kenneth brilliant tutorial

[KingMob]

putting this on my to do list, thats cool as hell.

[BazC]

Another great link, thanks Cerrato, I find these kind of tuts a little hard to follow though, I can't always see what's been changed. Video tut's are even worse, they flash by before you can figure out what's going on. Pity, these seem to be taking over from traditional word and pics!

Aren't Ken Brilliant's characters amazing?

Baz

[fig]

his stuff is amazing :thumbsup:

on that tute in particular, from step 3 to 4 where it goes from a cube to a more complex shape, is that just subdividing then moving edges to get that shape? sorry for the newbie question, i'm just starting to figure out the interface here. thanks.

chris

[BazC]

Fig, step 3-4 is just a smooth, step4-5 has had points moved around (use tweak in the tools menu) He's made it a little more complicated than it need be IMO, though he may be using Mirai or Nendo so the work flow may be slightly different.
Instead of extruding or mirroring the cube and then squashing it (steps 2/3) I'd just select one edge press g to select an edge ring, press 2 to add points and then c to connect them. A matter of taste I suppose. I'd also suggest you loopcut and delete one side and create a vitual mirror before you start pulling points around (step5) it'll halve the work you have to do!

Baz:thumbsup:

[fig]

awesome, thanks baz. so smoothing a model basically just subdivides it/increases the number of polys? and i'm guessing loopcut would result in just eliminating half the model? virtual mirror i can figure out :)

chris

[BazC]

Yep, smooth subdivides the mesh and makes it rounder, loopcut (edge menu) cuts the model in half you then have to delete one half (backspace)

Baz

[fig]

cool, thanks. i'll do some playing and i'm sure be back with more q's :)

chris

[SGT.Squeaks]

We should post all good tutorials and make this beast a sticky!!!

[visualboo]

Originally posted by cerreto
for those who havent tried it yet this tutorial is great and is a good way to warm up in wings




http://www.fuse9.com/Kens_Ghoul/




lets have your 's

Trav, If you can show me ONE feature that wings has that max doesn't I'll give you a big hug and say.... "cool" ;)

:beer:

edit: sorry, this isn't a flame in any way. We were talking on IM about this erlier

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by visualboo
Trav, If you can show me ONE feature that wings has that max doesn't I'll give you a big hug and say.... "cool" ;)




sure , Wings doesnt crash :D

[jeb]

maybe its me but i havent seen this in max:

select: more, less, region, edge loop, edge ring, similar.

this are very useful for modeling. if max has them, let me know and ill sure feel stupid for not noticing them.

[levin]

Trav, If you can show me ONE feature that wings has that max doesn't I'll give you a big hug and say.... "cool

bridge?


for those who missed the martin krol videos...





cgland (http://news.cgland.com/index.html?code=view&no=1551&category_1st=3&category_2nd=700000&start=0)

[visualboo]

are you guys all kidding? serious?

Bulldog: Max has 5 million more features. I'll take a crash every once in a while for all the power.

jeb: Oh you mean. Grow, Shrink, Region? we have element, edge loop, edge ring, similar. It's ok to feel stupid btw ;)

levin: Connect.

Is that all you guys got? ;)

[fig]

a free fully functioning modeler? :D

chris

[visualboo]

ah... nice one.

[visualboo]

ok ok... besides the "free" part. The whole reason this came up is because he jumped online and yelled at me Wings is the best modeler, HANDS DOWN!... wait wait --->

"cerreto: wings is the best poly modeler out there hands down man !"

ok, this is coming from a LW user. bah. I thought LW was the best poly modeler? no you say? wait... here is another quote --->

"cerreto: the ability to select both edge rings and edge loops i honestly dont think you have tried the latest version of it man !"

