The Hardcore Modeling MINI-Challenge #3: Vitruvian Man

[P_T]

Heh I was right, it is the Vitruvian Man. A question if I may, if someone was to do a full 3D representation of the drawing, how should s/he represent the overlaying limbs?

[RobertoOrtiz]

Heh I was right, it is the Vitruvian Man. A question if I may, if someone was to do a full 3D representation of the drawing, how should s/he represent the overlaying limbs?

be creative... You guys always deliver
:)




-R

[dubotenorth]

ha! every option you listed had dificulty level high; i love it!

[Nux]

man oh man. i'm a total noob. only been dabbling with 3d apps for a little over a month, but this sounds so tantalizing i might just have to give it a go.

[corebee]

Jesus... i just can't seem to escape this guy, our agency is working on all the advertising for The DaVinci Code and i have had to stare at this illustration for the past 3 months... i would be a prime candidate for this mini challenge if i had any 3d skills :(

Anyhow good luck guys, can't wait to see what everyone comes up with!

[Rod Seffen]

Hmm..this is a bit of a weak choice Roberto, if I can be so bold. It's essentially the same as the first challenge - 'model an anatomically correct human male', though this one isn't half as interesting or challenging.

[BAMU]

maybe representing in a creative and interesting way the ovelaying postures is a more challenging then modelling itself... i like it :)

BAM

[Rod Seffen]

THere's no challenge in that whatsoever. You've only got four choices
1. Model a man with two arms and legs actually growing out of his body (ridiculous, since it has nothing to do with the subject)
2. Model the limbs as pipes merged together at the point of intersection.
3. Just have them intersecting.
4. PLace the tow figures in front of each other, with ither tranparency or cutout sections.
Considering the huge variety of subjects available, it just seems a little odd that 2 out of the first 3 challenges should be almost the same.

[MrJames]

I have to agree, with such a wide range of sunjects to choose from, this doesn't really inspire or interest me enough to take part... Don't get me wrong I love the idea of the challenge, but maybe we could have a vote or more of an active role in selecting the next challenge. :)

[fx81]

I have to agree, with such a wide range of sunjects to choose from, this doesn't really inspire or interest me enough to take part... Don't get me wrong I love the idea of the challenge, but maybe we could have a vote or more of an active role in selecting the next challenge. :)

one problem with voting topics is that if its obvious which topic will win the vote then some people might start working on them before the challenge is announced and therefore have more time to finish it.

anyways, i remember someone at zbrushcentral attempting this. however his version seems to be horrizontally flipped.

http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=278086#post278086

[Mattoo]

I don't think this is all together that similar to The David. I think there's quite a lot of room for interpretation here, which makes it all the more interesting to me.

This is more of a challenge creatively than reproducing The David. The drawing is little more than a sketch, there's very little detail and next to no shading. I'll enjoy researching how Da Vinci would have fleshed this out into a more tangible form.

[Rod Seffen]

This is a lot less challenging, since you can just use whatever generic anatomy you want, there is no right or wrong.
It was much harder copying the David, since we had so much reference, and therefore had to copy it exactly as Michelangleo sculpted it. Making an exact copy of someone else's anatomy study is much harder than modeling your own generic anatomy, and since this drawing has virtually no detail, that's what you'll be doing.
Leonardo, as far as I can see, was concerned with studying and depicting realistic anatomy in his other work, so deciding how he would have fleshed this out is hardly a concern.
It's a generic t-stance model, so you ony have to model one half, unlike David, and there are no complex muscle tension subtleties to worry about.

[Mattoo]

Leonardo, as far as I can see, was concerned with studying and depicting realistic anatomy in his other work, so deciding how he would have fleshed this out is hardly a concern.
It's a generic t-stance model, so you ony have to model one half, unlike David, and there are no complex muscle tension subtleties to worry about.

Personally the creative challenge here is more interesting to me than following someone elses design exactly, like a machine.

I would say this doesn't require as much observational skill as modelling The David and will require more subjective judgement. I feel this is more of an artistic persuit - there will be no correct or incorrect works from this.

The need to follow Da Vanci stylistically is a creative consideration I will enjoy - that need is of course my own take on this although I do infer it from the challenge. This will give some objectivity to the proceedings.

To say Da Vinci didn't have a style and all that's required is mere generalised anatomy is incorrect in my opinion. His emphasis on musculature in his renderings is quite unreal. His drawings are so lean as to appear almost without skin.

