PDA

View Full Version : Topology research


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

Lunatique
01-20-2003, 03:07 PM
I spent the whole day trying to come up with a prototype topology that will meet just about all of my facial modelling needs. I made my wife make all kinds fo faces and took photographs. I studies those, alongside photographs of men, women, old people..etc, with different types of expressions. I also used a bunch of pictures of wire meshs that I thought had pretty good topology for reference too.

In the end, I think I got a topology that is the most versatile for different expressions, age groups, and makes the most sense.

The black is the simple base topology. The green is the more detailed splits.
http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/topology_study.jpg

If anyone's got suggestions, I'd love to hear it before I start modelling it.

polymath
01-20-2003, 03:20 PM
if you are working from just the pictures, be sure to have as many views as you can get your hands on - ie. front, side, and top which should help quite a bit, and a perspective kinda view is also good to have.

just don't use a single view as reference and you'll get the surface right ;)

Lunatique
01-20-2003, 04:01 PM
Yep, I put my wife through hell for my 3D. I took pics from all different angles.

Here's another attempt to see if I could do a better one. I like the first one more.
http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/topology_study-2.jpg

Laa-Yosh
01-20-2003, 07:43 PM
I don't believe that there is one generic topology to rule them all... or at least that there should be one.

Differences in the proportions of facial features and the forms of them will break such generic loops from time to time and will cause problems; you either have to throw out the generic approach that you've spent so much time on, or you'll try to force shapes and forms on a topology that cannot really support them.

There are some tendencies and the facial musculature and underlying bone structure is anatomically very similar for every human; but it's not close enough IMHO. Loops will start to drift away on the surface and loose their perpendicularity/paralelity with the slopes and tension lines of the surface quickly.

I agree however that one might be able to spare some modeling time by building a lowres generic head to start from, instead of going back to a box from time to time. But, this way you'll start to forget things and will have to re-learn many things when you are inevitably forced to start from skratch - like, for instance, when you want to model a dragon or a lion, and you've got used to have a base mesh to build upon.

These are just a few thoughts though, and I might as well be wrong ;)

polymath
01-20-2003, 10:00 PM
I see some problem areas - just I perceive them as problems, it may not be that at all. :) such as the tri in between eyebrows and the extra grey line above the spherical shape of the nose.
IMSeriouslyHO, I think the quad patch under the eye can be a problem - in whatever scrap of experience I have, I find that pattern doesn't work well

- In fact! I could be wrong, but if you have a face on a model with for example 15 vertices, it after subdivision it looks like that. So in my mind you are working with non quads.

- also under the ear, I think that is an area not accounted for? :P


I agree with Mr. Vargas that the loop distance and shape definitely - without a doubt - differs with each person. However, even if you start from scratch, having a "game plan" will eliminate a lot of guesswork and stress later on.

Did you draw those lines on a different layer, Luna? I think it would help to see those lines separately and try to visualize it in your mind. This way you can see if that structure actually looks like your wife - you'd have to do that with each expression :P But if you have to take more pictures, I think she'll keep to one expression - the I'm gonna Kill you!!!! face.

Stahlberg
01-21-2003, 06:15 AM
IMO it's bad to reinvent the wheel every time you need a new face, good point about needing to keep practising but there are other ways to do that.
Humans are genetically similar to 99.97 percent or something like that. Yes the lines in the face look different, but we all have the same underlying topology, the potential for those lines. It's like lines in the hands of our palms, all slightly different but basically very similar - for instance you'll never see someone with the lines going in the opposite direction, from the thumb to the pinkie.

This is my fourth generation topology. I've spent a lot of research time on it, it's a big improvement on the last version; it seems to work very well so far.
http://www.androidblues.com/topology.jpg
Here's the male version:
http://www.androidblues.com/topology2.jpg
(And yes, for an extremely fat person I would have to go back to the drawing board.)

I've marked in red some important areas - the wrinkles at the corner of the eyes are very hard to get right if the topology is wrong. The big nasolabial fold is tricky because on some people it connects a little higher on the chin in the smile, but I think I got a good average placement here, I think you got that pretty close too Luny. The little wrinkle at the corner of the mouth is sometimes overlooked. In many old people it does seem to cross the nasolabial fold like that.
The bridge of the nose actually displays this surface shape in some people, and I believe we all have the same structure there, just many of us (like most asians, and me) don't show it.
(The top of the nostril is one of those areas I might decide to change later, most people have a line there, and modeling it diagonally across a quad is a big pain.)

About triangles and 5-sided polys - in Maya what you see here works very well, never tried it in any other app.

Lunatique
01-21-2003, 08:42 AM
Steven- It's always a good day when Stahlberg posts his wires. :D

Thanks for the input man. Very much appreciated

BTW, are those your level zero meshes for hierarchal sub'd?

polymath- I see what you're saying. I think in Maya's sub'd, things kind of smooth themselves out when you get into finer smooths. But I'll have to model this topology to see for sure.

BTW, here are her "I'm going to kill you" face.

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/photography/elena/tina_scary/tina_scary_10.jpg

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/photography/elena/tina_scary/tina_scary_07.jpg

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/photography/elena/tina_killing_of_thy_beloved/tina_assassin_5.jpg

Iain McFadzen
01-21-2003, 09:06 AM
I start all my heads from the same, generic, mid-stage control mesh, and apart from having less detail around the eyes (which are always extremely mesh-specific), and pr'aps slightly fewer loops overall (which makes it easier to achieve the proper volume by having fewer points to move initially) my generic model looks very similar to your image.

Lunatique
01-21-2003, 09:48 AM
Here's a picture of the base head mesh that comes with XSI. It's a pretty efficient base mesh.

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/temp/xsi_female_head.jpg

Stahlberg
01-21-2003, 10:24 AM
Yes, that's right, those are the zero-level meshes meant to be turned into Subd's.

polymath
01-21-2003, 11:42 AM
I think, Mr. Stahlberg, that you tweak your models after subdiv right? In that case, I guess nonquads don't make much of a difference, since you can work with the quadified (?) smooth version.

I don't have a clue as to how to work like that in max.

I know that smoothing any poly evens them out, but when the edgeloops are connected in the "star" pattern its like starting from a non-quad, like I said. If you can't tweak in the end, then you have to create the end product directly. I guess with the patterns I get atleast, it always ends up looking flat in those areas. Perhaps you've guessed, it messed up a lot of my models - so I started over quite a bit :surprised:

I guess it is of course preference for quads.

Keep on going!

Laa-Yosh
01-21-2003, 11:49 AM
I think we basically agree here then, Steve... You usually create quite idealized (beauty-type) faces, which conform a lot more to a general topology; and you also say that more characteristic features could require different loops. So those of us who have to build such models usually can't benefit from generalized meshes that much.

Regarding 3 and 5-sided polys, they will be converted to 3 and 5 quad faces at the first level of subdivision where you can easily smooth them out with hierarchical editing. But with straight polysmooth / nonhierarchical subdiv conversion we have to make sure that these faces will stay smooth, even during animation.

RichSuchy
01-21-2003, 12:13 PM
Here's my latest topology for a face. I tend to reinvent the wheel with every face because I always want to explore new aproaches to getting the geometry down... It has tended to speed up my modeling (good practice) and taught me a few things.

I try to avoid triangles except where thier shading wierdness actually helps. My experience tells me that they are a pain to deal with if used in a morphable area. i try to "push" them to areas where mirroring will double them or flat areas where they blend in well.

Smooth open GL

http://www.cgsculpt.com/images/facetopology1.jpg

Low Rez Cage

http://www.cgsculpt.com/images/facetopology2.jpg

Cage Subdivided

http://www.cgsculpt.com/images/facetopology3.jpg

Rich

ThirdEye
01-21-2003, 01:50 PM
Here's the level 0 mesh of my 2nd head, it comes out directly from phreaknasty's base mesh of this thread http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26813&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
it worked quite good for me, not a single tri so far.

Lunatique
01-21-2003, 04:58 PM
I love where this thread is going. It's turning out to be the "gathering of good topology" thread. :D

9rin
01-21-2003, 07:06 PM
hello guys.... i am scared to post in a thread with so many nice things. but i wanted to show my topology.
this girl http://www.cybercom.net/~erin/wings/chani/chani2.jpg
i made from scratch... but i have also played with using a generic layout and i got some really great results.. i made this gargoyle
http://www.cybercom.net/~erin/wings/troll2.jpg
and this child
http://www.cybercom.net/~erin/wings/child/child2.jpg
both from the same head.
http://www.cybercom.net/~erin/wings/crapgeneric/crapmesh.jpg
there is very little difference between the 2 aside from the start of the childs hair, and the ears on the gargoyle.
the mesh that i used to start them from isn't all that good and i want to make a new one. i really feel it's a great way to go.

bunk
01-21-2003, 10:18 PM
I love where this thread is going. It's turning out to be the "gathering of good topology" thread.

Yep, "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" ;)

I've nothing basically to add since all meshes that will do the job are fine as far as I'm concerned. And of course I also tend to believe I'm using THE basic mesh. About which I do have a question. I'm using a loop (the extra one in the second picture) that starts on the nose bridge, circles the eye, passes the nose wing and ends up under the mouth. Here is a picture showing the UVW poly mesh left out the subs for eyes and mouth.

http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/mesh.gif

I don't think it's a loop no one ever thought of before. So my question is how comes it's hardly used, if at all? Just curious.

...and two pictures done with it.

http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/minimum_1.jpg
http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/otto.jpg

Cheers,

bunk

Iain McFadzen
01-21-2003, 11:06 PM
Here's mine. It's light enough to be easily tweekable (and making it even lighter still, if need be, is as simple as selecting an edgerow and collapsing etc), but it's complete enough that I don't have to do the monkey work it takes to get to this point.

[edit] Damn I am tired, should've cropped that [edit]

Per-Anders
01-22-2003, 01:43 AM
hey guys thanks for posting the wires, this is really helpful, i'm learning loads, keep posting!

RichSuchy
01-22-2003, 05:09 AM
The only reasson I can see why not to do that loop is that it might be hard to control the shape of the hollow at the base of the nostril when posing it for blend shapes... BUT I do like how it organizes the geometry of the cheek.

Rich

Stahlberg
01-22-2003, 06:38 AM
Yes I turn it into a SubD, and tweak the higher levels, and keep them separate (no collapsing). I've gone back and forth many many times to ensure I get the 0-level configuration that will look best as a SubD. For instance, the 4 triangles meeting in each nostril must look strange but trust me it works excellently. :)

I'm a bit leery of loops, the real face has no such large looping structures so it can be a bit misleading to try too hard to find edge-loops in it... ok there are some circular or semi-circular muscle groups but I'm also not too fond of letting the muscles decide topology.
IMO only 2 things should guide topology:
1. real surface topology (shape), both neutral and grimacing
2. major wrinkles, both neutral and grimacing

Here's a couple portraits I've marked to clarify what I meant about that nose-ridge, and the corners of the mouth and eye.
http://www.androidblues.com/example1.jpg
Also note, on the guy, the typical doubled-semi-colon shape that's created by the nasolabial folds as they run into the chin, together with the next wrinkle parallell to it. Almost every single person on the planet shows something quite similar. (Although a few have the nasolabial fold hooking up a bit lower on the chin.)

Lunatique
01-22-2003, 07:40 AM
I totally agree with Steven that only the actual wrinkles you see should be considered.

Time and time again, people model very detailed faces, but with the wrong topology. I wonder how those faces animate?

Here are some of the most obvious wrinkles we see on humans, yet, most face models out there don't follow these wrinkles. I wonder why?

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/topology-olddude.jpg

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/elena_topology-1.jpg

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/elena_topology-2.jpg


http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/elena_topology-3.jpg


http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/elena_topology-4.jpg

RichSuchy
01-22-2003, 04:22 PM
An aside.

Have you all noticed how music videos and commercials blur out those wrinkles weve been talking about on the female actor/model/ singers?

Now that I'm aware of it it looks pretty obvious.

------------

Thanks Steven Looks like I can still learn a few things!



Rich

AdamT
01-22-2003, 07:56 PM
Thanks everyone for all the great pics and discussion. I wish I had something to add, but I'm just posting so I can be notified if there are additional tips! :)

bjarneheden
01-23-2003, 11:58 AM
Great post!
This is exactly what I have been looking for. I find it a bit difficult to decide where I should place my edgeloops, but now I have several good references to get me started.

Thanks guys :applause:


/Bjarne

HippyDrome
01-23-2003, 04:35 PM
Hi,

This is a subject that I am working on a web page for. I am an articulator and this is the kind of dense mesh we use for film at out studio. I have been refining this one for the last few months. It is designed based on the type of deformation that I use in combo with each other. Some of the main points I use when modeling our vertical spans through the mouth. This helps stop shearing when the LCorner of the mouth is pull out to the side and up towards the eye. I also like to use this through the eye but with a bit of radial formation. The brow I try to keep the spans running horizontal to the eyes and loop down around the corner. All spans are keped as close to a neutral pose.

