metal flecked car paint

[Per-Anders]

it's pretty simple to do. bear in mind the one in modo is onyl being used on a still, i'm pretty sure that fine a level of noise would result in prety crawling/grain style effects if camera/object animation was involved. anyhow, all you do is use a eversed fresnel in your oclor channel, and a couple of lumas shaders for the speculars combined using noises to create teh fleck in their specular. bear in mind that this needs a c4d light to work, specular being a fake for actual light reflections, and all the fleck beingin teh specular, so that emans even in a gi scene you will need a c4d light for your specular effects there. if you were working with gi alone then you would need to simulate the surface more acurately using layers of transparent laquer and normals convolution on an underlying surface texture.

[hundredthirtyseven]

bear in mind that this needs a c4d light to work, specular being a fake for actual light reflections, and all the fleck beingin teh specular, so that emans even in a gi scene you will need a c4d light for your specular effects there. if you were working with gi alone then you would need to simulate the surface more acurately using layers of transparent laquer and normals convolution on an underlying surface texture.

Well, almost all of the great metal-looking car shaders are based on a slightly different method. HDRI with GI, fresnel in the reflection, simple metal specularity that looks good with a normal no-gi light setup. Now put that in a GI enviroment and the speculars won't work. BUT you can add

version a. a no-diffuse, specular-only area light in fR2 with area speculars enabled
version b. if you don't have fR2, add some 4-6 normal specular-only omnis in AR to create the same effect


That's because reversed frensnel in the colour channel with GI can fake the metallic look, but it will never look good enough.

[rodney71]

THANKS a ton for the sample, Per. it's better than what I was coming up with (not using the luminance chanel).
And thanks for the other tips Zoltan. provides some options to explore.

[acmepixel]

Tons of beautiful metal and metal flake shaders by Martin Kay;
http://www.martinkay-3d.com/shader_1html.htm

[rodney71]

thanks, Acme. I've sent him an email and am eager for a response.
I've played around with your preset, Per. it's just not reacting to the lights like I'm wanting. those Modo paints seem to have a real depth with the glittering flecks falling off so nicely. this is proving more complex than anticipated. thanks for all your help though. I think I'm gaining at least a little ground.

[Primitiv]

I did a flaked metal shader some time ago.
http://homepage.mac.com/primitivx/.cv/primitivx/Sites/.Public/New%20Flaked%20Car%20Paint.jpg-zip.zip

Here is the link:
http://homepage.mac.com/primitivx/.Public/New%20Flaked%20Car%20Paint.zip

[Primitiv]

I did a flaked metal shader some time ago.
Here is the link:
http://homepage.mac.com/primitivx/.Public/New%20Flaked%20Car%20Paint.zip

[rodney71]

thanks for posting Primitive. I think that's similar to what I was achieving as well so it confirms that achieving the results I'm after isn't an obvious solution. I'm sure you'll agree that the thread I posted had much livelier looking highlights in the flakes.
I think I'll try transferring and rendering my logo in Modo to compare. Wanted to save time and work in a app I'm more familiar with but may need to sink into Modo's shader tree...a bit different for me to get comfortable with.

[Per-Anders]

you know, i'm afraid i have to disagree, the modo paint fleck looks really bad to me and 2 dimensional, no depth at all also very pixelated. however if you really want that look just do this, in one of the lumas shaders in the amterial i posted, just up the specular brightness on the larger speculars much more, you may also wish to change the mixing noise to just "random" and then to turn off best aa (aa will work against this effect with a random noise). the result will be much closer to the unfortunate modo look. it's purely about the contrast that you use/put in. then you may wish to modify the normal material specular and reduce it's width and bring it's falloff back towards a more straight look.

Just so that you ahve something real world to compare to,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4631

You'll notice that only in the really super close up with a very strong light source directly on it is the flake clearly as visible and "grainy" as you're expecting. Often we think of materials as far more exagerated than they really are. Paint fleck isn't really all that noticeable except under strong showroom lights, and even there it's not as grainy as you might expect unless you're really close to.

It's also truthfully very like a graded set of noises one for each specular, a very small fine one for the brightest going down to a larger blurrier one for the wadest (deepest) specular. You can achieve this using multiple lumas to generate the speculars of different widths and multiple noises used to mask them out, another great mode to use for this would be "levr" that would actually allow you to create a distribution of noise form light to dark (not just a mask), for an even more accurate effect.

[helluvapixel]

you know, i'm afraid i have to disagree, the modo paint fleck looks really bad to me and 2 dimensional, no depth at all also very pixelated.

Notice the white blowout artifacts as well? Oddness there too.

