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Vizfizz
07-21-2006, 07:48 PM
Hello everyone...

Things keep moving along for us here at Paralumino and with the advent of Superlines, we thought it would be nice to provide new tools to take advantage of that technology. If you are not aware of what Superlines is...Superlines is a free shader which allows EI to render "Shade Lines" or "false geometry" based off of line segments imported into EI, generated polylines constructed with products like Trestle or any piece of geometry that you wish to render in wireframe mode. The shader reacts off the wireframe line width value and tells camera to render cylinders instead. The result is a better looking wireframe mesh that possess shading, falloff, and material capabilities.

Braider is the next step of evolution for this technology. Braider analyzes the geometry of the model parented to the plugin, and generates a series of line segments that can be transformed by the Superlines shader. Several of you are familiar with the wireframe mesh art of Meats Meier. Now that capability is becoming available for Electric Image. Imagine having the ability to take any geometry and construct wirelines along the surface of the model. Attempting such a thing manually would be exceedingly difficult and time consuming. Braider does the work for you..

We've already completed a fairly extensive Alpha test stage so Braider is pretty far along, but we feel its always important to include the community, so we are initiating a 1 week public beta phase for comments and suggestions to help us improve our product. Beta testers have already been assigned and they are free to post their results to this thread.

Here's an example of Braider's functionality:

http://www.paralumino.com/images/Braider1.jpg

PaulS2
07-21-2006, 08:54 PM
You sure you don't have a slot for just one more guy to play with/ B-test Braider:-)??

Paul S.

bronco
07-21-2006, 11:27 PM
first quick test (actually a remake, more or less):

http://www.orangefx.de/braider/braider_rmake.jpg

nice and quite easy to use - i just needed a few minutes wrap my brain around this.
this mesh is not really fine tuned right now, i can see a few spots where it breaks, but i have to say, very nice plugin!
i don't think i have already understood what else is possible with this technology.

Hiddenman.fr
07-22-2006, 10:48 AM
This is an image I have made some time ago. A good client for this new plug. And the result would have been certainly much more cute. But Igors don't like abstract ;)

bronco
07-22-2006, 12:05 PM
well, Stephane, for me this plugin is mostly for abstract use.
there are only so many Meats Meier knock-offs you can do before it gets boring. :)
i am sure the igors understand the need (and market) for abstract animation, even if they prefer photo-real stuff.
having said that, here is a little fly-by of the wire-girl:

WIRE GIRL MOVIE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/braider_lady_mp4.mov)


i know this will not make it to the release date, but i have a little wishlist for v2 :)

- a way to limit the used polygons (e.g. like in wiremaker -> "id:*7")
- animateable wire coverage with seperate controls for U and V and three modes: sequence, negative sequence and complete

i am sure there is more to come as i dig deeper into this plugin.

halfworld
07-22-2006, 02:35 PM
- animateable wire coverage with seperate controls for U and V and three modes: sequence, negative sequence and complete

That was the first question Rob asked me when I showed him the plug-in.

I have some interesting animation ideas for this plug, let me flesh them out...
Ian

Also, very cool movie Uwe ;)

Vizfizz
07-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Since the plugin generates wires based off the model's topology, having a way to decrease the poly lines without having the use a lower resolution base model would be a very good thing.

Vizfizz
07-22-2006, 03:12 PM
This is an image I have made some time ago. A good client for this new plug. And the result would have been certainly much more cute. But Igors don't like abstract ;)

The Igors may prefer realism, but the fact that they have come up with this plugin speaks to their versatility and their willingness to "hear" what users are looking for. Braider is capable of being used in an abstract way and it can be used in a realistic way. Let's try to list some possibilities for the utilization of this tool.

1. Straw or wicker looking objects
2. Intertwined rope. Dont forget to combine the tool with standard deformation tools
3. Vegetation
4. Motion Graphics Imagery (Huge possibilities here)
5. Inserting subtle detail into realistic objects, or more detail without the cost of geometry
6. Cages or realistic objects that are dependant on a mesh like structure
7. Combined with Scrim to create real geometry

Plus we have other tools still in the pipeline...

bronco
07-22-2006, 03:43 PM
speaking of additional plugins:
what i really want to see is a very simple way to generate REAL geometry, something like Superlines++. (for use with raytrace and GI)

hmm, maybe three stages:
- Superlines - free shader just as it is now.
- Superlines+ - simple plugin that turns wires into real cylinders (only cylinders, just one radius control)
- Superlines++ - sweeps trestle cross-sections along wires (one or two for endpoints)

just an idea...

