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alex_m1s1n_user
06-03-2006, 08:05 AM
It's official and its coming straight from DreamWorks SKG cofounder Jeffrey Katzenberg's mouth.

"DreamWorks is very much looking at doing business in India," he told Animation 'xpress at the Cannes Film Festival where he was promoting Over the Hedge.

Katzenberg said he had been to India twice in the past nine months. "India is a very exciting place and has potential for great animation. We've been very impressed with the Indian animation community's enthusiasm to master the constantly changing tools of CG animation. We believe this eagerness will lead to the development of a highly skilled animation community."


....



http://www.animationxpress.com/anex/y2k6/headlines/anex836.htm

alex_m1s1n_user
06-03-2006, 08:08 AM
wtf?!:sad:... we;re totally f8ked with money now.

OneSharpMarble
06-03-2006, 08:22 AM
India is a very exciting place and has potential for great animation.

Yeah I am sure the much lower wages don't hurt either.

Breinmeester
06-03-2006, 08:36 AM
We've been very impressed with the Indian animation community's enthusiasm to master the constantly changing tools of CG animation.

Last time I checked, it wasn't about that. I hope Jeffrey will see this error in time before it sets him way behind on Pixar.

Szos
06-03-2006, 03:11 PM
Add Katzenberg to the list of traitors that is willing to sell out his country all to save a buck or two.

FloydBishop
06-03-2006, 04:12 PM
If I were him, I would keep the creative staff domestic.

At the risk of sounding melodramatic, during a time of war, for an American company to take work away from Americans to help lower your own overhead while building up the economy and work force of another country is borderline treason, in my opinion.

Dreamworks didn't go to the Christmas tree factory for "Father of the Pride" because they were a talented bunch. I ignored that show, and I can ignore other stuff, too. Again, vote with your ticket stubs and DVD purchases. Putting your heads in the sand and saying "everyone's doing it" only allows it to continue.

If the Indian animation community wants to be recognized as anything more than cheap labor, they need to create their own content on their own soil, similar to what is happening with the films coming out of Bolliwood. There are artists doing this right now, but all the press seems to go to the outsourcing stories instead. Check out Epiphany Films to see a great example of Indian animation:

http://www.epiphanyfilms.net/



Dreamworks needs to appreciate the US industry enough to use the US industry to create their content which is aimed at US audiences..

richcz3
06-03-2006, 04:28 PM
No one is owed a job in anything.
It's business and economics of companies that must produce a profit in an ever increasing competative market. I saw how people on this forum lambasted Hoodwinked and railed against the artists that posted here. (Freakin shameful).

Do you like the low prices your paying for electronics, computers, TV's, and the like?
For that matter the car you drive and the clothes on your back. Check the labels and the origin pf parts. Everything that was once made here is now produced overseas. CG animation is no different.

OneSharpMarble
06-03-2006, 05:59 PM
No one is owed a job in anything.
It's business and economics of companies that must produce a profit in an ever increasing competative market. I saw how people on this forum lambasted Hoodwinked and railed against the artists that posted here. (Freakin shameful).
Do you like the low prices your paying for electronics, computers, TV's, and the like?
For that matter the car you drive and the clothes on your back. Check the labels and the origin pf parts. Everything that was once made here is now produced overseas. CG animation is no different.

They aren't out sourcing so they can pass the savings onto the consumer, it is all going into their pocket. This is basically slave labour but it isn't in your front yard this time so everyone says "well the company has the right to make money"

What I find shameful is when someone stands up for this, if they paid the workers in India a good salary it wouldn't be so bad but then again they wouldn't get this work if that was the case.

Szos
06-03-2006, 06:28 PM
They aren't out sourcing so they can pass the savings onto the consumer, it is all going into their pocket. This is basically slave labour but it isn't in your front yard this time so everyone says "well the company has the right to make money"

I concur.

This is simply selling out your own country's future for the benefit of a large corporation. If they get a certain movie made for 1/10th the price compared to doing it in North America, are they also going to make the tickets cost 1/10th the amount?! Hell no! They never would do that - and instead pocket major amounts of money. Greed, plain and simple.

