Plugin pricing

[oxygen_77]

Personally, I would have to say make your product bring a profit that you feel is adequate for the work that went in to it. If you worked on the plugin for 40 hours and you consider yourself to be a software engineer level II or III you could reasonably charge $40-60 an hour. This means that creating the plugin cost you $1600-$2400. If you were selling it to a single entity, that would be the price, but you expect to sell it to many people so divide the price by the number of people you expect to sell it to in any given month. If (like you say) this plugin is really great, then lets assume you sell it to 50 people per month. That puts the price around $32-$48. This method should give you a good idea of a starting price to work from. You may also want to keep in mind that after a year, you should probably reduce the price of the plugin by 1/3 to 1/2. I hope this helps!

[fig]

yeah, i'd agree. in order to pay out a decent amount of money for a plug-in it would REALLY have to be proven. also consider you've got very complete character animation solutions with things like messiah for under $300, you'd need to move to a price point that makes you seem like an affordable alternative. so my vote is "affordable".

chris

[uncommongrafx]

Put an introductory price on it. That way, it's affordable for all to begin with. If it earns it's worth in the long run then it would theoretically be worthy of a higher cost, thus avoiding the cheapie stigma.

Personally, I think the cheapies are the way to go. There is so much utility given in the lw community by the freebies, BIG TIME, and the commercial/shareware community that I believe NewTek's become spoiled. :shrug: That's another hairball...


I bet ACS4 was priced right to sell lots, now, at under a hundred bucks.
Lscript or true plugs (don't know how to say that without starting an argument.)

Since you've thrown this balloon out, throw the whole tool out for all to see. Much less theoretical. ;)
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

[eRP]

Hi,
thanks for asking.
I would like to share with you my experience.
I bought TreeDesign, Leaves Generator, Grass Generator.
I Know one of these days i'll buy ACS4. (I'm low on cash right now).
They all cost less then $100.
On the other hand, I don't think I will ever buy a plugin that costs half the price of Lightwave.
That does not mean that those that I bought aren't good. They are cheap and they are fantastic.

[Cman]

If it's really worth it you should charge a higher amount - keeping in mind competition like ACS4 and the like.

[Voxel57]

Thanks for the input!

We know what our break even is and all that so how many we have to sell at what price is easy.
Finding a price that lets everyone access it and lets us make money is another story.

The introductory pricing idea sounds good to me.

eRP I also own TreeDesigner and leave gen...LOVE UM!!
I also love the price.

ACS4 looks great and at a really good price.

Here is link to a temp page I put up. The full site should be up next week. Click on the image to enter.

Calcium (http://www.irrationalnumber.com)


Its just some screen shots of the plugin (Calcium). The pics are pretty large so you can see the bone placement.
A bit of a description for each at the bottom.
I will put up a full feature listing later.

Let me know what you think.

[Cman]

:surprised WHOA!!
Automagically place bones in a mesh??
That's amazing!
I didn't quite understand the "grouping" thing.
Do you have to set groups to a naming convention before running the plug? The part about setting up for an hour?

[CTRL+X]

Me? , Id charge a fortune for it, give it that " Hey, this is expensive , its gotta be good" stigma,, THEN, have a blowout sale 60% off and charge what you wanted originally



Aint capitalism sweet!!!???

[Voxel57]

Hey Cman.

Yeah setting up the groups in modeler (groups are usually associated with OBJ files) you might know them as "Parts".
Originally we tried letting it place bone on its own but it puts them everywhere.

So the work flow is this.

1. make model.

2. select polys and use the "Change part name" function
in Modeler (7.5 only, you have to use surface names in 6.5).

3. Send to layout.

4. Run Calcium.

5. Bone are placed.

From the info we gather about the polys inthe groups you will also be able to auto assign weight maps.

[iratethemad]

interesting very interesting

DADY LIKES!!!

cool plug

[uncommongrafx]

I'm gonna say what you all wanted to say,
"Shit!"