Vizfizz
07-22-2006, 04:09 PM
One of my ideas for Braider was to use it as a foundation for a PaintFX type system within Electric Image.. populating 3D objects and 2D objects along the wires something akin to Maya's PaintFX. But the Igors beat me to the punch and tried. I'm told that isn't quite possible due to conditions between Animator and Camera. If that's the case, perhaps EITG and the Igors can have a little "chat" to work out that out..wouldn't that be cool?

As for Superlines ++ well.. patience is a virtue...who knows what's out there...

Vizfizz
07-22-2006, 04:21 PM
That was the first question Rob asked me when I showed him the plug-in.

I have some interesting animation ideas for this plug, let me flesh them out...
Ian

Also, very cool movie Uwe ;)

Well.. I agree with you that those types of UV animation tools would be cool.. however, don't forget that we're dealing with a piece of base geometry. Anything that modifies that base geometry will affect the wires. So using animated clipping maps could give the appearance of traveling wires.. or perhaps you could combine it with DaVinci's Tool or Tailor Tool.. (haven't tried it yet).

Igors
07-22-2006, 04:54 PM
Hi, UweWIRE GIRL MOVIE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/braider_lady_mp4.mov)

We really want to grab this movie for Braider gallery, but we ask you about 2 things:

1) re-render with higher AA settings

2) compress with Sorenson (or other) to reduce movie's size (not all users have a fast connection to d/load 24M)

If you've any difficulties, please send us the prj or uncompressed movie, we'll take care about all other

bronco
07-22-2006, 04:55 PM
i have to try clip maps, but some effects would be much easier with animation control. like always :)

another thing:

LITTLE TENTACLE MOVIE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/bug_tentacle.mow)

TENTACLE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/TentacleBUG.zip)

the wires jump like crazy. i guess this has something to do with the break values, but i don't see the reason why it acts like that. any ideas?

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Hi, Uweanother thing:

LITTLE TENTACLE MOVIE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/bug_tentacle.mow)

TENTACLE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/TentacleBUG.zip)

the wires jump like crazy. i guess this has something to do with the break values, but i don't see the reason why it acts like that. any ideas?

"If nothing can help, then it's time to read doc".

- Activate "Use UV space to scan Paths" in the plug-ins interface.

- Set ON "Use UV space" for child group (child should have UV coordinates)

- Apply a transparency texture to child group

- please read doc, it saves a lot of your time

bronco
07-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Hi, Uwe

We really want to grab this movie for Braider gallery, but we ask you about 2 things:

1) re-render with higher AA settings

2) compress with Sorenson (or other) to reduce movie's size (not all users have a fast connection to d/load 24M)

If you've any difficulties, please send us the prj or uncompressed movie, we'll take care about all other

ok, i'll do as you wish :)

edit:

- Activate "Use UV space to scan Paths" in the plug-ins interface.

- Set ON "Use UV space" for child group (child should have UV coordinates)

- Apply a transparency texture to child group

- please read doc, it saves a lot of your time
ok, right, i am stupid. but why transparency map? wouldn't any map do? it's not used after all, right?

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:14 PM
Hi, Uwespeaking of additional plugins:
what i really want to see is a very simple way to generate REAL geometry, something like Superlines++. (for use with raytrace and GI)

hmm, maybe three stages:
- Superlines - free shader just as it is now.
- Superlines+ - simple plugin that turns wires into real cylinders (only cylinders, just one radius control)
- Superlines++ - sweeps trestle cross-sections along wires (one or two for endpoints)

just an idea...Uwe, "don't run ahead train with red flag":) Be sure, you and we'll talk about much more "actions along path" than sweeping 1-2 cross-sections only. But, of course, when time comes.

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:21 PM
Hi, Uwebut why transparency map? wouldn't any map do? it's not used after all, right?Camera removes UV coordinates if a group has no map uses them. Thus in Camera the Braider receives a child with deleted UV's. During bitmap shadow pass Camera also ignores diffuse and other textures (except transparency) cause they have no effect for buffer shadows calculation. Summary: you need a transparency texture to "preserve" child's UV space in Camera

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:42 PM
Hi, Uwei know this will not make it to the release date, but i have a little wishlist for v2 :)There is absolute enough time to add more features, but, of course, all depends from how well they are formulated / founded. If a task is fully clear for us, it can be implemented fast and vice versa. Sorry, but up to now your propositions are very blurred for us

- a way to limit the used polygons (e.g. like in wiremaker -> "id:*7")But what from WireMaker set is usable here? Nth-polygon? But Braider uses a sequence of polygons, so "use nth" = no output. Range of polygons? But they can be "scattered" here and there, so result = scattered/cutted. The banal reactive (as the plug-in does) looks definitely better.