These people are traitors to their country, and anyone short-sighted enough to defend them is aiding and abetting such actions.


ANd this is not an anti-India post in the slightest bit...This country was not built on taking work away from other countries - it was built up by building up out own country and producing goods that people within this country purchased. If India wants to become an actual 1st world country, they should be building up their own industries - hell there are 1 Billion of them - they already have a massive home grown market to sell their goods in.

Dr Dardis
06-03-2006, 07:37 PM
At the risk of sounding melodramatic, during a time of war, for an American company to take work away from Americans to help lower your own overhead while building up the economy and work force of another country is borderline treason, in my opinion.

I dunno Floyd... that sounds a bit xenophobic (and melodramatic ;) ).

I study with a number of talented Indians who all work really hard, and dream of being in animated film production, working on the cutting edge, doing great work because that is their passion. The hurdles they have to overcome to achieve these ambitions (the same ambitions as yours or mine) are huge because of geography/nationality, and they are hopeful that this deal could mean something for their future as animators. You see red and "treason", they see opportunity to grow in their art. Just remember that when you say these kind of things it can indirectly hurt members on these boards, which are an international forum for discussion.

Anyway, that all sounds a bit preachy I know, and i do hate vanilla flavoured opinions :). 10 points for having strength of conviction mate! :thumbsup:

I just see the flipside of your arguments, thats all :). In many ways, the healthy industry in Australia owes a debt to the investment of US companies like Disney, FOX, EA etc (Its not a waterproof arguement of course as Disney AUS and EA AUS shutdown ;) ).

However, I would argue that they resulted in the production of more (and varied) content (ie Saturday disney cartoons, Aus specific sports titles) rather than the redistribution of US employment. It also resulted in a more skilled workforce, and stronger domestic products and a healthier regional industry. All this came with relatively little inconvenience to our mates in the US.

I really think US run studios in India are not going to hurt. It is certainly not a case of exploitation either. In the case of Rythm and Hues India, the salaries are very good I believe. Lots of rotoscoping though :(

Dreamworks needs to appreciate the US industry enough to use the US industry to create their content which is aimed at US audiences..

The audience for Dreamworks movies is very much international, because for the most part, they are great flicks! (except Sharktale, blech!!) :) It would be neat to see if "Dreamworks India" produce content FOR India, they could be some fun films too :), I am sure they could find an audience in a country of a billion or so folk.

Its a BIG world folks :)

I checked out epiphany films too, is good stuff!!! :thumbsup:

Over and out

Chris.

Dr Dardis
06-03-2006, 07:39 PM
These people are traitors to their country, and anyone short-sighted enough to defend them is aiding and abetting such actions.

That's just scary talk mate. There is patriotism, and then there is ....

Szos
06-03-2006, 08:25 PM
That's just scary talk mate. There is patriotism, and then there is ....

You mean "patriotism" like weakening your homeland by sending entire industries off to forgeign lands just to line your pockets?!?

Yup, that sounds like "patriotism" to me. :rolleyes:

Listen, no one in the US (and Canada) wants a free ride, but US companies have zero allegiance to their home country - even to the point of purposefully funding import/export laws that allow them to 'exploit' foreign labor all while laying off thousands of US employees that helped build up the company to begin with. Most European and Japanese companies would never even consider things that many US companies do on a daily basis. Not sure how Australia is when it comes to things like this, but the actions that US companies take now, weaken this country's labor market years into the future.

Dr Dardis
06-03-2006, 08:47 PM
Not sure how Australia is when it comes to things like this, but the actions that US companies take now, weaken this country's labor market years into the future.

Hi Szos

We mostly sell our resources and then buy back the manufactured goods at 4 times the price. Make for a nice big trade deficit :) oh well, it's a broken system, but i don't have the tools to fix it :) hahahah.

As for me quoting you, i think i should be explicit. There is patriotism, and there is... scary nationalism!

which is arguably where your comment was heading, and why I posted what i did.

This is Animation, and an animation/cg forum. Animation is our job, and we support our families with it, but it is supposed to be a supportive and creative industry. It is not time to start lining people up against the wall for treason just yet :) (I paraphrase of course ;) ).

