Multiple high end apps?

[LucentDreams]

I dunno, admittedly I started learning photoshop premiere, and cinema 4D 8 years ago now, but honestly I'm quick on the button for this type of thing. I ws introduced to Vegas while working at Bent Image lab,and have replaced Adobe Premiere 6.5 with it instead of going to version 7. No learning curve relally at all for me now. a few thigns I haven't figured out how to do like in premiere but very small list really.


We have Maya 7 hear, and I've taken som master classses in it and keep pusihnng to be as proefficient with it as possible, but hoenslty its a bit to learn. That one neeeds more time that I often dont have so its slower, but I used to jump between max and cinema very quickly, and I'm proffiecient enough in cinema that as a ebta tester, testers dont' have the advantage of manuals and such when learning and testing the tools, but rearely does a tool stump me, most just fit.

I rarely feel the burden of trying to "keep up" anymoe, as new concepts and such come out, it takes a while to learn, but I make sure to learn it even if its somethign I may not use right away. Zbrush is a prime example. Amanda and Patrcik over here at Lucent did all the actual sculpting work and I helps with the researching of how things work. I've yet to do an actual piece in ZBrushmyself, but I'm very aware of how the app works and what every setting is for and am quickly able to problem solve when we encounter an problem.


Best advice I can ever offer to people is focus on the whys, not the whats, thats a big problem with a lot of training material and how people try to learn, especially on deadlines.


A simple example is the fresnel shader, and the difference betweent he person who looks at it and based on training material knows, fresnel and transparency/reflection channels = more realistic glass, and the person who looks at the fresnel behaviour and says this creates a gradient or falloff according toe polygon facing angles to the camera. This means i cna use this for controlling more realistic reflections, transparency, velvet and fine surface lighting, cartoon line detection or even for interesting depth type maps for fake SSS effects. Or that it can be blended with a basic translucent shader (backlight in cinema) to create a rim light effect etc.

Looking at why it can do what it does allows broader thinking of its capaibilties and develops problem solving capabilities.

[helluvapixel]

In regards to the question of 'why' having more apps. Honestly it comes down to work flow and where the software has it's strength.

For example:
- LW is quite fast to setup and use. Along with fprime you can get stuff out fast, and this is where I'd use it.
- C4D is great for large scenes with big polycounts. Thus, I use it more for my CAD visualizations, and with Sketch and Toon it's unbeatable. In addition, now with finalrender I can get very good GI solution lighting passes quickly
- XSI is just great period. Mental ray can be baffling but XSI is very hard to beat for large scenes and heavy polygon objects. However, importing large scenes (aka CAD models) isn't as comfortable to me as C4D. However, on the flip side the HDR lighting using final gathering + GI is just astounding in image quality. In addition with the built in compositor I could, if I made XSI my sole render tool, not require AE or fusion.

There are other issues as well. I know a few CG houses near me that use LW and XSI and so I have them in case I decide to seek work with them.

In the end it really depends what you do and what you need.

While I can understand your views, it is however a little narrow.

[hundredthirtyseven]

I learned AE, PS and Premiere in the school. Paint Shop was cheaper, so I used it instead of PS. Then I bought Bryce. However, I found out the Vue is much better for my purposes so I changed to Vue. Then I wanted to learn an easy 3D app, and I found C4D. But then I wanted to make money, so I had to learn 3ds Max. Then I had a job in a MotionBuilder environment, so I learned MotionBuilder. Right now I teach ArchiCAD, C4D, I am an offical 3ds Max trainer, and I have a current job at a company who uses Maya. But now it seems that Sketchup is really good, I'll have to learn it sometime. Oh yeah, and now I changed to fusion from AE.

Beleive me, it is very easy to learn an app. Except for Maya:)

[Mylenium]

1)How does one afford all these apps, or is there a way to get them otherwise?

Oncxe you have bought the initial version, upgrades are usually affordable. In addition to that, nobody is forcing you to buy each upgrade. The only programs that don't fall in that category are subscription/ maintenance contract based apps such as Maya or MAX.


2)Where does one find the time to learn all these apps, and what sort of production endeavor requires all these apps?

You learn by doing, regardless whether you learn on actual projects, in courses or your sparetime. A looming deadline can sometimes evven be a good motivation to "just get over it" and use a feature/ program that you have always considered, but simply were afraid to use.


3)Doesn't using/learning so many apps breed confusion? How does one know when to use what app?

No. Which app to use when is entirely a matter of personal habits, workflows and experience. For instance I would never use C4D for polygonal modeling since compared to LW and modo, which I also use, workflow is poor IMO. I also never modeled much in Maya when I was using it for pretty much the same reasons.


It's been said that even artists who've all but "mastered" Maya still don't have it "mastered".
So then if I were to use ALL the apps that can run on the Mac, how long would it take to become efficient in all of those apps?

You never really "master" an app in its entirety. A character modeler does not care much for dynamics simulation other than cloth and the other way around a dynamics TD doesn't get a kick out of a hyper-realistic wrinkle on a face mesh. You focus on what you need, which in most cases is about 50% of all the functions an app can provide. Having said that, you never stop to learn and have to keep at it all your life.


Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I've found that trying to master even 1 high end 3D app is a comittment in itself.