Umm, I may not be able to afford this. :(


F&%%$%%% awesome! And to work with ACS4 to save re-use rigs...

:drool:
:drool:

Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

[eRP]

Voxel57,
why don't you put a high price and sell it to CGTalk members at 10%.
I think we would be satisfied.
What about 5%.

No kidding.

I think you have quite a few customers for this Plugin.

Congratulations

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by Voxel57
Hey everyone!

I have a question.
Does pricing a plugin to be affordable by a wide range of users (Hobbist to Pro) stigmatize it?
We have some very cool bone creation and editing tools coming out and are in the middle of a pricing argument.
I believe that keeping the price of a plugin affordable (while still making a profit) will not give users the impression that it must not be very a capable tool when it actually is.
Others feel differently that a higher price on a good product helps bring an air of worth to all of us sheep. (I added the "sheep" thing cause thats what it sounds like to me)
I know this is basically a loaded question to be asking potential customers, (like: have you stopped beating your kids? yes or no?)
so please try to be straight with your answers.

Thanks in advance for the help.

I dont think price is really an issue for me. I look at it two ways:
Wants vs Needs.
If its something I would like to play with but dont have a specific need I go the free or very cheap ones. Pretty much anything under $100.00 Ill buy just to check it out.
If its something I REALLY need Ill buy it regardless if its half the cost of LW or not. Most need situations for me have the cost of necessary plugins factored in.
There are some plugins that some have given out for free that I cant live without anymore. Ive either sent the author some money or something else of value. :)

[Psyhke]

I'm not really an animtor, so I probably shouldm't be the one asking this question, but I'm curious as to the bit about part names. I'm wondoring, how "forgiviing" is the part name aspect in relation to the creation of the bones-- do you have to have a part name for every poly in order to get a complete skeleton? In others words, how is it different than just making skelegons if you have to select and name all the polys with parts names accurately. That is if you do have to do such?

[studiomiguel]

I think high cost plugins must be better. That's the conditioning that my consumer society has enstilled in me.

Until pressed however, I won't buy these plugins... opting instead to use cheaper (often free) solutions even if they offer less functionality or a lesser refined interface.

I own lot's of sub-$100 plugins.. but few $300-$500 plugins. I just can't justify the funtionality.

m.

[Voxel57]

Hi Psyhke.

Actually its a really good question.
First as far as Part names go you do have to name every poly.
If some are left unnamed Calcium will try to place a bone there.
Although the next release will allow you to skip areas.
The difference from placing bones manually or adjusting a canned rig to fit is speed and accuracy. Models that would require a good amount of bones could suck up your time pretty fast..
Hey there are plenty of times when a few bones would do and placing a few skelegons would be easier. To me any bone placement in LW layout is a pain in the butt! The addition of skelegons has made that better but it can take a while to place those too. Or adjusting a canned rig could be the way to go for a project.
One other thing that Calcium does is allow you to place bones in "Posed" geometry. Another words you dont have to use the old arm out legs spread arrangement that typically makes it easier to bone an object the traditional way. You can if you want actually model so the mesh will be less likley to fold or crease when moved into a life like position.
I hope that answers your question.
We see this as a tool not an end all be all solution. I have only been using 3D for animation for about 10 years ( in engineering before that). I have never found that one product is the answer to everything, that's why I think calling them tools is very appropriate.

[BeeVee]

Originally posted by Voxel57
Its just some screen shots of the plugin (Calcium). The pics are pretty large so you can see the bone placement.
A bit of a description for each at the bottom.
I will put up a full feature listing later.

Let me know what you think.

You do know that there was already a plug-in called Calcium? You can find it on Flay: http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=827

Don't wish to do you down - I think your looks a lot more impressive! :)

B

[Voxel57]

Wow thanks!

I didnt see it. Looks like I might have some editing to do!

