what the heck is going on with HASH

[BlueCougar]

A friend of mine has a saying posted in his print shop:

"The temporary sweetness of a low price fades long before the bitterness left by the daily experience of low quality."

[AlwaysL8]

Ultimately, as someone who has never used AM before, would I be better off biting the bullet and upgrading to 10 now, or learn
2002, then upgrade? Are there that many changes or improvements in 2003 (10)? :shrug:

[Kricket]

Originally posted by AlwaysL8
Ultimately, as someone who has never used AM before, would I be better off biting the bullet and upgrading to 10 now, or learn
2002, then upgrade? Are there that many changes or improvements in 2003 (10)? :shrug:

What's on the cover of your AM CD? you're sure it's the 2002? Because the 2003 cd comes with 9.5 on it but allows you to DL v10.

If you're on 2002 then upgrade to v10. The list of "features" introduced in v10 arent very great .. but it IS very stable. Its almost as stable as 8.5.

I was working on a project late last year in 2002/9.5 and it was horrible.. nonstop crashes even during rendering. I had to babysit all my renders b/c theyd crash every 15-20 frames. (I got very little sleep) When the v10 betas were released I gave em a try and it was a night/day difference. I still had a few problems like the EMPTYDRIVER syndrome but they were fixed by the end of the betas.

Also a lot of people complained about the new interface so they re-introduced the split Project Workspace/Timeline. (but I still hate those lil arrow things)

Its just taken em some time to get back on track after having rewritten all their code. They're not the only software company to do this, look at the horror that was XSI 1 and 1.5.

[ZPiDER]

i think the features added to 10 ARE cool. check out
http://www.hash.com/am2003/
especially stitch is great
http://www.hash.com/am2003/Stitch/index.htm

[AlwaysL8]

It looks like a gnome smelling a flower and does say 2003 Martin D. Hash on the bottom.

[Kricket]

Originally posted by AlwaysL8
It looks like a gnome smelling a flower and does say 2003 Martin D. Hash on the bottom.

Thats the 2003 cd, go to Hashs website and DL v10. =)

[AlwaysL8]

I owe them an apology for thinking that they were selling off old software. I have upgraded to version 10.0b. Of course I still don't have a clue how to use it. I did notice that when I start 9.5 the libraries are present. When I open 10, there is nothing in the library.

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by JTalbotski
Maybe this forum can use the combined knowledge of the users to write up better bug reports that are sent to Steve. That way we can all verify that they know about certain bugs or we can actually prove that it is someone's system that is the fault. That would be constructive and not A:M worshipping.

Here's hoping,
Jim

Hi,there
that is okay,bug report
but I think somehow is it okay to pay to be beta tester permanently
I am supposed to do production 90% and maybe software issue 10
and not vice versa ,mainly bug report and project specification the bug occured in ...:)

[Kricket]

You may need to copy the Library files from the 9.5 install to the v10 directory.. Help files too.

To get you up to speed on modeling you should check out the Basic Splinemanship tutorials at http://www.alienlogo.com/tincan/ and the few tutorials in the AM book.

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by giantkiller
I just want to thank everyone especially Gilles. I was getting ready to throw myself into the arms of Hash, upgrade, invest in training videos and CDs, and just accept AMs shortcomings and deal with it all (creases, crashes) when the fire broke out! I have decided to continue my search for a software program. Any comments on ElectricImage Universe? You know, if some of these other software companies were to find out about 'The Great Hash List Incident' they may take advantage of this opportunity to lure some of you away with some deals for disgruntled AM users. Randy
P.S. I liked the elf (Perk), but whats up with that buldge in his pants?:rolleyes:

I got free MAYA,XSI,Houdini...and some other smaller packs
MAYA is easiest to learn for me
XSI is bit harder to learn and Houdini is as you are for example christian and I start teach you budhismus
fully anothe world
wonder how can be done that way

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by My Fault
You did not pay to join the list you paid to use the software. It has nothing to do with conforming and everything to do with living up to what you agreed to. No offense but if you can't live up to your part of the bargain, what does that make you?


I pAID FOR UNUSEABLE SOFTWARE which feeds itself from crashes as a virus or parasite,as much crashes gets bigger
I bought 3d programm with no documentation/manuals
for my money I can't get support,actualy I have to buy some new computers,graphics card and two,tree Os's to checck which one is not corrupted and to be honoured to work with AM

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by Cosmics
. As for crashing - i honestly can't remember what the last time was it crashed.

- Vuk
Huuu,very promissing from version 10

BTW, did you move mouse after you started AM

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by Max_Power
I have A:M 9.5, it seems to crash more in XP. Dynamics crash it a lot. I wish I knew the super secret to keeping it crash free :eek:
run uninstallwise.exe

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by walasek


If you think of all the basic features of AM, there actually is quite a lot of things (whether they work or not is another story). But modeling, texturing, bones, muscle, animating, lights, camera, render options, etc (you get the picture). It would be better if we all pooled our money, bought out AM, and fixed the bugs for a year...

if you have 10 features and 8 doesn't work or work and system crush's,THAN YOU DON'T HAVE 10 YOU HAVE 2 FEATURES

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by jaymackey
Yes, Arthur, I should have said, "Some of you 'seem' to be missing the point." I have taken a few posts on here to say that we have no right to complain.

I also do not think that you -- or even necessarily Victor, depending on the substance of all of his opinions on the subject -- are one of the Hash Myrmidons I was referring to, in case you were wondering.

WHAT IS Myrmidons?

[Dearmad]

Myrmidons? Uh... the followers who follow without question- like sycophants only one less letter involved.

[giantkiller]

In case anyone is interested, I have a copy of AM 8.5 up for bid on eBay. Just search 'Animation Master' under 'Software'. My eBay ID is 'rjwin'. It'll be up for just a few more days. Oops, I didn't violate any advertising rules did I? Sorry, forgot what list I was on for a moment.:D




Sorry for being sarcratic, sacrilatic,... I can't spell sarcastic!!:mad:

[ragtag]

Wov...this is a long thread. I better add something to it. :bounce:

I came to AM in a little different way than most. I first learnt SoftImage3D, then worked in Maya on a TV series. And then bought AM to play around with at home. I liked it, it was simple and fun...and for some godly intervention didn't crash too much on my old messy machine (this was v7). It had excellent character animation tools, but was seriously lacking in other areas. After some testing, I figured it was best used for simple characters (cartoony stuff)...so I made this Flower Power (http://www.ragtag.net/films/movies/flowerHi.mov) film (QT). Simple characters, fun animation, cartoon render...everything worked like a charm.

I then upgraded to AM 8.5, and started modeling something more advanced (http://www.ragtag.net/xternal/red/), but soon got into a lot of trouble with creases. In fact I was spending ages trying to connect the splines around the nose and mouth in different configurations, adjusting bias handles and what not....without getting much improvement (the creases would just move around to different places). So I gave up....though probably not permanently. If only they could get rid of those creases, I would be a happy camper (or just switch to using subdivision surfaces like the rest of the world).

I learned a few things though. With AM, don't run to a new version. Read the mailing list and figure out from the poor souls that are using the latest AM if it's working. This is one of the reasons I never upgraded to 9 or 9.5. Might go for 10 though, if I have a project I can use it for.

Don't try to make anything too advanced. AM may have cloth, particles and more on it's feature list....but these don't work too well. For simple cartoony characters though it works fine (Alien Song for instance). I think Hash should focus their efforts on the core code, modeling, rigging, textures, renderer, docs and the SDK...and try to make deals with third party developers to do cloth, particles, dynamics, hair, export to other renderers etc. or license existing code (like the Havoc dynamics engine or Joe Alter hair). After all Hash inc. only has 5 or so programmers, and to pull of high quality hair, cloth, particles, renderer, modeler, animaton system etc. is simply too big a job for such a small team.

AM is still focused on the low end users, and they don't prioritize implementing features only high end users will enjoy, such as scripting. That's not really a problem, as high end users can use high end software. But Hash should not try to compete with all the highend software and try to include every function you find in XSI or Maya. Their focus has been character animation, and I think they should stick to that. Leave the dynamics and effects to others (there are always ways to fake them).

Anyways....that's just my oppinion.

Ragnar

p.s. I don't really have a trouble with the mailing list, it's their's they can run it anyway they want. Though I do think AM users lack a good alternative and independant web message board. No offence to cg-talk, but preferebly dedicated and with different catagories for modeling, texturing, character setup and so on (like the Maya and XSI boards at highend3d.com ).

[HellBorn]

I would actually be prepared to pay more for less!!

Never thought I would hear meself say something like that ;)

But actually.

If Hash would raise the price to lets say $499.

I would be prepared to pay it even if they removed....

all de bugs (I simply don't like them).....
all traces of spline modelling ( switch to SubD models).....
the possibility to import .mdl model files (who need'em).....
the render engine (use RMan and PovRay).....

:bounce:

HellBorn

[giantkiller]

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."
Will Rogers

[giantkiller]

Check this out:
http://www.caligari.com/store/special/news_jan03/roman_interview.html
Its an interview with Roman Ormandy, President of Caligari talking about the new changes coming with trueSpace 6.5.
Admitting that the animation code was old so they rewrote it. And that with version 6 they focused on improving the modeling aspects of the program.
I find his openess refreshing. And I find trueSpace much more appealing seeing that they apparently have a step by step plan for improvements and they openly talk about it!

What a contrast with how a certain other program has been managed lately.:hmm:

[Natess44]

Originally posted by giantkiller
Check this out:
Its an interview with Roman Ormandy, President of Caligari talking about the new changes coming with trueSpace 6.5.
Admitting that the animation code was old so they rewrote it. And that with version 6 they focused on improving the modeling aspects of the program.
I find his openess refreshing. And I find trueSpace much more appealing seeing that they apparently have a step by step plan for improvements and they openly talk about it!


Thanks for the info. True Space does sound more appealing, at least they will allow you to "Rant and Rave" on their community board as one board topic says. :) I still like AM though and I hope it gets better!

[Natess44]

Martin Hash speaking, This is for those not on the list anymore.

"Dear Customers;

Concerning the recent events on the mailing list. I want to personally
thank those of you who publicly and privately contacted us with hundreds of
calls and emails affirming your support. It is gratifying to know just how
many A:M users really appreciate the commitment we've made to you. I
especially want to thank those brave souls who risk their own reputations
arguing for us in the hate forums - I owe you all a beer or a feature,
whichever you want.

As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents. Sometimes, when life and
career goals force changes in allegiance, the artist backlashes. I don't
hold it against them. Eventually, I want them to think of A:M like they do
their first bicycle: with fondness and respect, and then pass it on to
someone who needs it.

For now, our primary focus will remain on stability, as it has been for over
a year, and any true errors in the renderer are always immediately
addressed. As a quick explanation, when we "release" a version number, we
try not to work on that code base again, even to fix bugs, because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather "release" software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta.

So, if your goals continue to be making your own art and telling your own
story, we are there for you.

Thanks again for being there for us.

Sincerely,

Martin Hash

p.s. Ken promises not to make any more provocative statements on the
mailing list."

Looks prommising.

[My Fault]

Where did this email come from? Was this posted on the AM list?

[Natess44]

yea it's from the list

[Commiekeebler]

I guess I'm one of those Former AM users with cathartic outbursts...

... either that or a truly evil mofo (several people vouched for me on that!)...

... in which case I'll have to share my hell with Martin...

... oooooh....

... can't wait...
:bounce:

[Wegg]

You know I really do think Martin Hash, Steve and Ken just don't get it. None of the posts I read on the AM list were attacks. If I got this much good solid constructive feedback from my user base. . . I'm pretty damn sure I would thank everyone and promise to improve the product.

Not rationalize, patronize and satirize. . .

[Raji]

As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic
Looks prommising

oh come on...

:rolleyes:

[dfaris]

quote================================
Dear Customers;

Concerning the recent events on the mailing list. I want to personally
thank those of you who publicly and privately contacted us with hundreds of
calls and emails affirming your support. It is gratifying to know just how
many A:M users really appreciate the commitment we've made to you. I
especially want to thank those brave souls who risk their own reputations
arguing for us in the hate forums - I owe you all a beer or a feature,
whichever you want".
End quote=============================

Martin you have missed the point as well as you miss fixing bugs. The point
of all us religious zealots, evil mofos and former AM users posting to the email list that
we have now got booted from is because we liked AM and wanted it to become
the app it should be and work the way you say it works.

Nobody has risked there
reputations arguing for hash anyone that is know in the hash community is still well
respected like the fine folks at Eggington and Victor and everyone else. The reason
there are "Hate forums" is because you at hash have forced us to go to other platforms
and it is nice to see people able to talk and ask questions without the fear of being booted
because we speak the truth and AM.

One more time so you might get it, WE WANT AM TO BE THE APP IT SHOULD BE
AND CAN BE.

quote========================================
As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents. Sometimes, when life and
career goals force changes in allegiance, the artist backlashes. I don't
hold it against them. Eventually, I want them to think of A:M like they do
their first bicycle: with fondness and respect, and then pass it on to
someone who needs it".
End quote=======================================

AM generates loyalty and commitment by kicking people off the email list and
trapping people into buy an upgrade each and every year for software that never
works the way you say it should. I don't want to think of AM as my old broken bicycle
that don't work the way it once did I want to think of it as a bright shinny streamline
machine that is fast and looks good.


quote====================================
For now, our primary focus will remain on stability, as it has been for over
a year, and any true errors in the renderer are always immediately
addressed. As a quick explanation, when we "release" a version number, we
try not to work on that code base again, even to fix bugs, because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather "release" software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta".
End quote=========================================


What about all of us that have version 9 and 9.5 with all the bugs still in there? are
we all SOL? The out cry on the list is telling you that your explanation about released version
is wrong and people feel like they are getting ripped off. If you fix it in the next release
(that we have to pay another $99 for) and changes cause changes is it not causing changes in that too.
JUST FIX THE VERSION WE HAVE so you don't have to keep putting it off till the next version.

quote==========================================
So, if your goals continue to be making your own art and telling your own
story, we are there for you."
End quote=======================================


They are and always have been but you are not there for us by kicking us off the list and
making us pay for the next version to get bugs fixed in the one we have.

When will hash wake up and see the big picture? We like AM and still think the animation tools
are great but you are not seeing the point. The users want the modeling tools to be improved and the
world class renderer brought up to par with other renderers. If that means no next version for the next year
so what. We don't want to be kicked from the list for asking about a bug because HASH say its our computer
or we don't get a reply at all. We don't want to pay so we can be beta testers for the next release when the bugs in
the version we have are not fixed yet.

quote=======================
Thanks again for being there for us.

Sincerely,

Martin Hash

p.s. Ken promises not to make any more provocative statements on the mailing list."

Looks prommising".
End quote=============================

Only looks promising if HASH sends out an email saying
WE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND WE WILL FIX IT BEFORE WE RELEASE
THE NEXT VERSION. Also all of you that have been treated badly please stand by and
see if we do what we say we will do.

[Natess44]

Originally posted by Raji
oh come on...

:rolleyes:

Your improperly quoting me. I wasn't exactly agreeing with the statements Martin made but I was agreeing to to the Idea of fixing A:M.

[fluffybunny]

Well, the only thing promising is what "appears" to be admission that there's an actual issue.

It kind of reminds me of this:

http://news.com.com/2009-1001-817210.html?legacy=cnet

I guess Martin's about a year behind Bill.
MS does "seem" to have gotten a bit better....

It's funny who Martin's hero is :p

[Drakkheim]

Originally posted by dfaris
quote================================
....What about all of us that have version 9 and 9.5 with all the bugs still in there? are
we all SOL? The out cry on the list is telling you that your explanation about released version
is wrong and people feel like they are getting ripped off. If you fix it in the next release
(that we have to pay another $99 for) and changes cause changes is it not causing changes in that too.
JUST FIX THE VERSION WE HAVE so you don't have to keep putting it off till the next version.

.....
When will hash wake up and see the big picture? We like AM and still think the animation tools
are great but you are not seeing the point. The users want the modeling tools to be improved and the
world class renderer brought up to par with other renderers. If that means no next version for the next year
so what. We don't want to be kicked from the list for asking about a bug because HASH say its our computer
or we don't get a reply at all. We don't want to pay so we can be beta testers for the next release when the bugs in
the version we have are not fixed yet.


Well said! amen to that.:applause:

[jaymackey]

As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic.

I believe there are more than three categories of Hash detractors.

What about current users who have been banned for speaking truthfully about critical problems with the software. How about users that really would like to use it, but just can't get it to freakin' work on their otherwise rock-stable system!!!!! What about users that report a critical, work-halting bug through official channels and are never notified that this is a recognized bug, or that it is currently being investigated, or even that it has been fixed. (Project Workspace Corruption bug -- feel free to enlighten us on that if you can, Martin.)