- animateable wire coverage with seperate controls for U and V and three modes: sequence, negative sequence and completeWho is "animateable wire coverage"? Why the plug-in should assume a model has regular U/V? What is each proposed mode? Please be more concrete, provide schemes if needed, and, maybe, something interested can be done

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:46 PM
Hi, StephaneThis is an image I have made some time ago. A good client for this new plug. And the result would have been certainly much more cute. But Igors don't like abstract ;)Apparently not. And, Stephane, your hints are too subtle for us :) Is there enthusiasm to re-render this old scene with a new tool and show us the result? Or what? :)

Igors
07-22-2006, 05:54 PM
Hi, IanI have some interesting animation ideas for this plug, let me flesh them out...With Antiqua participation, right? :)

Hiddenman.fr
07-22-2006, 06:11 PM
Yeah Igors I am subtle (Don't forget I'm french). These types of abstracts attrack me for some time now but I've really never succeeded in doing that with a good render in EIAS without visible deforms and troubles like that. I have tested a new way with Trestle which becomes a bug report because the facets weren't well distributed along my cables with UV texturing which caused some map deformations. Brader seems to be the solution. As it produces false geometry are there some limitations with Ram cause even with 2 Go allocated to Camera I am often stopped with PlacerDeposit for that type of things?

Igors
07-22-2006, 06:42 PM
Hi, StephaneYeah Igors I am subtle (Don't forget I'm french). These types of abstracts attrack me for some time now but I've really never succeeded in doing that with a good render in EIAS without visible deforms and troubles like that. I have tested a new way with Trestle which becomes a bug report because the facets weren't well distributed along my cables with UV texturing which caused some map deformations. Brader seems to be the solution. As it produces false geometry are there some limitations with Ram cause even with 2 Go allocated to Camera I am often stopped with PlacerDeposit for that type of things?

We don't give irresponsible promises and we always say directly what a product can and cannot do (the last one is same important). So, if you plan to use Braider+SuperLines combo to create things like ropes, thick tubes etc. (as we remember your prj), so, sorry Stephane, this combo does NOT do this. The creating of real geometry for Braider paths is another story, wait for more news from Paralumino. Up to now that's all we can say about this.

Vizfizz
07-22-2006, 06:54 PM
Stephane....

Perhaps you could try this. You're wanting to create more hair like structures for your project you showed me on the platter. What if you instanced lines on the surface via placer deposit, rather than polygons tubes, and apply Superlines to the line segments. Perhaps using Superlines will help you get past your memory limitations. Worth a shot.

bronco
07-22-2006, 07:25 PM
Summary: you need a transparency texture to "preserve" child's UV space in Camera
ok, now i understand. thanks!

Spaghetti Horror Movie (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/spaghetti_horror_mp4.mov)

But what from WireMaker set is usable here? Nth-polygon? But Braider uses a sequence of polygons, so "use nth" = no output. Range of polygons? But they can be "scattered" here and there, so result = scattered/cutted.
hmm. maybe a hybrid of both. nth-polygon of the sequence braider uses now? same for range of polygons.
as far as i understand it, braider doesn't use the original polygon ordering, right? it generates it's own solution depending on the projection setting. so using this as the base should provide a usable working ground.

Who is "animateable wire coverage"? Why the plug-in should assume a model has regular U/V? What is each proposed mode? Please be more concrete, provide schemes if needed, and, maybe, something interested can be done
i try to put some illustrations together, tomorrow.
U and V are maybe wrong and misleading, but i don't know how discribe it better.
let's try it that way:
in the wire-girl movie stop about in the middle, where you see the chest.
the wires form something like a fishing net.
lets call all wires going from bottom left to upper right U and the rest V, ok? ;)
now, wire coverage means for me that the wires can grow over the original mesh.
complete would make all wires visible from the belly upwards at the same time.
in sequence would make them visible one after the other. negative sequence the same but from the other direction.
ok, i think this is more confusing than before. tommorow i'll make some pictures :)

halfworld
07-22-2006, 08:57 PM
Hello,

Well, I threw together this baby, it's shine-tastic.

Just to lobby the motion designers amongst us > http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/braiderreact1a.mov - 3 megs

Reactive braider.

A torus passes over a plane, the plane has a circular wave deformer animated over it.

Where polygons on the torus and plane are less then 70 scene units away from each other Antiqua gives said polygons a green colour > Braider reads this green colour and ONLY braids where it is present. Very, very cool :)

There is a sphere in the background with animated braider settings applied.