Here is a link to some of my examples.

http://www.hippydrome.com/
http://www.hippydrome.com/ArticulationHead.htm
http://www.hippydrome.com/ArticulationTheory.htm

Cheers,

Hippydrome

gnarlycranium
01-24-2003, 11:06 PM
HippyDrome : That site is absolutely nifty. I'm not advanced enough to get half of it, but you can be sure I'll study it till I do! Making a skeleton to use as a guide in joint deformations is a lovely idea. Looking forward to seeing the site finished! :D


Do you people realize that I could've saved almost a year of screwing around with mindlessly confusing wrecks that were supposed to be heads, if I could have taken just ONE look at this thread back when I started modeling? This is awesome! I could scream!! :scream:

Seriously, this information needs to be compiled someplace. Maybe a sticky thread, or even a CG Festival feature, or something, you think? A list of the best sites-- like the hobbitguy's site, and The Human Head site, if that ever gets back up... and we could see if Syomka would add in a couple wires too, so we'd have his and Stahlberg's unique approaches-- heck, we could ask lots of people to show their head meshes, and the good ones could be put in a nifty little 'CGtalk Head Topology' gallery... whaddaya think? :cool:

HippyDrome
01-24-2003, 11:21 PM
Hey,

Thanks for your coments.

I have a whole section on the body coming on line this weekend. This will deal more with the spans in the body.

Cheers,

HippyDrome

tonygib
01-25-2003, 07:32 AM
Hay Lunatique,

Nice thread you started here, when starting out it always helps to see how the "pro's" put things together.

One thing, not sure if its just me, but on the first page, your first two links and the links on this page pop-up with protected and ask me to log-in to get to the images. The other image links work, fine just not those.

PS. nice looking wife, and supportive, both of which really helps with this stuff :)

Lunatique
01-25-2003, 08:01 AM
Oops, sorry about that. I had put a password on it to secure the directory to my short film, but I had put those images in that folder... I'll fix it.

tonygib
01-25-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Lunatique
Oops, sorry about that. I had put a password on it to secure the directory to my short film, but I had put those images in that folder... I'll fix it.

hehe, cool, thanks man, I wonder why no one else said anything, hmmmmm

Lunatique
01-25-2003, 09:49 AM
That's because I just put the password on yesterday. :D It's fixed now.

tonygib
01-25-2003, 01:03 PM
ummm, you sure its fixed, as I just tried: http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/promise/topology-olddude.jpg

on two different comps and got the login box both times. It seams anything under /3d/promise/ just doesn't want to come out and play :)

Lunatique
01-25-2003, 02:37 PM
Doh!! Ok, it's definitely fixed now. I checked it. Sorry about that!!

Laa-Yosh
01-25-2003, 03:49 PM
Well, for blendshape-based facial animation, all my experiences in the past year have proven to me that John Feather's and Bay Raitt's topologies below are approaches that work pretty well.

http://www.serpentsheart.com/Images/bonobo_sneer.jpg

http://www.serpentsheart.com/Images/vig_control_cage.jpg

http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/bay_free_wire.jpg

I can only suggest anyone who's trying to get a good layout to study these images, go and try to build a head and a few facial shapes to test them. Then, after you've reached a few problematic areas while modeling the shapes, take another look at these wires and start again :)

Also, here's my current head, altogether the third project where I had to do faces and shapes. Schedules did not allow me to model in more wrinkles, so that's the explanation for the lack of them...

Laa-Yosh
01-25-2003, 04:12 PM
Oops, forgot the wireframe... :)

tonygib
01-26-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Lunatique
Doh!! Ok, it's definitely fixed now. I checked it. Sorry about that!!

woohoo, yup that now works :)

O' and for what it's worth, not that I am in the same ballpark as Steven, hell don't even have a 3D job. But anyway here is my current WIP topology and a rendered output with temp textures, etc.

Lunatique
01-26-2003, 04:58 AM
tonygib-- Hehehehe. You modelled her dimples? :D

gnarlycranium
01-26-2003, 05:46 AM
Now all this handy info can't get lost! Let's pile some more in!

How about a few nifty links? Yeah, why not... my own head meshes aren't good enough yet to put up here, and if they were, it'd pretty much look like what other people have posted already, so here's some links.

Syomka's website (http://www.primitivex.com/)
look in the WIP section for Anna and The Eye

The Human Head (http://www.thehumanhead.com/)
That's really a very good one, discussing matters of modeling theory and how they relate to different methods of modeling... but it seems to be down now. Don't want to forget about it though, in case it comes back later!

Dave Komorowski, The Hobbit Guy (http://www.thehobbitguy.com/)
Great techniques in the head tutorial-- it's not a human head exactly, but the methods are darn useful. This is where I learned to make creases, yay!

In this forum, too, there is a thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35527) that sounds like it might have some potential later, if Fallenswordsman ever finishes the eye-area tutorial he promised.

ThirdEye --help us out with some more good links, we know you've got em!!

And somebody convince phreaknasty to post his Cranium over here!

tonygib
01-26-2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Lunatique
tonygib-- Hehehehe. You modelled her dimples? :D

By dimples I assume you are talking about the indent on the side, bak a bit from the mouth. In which case yeah, I noticed that on some people you can get a bit of movement when they speak and with expressions, just look at Katie Holmes.

ThirdEye
01-26-2003, 02:58 PM
ok ok i post some more links, you know i had them :D


http://news.cgland.com/index.html?code=view&no=1551&category_1st=3&category_2nd=700000&start=0

Mirai videos by Martin Krol



http://www.secondreality.ch/

wiro's website, some good modeling tuts



http://www.cg-art.i12.com/pictures.html

Julian_J website, some inspiring works and wireframes

Lunatique
01-29-2003, 09:53 AM
Here are some new researches:

Here's a research on top of Phreaknasty's excellent topology:
http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/phreaknasty-tweaked.jpg

Here's one on top of Steven's excellent topology:
http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/stahlberg-tweaked.jpg

And here's my latest base mesh, result from studying faces, and other people's mesh:
http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/lunatique-base.jpg
This one is just the base, but it'll should be a good road map for more detailed splits.

gnarlycranium
01-29-2003, 01:12 PM
Cool! Great links guys, keep em coming!

I have a question now-- what about spirals?

I have noticed that many models end up with edges that run in a spiral shape up around the eye. I have several in my own head models right now, and I noticed Lunatique is doing something similar with his.

Is this okay, or should we try to make closed loops?

Lunatique
01-29-2003, 01:27 PM
The spiral in mine just came naturally when I start to trace the contour of the eye-socket and nose bridge. I think it's pretty natural. I don't see any practical reason to close the loops unless you have plans to break off certain parts of your face model and transfer it around a lot?

Laa-Yosh
01-29-2003, 01:30 PM
Spirals versus edge loops, IMHO: you can easily add more detail to edge loops by beveling one of them, or by connecting a set of edge rings.
But if your edges are spiraling, it's quite hard to add more geometry. I've just had such a situation with the leg of a model here and it required many extra steps...

Iain McFadzen
01-29-2003, 02:49 PM
Yup, spirals are a huge pain. They don't hurt your model at all, they just make it slightly more cumbersome to work with (having to select edges one at a time rather than with a single key-stroke). I don't know at what point the mesh itself becomes more important than my patience, my milage varies depending on my mood :)

jenga
01-29-2003, 03:47 PM
:bounce: can you guys do a screen capture tutorial, modeling a head for ppl like me who want to learn???? pleasseeeee!!!!:D

ThirdEye
01-29-2003, 03:49 PM
Spirals? You obbiously end with some ngons. Edgeloops all the way! :thumbsup:

Lunatique
01-29-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Laa-Yosh
Spirals versus edge loops, IMHO: you can easily add more detail to edge loops by beveling one of them, or by connecting a set of edge rings.
But if your edges are spiraling, it's quite hard to add more geometry. I've just had such a situation with the leg of a model here and it required many extra steps...

That's a good point. Maybe I ought to make some changes to mine. :(

HippyDrome
01-29-2003, 04:34 PM
Hi,

I just put up a few pages on Modeling for Articulation. I hope to get more done this week.

http://www.hippydrome.com/ModelArt.htm

On the eye spirl thingie, I try to have my directional change (a point that is shared by five polys) happen in the same plane (front view). Example on this page below. Look at the corner on the inner part of the eye. You can see the direction change happen on the lower part of the brow and directly below that by the bottom eye lid

http://www.hippydrome.com/EyeLidsUD.htm

Crazy....


Have a nice day.

HippyDrome

AdamT
01-29-2003, 06:58 PM
That's a great resource, Hippydrome. Thanks for making it available. One thing, though--I'm a little confused about your definition of "span".

HippyDrome
01-29-2003, 07:03 PM
Hi,

I use "span" as the line that connects a row of ponts (CV's).

Hope that helps.

Thanks,

HippyDrome

Laa-Yosh
01-29-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by jenga
can you guys do a screen capture tutorial, modeling a head for ppl like me who want to learn????

The problem with that - in my case - is that my work style isn't totally clean. I tend to rework parts of the model, jump between different areas without any logical reason, and so on. I don't think you could learn much from that, other than how to model that exact kind of object.

The more important things to learn are guidelines and rules; why you should or should not do something; or how you should do it. I belive that the easiest way is to learn by trial and error, by doing this stuff again and again. You model a head, texture and animate it, then compare it with the work of others to find differences. You try to explore new approaches, you re-read lots of stuff again, after you've gained new perspective through experience, and so on.

Oh, and a good eye is also important; you must be able to really measure up your work and detect problems and glitches. You have to train your sight for this, which once again requires a lot of practice ;)

Laa-Yosh
01-29-2003, 08:09 PM
HippyDrome, your site is very interesting...

The topology of your control mesh is pretty clean and ordered - it's actually very similar looking to a bunch of NURBS surfaces patched together. So it seems that you only make use of one advantage of subdivs; that it is one single surface without heavy mathematics to keep it in one piece. But you give up the other very important advantage and that is to localize detail (however you can do it with hierarchical editing). This implies that when you want to add more detail into an area, you'll end up adding vertices to other areas as well. For example the elbow and knee areas of your mesh are very dense; and you still don't have too much definition there. I can see your reasoning behind this, that you most likely want to have a very smooth derived surface; I sometimes end up reworking my meshes for the same reasons. But I wouldn't give up on localized detail for many reasons; like, my machine is quite slow :)

A few areas on your model that could use more localized detail are for example the eyebrow (it has detail, but it's continued in the skull area too) and the corners of the eyes on the face; and the nee/elbow areas lack definition as I've mentioned above. All IMHO of course.

Also, the size of your datasets can become pretty important as well, more vertices mean larger scene files and longer render times. I've just seen a character yesterday that had a 200 MB RIB file (no mistake, 200 megs for one character!) - had it been built with such a 'clean' mesh, it would've taken at least two times as much space. And all this data has to bee sent to the renderfarm machines on a network, many many times... :)

By the way your skinning looks pretty nice and clean. Can we please get some insight to your methods? I'm about to skin 5 human characters in Maya and we can say that I'm really scared about it... ;)

bunk
01-30-2003, 12:00 AM
I want to thank Lunatique for starting this thread and ThirdEye_01 for dragging me in. Without it I would never have forced myself to come up with a - for me - new mesh. It was quite a tour the force to keep all those trķes under the carpet manipulating an old mesh. Looking back it had probably been faster if I had started all over.
Although it's now more or less similar to what everbody else uses, I'm pretty content with it.

http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/mesh_development.jpg

Cheers,

bunk

HippyDrome
01-30-2003, 12:10 AM
Hi,

If you use localize controls how do you assign the cluster wt groups to them in the low cage version?

Thanks for your coments Laa-Yosh.

I use hand wted clusters to drive the points into postion. The skinning is just using translation before rotations of the bone. I set up indvidual translation cluster sets for the x,y,z(alot of time they might not be exact) and hook to the bone rotation.

Cheers

Laa-Yosh
01-30-2003, 12:49 AM
HippyDrome:
Jeez, setting up clusters for facial animation would be too much for me ;)
I use blend shapes, for individual areas of the face like yo do, so for eyebrow, eye, mouth, cheeck and so on. you can then combine them to create various expressions, and can have almost full control over each vertex. I'm quite sure that this method could be taken a bit further by creating transitional shapes (especially for mouth movement) that are activated automatically.
Also, localized detail can be put to good use with this method as I can model relaxed and activated poses for each wrinkle area on the face, and can precisely define how each vertex is moving to create the effect of skin sliding over muscles and bone.

Here's a shot from some initial shapes. Eyebrow targets will be taken apart for left and right side; same could go with blink and mouth shapes if needed.

ThirdEye
01-30-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by bunk
I want to thank Lunatique for starting this thread and ThirdEye_01 for dragging me in. Without it I would never have forced myself to come up with a - for me - new mesh. It was quite a tour the force to keep all those trķes under the carpet manipulating an old mesh. Looking back it had probably been faster if I had started all over.
Although it's now more or less similar to what everbody else uses, I'm pretty content with it.

http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/mesh_development.jpg

Cheers,

bunk


Nice new mesh Bunk, your work's always amazed me, I'm happy you came in this thread :thumbsup:

HippyDrome
01-30-2003, 04:24 PM
Hi Laa-Yosh,

That is a neet idea with your blend shapes but I articulate using clusters to move around points and do not use blend shapes. Just a different approach to the problem. :o)

Cheers,

HippyDrome

chudofsinister
01-30-2003, 08:22 PM
when you use clusters are you using them in Maya or Soft. I use Max and blend shape seems to be the only real option for facial animation.