A:M generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents.

Adherents? Is he saying A:M is a religion or something? (EDIT: This is possibly a tautology, i.e., true by definition. Adherent can mean loyal and commited follower. Therefore, this statement can be re-stated as, "A:M generates loyalty and commitment in its loyal and commited followers. Of course, I think he means users, not adherents. But hardware and software applications do have adherents. There are Mac users, and then there are adherents. There are MS users, and then there are adherents. Same for Linux. Same for A:M. I have no doubt that Hash has gotten some positive responses. There are always a lot of A:M 'adherents' at any given time. Otherwise they wouldn't be boasting about their profitability right now. The Point that Martin should really be making, if he can, is that there is a high percentage of adherents that have stuck with A:M through the years and are using it now.)


Sometimes, when life and career goals force changes in allegiance, the artist backlashes. I don't hold it against them. Eventually, I want them to think of A:M like they do their first bicycle: with fondness and respect, and then pass it on to
someone who needs it.
Career goals? Like maybe the goal of finishing something without waiting for the next version?

A parable for Martin:

A child's father gives his child a tricycle for his birthday that has flat tires and a bent handle-bar, and that tends to tip over when the child gets up to a decent speed on it. When the child comes home crying, with scrapes and bruises, he is told that it is his fault for riding recklessly, and maybe even gets kicked out of the house for whining about it. The tricycle gets patched up a bit by the father, and he promises the child a shiny, new tricycle next year, and the child anticipates his next birthday, hoping to receive a tricycle that works. The other kids on the block have nice tricycles, that perhaps are not as manueverable as the child's trike would be if it didn't have flat-tires, but at least the other kids don't tip over every time they get on their tricycles. Each year the father proudly rolls out a new, 'better' tricycle, and then a bicycle, sometimes with accessories that kind of work to a degree, and sometimes with tires that make the bike almost as stable as the bikes the other kids on the street are riding. But then the father gives his child another dangerously unstable bike, and then another. Meanwhile, the other kids have received ten-speeds and motorbikes. Even the kids whose fathers can only afford plain old bikes like his have bikes that don't wobble and crash like his does. Infuriatingly, the child's father maintains that the bike he has given his child is the finest bike in existence, and that all of the kids will be riding bikes just like it one day. Finally, the child becomes disillusioned with all of the promises and exagerations, and he snaps. He thinks about giving his old trykes and bikes to needy kids who don't have anything, but then he decides he wouldn't give them to his worst enemy. He throws his tricycles and bicycles in the garbage, tells his father to go to Hell, and runs away from home.

Let he that hath ears, hear.


p.s. Ken promises not to make any more provocative statements on the list.
Now if Martin will promise to do the same...


BTW, it seems to me that the business strategy of simply creating something that looks good enough to entice newbies into buying it, with no intention of actually creating something that will truly compete with the 'big' boys, is clearly stated in Martin's post. EDIT: OK, maybe only implied.

[BlueCougar]

I'm trying to glean the bottom line to all of this and I think the answer is that Hash can't deliver on his promises and he knows it. Right now their putting a spin on everything like a politician. They can reverse engineer the hell out of all the packages out there trying to get it right but they won't. That's why they are so defensive, because they can't deliver. To those of you that disagree, where is the proof? Yes, there are some great aspects to the program but all around as a complete package, have they delivered?

I think the answer is no and Hash knows it. That's why it pisses him off so much to hear people make mention of bugs and issues, he know he can't do anything to fix it. If he did he would say, "You know, you're right, we'll get right on that. It might take a little bit of time, but we will deliver. " Instead you get a bunch of rhetoric.

You get denials and accusations in defense of something none of us understand, which in reality is their hurt pride that they just can't deliver what they claim to have. They can create the button in GUI and some code that gets close but in reality, it needs a wheelchair and a walker to get it out the door.

I know I'm being harsh but with the admission they could fix it or do it another way would obligate them to deliver on it. Then they would be even deeper in it, because the reality is they can't. To those who disagree, look at the facts....and ask yourself if they've delivered. I open it to anyone who can prove this wrong, I need to know I'm wrong and that its just not another snowjob in this world.

"Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause"


Just my .02

[Dearmad]

From M. Hash:
"because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather "release" software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta. "

Because changes cause changes!?!? Hello? what?

And what USERS have claimed they want release software to be consistent WITH ITS BUGS and ERRORS!! As in don't take out the bugs!? LEAVE THE ERRORS IN!

And if WANT BUGS fixed LOOK for them IN THE BETA/ALPHA!?!? Since when did I sign up as an employee to this frickin company?!

WTF!!??:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: The guy IS ON DRUGS! He clearly can't string a coherent thought together to save his life.

OMG the guy should shut his pie hole.

[Hookflash]

Dearmad: Hehe, I was just wondering about that myself. Can he honestly believe we would prefer bug-ridden software just so A:M can remain consistent with previous minor releases? Am I missing something here (aside from $300)?

[dfaris]

From M. Hash:
"because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather "release" software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta. "


I think what he is saying is that if they change something to fix it well that might break somthing else and that the users would rather have release software that have all the same bugs and crashes.

HEY MARTIN! FIX THE DAMN SOFTWARE THEN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT VERSION!

[Dearmad]

I thought that's what he was saying, and that's why Martin is full of -bleeeeeep-:shame:

[Prometheus666]

"As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents."

This is just idiotic. This is not an answer to detractors, it's willfull ignorance of the fact that most of the posters to the thread that eventually lead to the creation of this forum are loyal Hash users who are unhappy with where the product is going and are very unhappy with the rules of the mailing list. Isn't it strange that most people in this "hate forum" are doing the same thing, in a more open environmnent, that they did on the mailing list, namely ask and answer questions about using hash. Steve's reaction is, frankly, a bit cultish. And I should know, I'm an Objectivist :p

[Dearmad]

Well, it also overlooks the fact that a lot of us outcast Heretics are the ones neck deep in projects- we don't just toy with the program but actually try to use it. I know I've been giving it a work out this past year and a half and that's going to continue for at least another year.

I'm able to seperate the product (AM) from the people... and I'm glad I can because I really DO like the animation tools. I'm even OK with the modelling tools (for the most part), and so far I'm fine with the renderer. Actually, I even could say I *like* the renderer. It's a little slow, but I've found settings that work for the look im going for.

[walasek]

Have we become that accustomed to crashes that we *actually* believe its our own fault:

Kevin Sandersen wrote on the list:
That's great! But I should remind those of you who haven't bothered to take
the time to fix your own systems, that you should do that first. Just
recently saw a person post to this list a major crash after
installation...turned out it was his system. A new video card fixed his
system problem. Hopefully he's checking out the rest of his computer. A
woman at my work was experiencing major computer crashes and problems with
mainly Microsoft programs. I tweaked her system with the fixes on my website
http://www.ksanderson.com/amtips.html and her computer experience now is
very stable. I didn't dream these Windows tips up. They've been collected
mainly from reputable sources and proven many times to work. I bet the
majority of problems people have reported on this list could be remedied by
these fixes. Hey, gang, it's worth trying if you haven't. Many of us who
report A:M and general stability with older computers have done this and
rarely have problems.


I'm sorry, but that is bs. I am a programmer, and a damn good one. If a program crashes, its the program's fault. Pretty much all the time. period. There is absolutely no reason for a crash. In any program. You can check return values when allocating memory, check and validate memory contents when accessing memory, check drivers, etc. IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs... thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn't correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn't handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don't have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.

Ok rant off...

[dfaris]

Can I have a Amen Brother




Good post walasek

[HellBorn]

Originally posted by walasek

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs... thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn't correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn't handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don't have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.


Well.. try to spread that info on the mailing list...

I did once take the same standpoint as you on the AM list...
It did not take long untill I got a letter from Steve telling me my subject no was approriate for the list ...

Saying it's someones computers fault is OK on the list but to say it's not, that's against the list rules..

[ZPiDER]

Originally posted by walasek
Have we become that accustomed to crashes that we *actually* believe its our own fault:

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs... thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn't correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn't handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don't have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.

Ok rant off...

you seem to forget the FACT that also drivers, operating systems and virus scanners (etc.) are FAULTY software.

if you start checking for every possible failure any OTHER software can generate in yours, you wont be able to be such a damn good programmer anymore. you'll do nothing else but checking.

in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver - induced (and dont tell me bull, this is not only a problem in a:m!!) and OS induced (you people are ranting about windows any time, but hash seems a better victim now eh ?).


to those people still whining about being kicked off the list:
you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder.

this will be my last post to this thread because obviously ANY post is useless, you all just keep running in circles.

this will also be my goodbye to CgTalk. seeing how much dis-information, half-information and complete non-sense you can find in this thread takes the credibility of the rest of this whole site to a new low.

thank you for reading this far, though i doubt any of the people adressed DID read this far.

please DONT bother answering as private mails, i dont want to see any more of this bullshit

bye

[Nurb'd]

ZSPider "if" a lot of people are having crashing problems then you can really only come to one conclusion. Bad coding

if it was a minority or limited to a small group then that is different

All that said... I am just trying to picture a company like Newtek or Maxon going through so much effort to silence people... makes you think

[Hookflash]

zpider: Yes, I'm sure some of A:M's crashes are due to bugs in other non-Hash software running in the background. But, most of them are not. My system is very stable... I have run many demanding apps on this system without problems. A:M has been one of the few exceptions... It crashes regularly, due to it's *OWN* bugs.

[no0ne]

like he said

spinnin around the ego-axis :bounce:

it's sad that some noisy people .... :annoyed:
shy away another great plugin-programmer, modeler,... :arteest:

thx alot :hmm:

zpider :beer:

[Raist3d]

I am also a software developer and sorry, the "check your machine" excuse is way past redemption ( to make an obscure warcraft 3 reference).

It is true that drivers and some stuff can cause your computer to be somewhat more unstable to an extent- but when you can run your other programs pretty well with no crashes, and they exercise your computer very good (play any demanding 3d realtime game for example) your machine should be pretty good.

How come Animation Master is THE buggiest application amongst the decent sized ones that I have EVER seen.

The "it's your fault' excuse it's just that, an excuse. I have seen different 3d programs running on my different configurations I have had throughout my desktop/laptop history and none of them crashes anywhere near as much (by light years) as A:M.

This excuse and insult to the customer has grown truly old.

"you seem to forget the FACT that also drivers, operating systems and virus scanners (etc.) are FAULTY software.

if you start checking for every possible failure any OTHER software can generate in yours, you wont be able to be such a damn good programmer anymore. you'll do nothing else but checking."

It's funny how you automatically assume the fault HAS to be in the user/customer (particularly of a programmer, now that can have irony). And what makes you think that we haven't checked exactly for our machine setups? How come other 3d software runs *vastly* more stable than A:M on the different machines I have used since I bought the program? How do you explain that?


"in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver - induced (and dont tell me bull, this is not only a problem in a:m!!) and OS induced (you people are ranting about windows any time, but hash seems a better victim now eh ?)."

Allright so how about this: Go ahead and select Direct 3d and use the software reference driver that is provided by Microsoft. Go ahead. That should be pretty solid- it's not hardware dependent, all it's emulated. And see if you crash often (answer: yes you will, I have tried this alfready).

And what the hell a crash because you are UNDOing stuff has to do with graphics drivers anyway?


"to those people still whining about being kicked off the list:
you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder."

Yeah, everybody is evil and "we" are the saints. Nice going dude.

It's not like the A:M list doens't show its own bias... pro comments are very ok even when off topic. Discussing simple workarounds due to bugs is not ok, yet the list is called a "support list."

Sorry, I am also fedup with that. I sincerely hope Matrin, Steve & Co are going to honestly try to think about what has been happening as a new opportunity to be honest about the issues and truly improve things (and I am inclined to think they are). But I am not in a rush to upgrade to V10 until I see some evidence.


What Martin said about the "detrators" WAS NOT cool. Not even a lot of the so called detractors fall in any of the groups he mentioned.

It's sad because all of this is actually a great opportunity for him- what do you prefer- that people tell you there are things that are wrong and give you strong hints on what they want or that they say a silent "F. you" and never go back to buy from you?

- Raist

[Stychentyme]

Ok guys looks like this topic is really starting to flourish. Would you guys like your own forum here on cgtalk? Where you can carry this on as well as other topics.

I honestly think that the A:M community is to "sheltered" by saying that I mean there's some great work being done that never gets the proper recognition it deserves. And Hash is notorious for not advertising their product

salud

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think that's a great idea! This would be a great alternative to the AM list.

Do it, man!:bounce:

[My Fault]

Originally posted by Stychentyme
I think that's a great idea! This would be a great alternative to the AM list.

Do it, man!:bounce:

Your friends call you Sherlock don't they? :p

[dfaris]

ZSPider,

to those people still whining about being kicked off the list: you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder.:

No you are missing the point, its not whining about getting kicked off the list its about getting the damn software we paid for. Some of us have used AM for many years and we were always told they were going to fix stuff and they never have. Year after year we sent in our money and we got new features that dont work or were unusable in one way or another or other features that onced worked and now didn't. Hash at 1 or 2 times had most of the bugs worked out on a few versions but the very next one other stuff was broken or features that were in AM that people used is now taken out. Taking features out of software to fix a problem is not the answer.

You do not charge your users for software that you know has lots of bugs then turn around and spend time and money trying to tell them not to say anything to anyone about it. Hash does not seem to understand that some people have deadlines to meet and dont have a lot of time for them to fix stuff that should have been fixed by now. If hash ran the beta program thay have in such away that the software stayed in beta till ALL the bugs were worked out and not till the end of the year that would work but they cant just move on to the new version and leave the old version with out fixing the bugs.

Well inless hash makes some majior changes and lives up to them they are in big trouble

[walasek]

Originally posted by no0ne
like he said

spinnin around the ego-axis :bounce:

it's sad that some noisy people .... :annoyed:
shy away another great plugin-programmer, modeler,... :arteest:

thx alot :hmm:

zpider :beer:

Sounds like you support zspider... Well, I can't disagree that sometimes it is another program's fault, or that it *could* be hardware drivers. Hell it could even be hardware (memory chip goes bad/faulty power supply). But in all honesty - it usually isn't.

I do realize that this work is *very, very* CPU and GPU intensize, hitting the limits on memory usage, Video RAM, and Graphic card capabilities. It also puts a pretty good stress test on your system. I also (posted in another thread) laugh at Maya, cause they crashed almost right away.

I want you to do something. Look on the hash web site for the minimum system requirements to run AM. See it. I (plus almost anyone these day) meet that requirement easy. If I look at Maya's system requirements, I don't quite meet them, so I know that I should probably upgrade. That's the point of system requirements - the minimum requirements necessary to *run* the software. (I actually feel bad that I posted that Maya crashed after checking the system requirements - I was at fault there).

I am sure I do crash because of my graphics card. Hell it aint even a GeForce. It still does not excuse the application developer from not checking return codes...

[JBarrett]

I don't believe Zpider meant to imply that crashes are always due to system settings. The same goes for Kevin Sanderson's page of tips. By making system tweaks, one can improve stability across the board and perhaps alleviate some problems, but it obviously won't fix any problems that are still in the software. And there are some still in there.

I run across them, I report them, and cross my fingers that they get fixed. Sometimes I get a response that they've duplicated the problem and will take care of it. Other times I get no response at all. They're busy folks, so I tend to let it slide if I hear nothing back. Many times, the things I've found and reported have been repaired. There are times when Hash can't duplicate a problem, and while it doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist (and I don't think they have ever openly claimed that), it just means that it's more intermittent and harder to track down.

Along that line, I'm of the opinion that a lot of these trickier, more intermittent problems are being researched, but they might not make it into the list of fixed bugs. It's not something that they can say "Hey, we fixed it when you do such-and-such and it crashes" because there may be multiple ways of "setting off" the crash. It doesn't show up on the list, and people assume that the problem is still there. But that doesn't mean it's being ignored.

Again, this is merely my opinion. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd at least like to believe that this is what's happening. I can't really cast judgement on what they are/aren't doing seeing that I'm not there watching them on a day to day basis, so I tend to hope for the best until I see undeniable proof to the contrary. And while I can't deny that there are still things that will crash A:M, I also can't deny that they do make an effort to fix what is reported to them. Just recently I submitted something that I thought was a bug. Steve wrote back and indicated that it wasn't because the thing I was trying to do (that I couldn't do) was actually handled another way. I also got a note from Steve that he had somehow misplaced a sample file I sent that demonstrated another bug. Mistakes happen, so I sent him the file again. He then pointed out that part of the file was missing, which was an error on my part. I fixed it and sent it again. Looking at the effort that he's making to patiently correct my misunderstandings, make sure that he has files that I send, and that the info I send is complete, I can't completely believe that they ignore their customers.

