flaws in your rig.

I emailed you the file, and I mailed you your disk back the next day, first class.

I refrained from discussing it any further on the list, since you had promised me a refund, I figured you were all right, and that I was wrong for trashing you.

As the weeks dragged by, I kept checking my mail, but no refund. I emailed you--no response. I emailed again--no response.

A few weeks later you post an outrageous defense of your product full of suppositions about my motives, and speculation of why I use the "Fitzman" character on the disk and not the "McKnuckles" character.--which you claim wouldn't have "popped" the way the Fitzman character did. This personal attack on me was completely untrue--and you knew it. You posted your defense, but didn't put your "McKnuckles" through the identical action (that I had sent to you to examine, at your request). In fact, you only wanted the action file so that you could try to fake a defense of your worthless product.

I contacted Paypal--too much time had gone by, but they promised to add my complaint to your file. Meanwhile, I have no way to get my money back from you.

Everytime I see you soliciting your product, I email you and remind you that you've yet to send me my $30. No response.

Whether or not you think my opinion of your rig is fair, unfair, biased, whatever. You have not lived up to your obligations as a businessman. You promised me a refund if I returned your disk. I did.

I returned your disk. I took down my critique.
I accused you of being a "con man" in my original review of your "cog joint" tutorial. But you turned out to be worse than that...

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 08:04 PM
Well actually in the legalesse it states that there are no refunds. Just replacements.
That being so, it's up to me about refunds.
I will, on a case to case basis, give a refund.
But Williams intentions were to absolutely halt sales by depicting me as a fraud without giving the material a chance.
That's just wrong. And it was blatant too. You see he sent me the action file he made for that bogus movie and it was a total set up. Why, you ask? Throught out the arm movement he had elbows bending backwayrds, arms moving out of the range of motion....
That model was to be used as an intro to the instructions.... I mean, the chest is wider then the lenght of the arms!!!!!
C'mon.
What can I say...
I'm not careless... I had this information reviewed and I was nice enough to turn my head from this.
Now I hear he wants to write a book!!!! That would explain his change of attitude. He's basically trying to do a pr job for himself.... so that when the book comes out (yeah okay) no one remembers the rotten things he did.
Well guess what. I'll be there. You can believe it.
Mike

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 08:10 PM
William, the action file you used is the best evidence of your malitious intentions.
It is doing things that people can't do. If you want me to I'll post screen caps from it and post it
to further support my gripe.
Bottom line is this..... William didn't like what I was doing and went to extremes to stop me, just because
he didn't like the idea of offering products on the hash elist.
William, seriously, think about it. Are you suprised that I'm treating you like a kid. - Ans. that.
Mike

zandoria
01-22-2003, 08:23 PM
You specifically asked me to send you back the disk, and that when I did you would send me back my money.

I don't know or care what "legalese" you're referring to, but where I'm from the word is "Liar". You are a liar.

All of my tutorials are free. In fact I have posted my feelings about what I think of "paid tutorial" prior to you coming out with yours. That's why you claimed (fairly) that I was prejudiced against your product. I'm not writing a book...

I will stop hounding you when you live up to your promise.

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 08:32 PM
Dude, so you are admitting that you didn't give the product a shot.
That you were biased.
And now you are saying that I have wronged you.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Someone just posted and interesting thing to the hash list that your tute was incomplete. That was the first thing I thoought when I read it. I just wanted someone else to point it out.

That is the difference between a paid tute and a free tute.

As for my product...... you can't deny this.... It works and what I say on my web page is true.
My product works. You can continue to say what you want, but you can't change the fact that it works.
Also, when do we get to see the hippo move? I bet you can't do anything with it cause it is taking you soooo long
to set smartskin up.
Is anyone else reading this besides me, jon and william? Probably not, but I can't blame them. This convo needs to take place in a bar over some beers!

Mike

walasek
01-22-2003, 08:39 PM
Im still reading this basically because I'm getting a good laugh at it.

Mike, you basically admit your policy of exchanges, but have not returned an exchange for the cd William has sent you or money back - basically breaking your agreement. (I am assuming since you haven't argued the point that William did send you the CD and his files).