You also suggest that only half the model need building. That's true, but as I said, to do this properly an extended amount of research and preparation has to go into this that will eat away at those precious hours, rather than robotically following a design handed to you.

[Troy McClure]

THere's no challenge in that whatsoever. You've only got four choices
1. Model a man with two arms and legs actually growing out of his body (ridiculous, since it has nothing to do with the subject)
2. Model the limbs as pipes merged together at the point of intersection.
3. Just have them intersecting.
4. PLace the tow figures in front of each other, with ither tranparency or cutout sections.
Considering the huge variety of subjects available, it just seems a little odd that 2 out of the first 3 challenges should be almost the same.
I think the best is to made two rendering and then use photoshop to merge them.
Roberto we can do that?

[Mattoo]

I think the best is to made two rendering and then use photoshop to merge them.
Roberto we can do that?

I kind of planned on doing something like that.

[EricTheRed]

well... it's unfortunate that some feel like this challenge isn't going to be a valuable exercise in modeling since it seems similar to the david challenge. I know for myself, from my experience, to get better at something i have to practice it over and over.

with that said... i have a question for our illustrious leader, roberto:

suppose i start this project and plan on doing the full body, but find i don't have enough time to finish the full body, may i switch to just a body part? or conversely... if i find i am making really good time may i switch to full body shaded?

peace -- eric

[se7enthcin]

This is a lot less challenging, since you can just use whatever generic anatomy you want, there is no right or wrong.
It was much harder copying the David, since we had so much reference, and therefore had to copy it exactly as Michelangleo sculpted it. Making an exact copy of someone else's anatomy study is much harder than modeling your own generic anatomy, and since this drawing has virtually no detail, that's what you'll be doing.
Leonardo, as far as I can see, was concerned with studying and depicting realistic anatomy in his other work, so deciding how he would have fleshed this out is hardly a concern.
It's a generic t-stance model, so you ony have to model one half, unlike David, and there are no complex muscle tension subtleties to worry about.

I would have to respectively disagree. One would assume that Leo would have taken into account more of the underlying structure far beyond the fictitious idealism of the vitruvian man that you describe. The challenge is to recreate the anatomy of this illustration in a manor that represents Da Vinci's time spent with corpses, autopsies, dissections and other scientific and artistic endeavors. This does not lend to fictitious anatomy but it leads to the creation of the perfect male anatomy. Though this may step on some feelings, unlike the David, Vitruvian man is light-years beyond Michalangelo's sculpture as far as anatomical structure.

Think of it as recreating someone's facial features by studying the skeletal remains of someone who was around several hundred or thousand years ago. But aren't you lucky, you get to have an outline and his face.

[Rod Seffen]

The need to follow Da Vanci stylistically is a creative consideration I will enjoy - that need is of course my own take on this although I do infer it from the challenge. This will give some objectivity to the proceedings.

To say Da Vinci didn't have a style and all that's required is mere generalised anatomy is incorrect in my opinion. His emphasis on musculature in his renderings is quite unreal. His drawings are so lean as to appear almost without skin.

You also suggest that only half the model need building. That's true, but as I said, to do this properly an extended amount of research and preparation.
What research and preparation exactly? Anyone who already knows human anatomy won't need to do any, because as an anatomist, Lenonado was simply concerned with copying human anatomy as accurately as possible. You say his 'style' was to exaggerate the anatomy, but that is not a style, it just a way of making it easier to read.

[jbacker99]

I agree with oDDity, I believe this choice will be very easy because all you need to do is model half the generic anatomy and then mirror it. With the David competion, we had to either model everything from scratch (both sides) or we made a high poly model and then rigged and tweaiked a lot, completely making it unsymmetical. You can argue taht it takes creativity, but so what this is a modelling challenge. This seems like it should be a general project and not a modelling one. Thats just my idea. When I first read the rules for a the David project I was very excited, it seemed like a lot of fun, and many joined in. I think we can see that it didnt happen on this choice. To be honest, mona lisa would have been a better choice, because it is also a 2d image.

Also a really cool project would be the Pietà, but that would have to be a while from now because we've already done a sculpture by Michelangelo.

[RobertoOrtiz]

OK I ave read your points, and I will take them in consideration.
I do promise that we will do the pieta soon.

-R

[Kojocci]

Why not model so that when you look picture it looks same as original(2d) but when camera moves you realize that it is 3d?