No, I'm not a rabid fan who believes that the world's 3D problems will be solved w/ A:M. Yes, there are still bugs in the software. No, I don't believe it's totally the user's/system's fault, but there are things on the system side that can be done to improve the situation. And yes, I do honestly believe that Hash is working to make A:M better and more stable.

A:M is what it is, and I try to accept it for what it is. I do not mean to downplay others' experiences with Hash or their software, as I can only speak for mine. And so far, all things considered, mine hasn't been that bad.

FWIW...

[jaymackey]

As an industrial controls programmer who has completed projects using MS Visual Studio 6 and .NET, as well as several other programming packages, I have some specialized knowledge in this area, and I agree with Arthur Walasek.

Thank you, Zspider, for adding your half-truths and disinformation to this thread. I like your plug-ins, but... :wavey: 'buh, 'buh, now. Please feel free to come back when you get banned or otherwise ticked-off with Hash. (Maybe that will never happen. Maybe Hash will see the light and turn a corner in their long history. Maybe Bill will stop cheating on Hillary.)

If games and truly high-end 3D applications work fine on a given system, but A:M crashes, then it is highly likely that the crashing is not the fault of your system or drivers. A:M may not like your drivers, but there is no fault in the driver.

What does the typical A:M file corruption have to do with your display system, anyway? Is the saving of the file only partially complete when the display system takes A:M down, or are the files corrupted because of a different bug? I believe the nature of the corruption suggests the latter.

Apparently, Arthur's post prompted you to write yours. Arthur was replying to some truly twisted reasoning on Kevin's part. Kevin's suggestion that we just start replacing video card's or motherboards to fix A:M, without any information from Hash as to which video cards or other hardware has been certified to run A:M (*snigger*) is just wrong. Does A:M's system requirements specify Nvidia only? Does Hash certify hardware for use with A:M?

How about the straw man argument that Kevin uses? He fixed a woman's computer so that it is more stable with MS applications. Yay! Did she then load A:M and run it crash-free? No? Then how does that show that the problems with A:M are due to generally unstable systems? What Kevin seems to be assuming is that most people have generally unstable systems, and that most problems in A:M would go away if they employed his remedies.


in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver induced
I believe this is true. For all 3D apps except A:M. Do you really believe that most of the bugs and crashes in A:M are video related? Really? The majority of problems in A:M are induced by the video card driver? :surprised:

And most people on here are not surprised that they were kicked off -- not if they've been on the list for a few years like I have. It is you, Zpider, that just doesn't 'get it'. They are upset that the list has those rules and is run that way, while at the same time, A:M has been very buggy. I really don't think we would be having this discussion here if A:M v9.5 had been close to bug-free, regardless of the list rules. It doesn't matter if a company has the 'right' to run their list any way they want. Your legal right to do something, the wisdom of doing it, and the ethics of doing it are often completely different things. And if someone perceives that it is stupid or short-sighted to do what Hash is doing, they have a right to come here and say it. But you don't like that, apparently. And what the heck does 'bias' have to do with anything????? Does a plaintiff have to present his case against a defendant in an 'un-biased' manner? Does he have to see everything from the defendants point of view? Or does he just have to prove his case against him? Does a defendant have to be un-biased in his own defense? No. Witness Hash's recent email. He can even refuse to testify if it will incriminate him. :hmm:

[Wegg]

I just got an e-mail from Martin. He was very civil and said that they are doing their best to listen to their customers and my/our input would be appreciated.

I don't quite understand how he can do that when none of us can openly say anything on Hash's own forum. . . but anyway. . .

I wasn't quite so civil back. :-/ I guess I need to work on that a little.

I advised him to make stability and render quality his goal and openly tell that to his community.

We will see what happens. If anything.

I really do hope something happens for the better. AM's workflow and ease of use is second to none. It just can't be relied on for squat right now. :-/

[Ben Lumumba]

they will never fix AM
it was buggy with verr 2, 2,.5, 3,and 3.23
and I gave u[p
stated again with 2002 cd 9.51 the same s(t)orry

should I have as single user 10 computer to experiment if AM like or not

AM is crush,buggy amater 3d
and wiil stay that way
we shall see
it was like that from its infancy 10 year ago
with Playmotion,than Animation:apretince
and now AM
I can bet hash wiil drop the price more and more
and add more features and more features
and take more and more stupid new wanna be 3d newbies
as customer
USA has 250 millino people who wants to be 3d
who cares
and new version
and new super truper fro fro fancy features

[Nonproductive]

This forum, with the talent and professionalism of most CG Talk members and the openess that can take place here, has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened to Hash - *IF* and only if Martin changes his attitude and direction.

He needs to step out of the Ivory Tower, put down the keys to the Ferarri and get his hands dirty down here in the mud with the users. He needs to embrace this forum, talk to the users without putting a marketing spin on it, and more importantly, *listen*.

No one here is obligated to praise A:M and CG Talk gets a LOT of traffic. Fix the software and Hash gets a lot of returning users and new users out of it. Continue on the current path, and the same path the software has been on since v8 something (and that path is NOT stability...contrary to his message to the A:M List - and if it truly has been then there may be no hope...cause stability has gotten nothing but worse) and he will drive Hash, Inc into the ground because of the negative impact threads here will have on sales. There are other "flame forums" (as he has dubbed them) - but few have the daily hits that CG Talk does.

If they don't have the resources to be an all in one package - then focus on what they are good at - animation and to some extent, modeling. Allow output to other render engines, Support OBJ import / export. We all know that OBJ's won't be as clean as native splines - but we still want the option. If you can pull off a decent render engine with everything else - then more power to ya! Right now it all needs work before it's truly worth $300 and $100 a year.

I enjoyed using A:M...when it worked. Even as a hobbyist the stability became so horrendous that using it became an exercise in futility. If the App didn't crash it corrupted a file. The day I see more then one thread here talking about *true* stability and not some ass kissing - I will be the first person on the phone to Steve to re-subscribe. A:M can be a fantastic learning tool and a great way to rough out ideas quickly to then final render in other packages.

[My Fault]

To say that they never want to fix AM is ludicrous. It's not like they want to make a bad product and go out of business.

I don't think Hash has ever experienced a backlash like what has happened these last few weeks and I'm sure Martin's email to the list and to Wegg is genuine. Maybe if everyone who is still interested in AM would take a few minutes to email Steve and/or Martin it could help keep things going on a more positive bent.

AM 8.5 is by far my favorite 3d app, warts and all. I think if they would stick with that UI (and not the horror that is the post 9 interface), work more on the creasing issue, stability and renderer (Martin should call Nicholas about his renderman plug-in) it would be living up to it's potential.

[Natess44]

What is Martin's Email?

[giantkiller]

I don't know about the crash issues really, I made 3 models with AM 2 years ago and it locked up on me at least 6 times on a dual Pentium 3 system.
But anyway, about the letter... Martin certainly can stir up the nest. I think Mr Hash has really embarassed himself. Resorting to name-calling and this coming from the head of a company? If this is some kind of a war then Mr Hash has just wounded his own side by shooting himself in the foot.
When someone resorts to name-calling('mofo' I assume does not stand for MOre FOrtunate) it is usually the sign of a small mind. But, for arguments sake, lets say that Mr Hash is not small minded, what else could it be? One- upmanship? He is very angry? He feels threatened and feels the need to defend himself and his company? I am not calling him small minded, it is just my observation that name-callers fit the profile.
I always thought that the Martin's Minutes thing on the Hash website was very revealing. I think he fancies himself a mover and a shaker. Some shaking has been going on and the movement, judging by his letter, is now going down hill.
Maybe less time spent writing about topics totally unrelated to 3D would benefit the company better. I think that the world will survive his pholosophical observations, I know I will.
He would benefit more from silence on his part if this is his response. Couldn't you see the scene at Hash 'Way to go Mr H! Thats telling 'em, Martin! That Martin doesen't take anybody's crap!' WHERE IN REALITY MR HASH HAS JUST WIDENED THE GAP BETWEEN HASH INCORPORATED AND DEDICATED AND

I for one, am still grateful that I did now buy into AM.

[Wegg]

"By the way, I have a MSCS and my ph.D. is computer graphics."

And then goes on about how he doesn't tell me how to do art. . . so I shouldn't tell him how to program. . .

WEEeee. ;-)

He just doesn't get it.

[walasek]

I first want to agree with Jazbee's in the effect that I believe Hash is doing all that it can to try to eleviate the bugs. I wasn't trying to bash Hash in my recent post - what I was trying to say (basically to the person that posted that to the hash email list) that they were basically wrong.

I have talked with Steve personally. I know he is reading this forum. I asked him. In all truth, he conveyed to me that he thought it was "a good idea" - if it keeps going. I guess there have been tries at this in the past, and they were unsuccessful - either it turned into a bitch fest, or activity just died down. I hope that doesn't happen here. So, if you think that Hash isn't reading this, you might want to reconsider that opinion.

I want to make this clear. I truly believe that Hash *is* doing everything to fix the problems that they have. I have seen this first hand from my dealings with the developers and with Steve. The hard part (maybe impossible), as Jaybees pointed out, is that if it is not a reproducable problem, then it is very, very hard to catch. If it is reproducable, please send the information to Steve, and I know that they will take a look at it - if they can reproduce it, they can find the problem, and take steps to fix it.

I kinda want to comment on AM version 9 (although I went from 2001 to 2003). Do you know that they completely re-wrote the software from the ground up? Changed the architecture, and some 400,000 lines of code? This is why it was so buggy. Do we have a right to complain - I'd say yes. Do I believe the subscription idea worked for this release - not at all (that's probably why I didn't upgrade). Hash's subscription model (the business model) really doesn't have the time in it to account for a major change in the software or architecture. That truly was the problem with v9. I am glad I was not part of that, but I do *feel* for those that were.

I also want to say, from a developer standpoint, that the new architecture rocks.... It will provide a better base than the old architecture and I am sure that V10 will be more stable than any version before it.

On a final note, I found Martin's post to the list to be a big mistake, business wise. I wonder which of the three categories I fit in since I post to CG Talk, and even Steve thought it was a good idea to have this forum. I also found his comments about having buggy software acceptable as long as we know about the bugs, to be ludicrous. To me, that was a *bad* business move, and actually makes me wonder when they say 1 thing one day, and another thing the next... very disturbing.

[Dearmad]

Weggy,

That is very interesting indeed. I'm glad you stuck to your truth and opinions. I think you may have done Martin and AM a favor bigger than anyone yet realizes.

Unfortunately this whole fiasco has left a bitter taste in my mouth, and the word via my mouth is no longer positive toward Martin's company- though I enjoy the software.

Pisses me off, if I'm truthful, that he bothers contacting certain people while letting Steve burn and pillage against the peasents.:shame:

[My Fault]

Originally posted by weggingt
"By the way, I have a MSCS and my ph.D. is computer graphics."

And then goes on about how he doesn't tell me how to do art. . . so I shouldn't tell him how to program. . .

WEEeee. ;-)

He just doesn't get it.

Ouch! You mentioned your email was not so civil, any chance we can see it? Or is it only safe for the over 18 crowd :p

[JTalbotski]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walasek
[B]I first want to agree with Jazbee's in the effect that I believe Hash is doing all that it can to try to eleviate the bugs. I wasn't trying to bash Hash in my recent post - what I was trying to say (basically to the person that posted that to the hash email list) that they were basically wrong.

I have talked with Steve personally. I know he is reading this forum. I asked him. In all truth, he conveyed to me that he thought it was "a good idea" - if it keeps going. I guess there have been tries at this in the past, and they were unsuccessful - either it turned into a bitch fest, or activity just died down. I hope that doesn't happen here. So, if you think that Hash isn't reading this, you might want to reconsider that opinion.

I want to make this clear. I truly believe that Hash *is* doing everything to fix the problems that they have. I have seen this first hand from my dealings with the developers and with Steve. The hard part (maybe impossible), as Jaybees pointed out, is that if it is not a reproducable problem, then it is very, very hard to catch. If it is reproducable, please send the information to Steve, and I know that they will take a look at it - if they can reproduce it, they can find the problem, and take steps to fix it.

(Edit)
I also want to say, from a developer standpoint, that the new architecture rocks.... It will provide a better base than the old architecture and I am sure that V10 will be more stable than any version before it.
(Edit)

walasek,

Any chance you are available to Hash, Inc. on a freelance basis? The way you turned out those obj import/export plugins was lighning fast. Or how about doing a decent hair plugin? Now, I'll pay $ for THAT!

[Nonproductive]

Weggington -not an encouraging reply :(

Walasek - reading the forums is one thing, acting on what they read is entirely a different matter. As for previous external forums dying out; that could be due to many things. No productive threads, not enough users to keep info current or simply poor "location." If A:M truly has the user base Martin claims I would be *very* worried of this forum died out. CGTalk is, quite simply, one of the *major* sites for Graphic professionals and hobbyists. If this forum dies then the user base will have been relegated to the casual hobbyist that either doesn't know of CGTalk or doesn't have the time or desire to stay current with the industry.

I doubt Martin wants A:M to fail - what business owner does want to fail? He *will* fail if he doesn't listen and act. I don't care if he has an MSCS and a PHd in Computer Graphics - that doesn't make him a good businessman or good programmer. It's more "flash" for his wall and to brag about. Martin truly needs to reign in his ego. Some of the most talented people I have ever met in all kinds of careers never went to college at all.

Lastly, While I agree that bugs are to be expected in a complete code re-write - those bugs should be fixed before charging another $100 for the next version. However, if I recall right v9 was the 3rd code rewrite since v4. It was redone for v5, v7 and then v9. I apologize if I am mistaken - but if you are rewriting your code base every 2 versions you will *never* have stability.

I want Hash to come back from this strong - based on Martin's exchnge with Weggington though it doesn't seem he can put his ego aside and listen to the users. He may be a programmer - but we are the ones that (try to) use the software - *we* know better then him what makes a good workflow, we know better then him what makes the software crash, we know better then him what we need to finish a project. When he recognizes that fact A:M may get back on it's feet...

[Wegg]

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned anything at all about our conversation. . . it was a private exchange between us and if he had posted anything I said to him in an open forum. . . I'd probably be a little miffed.

But. . . I did it anyway.

You may have noticed that I have a hard time keeping my opinions to myself. . .

[giantkiller]

I don't know about the crash issues really, I made 3 models with AM 2 years ago and it locked up on me at least 6 times on a dual Pentium 3 system.
But anyway, about the letter... Martin certainly can stir up the nest. I think Mr Hash has really embarassed himself. Resorting to name-calling and this coming from the head of a company? If this is some kind of a war then Mr Hash has just wounded his own side by shooting himself in the foot. But its not a war at all. He seems to be enjoying this whole incident
Notice the 'benevolent' tone, very much like the heads of other companys routinely ridiculed on 'Martin's Minutes'.
When someone resorts to name-calling('mofo' I assume does not stand for MOre FOrtunate) it is usually the sign of a small mind. But, for arguments sake, lets say that Mr Hash is not small minded, what else could it be? One- upmanship? He is very angry? He feels threatened and feels the need to defend himself and his company? I am not calling him small minded, it is just my observation that name-callers fit the profile. Some have called him names and thats not appropriate either.
Are we to be charged now with 'Hate Crimes'? Whats with the Martin's Minutes thing on the Hash website anyway. Perhaps he fancies himself a mover and a shaker, someone that deserves or should be listened to. Some shaking has been going on and the movement, judging by his letter, is now going down hill.
He would benefit more from silence on his part if this continues to be his response. What are people who support him supposed to think? 'Way to go Mr H! Thats telling 'em, Martin! That Martin doesen't take anybody's crap!' If this insults someone out there, don't be insulted, you should be embarrassed. WHAT MR HASH HAS WRITTEN HAS WIDENED THE GAP BETWEEN HASH INCORPORATED AND DEDICATED (and albeit disgruntled) ANIMATION MASTER USERS!!
An olive branch would have been better than a ROCK.
I believe that anyone that buys Animation Master now or continues with it is settling for less.

I for one, am more grateful now than ever that I did not buy into AM because when you buy a software program you're buying into the company that produces it. And that, in the case, is nothing but a crying shame.

Its like my Wife, shes the greatest and I love her, but her family is wretched save for a few of them.