In fact - you *have* wronged him, By your own "legaleese".

User's express different opinions about products that they have received, some like it, some don't. Some post good reviews, some post bad reviews. It's the business game.

Send him his $30 back, or send him a "replacement" CD. If you send him his $30 back, you can always say he just took a quick look at it and thats what his opinions are based off of. If you send him the replacement Cd, then be prepared for criticism...

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 09:10 PM
If I'm a liar William, then what the heck are you?
You just admitted that you were biased before you bought it.
So you bought the cd for the sole purpose of gaining leverage in an argument to the tune of
"I bought this product and it does not work."
You knowingly lied about your expereince in order to manipulate the perceptions of others.
I business terms- other potential customers. In legal terms.... we'd be discussing this in NY small claims court.

You are a liar
and
a despicable member of our community.

You seem like that type that checks emails every second of the day. Attention starved.
Again, I ask for wireframe renders of your hippo matching my characters movements.
I'm calling you out. Here's your chance for attention.
And Jon at http://www.bluemoonrising.com/darkly/
you should feel free to do the same. I've seen nothing from you guys. I'm getting the feeling that you are all talk and no show.

johnathan
01-22-2003, 09:16 PM
hey mike... check the timestamps on *your* messages... it seems you have little else to do today as well. :rolleyes:

you, however, just seem starved for abuse.

:wip: :wip: :wip:

-jon

3DArtZ
01-22-2003, 09:25 PM
Yeah, I know it's a slow day. I'm just going through some venting!
I'm am now leaving.... but I admit I really like this forum.
Kinda like a new toy. Anyhows.... Still waiting for you guys to dazzle me with your skills.
Instead of just saying how my "marketing" practices make my joint set up not work.
I mean, you guys are grasping at straws.
At some point in the future someone else just like me is going to approach the list with a new helpful product.
And I hope that my expereince will make it easier for people who want to make knowledge available to people who want to learn... And hopefully you guys will be a thing of the past.
While the hash community is going through some changes.... I'll be there until I check off planet.

Mike

ruscler
01-22-2003, 09:36 PM
Mike what are you doing buddy!

You dont need this, is giving up your integrity worth $30, your better then that!! Ask yourself what have you done to encourage your hash mate to keep plugging away on their project? Your like a few sentence of calling them a loser, and you dont need that on your character either. Do the peacefull thing and give them what they want, and avoid stripping of one character. This is making both parties look bad and he admitted that the trashing he did to you was wrong. And I know your man enough to follow thru what is the right thing to do.

"be peacefull toward all men as far as it depend on you"

zandoria
01-22-2003, 09:43 PM
Give me my money back!

If I need to prove my commitment to the A:M community, I will gladly run over you with my car.

Any challenge from you is silly. I have seen your work. You have seen mine. we both have websites.

Since you didn't give me my money back as promised, and have no intention too-- Let anyone else who considers buying your product think twice about YOUR idea of customer service.

As for community service to A:M, the community think what they will...
:thumbsdow

JBarrett
01-22-2003, 10:38 PM
One thing I find interesting is that Mike hasn't yet responded to the claim that he offered a refund to William.

Regardless of what you think of his motives, Mike, did you offer to give him his money back? If so, why hasn't it been done? It sounds like William has done a lot for you in good faith...apologizing for being overbearing in his crit, taking down the crit page, sending the action file at your request, etc. When is there going to be some good faith shown on your side? At this stage, I think the issue has very little to do with his opinion of your tutorial or his ability to match your cogs with anything he's done, and everything to do with keeping your word as a business owner.

Regardless of what the "legalese" says, William claims that you offered a refund. If you made no such offer, then say so. If you did, then explain why you haven't followed through.

Hookflash
01-22-2003, 11:35 PM
William should get his refund, regardless of his intentions. Businesses shouldn't refuse a refund because their feelings were hurt. This alone makes me want to steer clear of any future products you release.

Dearmad
01-23-2003, 02:59 AM
Refund or replacement regardless of his hurt feelings.

Made me keep clear of this "product." I would never subject myself to doing "business" with someone so willing to act so rudely in public regardless of his motivations.

