Freelancing question : 3D illustrations

[fuller]

Hi!

I had a very similar question about two weeks ago. You can find some great guidelines in this topic:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=370091

Good luck!

Balint

[Jimstein]

Yes, it is Similar but different. I have read it already and it is informative. Your project is about animations like the other threads concerning freelancing that I have covered.



In my project I work with only static images. My client is an image producer that will make 2d sketches for me of what he wants and then I will “transfer” that into 3d images. I have no idea what I should charge for this kind of work… The image producer is therefore kind of responsible for the design but I have to do the hard work. I have a feeling we are going to share the royalty/payment for each image. I just want to be well prepared before I step into the negation so that I know my position.

[wesware]

I do quite a bit of 3d stills.
I approach it the same way I would animaiton, with a complete job list.
I can't remember if he has already supplied you with pencils or not but I don't see anyway you can bid this without seeing the sketches first.

Then I would break each image down in a job list.
Examples:
Objects
-modelling
--hours modelling per object
Lighting
-hours for lighting
Texturing
-hours per object texturing
etc.

You need to have the full grasp on each illustration.
As we all know, there is a huge difference between a coffee cup and a car with someone driving it over a volcano.

Then decide what your worth per hour and multiply.
Unless it's a high figure, I can't see ballparking this job without more info.

[wesware]

Oh, also.
If the client wants to pay the same rate per illustration then just figure your total hours, multiply by your rate then divide by the total number of illustrations.

[shakes]

5 3d books with 12 images per book? sounds like a scary amount of work! very hard to charge for something like that- especially if they are giving you royalties too.I doubt they will pay the full rate for creating a 3d image- it's much more time consuming than 2d illustration.(I'd say minimum 1000 EURO per page)
also, if I were doing it I'd make sure the contract stipulates that you retain copyright of the figures, in case they market toys / merchandise from them in the future

do you know how many characters you have to make? and how complicated are the scenes?

[LucentDreams]

Can't really add much on to what Wes said, very wise words. And if they are asking for PIXAR quality, they shouldn't be able to bat an eye lid at a larger number ;)

[Primitiv]

I think you may be heading for disaster...

[Jimstein]

I agree with your estimation Shakes. I believe unfortunately I can only ask for 60% of the minimum estimation you gave for the Swedish market and hope I can gain the rest later. This is because the price I am calculating should depend on the number of printed copies.

Primitive: That is probably true - but I hope I know when I should bailout. At least from the advice I have got from you all. I am also into this job for the experience and PR. But I will turn down the offer if it is reckless. And what Kai says give me more confidence to dare to ask for what it is worth.

Tnx Shakes and Wesware, I like your work.

[PhilipN]

Unfortunatley illustration for childrens books is really badly paid - even with decent clients - I've done several books for Lego and its really just for the fun of it. Whereas what Wes says will work for other types of work you'll find that most book publishers have a fixed (low) sum in their heads per page and you'll have to take it or leave it. They usually have no concept of certain images being much harder to do well in 3D than others. I hope I'm not being too pessimistic but I'd be surprised if they wanted to pay more than SEK 35000 per book. You need to make sure that you won't miss out on other work if you take this job because in this instance there being a lot of work is actually a disadvantage to you since you'll be comitted to finishing the work at a (very) low hourly rate and if you produce less than your best work to try to save some time you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot. Think long and hard about what you're getting into.

Philip

[Mike Abbott]

Bottom line:

Whatever you do, don't underprice yourself. Get as much info on the job as possible, make a *realistic* estimate of how long the job will take (then multiply by 1.5x - it will always take longer then you think) and then multiply by your hourly rate. You also need to get absolute clarification on the terms - who will own what, what you are delivering, what others responsibilities are etc (in writing).

Then quote the price, no matter how high it looks to you. Don't be tempted to cut it 'to get the job'. If it's too much for the client, say thanks for the opportunity and move on to the next prospect...


Mike A.

[Sully]

Thats sounds like a great deal of work to me I would be very careful initially on what you agree to do for the money...If your paid by the image then it really gives them the right to change and correct as much as they want...Ive worked under similar condisions before and it really was a stressful experience for me, be sure to get everything clear on paper first otherwise your asking for trouble!! I work for Lego and part of my job is creating still images in 3d and im always amazed how long it takes compared to how long you think it will take..and if your paying Swedish tax 35000k per book doesnt sound to appealing to me. Hope it goes well for you though all the best..

[flyingP]

Shakes and PhilipN, sort of struck what i was thinking too, to the best of my knowledge children's books really are notoriously badly paid, one of the reasons I have never really bothered to go after them myself either, pity as some of them would be fun to do.

And just once again to pick up on what Shakes said about the copyright, it's not something you just want to give away

[Lovas]

A little bit of optimism from my side: you'll have only one main character for all of the illustrations. That means concept design, the modeling, vertex painting and rigging (being the most demanding parts of the task) are to be done only once. For the rest of the images you'll only have to do a couple of sketches, animate the character position, add details, maybe change the scene and lighting setup a little bit... It is still a demanding task, ok, but maybe not as much as you had the first impression.

