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eek
06-12-2006, 06:08 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5063072.stm

"The vote is a defeat for Google, eBay and Amazon which wanted the net neutrality principle protected by law. All three mounted vigorous lobbying campaigns prior to the vote in the House of Representatives. "

Bonedaddy
06-12-2006, 06:28 PM
It's things like this that make me want to murder everyone in a five mile radius.

psyop63b
06-12-2006, 06:37 PM
I'm sure the only one's who will benefit from this law will be Comcast, AOL, Earthlink, the Bells, and other telecom sleazeballs.

.

EpShot
06-12-2006, 06:45 PM
well, still has to get through the senate. =/

cyartist
06-12-2006, 07:31 PM
Please vote out every Republican in office. Enough is enough.

CupOWonton
06-12-2006, 09:01 PM
For this, Let's ask a ninja.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ibStAFDqw_Y&search=Ask%20A%20Ninja%20Net%20Neutrality

RobertoOrtiz
06-12-2006, 09:04 PM
I know it is hard for this topic, but lest keep the politics off the thread.


-R

P_T
06-12-2006, 09:10 PM
How would this affect people who don't live in the States?

maX_Andrews
06-12-2006, 10:20 PM
Well it's not protected, but it's not dead either. What will happen is some idiot company will start charging and people will be like...screw that, and then a big underground will develop that is "free" and neutral, killing the stupid companies who are trying to screw us over, and then new companies will profit by offering a charge neutral net service very similar to what we pay for now.

It's a typical model of bigger companies being unwilling to change, and moreover unwilling to spend money to change, so they charge us more so they can do less. Someone will do it better (cough GOOGLE cough), and they will win.

The only reason it wasn't passed is that the internet backbones are not state-owned, they are private. Becuase the main backbones are owned by MCI, COVAD, etc, they can in theory do whatever they want because it's private property. Doesn't mean we have to like it though. Soon enough the entire US metro area will have a free hotspot provided by google and earthlink, and we can kiss aol and the other scumbags goodbye.

I've been with speakesy for a while now. No bandwidth restrictions whatsoever and they operate their own backbone, so I don't have to deal with this crap. http://www.speakeasy.net/
I also have their bundled VOIP service which is great (free calling to over 20 countries), and their customer service is top notch. I am now in no way whatsoever tied to a telecom. Yay!

Gentle Fury
06-12-2006, 10:46 PM
Man, but with support from Alysa Millano! She was on Who's The Boss!

Seriously though....it was only a matter of time the internet became a controlled commodity.....Enron PART II!

charleyc
06-12-2006, 10:47 PM
Please vote out every Republican in office. Enough is enough.

Get real. It is absurd and ignorant to believe that issues of money in politics are devided by such lines.


Net Neutrality is an important thing that must be handled correctly. I certainly do not want to be limited in my access to sites such as Google and what not. But on the other hand, I don't laws in place that will make it harder or impossible for net users to restrict access to unwanted sites such as porn or such. Also, it would be nice if there could be restrictions on pop up adds that wouldn't inadvertantly get blocked by freedom laws that are not specific enough. The wrong net neutrality laws, while allowing the freedoms we as net users want, could also create problems with some of the undesirable Internet conduct. If I am not mistaken, the article posted was specifically dealing with a semi-related issue (COPE Act) where net neutrality support was attempted to be added as an amendment. I would rather see laws wholy and specifically developed to deal with this issue. I support anyone who is campaigning for net neutrality, but I urge people to do so smartly, not blindly or hastily.

I agree that once any company attempts to cross the already established line of ISP conduct, we will see a massive backlash of net users. But if it gets to that point, things could be harder to change.

JeroenDStout
06-12-2006, 10:54 PM
a big underground will develop that is "free" and neutral
The DarkNet. Outside of normal servers, the DarkNet lives... there's myths about that.

Gentle Fury
06-12-2006, 11:06 PM
Get real. It is absurd and ignorant to believe that issues of money in politics are devided by such lines.