[Rod Seffen]

WHy not just make a 3d model of a piece of paper with the drawing printed on it, maybe with a little page curl at one of the corners if you want to be really ambitious.

:D :D :D :D

[Neil]

I know you're not supposed to use pre existing work, but i still forsee many people taking a human they're already done and just tweaking it to make it look like this.

[jbacker99]

I know you're not supposed to use pre existing work, but i still forsee many people taking a human they're already done and just tweaking it to make it look like this.

I guess thats why you need to show wip images.

[janimatic]

hello!
how funny i just started this man 8 days before the challenge got annouced! :
http://animatic.no-ip.com/cgi-bin/img.pl?dir=/projets/wip/averageAnatomy/&width=400
Anyway to follow the rules i will restart from scratch, so please post suggestions (i am real newbie in anatomy) before i made a brand new man.
I agree that the fantastic Leonardo drawing show a lot of things with a small amount of strokes. I think it's really full of informations, and really hard challenge.
Are we supposed to produce an ink style render, or skin shading ??
The problem is that actual human photo references only show over muscled men... if someone know more realistic (i mean less athletic) body phot refs that would be fantastic.
Anyway i just bought a couple of books and decided to learn !
Happy challenge to everyone

[bkeiser3d]

This contest sounds neat, I'm going to use maya and z-brush for it. Hopefully, it will help me improve my Z-brush skills for detail. I don't know if I want to do a body part or the whole model yet.

[Rambiert]

Profesor Peter Ratner's workshop. I have Pieta and David in one:) . All body elements, full perfect human model. Yep. I'm digital rasist ;) and mesh monster inside me is back. I feel it.

Pieta's model i saw here wasn't perfect or was far from perfection. You saw what i mean.

Oki doki. Your Z-Brush vs my hand and pure modeling without helpers. It's my deal for a challenge with you guys. I know what yo can do, Z-Brush is wundabra and amazing future tool, aber, aber, i prefer sure hand than fake 3D with 2.5D.

[MrPositive]

I think it's a fantastic idea, as this will let people be a tad more creative on their deliverable. And for those who say it is so easy, well then show us.... :) The hardcore modeling challenges have taken over this site! hahaha

[Rambiert]

... And for those who say it is so easy, well then show us.... :) The hardcore modeling challenges hahaha

Voila. Is on the way. I'll do and show my best. Yep. ... have taken over this site and most of people here! :)

[RobertoOrtiz]

Ok we have WIP threads for:

HARDCORE MODELING: Vitruvian Man: Body Part - Nux (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=376165)
HARDCORE MODELING!: VitruvianMan: Full Body & Shading (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=376262)
HARDCORE MODELING: VitruvianMan: Full Body & Shading - Stahlberg (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=377693)

Am I missing anyone?

-R

[Funxer]

This is a lot less challenging, since you can just use whatever generic anatomy you want, there is no right or wrong.
It was much harder copying the David, since we had so much reference, and therefore had to copy it exactly as Michelangleo sculpted it. Making an exact copy of someone else's anatomy study is much harder than modeling your own generic anatomy, and since this drawing has virtually no detail, that's what you'll be doing.
Leonardo, as far as I can see, was concerned with studying and depicting realistic anatomy in his other work, so deciding how he would have fleshed this out is hardly a concern.
It's a generic t-stance model, so you ony have to model one half, unlike David, and there are no complex muscle tension subtleties to worry about.

oDDity don't get me wrong, I'm not joining this challenge due to a lack of modeling skills, yet you seem very confident in your skills the Vitruvian Man is not just simple generic anatomy...look closely at his face and how much detail is in there, he has hanging loose jowels, a cleft chin and wild hair, all of the muscles on the leg are hinted too and it's very subtle yet if you have the arms in the upper most position you will need to sculpt differently the area where the deltoid creases at the head of the humurus and the Clavical.

You are setting yourself up for much scrutiny with your arrogant attitude, and don't overlook the beauty render, if your lighting can reflect the same subtle details as the original you will have a closer replication of the original.

[Mattoo]

Nicely put Funxer.

I liken this challenge to most modelling based on concept art - where the image is not exacting enough to draw upon directly. Some research, knowledge of the subject, and the ability to interpret the concept throughout the finished model. To capture the spirit of the concept is key here.