HippyDrome
01-30-2003, 08:36 PM
Hi chudofsinister

I use Maya clusters.

That is too bad that Max will not allow you to control individual points. There is not a work around for this?

HippyDrome

chudofsinister
01-30-2003, 08:53 PM
yeah there is a work around or other method, but its not called control clusters. Do you use control clusters to define morph targets or do you actually animate the clusters.

HippyDrome
01-30-2003, 09:01 PM
Hi,


I am pushing around the wt'ed individual points in the cluster.

It's allot of work but I like the results.

HippyDrome

chudofsinister
01-31-2003, 11:25 PM
Hey lunatique,
I just found out you are Lunachild on Rustboys forum. I have seen some of your posts over there. cool.

Lunatique
02-01-2003, 03:05 AM
:D

Boone
02-01-2003, 04:17 PM
Sorry to bother everyone with such trival questions...

I'm not sure how this "Topology" technique is performed, but its mighty interesting!:cool:

Being new to this topic, I was wondering if someone could explain it to me. :love:

fango
02-01-2003, 05:01 PM
boone, you might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of subd modeling and edge loops, it will make way more sense then.


i think the quintessential papers :applause: are Tamas Vargas' subdivision modeling tips (http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/subdivmodeling.htm)

and Bay Raitt's digital sculpting techniques (http://www.izware.com/news/pdf/derived-surfaces.pdf) (pdf file) from the izware website. you can also read it in html here (http://www.izware.com/news/indexa446.html).

Boone
02-01-2003, 06:52 PM
Re : Fango.

Ahh...I see. Thank you for your assistance.:thumbsup:

MukMan
02-03-2003, 11:20 PM
In Bay's PDF previously posted here about his sculpting methods. There were a few things written in ther I wanted to ask about,

1. It says "Mirai lets you reduce the polygons on the derived surface without disrupting the relationship between the control object and the derived surface."

Can you do that with Maya? Maya has the smoothproxy tool and the Subd modelling set that lets you use a low poly object to define a smoother version. My question is, can you reduce the polys on the derived surfaces on Maya? or is that unnecessary?

2. In the section refering to lighting for modelling: How do I do that in Maya?

3. Where can I find more stuff like this.

Lunatique
02-06-2003, 02:35 PM
Here's the latest prototype topology. God this one took forever. I was trying to do prototype where it'll not only work in Maya's sub'd, but also work well in XSI or other apps. Maya handles triangles and 5-sided polys fine in sub'd, but I wasn't sure if it'll be ok in other apps, so I went ahead and made it with as many quads as I can, without making the mesh too dense for easy manipulation.

My previous version has a mistake in it around the chin area, so I changed it for this version.

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/prototype-topology.jpg

gnarlycranium
02-08-2003, 11:26 PM
I've been spending so much time rooting around looking at head meshes, and helping other people with theirs, that I've started to notice some really BIG trends among the people who are just starting out-- most of them seem to make the same mistakes, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself as I try to help them.

I want to make a reference page for head modeling newbs that gives examples of these common mistakes.... but I'm going to need pictures. How do I round up a bunch of pictures of malformed heads to use as examples without getting anybody peeved at me? Anybody have some ideas?

I'd try to make some examples myself, but I'm not sure I could recreate some of that stuff anymore... heh. :p Maybe I'll just start a thread requesting that people donate pictures of their older work... hmmm...

Lunatique
02-09-2003, 03:55 AM
I was going to say Gallerie Abominate, but those are completely unusable--as they have no semblance to a human character at all. :D

Why not take one of your own meshes, and then just draw different topology in Photoshop? That way, you can even use different colored lines to emphasize right and wrong practices.

I just put up a topology research page on my website. Hehe, we're thinking along the same lines. :)

gnarlycranium
02-09-2003, 04:35 AM
Awww, and the Gallerie is down right now too..

I was thinkin more of general porportion and weirdness problems than topology specifically... and I don't have a wacom, so drawing anything in photoshop is kinda out, I'm hopeless with a mouse. I'll take a look at the stuff you put up on your website-- we can cover different things.. ought to be fun to see what we come up with! IF anybody answers my call for donations, that is.. heh.

tonygib
02-09-2003, 08:02 AM
Gnarly, Hows this little image for being total crap :rolleyes:

It was my first ever head, (yes I know, sad, I still have the max files for all this). In this case it was in fact done as patches, but still, there are enough problems in that one head to keep you busy for years to come. Note that the ears, while "seperate" do in fact sit flat when the face is all rounded out. I have a very high quality Tif image of this, just let me know if you want it and we can work out a way to send it too you it like 400K so will never fit in the attachment limit here :)

PS. Just so as to re-inforce a little street cred back, after that O' so shocking image, please look at page 3 of this thread to see my current WIP project :cool:

Boone
02-09-2003, 05:11 PM
Re: Gnarly C.

Well...it looks like I should be able to help you on this one! I think I'm using a diferent package to yours though...

Laa-Yosh
02-09-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by MukMan
1. It says "Mirai lets you reduce the polygons on the derived surface without disrupting the relationship between the control object and the derived surface."

Can you do that with Maya? Maya has the smoothproxy tool and the Subd modelling set that lets you use a low poly object to define a smoother version. My question is, can you reduce the polys on the derived surfaces on Maya? or is that unnecessary?


I'm quite positive that you cannot do that in any other package. However as computers get faster and faster, I belive that you don't really need this feature.


2. In the section refering to lighting for modelling: How do I do that in Maya?


Well, you can create two light sources, position them, than parent them to your persp camera. Then hide them so they won't disturb you.

3. Where can I find more stuff like this.

Once The Human Head is back online, make sure you read it. It's a pretty good page.
Also, I might be able to move my page to another site where I can easily update it. Right now I can't access the server for more than 6 months by now...

MukMan
02-10-2003, 01:58 AM
thank you so very much. I am glad someone actually replied to my questions. :eek:

On the subject of topology, wouldn't you want an edgeloops around the eyes to help define the cheekbone. Alot of people have a visibly raised section because their cheekbones are made that way. You have to have alot of extra fat in the face for that not to be visible. the image attached is an example draw in Paint with a crumby old mouse, but you get the idea. (The area circled in red is what i'm talking about.

Laa-Yosh
02-10-2003, 02:13 AM
The cheeck is a problematic area, as pointed out by the Human Head website :)
The flow of the surface shape - the topography - suggests one kind of topology. Now if you want to animate your face, you'll find that the directions of the movement in this area, caused by the stretching and sliding of the skin, are suggesting a different kind of topology that conflicts the previous one.
So, you have two kinds of solutions, either build a topology that supports your surface, or a topology that supports your animation requirements. Generally, the latter is considered to be the better.

bunk
02-10-2003, 04:20 AM
Just wanted to share my reverse engineered prototype topology. That way I was assured I wouldn't end up with tris where I didn't want them. The gif anim shows where polygons where removed, but since it plays backwards …are added ;) The lowest poly head would probably still work for toon heads. Didn’t try it out yet.

buildup.gif 440Kb (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/buildup.gif)

bunk

ThirdEye
02-10-2003, 01:50 PM
wow Bunk, really nice as usual! :thumbsup:

Lunatique
02-10-2003, 02:23 PM
bunk- can you go into detail on some of your decisions on this new mesh(post pics and discuss each in detail). It'd be interesting to hear the thinking behind the mesh. :)

bunk
02-10-2003, 09:54 PM
bunk- can you go into detail on some of your decisions on this new mesh(post pics and discuss each in detail). It'd be interesting to hear the thinking behind the mesh.

Hi Lunatique,

My main goal was to find a mesh without any tris and like you, I like the idea of a prototype I can start with. The raison I reverse modeled it was to make sure I wouldn't run into any pitfalls. My first mesh had this eye mouth loop which could give way too many polygons in places I didn't need them (although I always got away with it). Also it was harder with UVW maps because of that. So next to the 'no tris' it should give a more balanced polygon pattern. I think it works with these loop regions (at least I hope it will ;). Next I had Steven's advice in the back of my mind about the wrinkles, it shouldn't be to difficult to add them.
The only place I'm a bit concerned with is the nose bridge ...could get a bit crowded there with polygons. But I could for instance let one of the 'brow loops' follow the 'forhead/jaw loop' or let it follow the 'nose bridge/mouth loop' half way. In the end it will all depend on the model I'm after, I guess.

Here is a pic with the regions I was talking about:

poly_regions 162Kb (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/poly_regions.jpg)

Hope it explains it a bit better.

Note: I don't think there is anything special about this topology. Only thing that is maybe different from other meshes I have seen on the net is that I'm allergic to tris (there is one tri in the ear) and will do everything to avoid them, (unless it's for wrinkles added later on (which in itself is already a defeat;))

Cheers,

bunk

AdamT
02-11-2003, 12:18 AM
A most helpful description, Bunk. :thumbsup:

bunk
02-11-2003, 03:08 AM
A most helpful description, Bunk.

I doubt it Adam.
Already changed the mesh. The crowded nose thing was bugging me too much.

Hope I've got a solution now with which I can live for more then one day, damn this proto_poly thing is driving me nuts! ;)

new mesh (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/develop_2.jpg)

comparison (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/compare.jpg)

bunk

bunk
02-11-2003, 03:16 AM
Aargh, I just saw that I have been running in loops. I'm back to where I begun with mesh_development, only a view polygons difference.

Sorry for polluting this thread. Will crawl back under my stone now.

bunk

AdamT
02-11-2003, 05:00 AM
Face it (pun), there's no perfect topology. You've put together (collected?) some nice examples and a coherent explanation of your reasoning. That's helpful in this area which is so lacking in comprehensive instruction.

I wish Bay or any of the stars of polygon modeling would write a nice, long, well thought out book on the topic. I doubt it would make the Times best sellers list, but I think a lot of copies would be sold.

Lunatique
02-11-2003, 05:45 AM
bunk-- don't be so hard on yourself man. Your posts were totally awesome. I for one will definitely be checking my mesh against yours to see where I could make improvements on mine.

This topology thing is definitely a game of research and development. Obviously some guys take it far more seriously than others(like us freaks who posted in this thread). It's a fascinating subject, because it not only requires artistic decisions, but also scientific ones.

Lunatique
02-11-2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by AdamT
Face it (pun), there's no perfect topology. You've put together (collected?) some nice examples and a coherent explanation of your reasoning. That's helpful in this area which is so lacking in comprehensive instruction.

I wish Bay or any of the stars of polygon modeling would write a nice, long, well thought out book on the topic. I doubt it would make the Times best sellers list, but I think a lot of copies would be sold.

I'd like to think an universal topology could be designed. It might not meet all the demands of all kinds of faces, but it'll meet MOST of them, and only require MINOR changes to fit into a head that has special requirements.

Hmm.... a book on topology. That's a VERY interesting idea. Wonder who's up to it?

RichSuchy
02-11-2003, 02:11 PM
Lunatique,

Originally posted by Lunatique
I'd like to think an universal topology could be designed. It might not meet all the demands of all kinds of faces, but it'll meet MOST of them, and only require MINOR changes to fit into a head that has special requirements.

Hmm.... a book on topology. That's a VERY interesting idea. Wonder who's up to it?

I think Steven Stahlberg was on the right track to the universal topology, except for two points. His relies on Mayas Sub-D levels of division and the ability to edit them at increasing levels of complexity. In a pipeline that uses Renderman, or requires outputting .obj s to use on an another software such as Max, Those edits would be lost.

In a single software Pipeline, where higher level tweaks can be made, I'd go for a close aproximation of Steven Stahlbergs aproach.

If one models for only one level of subdivision one would have to add some detail to his topology around the eyes.

I think also that one can use a variation of his topology where the triangles are avoided by continuing the loops that terminate in triangles, and connect them under the chin. I try to avoid triangles in any stretchable part of my topology because they dont average in a nicely controlable manor in any non flat topology. its just a preference, not a law.

I am intrigued by the nose he did in that it is able to do nice skin wrinkling at higher levels of subdivision.

Steven Stahlbergs Topology (http://www.androidblues.com/topology.jpg)

I may have to incorperate that into my one level design.

My Topology (http://www.cgsculpt.com/images/facetopology2.jpg)

I used to have mine be simpler, but have found I needed more to control the shape of the expressions better with no depth 2 or lower edits.

Rich

ThirdEye
02-11-2003, 04:13 PM
What do u think about Dave Komorowski's topology and extremely dense meshes? I also feel confortable when i have a so dense mesh, I like to use many complete loops to put wrinkles and details where I need. (I hope he doesn't mind if I put here some of his meshes)

ThirdEye
02-11-2003, 04:15 PM
2

Lunatique
02-11-2003, 09:30 PM
Hehe. The first mesh of the child--mine looks almost exactly like it, except much lighter in density, and the outer corner of the eyes have a specific split leading to the forehead using the Stahlberg split. :D

Shannon
02-12-2003, 05:51 AM
This just rocks my world.

http://www.cg-art.i12.com/freak5_1280by960.jpg
http://www.cg-art.i12.com/ft7.jpg

http://www.cg-art.i12.com/pictures.html

Stahlberg
02-12-2003, 07:39 AM
I agree with Lunatique and Rich Suchy.
Here's an example of how similar we are, below the surface.
Look at this image; John Cleese, Richard Harris, Anna Kournikova, Anthony Quinn, a few other portraits I found on my hard disk... they all display the infraorbital furrow. We all have it, except in some very young children and very fat people it's hidden. (The fatty deposit on the cheek just below it grows and kind of merges with the smaller deposit just under the eye.)
I have a visible dent there, my 7 year old son has it, young, old, black, white, even most of the actors in Kurosawa's Rashomon (which I saw the other night).