What? Man if only I had edge loops and rings in max... The world would be mine, ALL MINE!. Maybe he's just now taking that lw blanket off his head. Max has had this for soooo long (yes martin, I know not the "longest" ;) ).

hehe.... Lets get it on! :buttrock:

[dAfTiE]

How about tweak,or even better, tweak_s?
Try this in max...use a virtual mirror,and move an edge or a face into the seam thing...
Does it scale the element you're moving,or does it mess up the symmetry thing?

hmm...and how about almost weekly updates?
hmmm? You max guys get that ? ;)
and a nice, thoughtout,intuitive GUI ? that'd be nice to have in max too,no?

[SGT.Squeaks]

Originally posted by dAfTiE
and a nice, thoughtout,intuitive GUI ? that'd be nice to have in max too,no?


Thats what I like most about wings, it has a very easy to use interface. Everything you need is right there. The thing that turned me off from max is the pull down interface. And It has like four freakin bevels!!! I want just one bevel!!! :annoyed:

[visualboo]

Originally posted by dAfTiE
and a nice, thoughtout,intuitive GUI ? that'd be nice to have in max too,no?
whooo... back up the wagon. That aint no feature. That's a preference. And I really like the workflow in max thank you.

Could you expound a bit please? My symmatry works pretty nice. -->

Click here for my groovy symmetry movie - right click and save as. (http://www.visualboo.com/movies/helpers/symmetry.swf)

[dAfTiE]

The bit about the symmetry was actually an honest question...
Seems most apps,when you use symmetry,and move stuff into the mirror side,
it messes up the symmetry instead of scaling what you move.
Also,does Max allow you to work on both sides of your symmetry object and have the other side update?

I really find that helpfull...being able to just rotate around the model and tweak_s elements into place,
without having to think about which side is my mirror side.

I know next to nothing about max,all I know is I can't figure the UI out...almost feels unfinished to me...
Or like they just kept adding stuff and forgot to take obsolete stuff out...
It's just too cluttered for me,is all.

Off,course,it's not like wings can replace a seat of max,unless it's only used for modeling.

[Hookflash]

Originally posted by visualboo
Trav, If you can show me ONE feature that wings has that max doesn't I'll give you a big hug and say.... "cool" ;)

How 'bout "it's free"? That's a pretty nice feature... ;)

[nervous_twitch]

I've been using both Max and Wings for years. They are both good yes, but Wings is so FAST. It's crazy cool.

It just seems moot to argue over implemented features, since both programs have ways to add things you'd like (MaxScript or Erlang programming), so let's talk about functionality, ok?

There are few ways to mess up the technical aspect of a model. The winged edge system prevents crappy messed up polys and other things restrictive to creativeness.

And, I can hotkey all of my commands really easily. I don't hardly use the menus, because all I need are connect, move:free, and those wicked magnet functions. Max has huge lists and things that you can take days customizing your GUI. Not that this is bad, just faster in Wings (like everything else).

AutoUV is sweet too, but right now I use Max to tweak UVs.

But, Max still has all that rigging/texturing/animating stuff I love
so dearly.

<closes eyes and reaches arms out.....:D >

[Mauritius]

Something Wings has and Max hasn't is the ability to keep geometry guaranteed manifold while modeling (due to its internal winged-edge data-structure). This is a prequisite, if you like to render the geometry as a true subdivison surface in a RenderMan compliant renderer.

This, combined with fact that I can't think of anything needed in organic modeling which Max has and Wings hasn't, plus the fact that Wings is production-level stable, free and even open-source, led us to use Wings in several professional productions for organic modeling tasks.
I may add that we also have a big Max fan here, who switched to Wings for organic stuff, hint hint.

Oh, and there is another one: from a pure usability pov, Wings rules and Max sucks.
If you doubt, put any complete 3d newbie in front of Max and tell him to model a teapot/[insert your favorite, average complex beginner geometry here]. He won't be allowed to look up the docs or use the online help, nor ask questions to anyone.
Now repeat that experiment with Wings ... see what I mean? ;)

An exception would be, of course, if Max was the first 3d app you learned and you never seriously learned/used something else for a longer period (say, Maya, for a few months).
Basically this would render you a Max "Hillbilly", but I seriously doubt anyone cared if you produce great images using it. :beer:

Cheers + no offense,

.mm

[Joel Hooks]

I think the way tweak and the coordinate system work would be the main reason I prefer modeling organics in Wings3d. It seems to be incredibly intuitive in that regard, not to mention its a solid program with the express purpose of modeling. It has a great workflow that is easily worked with in a matter of hours.