10 min setup. 10 min render. 10 min post.
Ian

Igors
07-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Hi, UweSpaghetti Horror Movie (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/spaghetti_horror_mp4.mov)Aha, yes, usage UV was designed so (UV is a "fixer" as always)

hmm. maybe a hybrid of both. nth-polygon of the sequence braider uses now? same for range of polygons.
as far as i understand it, braider doesn't use the original polygon ordering, right? it generates it's own solution depending on the projection setting. so using this as the base should provide a usable working ground.The basic Braider algorithm is very simple:

- take a polygon
- select a neighbor (adjacent) polygon based on "path" popup choice
- continue chain until "break criteria" says stop or all polygons are processed

Then a produced chain is splined, pushed, modified etc., we hope all these operations are fully intuitive. For "diagonals" modes edges are used instead of polygons. But in any case a neighbor is taken. Create a chain between not neighbors? We see no sense, really. It's hard to define "chain rules" here, practically it's always random

i try to put some illustrations together, tomorrow.
U and V are maybe wrong and misleading, but i don't know how discribe it better.
let's try it that way:
in the wire-girl movie stop about in the middle, where you see the chest.
the wires form something like a fishing net.
lets call all wires going from bottom left to upper right U and the rest V, ok? ;)
now, wire coverage means for me that the wires can grow over the original mesh.
complete would make all wires visible from the belly upwards at the same time.
in sequence would make them visible one after the other. negative sequence the same but from the other direction.
ok, i think this is more confusing than before. tommorow i'll make some pictures :)Hmm.. yes, we've only understood that a beauty of chaos requires very strong organization :) Also please think about following: any plug-in is a "mini-engine" with its input and output. Sometimes (and enough often) it's more productive to rebuild input in order to achieve a wanted output instead of improving engine itself (and make it harder and bigger).

AVTPro
07-23-2006, 12:37 AM
Wow! This is really hot. Looks like Meats Miers work.

bronco
07-23-2006, 12:04 PM
hey igors,

WIRE GIRL PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/wireGirl.zip)

WIRE GIRL BIG MOVIE (http://www.o-fx.de/braider/wireGirl02.mov) - attention this is ca. 80mb!

i have problems getting the movie file size down without losing to much details.
here's the project file and photo-jpg compressed movie, try your best :)

Igors
07-23-2006, 12:17 PM
Hi, Uwehey igors,

WIRE GIRL PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/wireGirl.zip)

WIRE GIRL BIG MOVIE (http://www.o-fx.de/braider/wireGirl02.mov) - attention this is ca. 80mb!

i have problems getting the movie file size down without losing to much details.
here's the project file and photo-jpg compressed movie, try your best :)Thank you, we'll take care about it

bronco
07-23-2006, 12:48 PM
brian, igors,

clip maps don't work for me.
Braider ignores them completly, i guess it's because it is not real geometry.
if the base mesh is cliped, braider ignores that as well.

CLIP MAP PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/clipMap.zip)

i don't know about TailorToll or davinci, but i guess at least with TailorTool it should be same. if i remember correctly it uses some form of clipping technology.

in my eyes this screams for build in animation abilities! ;)

Igors
07-23-2006, 01:39 PM
Hi, Uwebrian, igors,

clip maps don't work for me.
Braider ignores them completly, i guess it's because it is not real geometry.
if the base mesh is cliped, braider ignores that as well.

CLIP MAP PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/clipMap.zip)

i don't know about TailorToll or davinci, but i guess at least with TailorTool it should be same. if i remember correctly it uses some form of clipping technology.

in my eyes this screams for build in animation abilities! ;)Grrr.. old painful problem :sad:
"Use UV space" isn't passed to Camera adequately. Please do following:

- Set "Use UV space" ON for Braider (Group Window)

- Set "Disable UV" for clip map (Texture Window)

Alternate way: prepare "horizontal" map to use it with generated UV's

bronco
07-23-2006, 02:27 PM
ok, i understand.
please make sure to include this information into the docs. it is not very intuitive to have to turn UVs on (and off again somewhere else) even if i don't plan to use them.

Igors
07-23-2006, 02:32 PM
Hi, Uweok, i understand.
please make sure to include this information into the docs. it is not very intuitive to have to turn UVs on (and off again somewhere else) even if i don't plan to use them.Sure, thx for the tip

bronco
07-24-2006, 12:55 PM
little, fast fun:

DESERT MOVIE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/desert_mp4.mov)

Igors
07-24-2006, 01:26 PM
Well, we used Braider for more prosaic things :)

PaulS2
07-24-2006, 02:48 PM
This message may not show right away as it's only mty second one here so probably will be 24 hrs to get validated.

Braider is very cool along with Superlines!

It sure would be nice to have a full raytraced output though....bumps, reflections etc:-)

Any chance of being about to do this??

Here's a link to some outstanding work in Realsoft which has a similar look to Braider and Superlines but takes it a few steps further and raytraces the output. I love this guy's sense of design and competance with his tools:

http://www.bt-3d.de/div/abstract0104/

Good to see the constant development occuring with all of the new pluggins for EI.