Now it's hard to see this in some still images, because people who want to be as pretty as possible use diffuse light and even makeup to hide wrinkles. But most women have it fully visible - tv is a better source for reference here. Especially dramas, but any program that displays talking heads in varying light. Look at the cheek - it's more visible in glancing light, even better if the actor is sweaty or wet. It's almost always visible.

http://www.androidblues.com/infraorbital.jpg

IMO it has to be included in any realistic human face model. It may vary a few millimeters in it's starting point, and a bit more than that in its ending point, but nothing that can't be tweaked on a model.
The other direction of edges should be the contour of the cheekbone, running from the temple to just below the nostrils (not all the way to them but in that direction).

This is just one example, but the other major furrows and wrinkles follow the same principle - always there, just varying slightly in start and end points, and more or less visible. The only character-type I'd do a halfway new mesh for would be a very fat one, as mentioned before.

edit: here's another view of the major furrows and shapes that IMO must be included. (Sorry Luna I used your icon hope you don't mind :)) I think we have to start with these as the basis, and then work 'outward' from them - try as best we can to fit them into a mesh that works. As you see where I marked in green, we run into trouble. There are several ways to solve that, depending on your app and your particular needs. The lines marked in red should be seen as inviolate though, and not to be 'compromised'... :)

http://www.androidblues.com/Lunyicon.jpg

ThirdEye
02-12-2003, 04:51 PM
Hi Steven, can I ask you why did you decide to use subds in Maya instead of polys? Thank you :wavey:

chudofsinister
02-12-2003, 04:58 PM
This may seem a little off topic but what is the difference between sub D's and polys in Maya. in Max which is what I am used to they are basically the same. Can someone relate the answer in Max terms. thanks.

bjarneheden
02-12-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by chudofsinister
This may seem a little off topic but what is the difference between sub D's and polys in Maya. in Max which is what I am used to they are basically the same. Can someone relate the answer in Max terms. thanks.

Have a look at this link:
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=320

It explains it pretty well.

/Bjarne

ThirdEye
02-12-2003, 05:09 PM
That explanation is good but not precise and exact, it's simply an artist point of view trying to explain something involved with mathematics. Lightwave, Mirai, C4D, Max, XSI, Maya all have true subdivision surfaces. Maya's are a bit different, they're procedural, layered and resolution independent (and really really slow from what i've heard).

chudofsinister
02-12-2003, 05:18 PM
thanks that was interesting reading but not really what I was after. i was specifically wondering about Mayas sub-d vs polygon editing mode. I guess they are both subd's but only one is "true" sub-d rendering. My question was what is the prefered work flow, I am guessing sud-d polyediting then convert to true Subd for fine adjustment of specific areas. yes... no?

AdamT
02-12-2003, 05:58 PM
I think that post on the Scifi forum is BS. Here's the reply I just wrote, although when I tried to post it I got a message that the forum isn't accepting new posts:

I think describing Maya's SDS as "true" SDS and all of the other implementations as "not" SDS is simply incorrect. It is SDS if it creates a derived surface from a lower polygon cage using Catmull-Clark or similar algorithm. As has been said, the final result in each case is simply a smoother, more subdivided mesh. Maya does this at render time while other applications display the subdivided mesh in the editor. Alias did not invent SDS and Maya is not the only application that employs it.

Don't get me wrong--Maya has the best SDS out there, and it's hierarchical subdivision is, AFAIK, unique. But let's not create confusion about definitions where none exists.

chudofsinister
02-12-2003, 06:11 PM
I didnt mean this to flow off topic. Just at the basic level of you topology for a head in Maya. what are people working with polygons or like a subd sphere.

flingster
02-13-2003, 12:42 AM
this is a fantastic thread....any chance a mod can make it sticky?

surely the head topology concept and method depend on what you intend to use it for...animation or static image? hence the variance in method diplayed in this thread....just a thought.

well done by the way to all those who contributed....as a complete novice it has lots of appeal to users of virtually any 3d software app.:buttrock:

ThirdEye
02-13-2003, 01:26 AM
Ahem... it's already sticky :p

Btw i think that head modeling has to be targeted to animation. I don't think anybody is going to hire someone who makes extraordinary heads that don't deform ;)

gnarlycranium
02-13-2003, 03:11 AM
From what I've seen, the best methods for making animatable heads are also the most efficient, intuitive, and easy to get the right shape in. If the head is animatable, that's just because it was built well in the first place. If you were doing a static image of a head... wouldn't you build it pretty much the same way? You might be a little less fussy... but still.

Stahlberg
02-13-2003, 03:28 AM
Yes, I'd definitely recommend to always build a head as if it's going to be animated, because it forces you to think more about structure, it turns out more real, and who knows - you might want to animate it down the road! :)

About Maya SubD's, I chose them over polys because of the hierachical feature, which I love.
But I also work with polys - I'll explain. I have my own workflow that it seems no one else shares... :hmm: at least I've never met anyone on these forums that say they do.

The difference: from what I understand most people use the Poly Proxy mode to work in, make edits, add or delete edges, etc. Like you can in LW or Max. This works fine on a simple object, but it quickly becomes impossible on something more complex, like a face, due to Maya's implementation causing drastic slow-down. I didn't know that this was the way it was done in other packages, so in my isolation I 'invented' my own way that accidentally seems to work pretty good. :)

This is what I do: start in polys, then at a certain level of complexity start jumping back and forth between normal polys and standard mode SubD's. This is easily accomplished by 2 buttons on my modeling shelf (see the how-to section of my site).
I can keep this up for days, tweaking in both SubD's and polys, and editing topology in polys. Of course once I take the plunge and go for the hierarchical edits I can't go back to polys anymore without loosing those edits.

I avoid SubD's in Proxy mode like the plague, due to the slowdown. Though occasionally I have to go there, either for some minor emergency topology change (when I don't want to loose my hierarchical edits), or to fix gaps that can appear in the model and in the UV's (some kind of bug I think).

RichSuchy
02-13-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Stahlberg
This is what I do: start in polys, then at a certain level of complexity start jumping back and forth between normal polys and standard mode SubD's. This is easily accomplished by 2 buttons on my modeling shelf (see the how-to section of my site).
I can keep this up for days, tweaking in both SubD's and polys, and editing topology in polys. Of course once I take the plunge and go for the hierarchical edits I can't go back to polys anymore without loosing those edits.
Up until you "take the plunge" we work essentially the same.

I'm most intrigued by the rigging issues with your method. It buys you allot by not needing to re-rig from the ground up. I will have to give it a go with a more stripped down base model, than I currently use.

Heres a work around for not being able to go back.

1. create a blend shape for the lower level edits (a copy) before going to poly mode,

2. create a clean level 0 model to blended.

3. Use the clean one as a wrap deformer on your new derived geometry. then

4. delete history.

I think that will do it.
The difference: from what I understand most people use the Poly Proxy mode to work in, make edits, add or delete edges, etc. Like you can in LW or Max. This works fine on a simple object, but it quickly becomes impossible on something more complex, like a face, due to Maya's implementation causing drastic slow-down.
I agree. Even in Lightwave I worked primarily in Polygons only do some tweeks in Sub-D mode. Its just less convoluted visually, and less unwieldy with big models.
...Maya's implementation causing drastic slow-down. I didn't know that this was the way it was done in other packages, so in my isolation I 'invented' my own way that accidentally seems to work pretty good. :)
Thats one reason I was intrigued by XSI. It is so much more responsive with the same geometry. It doesnt require such heavy workarounds for rigiiging either. Id say that the people over there were listening to the artists. I still have much to learn about the program and some still about its implementation of Sub-Ds

I hear Marai has the ability to delete geometry from a derived surface while still retaining the root level unmodified. Is this true?

Im not sure what it would buy you because you would have to carry the data for the edit history, but I might think of some good uses when an apropriate situation presents itself.

chudofsinister
02-13-2003, 10:04 PM
wow thats awsome, steven stahlberg replied to a question I had. I feel like a giddy school girl. No really thanks for the info. I have been trying to learn maya oh.. going on three years now, on and off. I am pretty damn confident with max, but it sounds like from
Rich S that you need to jump through a bunch of hoops to get a sub D model to animate. I dont quite get it, in max I model the low poly cage bind it to a skeleton and throw the meshsmooth on top of the whole mess, how is it different. Again i apologize if this is off topic and if you want to move this to another thread I totally understand. i have a head i will post soon that i have been working on, just a little intimidated by the present company.
thanks

flingster
02-13-2003, 10:05 PM
ThirdEye_01: DOH:wip: ....ooops sorry guys i came in from another link! still no excuse....rather sloppy of me...musta been late no coffee....:eek:

as for the static or animation bit....i agree with you its good practice by the sounds of it to make it able to deform....but you also have to remember you are thinking about the issue from a commercial point of view and who hires/fires your ass when its on the line...but if you're modelling for an image/artwork that is never ever gonna be rigged....its less about planning deformation with a rig and more about getting what you want to see in your final static image...
just a thought.....loving the thread very informative for all.:cool:

Stahlberg
02-14-2003, 02:38 AM
Rich - so your workflow is similar! Cool, I'm not alone. :)
But I'm not sure that Blendshape idea would work for the purpose you said, since the point of 'going back' and loosing higher level edits would be to change the topology, and even a small change in topology would invalidate the Blendshape (I assume, I've never tried it)...
However!
The idea is very good and works fine for UV mapping problems, something I've actually done. It works well, and what a blessing that is too... :)

Editing UV's on a hierarchical SubD can crash Maya, and you have a gazillion more points to move, also often the UV's will get totally screwed (for several different reasons)...
Then you can go back to polys and clean the UV's up, and get the higher level detail back using a Blendshape like you said.

chudofsinister
02-14-2003, 03:17 AM
Well here is my head with the topology I used. Still a work in progress like everything.
http://home.nc.rr.com/craigvance/images/3d/big/superman.jpg

RichSuchy
02-14-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Stahlberg
Rich - so your workflow is similar! Cool, I'm not alone. :)
But I'm not sure that Blendshape idea would work for the purpose you said, since the point of 'going back' and loosing higher level edits would be to change the topology, and even a small change in topology would invalidate the Blendshape (I assume, I've never tried it)...
However!
The idea is very good and works fine for UV mapping problems, something I've actually done. It works well, and what a blessing that is too... :)
Im not sure. Do you loose the edits of the higher level tweeks or the complete refined area is lost? A more complicated workaround where you make selection groups of geometry that will be refined, ahead of time, would make this method possible... alot depends on how drastic your modifications will be and setting the influence of the wrapper. Ill have to test it on a sphere or some such when I have a moment.
Originally posted by Stahlberg
[B]Editing UV's on a hierarchical SubD can crash Maya, and you have a gazillion more points to move, also often the UV's will get totally screwed (for several different reasons)...
Then you can go back to polys and clean the UV's up, and get the higher level detail back using a Blendshape like you said.

Good use. I wish you could tell maya to subdivide the UVs acording to the way the root is subdivided rather than an even split. I've noticed #D Studio MAx 5 does this... SOmetimes it could actually cause mapping to be harder, but I would rather have that than have the funky stretching of trianglular shaped quads (used for increasing local detail, among other things)

RichSuchy
02-14-2003, 08:43 AM
Just though of another solution... though maybe I should change this to a TD or Rigging thread... save your mel out (frequently) at the refined levels of the edits. I don't believe maya changes point numbering when you delete components. then just apply the cleaned up mel (after removing all the do/undos) and other types of edits you would want or need. you can always apply this script to you original model to get it back to where you want it... and in fact can just edit out mistakes if thats easier.

A little more time consuming as you go, but it would be very useful down the road.

Rich

Stahlberg
02-14-2003, 08:48 AM
Yes, Stefan Tabacco posted a tut on something like this a while a go, with a melscript called EditRecovery, seems promising, can't find it now...

RichSuchy
02-14-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by chudofsinister
Well here is my head with the topology I used. Still a work in progress like everything.
http://home.nc.rr.com/craigvance/topology.jpg

Nice model. my only coment is considder how you would make him worried. There isnt enough detail to get the expression in the skin of the forehead without deforming the shape of the bone structure under it.

RichSuchy
02-14-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Stahlberg
Yes, Stefan Tabacco posted a tut on something like this a while a go, with a melscript called EditRecovery, seems promising, can't find it now...
Even cooler!

Dipesh (India)
02-16-2003, 05:33 PM
carry on the topic...:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

RichSuchy
02-18-2003, 09:50 PM
What topic?