[Wegg]

Originally posted by Nonproductive
*we* know better then him what makes a good workflow, we know better then him what makes the software crash, we know better then him what we need to finish a project. When he recognizes that fact A:M may get back on it's feet...

I stuck my neck out. I did it with eggprops (http://www.eggprops.com) , and numerous professional gigs. If you REALLY want to make a difference. . . then your going to have to stick yours out too. Put your money where your mouth is and find every bug. . . report it openly to this forum and to Steve. Find every glitch and talk about it. You have to pop their bubble dude. Don't attack. Forget the AM list. . . that place is for the repressed masses. Form a community here that is willing to work WITH Hash inc.

There should be no greater honor than seeing your name listed in the list of bug fixes. And I don't think there will ever be a better time to catch their true attention than right now.

[giantkiller]

Anyone care to assemble a list of 'demands' or 'requests' (depending on how diplomatic one may feel at the moment), have people 'sign it', electronically or however, and submit it to Hash? Pointing out specific issues with the software. Wonder how many would sign? Am I kidding myself?
Just an idea.:shrug:

[penguinpavilion]

Originally posted by giantkiller
Anyone care to assemble a list of 'demands' or 'requests' (depending on how diplomatic one may feel at the moment), have people 'sign it', electronically or however, and submit it to Hash? Pointing out specific issues with the software. Wonder how many would sign? Am I kidding myself?
Just an idea.:shrug:

Lets do it! We wont know if we are kidding ourselves unless we give it a go. I like the idea, but we need to find a way that will give it credibility in the eyes of Hash.

[My Fault]

Originally posted by weggingt
I stuck my neck out. I did it with eggprops (http://www.eggprops.com) , and numerous professional gigs. If you REALLY want to make a difference. . . then your going to have to stick yours out too. Put your money where your mouth is and find every bug. . . report it openly to this forum and to Steve. Find every glitch and talk about it. You have to pop their bubble dude. Don't attack. Forget the AM list. . . that place is for the repressed masses. Form a community here that is willing to work WITH Hash inc.

There should be no greater honor than seeing your name listed in the list of bug fixes. And I don't think there will ever be a better time to catch their true attention than right now.

Damn well said!

BTW, keep up the great work. There's a reason the Eggington crew is so well respected around here, even with that crazy opinionated owner guy
:beer:

[JoeCosman]

Originally posted by giantkiller
[B]Anyone care to assemble a list of 'demands' or 'requests' (depending on how diplomatic one may feel at the moment), have people 'sign it', electronically or however, and submit it to Hash? Pointing out specific issues with the software. Wonder how many would sign?

count me in. I'm all for getting more 'software even an artist can use.'

if it fails, then this is just another 'bad day' for hash and nothing changes.

[Raist3d]

Originally posted by weggingt
I just got an e-mail from Martin. He was very civil and said that they are doing their best to listen to their customers and my/our input would be appreciated.

I don't quite understand how he can do that when none of us can openly say anything on Hash's own forum. . . but anyway. . .

I wasn't quite so civil back. :-/ I guess I need to work on that a little.

I advised him to make stability and render quality his goal and openly tell that to his community.

We will see what happens. If anything.

I really do hope something happens for the better. AM's workflow and ease of use is second to none. It just can't be relied on for squat right now. :-/

Wellignton (hmm what was your name again? :-) ), I think you not being so civil ironically may be appropriate because of all the BS the customers have had to put up with. It's like if you want to be a good A:M customer you need to sign somewhere where you agree to a certain amount of pain and suffering.

On the good side, kudos to Martin for writting you and asking for your input. I feel he needs to do that in general with all but considering the extraordinary work that you and your co-workers have tried to do on A:M and how helpfull you guys have been, I don't mind at all you get a front seat - you guys know what you are doing.

I just really really hope Martin can look at all this as an opportunity to re-think how the company treats customers, and how it listens to them.. and also realize how much more his company and A:M can be considering they got so many things right about animation and workflow.

I remember having some e-mail exchanges with some < will remain un-named > Hash employee about why the list does not allow discussion of bugs, etc.

The main point was that the conversation will end up in a rant and name calling and what not. But on the other hand, what I have noticed on the net is that forums have an initial "growing" phase and then go stable. If someone continues posting stupid comments he /she will become ostracized by natural selection.

How hard it would really be to extend the rules to allow for such discussion like bugs and its work arounds, or open suggestions while still enforcing a degree of being civil about it- more so considering all the current kick/unkick cycles and outburtsts that happen when people say "A:M is perfect, you are such a newbie, you need to buy a mac/pc because your video card doesn't work blah blah".

Anyway, I am crossing my fingers Martin & Co. can learn from this... at the very end if you are an ultimate capitalist bastard, it still makes sense to listen and treat your customer with respect because the "Karma" you will create will reward you back (meaning, reputation, word of mouth comments, etc.).

- Raist

[My Fault]

Originally posted by Raist3d
I remember having some e-mail exchanges with some < will remain un-named > Hash employee about why the list does not allow discussion of bugs, etc.

The main point was that the conversation will end up in a rant and name calling and what not. But on the other hand, what I have noticed on the net is that forums have an initial "growing" phase and then go stable. If someone continues posting stupid comments he /she will become ostracized by natural selection.

How hard it would really be to extend the rules to allow for such discussion like bugs and its work arounds, or open suggestions while still enforcing a degree of being civil about it- more so considering all the current kick/unkick cycles and outburtsts that happen when people say "A:M is perfect, you are such a newbie, you need to buy a mac/pc because your video card doesn't work blah blah".


That person speaks from experience and a solid history with AM users. He deals with this every day and has for quite some time, you don't.

Besides, I like having this place here separate from the Hash list. I think if we all approach this like adults some good can come from it. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I'd rather do that then get an ulcer from bitching ;)

[giantkiller]

Originally posted by Natess44
Martin Hash speaking, This is for those not on the list anymore.

"Dear Customers;

Concerning the recent events on the mailing list. I want to personally
thank those of you who publicly and privately contacted us with hundreds of
calls and emails affirming your support. It is gratifying to know just how
many A:M users really appreciate the commitment we've made to you. I
especially want to thank those brave souls who risk their own reputations
arguing for us in the hate forums - I owe you all a beer or a feature,
whichever you want.

As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents. Sometimes, when life and
career goals force changes in allegiance, the artist backlashes. I don't
hold it against them. Eventually, I want them to think of A:M like they do
their first bicycle: with fondness and respect, and then pass it on to
someone who needs it.

For now, our primary focus will remain on stability, as it has been for over
a year, and any true errors in the renderer are always immediately
addressed. As a quick explanation, when we "release" a version number, we
try not to work on that code base again, even to fix bugs, because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather "release" software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta.

So, if your goals continue to be making your own art and telling your own
story, we are there for you.

Thanks again for being there for us.

Sincerely,

Martin Hash

p.s. Ken promises not to make any more provocative statements on the
mailing list."

Looks prommising.

I just had to make sure that everybody read this one more time.
This is just appauling. I mean, what a 'kiss my ***' letter. Hate, yes, I hate your attitude Mr Hash. I know that I suggested that a list of greivences be written but I must say that I don't think that I'll be there. I honestly think that it would be a waste of time. Anyone with the slightest inclination should turn their back on Hash and not look back. He obviously knows whats best, right? The Guru, the Grand Poobah! Bah!! (Now i'm calling names!)
I've learned this much in life: The attitudes of management trickles down and effects the whole company. Thats my experience from 4 years in the U S Army and 14 years in a manufacturing facility.
I've had my fill of Little Generals proclaming that they're 'King of the Pile". 'A beer or a feature' big joke I guess it really is just one big joke isn't it? And the laugh is on those who believe what this joker has to say. (Calling names again, damn!)
I was thinking of apologizing for some of my sarcastic remarks in the past two weeks, thinking that they were'nt being constructive, or spoken out of ignorance of the software. But after I went back and read this letter again... Naaaaa I don't think so.
I'm proud to say that I'm responsible for attempting to discourage at least 3 people from buying AM. I directed them to this site and encouraged them to make their own decisions.
My 14 year old daughter wants to learn 3D. Before this all happened we were going to use AM. But, she was looking over my shoulder while I was reading Martin's letter and I found myself having to explain to her what a 'mofo' is. I also found that she learned the definition in school already, oh well, what can you do?
I'm not an experienced AM user so I'm going to bow out a bit and let the people that care and know more about AM contribute to this thread and direct it to where ever its going. I don't have time for this frankly, I'm still looking for another software program to adopt, I gotta animate something soon! I will however continue following the thread, I want to know how the story ends. I appreciate CGTalk(not CGHate) and Lildragon's commitment to it, its great, thanks.

Remember: "You can buy an education and not be very intelligent, you can be intelligent and not be very smart, you can be smart but not very wise." -Me:D

balistic once said: "Do not become emotionally attached to any software program."
(Someone quoted him, oops, time to worship!)
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
moderator, moderator, moderator

[Nurb'd]

I think that lildragon could not do anymore for Hash. If the image of a company brings out this kind of response.. what can he do? It is not his fault that the history of AM is what it is. I have read this site for a very long time and learned more then I could ever repay. Almost every problem had a answer I could/can find here. Even though I just registered.. this has been my homepage for months.

Instead of calling this a forum of hate, he should be thanking lildragon for the gesture. I am sure it will die down and if enough positive users make threads it will become productive. This is what happens when you stifle speech and then it gets a chance to break out. The dam breaks. I do think of AM like a first bike. I just had to take the training wheels off at some point.


Giantkiller - embrace your daughter wanting to learn. Get this for her http://www.blender3d.org/ and you both will be a lot happier in the long run. Great free alternative "bike" riding

[PJC]

Did Hash ever replace Jeff Paries?

I think he was one hell of a tester of the software as well as a cool guy!

If Hash doesn't have someone in house banging on the software like Jeff did, then I think they should.

- patrick j. clarke

[degauss]

Originally posted by Pablo
Me too was kicked from the list, but now, sorry this thread.. there are always the same answers, can't we stopp now?
I think, you can do with every software good and bad works, every software has good and bad sites, some more other less. But at the end the artist is used to to something good, also with maya you can do very bad work, I think everybody has to use this software that he like, and let the freedom to others to use other programms.

People should also be able to make educated choices with respect to the software they purchase. As we all know, the purchase of 3D modeling/animation software is only the beginning - what often follows is a long-term commitment to learn, and in Hash's case, to help others learn. If certain issues with respect to software stability, the development model used for bug fixes/upgrades is faulty, users, both current and prospective, should not only have the opportunity to inform the company of any problems this is causing, but to let others know about this so that they an factor it into their decision.

Based on the past few days, I've grown to believe that Hash doesn't have a customer base - it has a subscription-based fan club. Customers are people who can pay for, and expect a certain level of service. A:M is quite unique in that it appears to be in a constant state of chaos comprised of both redesign and beta-quality code (even alpha, on occasion). I'll be the first to admit that new features are exciting, but when it comes time to put the pedal to the metal and actually produce something, if the software isn't reliable enough to overcome constant crashing and/or corruption issues, it will be forever a tool of dilitentes. While I'll readily admit that crashing is a function of software use in general, there are two factors that really put the severity of the problem into perspective: a) how frequently it occurs, and b) how the company reacts. Based on its recent response to user concerns, Hash gets low marks on both counts.

[degauss]

Originally posted by My Fault
Ouch! You mentioned your email was not so civil, any chance we can see it? Or is it only safe for the over 18 crowd :p

Speaking of seeing, here's a copy of the message I posted to the list yesterday, which may have gotten me booted (I haven't received any mail from the A:M list since then):

Steve Sappington wrote:

> Dear Customers;
> Concerning the recent events on the mailing list. I want to personally
> thank those of you who publicly and privately contacted us with hundreds of
> calls and emails affirming your support. It is gratifying to know just how
> many A:M users really appreciate the commitment we’ve made to you. I
> especially want to thank those brave souls who risk their own reputations
> arguing for us in the hate forums – I owe you all a beer or a feature,
> whichever you want.
> As for our detractors, they fall into three categories: Religious zealots for other software – I have no argument with their
> choice or stance. Truly evil mofos – hell awaits them. Former A:M users – I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
> generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents.


And quite obviously, some very devoted, talented, and unfortunately,
very upset customers. If this is how Martin sees it, with all due
respect, I really don't think he understands what just happened. While everyone is busily hopping onto the "Hoorah for Hash" bandwagon, stop a minute and think - were you ever helped by the knowledge and experience imparted by any of those that were booted? The way I see it, Hash owes many of these people a debt of gratitude - many of them made learning the ropes a lot less troublesome, which is especially important in light of the sparse, and in some cases, non-existent documentation. Martin may appreciate those who use the software, but I find the absence of appreciation for those who have spent countless hours helping others learn (many of whom have legitimate complaints), very unfortunate.

That's all.


----

Ah well....

[dfaris]

degauss, nice post :thumbsup:

[JoeW]

Reading Joe's comments made me kind of sad - like having a relative tell you that the woman you love really IS a dirty rotten beotch - and having it finally sink in. Sigh.

I don't agree with some of the comments about LW, though. I *do* like to model in it, and it's renderer is sweet, but mapping in it absolutely blows (Modify your geometry? Lose your UV's) and it's character animation and rigging tools are rudimentary at best when compared to Master.

Messiah, while better in some ways, is STILL a hard-core techno-geek's tool - and the interface is obviously designed by a programmer, not an artist. When I got it, I was excited - but that excitement quickly faded when I saw how complex rigging was and how feeble the documentation - not to mention the horrid camera navigation tools..... (You STILL have to import separate morph targets for facial animation? What the hell?)

Now, having said that, I think that if LW was to implement AM's paradigm (and this is the key - WITHOUT MAKING IT MORE COMPLEX), they'd be unstoppable. About a year ago, I sent an hour and a half video tape to Brad Peebler demonstrating how smartskin and poses work in AM. He was pretty excited and thought there was a lot of good information there. I don't know if any of it will show up in LW 8, but I can always hope.....

Joe Williamsen

[Nurb'd]

you are never going to get (for awhile) simplified animation

I can list why if you would like. We can start with : These companies like Newtek create for industry pro's and not people who do this for a hobby. To be frank.. other then www.maxon.net (cinema4d) making it easy is not a goal. Even with Cinema trying to make it simple... the program is becoming like others. The more they add.. the more robust they have to make the tools. The harder it is to learn. You can not keep it simple. When you get into really animating something like say ... Ice Age or Shrek.. you use dynamics, rigs that need open robust control, and scripting that can be modified.

I think you just nailed the basic problem. Most of the AM crowd wants it easy. It is a pipe dream. You can not achieve high quality animation with a simple easy setup. Not going to happen at this point. If it was possible then it would be done already. You think a company chooses to make it hard? Animating a spline character in AM is a FAR cry from animating something like shrek. It is industry first from a company stand point.

In some ways at the top (people doing it for a living) it will ALWAYS have a degree of techno geekdom to it. WETA did not use Maya in parts of production because they want to spend 6k a pop. These techno geek programs and then some are what is needed. Takes teams of techno geeks with the best programs to make one movie like shrek.

People just do not want to put the effort in learning. To be blunt .. they are not here to hold our hand. They are here to sell a "tool" to professionals who put in the blood, sweat and tears.

[Amanda]

I've been following the uproar on the animaster list, and just spent a while catching up here. First off, I think that an A:M area on CgTalk is an excellent idea. I understand that people get frustrated by the Hash-hosted list, but I also sympathize with Steve and Martin. I've been in the position of working for a small software company that simply doesn't have the manpower or resources to satisfy all customer requests, and I have to say that the folks who produce the software can be just as frustrated by unrealized potential as customers can be.

Generally, I'm satisfied with A:M and the amount of support from Hash (though I'm still using 8.5p+; I skipped the 9.x upgrade cycle). One reason I'm satisfied with it, bugs and all, is because it's cheap. I've paid more for a fancy dinner than I paid for A:M. On my PC, it works well enough, though I gave up on the Mac version. Maybe someday I'll be able to use it on my TiBook...

Since my commercial cg work is CAD and rapid protoyping related modelling and rendering, not character animation, I end up spending most of my paid cg hours in Rhino. I have much higher expectations of Rhino than I do of A:M--the company is bigger, I paid more for the product, and I depend on it to make a living.

Based on my own experience working for a similarly sized company in a niche market, making "demands" of Hash, Inc. is pointless. The problem may not be one of figuring out what will make the product better, but of how to prioritize a long list of things in a way that will keep the lights on and the bills paid. It may seem clear from the outside, but it's a different view from the inside. It's probably safe to assume that no one, Steve and Martin included, *wants* to drive customers away.