Paul

bronco
07-24-2006, 04:19 PM
hi igors,

two little questions:

1. what attributes needs a mesh to produce net-like wires like this (only one braider instance):
http://www.orangefx.de/braider/net.jpg

...instead of normal braider wires (only one direction) like this:
http://www.orangefx.de/braider/noise.jpg


2. in the second image you can see some ugly noise at the edges.

NOISE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/Project_noise.zip)

Igors
07-24-2006, 05:38 PM
ZdorovoBraider is very cool along with Superlines!We would prefer to read "your Braider is a full sh.." but with your renders instead of good words but.. without any images :sad: It sure would be nice to have a full raytraced output though....bumps, reflections etc:-)

Any chance of being about to do this??

Here's a link to some outstanding work in Realsoft which has a similar look to Braider and Superlines but takes it a few steps further and raytraces the output. I love this guy's sense of design and competance with his tools:

http://www.bt-3d.de/div/abstract0104/
Well, need to make a first step before few steps further. And need to think twice (or, better yet, more times) before to plan a monster. The "virtual geometry" (your link) looks really cool, but it would be a hypothetic plugin with high price, long render time, long development time etc. Yes, it's more powerful, but same time it's more complex, more expensive and it requires more, much more from developer and user as well. We can't agree such monster is what EI users need (at least now).

After all only artists make tools creative, right? :)

Vizfizz
07-24-2006, 05:52 PM
I'm sure that Paul will be coming up with some interesting images. The concept art link that Paul posted is very nice, but specialized. Having RT capabilities for Superlines would be nice, but defeats the purpose of that shader.

Superlines is intended for rapid, low cost geometry replacement and augmentation of wireframe renders. Its benefits are speed and simplicity. What we need is the ability to take advantage of Braider's source output (lines) or any path for that matter, and combine it with a user definable profile that will make true geometry rather than a line render. Disadvantages here, of course, are high poly counts and reduction of speed. However, the payoff is actual geometry that can take advantage of all of EIAS' rendering capabilities. The Igors are right.. small steps first.. but who knows where that might lead.

bronco
07-24-2006, 06:05 PM
another question:

how exactly is the UV space laid out for Braider/ Superlines pseudo geometry?
I can only see one very thin line in the texture map window.

wouldn't it be nice if you could choose between, lets say:

1. map all wires/braider
2. map one wire, copy to all the others (for easy texturing of robes or so)

possible?

Igors
07-24-2006, 06:07 PM
Hi, Uwe1. what attributes needs a mesh to produce net-like wires like this (only one braider instance):


...instead of normal braider wires (only one direction) like this:Note that a lot depends from how original polygons are organized/triangulated. Your frau is triangulated "in max style" (a new vertex is at quad center, create triangles). As we remember it's Andersson triangulation but we can mistake. In any case it allows to use "Diagonal" Braider's modes effectively.

If you want a "diagonal net" for a quad mesh, then create 2 Braider instances with "Diagonal 1" and "Diagonal 2" respectively that both uses same meshes. Specify "Offset" (like 0.5 - 1) for first or second instance only. At least it's how it was originally designed :)
2. in the second image you can see some ugly noise at the edges.
NOISE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/Project_noise.zip)As we understood, you want too much from modest lines. They are still lines, not a real geometry. They cannot create so thick tubes as you required :)

bronco
07-24-2006, 06:18 PM
They cannot create so thick tubes as you required :)

hmm, ok. they don't seem so thick to me, but ok.

another problem:

http://www.orangefx.de/braider/tex.jpg

TEXTURE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/tex.zip)

texture mapping when rendered seems to differ from the preview (a lot).

Igors
07-24-2006, 06:30 PM
Hi, Uwehmm, ok. they don't seem so thick to me, but ok.Why "Ok" if it's not ok? :) We just used info you gave. Your second image is really noised, but your "noise" prj is about other thing, right? Please synchronize image/prj, or, in simple words, show us what to kill


another problem:



TEXTURE PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/braider/tex.zip)

texture mapping when rendered seems to differ from the preview (a lot).Where is "Disable UV" on your screenshot? You've not set "Use UV space" in Group Window (Shading Tab)? If so yes, different views are guaranteed in EI and Camera

Igors
07-24-2006, 06:39 PM
Hi, BrianI'm sure that Paul will be coming up with some interesting images. We aren't sure, Brian, absolute not sure. Looks like he switched to trainer's work and expertising of features in different 3d apps. Of course, that's his right, he's already created a lot of nice works.

bronco
07-24-2006, 06:40 PM
Where is "Disable UV" on your screenshot? You've not set "Use UV space" in Group Window (Shading Tab)? If so yes, different views are guaranteed in EI and Camera
so, you HAVE to use UVs, no matter if you need them or not?
old style mapping doesn't work without UVs on (Object info) and off (texture window)?