Originally posted by Dipesh (India)
carry on the topic...:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

robkoni
02-20-2003, 10:23 PM
Hi Rich ,Thought you were a LW kinda Guy,took a lookat your topology after ,just finishing a new head myself and its quite freaky how close they are:eek: especialy the Midlle Brow section,with the 4 sided poly (looks like a threesided)stradleing the centre line..................
when Ive got time i'll post it(in the middle of building many characters,with no time:buttrock:
All the best Robin

robkoni
02-20-2003, 10:31 PM
:bounce: I love those Bouncy's ,Hi Rich Katherin 'scoming a long(looks a bit stretche in the Neck and Torso()Everyones a CRITIC)
just wondering how long the modelling took you,;)
Allthe best Robin.......again:bounce:

:bounce:

flingster
02-21-2003, 08:50 PM
IGNORE - SORRY

RichSuchy
02-21-2003, 09:05 PM
[Originally posted by robkoni
Hi Rich ,Thought you were a LW kinda Guy,took a lookat your topology after ,just finishing a new head myself and its quite freaky how close they are

I havn't use Lightwave in about a year, (though I could if needed)

Send it in when you can.

RichSuchy
02-21-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by robkoni
:bounce: I love those Bouncy's ,Hi Rich Katherin 'scoming a long(looks a bit stretche in the Neck and Torso()Everyones a CRITIC)
just wondering how long the modelling took you,;)
Allthe best Robin.......again:bounce:

:bounce:

I'm not sure how long that model took (Im asuming you mean the one on my aborted web page www.geocities.com/richardsuchy... Building a new one elswhere... But if it is true to form about a weeks worth of work (5 to 7 days) When I work on a model at home I rarely get more than a few hours on the computer at a time, and many days none at all... Currently Im on Tremors in Hollywood, making creatures, so The spare time is sparse at best.

The new model I made in XSI took something less than a week. All of these models were built from scratch. I intend to do one more character model from scratch... (In NURBS) just to prove a point, and then Ill be using simplified generalized models as a starting place to speed things up.

bono3d
02-22-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Laa-Yosh
The cheeck is a problematic area, as pointed out by the Human Head website :)
The flow of the surface shape - the topography - suggests one kind of topology. Now if you want to animate your face, you'll find that the directions of the movement in this area, caused by the stretching and sliding of the skin, are suggesting a different kind of topology that conflicts the previous one.
So, you have two kinds of solutions, either build a topology that supports your surface, or a topology that supports your animation requirements. Generally, the latter is considered to be the better.

Laa-Yosh,
do you have any wires with these 2 types of topology from the same model? It will help a lot....

Thank you guys for these amazing topic!

Lunatique
02-23-2003, 02:24 AM
Here's the latest female prototype mesh. I think I've got it where I want it finally--unless one of you kickass bastards put up another stunning mesh and inspire more changes. :D

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/head-female-base.jpg

Boone
02-23-2003, 03:51 PM
Re: Lunatique.

Yeah! It looks great!;)

...if only my system could cope with openGL...:annoyed:

gnarlycranium
02-28-2003, 01:50 PM
The Human Head (http://www.thehumanhead.com/) website is back up!!! Rejoice and be happy!! :cool:

Lunatique
02-28-2003, 02:20 PM
Damn. Looks like it's going through a router that has been banned by China.

Oh well, at least I made a copy of the entire site right before it disappeared. :D

ceql
02-28-2003, 02:28 PM
hmm you could always try going thru a proxy server if that's the case... I think ;)

chudofsinister
02-28-2003, 03:07 PM
yee ha, human head. You said you downloaded the entire sight. is there an easier way to do this other than going through each page and saving it one at a time. thanks.

Coen
02-28-2003, 04:23 PM
Try it with a ftp program. In interarchy (mac) there is an option to download an entire site.
Pretty sure there are more ftp clients which let you do this,

hth

coen

Lunatique
02-28-2003, 04:24 PM
Teleport Pro is my weapon of choice.

gnarlycranium
02-28-2003, 04:38 PM
.....China can ban routers..... and keep you from seeing The Human Head site? Yeeeeeesh, they really are evil! :argh:

As for that last head mesh you posted, Lunatique-- the nose looks great. That part, especially between the eyes and nose, always gives me a huge hassle.

Are you sure you want that little pole-doohickey arrangement above the outer side of the brow? I've ended up with that a bunch of times, and it drives me nuts. Seems like there must be a better way... it looks like it comes down to a choice between doing it like that, or running the edges from the corner of the mouth up around the side of the face to the forehead instead of straight back to the ear.

I'm also curious to know how you're planning on dealing with the 5-side on the front of the cheek next to the nose-- will you just leave it an ngon and not worry about it, or chop it to quads with later detailing?

Lunatique
03-01-2003, 01:26 AM
Ya, China bans routers that contains anything that seems to be a "dissenting voice" against China. The humanhead site might just happen to be going through one of those major routers. I personally got to witness that censorship in action a few months ago. My amazon.com orders were intercepted by the Post-office Customs, and I had to go there to deal with it. While there, I saw an office filled with dictionaries of English to Chinese, Japanese to Chinese, French to Chinese...etc, and magazines, books..etc on the office desks of employees. I chatted with one of them, and I had guessed right--they were looking for dissenting material contained in literature in the postal packages. One guy had a Time magazine that had an article about the corrupt education system in China, and he was going through it at a snail's pace trying to translate it with a dictionary and seeing if it contained enough dissenting thoughts to be confiscated.

Hehe, I went through quite a few versions of the nose bridge. I tried some exotic and non-orthodoxed methods, and I realized it would be a hassel to extract those polys if I ever need to. I do feature transplants sometimes between models--ripping out eyes, noses, mouths...etc, so I needed a topology that also allows for easy transplanting. :D

The outer brow looks like that because there's a wrinkle that runs from the outer corner of the eyes to the forhead. Stahlberg's mesh demonstrates that very well, and few people seems to know there's a wrinkle there(maybe it's because it only shows up in extreme distorted expressions).

Whatever "pole-doohickey" or n-gon arrangements are only there during the base mesh level. Once I up the level for more detail, they should all disappear. I'm also using Maya, so poly arrangements are solved a bit differently in Maya's sub'd.

gnarlycranium
03-01-2003, 12:52 PM
Dang... you and yer wife really gotta get over here, dood. The US ain't all great, maybe.... but dang! :surprised I worry about you guys sometimes.

As for the brow area-- I'm talking about the spot where you have the 3-edge pole. It works, but I've always found it a bit awkward, and I end up bringing the edges from the mouth up around to the forehead instead.

Wish I could get away with the stuff you Maya guys can do, that spot on the cheek is such a pain.

gnarlycranium
03-04-2003, 10:35 AM
I've started my head modeling page, if anybody wants a look...

Malformed Head Project: Page 01, Using Reference (http://www.logrhythms.com/Leah/tuts/BH01.html)

chudofsinister
03-04-2003, 03:04 PM
Wow I just read through your head sight info. You have some great information in a very straight forward presentation. Nice job, and thanks. I picked up a couple of things I had long repressed.

gnarlycranium
03-04-2003, 05:44 PM
Really think so? Kickass! :buttrock:

JIII
03-04-2003, 08:38 PM
that page should be required reading for anyone who is trying to model a head. its so much easyier to read it than spend hours trying to get the eyes and fore head and ..... in the right spots. great site man

Jide
03-04-2003, 11:35 PM
Unless I'm horribly mistaken you should actually say 'great site woman' ;) (And if I'm wrong then please don't kill me, Gnarly)

I agree that it's a great site. I hope there's more to come?

lostpencil
03-05-2003, 06:06 AM
Hey Folks,

Great thread! Being mostly an animator, it's good to hear people plan their head meshes with animation in mind. Anyway, as a side note: I'm sure you have seen this link, but it is an interesting analysis of 'beauty':

http://www.beautyanalysis.com/index2_mba.htm

gnarlycranium
03-05-2003, 08:41 AM
Jide -- Yeah, yeah, I'm no man... though I get called it often enough that I don't even notice anymore, it's just an expression. :p


I'm so glad you guys are likin that page!! It's utterly spiffy!! And yeah, there will be more later-- whole thing is still under construction. If you have any recommendations, let me know! :D


lostpencil -- The ironic thing about that 'beauty' page is just how SCARY their 'ideal face mask' (http://www.beautyanalysis.com/images/SFMask_printable.jpg) looks... :argh:

lostpencil
03-05-2003, 08:44 AM
:) Yep, it's pretty scary looking on it's own, but as a overlay you can see how it sort of works.

buzzlightyr
03-05-2003, 10:47 AM
There's to much to read to much to learn my heads going to burst :annoyed:

gnarlycranium
03-05-2003, 12:10 PM
You mean someplace specific (this thread, my page, or something), buzz, or just the world in general? (if you mean the world in general... gah... no kidding)

JIII
03-05-2003, 07:43 PM
great site woman.

Sorry about that i didnt really know.

skello
03-12-2003, 04:56 AM
IMO as long as it's not a nurbs model topology does not realy matter.....Topology is really important for good uv layout though
Nevertheless it is good to have a good understanding of how the model is going to be animated so as to put geometry in the proper places........for shizzle!!!.

fortner
03-16-2003, 06:35 AM
man, this thread is awesome...thanks for putting up all of the wire frames. I just wanted to get some feedback on the topology that i used for this head. http://www.mikefortner.com/pages/anatomy_child_head.htm I really just need some affirmation, cause I think i totally understand what you all are saying, but since I have not animated it yet, i'm not possitive if it works.

Also, I generally use the add topology in polys, sculpt in sub-d, method of modelling...it's really cool to see that some other talented people do the same. I've been called crazy from some great modellers for doing that.


www.mikefortner.com

Lunatique
03-16-2003, 07:14 AM
fortner_m-- the most glaring one is the laugh wrinkle. It should connect from top of the wings of the nose going around the corners of the mouth, and then close between the bottom lip and the chin.

ceql
03-16-2003, 02:31 PM
ahh I love this thread!

I'm after some topology advice too, I've been looking at this thread for a while now, and am cleaning up the topology of a model I've been working on... I'd like to know if I'm doing it right! If anyone has spare time... http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=465798#post465798 I haven't had any animation experience either, so, I'd appreciate any insight at all! :) :bounce:

Lunatique
03-16-2003, 03:18 PM
ceql-- from the front view, her ears are not only too high, but not "attached" enough to her head.

From the profile, her neck comes waaay too forward, making her look like she's got a strange chin. The back of her skull is off too.

Topology wise, I see some potential problems.

The yellow is proportional fixes, and pink is topology fixes.

These are my preferences, and in no way are they the best way to do things.

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/temp/ceql-fix.jpg

fortner
03-16-2003, 07:53 PM
thanks lunatique....that helps a lot.

ceql
03-17-2003, 12:52 AM
Wow!! Thank you sooo much Lunatique!!! :bounce: :bounce: :beer: All the suggested changes make sense to me, thanks!!

ceql
03-17-2003, 03:33 AM
I started implementing some of the changes today, and it's working out pretty well thus far... much cleaner aound the mouth especially! :D Thanks Lunatique! I lub j00 man! :beer:

I should be finished with the changes when I get all these essays out of the way! ;)

FallenSwordsman
03-18-2003, 02:27 PM
I know its going slightly off the topic of topology but does anyone have a particular order in creating facial features that makes the topology construction process easier?

For instance at the moment I first draw out a profile line so at least I know where I'm going and perhaps a jawline and mouth line just as guides, then I will build eyeballs, eyebrows, eyelids, jawline, nose, mouth then ears.

Does order of construction really matter?

Lunatique
03-19-2003, 05:11 AM
I've been using the Dave way(www.thehobbitguy.com) exclusively, so I do them all at the same time. But the few times I tried box-modelling, I started with general shape first, then start refining the eye loops first, then the laugh wrinkles, the nose, the lips, the jaw line, then the neck.

gnarlycranium
03-19-2003, 11:14 AM
The way I've found to go the most smoothly for me is to start with circles of polys around the eyes and mouth, and just extrude edges outwards from there, and hook it all together, then attach it to a skull I made a while back with Wiro's box modeling tutorial. Think detail-out without actually adding a lot of detail until I've got the whole shape blocked in, and know I have the loops going how I want. If that makes sense.

ivo D
03-19-2003, 09:55 PM
i just started modelling my reall ..worthy head..
but i think the topology aint.. great.

so after this ill make a base mesh. and look at all your
whire frames.. and make one of it..

so i can allways model from that, and hopefully ill get the hang of it.

but this is what i have now

http://lightning3d.250free.com/3%20heads%20FPS.jpg

i wont even show you the whire heheh lol :)

ill get it exactly right the next time.. it aint for animation this one so

Pauldls
03-25-2003, 05:29 AM
I see tons of wonderful heads but how exactly do you guys get them like that? I assume most of you use box modeling or the "dave-k way"? if you could give a breif overview of your techniques/ workflow (like do you start roughing in the brows and nose first, or the lips and work up ect)


Thanks :thumbsup:

RichSuchy
03-25-2003, 05:43 AM
Since I started with Lightwave and moved on to Maya, XSI, and Houdini, Ive used diferent approaches and mixes of them as they suit my mood.

Diferent software tools offer diferent flavors of essentially the same tools.

I started out with the poly by poly method, moved on to box modeling, then found that building very rough shapes from a box using poly cutting tools can also give you very precise and speedy results. When it comes down to it, knowing what you want from your topology is all that really maters, not how you get there.


That being said Its usually a good idea to prepare radial areas for extruding more detail at some stage of the process... meaning the eyes or mouth areas for instance. extruding(smoothshifting for you lightwave people) will get you the added rings quickly. I generally work rough and then use a subdividing tool (like bandsaw) for the bands of gemetry to further refine the eye lits or lips.