That said, each of us has to choose our tools based on how well they work at what we're trying to do. If A:M doesn't do what you need, it's up to you to find a tool that does. If you're making your living with CG (or trying to break into it), don't take any company's word for anything. Try them all, use what works best for you. This is a lot easier to do, even on a budget, than it used to be...


Amanda Walker

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by walasek
[B]Have we become that accustomed to crashes that we *actually* believe its our own fault:

Kevin Sanderson wrote: (fixing the spelling of my name)

That's great! But I should remind those of you who haven't bothered to take
the time to fix your own systems, that you should do that first. Just
recently saw a person post to this list a major crash after
installation...turned out it was his system. A new video card fixed his
system problem. Hopefully he's checking out the rest of his computer. A
woman at my work was experiencing major computer crashes and problems with
mainly Microsoft programs. I tweaked her system with the fixes on my website
http://www.ksanderson.com/amtips.html and her computer experience now is
very stable. I didn't dream these Windows tips up. They've been collected
mainly from reputable sources and proven many times to work. I bet the
majority of problems people have reported on this list could be remedied by
these fixes. Hey, gang, it's worth trying if you haven't. Many of us who
report A:M and general stability with older computers have done this and
rarely have problems.

Arthur Walasek responded:

I'm sorry, but that is bs. I am a programmer, and a damn good one.

I'm glad you feel that way Arthur. Your obj importer needs some work but it is quick and doesn't crash. The results aren't as smooth as using Howard Trickey's modified Xroad app to convert a quad obj to a quad dfx and importing into v8.5L, but what the hell. Since you're a programmer...maybe you need to hear from the real world where Windows and assorted hardware causes crashes.



If a program crashes, its the program's fault. Pretty much all the time. period. There is absolutely no reason for a crash. In any program. You can check return values when allocating memory, check and validate memory contents when accessing memory, check drivers, etc. IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

Oh, really. Wish more software companies hired you.



I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs... thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn't correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn't handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don't have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.


The user in question decided on his own to replace his video card for whatever reason. He could then load A:M. It worked for him.

I was re-iterating for the newbies on the list and maybe the not so newbies to please first check their systems out. It's a simple procedure that doesn't take very long. You have to admit the mail list is populated heavily by them as the same inane questions are repeated...some don't even know how to read as is quite obvious from time to time. Most of the folks in this forum are power users and probably never have to worry, though a very knowledgeable engineer friend of mine has quipped "High end just means it will crash faster."

I can not state on the Hash list that this crashes and that crashes. Why do I want to cause grief? If I find a problem, I send in a bug report. On my page of stability tips, I indicate that A:M can crash and if it's a repeatable bug, please let Hash know. Heck, even if it isn't repeatable, let 'em know. But don't go crying until you've made sure your system is stable.

Sure, great software should do what you suggest, Arthur. Even yours so I could get to the bottom of why it disfigures an obj file of mine. But I'll let you know right now that every piece of software I own save an aging SAWPlus has crashed for some crazy reason, with no prompts until I implemented the fixes I've detailed on my tips page.

I wouldn't be surprised that some of the Hash attitude is a holdover from the days when people refused to buy more memory, tried to get the program to work with a video card with 4 Meg of RAM and other crazy stuff. Jeff Paries told me stories about users that would curl your hair. Users trying to run the program with 32 meg of RAM on a Packard Bell with Windows 95. I remember people not wanting to upgrade from Windows 95. Then we got the reports that A:M was much more stable on Windows NT, then Windows 98SE, then Windows 2000 was even more stable, and the latest until some folks had problems was that XP was rock solid. Wouldn't that lead you to believe that many crashes are Windows inspired? I can tell you quite reliably that Windows is the bane of many help desks.

Windows is supposed to allow good multitasking, but that seldom is what happens. Things might change with the new P4 with hyper-threading, but we'll see.

I respect everyone's opinion on this forum. Yes, A:M should be more stable for those trying to do work. But you should also realize, many of us are not running into these problems. We are doing OK with what we are using. Don't put us down because we believe the software to be stable for us. It is stable for us. But, Raist pointed out a problem to me that causes a crash, and it is something I would never do. But I realize some of you might so your opinion is valid, of course, as it has always been.

I rarely use the new features because I'm hoping they'll get fixed by release time. More often than not, I never use them. Sometimes I'll see an example posted by someone and I'll go, "well that's not what I'm looking for." I'm often using the software lately for something else, to make a basic background for something, model a small object and most recently as an already paid for alternate to Canopus' "Imaginate". I wish I had more time to go gangbusters with the software. Generally, what I do works. But, don't get me wrong, I'm all for stability and I'm not letting Hash off the hook for that either.

[Hookflash]

Kevin: It just blows my mind that you think it's reasonable for a person to have to design their system to work with A:M, as opposed to the other way around. I think the stability of most systems can be rock solid if you:

1. Update your drivers.
2. Install the latest OS patches/service packs.
3. Be careful about what you run in the background.

But, to go so far as to buy a new video card (or any hardware) on a reasonably up-to-date system just to run A:M...!? Ridiculous.

[JoeW]

Originally posted by Nurb'd

I can list why if you would like. We can start with.................................................................

I think you just nailed the basic problem. Most of the AM crowd wants it easy. It is a pipe dream. You can not achieve high quality animation with a simple easy setup. Not going to happen at this point. If it was possible then it would be done already. You think a company chooses to make it hard? Animating a spline character in AM is a FAR cry from animating something like shrek. It is industry first from a company stand point.

People just do not want to put the effort in learning. To be blunt .. they are not here to hold our hand. They are here to sell a "tool" to professionals who put in the blood, sweat and tears. [/B]

You should really be aware of who you're talking to before you go calling someone "lazy" or "unprofessional".....

I'm really curious as to why you're here? If you're not an AM user, it seems like you should have something more important to do than troll.....

I'm not going to get into an argument over your view of the world. IMO, rigging in most packages could be drastically simplified - that does NOT mean that it would be any less powerful or extensible, it just means that rigging would be more intuitive and flexible. Interface design is one of the most ignored components of modern applications - it's usually left up to programmers to do it, and that's a mistake. I've seen implementations of some of AM's paradigm in several packages, and while they didn't add any additional functionality, they DID add complexity.

I'd suggest you read at least the first chapter of "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" by Alan Cooper - you'd get an idea what I was talking about.

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by jaymackey


Apparently, Arthur's post prompted you to write yours. Arthur was replying to some truly twisted reasoning on Kevin's part. Kevin's suggestion that we just start replacing video card's or motherboards to fix A:M, without any information from Hash as to which video cards or other hardware has been certified to run A:M (*snigger*) is just wrong. Does A:M's system requirements specify Nvidia only? Does Hash certify hardware for use with A:M?



Talk about twisted. Why can't you quote it accurately, Jay, and get the facts straight?

I was mentioning how someone had problems and found replacing his video card fixed the situation. And then I suggested that people at least try to make their own systems stable. I did not recommend changing video cards, motherboards or anything of the like. The tips are to help Windows get along with A:M. If you believe Windows is super stable and doesn't cause program crashes, then you are at odds with most of the help desk and computer geniuses I know (not being one myself, but I recognize when someone is telling a line of bull and it seems like most Texans I run into anymore are that way, including the wacko I have to work with Monday through Friday...is it in the water or inbred? ;-) )


How about the straw man argument that Kevin uses? He fixed a woman's computer so that it is more stable with MS applications. Yay! Did she then load A:M and run it crash-free? No? Then how does that show that the problems with A:M are due to generally unstable systems? What Kevin seems to be assuming is that most people have generally unstable systems, and that most problems in A:M would go away if they employed his remedies.


Well I guess you can't read either. They are tweaks to improve A:M's stability with Windows! If Windows is happy, A:M will be happier. Believe it or not, the tweaks work for many. Now nowhere do I say A:M is crash free. I only say it is pretty stable for me and some others. We are probably not working the program as hard as the pros with problems. But it's not right to convey that the program is crashing willy nilly for everyone, because it doesn't. It is, though, very capable of crashing as most programs are, and apparently more so for those who dig deeper.

I do assume most people have unstable systems. Every computer at work (most are Dells) have problems from time to time.
(I always worry now when I read that so and so has great tech support...why should you ever need it? I won't even write that about Hash now unless I just want to reassure someone to go get official help.) Everything I read indicates people all over have stability issues with their PCs and even Macs. I tend to believe that if you don't get a lemon PC, you are fortunate. Too bad there isn't a lemon law for those yet like there are for cars.

I would bet most newbies still have Auto Insert Notification on for their CD-ROM and it's also on by default for any ZipDrive. The woman at work no longer has a shaky mouse pointer after the ZipDrive Auto Insert Notification was turned off. Gee. The only change we made at that point and it made that kind of difference.
No more crashes on a simple click...no more freezing. Who would of thought! A hardware/Windows issue causing problems! I wonder how many little crashes that Hash can't duplicate are caused by that?

We then adjusted her Power Management Options and Screensaver kick-on time and tweaked her StartUp. Lo and behold, no more crashing every couple hours or every 15 minutes when she was trying to get a damn spreadsheet done. Or work on the website, or a dozen other tasks. Could it be that Power Management or the screensaver was causing the crashes? I think it's reasonable to think that it's possible. Especially since they coincided with the previously set times.

Now think back to the problems newbies have had on the list. The crashes are many times basic. The old saw was get more memory and a better video card. Well, these days, most newer PCs are quite reliable. But there's no guarantee that they are completely reliable. I've read about problems with AMD chips and having to get special patches so Windows would work, things tracing lack of stability to the chips in the motherboard. Flakey video card drivers.

Why do you think many companies resist upgrading these days? Besides the economy, it's because of the problems caused by hardware not functioning as it should, and Windows conflicts and crashes. Those of us who work day to day have to get these problems fixed. The tips I mentioned work for regular programs and help Windows stability in general. Why shouldn't it work for A:M. And if a more stable system, maybe we'll really be able to get decisive bug reports more often that will lead to fixes and better stability!

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Hookflash
Kevin: It just blows my mind that you think it's reasonable for a person to have to design their system to work with A:M, as opposed to the other way around. I think the stability of most systems can be rock solid if you:

1. Update your drivers.
2. Install the latest OS patches/service packs.
3. Be careful about what you run in the background.

But, to go so far as to buy a new video card (or any hardware) on a reasonably up-to-date system just to run A:M...!? Ridiculous.

I never said that. It was taken out of context and twisted around. I agree with your 1, 2 & 3. You'd see if you went to my webpage.

I would never suggest someone by a new video card because I can't recommend one. All I suggest are the tweaks to make Windows more stable which will in turn help make A:M more stable, except for its own bug caused crashes. People are quoting from a post on the mail list where you are not allowed to comment on crashes. In the current climate, I don't want cause trouble so I'll have to put up with any bull just so I have re-subscribe to get the latest news on updates. Some of us are not natural shit stirrers.

[giantkiller]

Looks like Martin sent Kevin in here to defend the company.
Too bad Mr Hash shot all his credibility with that letter.
I'm outta here, my time will be better spent elsewhere. I'm not listening to any more propaganda.
Actions speak louder than words.

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by giantkiller
Looks like Martin sent Kevin in here to defend the company.
Too bad Mr Hash shot all his credibility with that letter.
I'm outta here, my time will be better spent elsewhere. I'm not listening to any more propaganda.
Actions speak louder than words.

No, I've never met Martin Hash. I came over to check out the forum and I see me misquoted or taken out of context and trashed. If you believe I think A:M is crash free you're nuts. It is, though, pretty stable for me. My tips help that for me and some others. If you're too smart to check out whether Windows is causing some of the problems, fine. Some of the people on this forum are correct in many of their criticisms of Hash. But any thinking person would know the software isn't the only problem.

[artfan1]

Kevin wrote

I tend to believe that if you don't get a lemon PC, you are fortunate. Too bad there isn't a lemon law for those yet like there are for cars.



And for software too!

<grin>


artfan1

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
If you're too smart to check out whether Windows is causing some of the problems, fine. Some of the people on this forum are correct in many of their criticisms of Hash. But any thinking person would know the software isn't the only problem.

There are two sides to this coin. On the one hand, it's certainly true that Windows and device drivers can be a source of instability--anyone with a PC has experienced this.

On the other hand, software that works most stably on hand-picked or individually tweaked machines is fragile. A:M doesn't do anything magic that should require a cleaner system than anything else. Plenty of other software is memory intensive, does lots of file I/O, or puts the video driver through the wringer. Testing on a wide variety of machines, and avoiding things which trigger problems even though they "should" work is just part of being a Windows developer.

It's also one of the biggest challenges of being a small developer. They're too small to do internal testing on a broad range of machines, so they rely on external testing. This is good when it lets them find problems that don't occur in house. This is bad because a "public beta" means they're releasing untested software to an often unforgiving audience. Public betas work great for open source stuff (where no is paying for anything anyway) or games (where buzz is more important than reality). For commercial software, it can hurt business as much as it can help.

This is where a company with the resources of Alias|Wavefront or NewTek has an advantage. I respect the decision to keep A:M at a $200-$300 price point and keep the company small, but it does make it harder to deliver a tested, stable product, particularly running on Windows.

Amanda Walker

[Sil3]

Originally posted by Amanda
This is where a company with the resources of Alias|Wavefront or NewTek has an advantage. I respect the decision to keep A:M at a $200-$300 price point and keep the company small, but it does make it harder to deliver a tested, stable product, particularly running on Windows.

Amanda Walker

Take a look at PMG, the makers of Messiah, only 3 programmers (3D Artists themselfs), sure development is dam slow, but the prog is ROCK SOLID :bounce:

Sil3

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Sil3
Take a look at PMG, the makers of Messiah, only 3 programmers (3D Artists themselfs), sure development is dam slow, but the prog is ROCK SOLID :bounce:
Sil3

Sure, that's another way to address the tradeoff. Rhino & Flamingo are similar (though I think McNeel is a little bigger)--very slow development schedule, but very, very stable. Since they also cost 8x or more than A:M, they don't have to ship nearly as many boxes to generate the same cash flow.

Some people would pay $1500 for a copy of A:M that had the same degree of stability. Most of their current customer based would not. Since part of Hash's goal is to keep the price low, this means the tradeoffs happen in different places. Many small companies rely on frequent releases and inconsistent quality--it's not just Hash. Personally, I prefer higher-end tools, but that's because I have money to spend on them. I still respect their goal of building a 3D animation package that anyone can afford.


Amanda Walker

[EROMLIG]

I think one has to be very careful with the argument that its your system that are causing any of these problems. The system I use at home is a few years old and runs Lightwave without a hiccup, as well as all the Adobe products etc. The only application that nose dives on a regular basis is AM. Those of you who have used AM for any number of year no doubt remember the difficulty they have had with hardware.
The first of which, that I had to deal with, arose from the graphics card compatibility problems. The company anounced that the only cards they would reccomend for use with AM were from Oxygen. They later said that they supported no specific cards. They later made an attempt to implement dual proccesor support, that was such a complete falure, (stange and persistant renedering artifacts) that they abandoned that in no time. Hardware seems to be a problem for them.
What makes all the arguments Hash is putting forward regarding their product hard to beleive is when you look at their deceitful marketing strategies. Nowhere on their literature, site or at one of Greg Rostrami's demonstration will you ever hear the word subscription.
Yet that is what you are getting. From when you buy it till the end of that calender year. What if that version of the software doesn't work when next years comes out? You the buyer either fork over another 99 bucks or you go home and play with software that will never work and that the company will not fix.
And what happens if the next years version has other problems.
Cough up another 99 bucks buddy.
When you factor in how slow the renderer and modeler is, (when adding geometry to large models) how many work arounds and compromises one must go through to get the modeler and renderer to put out "world class" results and a lack of usable documentation...well enough said.

[Sil3]

A:M is cheap because it doesn´t work correctly, simple as that, dont think it is because the maker of it have pitty for us poor artist´s who would love to do 3D and have no money to get the so called PRO Aplications, they are in the business to make money, like eveyone else who starts a business. Even if A:M worked like they say in the Box, i doubt anyone would pay $1500 for it, it lacks features, you cant export from it (animation), you are stuck to work and make everything on it.

Even for $299, and if i was a new user venting into 3D, after reading all these threads, i wouldn´t buy it, and i advice no one to buy it, it´s cheap, but it doesn´t work, these kind of cheapness will become expensive later down the road, as soon as you start to try to push the software, you realise that it wont do what you want ( or it will take huge amounts of time and hacks to do it) and shortly after you start looking for another 3D prog, you wasted time and money on something that wasn´t ready but it was ok because it was cheap, i regret it, i had that experience.