I love 3dsmax. I think wings3d is a better organic modeler.

[SheepFactory]

Hey lets not turn this thread into Max vs Wings please.

I like wings because of its workflow , if someone else prefers some other workflow its perfectly fine.

Back to topic:

Are there any other tutorials out there like this one?


Ali

[visualboo]

Nice, excellent responses guys.

Oh, and there is another one: from a pure usability pov, Wings rules and Max sucks.
If you doubt, put any complete 3d newbie in front of Max and tell him to model a teapot/[insert your favorite, average complex beginner geometry here]. He won't be allowed to look up the docs or use the online help, nor ask questions to anyone.
Now repeat that experiment with Wings ... see what I mean?
Right... but what about the advanced user?



neeeeed sleeeepy

edit: Sorry Ali. I'm not bashing wings at all, I just like debate.

[nervous_twitch]

Are there any other tutorials out there like this one?

I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean compiled like this one? Or, do you mean timelapse videos. There are tons of those around.

[Fuzatron]

Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Are there any other tutorials out there like this one?


I'm the guy that converted Mr. Brilliants GIF into the Flash file.
((btw: He said he didn't mind :) ))

A guy named David Benton posted a link to one he did on the Wings forum a while back... it was of himself modeling a head.

I have converted some other GIFs for personal use. I would post some of them, but they are huge and I don't have permission from the authors. I will see if I can't dig up the links to the GIFs though... Oh yeah. They are not Wings but Mirai... but I still got a good bit out of them!

Glad you guys like the Flash version... I had almost forgotten I still had it on my site :p

[SheepFactory]

Man you did a great job vith the conversion , its the best way to view a tutorial i have seen so far.

Please let us know if you can post the others.

Ali

[BazC]

Here's a link to a conversion I did of a tut by Cerreto on Renderosity.

MOVED TO TUTORIAL STCKY THREAD!

Anyway, Enjoy!

Baz

[fig]

good stuff baz, thanks. i'll be sitting down to do this one this weekend :)

chris

[BazC]

You're welcome! :o)

Baz

[cerreto]

haha ! leave the comp off for a day and look what happens lol ! yeah i was trying to get oll boo to try out wings !


I like geting him going i do think that wings is a damn good modeler but like any other app it has its strengths and weakness more strength i think for organic modeling its easy ,clean and fast bjorn is very smart as well with not going for overkill but keeping it simple to use well thought out tools rather than throw everything at you

[Goon]

"If you doubt, put any complete 3d newbie in front of Max and tell him to model a teapot/[insert your favorite, average complex beginner geometry here]."
:applause: Damn thats funny. Max has a teapot button!!! Why i have no clue, but they do.

[nervous_twitch]

This is why:

The Utah Teapot (http://sjbaker.org/teapot/)

Yeah! Utah Rules!

[fig]

Originally posted by Goon
"If you doubt, put any complete 3d newbie in front of Max and tell him to model a teapot/[insert your favorite, average complex beginner geometry here]."
:applause: Damn thats funny. Max has a teapot button!!! Why i have no clue, but they do.

so you're saying it'd still be a race to see if they could find the teapot button before modeling it? ;)

chris

[Amphiblien]

Yeah!

Wings is great for everyone! A free powerful toolset that will only stimulate more competition, innovation and value in the marketplace. This is great regardless of your favorite tools.

I particularly appreciate it because it is inspired by killer edge modeling tools/workflow that I have been using for over a decade.




Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Hey lets not turn this thread into Max vs Wings please.

I like wings because of its workflow , if someone else prefers some other workflow its perfectly fine.