Explore the tools your software gives you for speedy waqys to get the topologies you want... Straight box extruding is initially fast but I find i end up losing the time i gained trying to refine the topology once I have the geometry i got so quickly.

Originally posted by Pauldls
I see tons of wonderful heads but how exactly do you guys get them like that? I assume most of you use box modeling or the "dave-k way"? if you could give a breif overview of your techniques/ workflow (like do you start roughing in the brows and nose first, or the lips and work up ect)


Thanks :thumbsup:

Lunatique
03-25-2003, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
When it comes down to it, knowing what you want from your topology is all that really maters, not how you get there.


I absolutely agree. That's how I feel too. That's why I always map out my topology(whatever I CAN map out) on a 2D image first and do my planning that way, THEN I do the actual 3D model. Once you have a good idea what the topology is like, you can model with just about any method and get there--the preference is up to you.

FallenSwordsman
03-25-2003, 07:59 AM
From my earlier post you can see the order in which I create heads just because thats the way I find easiest for me. A lot of how you get there depends on personal preference by the looks of things but for me one of the most fundamentally important things is to plan ahead. Don't just leap in and say "Oh boy, gotta do a head" and then go straight down to the details because unless you're good or well practiced, you're probably going to become unstuck. I usually have an idea of what I'm going to do before I lay down my first polygon and usually have some kind of reference splines worked out first - those will define things such as general shape and positioning of the facial features. This way, you don't become unstuck later finding that the nose is all the wrong shape or the back of the head is all cock-eyed - planning ahead helps a lot!

Personal workflow - define position of eyeballs first. I have a couple of generic eyeballs that I use for all models. Get a basic ring of polygons around to make the shape of the eyelids (and this is where I depart from other people) then make the brow ridge and the top part of the nose, then go back to the eyelids and extrude out to the brow ridge and nose you've created, then create the jawline so you have some idea what the boundaries of your face is, then go back and create the rest of the nose, then create a mouth outline - smoothshift inward to create the lips, smoothshift outward to create the mouth barrel, then quiver and panic about ears. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should do it, its just the way I prefer to work.

ivo D
03-25-2003, 08:47 AM
it is really hard to get this.. and it doesnt sound logical at all..
you cant just now how big you should make the polys etc etc..well.. uh..

i just dont get it.. the bnofit of doing brows then nose than brows again i mean

could you draw it out.. in collors.. *red*stage one green stage 2 ,yellow stage 3 etc..

caus if its good..it woul be a cool think to know;):bounce: :applause:

wasamonkey
04-05-2003, 08:08 AM
decided to venture outside of the wings forum and read whatever looked interesting
I have been doing alot of topology studies especially lately

one thing I had been missing until just a few days ago while looking at the faces of ppl in magazines for some sketched out layouts

muscles seem to mainly run in one derection and the skin flows in another
the direstion the skin flows in it the same direction and the creases that are formed on it

another think I started to observe that didnt match up with what alot of ppl are useing is creating triangles for edge loops that could and probably should be present

for example, around a persons mouth when they smile sometimes 2 lines a formed like 2 strings under a sheet
but as it goes up to the cheek and into the nose it becomes one
or does it?

alot of ppl just add tris and make the detail local
but as I looked closely and at more and more faces on this detail in particular I realized and noticed something almost to faint on some of the faces
the wrinkle came out from the underside or down in the crease of the one next to it and accually ran under the nose along the skin direction

continuing on I payed even more attention to the flow of the skin
it would appear after many hrs and 100's of pictures that the basic loop construction of the face is so simple its almost funny
all the skin loops form around the mouth all the way up to the fore head and all around the sides and down to the neck and under skin of the jaw

there is a variation on this, the skin on the nose as far as wrinkles sometimes brakes this but not severly and the skin around the eyes themselves radiates around the opening

I know this is getting a bit long not much longer I hope

I took some images off the net to test some things
I began same as luna and followed the creases
i followed them to where they were so faint they were no longer visable, at this point I was looking at it and saying im getting no where fast

then I noticed yet again something I was over looking
loops were starting to point in the direction of muscles
and when they were added I found areas that worked perfectly with these lines running like they were

right now I dont have the topology finished but as soon as I do I will try and get someone to host it for me

I would like to say one other thing regarding an earlier comment by laa-yosh
tho topology from one face to another does varie and I would never use a base model to start, I do feel that there is a degree where all face topology is the same to a great extent even into the details of creases
but the geometry is different and who would want to push any more points than they have to


hope im not just waisting your time and gave you all something to think about

cheers

JIII
04-05-2003, 07:58 PM
post some pics with the topography drawn over it.

that would be uber cool if you did ;)

thost are some interesting observations.

flingster
04-05-2003, 08:36 PM
hey guys would any of these links help you with facial musculature stuff being talked about.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~ameredit/anatomysite/Muscles%20of%20the%20Face%20and%20Mouthnotes.htm

http://www.renew.freeuk.com/learning/arts/portraits.html

http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG/CESCG-2001/MSimunek/


may be a bit OTT...but also useful me thinks...

sasquatch
04-11-2003, 12:28 PM
And once you've got all your topology sorted out, here's the next step:

The Facial Action Coding System (http://dataface.nirc.com/Expression/FACS/facs.html)

Paul Ekman's 30-odd years of research into the way we understand human facial movement is a great resource for facial animation. I'm working my way through it at the moment. It's also a good reference for topology setup as it works off of observable facial movement, rather than individual muscle contractions, which can alter the way you model certain structures in the face.

Neox
04-16-2003, 08:37 PM
ok maybe a little late but here is a head i recently did, and i'm now working on :)

http://neox.gfx-scene.de/public/advices/head_topology.gif

chudofsinister
04-16-2003, 08:44 PM
No such thing as late. Nice head. did you use the hobbit guys stuff as reference.

Neox
04-16-2003, 08:46 PM
definately not :)
the only references i had were photos from actors such as Ving Rames, Micheal Clarke Duncan and some more photos, mainly no orthogrphic shots, and to imageplanes for the proportions

;edit: i don't even like the method which the hobbit guy is using :D :edit:

psumo
04-23-2003, 09:32 AM
This is a cool thread
I haven't got the time to look through all the topos
but I think the best and most versitile is the second
one that thirdeye posted

pixar uses a similar topo to get all the wrinkles and extreme poses
needed

RiBRaT
05-04-2003, 03:40 AM
Hi all,

This is the most helpful thread on this board, well for me anyway.

I'm working on a high resolution bird, supposedly a prehistoric terradactal crosed with modern day Amazon Toucan.

How am I going with topology?

http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/birdw.jpg

http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/bird.jpg

My homepage under construction (http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/)

Regards,
RibRaT

Neox
05-04-2003, 04:20 PM
are you working out of a nurbs sphere or any other nurbs primitive? then its pretty hard to get a real topology... try to work with nurbs patches or sds / boxmodelling :)

Laa-Yosh
05-04-2003, 06:30 PM
Ribrat:
I don't mean to offend, but there's not much topology to speak about on your model. You have practicaly no localized detail, just a zillion polygons and it seems like you try to sculpt the surface with Artisian only. This method will produce a model that is incredibly heavy and consumes a lot of memory to render; and it will also be a nightmare to rig and weight.

If you'd like to get some advice, well, first forget Artisian and learn to use the Split Poly tool to add detail. Also familiarize yourself with the concept of edgeloops and derived surfaces; there's a bunch of stuff on the subdiv page at http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv to read.

RiBRaT
05-05-2003, 04:16 AM
Neox - this was modelled in ZBrush then exported to Maya.

Laa-Yosh - thanks for the tip.
I agree the poly count is high - it's over 100,000, but it's not meant for articulation.

Thanks for posting the link to the subdivision web site - it's helpful having resources like that around.

Could anyone recommend a method of converting a high polycount object like this into a lower detailed version.

I know I could use Maya's Reduce command, but that converts everything the triangles. Utlimately, we all want quads.

regards,
RibRaT

RichSuchy
05-05-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by RiBRaT
Neox - this was modelled in ZBrush then exported to Maya.

Laa-Yosh - thanks for the tip.
I agree the poly count is high - it's over 100,000, but it's not meant for articulation.

Thanks for posting the link to the subdivision web site - it's helpful having resources like that around.

Could anyone recommend a method of converting a high polycount object like this into a lower detailed version.

I know I could use Maya's Reduce command, but that converts everything the triangles. Utlimately, we all want quads.

regards,
RibRaT

you might convert it to a nurb then copy surface curves and reloft them. THen if you want covert them to sub-d or poly and edit from there.

mushroomgod
05-05-2003, 06:10 PM
wow...thanks all for such a great thread...iv been reading this thread from the start and have found it realy realy usfull with what iv been working on....super special thanks to Lunatique :applause:

heres a few screen shots of the model im working on (very part time) ....its not that great im afraid and im nowhere near finished, im still trying to get all the features looking right but hopfully it will look cool when shes finished (does she look like a she?), let me know what you think?

http://www.mushroomgod.com/images/headtests.jpg



also....the mesh is based on phreaknasty mesh, i know this thread has been linked to before but for those who missed it on the first page here it is again (its very cool :cool: )

groovy mesh thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26813&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

thanks again guy, a realy cool thread:wavey:

RichSuchy
05-05-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by mushroomgod
heres a few screen shots of the model im working on (very part time) ....its not that great im afraid and im nowhere near finished, im still trying to get all the features looking right but hopfully it will look cool when shes finished (does she look like a she?), let me know what you think?

http://www.mushroomgod.com/images/headtests.jpg



thanks again guy, a realy cool thread:wavey:

Very Nice Mesh!

Lunatique
05-05-2003, 07:03 PM
I'm glad that this thread has helped so many others, as it has helped me. :) Sharing and helping each other is the greatest thing about forums--other than the cool news and discussions. :D

I'm going to try and post some body topology stuff later, but I don't think I've gotten it to where I want it yet. It would be awesome if people started posting more body topology stuff like hands, feet, elbows, armpits, necks, knees..etc. I've seen some very creative ways people designed topology for animation, and it would be awesome to share some thoughts and discuss these things.

Here's the current face topology I'm using:

http://www.enchanted.prohosting.com/3d/topology_research/topology-5_2003.jpg

FallenSwordsman
05-06-2003, 11:14 AM
Yep - certainly expanding this to body topology as well sounds an excellent idea. Even though its off the topic a bit, I think it may well be worth also adding perhaps a new thread on human proportions as its one thing I see people having a lot of difficulty with in the WIP section. Hmm - wonder if its worth taking the information here and attempting to create a "generic" modelling tutorial on the human head?

ivo D
05-06-2003, 03:33 PM
yea body topology..that would be nice..

maybe its kindah weird but my major problem is with the neck..
lol..in some way it a darn pain in the ass for mee:rolleyes: :eek:

Neox
05-06-2003, 03:43 PM
the neck :surprised
ever modelled hands or feet?

ivo D
05-07-2003, 06:27 PM
yea,lol

well i sometimes have the problem..when i make a head.. i dont do the neck.. that is what i do at the end.. but than i get stck caus the neck wont look .. as how i want it to be..

hands i dont have problems with, how more hours i spend on them.. how better they look.. ..feet i find a little difficult to do :(

Neox
05-07-2003, 06:39 PM
ehehe this can't happen to me... i'm always starting with a box+meshsmooth (1 iteration) and the extrude the neck... all the other details later, i had the same problem too so i changed my method and model the rough neckshape at first

ivo D
05-08-2003, 06:26 PM
good idear:P ....well im going to modell myself now.. this will be funn:-)

maybe i should put my ref pics of myself on the web.. and have a challenge..who makes the best resemblens:P lol herhehhe :buttrock: :bounce:

Neox
05-08-2003, 06:47 PM
i'd try it, but i'm currently very busy because of the e3 and then i'm travelling through the us for a month ;)

ivo D
05-08-2003, 07:11 PM
well neox.. have a great time there!.. e3 damn.. have to go to that some day.. im just a 3d noob.. still..doing it for more than a year now ..but still :P.. hehe

well..i got my topology right now..so ill keep you all informed.. of my own face modell on this forum..if that is allright.. its topology.. so.. ?

RiBRaT
05-15-2003, 06:41 AM
Hi all,

Here's some more recent work on typology.

Can I please get some feedback from you wonderful peoples.

Hopefully I progressed from my last post on page 12 of this thread.

This bug head is made from all quadrilangles. No tri's whatsoever.

Low Res (http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/lowhead.jpg)

Medium Res (http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/mediumres.jpg)


High Res (http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/highres.jpg)

regards,
RibRaT

walee
05-15-2003, 06:24 PM
wow that's an excellent thread and I thought I should participate and post my work in progress. One of the hardest thing to model in my opinion is to reproduce correctly an existing person based on some reference pictures of that person. But I guess practicing over and over again will get you to improve your modeling skills.

HEAD Work In Progress HIREZ version (http://www.maya-xtools.com/walee/WALEE_MISTERYGIRL_WIP_wireframeHI.1000_453.jpg)


HEAD Work In Progress LOREZ version (http://www.maya-xtools.com/walee/WALEE_MISTERYGIRL_WIP_wireframeLO.1000_453.jpg)

ivo D
05-15-2003, 06:54 PM
i am modelling myself:)

i guess that is the most difficult thing.. caus its with ref.. of a human someone duh:P

but what makes it extra hard is.. that its you.. and you are way much more criticall than.. and well you know yourself.. so you have a higher goal.. and more need for perfection.. pff im.. really having a hard time hehe.. you modell look fine do:)..

npearson
05-17-2003, 10:08 PM
You're meshes look incredible!