Having been a business owner before, I *do* expect irate customers who feel cheated (whether they are or not) to try to vindicate their situations.

Fun thread nonetheless, and fun to watch it play out without insta-smiting ala Steve. :wavey:

3DArtZ
01-23-2003, 03:48 AM
Look this whole refund issue.... It's between me and Sutton - that's it. End of story.
I am a fair man, but this is not as black and white as it may seem.
There is a much bigger issue here than $30. I don't care.... I'll take the stigma is this particular case.
Here is the real issue -
This guy didn't like what I was doing. Angered by positive press the item was getting from users.... He purchased the cd with the intentions of bashing it with the hopes of destroying consumer interest in the cd(which nullifies him as a legit customer). So whooptidooo he may have prevented some people from buying the cd. Whatever, the cd has paid for itself and the materials/website - and that's it.
The problem is this. He has lied, gone to great lenghts to do so, to manipulate individuals decisions. There is nothing more heinous in a communications forum than that. That is why he is treated like a child.
I've gotten countless emails about this clown - about how he harrasses anyone that even mentioned something positive about the cd. I've seen him bash people for taking part in OUR community. Causing people to be hesitant to take part. Cursing at us. This is not acceptable.
This guy is a bully.
So now what. He wants to run me over in his car. Well Vrooooom Vroooooom!
I'm still calling this dude out. I want to see your Hippo Man move about. I've only seen him standing. I want the wireframes so you can show us how good you are. To see what you think gives you the right to drop the email hammer on people.
And for the record, I don't enjoy this situation at all.... but if he did this to someone else, who offered a legitamate product that delivers what it advertises.... I'd be just as anti Sutton as I am now. I don't want to be manipulated by anyone's lies... and I'm shocked that others are so willing to look past this. Are people looking past this?

Natess44
01-23-2003, 03:54 AM
It was bad enough on the maillist! Forget what he said and give him the money back that you promised. If your product is truly good then it'll show and it'll survive the attack. If it's junk it'll show too. By not giving him a refund your just showing to your other potential custumers how much you care about his oppinions and him in general. You'll save alot of time and grief if you just give him the refund. You could also study your system to see if you can make any improvements.

Dearmad
01-23-2003, 04:29 AM
3dartz,

You have strange idea that purchasing a product in order to bash someone illegitimizes the consumer. It doesn't. It happens all the time. You put something in the *market* then it's in the *market.* Intel buys AMD's all the time, and Ford owns a few GM vehicles.

If he libelled you, and has hurt your business, sue. Even if he is a bully, pretending you're doing this for other's protection is sorta silly.

And BTW: I would *never* treat a child the way you're treating him. Even as pissed as I can get at some of the kids I work with, I don't take it upon myself to punish them outside of the rules of civility. Returning his $30 and then filing a suit against him (with your proof) would be a far better way to treat a child.

That would have kept you on my respect list, since then I would have faith in your business practices. But, you said it yourself, you're willing to take the stigma. So, enjoy it.:shrug:

penguinpavilion
01-23-2003, 04:49 AM
There is a much bigger issue here than $30. I don't care.... I'll take the stigma is this particular case.

Well, that stigma might keep me from ever ordering from you, period. And yes there is a bigger issue: TRUST. What if I am not happy with the product? Are you going to say I only intended to bad mouth you, so I don't deserve a refund, or exchange either.

Dude, you need to lighten up. People can think for themselves, and if they see you staying cool, refunding money, and conducting business as usual, people will likely listen to the positive reviews. You have fueled this to the point that I
would be surprised if you sell any more CD's, and thats a shame if the technology is as good as you claim. Calling people out on a d*@# measuring contest will not help your case either. It just makes you look more manic.

Step back, take a chill pill. Quit taking things so seriously, and let the users who like your work be your best advertising. If your technology is half what you claim user work will be all you need to banish the criticisms.

Everybody bad mouths microsoft, and look at them!

On second thought, disregard that. Keep taking things so seriously. The only reason I have been continuing with this thread is the entertainment value of your rants.

ciao

jaymackey
01-23-2003, 06:43 AM
Bob sells frisbees out of his home, and has a good reputation in his community. Virtually everyone likes the frisbees he sells, even though they cost $30. One day, Tom buys one of Bob's frisbees. Tom begins to tell everyone in the community that Bob's frisbees don't fly, and attempts to demonstrate this to the neighborhood by throwing the frisbee incorrectly.