Ali

[Mauritius]

rig: perhaps you should read my original post more carefully again.
It said the task would be to model a teapot, not somehow create it.
If you had 'create pretty picture' button in max someday, I doubt anywone would call pressing this button "modeling", "texturing", and "rendering" -- don't you agree? :)

.mm

[tmt]

Wings has a different approach in data structure behind the interface. It is the so called "winged edge" technology. This is why max and wings is NOT compareable in simple terms. Correct me, if it isn't true, but I think max uses angle thresholds to determine edge loops or rings. Wings works differently. Nendo/Mirai is the only common 3d software using this technology. Max has a ton of features, but it is a mutant :) There was big step after 3d studio to max 1.0, but since then it is patched and patched and patched. Maybe if the basic elements were good enough, feature addition is a good thing, but working with max is a pain in the ass (to me :D)

Anyway, I've started 3d with Imagine (!), then I moved to LW (used it a lot), I worked with max (I still don't like it :D), and I'm working with maya now. But when I first saw Martin Kroll's tutorial movies, and I found wings, I'm modelling almost anything in it. Before I can't imagine how can one model an entire model in one viewport - now I can. And it is fast, it doesn't have tons of features what nobody, never use...

It is ok, if someone likes max or lw or xsi or maya, whatever, but try out the thing you want to criticize before doing it...

[fig]

mauritius: i was kidding :) (assuming i'm 'rig' ;))

chris

[UserDelta]

Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Are there any other tutorials out there like this one?


there are my video tutorials :) though they're for LW, i only use 2 tools which im sure are simple enough to mimic in other programs.

[marioucci]

hey visualboo, err, gene, i really want that hug:)

wings has and max doesnt:

smart highlights
visual display in a circle of the soft selection in tweak mode(also just hitting + and - to change it.
virtual mirror that allows u to manipulate both sides of the mirror.
also a 2 click setup for virtual mirror....
thats what i can think of right now.

so,.. should i buy a ticket to US for the hug or u want to meet Brazil mate?
LMAO!... seriously,
how are ya man?

cheers
loggie

[Laa-Yosh]

Originally posted by Mauritius
Something Wings has and Max hasn't is the ability to keep geometry guaranteed manifold while modeling (due to its internal winged-edge data-structure). This is a prequisite, if you like to render the geometry as a true subdivison surface in a RenderMan compliant renderer.


Max has this ability as well. It is called the Editable Polygon object, and it uses winged edge datastructure as well - there wouldn't be any other way to properly implement some of the Mirai style tools that Wings also has. The only difference is that Wings is also a solid object modeler.


This, combined with fact that I can't think of anything needed in organic modeling which Max has and Wings hasn't, plus the fact that Wings is production-level stable, free and even open-source, led us to use Wings in several professional productions for organic modeling tasks.
I may add that we also have a big Max fan here, who switched to Wings for organic stuff, hint hint.


You cannot yet use Wings to sculpt blend shapes, because you cannot check the transitions between them. This is a serious issue, at least for me. Note that the lack of proper proportional editing (magnets/soft selection) also rules out Maya for this task for me.


Oh, and there is another one: from a pure usability pov, Wings rules and Max sucks.
If you doubt, put any complete 3d newbie in front of Max and tell him to model a teapot/[insert your favorite, average complex beginner geometry here]. He won't be allowed to look up the docs or use the online help, nor ask questions to anyone.
Now repeat that experiment with Wings ... see what I mean? ;)


That depends on the user. Most people couldn't do anyithing in Nendo (and thus I suppose they'd fail with Wings as well) because of the clean interface. The context-sensitivity of the righ click menu has simply hid most of the functions from them.

However I also tend to prefer the Mirai style interface, being at least a bit advanced user ;). In fact, I sometimes go as far as to think that the whole implementation of this workflow in MAx was started by me when I kept bugging my pal Laszlo to write scripts for the functions I've seen in the Nendo demo... Delusions of grandeur, heh :D

[Laa-Yosh]

Originally posted by tmt
Wings has a different approach in data structure behind the interface. It is the so called "winged edge" technology. This is why max and wings is NOT compareable in simple terms. Correct me, if it isn't true, but I think max uses angle thresholds to determine edge loops or rings. Wings works differently. Nendo/Mirai is the only common 3d software using this technology.