I was wondering is you could show a few shots of the topology you created at a more primitive level for us newbies?

Laa-Yosh put an nice example together before -- thanks btw! Only problem was that I got lost when in came to the 6th head where all the detail came into play.

I'm also a bit confused about the nostril. I understand the basic shape but am not clear is there is a conventional number of sides that all you guys use for it or if I have to figure it out each time?

Nathan

bunk
05-23-2003, 03:37 AM
You're meshes look incredible!
Thanks and sorry for the late reply.

I was wondering is you could show a few shots of the topology you created at a more primitive level for us newbies?
I made some screenshots of how the base mesh is set up. Hope it's of some use. Had no time to do an ear. Maybe an other time.

eye/nose/mouth (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/eye_nose_mouth.jpg)
assembling the face (http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/face.jpg)

Cheers,

bunk

npearson
05-23-2003, 09:56 AM
Oh wow! This totaly helps -- thank you!

I didn't realize you patch model.. I guess it makes no difference.

I'll post what I get over memorial day. 3 days to finally sit down and practice.

Nathan

siquier
05-30-2003, 10:53 AM
This trhead was very useful for the "Portrait of Merce" Modelling. thank you lunatique and also to the other artists:
http://www.juansiquier.com/in_progress/merce_wires.jpg
Excuse my english

ivo D
05-30-2003, 11:14 AM
i am greatfull to.. so now caus of all this and the topology thread i could make my own head :D

i know its a little offtopic.. but.. its sub div:D..

maybe come in handy.. i know i look at a lot of whires.. so here is mine.. al 4 sided polyss

http://www.threedy.com/showthread.php?threadid=6918&pagenumber=2

ThirdEye
05-30-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by ivo D
i am greatfull to.. so now caus of all this and the topology thread i could make my own head :D

i know its a little offtopic.. but.. its sub div:D..

maybe come in handy.. i know i look at a lot of whires.. so here is mine.. al 4 sided polyss

http://www.threedy.com/showthread.php?threadid=6918&pagenumber=2

To be sincere it seems almost identical to phreaknasty's, did you follow his mesh?

ivo D
05-30-2003, 10:30 PM
i followed a lot.. i dont know.. didnt just follor one..just started modelling with the idear.. i didnt need to use to much polys.. just see how it goes.. and looked at soem bits and peaces od different whires..what was the logical way to connect all of it.. and make it to a logical flowing mesh..

i gues.. this is the easyest way.., but well all the eye.. and mouth setups are the same everywher.. but no i didnt use one whire.. i have seen to many..

just did what i think was logical..

Keith Young
05-31-2003, 12:21 AM
What a great thread! Thanks to everyone who contributed so far - it's helped me a ton in creating my first head model. I used bits and pieces of ideas found here along with a few (nose) polys snatched from one of Neox's free models at 3D Festival to create this:

http://webpages.charter.net/spanki/images/fh_wip4.jpg

...it still needs some work (outside corner of eyelids and eyelids in general are giving me fits, etc). Would anyone be interested in downloading this mesh? (assuming Neox gives me clearance on the nose polys).

LoTekK
06-03-2003, 07:28 PM
Hi everyone. This is my first post on CGTalk, though I've been lurking for a couple weeks now. :p Anyways, I've been following this thread and the SubD thread quite closely and with great fascination, as I'm rather new to 3D modelling in general. After much experimentation, I've decided that I positively love the polytools that Wings3D offers over any other package (and that includes Max and Maya).

This is a head model I've been working on for the past couple days to get a feel of the proper topology. This is probably the third model I've worked on over the last two weeks, the first being an utter failure, and the second being only marginally successful. :p So far I'm happy with where I've gotten, though there's still more work to be done, (namely the lack of an ear :p). Also, while there are a couple tri's and 5-gons here and there, I'll be damned if it doesn't animate nicely. :)

Bear in mind that the topology work here has been largely inspired by Luna's efforts, but mixed in with Bay Raitt and co's methodologies. It also came about as a result of hours upon hours of staring at my wildly contorting face in the mirror. :D

Control Cage:
http://www.lotekk.com/lotekk-head-low.jpg

Level 1:
http://www.lotekk.com/lotekk-head-high.jpg

And just for kicks, here's an overweight man's head (using exactly the same mesh as above, after magnet-moving a bunch of vertices around).

Control Cage:
http://www.lotekk.com/lotekk-head-fat-low.jpg

Level 1:
http://www.lotekk.com/lotekk-head-fat-high.jpg

Any crits are entirely welcome, of course. :)


Odd... My [img]'d tags are showing up as [url] links. :curious:

Lunatique
06-04-2003, 04:54 AM
LoTekK-- Your links appear to be dead. Can anyone else see his links?

lricho
06-04-2003, 05:23 AM
yep

LoTekK
06-04-2003, 05:40 AM
They seem to be showing up okay at the moment. Maybe my hosting provider was acting wonky when you tried the links. I still don't understand why they're not showing up as direct image links, though, seeing as I used the [img] tags. :curious:

chudofsinister
06-04-2003, 06:09 AM
I see um fine and dandy at present.

Peter Reynolds
06-04-2003, 06:26 AM
Nice work LoTekk.

Definitely going in the right direction. Some of you loops could be handled a bit differently, and I would be inclined to keep pushing as some of those tris and ngons don't need to be there.

But you know what you're doing.

So well done. Keep pushing it.

Oh, and a little trick to see how you could refine your mesh is to look at it upside down for a while. Fresh perspective never hurts.

Lunatique
06-04-2003, 06:35 AM
must be a China issue then. . .. Damn.

LoTekK
06-04-2003, 07:15 AM
Oh, and a little trick to see how you could refine your mesh is to look at it upside down for a while. Fresh perspective never hurts.
Ha. I haven't used that trick in so long I'd actually forgotten about it (used it often for my 2d stuff). :p Thanks for refreshing my memory on that. :)

I'll definitely go ahead and continue refining the mesh (I've already added some wrinkle lines that are present in pretty much everyone, like the outer corners of the eyes), and I'll see what I can do about the edgeloops. Actually, do you think you could point out some of the loops that might need redirection or whatnot? Still new to this, and I've been trying to figure out which loops work and which ones don't. I've actually found the jaw area a bit of an issue (where the jaw meets the ear meets the neck), as I can't figure out a clean way to get those loops. As you can see in the shots, I've ended up with both a 5-gon and a 5-sided vert, and so far no amount of studying and tweaking has given me any insight as to how to redirect my edgeloops, so any help would be very much appreciated. :)

Thanks for the comments, and Luna, sucks about the whole China server-blocking thing (read about you not being able to access the Human Head site. Travesty! :thumbsdow )

muckywetnoodle
06-06-2003, 11:18 AM
Here's a couple noggins if it helps...
http://www.ejm.cc/images/cgtalk/general/cyborg_head_wire.jpg http://www.ejm.cc/images/cgtalk/general/character_head.jpg
They're both different as far as topology but work fine for building face targets. I'm working on the high frequency versions as well in z-brush but these give me good control for animating.

As far as your head goes, I'd fix up the problems you have going before adding anything else. I find it easier to deal with the jaw and cheek edge termination if I have a space reserved for the ears. I usually leave a hole there and connect edges to it so they are in place when it comes time to make the ears. Right now, the top of the skull is too large and oddly shaped and the lips are kind of fish-like as well. ;) Something else I'd suggest avoiding are poles like you have on the nose. A 6 edge pole on the end of the nose isn't going to give you very good smoothing for example so you might want to rework that. Anyhow, keep it up!

LoTekK
06-06-2003, 05:52 PM
I find it easier to deal with the jaw and cheek edge termination if I have a space reserved for the ears.
Thanks for that tip, I'll have to try that. :)

the top of the skull is too large and oddly shaped and the lips are kind of fish-like as well.
Well, I have big lips, so I guess I went a little overboard with the model in that respect. :p As for the top of the skull, I was trying to figure out what was wrong with it, and it didn't occur to me that it was simply too big. :p I'll look into fixing that.

A 6 edge pole on the end of the nose isn't going to give you very good smoothing for example so you might want to rework that.
Dear god, I hadn't even noticed that! :surprised I think it happened after I reworked some of the edge flow at some point during the modelling, since I'm pretty sure it wasn't there earlier in the modelling process. Thanks for pointing that one out. :)

Oh, nice lines on your meshes, by the way. :thumbsup:

Poopinmymouth
06-07-2003, 05:20 AM
havent read the whole thread, but I wanted to add some input about reusing a face mesh.

Has anyone seen the program 3dmenow? This is the best proof I can offer that really a new mesh should be made each time. you alter splines over a front and side view of a persons face, and it tweaks a generic mesh to fit those splines. It also projection maps your two photos onto the face. it is great for popping out a close fascimile in like 10 minutes, but I have tried it on friends faces who I know very well, and it never quite turns out like them. However, when I go in and model their face by hand, from scratch. I am able to obtain much MUCH better results.

Plus you get the experience of trying flow after flow of edge loops and topology by rebuilding the face. I have not made a ton of models, but so far I have never reused a face/head mesh, and I feel like I am a better artist because of it. I get endless practice figure out better ways to create the mesh, as well as I get to custom place the topology to fit the persons face exactly where it should go.

In the end, I think you should use whatever is most confortable for you, but my humble (yet arrogant) opinion is that it is best to rebuild each time.

Keith Young
06-07-2003, 06:22 AM
Poop - If the theme/title of this thread was 'head mesh detailing', then I'd probably agree with you (and I do agree that the practice is good). But the topic/question being posed here is whether you can create a 'base mesh' with decent (and for the most part universal) topology to be re-used as a starting point for future heads.

Obviously each face/head will need further detailing (added edge loops/verts/facets) and shaping, but I think that it's evident from this thread that you can save yourself some grunt-work if you develop a good base mesh.

At least that's my opiion - I could be right ;).

chudofsinister
06-07-2003, 08:51 PM
Actually thats a great idea for a new thread, Head Detailing. Taking this thread one step further. How and where do you add the detail. I myself would like to know how people keep from getting lost in areas around the eyes when the loops are so close together and how people keep their polygons ,coplanner not sure if this is the right term but keeping everything lined up and organized on a complex mesh.

npearson
06-07-2003, 10:15 PM
Agreed -- focusing on that type of information would be very helpful for us beginners.

fasteez
06-14-2003, 10:49 PM
To model a character for animation , we should consider the musculature and skeleton behind the skin ^^;;;
I really liked the comparison of faces from mr stahlberg.
For the head modeling we should model using facial muscles and wrinkles as guides (using pics as references), this way its easier to get facial expression and skin wrinkles^^.

this is a hand test to get principle lines of the human face :

topologie ą la main (http://membres.lycos.fr/newddrteam/topologie_main.gif)

one piece of advice, the alex alvarez course about nurbs organic modeling is a GREAT way to improve skillz about topology and face modeling

Massoud
06-24-2003, 05:36 PM
very nice all guys :applause: :applause: :applause:

visgoth
07-08-2003, 05:45 AM
Here's the base topology I've been using for the last few heads I started, including this one (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=667703#post667703)

http://members.rogers.com/rtrska/misc/images/basehead_3view.jpg


It's got a couple of issues regarding the flow around the jaw / neck area, but i end up deleting the existing neck and rebuild (gotta make the fixes in a newer version :P)

I'll post the wires of a couple of other heads I've built if anyone's interested, they used a bit of a different flow around the mouth.

magic6435
07-13-2003, 04:33 PM
your wife is hot :applause:

bono3d
07-13-2003, 04:56 PM
Hi guys,
an artist called Daniel3D make a table showing edge loops and your importance in a model. Take a look in brazilian 3DOnline Forum:

EDGE LOOP TABLE by Daniel3D (http://www.3donline.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1446)

Hope it's usefull...

Kel Solaar
07-20-2003, 09:21 PM
This thread is very great, very instructing, I was searching if someone knows what topology is Steven Giesler using for his head, especially the cheeks area :)

ivo D
07-20-2003, 10:29 PM
could someone make this for 3ds max.. such a scripts..

look here...


http://stabacco.deathfall.com/tut2.htm#MODELING_STEPS_CYCLE

RichSuchy
07-20-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Kel Solaar
This thread is very great, very instructing, I was searching if someone knows what topology is Steven Giesler using for his head, especially the cheeks area :)

Deleted for being incorrect, My bad. :)

Laa-Yosh
07-21-2003, 01:29 AM
The following are seriously IMHO and are not meant to offend anyone, especially not the ex-Square guys.

I don't think that it is a good idea to copy the face topology of the Final Fantasy / Osiris characters. There are several reasons for that.

First, the meshes are built with displacement mapping in mind. Small features like wrinkles, skin folds and such are not incorporated into the cage.
What's more, the animation of such features are also created with more displacement maps. When you raise the eyebrow of a character, it toggles a texture to displace the wrinkles on the brow.
Now this is OK as far as you have PRMan to do the displacement for you and you have to render to film res. But for the average user, displacing a character is not really affordable.