Why "Ok" if it's not ok? :) We just used info you gave. Your second image is really noised, but your "noise" prj is about other thing, right? Please synchronize image/prj, or, in simple words, show us what to kill

hmm??? i just downloaded the noise project to be shure and yes, it's the same as the noise render. (??????)

Igors
07-24-2006, 07:06 PM
Hi, Uwe another question:

how exactly is the UV space laid out for Braider/ Superlines pseudo geometry?
I can only see one very thin line in the texture map window.

wouldn't it be nice if you could choose between, lets say:

1. map all wires/braider
2. map one wire, copy to all the others (for easy texturing of robes or so)

possible?The Braider generates "output" UVs as:

u (x) - normalized value along current chain. The first point of chain has U = 0 and the last U = 1

v(y) and w(z) = 0 always

As we understand that's "2" in your list. But we've no idea what is "1" :) "map all wires/braider" = inherit original UV's or what? Please be more concrete

Igors
07-24-2006, 07:16 PM
Hi, Uweso, you HAVE to use UVs, no matter if you need them or not?
old style mapping doesn't work without UVs on (Object info) and off (texture window)?Yes, technically it looks like: in Camera a plug-in reads what is enabled for generation: UVs, motion blur, vertices color etc. Unfortunately, in Camera "UV is enabled" even if "Use UV space" is OFF in Group Window. Plug-in can correct output (i.e. say to Camera about no output UVs) but not input.

hmm??? i just downloaded the noise project to be shure and yes, it's the same as the noise render. (??????)No, we see no any noise. But texture "braider_desert.img" is missed. Maybe it's the reason?

bronco
07-24-2006, 08:09 PM
No, we see no any noise. But texture "braider_desert.img" is missed. Maybe it's the reason?

hmm, the texture is just a transparency map on the source mesh (i used just a random map and haven't included it for size reasons). even when removed i get the noise.

As we understand that's "2" in your list. But we've no idea what is "1" :) "map all wires/braider" = inherit original UV's or what? Please be more concrete
yes, either inherit original UVs (if source has any) or lay out all wires (unwrap) into UV space.
(i know, i know :) )

what i meant with option 2 is something like cylinder mapping for these virtual cylinders/wires. so that a rope texture looks right from any direction.
so i guess now we have three options :)

Vizfizz
07-24-2006, 09:44 PM
New Braider samples ala the Igors in the Paralumino Gallery.

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/braider/lotus.jpg

www.paralumino.com

Vizfizz
07-25-2006, 02:13 AM
Some images from Paul S.

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/braider/PaulS1.jpg

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/braider/PaulS2.jpg

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/braider/PaulS3.jpg

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/braider/PaulS4.jpg

www.paralumino.com

bronco
07-25-2006, 11:15 AM
nice Paul! i love the "B". :)

i wanted some animation features, so here we go: ;)

http://www.orangefx.de/braider/ani_illu.jpg

forget the U and V i wrote before. somehow i was confused with the net-like wires of the girl mesh. so, now i understand that wires in one direction are the standart.
constant mode could be faked with clip-maps in most cases, but sequences not (at least if i don't miss something here).
maybe the range value field could even be split up into start and end values? -> short lines flowing over the mesh.

Igors
07-25-2006, 07:48 PM
Hi, BrianSome images from Paul S. "It's not enough to be a good player, need also to play well"

Igors
07-25-2006, 07:58 PM
Hi, Uwe
forget the U and V i wrote before. somehow i was confused with the net-like wires of the girl mesh. so, now i understand that wires in one direction are the standart.
constant mode could be faked with clip-maps in most cases, but sequences not (at least if i don't miss something here).
maybe the range value field could even be split up into start and end values? -> short lines flowing over the mesh.Hmmm... it remembers our old "DisAppear" plug-in. We need 1-2 days to think..

PaulS2
07-25-2006, 08:00 PM
Hey! ...you guys are being way too cryptic and are making me think I've done something wrong.

It's ok to directly say what you want:-)

Igors
07-25-2006, 10:32 PM
Hey! ...you guys are being way too cryptic and are making me think I've done something wrong.

It's ok to directly say what you want:-)Guy, we want only you show us what you really can, not a render something between 2 caps of coffee :)

Reuben5150
07-26-2006, 12:07 AM
I have a few Q's -

How does Braider react to GI ?

And how does Braider react to EI deformations ?

Also did i hear someone mention this plugin has reactive capabilities ?

Sorry if all or any of this has been answered already, i'm just catching up ;)

thanks

Reuben

PaulS2
07-26-2006, 01:22 AM
I wasn't sure what you were talking about so thanks for clarifying:-)

Sorry you didn't like the pictures I did - I've only had the pluggin for about a day and am still learning what the controls do and making a visual record as I experiment with them. They did take longer to do than a couple of cups of coffee though.