Net Neutrality is an important thing that must be handled correctly. I certainly do not want to be limited in my access to sites such as Google and what not. But on the other hand, I don't laws in place that will make it harder or impossible for net users to restrict access to unwanted sites such as porn or such. Also, it would be nice if there could be restrictions on pop up adds that wouldn't inadvertantly get blocked by freedom laws that are not specific enough. The wrong net neutrality laws, while allowing the freedoms we as net users want, could also create problems with some of the undesirable Internet conduct. If I am not mistaken, the article posted was specifically dealing with a semi-related issue (COPE Act) where net neutrality support was attempted to be added as an amendment. I would rather see laws wholy and specifically developed to deal with this issue. I support anyone who is campaigning for net neutrality, but I urge people to do so smartly, not blindly or hastily.

I agree that once any company attempts to cross the already established line of ISP conduct, we will see a massive backlash of net users. But if it gets to that point, things could be harder to change.

Why stop at pr0n tho (and of course one persons definition of pr0n differs greatly from another).....wouldn't it also make it so ISPs that are in the presidents ledger could block access to protest sites....or vital information that they deem dangerous, or religious practices they deem unworthy....this is a hinderence on our basic rights as american citizens......Ridiculous notion! But leave it to our horribly oppressive government to tell us what we can and cant view or say.

cyartist
06-12-2006, 11:13 PM
I know it is hard for this topic, but lest keep the politics off the thread.


-R


All due respect Roberto but the hold point of it is political.
It is based on politics and lobbying.

ericsmith
06-12-2006, 11:13 PM
It's interesting to me to hear what some people consider their rights. If I access the internet through Comcast, I'm paying a fee to gain access to their equipment. My only rights in this area is to accept whatever parameters they have established in using their technology, or, if I don't like the product I'm buying, stop paying for it and go somewhere else.

But what I'm hearing here is that Private companies don't have the right to control their own product. In a way, AOL has been doing this for years, providing content through the web that only AOL subscribers have access to.

The bottom line is, if an ISP wants to charge content providers to make that content available through the ISP's network, they have every right to do so, and those content providers have every right to pay or not pay. If enough content providers decide to not pay, it will only hurt the ISP, as customers will choose a competing ISP that doesn't limit the content they get when browsing.

But government regulation over private commerce can't be the right answer to this purely financial issue. The only reason they would need to get involved is if there was a monopoly on internet access, and consumers couldn't choose another option.

Eric

charleyc
06-12-2006, 11:20 PM
Why stop at pr0n tho (and of course one persons definition of pr0n differs greatly from another).....wouldn't it also make it so ISPs that are in the presidents ledger could block access to protest sites....or vital information that they deem dangerous, or religious practices they deem unworthy....this is a hinderence on our basic rights as american citizens......Ridiculous notion! But leave it to our horribly oppressive government to tell us what we can and cant view or say.

You are misinterprating what I said. I certainly do not want the government to control wheter or not I can go to a particular site. But I also don't want laws that are supposed to be protective for us (net users) from IPS's to flow over into other areas of internet usage that could make it harder for the end user to intentionally restrict access because of limited scope or misworded laws.

Gentle Fury
06-12-2006, 11:34 PM
You are misinterprating what I said. I certainly do not want the government to control wheter or not I can go to a particular site. But I also don't want laws that are supposed to be protective for us (net users) from IPS's to flow over into other areas of internet usage that could make it harder for the end user to intentionally restrict access because of limited scope or misworded laws.

That wasn't actually directed at your quote specifically....just the fact that what you said described this situation perfectly, and why it is bad.....when you take away the bad parts of things you end up removing the good too.

To some a Pagan website would be deemed as a disgusting perversity that should not exist and is a blasphemous attack on god......to others a christian site is the same....if you take away one, you must remove the other.

Same goes for everything else. If you truly tried to satisfy every user you would either end up with nothing.....or Neutrality. There is no in between.

If you dont want your kids looking at things you deem inappropriate....as a responsible parent, block their access....or as a more responsible parent, educate them, so they won't be so surprised at how ugly the world is.....or get hurt learning that from someone other than you.