Many members of the community respond that they are happy with the frisbees they bought from Bob. Bob is upset with Tom, but offers Tom's money back if he will return the frisbee. Tom returns the frisbee, but Bob learns that Tom has been incorrectly throwing the frisbee, convincing some of the neighbors that Bob's frisbees don't fly.

At this point Bob could have graciously returned Tom's $30 dollars, demonstrated to the community that his frisbees do fly, and possibly received a net benefit from the publicity generated by the whole affair. However, angered by the lost sales, he refused to return Tom's $30. In doing this Bob gave Tom extra incentive and a powerful moral argument in his continued harassment of Bob and his frisbee shop.

Now the issue was no longer whether Bob's frisbees could fly, and the fact that most users of Bob's frisbees were enthusiastically praising them didn't really matter. The point debated by many in the community was whether Bob was right in keeping Tom's money. Now, every time Bob went out to try to sell some frisbees, Tom always popped up and told everyone how Bob's frisbees don't fly, and if you try to get your $30 dollars back, Bob will just keep it.

Undoubtedly, Bob's frisbee sales were hampered by Tom's statements. In the end, the damage to both men's reputations far exceeded the value that either one of them could have placed on the $30 over which they fought. Bob never chose to take the high road, give back the $30, and get back to selling frisbees. Friends and neighbors of both men avoided them, not desiring to get caught up in the feud between the two men.

Eventually, their tale was immortalized by the Academy-award winning director, Martin Scorcese, in a movie in which none of the characters are motivated by anything other than rabid racism and bigotry, murderous greed, lust for power, and an all-consuming desire for revenge.

In a related note, the movie lost a record 300 million dollars, which was primarily due to the decision to use Martin Hash's Animation:Master for the special effects and CG shots. Despite this setback, Scorcese and Hash are teaming up to produce Telepresence II.

dragonfollower
01-23-2003, 06:43 AM
Well, and here's the thing...what is it benefiting you by doing this? Sure, he may be a bully who purposely bought the software to falsely prove that it wouldn't work and thereby thwart your efforts of selling it to the AM community.

But think about it...

Isn't this thread causing the same effect?

Believe me...nothing infuriates me more than people that lie and manipulate in order to accomplish something. But think about this logically. You pay the man his $30 dollars, then he has nothing to complain about.

Regardless of who is right and who is wrong. The money has leverage in this argument.

If you don't pay him the money you will forever be painted as the bad guy regardless of whether you really are or not.

Get the money problem out of the way and let the product stand on its own.

-bRiAn

Hookflash
01-23-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by 3DArtZ
Here is the real issue -

<snip>



No, that is not "the issue". You just don't get it... Nobody cares how bad William made you feel. Hell, he could be Charles Manson, and it wouldn't make a difference. The simple fact of the matter is that *he* is the customer... You should be bending over backwards to make him happy. You DEFINATELY shouldn't tell him to send the CD back for a refund, and then cut off all communication without paying up. That's just suicidal business practice.

jaymackey: LOL!! :applause:

ruscler
01-23-2003, 05:16 PM
I am disappointed!

say what you want to say but both john and williams been on this list and even though they are more out spoken, but passionate about their work, they have proven to me that they rock as artist and inspiring to me. I do listen to them when they have something to say, and it does carry weight. So you had the chance to see the mesh of the hippo-man and your dissing him for the mesh. So not only he doesn't get his money back, but he also get tarnish for his work as well. Seem to me you got the better end of the dipshit character of the week.

I am not dissapoint with you , rather dissapointed with myself for losing faith that you have any willingness at all for redeeming yourself! and that there will ever be a time where the 2 of you could work this out!

ypoissant
01-23-2003, 05:40 PM
Not all busines peoples have the same code of ethics. There are some with which I would rather just not do business.

As a potential customer, I usually try to look at hints of business practices of those with whom I might want to do business with. That's usually why organism like "better business bureau" are in place. There is no smoke without fire. Usually when a business gets so much flame that is because something ethically wrong is going on there.