In this case, Da Vinci has drawn an aged man, I would say no younger than 40 years old from both the face and body. Finding reference for such a subject is, perhaps not surprisingly, difficult.

By no means is this "generic anatomy" as some have put. This fellow has character.

Personally I'd find it far easier if someone were to ask me to replicate an existing object, with all the reference I needed. That was one of the reasons I skipped the two previous challenges. I would have learned how to copy, not necessarily to understand.

[janimatic]

In this case, Da Vinci has drawn an aged man, I would say no younger than 40 years old from both the face and body. Finding reference for such a subject is, perhaps not surprisingly, difficult.

indeed, that's incredibly hard to find, even in drawing or photograph books.
You'll find plenty wonderfull old people head, but no old nude people.
By the way di wonder if 3dsk solves this, if yes i may give it a try...

[Mattoo]

I had a quick look on 3Dsk, nothing particularly suitable.

It's doubly hard to find anything due to the fact that few people have the same lifestyle they did 500 years ago - certainly of a person of that age. So even if we did find any nude reference from that age group it's highly unlikely they'll have a similar build.

[janimatic]

i guess the only way is to take a look at many michelange / davinci drawings...
I am sorry but as i just did a (45 y old) man body latelyand i don't want to break thge rule of not reusing it, I wasn't very motivated for the challenge (i am currently having fun modeling animals) and the dead line will come shortly now ...
I hope someone can do something with the L. Da Vinci vision, telling a lot with very few strokes (or edges) or like Mailes Davis said : don't play too many notes, only the good ones...
best regards

[Rod Seffen]

I think you're tyring to read more into it that is there.
You can see from the drawing, specifically at the waist, that the guy is very well defined, with virtually no body fat. This is normally the way such subjects are portrayed, to have the muscles defined properly, and that's the way in should be modeled.
In this case, a 45 year fat-less body is no different to a 25 year old fat-less body, since it's mainly the fat and saggy skin that makes the difference, but on such a well toned body, age is going to make little visible difference, except for the face and to a lesser extent, the hands, he will also be more vascular as the skin moulds around the veins more in later life as it loses its springiness.
Look at Arnold Schwarzenegger's body to see what I mean, and he's 55.

[RobertoOrtiz]

HRC #3: Vitruvian Man TWO WEEKS TO GO! (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=381007)

[RobertoOrtiz]

Just a heads up!

HRC #3: Vitruvian Man ONE WEEK TO GO! (Monday Night July 24th) (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=382843)

-R

[xyzjpc]

Hey i hope its not too late to join, but ive been workin on this for a couple weeks, my post is:


HARDCORE MODELING!: VitruvianMan: <<Full Body and Shading >> (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=384885)


here is my wip post
HARDCORE MODELING-Vitruvian man, John Conelea (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=382711)

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=382711

[xyzjpc]

Alright Everyone here is My FINAL POST!!

I acidentally named my WIP post, so here is my offical one,
My WIP post is: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=382711 -->(and is
calledHARDCORE MODELING-Vitruvian man, John Conelea (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=382711))


Here is my Final image, Hope you Enjoy!

I modeled this piece in a about a 25-30 hours. I modeled the base mesh in Softimage Xsi 5, and then brought it into Zbrush for high poly detailing. After creating a displacement map, I brought everything into Modo, and rendered it with GI and Micro poly displacement. I really enjoyed doing this Hardcore modeling challenge, and learned alot. Thanks Robert Ortiz+CGTalk!!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/final.jpg


Here are all the links to the other images:

High res image: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/highres.jpg
z brush detail: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/zbrush.jpg
front: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/front.jpg
back: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/back.jpg
side(r): http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/sider.jpg
side(l): http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/sidel.jpg
top view: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/top.jpg
bottom: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/plethora3d/bottom.jpg

[BobbyB]

Ok here is my entry

I said i would do it so here we are.

I only ended up spending maybe 12 hours on the model. I gave Zbrush a bit of a go on this one. I havnt used it on a project before. I do believe i will use it again.

Hopefully next organic model round i can find some more time to have a good go at it.
Also Hopefull not another naked guy.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=98998

higher res- http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=98999
front- http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99000
back- http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99001
top- http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99002
side- http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99003

[RobertoOrtiz]

HCR MINI-Challenge #3: Vitruvian Man THE VOTING THREAD WILL GO LIVE Thursday night (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=385163)
Until then I am NOT looking.

-R

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