It really always comes down to money. Things that are considered bad, or taboo......are profitable....so, if ISP's could block all "bad" material.....but offer it back to the consumer at a premium (Spice Network, Playboy Channel, Pay Per View.....etc) they profit off of what was considered evil by the same profiters......hypocritical to me.

Again as i said before....Special Interests can also contribute....Block all anti-war sentiment, and anti-bush campains.....and only support propaganda.....big money to be made.

Unfortunatly politics and money go hand in hand.....as do war and money, greed and money, famine and money........you get the idea.

charleyc
06-12-2006, 11:35 PM
It's interesting to me to hear what some people consider their rights. If I access the internet through Comcast, I'm paying a fee to gain access to their equipment. My only rights in this area is to accept whatever parameters they have established in using their technology, or, if I don't like the product I'm buying, stop paying for it and go somewhere else.

While this is true, it is also why there are laws against monoplies. The whole issue stems from the fact that on the average, there are only two broadband providers available in most areas. This limits our ability to stop using one because we don't agree with thier policies.

As I said before, this is an important thing that needs to be delt with carefully. It is something that if done wrong could still be taken advantage of by web savy corporations. Complete equal opportunity for us as users could mean complete equal oppotunity for things like pop-up advertising for any number of product types.

charleyc
06-12-2006, 11:48 PM
Gentle Fury - Ah, I see where you are comming from. My concern has less to do with the specific scope of ISP's and more the danger that could come by placeing a blanket free access law, it could get interprated such that any form of restrictions, even on the users end could get attacked. Just as there is a lot of money to be made by restricting access, there are a lot of companies making money through unrestricted access (hence the need of internet security software). It is a balance that I admit I am not smart enough (nor have the desire) to figure out, but I can easily see both sides of this taking advantage of weak or misguided laws.

maX_Andrews
06-13-2006, 02:39 AM
It should really be up to the content providers, not the ISP's. The ISP's make money by charging for access. If they have tiered access in the sense of you have to pay more for certain sites, that's discrimination in that they are deciding what content is worth more and what is not. And more importantly, they are undermining the purpose of content providers and encraoching upon their business. Take p0rn for example. You pay a membership fee and that's how that content provider makes money. Then blogs are free, and supported by ads and donations. That is their choice. Now the ISP comes along and says "well you have to pay to use p0rn sites, and you also have to pay to read blogs because they are popular, and we think you should pay for popular things." Well then you are paying twice for p0rn, and you are paying for what is supposed to be a free service and community of blogs. It will hurt many free sites because they won't have the exposure to all that they once would have.

This is the single biggest issue facing the internet today. The internet was conceived as a free tool, a community, and this threatens to topple that maxim. The internet is so great and so useful because 98% of what we use it for is free. And we pay for access to it and we're not bitching that they haven't upped braodband speeds, so they need to suck it up because they will end up killing the internet and the community that makes it great.

cyartist
06-13-2006, 02:50 AM
Everyone is missing the point. ISPs are making a ton of cash already. They are just being greedy and want to charge for everything and control everything. It is that simple and it is called a monopoly.

talos72
06-13-2006, 02:52 AM
This new attempts to change the nature of how the internet attempt is really about the ISPs attempting to make some fast bucks. They know broadband technology will be advancing, while bandwidth increasing to a point where the internet will be the biggest source of information and entertainment for most people. The ISPs simply want to create gates to control the flow of information hence fattening their pockets further. It has little to do with political ideology, choice or improving the world wide web. They have a strong lobby and unless we and others start making some noise and protest, the ISPs would love to hamstring the internet in a cheap, digusting attempt to extort more money out of people's pockets. Honestly, at the core of this debate the explanations are rather simple: ISPs are opportunists who are trying to make a fast buck. We should definitly be outraged by this development.

Layer01
06-13-2006, 12:13 PM
if only a giant earthquake would shatter the united states into lots of little islands and spread them throughout the pacific ocean. maybe then they would be forced to realise that the universe does indeed exist beyond their borders, and all the morons can be moved to one island...preferably a volcanic one in the equator that will no doubt be submerged due to the global warming thats not happening.

fogive my sweeping statments but not a day goes by when i dont hear about the latest stupid thing going on in america, its like its some other planet, not part of our world and yet it still affects us all.


and my heart goes out to all the normal people in america, i hear that by slaughtering masses of idiots things like this dont happen as often...well its worth a try.