[BeeVee]

I figured yours wasn't an update to this one, after all, your English is very good, and a lot easier to understand (for me!) than Japanese... :)

B

[Voxel57]

Thanks for the info BeeVee!
I just went and checked it out. Its a modeler plug ours runs in Layout. Ill have to see what we will do.
Confusion would not be good.

[Voxel57]

Oh well the name Calcium has to go, there is a Japenese company that has a modeler plug buy the name (Thanks BeeVee).
They are releasing a new version for LW 7.5. Not the same as ours by a longshot. But they had it first.
I think I'll put up a new web page and start a thread here for a naming contest (Is that against the rules?). A free copy on release for the winner!
I'll change the page this afternoon and see if I can get anyone interested.

[BeeVee]

Sorry. :( I feel really bad now... Perhaps just calling it Insta-Skeleton-o-matic! (don't forget the exclam) might be nice in a retro-fifties kind of way... :)

B

[Voxel57]

"Perhaps just calling it Insta-Skeleton-o-matic!":applause:

Unfortunately someone is already using that!
Just kidding.
Your right it is very 50s!
Don't feel bad, I appreciate you telling me. I can't believe I missed it!

[BeeVee]

Gah! I should have known that you wouldn't want to use it, you being from New Hampshire and all. It takes a trashy Californian to truly appreciate a name like that, just rolling it around the mouth is an exercise in bad taste! :)

Apologies to anyone else on the list from New Hampshire and all Californians, everywhere... :)

B

[Voxel57]

Actually BeeVee there are some very 50s dinners right around here. Original stuff.
Oh yea I'm not originally from NH........Mass! Oh no!!!!
Almost all of us in southern NH are from Mass we keep pushing the old timers further north. As we inflict our liberal politics on them!;)

[zaam]

Whatever you do . . .


. .. don't call it "Boner"

[policarpo]

hey Voxel...your plugin seems pretty cool.

i just wonder though how much time it will save a person who is use to rigging things in Modeler via Skelegons and doing the conversions in Layout. The very fact that Splines can be the origin of a Skelegon allows for very quick placement and adjustment.

I'm not an expert by any means...but i find the process of boning and setting up a rig to be pretty quick and painless in modeler...the hard part (for me at least) comes in setting up contstraints and making sure the mesh deforms in a proper fashion when i start moving limbs around.

Also...in a lot of cases Endomorphs will work great in areas where you need subtle and extreme motion to occur (as in the cylinder object with flairs you showed on the last page of your presentation).

I'm just wondering what the overall philosophy of the plug-in is. You mention taking 1.5 hours to name parts in order to run "Insert New name PLug-In Here" and have it create the bone system. I would imagine that in that 1.5 hours I could have a character/object fully boned and rigged with all constraints set.

I'm not trying to take out any steam from what you are doing...because I think the LightWave developers are some of the best cats around...I guess I'm just trying to find out the reason as to why I'd need something like this. How will this improve my workflow?

Anyway...good luck on the naming of the plug-in and I look forward to being illuminated on the need for "Insert New name PLug-In Here".

rock on!!
:thumbsup:

[Voxel57]

That was actually my wife' favorite.

[Voxel57]

Hi policarpo!

Yup as I've stated in an earlier post, it has its place.
It would not be the ideal solution for something that could be setup fast with skelegons or using canned rigs like ACS (very cool by the way). There is a version that we are developing that takes the mesh and places bones without any setup at all. We are working on exactly how to impliment it.
It's a version 2 feature. We can make it fill the mesh in the correct shape it's just naming, adding attributes and keeping the amount of bones down.

You're right you can use endomorphs (I do). But applying expressions or having them react to a controll object is one of the things that you can do with this.
Ther are a lot of ways to use it. It's another tool in the box.


You're not taking any steam out at all.
The point of this thread was to get feedback like this so it's priced as a very affordable tool. So people can use when it applies. Instead of forking large $ for something you use twice a year.
If you go and look at the flea model I have a screen shot of that is perfect example. I don't know about you but put skelegons in the with or with splines would take me alot longer 1.5 hours.