Also, I personally think that using animated displacements combined with blendshapes for a face results in unrealistic motion. There is no simple feedback for the artist creating the facial shapes/maps, and the same goes for the animator.

And keep in mind that Square's technology was developed during the late '90s; a lot of research was not yet available at that time. They've also planed to render the movie in Maya (!!)* which at that time was making a mess of the UV mapping when smoothing polygons. Actually, their whole face pipeline looks like a workaround for this - avoiding narrow and wide polygons near each other, which is the perfect way to get UV stretching in Maya 1 to 4.5... So, there's a good possibility that even the Square guys would do things differently today.

And lastly, I don't believe in the 'generic head mesh for all faces' approach. Proportions, amount of muscle, fat, nature of skin and age are just a few factors that should be driving the topology of a mesh, instead of trying to force them into an existing layout.
[I know that Steven Stahlberg has made several female faces from the same 0-level hierarchical cage, but first, he doesn't animate much, second, most of his girls are idealised beauties (but he certainly gets very nice results). And also, hierarchical subdivs and general subdivs are very different to work with.]

So, I suggest looking at the already impressive selection of meshes in this thread - you should fare better with these. But if you insist, check www.digitalsculptor.net for a few head wireframes (although they're quite lowres: one (http://www.digitalsculptor.net/mx/Thd_iso_wireframe_medium.jpg), two (http://www.digitalsculptor.net/mx/Jue_iso_wireframe_medium.jpg)).


* See Square's Siggraph presentation about this. According to the speaker, they've converted to PRMan during production, and they've had most of their models and shaders completed at that time. Also, the first 4-5 shots of the movie, including one with Aki, have been rendered in Maya.

Peter Reynolds
07-21-2003, 05:01 AM
You make some interesting points Laa-Yosh. Particularly in regard to details such as wrinkles, etc by using mesh VS displacement.

Of course, the proportions from one face to the next change. This is why we push an pull verts to get the proportions right. But I don't believe previous posts were suggesting that its a good idea to take facial features and "force them into an existing layout".

I think the opposite is what some people are suggesting: that you take a simple generic topology and mold it to suit the new characters proportions. This is WAY before you even think of details for wrinkles, etc.

And the reason this has been suggested, is that the push and pull and flow of the facial muscles works the same for most humanoid faces. Which means your edgeloops tend to flow the same from face to face.

Muscles such as the orbicularis oris or the zygomatic major are what inform the topology of a mesh. And if they didn't work the same from person to person, what use would Faigin's Facial Expression book be to any of us?

So starting with a base mesh with simple edgeloops is still a valid time saver, particularly if you have a lot of human or humaoid faces to get through.

The facial muscles for Buzz Lightyear and Gollum are not radically different.

So if some people like to start with a generic topology, I say, go for it.


Having said all that, I usually like to start with a fresh piece of digital clay for each model. The flow of human facial muscles is burn't into my minds eye, and informs how I lay out edge loops.

Kel Solaar
07-21-2003, 09:17 AM
Ok thanks for the replies, this is very interesting, i don't know that square guys were using massive displacement.

j3st3r
07-21-2003, 10:58 AM
Using a generic structure for guidelines is great idea. But for using as a basic form is not. We all have almost the same internal facial structure, but that`s behind the skin. Look at Lance Henriksen...He has got two almost vertical wrinkles...no generic mesh would allow that...and there are folks with extreme SKIN folds...

As Mario Ucci (Loganarts) told: bone loops, fat loops, detail loops...So basic mesh is cool for guidelines...

Keith Young
07-21-2003, 12:34 PM
Just getting a good general human head shape (eyes in the right place, mouth in the right place, etc) can take a while (depending on your skill, of course), so even if you end up redoing all of the topology, having a decent head-shaped base wire-cage to work off of can save you a lot of time.

Peter Reynolds
07-21-2003, 01:04 PM
j3st3r, Loganarts is spot on with bone loops, fat loops, detail loops.

I also agree with Bay Raitt's idea to approach 3d sculpting as you would traditional sculpting, ie. going for basic mass, volume and proportions before moving in for details.

There's one thing you said, that I don't really understand what you mean?

"no generic mesh would allow that"


I could easily take a generic mesh and turn it into the face of a 3 month old baby OR the face of Lance Henriksen. Both models would end up with vastly different proportions, skin folds, wrinkles, etc.

I don't understand how a generic mesh could stop me from doing this?

Perhaps we picture different things when we use the term "generic"?

colmite
07-24-2003, 05:47 PM
Man great thread I have learned so much here and it has improved my modeling of heads so much! Thanks for starting this thread!

I hope this is not off topic since thsi relates to creating a great / universal topology for human head, but what about a good topology for the whole body? My problem is I feel I can modle out a decent body, but when comming to muscle structure I never quite get it right and start thinking it could be in my topology that I started in the beginning.

Sorry if this is off topic, but this has been a huge help to me (and am sure many others) to improve in modeling heads.

Electrofirma
07-31-2003, 06:09 AM
need some help here... crits, comments etcetera...

I'm currently beating myself up trying to get proportions correct, and I'm curious if I've added too much detail to be a workable control mesh.

Also, is the pole above the lip(red spot) going to create problems later.

Who can offer up a good text explaining the relative importances of edgeloops and poles?

http://www.electrofirma.com/image_host/cgtalk/topology/topo_wire1.jpg

Thanx,

EFirma

EDIT: If it is important to anyone, this mesh started from Wiro's Head Tutorial (http://www.secondreality.ch/tutorials/modelling/head.html) but it kinda took it's own direction(or lack of direction, you decide :)).

ivo D
07-31-2003, 09:44 AM
well one problem is that you, have to many edges flow from nose to eye.. now that gow all the way from the bottom of the nose to the sides pof the eye,it would be better if there where just 3 going to the eye so minus 2 or 3 .. depends on where you strart counting.. but well.. there has to be some open space on the cheeck and cheekbone area, zo a line or two can go over there from the side of the nose wing curling to the ear, why.. wel when you pull up your nose.. lite trying to do immitate a pig, whole you cheeck like gets squished up.. thataint really possible in the right way in your model now, the point art the mouth wont be a problem i think.. to see how your model needs to look.. see some whires here..


if youcant get all the scalling right.. and you are a max user.. but i doubt it.... you can scale up/down parts with fdd box modifier..or just select polys


make the head less wide a litle.. little more chin.. and the eyes a little closer together


good luck.. your getting there.. looks pretty neat allreay...

Bob27
08-03-2003, 12:15 AM
i learned manythings from this thread following some links.
Wish I could offer sth to it.

PiledotNET
08-05-2003, 08:27 PM
Hi guys!

I did read all this thread and it has "gold information" ;)


I've got a lot of tricks here and in other posts so I've dicided to model a human head just with my Topology knowlege (is this the word?)

Here it is:

Shaded Perspective:
http://www.redpixel.hpg.com.br/semref001.jpg

Shaded Front:
http://www.redpixel.hpg.com.br/semref002.jpg

And Wires for someone who is interest in the model Edge Loops.
http://www.redpixel.hpg.com.br/semref003.jpg
http://www.redpixel.hpg.com.br/semref004.jpg
http://www.redpixel.hpg.com.br/semref005.jpg

What can you say about the TOPOLOGY of this mode? :)

evan
08-26-2003, 09:04 AM
Hi everyone. Fantastic thread, Ive learnt a heap. Thanks to everyone.
here's a model that I did a month back just to play around with edge loops, etc in Wings3D. I'd be very interested to hear any comments on his mesh topology and how I could improve him.

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~iamevan/forums/gollum_wire02.jpg

eYadNesS
09-02-2003, 01:21 AM
This is my method in topology (eye, mouth and nose), I have made it for August-September 2003 Official Classic Challenge...

This is my topology:
http://images.deviantart.com/i/b/5/d/3d_step10.jpg

Before I forget this is a beta version of the topology, I will make some updates later :)

And this is my challenge thread :) :
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81351

If you have any comments, please to post it :)

eYadNesS
09-04-2003, 03:29 AM
This is update of my method in topology... :)

http://images.deviantart.com/i/2003/36/3/7/3d_step14.jpg

eYadNesS
09-16-2003, 01:45 AM
Update for the links above:

http://www5.domaindlx.com/eyadness/020_3d_step14.jpg

http://www5.domaindlx.com/eyadness/016_3d_step10.jpg

Gilgamesh
10-06-2003, 09:41 PM
Here's the face that I'm working on. I've paid a lot of attention to topology, and it seems alright, but I guess I wont know until I start animating.
http://www.loomisanimation.com/WIP/facewire01.jpg

j3st3r
10-07-2003, 11:13 AM
Let me add mine:

I`m pretty sure, that there is no generous topology, but there are some similarities between topologys.

Here is one:

http://w3.enternet.hu/matefy/AsianFemale.jpg

and the other:

http://w3.enternet.hu/matefy/SuperHeroHead.jpg

lerpiedood
10-13-2003, 04:15 AM
Here is my contribution, old work but still good, only area I'm not to happy with is the ear area.

http://www.qone12.com/~lerpiedood/monicaWire03.jpg

Count0
10-20-2003, 10:43 AM
Nice thread. I see that it's mostly about facial mesh topology, though I have some problems with making a simple hand, I just can't get the area where the fingers connect to the hand smooth enough. I've tried lots of different ways of edgeloop positions, but can't get it right. I'm trying to make simple cartoon hand, and in some ways I think it's harder than making a realistic one, as I don't want all the detail as wrinkles to keep it simple. If anyone has some good wireframe picture of either realistic or cartoon hands that would be of great help!

Neox
10-20-2003, 10:48 AM
@gilgamesh did you use syomkas female as reference? looks pretty similar to what i remember on his model :)

Quizboy
10-20-2003, 10:31 PM
no, gilgamesh is not using Soymka. at least not 100%. I'm working with Soymka's topology now so I've got a pretty good eye for it. Soymka's got a different forehead structure and also in the bridge of the nose.

Also beside the eye he's got a really good solution for eye wrinkles - which is the reason i chose his - which i don't see here. But that could be b/c gilgamesh is making a child...not sure, but that's quite a few differences not necessarily any of them for the worse. it looks like a good "gilga"mesh to my untrained eyes.

icebird
10-26-2003, 10:16 AM
There is a long time to see you , Rob . I ' m icebird , in the 3D PARTY at Fuzhou . Do you remenber me ? I ' m in Baishan City in the foot of Changbai Mountion now . How dose your work doing ? I hope it is very vell .

Now is 18:14 , I have to offline and go home .
Best wishes to you and your wife .
Good night .

Pillboxx
10-29-2003, 08:03 AM
Hi, I am new to 3d about 6 weeks now and I learned a lot about modeling heads and wires from this site so I would like to give a little back. So here is a wire from my project I am currently working on. Sorry no ears yet.

http://homepage.mac.com/pillboxx/.Pictures/Wires/Image34.jpeg

doccas
11-08-2003, 09:50 PM
Hi all,

I am currently writing a book on modeling the human form in 3d. I am including a section on body topology and whilst I have my own ideas on the subject I am keen to show other peoples thinking in this area.

I am looking for any images showing head and body topology to be included as additional examples within the book - full credit to the artist will be given.

If anyone here wishes to have their ideas published graphically then drop me a line at this mail address:

doc@t3df.com

Thanks in advance

Laa-Yosh
11-08-2003, 10:01 PM
Feel free to use my images:

http://www.metagons.com/images/SI0429.jpg

http://www.metagons.com/images/SI0421.jpg

http://www.metagons.com/images/SI0107.jpg

(contact me via email if you need images without the text overlay)

npearson
11-08-2003, 10:49 PM
Hey Tamas,

Those are great!

Any chance you'll ever be up to doing a good time-lapse video for us newbies.

I would do anything to see how you go about laying out the initial steps of head modelling -- including face topology covering all the trouble spots (i.e. nose and eyes).

Nathan

doccas
11-08-2003, 11:04 PM
Thanks Tamas - I have sent you an email with some more details.

Nice work

cheers

Doc

Laa-Yosh
11-08-2003, 11:12 PM
Nathan - uh, I dunno if I'll ever get to do it. I still have large pauses between modeling sessions, depending on project demands, so I have to get back to gears every time. This means that I do a fair amount of unnecessary work and rebuilding - not good for learning either.

However I made some progression screenshots from the first version of the Blake character (he got redesigned during production, fun fun fun ;), you can see it here:

http://www.3dluvr.com/ly/images/blake_progress.jpg

It has a fair share of problems though - I've tried to 'quadrify' the mesh after each step, and it messed up the edgeloops. The better approach is to keep working with loops - ie. 4-sided vertices and n-sided faces - as long as possible. Then worry about the quads only in the end :)

ThirdEye
11-30-2003, 03:53 PM
Nice pics Tamas, love the way your loops work :)

Laa-Yosh
11-30-2003, 05:03 PM
Heh, thanks - although (I hope) I could be able to do better today, as I think I've learnt a few things in the past year. I can also recommend to check out the Gollum timelapse on the TTT extended DVD - it's nice to see how Bay defines the planes of the face in the first few operations.

Lunatique
12-01-2003, 02:53 AM
How about posting more body topology? I think we have plenty of great head topology stuff already in this thread, but not many body topology at all! I'm working on mine right now, and I'll post it when I'm done.