Blazer
06-13-2006, 12:27 PM
if only a giant earthquake would shatter the united states into lots of little islands and spread them throughout the pacific ocean. maybe then they would be forced to realise that the universe does indeed exist beyond their borders, and all the morons can be moved to one island...preferably a volcanic one in the equator that will no doubt be submerged due to the global warming thats not happening.

fogive my sweeping statments but not a day goes by when i dont hear about the latest stupid thing going on in america, its like its some other planet, not part of our world and yet it still affects us all.


and my heart goes out to all the normal people in america, i hear that by slaughtering masses of idiots things like this dont happen as often...well its worth a try.


I'm sure you don't have stupid laws, moronic politicians, or greedy corporations in Australia.....:rolleyes:

mech7
06-13-2006, 12:35 PM
Stupidity is what binds human beings... it can be found in every culture or race :D

Maven
06-13-2006, 12:50 PM
Go here and make yourself heard.

http://savetheinternet.com/

Click on the Save the internet graphic in the upper right and fill out the form.

CIM
06-13-2006, 12:52 PM
if only a giant earthquake would shatter the united states into lots of little islands and spread them throughout the pacific ocean. maybe then they would be forced to realise that the universe does indeed exist beyond their borders, and all the morons can be moved to one island...preferably a volcanic one in the equator that will no doubt be submerged due to the global warming thats not happening.

fogive my sweeping statments but not a day goes by when i dont hear about the latest stupid thing going on in america, its like its some other planet, not part of our world and yet it still affects us all.


and my heart goes out to all the normal people in america, i hear that by slaughtering masses of idiots things like this dont happen as often...well its worth a try.

I'd say stupid is suggesting the death of millions for any reason. :rolleyes:

arvid
06-13-2006, 02:42 PM
what the hell is this..? do the big ISP's want rights to censor parts of the internet in the USA?

Bloody hell, I thought the US were against dictatorships.

Gentle Fury
06-13-2006, 03:09 PM
what the hell is this..? do the big ISP's want rights to censor parts of the internet in the USA?

Bloody hell, I thought the US were against dictatorships.

LOL, that was a joke right? You meant the USA right....maybe there is another country that goes by US that i dont know about that doesnt allow its president free reign over any attrocity he deems worthy.....perhaps a US that doesnt kill thousands of its own for profit......maybe one that doesnt use the media to scare its citizens into complacency then calls the ones that want hard facts "conspiracy theorists".....or perhaps the country that would actually cheer the killing of innocent foreign citizens for vigilence against attacks they only think were perpertrated against them......to invade.....i mean liberate.....the oilfields.....i mean oppressed people.

This country makes me sick.....I'm seriously considering moving......maybe India...so i can actually get a job in my field.

JohnD
06-13-2006, 03:26 PM
LOL, that was a joke right? You meant the USA right....maybe there is another country that goes by US that i dont know about that doesnt allow its president free reign over any attrocity he deems worthy.....perhaps a US that doesnt kill thousands of its own for profit......maybe one that doesnt use the media to scare its citizens into complacency then calls the ones that want hard facts "conspiracy theorists".....or perhaps the country that would actually cheer the killing of innocent foreign citizens for vigilence against attacks they only think were perpertrated against them......to invade.....i mean liberate.....the oilfields.....i mean oppressed people.

This country makes me sick.....I'm seriously considering moving......maybe India...so i can actually get a job in my field.

Spoken like the typical person who has been spoiled and lived free his whole life. I should convince my buddy's parents to post on here if I can. They are from Lithuania and laugh at comments like this. You want to talk about growing up oppressed and under the thumb of a murderous government...sit down with them for a couple of hours. They've got quite the story to tell.