I usually need to feel a little more inspired or more comfortable with the tools if I am to spend extended amounts of time working on an image. If this isn't acceptable for the beta I understand and feel free to give me the boot then:-)

By the way, giving someone hell (or criticizing them publically) for not performing to some imagined standard usually doesn't get them too excited about spending extra time on something:-)

Anyway, I understand you would like to see your tool used to it's fullest as I can see you've put in lots of work to develop it - I'll keep trying but you'll have to promise me no more grumpy comments if I don't quite live up to your standards. LOL

Reuben5150
07-26-2006, 01:39 AM
Guy, we want only you show us what you really can, not a render something between 2 caps of coffee :)

Looking for promo images already huh ;)

Got an interface shot ?

R

Vizfizz
07-26-2006, 01:53 AM
Rueben..

Here's a shot of the interface.

Vizfizz
07-26-2006, 02:06 AM
I have a few Q's -

How does Braider react to GI ?

And how does Braider react to EI deformations ?

Also did i hear someone mention this plugin has reactive capabilities ?

Sorry if all or any of this has been answered already, i'm just catching up ;)

thanks

Reuben

Braider doesn't actually create the rendered cylinders you see, that job belongs to Superlines, a shader designed to work with Braider's line output. So without actual geometry, raytracing and GI results are going to be limited. Working on that. Braider analyzes its child's geometry and generates a series of polylines based off the geometry's topology, Superlines provides the cylinders complete with falloff and material properties.

Deformations should work just fine with Braider and yes, Braider possesses reactive capabilities. Check out some of Ian Water's work earlier above.

Reuben5150
07-26-2006, 02:24 AM
Ok thanks,

And superlines doesn't work with wiremaker ?

One thing i like about Fiberforge is it can output lines or polygons, didn't realize Braider was lines only...

R

Vizfizz
07-26-2006, 02:30 AM
Superlines will work with anything that generates lines. Trestle, Wiremaker, Braider, standard polygonal geometry in wireframe mode, dxf polylines, Revolver...etc.

Braider is just a method to generate source lines/curves. These curves can be utilized by any of our geometry engines and we have more tools in the works. :) So stay tuned.

Hiddenman.fr
07-26-2006, 07:03 AM
Igors I know it is totally OffTopic but I have asked a new question in the general thread on how to make a slide effect. If you have some time to answer me if this is possible in the current EIAS raytracing. Thanks.

Igors
07-26-2006, 07:52 AM
I'll keep trying but you'll have to promise me no more grumpy comments if I don't quite live up to your standards. LOLWe promise ;-) And, of course, posted images are professional works. But from Paul Sherstobitoff we can expect more, much more!
BTW: "B" = Bear, right?

Igors
07-26-2006, 08:26 AM
Hi, ReubenHow does Braider react to GI ?Well, Braider is a model plug-in and generally it's not responsible for any render aspect. As Brian said, it is just a method to generate source lines/curves. So, we can answer for "how particles react to GI".

They don't react at all. A ray cannot hit a particle cause it's a pseudo-geometry has no square. Thus particles cannot cast RT/GI shadows. EI automatically removes particles from GI calculation.

Note also that other possible ways instead of SuperLines (like a creation of real or virtual geometry), would formally work with GI and/or radiosity but unacceptable in practice - illumination calculation is very and very slow for such models. This kind of geometry requires a special technique known as "deep shadows". But it's another story.

And how does Braider react to EI deformations ?There are no problems to deform Braider's output, here lines work absolute same as a polygon model. Some problems appear if the plug-in input (child group) is deformed, in this case you need to use UV space to stabilize. See "spaghetti" animation Uwe posted.

Also did i hear someone mention this plugin has reactive capabilities ?Yes, even it's a modest feature. Reactive can be used as a clip map to make holes or/and as an amplifier for output chain of segments.

Igors
07-26-2006, 11:38 AM
Hi, Uwei wanted some animation features, so here we go: ;)

http://www.orangefx.de/braider/ani_illu.jpg

forget the U and V i wrote before. somehow i was confused with the net-like wires of the girl mesh. so, now i understand that wires in one direction are the standart.
constant mode could be faked with clip-maps in most cases, but sequences not (at least if i don't miss something here).
maybe the range value field could even be split up into start and end values? -> short lines flowing over the mesh.We think the right way is to give user a choice how to generate output UVs and let he constructs animations (noticed above and others) as he wants by using clip maps. So, we plan to add "Generate UVs" popup with:

- Inherit UVs (plug-in copies UV's of its child group(s));
- Line U (as it is now, each chain is mapped into 0..1 U-range);
- Long Line U (chains are mapped sequentially, first into 0..1, second into 1..2 etc. U-ranges);
- Lines U/V (same as "Line U" but each chain has individual V);

Also new path modes "vector U" and "vector V" are planned (create chains by using child's UVs)

Also the plug-in should report error if child UVs are requested but not found.