Sil3

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Sil3
A:M is cheap because it doesn´t work correctly, simple as that,

Or it doesn't work well because it's cheap. It's a little hard to determine cause and effect.

Either way, $199 (which is the discount you can get pretty much for the asking) is a much lower barrier to entry than a product that costs four or five digits. Someone looking for a way to stick their toe in the CG water is simply not going to spend $1400 for Messiah Studio or $2K for Maya Complete, no matter how much better they may be.

You get what you pay for. If anyone thinks that they're getting the same stuff for 1/10 the cost, perhaps this expectation is not entirely the vendor's fault.

I still think that for $199, A:M is pretty impressive. Even if all it does is help someone get up to speed enough to figure out what will really do the job they need, that seems worthwhile. Look at the A:M veterans here who've moved on to other packages: A:M got them started. Could that have happened if they'd had to buy Maya a few years back (when it was a lot more expensive)? Seems unlikely.


Amanda Walker

[walasek]

I was going to keep quiet, and let the others defend me on the list, but I had to say something...

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
I'm glad you feel that way Arthur. Your obj importer needs some work but it is quick and doesn't crash. The results aren't as smooth as using Howard Trickey's modified Xroad app to convert a quad obj to a quad dfx and importing into v8.5L, but what the hell. Since you're a programmer...maybe you need to hear from the real world where Windows and assorted hardware causes crashes.

I realize that my OBJ importer/exporter needs some work, but here is the kicker - I gave it away free. I also did it, kinda, out of the goodness of my heart, thought it was something that the community needed. I'm not asking people to pay for it, cause in all honesty, if I did charge them, I would be in support hell. I'm glad Xroad works well. I use it too. By the way, I've worked at a major pc help desk, so I do know what causes crashes.

Oh, really. Wish more software companies hired you.
me too :)


Sure, great software should do what you suggest, Arthur. Even yours so I could get to the bottom of why it disfigures an obj file of mine.
Funny, I don't think I've gotten email from you with the problem...

I respect everyone's opinion on this forum. Yes, A:M should be more stable for those trying to do work. But you should also realize, many of us are not running into these problems. We are doing OK with what we are using. Don't put us down because we believe the software to be stable for us. It is stable for us.
Software is fairly stable for me too. Reproducable crashes I immediately mail off to Steve. You will see my name on the bug fix list, cause I do send em in... I don't think I ever "put you down" because I believe the software is stable for you. I just don't agree with your argument that hardware is *the* issue. Yes, it can be. But my system has been tested - hell it runs for months at a time (never shut down), and I *develop* on this machine. I *know* the drivers are the latest, interrupts are set correctly, unnecessary programs disable (I do have auto CD notification on - and I have no problems with it - perhaps its a conflict in your DMA).

I just don't like the attitude that I have to *fix* my system, or tweak it to get AM to work, when everything else in the world works. If I have to shutdown programs, or have more available memory, then they (Hash) are not checking available memory when allocating structures - simple as that.

[davef]

I think hash could make the price of AM $500 or $600 easy and still get the home user today. I mean what else are they going to use. TS is like $600 and have a huge user base and most of them are home user's. I would pay that for AM if they would just fix all the stuff we are talking about on here.

[Raist3d]

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
No, I've never met Martin Hash. I came over to check out the forum and I see me misquoted or taken out of context and trashed. If you believe I think A:M is crash free you're nuts. It is, though, pretty stable for me. My tips help that for me and some others. If you're too smart to check out whether Windows is causing some of the problems, fine. Some of the people on this forum are correct in many of their criticisms of Hash. But any thinking person would know the software isn't the only problem.

Kevin, the only problem I have with what you posted on the A:M list and to an extent with what you continue to post is that you seem to assume (meaning, you come off that way ) that the rest of us seeing these problems in many (most) cases is machine problems.

In the light of the glaring truth that A:M is one of the most unstable applications done on a PC, this comes out as somewhat insulting or denialist. This is why I asked you what specifically are you doing with A:M that it seems oh so stable for you.

So by the same token you ask people to assume A:M does run stable on your machine, by the same token don't assume that many or most do not have a stable hardware/windows configuration.

Personally, look around and see how many people are complaining about this yet mention other apps on their very own machine run fine. Sorry, but this is A:M, not the other way around.

- Raist

PS: I am not saying with this that your tips can't or don't help. They are sound and good to check out, just that this is not the real issue of what goes on with A:M, even if there are instances that more stability is achieved by following your tips.

[JoeW]

In regards to stability of the app, it depends a huge amount on how you use it. I have the opportunity to see how some of the best AM users in the world work, and for those who know where the "mines" are, AM can run for weeks without bombing (just as an aside, I STILL tend to get it to implode from time to time).

Some of the things I've learned from the likes of Jeff Bunker and Tyler Lybbert:

1) Try to not have more than one window open at a time -and if you must, maximize them so that they don't overlap - or if you have two open simultaneously, use the "Tile" commands under the Windows menu item to make sure they're using up the screen space.

2) Don't use the tabbed "Workbook" mode.

3) Save often, and it's a good idea to save versions. Tyler told me he can easily go through the alphabet in a day of working on a model (Bottle_a.mdl, Bottle_b.mdl, etc). I tend to save after every major change, and I don't see crashing nearly as much as I used to.

4) Use Undo with patience. Undo *used* to be an instant crash - in 10, it's actually pretty good - NOT like Cinema or LW, but still pretty dependable and useable. I still save versions, though....

5) One key is *patience* - let the software catch up to you, and if you make it through a huge copy/paste or Undo, save your model immediately. One thing I can thank AM for, is my vastly improved "Save Discipline" in all the software I use......

6) AM is a memory and CPU hog. Don't run it simultaneously with another memory hog - like Maya, Max, or Photoshop - *expecially* if you don't have a ton of memory (512 MB or more). I try not to run it with anything going in the background (except Winamp, maybe :)

7) Of course, make sure that your drivers are updated, etc, etc.

Joe W

[JoeW]

One more thing - the guys that get it to run pretty stably spend 90% of their time in wireframe mode - and don't leave background windows in solid shaded mode. They switch into solid shaded to check something - then pop right back into wireframe. Jeff tells me it's a habit he picked up a loooong time ago working in V4 and earlier...

Joe W

[degauss]

Originally posted by JoeW


I'm not going to get into an argument over your view of the world. IMO, rigging in most packages could be drastically simplified - that does NOT mean that it would be any less powerful or extensible, it just means that rigging would be more intuitive and flexible. Interface design is one of the most ignored components of modern applications - it's usually left up to programmers to do it, and that's a mistake.

To be fair, I've seen some reasonably good design from programmers (KDE/GNOME on Linux, for example), but I've seen the results of how some programmers can take the tools provided and use them in rather off-center and unexpected ways. K3D comes to mind. In some cases, the user is forced to participate in the programmatic logic, rather than working strictly within a paradigm that's easily recognized and understood. To be sure, K3D has some cool features, but I think it could really benefit from a greater focus on the user experience.

[Raist3d]

Originally posted by JoeW
In regards to stability of the app, it depends a huge amount on how you use it. I have the opportunity to see how some of the best AM users in the world work, and for those who know where the "mines" are, AM can run for weeks without bombing (just as an aside, I STILL tend to get it to implode from time to time).

Joe W

Joe, I can corroborate that saving often is one of the best workarounds to make A:M more stable.

I usually have found A:M more stable if I do two things:

* Limit the UNDO to 2-4 (yeah, sucks but...)
* Save often.. like every 10 minutes to a *different* project- as you very well mentioned as well.

I think for some reason save is doing something with the way A:M is using its memory so that crashes are more avoided.

I did not know about the "avoid workbook mode" and "overlapping windows" tip... I'll try those out.

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by walasek
I was going to keep quiet, and let the others defend me on the list, but I had to say something...



I realize that my OBJ importer/exporter needs some work, but here is the kicker - I gave it away free. I also did it, kinda, out of the goodness of my heart, thought it was something that the community needed. I'm not asking people to pay for it, cause in all honesty, if I did charge them, I would be in support hell. I'm glad Xroad works well. I use it too. By the way, I've worked at a major pc help desk, so I do know what causes crashes.

Good. Then maybe you know what the CBS/IBM help desk guys tell me about Windows! I do know you give the apps away free. I think that's great and I appreciate that very much along with others. That's why I hadn't bothered you about the problem. I was thinking of emailing you this weekend with the links to pictures and files, but then this jumped into my face. I never told anybody to get a new video card. Yet from your and Jay's post, that's what you basically tell everybody. All I was doing was telling the mail list that it was great that Hash was going to work on stability...but...people should check their systems first to see if that could be causing problems. I mentioned the guy who couldn't load A:M after loading a brand new copy. To my knowledge, nobody told him to buy a new video card. There were several of the regular suggestions of uninstall/reinstall and the like (which doesn't always work). Obviously, he felt he should for some reason, be it past issues or maybe he just wanted to justify getting a spiffy new video card. He installs it and solves his basic problem. Now he may be getting crashes, maybe not if he's not too deep into it. But my point was that Hash instability is not always the software. I couldn't say on the list that it crashes terribly for some folks. But many of do have a pretty stable existence with the software for what we do. And the tips due help keep Windows more stable and all the other crap that goes along with that.


Funny, I don't think I've gotten email from you with the problem...


I still am planning on it as it should be something you may want to see. It could be as simple as me missing a proper setting.


Software is fairly stable for me too. Reproducable crashes I immediately mail off to Steve. You will see my name on the bug fix list, cause I do send em in... I don't think I ever "put you down" because I believe the software is stable for you. I just don't agree with your argument that hardware is *the* issue. Yes, it can be. But my system has been tested - hell it runs for months at a time (never shut down), and I *develop* on this machine. I *know* the drivers are the latest, interrupts are set correctly, unnecessary programs disable (I do have auto CD notification on - and I have no problems with it - perhaps its a conflict in your DMA).

Well, I thought I made it clear earlier that the hardware issue is not what I think but I was writing in the middle of the night when I'm usually dead to the world. Yes, Hash has crash problems, as Raist and a couple of others have shown me with v9.51e crashes...detailed bug reports which I thought were excellently detailed, by the way. Much better than the normal "I did this ____ and it crashed." I want this stability issue to become something of a dead horse. I thought it was long dead since I wasn't having problems and I only skim the mail list due to the high noise level...so any others I was missing. Then it became a hot issue and I saw mostly newbies posting, so I think, oh they don't know to check drivers, etc. Then after I post my original tips, then I see Gilles imploding and go "oh crap!"


I just don't like the attitude that I have to *fix* my system, or tweak it to get AM to work, when everything else in the world works. If I have to shutdown programs, or have more available memory, then they (Hash) are not checking available memory when allocating structures - simple as that.

And most people don't like having to strip down how they work just because Windows and some PCs can't get along. It's very common in the regular work-a-day world.

The tips weren't meant for the pros. I should've made it clear it was simply for the beginners or people hitting a dead end in case they hadn't heard these before. I guess I assumed you guys already knew this stuff so you wouldn't give a hoot since there's not much new...most of the stuff has been in books and magazine articles since 1999. And besides, you would have better machines than regular folks like many of the newbies running into problems. But my past experience lo these many years of static has been that some people, especially newbies, forget or don't know to check the obvious. After that, it definitely becomes a Hash problem! I don't disagree there at all!!!

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Raist3d
I did not know about the "avoid workbook mode" and "overlapping windows" tip... I'll try those out. [/B]

Oh, that's a very old one. I didn't think that still caused problems. It did when it was originally put in. I don't use it because it eats up more screen. But I noticed other people do in their screen shots. So I figured it had been fixed but I just never bother with it.

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Raist3d
[B]Kevin, the only problem I have with what you posted on the A:M list and to an extent with what you continue to post is that you seem to assume (meaning, you come off that way ) that the rest of us seeing these problems in many (most) cases is machine problems.

I hear you, Raist. I was up very late last night...as I told you I usually get up around 4am so I guess I didn't make myself clear.
Mostly I was in fight mode from the attacks I was getting with stuff twisted around and I was pissed I was losing so much sleep over this.

Yes, Hash is buggy as can be as you showed me with the crash report and I reproduced it.

I do not assume the pros on this forum have PC/Windows issues. I assume the majority of newbies do. Just from the regular stuff I see posted when I do take time to read the mail list. Before I used these tips myself, I was running into crashes with lots of programs (Microsoft of course, Adobe, MP3 conversion programs, Pinnacle Studio), other than A:M. Those problems are mostly gone except for A:M when it is something I don't normally do like your example.



PS: I am not saying with this that your tips can't or don't help. They are sound and good to check out, just that this is not the real issue of what goes on with A:M, even if there are instances that more stability is achieved by following your tips.

Thanks, Raist. I'm glad you find them good as do some others who have emailed me.

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by JoeW
In regards to stability of the app, it depends a huge amount on how you use it. I have the opportunity to see how some of the best AM users in the world work, and for those who know where the "mines" are, AM can run for weeks without bombing (just as an aside, I STILL tend to get it to implode from time to time).

Some of the things I've learned from the likes of Jeff Bunker and Tyler Lybbert:



Wow, Joe...I never thought about it but those are habits I've had for years thanks to the workarounds discovered way back then.
Glad to know I'm in good company, though I wish I was even a smidge as talented as those folks!

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by davef
I think hash could make the price of AM $500 or $600 easy and still get the home user today. I mean what else are they going to use. TS is like $600 and have a huge user base and most of them are home user's. I would pay that for AM if they would just fix all the stuff we are talking about on here.

I wish it was still entry priced at $695 like it was back in v2. That was back in the days of more intelligent discussions on the old AOL and CompuServe message boards.

Not taking away from any discussions here, mind you....

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Amanda

I still think that for $199, A:M is pretty impressive. Even if all it does is help someone get up to speed enough to figure out what will really do the job they need, that seems worthwhile. Look at the A:M veterans here who've moved on to other packages: A:M got them started. Could that have happened if they'd had to buy Maya a few years back (when it was a lot more expensive)? Seems unlikely.



I agree. The potential is awesome and I think that's part of the reason there is such passion for it here where with other software, people would have completely given up and left. That's probably one of the reasons I've hung in with it. Of course there are those who just want to get their money's worth and I can't fault them. I can't fault those who've moved on to other packages as well.

[Kentaurus]

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
Arthur Walasek responded:


If a program crashes, its the program's fault. Pretty much all the time. period. There is absolutely no reason for a crash. In any program. You can check return values when allocating memory, check and validate memory contents when accessing memory, check drivers, etc. IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

Oh, really. Wish more software companies hired you.


And so do I! :thumbsup: (and I'm not ironic...)

According to most of the crash descriptions, A:M probably suffers from memory leaks. Knowing how to avoid memory leaks is indeed a noble art, unknown to but a few brave souls. A pity! however, since the art is as easy to adopt as is it noble.
Most software companies would benefit from thinking on this at the planning of a software project. When the program is already written it is anything but simple to correct it.

My own experience is from the defence industry and it’s needless to say that software instability is not even an option there…;)

The rumour has it that Microsoft products are more buggy than, for instance, Linux. I'd like to stress that this is nothing more than just a rumour. The number of users, finding bugs, constitutes the difference, rather.

:lightbulb Memory Handling Quick Start Tutorial:lightbulb

In c++ this is what to think about:
[list=1]
Never dynamically allocate new memory outside a class.
Always use a class to control the memory lifetime. If you thoroughly debug the memory allocation and deallocation in the constructor and destructor of the class, you will never have to worry about it again.
Do use containers (e.g. std::vector<>) from the standard library instead of using dynamic arrays
In general, avoid C-style programming in C++. Think OOP!
[/list=1]

Sincerely,
/K.T.

[Raist3d]

Originally posted by Kentaurus
Oh, really. Wish more software companies hired you.


In c++ this is what to think about:
[list=1]
Never dynamically allocate new memory outside a class.
Always use a class to control the memory lifetime. If you thoroughly debug the memory allocation and deallocation in the constructor and destructor of the class, you will never have to worry about it again.
Do use containers (e.g. std::vector<>) from the standard library instead of using dynamic arrays
In general, avoid C-style programming in C++. Think OOP!
[/list=1]

Sincerely,
/K.T. [/QUOTE]

What are your thoughts on dealing with memory ownership and instances of classes? (i.e. who owns a collection of objects and determines their death). What about objects that need to be referenced by more than one due to memory savings.. use a smart ptr? Any techniques for avoiding "dangling" smart_ptrs? (i.e. someone is still referencing those instances so instead of going away, they hang around creating a "java memory leak")

- Raist

PS: I tried to e-mail you directly but apparently your profile settings don't allow so. You can e-mail me at:

raist3d@hotmail.com

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
I agree. The potential is awesome and I think that's part of the reason there is such passion for it here where with other software, people would have completely given up and left.