Cypher666
06-13-2006, 03:38 PM
I'm sure you don't have stupid laws, moronic politicians, or greedy corporations in Australia.....:rolleyes:

Very true. However most of the greedy corporations are American and our stupid laws are passed on to us from the American influence on our moronic, butt kissing politicians.

pixelmonk
06-13-2006, 03:43 PM
Please vote out every Republican in office. Enough is enough.

that's about as smart as the article. Learn.

Gentle Fury
06-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Spoken like the typical person who has been spoiled and lived free his whole life. I should convince my buddy's parents to post on here if I can. They are from Lithuania and laugh at comments like this. You want to talk about growing up oppressed and under the thumb of a murderous government...sit down with them for a couple of hours. They've got quite the story to tell.

I'm sure they do.....but all big problems have to start somewhere.....do you really think that the route that this country will not eventually cause it to become a thrid world nation, bombed and attacked daily.....that in my opinion is an entirely foreseeable future. To say that im ignorant by facing the facts of whats going on in this country is even more ignorant.....sure there are countrys worse off then us....and they've been around a LOT longer and have had centuries of greed and hatred tear them appart.....give it time....the US will be just like Lithuania in due time.

Rome wasn't built in a day....nor did it fall in that time.

havokzprodigy
06-13-2006, 04:06 PM
Thanks I needed a good laugh today.

spikkel
06-13-2006, 04:57 PM
I fail to see what these laws have to do with the sudden outbursts of anti-americanism (even from americans). This can happen everywhere and anywhere.

And remember, even if some of you think America is in trouble right now, don't worry. America is a strong, large and mostly intelligent country and I seriously doubt that it will follow in the footsteps of a former Eastern block, ex-Soviet country. Seriously.
As long as you at least have a two party political system with voting rights and democratic elections you're pretty well off.

And besides, any nation that survived Nixon can be sure to survive just about anything. :D

Now the net thing sucks. But you know what? As long as its not done behind closed doors and the public can make a differance, then you can do something about it.

cyartist
06-13-2006, 04:57 PM
PixelMonk maybe you should learn something. Which political party is in control of the politics in America. You probably do not know.

JohnD
06-13-2006, 05:05 PM
PixelMonk maybe you should learn something. Which political party is in control of the politics in America. You probably do not know.

"In control of the politics?" I'm not quite sure what this means...but neither party has complete control over the passing and dumping of bills and such. That's how the government is designed. No one has absolute power. There are checks and balances. Whatever party does have a majority in the house, senate etc...the citizens put them there.

pixelmonk
06-13-2006, 05:06 PM
PixelMonk maybe you should learn something. Which political party is in control of the politics in America. You probably do not know.

I probably do. I've been living in the D.C. area (not the "outlying" islands) for the past 15 years and been involved with the goverment in some way shape or form almost the whole time. You're pretty ignorant or just some democrat troll to think it's only "republicans who control politics in America". Politics are politics... there is no one in control over them. Anyone can enter into politics. Policy is a different word. Probably one you should have thought about using, versus politics. And with that, there are various senior (and even junior) level Democrats with more clout and push than you think. So quit babbling and realize things aren't just black and white when it comes to an issue like this.

RobertoOrtiz
06-13-2006, 05:15 PM
Ok lets get backk on topic, or ill close the thread.

BTW, ( no political party has a monopoly on the truth)

-R

arvid
06-13-2006, 07:13 PM
I fail to see what these laws have to do with the sudden outbursts of anti-americanism (even from americans). This can happen everywhere and anywhere.
Anywhere? Yeah in China and North Korea.

Seriously though, if a politician mentioned this over here he'd be asking for forgiveness on his knees before the evening, with lessons learned.
This thing can't be purely financial for the big ISP actors, I bet it's well grounded very high up in the ranks for various political reasons. Mostly this countries' fear for its own citizens and what they'll do with all their online freedom. Subtle supressions of humans rights combined with earning money sounds right up their alley.

cyartist
06-13-2006, 09:36 PM
Part of the problem is that Americans do not want to talk politics. If you even mention it they cover their ears or threaten to close down the discussion. If they studied history they would see this is how you lose the democracy you are now so enjoying.
They want to make nice. This subject has a political side to it and should be discussed.
If people debate here what is the problem?

charleyc
06-13-2006, 09:41 PM
Part of the problem is that Americans do not want to talk politics. If you even mention it they cover their ears or threaten to close down the discussion. If they studied history they would see this is how you lose the democracy you are now so enjoying.
They want to make nice. This subject has a political side to it and should be discussed.
If people debate here what is the problem?