Other/more opinions/considerations?

bronco
07-26-2006, 12:25 PM
- Inherit UVs (plug-in copies UV's of its child group(s));
- Line U (as it is now, each chain is mapped into 0..1 U-range);
- Long Line U (chains are mapped sequentially, first into 0..1, second into 1..2 etc. U-ranges);
- Lines U/V (same as "Line U" but each chain has individual V);

Also new path modes "vector U" and "vector V" are planned (create chains by using child's UVs)

Also the plug-in should report error if child UVs are requested but not found.


as far as i understand it my suggested sequence mode would translate to Long Line U, right? sounds good to me! :)

Igors
07-26-2006, 12:57 PM
Hi, Uweas far as i understand it my suggested sequence mode would translate to Long Line U, right? sounds good to me! :)Yes, but it's more flexible IMO

Igors
07-28-2006, 12:31 PM
Braider beta 2:

- fixed bug occurred if "offset" > 0 is used together with circular (closed) chains;

- added different UV generation modes (to animate lines appearance via clip maps)

shoutzager
07-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Admiring the work done by Paul S. I can see some uses for that pluggin.

On the blue shapes, was it just the Braider settings that were different?

On the Red letter, Did braider come up with any of the pattern on the letter or did it just add a wire to the pattern.

SH

PaulS2
07-28-2006, 08:30 PM
"Admiring the work done by Paul S. I can see some uses for that pluggin.

On the blue shapes, was it just the Braider settings that were different?

On the Red letter, Did braider come up with any of the pattern on the letter or did it just add a wire to the pattern."


Mostly the braider settings were different on the blue but mesh density plays a large role in braider-look density.

On the red 'B' the patteren is all braider - the B is comprised of all quads (though seems they are triangulated but not visable that way to camera or animator) and braider takes that input and with some control settings output the interesting pattern.

Paul

Vizfizz
07-28-2006, 08:41 PM
Braider updates have been seeded to beta testers.

bronco
07-29-2006, 01:07 AM
Hi, UweYes, but it's more flexible IMO
yes,
BUT rendering takes longer.

at the moment i have some problems with the UVs.
take the wire-girl project, enable UVs for braider, add a map (i took a simple clip map), now, do you see any geometry in the texture placement window? i am not. the map has some strange projection settings like x=0.002, y=1, z=0.002.
the base geometry has no UVs, does this affect the generation of braiders own UVs?
rendering takes a big hit with the clip map.
without clip ca. 20 sec/frame
with clip < 10 min/frame
i guess much overlapping stuff is no good. :(
for simpler projects it works as expected.

Igors
07-29-2006, 02:55 AM
Hi, Uweyes,
BUT rendering takes longer.Hmm... maybe: YES, but.. :)

at the moment i have some problems with the UVs.
take the wire-girl project, enable UVs for braider, add a map (i took a simple clip map), now, do you see any geometry in the texture placement window? i am not. the map has some strange projection settings like x=0.002, y=1, z=0.002.Yesterday we've also found this problem, common for EI plug-ins: "UV bounds" (used for texture align) aren't updated automatically if a plug-in re-generates its UV's. Use switching OFF/ON of "Use UV space" or "Normalize" checkboxes in Group Window, after this align works Ok.

the base geometry has no UVs, does this affect the generation of braiders own UVs? rendering takes a big hit with the clip map.
without clip ca. 20 sec/frame
with clip < 10 min/frame
i guess much overlapping stuff is no good. :(
for simpler projects it works as expected.Well, clip maps are still much faster than RT/GI :) Essentially.. your methods to animate lines appearing are rational, but please agree: the proposed set is not a completed/final one. What if user wants an animation like "in radial way" or "strip by strip" or "random spots" or.. there are a lot of variants, really. Geometry never will do what clip map does (sorry for banal sentence :) )

shoutzager
07-30-2006, 02:29 AM
Mostly the braider settings were different on the blue but mesh density plays a large role in braider-look density.

On the red 'B' the patteren is all braider - the B is comprised of all quads (though seems they are triangulated but not visable that way to camera or animator) and braider takes that input and with some control settings output the interesting pattern.

Paul

__Thanks for the info Paul!

shoutzager
08-02-2006, 03:45 PM
Hey one more question. Did you use Braider and Trestle together to obtain the images?

SH

halfworld
08-03-2006, 04:37 PM
Looks like they were made with just Braider to me.

Ian

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