How about that: A business who builds a product based on common knowledge, advertize it as revolutionary while never giving any real proof of it. Claim out loud that it does really works but at the same time admits that the product actually does not really work with one of the product's accompanying models. And best of all, tells everybody that all of its customers are satisfied with the product while at the same time doing his own justice with those who are not so happy. Better be satisfied with the product or else you're in for a rough ride.

I like those public forum where one can be pushed to show the rest of the world who they really are. But in this case, did we really needed more proofs?

dfaris
01-23-2003, 06:04 PM
Well it would seem to me that if you gave him his money back he would not have anything to bitch about except for the fan bones that he thinks dont work and you could let your product prove him wrong.

I have not used your product so I dont know for sure but you said

"You see he sent me the action file he made for that bogus movie and it was a total set up. Why, you ask? Throught out the arm movement he had elbows bending backwayrds, arms moving out of the range of motion...."

It would seem to me that a good setup would not let the arm ben backwards or out of the range of movement?

I dont know how good your setup is but like I said you should give the money back and let the product stand on its own and imporve on it from the feed back you get from the people that use it. You should not end up in something like this so that it hurts your sales and could hurt you when/if you put out another product. With so many other things to pick from like Eggprops bone tuts and TSM why would people buy this when they read all this crap?

zandoria
01-24-2003, 12:12 AM
Today Mike Fitzgerald returned my money ($30 +.68 for shipping) for the "Joint Tutorial" CD.

Without re-hashing all that was said between us, I would like to apologize to Mike for the trashing that I gave his cog joint system, last Fall. I went way past the bounds of civility in my review, and I let my personal feelings about commercial tutorials prejudice my opinion of his product.
I only read through the CD materials in one evening, and I admit that it was unfair to publicly attack him, his company, or his product. It was unprofessional on my part, and I regret it. I returned all of his materials the next day, when he agreed to refund my money.
Today in an email discussion (which was much more civil in tone than our public name-calling), Mike described to me his cog system, and why it is more than just intermediate(fan)bones. I felt that his argument had merit, and I would like to share it with you:

"...the fan assembly is mimicking skin elasticity in the joint. That is the uniqueness of the joint. Is it still fan based. Yes. But traditional fan bones are not able to compete with cog performance...
...Fan bones affect the joint from the pivot point out(say the direction of the positive length of the bone.). In one direction. Cog joints dynamically affect the joint from the pivot out in every direction- just like how skin would stretch. So laying them flat in the same direction will never be able to give the same results as the cog.... "

Rather than going off "half-cocked", I should have written a more polite critique or maybe I should have just kept my big mouth shut. If anyone who read my "review" last fall was persuaded not to buy this product based only on my comments, then I hope you will re-consider it.
I still think that the orientation of the fan bone is unimportant to the joint blending (because of using "compensate mode" to offset the constraint), so I won't be using the cog orientation in my fan bones. But I said things in my review much more hurtful than that.
For the damage I caused to Mike Fitzgerald, I am sorry. For the damage that I caused to my own reputation, I'm sorry.
Now that Mike has refunded my money, this issue is over. I don't expect Mike to get over being angry about the things that I said, but I do apologize.

Hookflash
01-24-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by zandoria
Today Mike Fitzgerald returned my money ($30 +.68 for shipping) for the "Joint Tutorial" CD.

That's good to hear:)

dfaris
01-24-2003, 02:10 AM
Good Job Mike that is the way to deal with stuff like this.


zandoria

Its good of you you step and tell everyone one that you messed up doing what you did.

Good job guys

ruscler
01-24-2003, 03:19 AM
Okay thats great reparation on both parties, now can we send you two to the middle east and see what you can do there? you know relate to others and spread what you have learn here!

jaymackey
01-24-2003, 03:37 AM
Wow, awesome. :applause:

Dearmad
01-24-2003, 05:07 AM
Just for old time's sake:

-ahem-

Ok, people, this thread needs to end NOW before it gets out of hand. :rolleyes:

JBarrett
01-24-2003, 02:57 PM
Great to see the resolution, guys. Kudos to both of you!

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