Part of the problem is that religion, politics and such are debates that get heated very quickly, are generally full of baseless and many times uneducated opinions and do not in any way pertain to Computer Graphics. Therefore to keep things on a more civilized level, they are forbidden from being discussed here. In my opinion, having to hear all about what others feel in general about this or other countries should lie on the same level as religion and politics. They don't pertain to CG. There are a lot of forums on the web specifically made for these discussions. Not only can you discuss this stuff there, you will not get in trouble (I know this from experience :P ) and you will get people who are a lot more versed in these topics, thus ensuring a lot better discussion.

cyartist
06-13-2006, 09:45 PM
Democrat I am not Monk but nice try. I work in DC at times as well and many people in Washington are the most isolated people I ever met since moving from New York City.

However, I agree with you Pixel Monk vote them all out. Democrats and Replublicans.
What we need are new faces in both parties both Democrats and Replublicans.
Not paid off coporatecrats but politicians who are true to party values.

And once again, Both Houses and the Office is Republican controlled.
You do not need be in DC for 15 years to understand that fact. Sigh!

EpShot
06-13-2006, 09:47 PM
thread closed in 3... 2... 1....

RobertoOrtiz
06-13-2006, 09:48 PM
cyartist you should come to one of our DC SIGGRAPH meetings.

We are having one this Wednesday.


And yes charleyc is right. We are after all a WORLDWIDE forum. It is a very fine balancing act we do to keep this forum away from anarky.

-R

csmallfield
06-13-2006, 09:48 PM
This is obviously American laws being passed (or attempted to) but the greater problem isn't political, and isn't just "American Companies". Because most large coorporations don't consider themselves "American" they consider themselves International. Therein lies the problem, they move to whatever country that has loose enough laws to exploit the lowest income level that particular country has. If a coorporation like, say Wal-Mart had to follow American laws in all aspects of their buisness, they couldn't have sweat shops in China and South America making their products. Giant coorporations are starting to feel like they have to answer to no one but their stockholders.

I adamantly am against censorship, and taking the internet as a whole, and limiting the wealth of knowledge available for free and charging a viewing fee by the ISP (beyond monthly usage rates) is a form of censorship. It would be charging for content they didn't create. It's unknown how it would go down, but there are huge open spots for exploitation. And I can't switch ISP's unless I go back to dial-up (not happening). And I live in LA, it's not like I'm out in a rural area. So preventing ISP's from restricting the single greatest information resource mankind has created is pretty important to me.

On the topic of porn, if they are smart, they won't mess with it, since the internet is like 60% porn. If you took that out, of course impossible, the internet would collapse and progress would be slowed to a crawl as it's the driving force for all kinds of technology.

I want to say also that I love America, so much so that I hate seeing it change for the worse. Things may be worse in other countries, but that doesn't negate or lessen the importance of calling out opression when we see it. I'm very much not happy with the current set of people running things at the moment, and I've never been so suspicious of the stuff that group is telling us. Things might not be 3rd world crazy, but if you let things go, they only get worse.

-Chris

cyartist
06-13-2006, 09:54 PM
Part of the problem is that religion, politics and such are debates that get heated very quickly, are generally full of baseless and many times uneducated opinions and do not in any way pertain to Computer Graphics.

Part of the problem is that we post threads that are political then told how to respond.

Part of the problem is that we think the world is unconnected and CG is isolated.

Part of the problem is that we think everybody's opinion has no value. So they should silent. Even a fool has a spit of wisdom now and then.

RobertoOrtiz
06-13-2006, 10:04 PM
Wars are fought for less.