Actually, i don't think the potential is awesome. i think that the potential is reasonably good, but that it's not going to ever be a serious production tool.

A:M is a great intro/hobby product, at a great price point. But it's not a competitor to Maya or Messiah. Not because of features--A:M has never been short on features. Not because of customer loyalty--A:M has never been short of that, and even many detractors sound more like jilted lovers than enemies ;-). Rather, A:M is limited by the bandwidth and resources of the organization that develops it.


Amanda Walker

[londarhawk]

I wish I had read this thread before I had shelled out the money for AM. I can't afford the expensive programs, so I was delighted to find AM for only $300. I've had quite a few problems with it. Like an uninformed newbie I sent an email to Hash to ask about the fact that I had just bought version 9.5 in December and a new version came out in January. I felt a little cheated. I wanted to know if the update posted on their web site was a true update or if I had to buy the update. I never got an answer!:thumbsdow

Now I read about all of the trouble others are having an I don't feel like a loner any more. I do hope that they get themselves straightened out. Us poor people need to have our fun too.

L. Hawk

[Squeakypics]

Dont feel too bad. As you bought in December you should actually have bought AM2003. You should have a CD should have a little Gnome sniffing a flower on it.
On that CD is V95 but it allows you to download V10, which by all accounts is much better than 9.5
Just head on over to:

http://www.hash.com/support/updates.asp

The "manual" you recieved is for the older version as there is no v10 one. (Don't get me started about that!)

[londarhawk]

Thanks for the info. I figured that much out on my own. (By trial and error! No thanks to Hash.) My gripe is I got no response from Hash.

I also have AIST's Move 3D. (A slightly cut down verson of Realsoft 3D) I got it for $99 They are having a sale, if you buy one of their other products. I had a question for them and got a response from them the next day.

If Hash is so unresponsive to their customers it's a wonder they have been going for as long as they have. :surprised

L. Hawk

[londarhawk]

P.S. You have to call AIST on their order phone line to get the sale price. The number is 1-866-924-2678 Ext. 101 (This is the extention for Keith, who was very helpful and a great guy.

L.H.

[artfan1]

Originally posted by Squeakypics
Dont feel too bad. As you bought in December you should actually have bought AM2003. You should have a CD should have a little Gnome sniffing a flower on it.
On that CD is V95 but it allows you to download V10, which by all accounts is much better than 9.5


Yes, he is right. If you got the 2003 disc you should be good for a bunch of updates for the rest of this year. You could have been as unlucky as some of us who bought a few months earlier and are stuck out in the cold with v9.5, no manual and no chance of a working program.

Yes I know, "let it go", but I can't!


artfan1

[Squeakypics]

Lets hope that Hash is reading this and sees how ripped off we all feel.

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Squeakypics
Lets hope that Hash is reading this and sees how ripped off we all feel.

Sigh. But we don't all feel ripped off. I've gotten more than my money's worth out of A:M. Heck, it's worth a couple hundred bucks just as a texture tool.


Amanda Walker

[londarhawk]

Don't get me wrong. I like the program a lot. I was just P.O.ed
at the lack of tech support.

The program is great for a home user like me. The main trouble I have with crashing is trying to use third party plugins.

L Hawk

[artfan1]

Originally posted by Amanda
Sigh. But we don't all feel ripped off. I've gotten more than my money's worth out of A:M. Heck, it's worth a couple hundred bucks just as a texture tool.


Amanda Walker



What version did you buy? Do you have v9.5 only? What platform do you run it on? I paid $300, not $200 and it won't run on my Mac. My Mac is a newer model. I am sure there are exceptions but for me, I am not too happy.

artfan1

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Amanda


A:M is a great intro/hobby product, at a great price point. But it's not a competitor to Maya or Messiah. Not because of features--A:M has never been short on features. Not because of customer loyalty--A:M has never been short of that, and even many detractors sound more like jilted lovers than enemies ;-).

Amanda Walker

Amanda, that's pretty funny!

OK, I'll notch it down from awesome. :)

[Amanda]

Originally posted by artfan1
What version did you buy? Do you have v9.5 only? What platform do you run it on?

I bought 2000 for $199 and a 3-machine NetRender license for 2001 for $150. I'm currently using v8.5p+. 9.0 looked promising, but the first rev after a major rewrite is always risky, so I didn't bother with 9.x. I am getting ready to upgrade my NetRender license to 2003, though.

I use it on a PC, but I was encouraged to see a MacOS X version up and limping at MacWorld. I'm pretty platform-agnostic, though I'd enjoy being able to run A:M on my PowerBook.


Amanda Walker

[Squeakypics]

Don't get me wrong. I love AM but when I buy any piece of software I expect to get something that works as advertised and with a halfway decent manual from it's makers telling me how to make it go whether it is $30 or $3000.

[artfan1]

Originally posted by Amanda
I bought 2000 for $199 and a 3-machine NetRender license for 2001 for $150. I'm currently using v8.5p+. 9.0 looked promising, but the first rev after a major rewrite is always risky, so I didn't bother with 9.x. I am getting ready to upgrade my NetRender license to 2003, though.

I use it on a PC, but I was encouraged to see a MacOS X version up and limping at MacWorld. I'm pretty platform-agnostic, though I'd enjoy being able to run A:M on my PowerBook.


Amanda Walker

Thanks for the answer. This proves my point a little more too. The "exception" I was refering to earlier was v8.5. It seems that most that say they are happy are still using the old 8.5. A few have mentioned that v10 is better. But, the reason I feel ripped off is because I started with the 2002 disc and it never worked. Now, I must pay another $99 + $10 shipping to see if v10 might work. And, I have moved over to OSX so I would have to run it in Classic which I hear is slow. If the 2003 disc was already OSX I would pay the $99 now just for that. It would be fare then. But to pay to see if v10 might work, and maybe someday, OSX will be out. I am guessing that about December, OSX will come out and I will then have to pay another $99 + $10 shipping to get the 2004 disc and this will start all over again. OSX is what, a couple years old now?

Ok, I am going to go listen to some Pink Floyd and calm down now.

artfan1

[artfan1]

Originally posted by Amanda
I bought 2000 for $199 and a 3-machine NetRender license for 2001 for $150. I'm currently using v8.5p+. 9.0 looked promising, but the first rev after a major rewrite is always risky, so I didn't bother with 9.x. I am getting ready to upgrade my NetRender license to 2003, though.

I use it on a PC, but I was encouraged to see a MacOS X version up and limping at MacWorld. I'm pretty platform-agnostic, though I'd enjoy being able to run A:M on my PowerBook.


Amanda Walker

Thanks for the answer. This proves my point a little more too. The "exception" I was refering to earlier was v8.5. It seems that most that say they are happy are still using the old 8.5. A few have mentioned that v10 is better. But, the reason I feel ripped off is because I started with the 2002 disc and it never worked. Now, I must pay another $99 + $10 shipping to see if v10 might work. And, I have moved over to OSX so I would have to run it in Classic which I hear is slow. If the 2003 disc was already OSX I would pay the $99 now just for that. It would be fare then. But to pay to see if v10 might work, and maybe someday, OSX will be out. I am guessing that about December, OSX will come out and I will then have to pay another $99 + $10 shipping to get the 2004 disc and this will start all over again. OSX is what, a couple years old now?

Ok, I am going to go listen to some Pink Floyd and calm down now.

artfan1

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Squeakypics
Don't get me wrong. I love AM but when I buy any piece of software I expect to get something that works as advertised and with a halfway decent manual from it's makers telling me how to make it go whether it is $30 or $3000.

I must just be more cynical, then. After all, even Microsoft can't make software that works as advertised with a decent manual. In my experience, that's the exception, not the rule.

But as long as we're using that as a yardstick...so far the only 3D packages I've found that really work as advertised with a good UI and manual are Rhino and Lightscape. They're modeling & rendering only, though (in Lightscape's case, just rendering), no (real) animation features. But for what they do, they wipe the floor with everything else on the market.

Arguably, they are closer to CAD tools than to art tools.


Amanda Walker

[Kevin Sanderson]

Originally posted by Amanda
I must just be more cynical, then. After all, even Microsoft can't make software that works as advertised with a decent manual. In my experience, that's the exception, not the rule.


Amanda Walker

For me the only two programs I've bought since 1994 that worked completely as advertised, came with complete manuals and have never crashed are SAW Plus, a now defunct but wonderful multitrack/audio editing program and Audio Tracks Professional, a neat little midi music generator. I always kick myself for not buying the extra style packs for that program but I was out of work then. The small company that designed that program was swallowed up by Microsoft. Oh, well. Maybe the extra style packs will turn up on e-bay someday. All the graphics programs (from Adobe, Fractal Design, Meta Creations, etc.) have required more books and/or tutorial tapes/CDs. And those have all crashed at one point or another.

The only completely pro-program I've worked with that had a complete and very easy to understand manual had dedicated hardware...the AKG (later Orban) DSE-7000 digital audio workstation designed for radio station use. But it did crash occasionally...in its early versions.

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by Kevin Sanderson
For me the only two programs I've bought since 1994 that worked completely as advertised, came with complete manuals and have never crashed are SAW Plus, a now defunct but wonderful multitrack/audio editing program and Audio Tracks Professional, a neat little midi music generator. I always kick myself for not buying the extra style packs for that program but I was out of work then. The small company that designed that program was swallowed up by Microsoft. Oh, well. Maybe the extra style packs will turn up on e-bay someday. All the graphics programs (from Adobe, Fractal Design, Meta Creations, etc.) have required more books and/or tutorial tapes/CDs. And those have all crashed at one point or another.

The only completely pro-program I've worked with that had a complete and very easy to understand manual had dedicated hardware...the AKG (later Orban) DSE-7000 digital audio workstation designed for radio station use. But it did crash occasionally...in its early versions.
Hi,Amanda
you are right
there is very few programms with real good manuals
But, I think, look at with 3DS Maxs, LW,C4D, or blender and wings(totaly free)
have all printed manuals and pdf or html option

they all have manuals that I CANLEARN A LOT
AM has NO MANUALS at all( that what is bundled is company's dvertising pamflet )

IT is a big differences
I don't need 10 000 pages as maya or so
but please I don't know what is in program at all
I have to be 16 hours on-line to ask soem damn trivial question as where is button for visibilitey
DAMN

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Ben Lumumba
AM has NO MANUALS at all( that what is bundled is company's dvertising pamflet )


Hmm. Well, I haven't seen a 2003 CD yet, but for 2000, 2001, and 2002, there were manuals on the CD (and I just checked--they're still on the Hash FTP site, free for anyone to download)...

They're not the world's greatest manuals, but they aren't bad.


Amanda Walker

[Bugle]

Well, I was wondering if I should upgrade this year (I'm still on 8.0 courtesy of the paper envelope the 8.5 upgrade CD was sent in :) )
But reading that Egginton has given up on hash pretty much put the boot down on that notion.

I'll share my Sappington annecdotes with youse some other time, I'm off to bed now... :)

[Norbert]

WOW! I can't believe it. People are STILL having to cringe when they use the 'undo' button in A:M.

Makes me glad I gave up on this program, almost 2 years ago. :thumbsdow

[Kaiser_Sose]

Cant you peole dispute the charges

I would dispute them so fast it would not be funny ... believe me, your credit card company does not want to loos your business

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by Bugle
Well, I was wondering if I should upgrade this year (I'm still on 8.0 courtesy of the paper envelope the 8.5 upgrade CD was sent in :) )
But reading that Egginton has given up on hash pretty much put the boot down on that notion.

I'll share my Sappington annecdotes with youse some other time, I'm off to bed now... :)

What a anocdote ,please tell me,plase
okay
I'll be good user:)
I'l send A appropriate post
just tell me
okay

[Bugle]

umm, I didn't mean to leave a "narrative hook", like I said I was tired :)

It's not so interesting really. Back in the day, I entered the monthly Hash image contest, and there was a participant who used to "recreate" images using a lot of 2D textures to add detail. The technique and result was uncomfortably close to outright plagiarism, but when I notified Steve he pooh-pooed the notion. I replied a bit passionately about the subject and he gave me the "I don't appreciate your comments" line.

To sum it up, I backed off, decided never to go near the hash contest and privately decided that the artist wasn't doing himself any favours with his method and hash was only giving itself bad publicity with obviously faked shots. It was with some satisfaction that I saw about a year later some other person spill the beans and create a huge ruckus on the list. :)

When I got the cracked upgrade CD I was afraid I'd get hit for the full A:M price import tax when receiving the fedex package, Steve did offer to mark the stated value of the package as low as possible, which was nice of him. But frankly, I was pissed off at receiving a "free midyear upgrade" with a broken CD and I didn't trust him to remember to make the special arrangements to my package, so I decided to take a few years off upgrading. I was thinking of coming back this year, but this thread has put a serious damper on that idea ... I still might though.

[Ben Lumumba]

Originally posted by Bugle
umm, I didn't mean to leave a "narrative hook", like I said I was tired :)

It's not so interesting really. Back in the day, I entered the monthly Hash image contest, and there was a participant who used to "recreate" images using a lot of 2D textures to add detail. The technique and result was uncomfortably close to outright plagiarism, but when I notified Steve he pooh-pooed the notion. I replied a bit passionately about the subject and he gave me the "I don't appreciate your comments" line.

To sum it up, I backed off, decided never to go near the hash contest and privately decided that the artist wasn't doing himself any favours with his method and hash was only giving itself bad publicity with obviously faked shots. It was with some satisfaction that I saw about a year later some other person spill the beans and create a huge ruckus on the list. :)

When I got the cracked upgrade CD I was afraid I'd get hit for the full A:M price import tax when receiving the fedex package, Steve did offer to mark the stated value of the package as low as possible, which was nice of him. But frankly, I was pissed off at receiving a "free midyear upgrade" with a broken CD and I didn't trust him to remember to make the special arrangements to my package, so I decided to take a few years off upgrading. I was thinking of coming back this year, but this thread has put a serious damper on that idea ... I still might though.


Huuu I got it .....

tipicaly Steve ...report a bug and when we reproduce it
everything will be okay

BTW are you profy in 3d industry?
Any opinion about Electric Image Universe as substitute for AM
I go away frmo AM definitely not worth
http://www.electricimage.com
http://dvgnew.padd.com/index.php

[My Fault]

Originally posted by Bugle
When I got the cracked upgrade CD I was afraid I'd get hit for the full A:M price import tax when receiving the fedex package, Steve did offer to mark the stated value of the package as low as possible, which was nice of him. But frankly, I was pissed off at receiving a "free midyear upgrade" with a broken CD and I didn't trust him to remember to make the special arrangements to my package, so I decided to take a few years off upgrading. I was thinking of coming back this year, but this thread has put a serious damper on that idea ... I still might though.

Wow, how dare Steve be nice and offer to help you out like that. And that he wasn't personally responsible for the mail people that broke your CD...for shame!!! Truly this is a devastating indictment on Steve. Are you feeling my sarcasm here?

So when you told him how you wanted the package to be sent, what did he say? When you got the broken CD and you told him what was wrong, what did he say?

Personally I wouldn't let something this minor keep me from upgrading, but I'm probably a bit more bullheaded.... well at least that's what my wife says :p

[Bugle]

I did appreciate the offer, but at this point I was already kicked off the list for some comment I cannot remember, plus my previous interaction which had left a very bad aftertaste. And lets not forget that this CD mailing was an initiative Hash undertook for reasons not directly related to program functionality - The new CD had a different copy protection mechanism they wanted to put in place immediately.

So they mailed a reduced percentage of their users a free CD, in a paper envelope. International. Blaming postal workers for the result is like blaming the truck driver that runs you over when you decide to dance in the middle of the highway. I was not the only one with a broken CD, by a lot. And then they decided it was too expensive and started charging fedex to whoever wanted it.

The way I see it, the created the need for a new CD-key, they should make sure the transition is smooth for registered customers. And if they market to penny-pinching tightwads like me, they shouldn't ask us for unexpected expenses.

Anyway, 8.0 hardly ever crashes for me, and it looks like I made a good decision avoiding 9.0. And there just doesn't seem to be any overpowering reason to upgrade yet. I guess I'll start saving for Maya :)

[runejw]

Most of you guys being thrown off the list are really LUCKY...

I was never allowed ON the list, because I mailed Steve and the folks some bug-reports and views on their bugfix-policy.

After that I assume Steve did a cursory judgment that I would write something negative on the list, and simply did not allow me on the list.