[tcastudios]

Would you believe, my first career some 20 years ago, was custom painting.
Any flaking job was a total nightmare:) Thing is, it has real depth, the flakes acting as billions of mirrors are floating in liters upon liters of clear coat. And you have those darn flakes -every where- for months after...

I don't have a one shader solution for this, because I don't think there is any.
Any such setup I've tried to re-use haven't worked because paint jobs are 99 percent dependent of the environment.
A super flaked bike looks awesome in the showroom and in direct sunlight or street light at night, a cloudy day its just "dead". Also, the "problem" with flake jobs is, they do seldom look good on picture....to feel the depth either very good lighting or actual movement is needed.

For regular metalic (like a everyday car paint) I think using specular and specular color and possible lumas should be sufficient. A notch of Fresnel at different materials might also help, but as Per pointed out, the metalic hi-lights are are most prominent around lightsource reflections. Nowadays we have area lights that actually can be reflected, so that helps. So play around with specular colors.

The step over to the heavy hotrod flaking however do need another approach.
To get that real depth I think to material setups are needed as well as double geometry.
The actual flake part I'd go for Cell Veroni via colorizer in the Normal channel.
Then either depending on the scene, a colorized HDR Environment (multiplied by the base color used, and/or Reflection set over 100 percent masked with the environment texture (to get the contrast).
Then duplicate the geometry and add the actuall top clear coat, same env/refl as the "base" , no color and additional specular settings. And finaly a small displacement for getting it above the base geometry.

Please have a look at the small quicktest example (All QT)
Flake01 (http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/Flake01.mov)
Flake02 (http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/Flake02.mov)
Flake03 (http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/Flake03.mov)
MetalCandy (http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/MetalCandy.mov)
http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/BlueFlakeStill.jpg

Cheers
Lennart

[rodney71]

wow, what an education here. So, one thing I'd like to know. How do you know so much, Per? thanks for taking time to go into greater depth. I'm going to have to post some results here soon with some improvements to my initial tests. Still trying to test all this stuff.

Lennart, those look pretty cool to me.

[rodney71]

I was just noticing that the shader you supplied (Per), with some tweaking, was looking a lot different in my test scene than in my final render scene. I finally figured out that it was in the render settings (duh) and that the MIP scale in the AA tab was making a huge difference in how noticeable the flecks are. Finally getting somewhere. So many variables it's boggling.

[jsls]

Lennart, WOW, that is one gorgeous shader!!! :applause:

[Per-Anders]

nice shader tca, shame firefox keeps crashing when i try and play the videos :/ (long standing firefox/quicktime bug).

rodney71 - this stuff is just practice, observation, a good grasp of what each shader can do and knowledge of the layering modes, you get that by messing around with them as much as possible in any downtime, the layering is just the same as using photoshop or after effects, so your knowledge there will just translate right accross, the shaders just involve experimentation, things like lumas that appear complex at first really aren't so difficult to grasp, the main thing with all materials is just practice.

learning a bit about the theory can help too, if you can break down why itis that a surface looks the way it does in real life you will find it's often simpler to replicate in the virtual world because you can translate that to certain shaders and what they're doing, it's even better if you have a rough grasp of how the shaders work, because then you can match it up fairly closely. it's just knowledge of what each thing was trying to simulate, and then thinking of them like something you'd paint onto the surface rather than intrinsic, so it's more flexible that way. anyhow practice makes perfect.

[rodney71]

I agree half the battle is in seeing, Per. It is clear you have looked intently at a lot of things and I find it similar to work in fine arts. it really makes you study the world around you in a whole new way and is rewarding to get something pleasing to look at that is a result of careful observation and practiced execution. no different here except there is a lot of deep logic in the complexity of tools and many parameters.

I thought it time to actually post something after all my experimenting. You can judge how well it's come so far. thanks all for your help.

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc.jpg

this is a logo design i did for a company that needed rebranding. This 3D logo was just supposed to be something flashy for the website and maybe for use down the road in an animated intro. Turns out they like the 3D version so much they want to use it on stationary and just about anywhere else possible. Not sure yet how this is going to work in all the various scenarios but it'll be interesting for sure.

[rodney71]

any crits now that you have a visual?

[tcastudios]

My first reactionis : Cool.

But I think you have to step back and decide if it should be more graphical or more photorealistic.
Right now it's neither, I'd say.

Do that and nail the optimal angle. Is it supposed to be viewed from a specific angle?
Right now its a dull dead view.

Think of what imaginary environment it should be in. Indoor garage, outside wall, in a club, day or night, in outer space etc. What is it lit by? Colored spots, sun thru a window , dessert sun etc. It is crucial for the shading to get the "umpf" out.
You can work your heart out with all that paint job and crome, it will not jump out untill you have the surroundings nailed.