As the others said, don't underprice yourself - if you don't respect your time, work and knowlege the others will even less. And don't get scared by "the current Swedish market" and let it influence your price: you are actually part of that market and influncing the prices as well. Think of it this way: Maybe the current prices on the Swedish market for such illustrations are low because the market has yet to see the 3D illustrations at a quality level you can offer.

Your clients will probably earn lots od money by selling the books (I doub't they'd do it all just for the sheer love of children:twisted: ) so it is fair that you get your share. Don't be ashamed to put up the price you think fair, don't let them decide price for you and, most of all, never try to "be nice " to the client by lowing the price - as you won't earn their respect by doing that. On the contrary, they'd probably laugh behind your back about how stupid you are. After all it is the book's author and the illustrator who do all the creative work, the others (printers, resellers, managers) are only an inevitable financial noise in the process.

Finally, if you can't get the just price to cover your expenses and earn something over it, simply don't do it! Rather spend your time on your own project that you enjoy doing or enter some CG challenge or something than waste the time on a commercial project that won't pay off.

[Jimstein]

You were quite right about the remuneration-offer Philip. So did you agree to do the work on that fee? I feel it would be quite justified if it were 2D illustrations… perhaps even for illustrating Lego midgets in 3D.

If we lived in an ideal world the author and the illustrator should be the people that earn the most in a book project. In the real world there are some hungry sharks that help you reach the market, and you cannot do it without them (hardly). I am thinking that if we consider the effort from author and illustrator the deciding factors of how well the books sell — they should both earn there profit from how well the book is selling.

I told my client what I considered the images being worth, and proposed that they could also give something close to 7% the sales price in remuneration. I also stated that I did not know the complexity of the individual images and therefore could not agree on anything until I do.

I had the belief that the price offered was excluding tax as it were so low. You are right Sully that I have to make sure it is not included already in the offer. The Tax for artwork in Sweden is 6%, right or wrong?

Thanks Lovas and the rest of you for the input. By discussing this openly we are protecting each other and boosting our intelligence in negotiating the price.

[PhilipN]

Jim

If you mean did I accept the jobs knowing the fee was low then yes I did - but I always did the books on my terms as far as timing went. As you know Sweden tends to shut down in July so I always tried to get the work to do then when there wouldn't be too much else going on. Altogether I've done about six books spread out over 3-4 years and as I said I did them because they are a lot of fun to do - never for the money. In fact it gets worse.... all the books I've done have come via my agent in London and of course he takes a chunk of the cash as well so it really was just for the fun of it and having something to put in my portfolio. If you're even vaguely interested in what I did as an example you can see some pages here:

http://www.illustrations.se/Books_pages/Insectoids.html

Of course there were a few perks - I got to go to Legoland for a day and I got to play with the Lego kits. In the end modelling Lego is dead easy, Lego being Lego. Having said that I've also done books that were not Lego - you just have to decide to do each book or not on its own merits. What I wouldn't do is five or six books all at once on a deadline.


Philip

[geoffr]

For publishing in the UK market there is a 5 times mark up when sold. This will give you an idea of how little each book costs to produce.
If you are working for a book packager who then sells the finished title to a publishing company, there will probably be no chance of getting any royalties.
Most people don't realise how little money there is in publishing (unless you're a famous idiot 'writing' an autobiography).

[Joseppi]

Jim,

I would be wary of committing to a 5 book deal up front. The company has consistancy in mind for the series as one factor, but there are a lot of details to work out for even one book and since it's a new working relationship and you have to develop the working process, committing to 5 books is only going to magnify whatever the situation ends up being.

You should try to say since this is a new relationship, you could sign up for 1 book with the agreement to set terms for additional books after completing the first.

There really isn't much for you to gain committing to such a large span of work when it is such an unknown. You should get as much as you can think of in writing, mainly limits on the number of revisions, and maybe a cap on total development time. You could estimate various section times, (modelling, character developemnt, etc.) and trade amongst the various sections for time if needed, but you shouldhave protections so each image doesn't turn into a never-ending round of revisions.

Joe

[Jimstein]

I got a replay yesterday from my client offering me 5% of the income they make from the books. It should be two main characters throughout the series and 2-5 new characters per new book. I am tempted to take this offer as a rookie — and even if I wish I got remuneration from the sales price. I replied that I first wants to be sure I keep all the rights to the images and models and that I only take commission on the first book for starter. If he agrees on that we should probably have a meeting in one or two weeks.

Tnx for all the tips Philip, Joe and geoffr. btw Philip, your portfolio is excellent.

[Vozzz]

i don't know i might be getting soemthing wrong here. But shakes said he should retain the copyright if they make toys or something. But didnt the other guy design the characters?

Anyway good luck. I never understand why people don't negotiate a base price up front. Makes life so much easier.

[PhilipN]

Jim,

In the end of course you are the only one who can make a decision. Since you admit to being a rookie then you certainly wouldn't be wrong to do it for the experience but I think we're all agreed its not going to make you rich. This thread has mostly been doom and gloom warning you off but if you want to go for it then don't pay any attention to the naysayers (including me) and just do it - as Nike would say:-)

Thanks for your kind comments about my work.

Philip

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