I hope that answers some of your questins . If it does'nt let me know.

I'm in the process of setting up another page, it will have links to AVIs and MPEGS. those may give you a beter idea.

Thanks for the input!

[policarpo]

very cool voxel!

what if you were to automate the creation of bones (how about the name "BoneGEN" for the new plug-in?) via the placement of null objects with similar naming conventions so it knows when to create connections/links with the BoneGEN plug-in?

an example would be something like this...for the hand area...you would create a set of null objects appropriately placed based on the unique setting of your hand area entitled Finger_01, Finger_02, Finger_03...and when you ran BoneGEN, it would create the appropriately linked system of bones and either hide or eliminate the null objects it used for placement.

does this make sense?

rock on!:D

[policarpo]

i suggest this...because as of late what I've been doing is selecting "flow" vertices in my meshes and copying and pasting them to a new layer so i only have the points.

I then select the points in the order i want the skelegon system to flow and create a spline path from these vertices. i then run the "Make Skelegon" function on this spline and adjust my newly created system of Skelegons so they fit in nicely into my mesh. You may need to Merge some Points if anyone tries this.

i then send them over to Layout and begin animating.

i don't see why the same logic wouldn't work in Layout by using specifically placed NULL objects and "BoneGEN".

[Voxel57]

BoneGEN! I like that!
I'll add that one to the list.

Your idea to use nulls to set naming is a good one.
But what we are going for in Version 2 (Version 1 comes out in a little over a week) is extreme ease of use. I think the solution that we end up with will have to leave out placing anything.
I'm lazy!!!!

I'm going to try to get a naming contest going and I'll consider this the first entry.

The winner will get a free copy of [Plugin to be named] Bone Breaker and Bone Fuser.

I don't know if they will let me do it here.

[Novadesigns]

How about "Skele-Gro" after the bone-growing potion from Harry Potter? ;):p

And you should drop by LWG (http://www.lwg3d.org) Maybe we can help you with your contest and maybe even a venue to seel it from. :)

[Voxel57]

Thanks Nova I'll drop by and do that!
Skele-gro, great! Then I'll have JK Rowling suing me!
Hell, maybe I'll just sue myself and get it over with!;)

[toast3d]

Hi Voxel57,
Nifty looking plug! I''ve been jotting a few silly names down for the last hour or so while working........

BoneFitter
Anatomy, or the hipper Newtekesque- Anatomizer :)
BoneWorks
BoneFoundry
BoneBuilder

Good luck with your development. :)

regards,
Larry W

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by Voxel57
Hey Cman.

Yeah setting up the groups in modeler (groups are usually associated with OBJ files) you might know them as "Parts".
Originally we tried letting it place bone on its own but it puts them everywhere.

So the work flow is this.

1. make model.

2. select polys and use the "Change part name" function
in Modeler (7.5 only, you have to use surface names in 6.5).

3. Send to layout.

4. Run Calcium.

5. Bone are placed.

From the info we gather about the polys inthe groups you will also be able to auto assign weight maps.
Hi Voxel,
I think its great that youre working on LW plugins.
I do have some comments. Ive been using LW for quite awhile and have used bones in particular for most of that time.
I hope you dont mind me pointing out what I think are issues.
1. I think using partnames may pose some problems. There are other plugins like Motion Designer that use partnames too. There is a potential there for problems since polys can only belong to one part group at a time. Since polys (points) can belong to different weight maps groups at the same time you might use those as a way to do it. It might look for weight maps that have a specific prefix in the name.
2. I think having to create polygon groups vs drawing skelegons is going to be much slower. I can draw bones in layout or modeler faster then doing it that way. There would have to be an overwhelming advantage in some way for me to select polys and mark them that way.
3. How would you control the pitch plane using your method? Skelegons have the bank handles to allow this to be done easily.