Cheers
Lennart

[Martin Kay]

any crits now that you have a visual?

Look at Paul Sherstobitoffs work done in Electric Image... he has a very large gallery. Just do a search.
Its true that you aren't going to see the individual flecks from a distance and so both Danel and lumas will get you part ways there...

Martin K

[rodney71]

yes, lennart...i plan to do more testing when i actually get this logo into an environment. I'm not so concerned just yet about putting the logo in a scene evironment with dramatic lighting and mood as i want it to be used on it's own in printed stationary, etc. it might have a simple drop shadow. I will work on angles a bit more and maybe post some options here for feedback. I can appreciate your point of view that it is neither realistic nor graphic stylized but my limited experience with 3D and observation of a lot of great work out there is that the 3D toolset produces results that often straddle the fence between these two poles. In the end to me it's more important that the image is appealing visually with the forms/shapes, negative spaces, colors, lighting, textures, contrasts and overall "feel". Photorealism definitely isn't my goal but I want to borrow observations from real world textures and lighting. I'd apreciate you pointing out if there is some particular area that bothers you in this respect as I'm always eager to learn something new. Any tips on camera angle? the main objective is that everything remain clearly readable so I can't push perspective too much.

thanks for the mention of Sherstobitoff's work. he's got some great examples to learn from. Some of his metal flake materials are exactly what I was after: http://homepage.mac.com/sherstobitoff/.Pictures/MForge/F%20Eye.jpg

I've really gotta thank you all for valuable feedback here. this is quite a resource.

[rodney71]

here's another render with punchier reflections on the gold drop. the angle is trying something just off of front and center to be a bit more interesting. Still testing.

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc2.jpg

[handige_harrie]

Here's an attempt I did about a year ago:

http://www.shademaster.nl/peter/classic-car-12.jpg

The metallic effect was achieved using noise in the colorchannel. The other channels are pretty much the same as in a non-metallic car paint material (no blurry reflections for instance). Althought I did use specular and a light (which I normally don't).

However, problems arise when you want color instead of 'silver'. Getting the colored noise right is hard; although it should be possible to get a result similar to the one above.

[tcastudios]

Maybe we missunderstand each other, I did not mean that you should render a environment. But you need a context where the logo is placed to get the materials shine.

In the same way as you cannot take a picture of any object from any angle (to make it look fantastic) I think it is paramount to get the viewing angle first, before doing any material work.

Right now it looks as a piece of something put on a table. It doesn't "rule" or dominate.
Try putting it on a "wall" or a pole along a road a bit higher than the camera.

Then put the same environment of choise in the env channel for the whole object.
Adjust and rotate the env till you find a good highlight. Make small camera moves to
fine tune the look. From here adjust each material to look good.

(I hope I make sense :) )


Cheers
Lennart

[Martin Kay]

anyone have a decent material preset for metal flecked car paint similar to what is shown in this Modo thread: http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=8239&show=car%20paint

I can't seem to come up with anything close in c4d with my limited experience and yet I'm sure it should be able to produce similar results, if not quite as easily. a sample file would be great but tips would be welcome also.

I've been playing mostly with noise in the specular color but will try some other things too.
Hi there, I've been playing about and have managed to produce a better metallic shader, one that doesn't have the highlight broken up by the noise pattern. Anyone who wants a copy to play with, just E mail me.

http://www.martinkay-3d.com/shader_pages/banji4.html

Martin K

[vid2k2]

Interesting approach :)

I've sent you an email:)

[pupii]

maybe help. not too fast.

pupi

[chris_b]

I love the look of that shader Peter... really nice complexity in there. For those of you who use FinalRender, here is another metal flake for the pile.... The nice thing about this one is that using the Shader Tree, no double geometry is needed to create the glossy and mirror layering.... pretty fast too... and works without any lights (HDRI and GI).

FinalRender Metal Flake (http://www.tendril.ca/GlossySharp.zip)

http://www.tendril.ca/glossysharp_test_cu.jpg

http://www.tendril.ca/glossysharp_test.jpg

[Martin Kay]

maybe help. not too fast.

pupi

Nice texture Pupi!

Martin K

[Primitiv]

I have some metal flaked paint I posted before. You can find the file here:
http://homepage.mac.com/primitivx/.Public/New%20Flaked%20Car%20Paint.zip

[rodney71]

Thanks for the reminder, Chris. I had downloaded that shader from Cebas forum and forgotten about it. Unfortunately I've upgraded computers and would have to transfer my license. I can't handle working on the old box anymore now that I'm using the Macbook Pro (Windows XP) all the time. I sure wish they'd provide a USB dongle.