You are right about that, but unfortunately the market does not work this way. Some generic knowledge of multiple apps is always good, but on the other hand this takes away resources from being proficient in all apps. It leads to the strange phenomenon that great character modelers may be less than mediocre in compositing apps or Photoshop, but on occasion they get exactly those jobs anmd struggle hard with them.


And also, isn't it a waste of money to spend say $3000 on an application that isn't gonna be your moneymaker?

Well, that's what demo versions are for. I pretty much know after a few hours with a program, whether I like it or not and if I would pursue it.


And again, how does one become skilled enough in ALL the high end apps to get to the point where each one has payed for itself on ANY level?

You're seeing it the wrong way. Business is business, and art is art. Neither is any prerequisite for the other. You may buy a tool because you like it, but it may be a full commercial failure and just the other way around a quirky freeware app can be at the heart of your business if it gives you exactly the advantage you need.


And then the big one-WHY would anyone want to have all these apps installed if they don't have absolute reason to use and attempt to master them ALL?
Just to launch them? To know they run on your system? Seems like a waste of a whole lot of money in that case. No?

See above.


Or are we talking about "high end app collectors" here?
Still, in that case, the logic eludes me.

No, I think you misunderstand that. Some people may "collect" apps, but you can't be sure of their motives. Apart from cracked software, there is such things as learning editions and demos and then there is also nothing wrong if you can get a program at a massive discount during some special promo. Still, even the latter does not mean that you wanna commit to this software entirely. Maybe you need just one feature of this app for a project and thus got it. Or you simply thought "Might be a good idea..." but things didn't work out this way.



I find using merely 1 3D app, 1 compositing app, and 1 editor app to be a large comittment. Financially and intellectually

...

And I can't imagine learning 4 or 5 apps at the same time, or even trying to keep up with all those apps at the same time.

No, not really. I use three 3D programs ATM (C4D, modo, LW), different versions of AE (switching between 6.5 and 7), use Photoshop and Illustrator, feel comfortable editing on Avid systems (on a very low-fi level, of course), do some DVD-authoring in Encore and Scenarist, do some web design on occasion, do my tutorials and articles, learned some audio processing tricks for that, do lots of Beta testing etc. and I still find enough time to do my sports, enjoy my DVD collection and take care of my household. Granted, I don't waste time on learning things that I wil lforget again because I will never use them in my work, but I feel there is still left enough breathing room to learn some more...

Mylenium

[dtoxxx]

Yeah I get it now.
Having a general understanding of the major apps used in the industry makes you more diverse.
Makes perfect sense.

I use Maya PLE sometimes just to try and get a better understanding of it.
I'm drawn to it. I love the way everything works in it, and the work people do with it is astounding.
It feels much more intuitive than all the others I've used.
But not being able to output anything real from the PLE version inhibits my usage of it, and therefore my knowledge of it.
I can't afford it right now, so I'm concentrating on C4D since I have the commercial license for it.

I've been seriously considering Modo, have heard great things about it's modeling tools.

Anyway, thanks for the insight gentleman.
Appreciated...

[AdamT]

I guess there are any number of different strategies you can employ. If you're a contract worker it's valuable to have some degree of mastery of the major 3D programs. If you're a freelancer it might be useful to have several of them in order to take advantages of their different strengths and avoid their respective weaknesses.

As a freelancer myself I've taken the approach of using one full-featured program (Cinema, obviously) and employing a number of "helper" apps to assist with more specialised tasks. I use Motion Builder for CA, but as better CA tools appear for Cinema I'd like to move that back to the core program. I use Rhino for some mechanical and architectural modeling. Sometimes I use Sketchup of architectural modeling. Sometimes I use ZBrush for organic modeling. For 2/2.5D stuff I use the Adobe Video Production Bundle, Pro version.

I do plan on spending some time with the Maya and XSI PLE versions just out of curiousity, and because it helps to be able to fit into others' pipelines.

[fuller]

Just my thoughts as a semi-professional, and self-taught graphist:

1. I was very lucky when i got my "tools". I received some grants from the European Union and the Cultural Ministry to buy all the necessary tools for a big project. The budget was almost limitless so i could by all the hardware and software i thought were necessary.
It is possible to find grants for cultural, non-profit projects.

2. If you work for yourself it is better to learn a few software in extreme depth than learn many different softwares.
Sometimes you see people creating unbelievable works with very simple software, but if you try to use many softwares at once you are more likely to end up using the most simple features/effects that everybody else can find too.
I bought Hexagon for 32 dollars at a deal at DAZ, but i am sill hesitating to even install it, because i don't even know C4D well enough.

3. If you didn't learn this craft at school, you will need to sacrifice a lot of time to make up the 4-5 years of experience you get in a school. Me too i noticed that i go out/ watch TV/ get drunk/ whatever since i started 3 years ago. But now, i am much more efficient, and i again start to have more free time again.

4. Often the best way to solve a problem is to forget it. Instead of trying and trying until i become crazy, i go out biking in the forest, or go out meet some friends, and when i come back i usually find a solution.
Relaxing is just as important as the time spent working/experimenting.

In fact i'm gonna turn off the computer right now!

Cheers

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