So, not only are they being iron-fisted, they also practice pre-judgment like in the "Minority Report" ("we know you will make a crime... so we stop it before it occurs... and punish you too..." - duh... :shame: )


Cheers,
Rune

[pabitel]

I was actually thrown off the list before I ever even made a posting. I still don't know why. My e-mails were simply unreturned. However, I think the mailing list search engine is probably better. You can search for your problem -- odds are you aren't the first -- without be inudated with all the noise common on every list.

[gra4mac]

I remeber reading in Martin's Minutes after the last Siggraph. They all went to a resturaunt that specialized in bad service, surly servers, and food thowing encouraged. Martin said they had a good time, except for Ken who left in disgust. This makes sense, because the Hash customer relatoins policy is just like the resturaunt's. This picture is starting to make sense in a twisted sort of way.

Cheers, Graham

[Paul L. Ming]

Hiya.

All this talk kinda got me thinking. I was saying to myself "What a pice of sh*% software!". Then it hit me. The only real reason why the software 'sucks', is because of who's making it. It's like seeing a bright, quick witted, personable child...who has an abusive father and crack whore mother. You think, "Aww. That kid has such potential!". But you know the old saying..."You can't choose your parents".

I'm thinking of AM that way. It has such potential. I started using AM with AM98 (started with trueSpace2; AM was my second app). If AM had been in the hands of a company like Pixologic, or even Avid or Newtek...I'm betting AM would be a serious contender for the 'mid price' range (it would probably be about $750) right now. It would likely be quite stable, and "play well with others". But, AM is owned by Hash. And Hash is like the abusive father; holding AM back. Sad, really.

[My Fault]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming
If AM had been in the hands of a company like Pixologic,

Yeah, if Pixologic were making AM the updates would always come out 7 times later then what they say and the interface would be so bass-ackwards when you clicked on a bone it would bring up the material editor. On second thought, maybe Pixologic wouldn't be sucha good choice..... :drool:

[dfaris]

Originally posted by My Fault
Yeah, if Pixologic were making AM the updates would always come out 7 times later then what they say and the interface would be so bass-ackwards when you clicked on a bone it would bring up the material editor. On second thought, maybe Pixologic wouldn't be sucha good choice..... :drool:

My Fault,

I dont know what your talking about Pixologic has always done a great job with thier software. If your talking about the 1.55 release its not really an update to 1.5 but more of a new version with lots of extra features, in my mind updates are put out to fix bugs not add features. Sure it took longer then they said it would be you still have a rock solid app, I have not got a crash with ZB since I have owned it back at version 1.23.

Pixologic listens to the users and you can post what ever you want on the forum they are a great bunch of folks. Just because you wait an extra 6 months for 1.55 makes them a bad company? If that what you belive then I dont think you will be happy with any company. They could have said nothing about 1.55 or shown no previews of what they are working on and just put it out 6 months later and you would have thought it was great.

Come on man Pixologic is one of the best companies out there hands down.

[My Fault]

I would consider Pixologic more of a wash, not bad, not good. Putting out a demo with features that real users didn't have...not good. Always taking longer then they say to release updates (many, many times in the past)... not good. Worst interface in an app since the beginning of history.... not good (personal opinion of course).

But hey, if they make you happy, that's great for you, just don't think that everyone thinks that everyone agrees with you on that, cuz they don't. Kind of like Hash, some people love them, some people hate them. Don't take it personal. :thumbsup:

[dfaris]

I think LW has the rep of the worst interface ever. ZB's inteface makes perfict sence once you understand how it works. There is a learning curve coming from a standard modeling app I do agree with that.

The demo thing I do agree with too but it was only a week or so from the demo release till the full update came out so not bad.

Plus they treat the users right and that goes a long way and the app is solid so i'll give them a break on the release.

I'm not taking it personal just trying to understand where your coming from.

[degauss]

Originally posted by dfaris
[B]I think LW has the rep of the worst interface ever. ZB's inteface makes perfict sence once you understand how it works.


While I agree that some learning is essential with any piece of software, the hallmark of a well-designed interface is one that is, to the maximum extent possible, self-evident. For me, it's not so much whether it 'makes sense' after I learn it, it's what kinds of mental gymnastics I have to endure in order to understand the reasoning behind it.

[HellBorn]

If any of you are web designers you probably know that what you should do is what everybody else does. Yeah .. I know it sounds boring and it is. Heck you have all those ideas and the tools and you actually have to accept that people visiting you site not are the least interested in figuring out how your cool interface works and spending any time on learning how to navigate it.

It's a bit of the same with applications. You do however have more than 30 seconds, your boss might say take it or leave or it's the only one you can afford.

I wanted to buy a 'world' renderer a while ago and evaluated Bryce and Vue. Bryce did not even stand a chance. I sat down with the apps and tried to do something with them.

By the time I was trowing out great renders with Vue, importing models, applying materials, creating procedurals without even reading the manual i still was at the 'render a sphere level' in Bryce having to look in the manual even for simple interface stuff.

The only thing that could have saved Bryce after that was if it would have managed to do something that Vue could not. But as it could not I bought Vue. I also save almost 50% of my money on that.

I also bought ZBrush(1.23) but I hated the 'none standard interface', the totally unreadable typface, bad windows integration and the license system so I returned the product and got a refound.

When I buy a computer product I don't want to have to fight and waist time on learning the interface unless it's absolutely nessesary.

Well just my $0.02435 incase anyone cares..... ;)

[pabitel]

If you think Hash is unique in trying to supress free speech -- take a look at the LightWave forum here on cgtalk, where they are actually censoring threads. If I'm not mistaken, the moderator actually works at NewTek. Hell, these guys make Steve look like Thomas Jefferson.

Thank God for this forum and the super cool moderator we have.

[Wegg]

I have sensored a few things. Mainly just attacks people launch on each other. Makes me feel like crap though. I mean. . . we all sit around bashing on one thing. . . and that means we can't bash on each other?

Kinda hard to know what to do. . .

[Nonproductive]

without dragging this thread off topic...

Did I miss something in the LW forum, pabitel?

Leigh deleted two threads that started as speculation about LW8 - a topic that has been beat to death over there, and one which pisses a lot of people off - and you say she's worse then Steve?! I would hardly call that censorship or even an attempt to suppress free speech.

And for the record, as far as I know she does not work for Newtek.

Wegg - feel free to delete this post (if it's possible?) - my intention is not to drag this into the mud. I just find it a bit of an unjust exageration unless I missed something over there recently.

[johnathan]

as one of the censored :) i'd say that it's being done only when absolutely necessary... when the thread becomes both disruptive and irrelevant to the topic at hand: the good and *bad* aspects of life with animation: master.

i've got no complants. it's light-years from the one-sided treatment on the animaster list.

-jon

[leigh]

Originally posted by pabitel
If you think Hash is unique in trying to supress free speech -- take a look at the LightWave forum here on cgtalk, where they are actually censoring threads. If I'm not mistaken, the moderator actually works at NewTek. Hell, these guys make Steve look like Thomas Jefferson.

Yes, one of the moderators does work for NewTek.

However, I think your accusation is completely unfounded. We are all SICK TO DEATH of that topic that I (not William) removed. I wouldn't have even removed it, since I started ignoring those threads a long time ago, but I received a few complaints about it from users (not NewTek employees), so I removed it.

Thank God for this forum and the super cool moderator we have.

Well, the moderator here certainly has better manners than you.

I am highly insulted by your RUDE, IGNORANT, and STUPID comment about my actions being inspired by Apartheid regime of my countrys past. You obviously know nothing about the atrocities of that era.
I think that was a disgusting comment to make.

We have a system on this forum of removing threads that we receive complaints about, and if you don't like that, then don't come here.

It's not like we are just removing any ones that we don't like or don't agree with (like the old Hash list), we are removing the ones that become troublesome.

You obviously have no idea about how a forum is run, or about South African history, for that matter, since you seem to be able to mention that shameful era with such casualness.

I really think you need to learn some manners and courtesy.

[UserDelta]

often threads are removed by the request of the thread starter as well as others. leigh is a very cool mod, ask anybody there, and she does not work for newtek.

[My Fault]

Originally posted by pabitel
If you think Hash is unique in trying to supress free speech -- take a look at the LightWave forum here on cgtalk, where they are actually censoring threads. If I'm not mistaken, the moderator actually works at NewTek. Hell, these guys make Steve look like Thomas Jefferson.

Thank God for this forum and the super cool moderator we have.

Wow, I can't believe you actually made an "Apartheid" crack to Leigh on the LW forum. You need to apologize right now or get the heck outta here. Absolutely pathetic!

:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

[uncommongrafx]

Hey guy,
Looks like you raised a stink. The thread has been put back on the forum so you can look at it.
Of course, we all know we'll never see the name you used for that attack again, as you will undoubtedly re-registered under a less embarrassing handle.
But YOU ought to be quite embarrassed and shamed.
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

[pabitel]

Originally posted by My Fault
Wow, I can't believe you actually made an "Apartheid" crack to Leigh on the LW forum. You need to apologize right now or get the heck outta here. Absolutely pathetic!

:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

I better get the heck outta here. Right now.

[My Fault]

Originally posted by pabitel
I better get the heck outta here. Right now.

Not a surprise, you don't strike me as being man enough to apologize.

[runejw]

Pabitel wrote: I better get the heck outta here. Right now.

We do not argue with you this time...

While it is easy to see red (http://www.katthult.no/filmsnurter/Iseered.rm), let us instead cool down with some good
music (http://www.rounder.com/feature/akus/music.asp) or whatever.

Let's give the man the benefit of doubt; that he really didn't think too much about what he wrote...

Stay cool. Stay friendly.


Cheers,
Rune

[koon69]

Did you guys see what was posted on the other thread about netrender? Someguy got an email from Steve who said something about pointsampler?

{{However, there are times when Multipass is beneficial, even necessary (DOF, Motion Blur, multi-light rigs) for those reasons, there will be a new "pointsampler" renderer in 10.5 that will include Multipass- it's important to note, that this will be a TRUE multipass renderer, not a hybird like at has been in the past}}

Cool.

[degauss]

Originally posted by koon69
Did you guys see what was posted on the other thread about netrender? Someguy got an email from Steve who said something about pointsampler?

{{However, there are times when Multipass is beneficial, even necessary (DOF, Motion Blur, multi-light rigs) for those reasons, there will be a new "pointsampler" renderer in 10.5 that will include Multipass- it's important to note, that this will be a TRUE multipass renderer, not a hybird like at has been in the past}}

Cool.


Maybe...but I'm going to give my spine a little exercise as I take advantage of my right as a consumer to conduct any future business with a company that values its customers.

[Dr Phong Shader]

AM wasn't the first 3d app I started using. So I luckily didn't feel that I had too much invested in it in order to dump it.
The amazing work showcased prompted me to buy it along with the tutorial videos and books. It didn't take long to figure out it would be an uphill battle with AM. I wouldn't be suprised if the guy I sold it to ended up passing it on to some other guy to deal with.

We have seats of several of the big apps - Maya, Lightwave, Cinema4D, and smaller ones like TrueSpace, Nendo and Milkshape3d (for real-time content). Even a couple of simplistic ones like Amorphium and Bryce. None of them were as fun, as an artist, to work with than AM (except Nendo). But AM would crash too often during modeling, and I soon got discouraged and didn't get too far. I didn't stick with it long enough to figure out the nuances of getting surface creases ironed out. Never got around to animating much. Plus all of the negativity and the seemingly hostile attitude Hash has toward it's userbase made the idea of dumping it easier.

I can sympathize for those that stuck with it and to proselytize the great things about AM but ultimately got burned. But I think it just shows the amazing talent of those artists in spite of the tools they were working with.

As it stands, there is no one particular app that I really had an affinity too except Nendo, but Nendo is strictly a modeler and not a full blown 3d app. I was offered student pricing (even though I'm not a student) for a full seat of Mirai a few years ago. I'm glad I held off getting it at the time as they've since been bought out by another company. And Mirai and Nendo seem to be stuck in limbo.

Wings3D has impressed me the most from what it has turned into. Amazing dedication in a developer. And to think it is free...amazing. Bjorn is has created a truly fantastic offering. I do all of my modeling in Wings now.

I'm having fun using Blender. It still has a lot of shortcomings, and definitely has that 'in-house tool' grittiness to it. But development is being fueled by passionate developers. And it will only become a better app over time.

Open Source is allowing everyone access to some really cool tools created by some really talented programmers. I think most, like myself, don't work in a tools vacuum and have to shuffle content between apps. And proprietary apps that don't play well with others is ultimately doomed to fail at some level sooner or later.

[Bertha Big]

Interesting thread ! How is the situation today ? How many 'gurus' that were banned one year ago are still here and support A:M actively ? What happened to Mr Cosman and Commiekeebler ? How does Hash treat their community today ? Do the problems that caused the riots still exist ?

[John Keates]

Quote "bertha big"
"Interesting thread ! How is the situation today ? How many 'gurus' that were banned one year ago are still here and support A:M actively ? What happened to Mr Cosman and Commiekeebler ? How does Hash treat their community today ? Do the problems that caused the riots still exist ?"

I was one of the people chucked off that old list and I am still using the program and plan to make a kick-ass short with it.

Wegg is the owner of the studio that Cossman and such were in and he is the moderator of this forum. He will be using AM on a small project soon.

Commiekeebler was given a free upgrade to v10 and on his website says that all is forgiven. Allthough I don't know what he is doing now.

Stability is much improved and the code base hasn't changed for a long time (compared to how it has in the past) so stabilty is getting better and the programmers have more time for adding new features rather than fixing bugs.

The OSX port has been released and is getting fixed up pretty well by the looks of it (I don't have a mac so I don't really know).

Creasing issues are basically fixed.

The renderer has improved.

There is a new AM forum where people can discuss bugs openly with frequent input from the programmers.

The hair features have been much improved and they are working on improving the other areas where AM fell short.

All in all, I think that Hash have done an admirable job in turning things around and should be applauded.

[Wegg]

Agreed. Well everything but the stability part. I dunno why but I seem to have a talent for crashing AM. . . and all I'm doing is modeling. It isn't ANYWHERE near what it used to be probably once every 3 hours of intense constant modeling. About the same level as Lightwave 8.

Their whole approach to their user base has COMPLETELY turned around. It is a whole new company as far as that is concerned.

[pequod]

I feel there's more of a partnership relationship between user and Hash now.
You can often talk (email in my case) directly with a programmer to sort out a feature in the software.
For example, if you read some of the threads here, John Keates and Joe Williamsen have by sending bug reports and feature requests helped make the new 'dynamic constraints' truly impressive.
The big problems with A:M in the past where, lumpy models, poor renderer and stability. These have all been pretty much resolved and now A:M has a really top notch hair/fur solution too.
Cloth and import/export abilities remain poor. Cloth is likely to be improved in the near future. The other will probably never be a high priority for Hash, it's not part of their philosophy for the program, and personally I don't care too much either. For me, the strength of A:M is it's basically all you need to make a 'kick-ass' movie. No need to re-mortgage your house to buy the program in the first place or indeed those essential plugins, and of course, the character animation tools are literally second to none.

[Zack]

Glad to see this story has a happy (or at least an optimistic) ending.

[Wycoff3d]

I think Hash has completetly turned around and for the better.:applause: Hey Pequod what do you mean when you said //The other will probably never be a high priority for Hash, it's not part of their philosophy for the program//

[pequod]

I meant the import and export of polygon models :)

[Raist3d]

Agreed. Well everything but the stability part. I dunno why but I seem to have a talent for crashing AM. . . and all I'm doing is modeling. It isn't ANYWHERE near what it used to be probably once every 3 hours of intense constant modeling. About the same level as Lightwave 8.

Their whole approach to their user base has COMPLETELY turned around. It is a whole new company as far as that is concerned.
Wow, that most be one of the best news I have heard in a long long time! Seriously that's awesome! I really hope that the positive reinforcement that comes out of this will propel Hash & company to set even higher goals for customer support, satisfaction and reciprocication!

I haven't used any 3d app in a while.. I should probably get really acquainted with Maya since that's what we use at work.. but I must ask Wegg (btw hi! :-) ):

* How has the rendering quality improved over previous version?
* How has the rendering speed improved over the previous version?

I remember those were heated topics when we were talking in this thread a while back and I even posted some Carrara latest version pics along with speedmarks.. so I wonder how's A:M doing nowadays...

Stability.. um... did they finally got Undo to really work? :-)

- Raist

[Wegg]

I'm going to close this thread down. Its ancient history and. . . a lot of people are getting confused when they first pop in here and think HOLY CRAP HASH SUCK! when the reality is far from it.

So. . . I hereby conclude the thread that started 18 moths ago.

All is well that ends well.

The End.