As I've wrote it above, Max has winged edges too. It was introduced in Release 4 and it made Meshtools V2 possible - I actually still remember how we've exchanged emails with Laszlo about the angle threshold stuff while trying to do edge loops in Max 3.1, and then he told me that maybe R4 will be different. He was right and ended up getting famous for those scripts :)

I also think that XSI has winged edges too, by the way; and maybe even Maya. MJPolytools or what has loop and ring selections, although they might work on a different way.

[Laa-Yosh]

Last post on Wings and 3ds max I promise :)

AFAIK Gmax is free and has winged edges + Meshtools too. On the other hand there's no legal way to get your stuff into any other package because of file format restrictions ;)

[Qslugs]

Well I may as well chime in here as well seeing as everyone else has a opinion around here. First off I would like to say that wings works and it works well. I have been only using it for about two weeks now and for the most part am in love with it. I own LW, I use Maya on a daily basis, I am learning messiah:studio at home at night and I also used max 3.x (I think that was the version) exclusively for 7 months for both modeling an for animation. Normally I would only model in LW, LW has all the tools that Wings has in one way or another via a plugin or whatnot, and I would consider myself skilled when working with LW. When working in Max, I felt that it was mired down with redundancy. You can't complain that something isn't there. I think there was a min. of 5 ways to do the same thing, that's how it felt at least. Its all there, you can do anything with Max. And if it's not there you can get a plug-in for it. LW to a leser extent is getting the same way. What it comes down to is implementation. So far I have mentioned that both LW & Max have similar workflows to Wings (and of course nendo & Marai) but its how the program is laid out and implemented that make wings rock as hard as it does. Wings isn't mired in plugins & menus. While you don't need to go into menu's all the time in Max or LW, for some functions you need to go into a menu or window to change this that or the other thing. From my two week or so experience with Wings, I have learnd a workflow almost totally free of menus. This my friends is the way to learn 3D. Wings elegence lies in it's design and workflow. It was planned that way from day one whereas other apps are trying to fit a wings/nendo/marai workflow into their already present paradigm. Let me leave you all with this question: Why is it that Max, Maya and LW are all due for a major rewrite?

And best of all wings is free. So there is no reason to not use Wings as a companion app to your favorite 3d program.
So that there's my .02$

[Laa-Yosh]

Originally posted by Qslugs
While you don't need to go into menu's all the time in Max or LW, for some functions you need to go into a menu or window to change this that or the other thing. From my two week or so experience with Wings, I have learnd a workflow almost totally free of menus. This my friends is the way to learn 3D. Wings elegence lies in it's design and workflow. It was planned that way from day one whereas other apps are trying to fit a wings/nendo/marai workflow into their already present paradigm. Let me leave you all with this question: Why is it that Max, Maya and LW are all due for a major rewrite?


My UI layout is pretty similar to Wings in Max, it's been like that for almost 2 years now. Lots of keyboard shortcuts for selections, setting transform modes, and practically every modeling command in the Quad menu. It's all about customizing, which Max is pretty good at. Maya is said to be just as good although I can never accept that Marking menu stuff; and LW is the least flexible.

Also, you can't judge an app only on its modeling workflow. There are zillions of other issues, and what you want to do and how you want to do it with the app matters a lot as well.

[KingMob]

you can judge wings on its modeling workflow alone...cause thats what it is...A modler

:)


Now hush about max, what does that have to do with anything on this tutorial? you dont like wings? dont use it...I dislike max, so I don't use it. It's simple as that.

If you want a wings vs max discussion, start a new thread.

(not singling anyone out, this is to everyone)

[thedaemon]

I use max and its just fine :P I model in wings though :) .. "one big mob, oh yeah o yeah...." :airguitar

[Qslugs]

now look what I restarted. Actually I was stating that I liked wings over Max and LW. We should move this to another thread though since this is a bit off topic.

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