The biggest issues about bones is editing them once theyre created. Sometimes you have to move the pivot point of a bone to get it to deform properly. So far I use Lernies stickybone plugin to do this. I dont have to go back to modeler to tweak a pivot point. Stickybone lets me tweak pivot points of bones even when motion has been applied or IK. I also try and avoid weight maps when possible because of the added work. I try and make the bones work as is and only shift to weight maps if I have to.

Looking at your website, I believe that it is still easier and quicker to setup those examples you have using the standard skelegon creation methods. Since skelegons are polys I can still use the same tools/methods for example, to create the skelegons that were also used to create the vanes of the turbines. Skelegons can also be mirrored which cuts down the time even further in other instances.

Im not trying to knock what youre doing but bringing up issues that I would think of before making a purchase.

I have a few ideas about bone plugins that Id like to see. If youre interested in discussing it please drop me an email. :)

[Voxel57]

Hi SplineGod!

Thanks for the input!
I dont mind at all. We want this to be a package that's usable and ANYONE with ideas, expert (like yourself) or not is welcome to comment.

As far as your comments go.

1. You can actually use any thing you want. Let me explain.
When we started we used surface names and replaced the model after with the original. Seeing the draw backs we decided to allow the plug (for dev puposes) to use Surfaces, Point sets or groups. We have been using groups as an example but in the release we will probably use Point Sets as a default.Having the choice may sound strange but we have been trying to keep this as "creative" as poosible and open. This allows us to play with it many ways without a re-write and compile. Because of the way we read the model we have access to every aspect and feature in the geometry and can do anything LW will allow (and some it wont). I'm sure you can see all the possibilites.

2. If you can draw the 199 bones in the flea I did with the same accuracy and faster well...you are a god! :>) If you want I'll send you the boned flea. I would love to get more input from you. Again this plug in Version 1 is not an answer to every problem. It's meant to be a constantly evolving tool. The first release will be some time in the 2nd week of Feb. That incarnation will fit some situations and not others, as it grows it will apply to more situations for more people.

3.I'm not sure what you mean about controling the pitch plane.
This plug parses the geometry and aligns the bone to it. there is no need to move the bones rotate the bone or anything. They are placed in Layout ready to go.

I hope that clears up some things. I know (and hope) it will lead to more questions.

Peter

[kretin]

Hey Voxel,

I can definitely see that this plug would have its uses, especially if it uses point maps, or weight maps. The selling factor to me is that it aligns the pitch of the bones to the geometry automatically.

Another selling factor would be boning sections of geometry, so with your alien example, I could use it to bone the tentacles on the head, preferably after I had boned the rest of the character.

And finally, I think it would be even more useful if it created skelegons, because then it would be easier to cut and paste into existing skelegon setups... Although could always use the loadbone plug to convert your output to skelegons...

To me this plug has limited use though, on complicated geometry, lots tentacles kinda thing. I agree with Politcarpo and SplineGod that setting skelegons or bones manually is pretty fast in general, so it would have to be quite complicated geometry for the plug to be worth paying for.

My philosophy on plugs is, I calculate the amount of time the plug will save me, then I multiply that by my hourly rate. If that amount is more than the plug costs, then I buy it.

For me, since this would have limited use, I would a) wait until I had a project that needed it, and b) prolly not want to pay a huge amount for it. I certainly think the under $100 mark is good for a plug like this because it makes it an easier decision. For me the no brainer limit is $50, anything above that involves a bit more thought...

Can't wait to see more...

[eRP]

Voxel 57

what about " Osso" for the name.
It just means Bone in Portuguese and it sounds nice, don't you think ?

[Voxel57]

Hey Kretin!

Thanks for the post.
Your right, and again I've said this. It has it's place.
I still use it on simpler meshes. Then I use the other tools to edit in layout. We will have a demo version for people to play with which will give people a better idea of how it works and if it is usefull for them. The price will be well under $100.00 for the plug and still under $100.00 for the whole tool bundle.

[Voxel57]

Hi eRP!

I like that! "Osso"
I will add that to the list of possibilities.
Are you Portuguese?
Great country!

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