Besides the forums rules are there for a reason. If anyone wants new rules he or she should post their grievances on the suggestion thread.

-R

JohnD
06-13-2006, 10:15 PM
Democrat I am not Monk but nice try. I work in DC at times as well and many people in Washington are the most isolated people I ever met since moving from New York City.

However, I agree with you Pixel Monk vote them all out. Democrats and Replublicans.
What we need are new faces in both parties both Democrats and Replublicans.
Not paid off coporatecrats but politicians who are true to party values.

And once again, Both Houses and the Office is Republican controlled.
You do not need be in DC for 15 years to understand that fact. Sigh!

Republicans control the house...but I wouldn't say they control the senate. They may have a majority..but the democrats seem to have no trouble gathering enough votes to filibuster many issues. So saying that Republicans "control" both is not entirely accurate.

cyartist
06-13-2006, 10:21 PM
What issue have they filibustered? Do you know of any?

Even if they had power(which they do not) if they concede it to Republicans then I would deduct Republicans have the power.

RobertoOrtiz
06-13-2006, 10:28 PM
Last Warning.

-r

cyartist
06-13-2006, 10:32 PM
Everybody ReRead 1984

Now you can close it Roberto.

charleyc
06-13-2006, 10:33 PM
Part of the problem is that we post threads that are political then told how to respond.

Part of the problem is that we think the world is unconnected and CG is isolated.

Part of the problem is that we think everybody's opinion has no value. So they should silent. Even a fool has a spit of wisdom now and then.



It has to do with maturity and civility (both of which should be universal), not blind belief. All your (and anyone else's) opinions, factoids, passions...will not change the mind of another when it comes to these types of debates (this too I know from personal experience). Therefore they are in vein. That is why they are not allowed in a forum dedicated to computer graphics that has an immense diversity culturally, geographically, politically, professionally and in age. I want to know the news of the CG industry, but I don't care to hear others opinions about politics and such. I want to help others with their technical problems relating to the CG Indstry without dealing with someones attitude or bias against me or another because of these highly pregiducual issues. So it is not that I think your (or others) opinions have no value, I just think they have no value in the context topic of this community. Every professional place I worked had just about the exact same rules. They are there to avoid creating personal problems between co-workers (and in this case, co-members).

The majority of the problem is that we all like to be right in our own eyes. Participating in a civilized community (web based or in reality) requires us to have a large degree of self restraint and patience. If we lack these, not only do we tend to look like a fool in the eyes of others, we generally are unhappy with our circumstances.

JohnD
06-13-2006, 10:41 PM
What issue have they filibustered? Do you know of any?

Even if they had power(which they do not) if they concede it to Republicans then I would deduct Republicans have the power.
Filibustered 10 judge nominees. I don't know the exact number of successes...but those that didn't succeed, did delay an up or down vote. There were some other topics but I can't recall them offhand. My point is that you are saying the Democrats are powerless, when in fact they aren't. The judge nominees were the hot topic, and filibuster was used many times.

RobertoOrtiz
06-13-2006, 10:47 PM
It has to do with maturity and civility (both of which should be universal), not blind belief. All your (and anyone else's) opinions, factoids, passions...will not change the mind of another when it comes to these types of debates (this too I know from personal experience). Therefore they are in vein. That is why they are not allowed in a forum dedicated to computer graphics that has an immense diversity culturally, geographically, politically, professionally and in age. I want to know the news of the CG industry, but I don't care to hear others opinions about politics and such. I want to help others with their technical problems relating to the CG Indstry without dealing with someones attitude or bias against me or another because of these highly pregiducual issues. So it is not that I think your (or others) opinions have no value, I just think they have no value in the context topic of this community. Every professional place I worked had just about the exact same rules. They are there to avoid creating personal problems between co-workers (and in this case, co-members).


The majority of the problem is that we all like to be right in our own eyes. Participating in a civilized community (web based or in reality) requires us to have a large degree of self restraint and patience. If we lack these, not only do we tend to look like a fool in the eyes of others, we generally are unhappy with our circumstances.

Couls not have said it better myself...

With that...
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