Lennart, I think I get the gist of some of what you're saying but it's not all that clear to me...especially whether it helps my objectives or not. I assume you're referring to "environment" as like what effect an HDRI image gives with reflections and highlights, etc. I've tried a few different HDRI's i have on file and think there's a lot of tweaking and improvements that could happen there. Most of my hdri's are too busy in the chrome reflections and I want a smoother, cleaner classic chrome look. So I did rotate the one I'm using to reflect more of the sky than anything else.

with camera angle, i'll try a couple others and post them for comparison. Whatever changes I make in that department have to to be subtle though because it needs to fulfill the same purpose as the flat 2D logo in communicating the brand identity. In the end it might be safer just to use a front-on view.

[rodney71]

Here are a couple more renders with adjustements to camera angle and environment. I'd love to hear opinions on what looks stronger of the images I've submitted so far.

lennart, I chose an angle just below the logo looking up and am assuming you were suggesting just such an angle with the road sign and pole comment. how's this look to you or were you describing something entirely different?

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc3.jpg

[tcastudios]

Hi Rod. My eyes are crossed several turnes by tireness atm.
Try backing off the camera and have lesser FOV not to distort the sign so much.

I'll be back tomorrow after some hard deep sleep......

Cheers
Lennart

[rodney71]

Here's a little narrower FOV and also pretty much straight on (though not orthographic).

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc4.jpg

[Martin Kay]

Here's a little narrower FOV and also pretty much straight on (though not orthographic).



Its looking better. I prefer the straight on view. Where is the metallic flake paint?

Martin K

[rodney71]

Hi Martin. as was mentioned before, it ends up being pretty subtle until you're up pretty close. it's in the red backdrop surface but most of the surface that faces the camera is flat at the chosen angle so it doesn't show up that much at the moment. I believe it will have a stronger effect when it comes time to animate it (if we go there). Lennarts comment is definitely true that each scene affects materials in different ways and they have to be tweaked each and every time. i'm not sure the flecked property is going to show much at a straight on view, but other views will show it better. not sure when to call it quits with all the experimenting. it can sure eat up profits when you have established a fixed budget. My personal pride in my work usually pushes me to put in a fair bit of overtime, especially in areas new to my experience...but even then there are limits, no?

it's been a boost of encouragement to see what you all have contributed here.

[Per-Anders]

If you want it to be less subtle then just increase the noise size (and contrast between the brightness of your speculars). You should do some animation tests with that material though as if a noise is too small when you animate your scene it will creep and flicker rather than shimmer in the way you're hoping or might expect.

[alanmac]

Hi Rod

This has been interesting thread to read, very informative.

Can't add to the metallic shader contributions, but in my opinion I thought your original view much better, more dynamic and interesting.

Reminds me of the work of the airbrush artist Philip Castle I admired some years ago. I liked his way of simulating chrome, maybe you just need to do something along those lines in the chrome.

I'd go for the more stylised graphical look than trying photoreal if it was my project.

As I'm sure you are aware if this is going to be used as a logo for application across your client corporate image, stationary, etc. I think the very subtle effects in metallic finishes may simply get lost.

My only other comments, and with great respect this is only my opinion, I'd have made the red detail around the base of the "teardrop" opposite to how you've shown it, thicker here, going thinner to the top to meet the two outside sections.

Talking of which, I would have also continued these outside shapes on between the four chrome flashes you have on each side, rather than stop at the flashes and continue on up afterwards.

As I said, hopefully no offence, just my opinion.

Nice work, hope it works out well.

Regards

Alan

[tcastudios]

but in my opinion I thought your original view much better, more dynamic and interesting.

Hi, Rob this, is why you have to nail the view. Everybody and his aunt (and I don't mean you alanmac:) I just need to point this out since it is a logo) will have an opinion what is best.

Have a few options shown to your client and decside on which one is going to be the original view angle.

Cheers
Lennart

[Martin Kay]

Hi Martin. as was mentioned before, it ends up being pretty subtle until you're up pretty close. it's in the red backdrop surface but most of the surface that faces the camera is flat at the chosen angle so it doesn't show up that much at the moment. I believe it will have a stronger effect when it comes time to animate it (if we go there). Lennarts comment is definitely true that each scene affects materials in different ways and they have to be tweaked each and every time. i'm not sure the flecked property is going to show much at a straight on view, but other views will show it better. not sure when to call it quits with all the experimenting. it can sure eat up profits when you have established a fixed budget. My personal pride in my work usually pushes me to put in a fair bit of overtime, especially in areas new to my experience...but even then there are limits, no?

it's been a boost of encouragement to see what you all have contributed here.

I've just been standing at a cashpoint and stood looking at a car with metallic paint. Basically from 4 or 5 foot away you dont see the fleck, unless its an area around a highlight, when all the flecks show as tiny highlights. The lumas shader almost does on its own...

Martin K

[Martin Kay]

Talking of which, I would have also continued these outside shapes on between the four chrome flashes you have on each side, rather than stop at the flashes and continue on up afterwards.

As I said, hopefully no offence, just my opinion.

Nice work, hope it works out well.

Regards

Alan

Yes, I'd agree with that.
I'm not sure that the 'red' around the tear drop isn't a reflection... Very tricky to do all this stuff, more than you'd think. It would make a good challenge on CG Talk.

Martin K

[rodney71]

Alanmac, no offence taken at all. Those are all ideas I have myself explored and 100's more little tweaks and changes so I'm not surprised you might want to see it that way. I appreciate your response. The line around the tear drop felt a bit too heavy and busy in that area when I made it thicker. It comes too close to touching the red base and I'm trying to keep the drop from protruding outside the half-circle top, but I might try making it more monoline to see how it looks. It's worth another look. I also tried running the red right through behind the chrome bars but again it looks too busy and closed in. Of course you don't have the benefit of comparison but my eye told me it was better to let some air escape in those areas and not close off the shapes. I think the eye fills in the missing details on its own.

I think regarding camera angle I will use the straight on view for most things and try out another angle with some perspective for some other things like the website (where I'm not as committed.)

In the end, with regard to the metal flake material that started this thread, if it doesn't end up making a big difference in the final render, I am still very grateful for all I learned here and hope a few others did too. I hope to have more to share with others here in the future as well.

[rodney71]

thought maybe I'd post the comparison as the original 2-color vector logo. looking at it again, I'm open to reconsidering the weight of the red line under the droplet. It's a small issue, but what do you prefer?

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc_logo.gif

[AdamT]

I prefer the thin line of the original. The thicker line draws attention away from the droplet.

[gginther]

what about if there was a very thin line around the droplet? that might help the edges not get lost, especially in places like right above the leaf.

sorry if this is becoming too many chefs. I like the logo design!

<edit> just read the previous posts, you already covered this idea. . . . . anyway, I like the design, looking forward to seeing the final

[rodney71]

Adam, that was exactly my original thought and I appreciate hearing confirmation on that. Gray, i think too many thin lines in a logo need to be avoided as it makes things look a lot more cluttered and busy. wherever possible I err on the side of simplicity. thanks though.

[Martin Kay]

I like the illustrator version more than the 3d version and the thicker line works better I think.
To me the 3D version neeeds to pop out more.

Martin K.

[Triker]

thought maybe I'd post the comparison as the original 2-color vector logo. looking at it again, I'm open to reconsidering the weight of the red line under the droplet. It's a small issue, but what do you prefer?]

I also prefer the heavier line under the drop, as it tends to "hold" it up better. The lighter weight line does not offer the support for the heavy drop of oil. It also echos the line weight on the outside edge of the design. Good to see you vary the weight of the line, it adds a lot.

[rodney71]

Attempting to make it "pop" more. not perfect but I think i'm headed in the right direction. I hate to say this but I decided to scrap the whole metallic fleck thing as it just wasn't working in my scene as I wanted and at smaller sizes just wouldn't get noticed. I think it looks a bit more graphic now. It's all about playing with reflectors at this point. I will probably try an AO pass to see if it helps things sit in place better.

I will use all I've learned about shaders here in the future for sure.

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc5.jpg

[bhealy27]

Rod,

I'm going to go with Triker and some of the others. I like the heavier line better. The thinner line, particularly with reflections on it seems insubstantial and out of character with the rest of the image. It seems like the oil drop is caustic and is eating away at the line and will fall through at any moment.

This has been a good thread and your logo is "looking good".

Brian

[ThirdEye]

I will probably try an AO pass to see if it helps things sit in place better.

That's all your image needs, go for it

[rodney71]

well, after some time has passed and more decisions, the client decided that they will need the logo to be in black for building signage because it would be too expensive to change the existing red color on the buildings of the existing franchises. I decided to hand model (with polys) all the type instead of extruding vector paths so I could get rounder surfaces and better reflections. Quite a work in progress but I hope worth all the fuss over little details. would appreciate any final words of feedback. this thread has definitely pushed me to go further with this than anticipated...bad for time, good for learning. thanks all.

http://www.rodsg.com/test/gcoc_final.jpg

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