Enjoy the weekend, and remember the world is full of folk who just want to get by and enjoy life at the same time :).

Chris.

ps. This will be my last post on the matter, lest we stray too far into the political realm and get stomped by the Mods :)

rakmaya
06-03-2006, 08:52 PM
LOL this all sounds so funny, but the people who are making money, the big share of all the profit is neither me nor anyone in this forum. It is only a matter of time before this happens, as motivation is never a product but the means to get what you want. For a business, that motivation is in the money they want to make. Maybe it is for good and maybe for bad, but either way, it is the perspective.


And for people who is saying they are a traitor, it means most Software Development companies all over the world would also be traitors. It still doesn't change the fact that here in US the capital the companies make is so huge compared most of the the other 1st world countries in many business, so it is natural that they get greedy.


So please do not start sentences like "If India wants", because goverment of any democratic country doesn't want anything like that and 200 employess from millions of people isn't gona make a difference for any country, but a 12-Million salary payed by Dreamworks does. So attention should be focus on business side rather than nationality and politics.

thomaspecht
06-03-2006, 08:55 PM
Most European and Japanese companies would never even consider things that many US companies do on a daily basis

don't know what those american companies do but in western europe, there are devstudios that have no art department anymore - except for an AD who supervises the outsourced artists in kiev or wolgograd, or wherever.

and i was pretty damn dissappointed to find countless "made in vietnam", "made in the philippines" stickers all over my new midrange digital camera, a japanese product - or so i thought initially. ;)

i guess at some point in the not too distant future, the companies that now take advantage of everything that globalization made possible, will have to choose between crawling back home in an attempt to save their home markets and their prestige or totally move on and instead manufacture and sell their goods elsewhere, because the way things are going, some populations won't be as rich as they used to much longer.

grrinc
06-03-2006, 09:03 PM
The Indians do have thier own growing cg market. I regularly chat to an Indian guy and his dream is to make Indian cg films, not western cg films. He knows the west are looking over to his country for cheap labour and he resents it. The CG market is growing in the east very rapidly and they have a good pool of talent to tap into, I wouldnt be suprised if Western companies got turned down soon. " No thanks, we are busy making our own films!! "

Especially as they see western story telling as a bit, well, lame.

mdee
06-03-2006, 09:08 PM
don't know what those american companies do but in western europe, there are devstudios that have no art department anymore - except for an AD who supervises the outsourced artists in kiev or wolgograd, or wherever.



So true. Even I am in eastern part of EU now, we (here, where I live) are too expensive, comparing to some other countries. I won't work for 500$ a month. Some people will and even kiss you for free.

Anyway, I don't mind it. Life is not about fairness, sooner you realize it, less stress you have. Being true to this statement I must say that I have never seen any good 3D animated feature film produced in India. Not yet at least. So all this talking about "enthusiastic community" is just pure BS.

In my opinion, if India or any other country with cheap labor can keep up with quality, everything will be outsourced sooer or later, maybe except Pixar and quick turnaround commercials. It's all about money.

From the other side that might be as well a beginning of the new dry cycle in the industry. One/two bad quality outsourced movies, bad boxoffices and we start mid 90's again

FloydBishop
06-03-2006, 09:15 PM
I dunno Floyd... that sounds a bit xenophobic (and melodramatic ;) ).

I study with a number of talented Indians who all work really hard, and dream of being in animated film production, working on the cutting edge, doing great work because that is their passion. The hurdles they have to overcome to achieve these ambitions (the same ambitions as yours or mine) are huge because of geography/nationality, and they are hopeful that this deal could mean something for their future as animators. You see red and "treason", they see opportunity to grow in their art. Just remember that when you say these kind of things it can indirectly hurt members on these boards, which are an international forum for discussion.

Anyway, that all sounds a bit preachy I know, and i do hate vanilla flavoured opinions :). 10 points for having strength of conviction mate! :thumbsup:

It's not xenophobic, as I'm not talking about the animators in India taking the work, I'm aiming at the studios that send it there in the first place. That is where the problem lies. If Dreamworks or some other company comes calling with a suitcase of money, why wouldn't the Indian companies agree to do the work?

I've worked in features, games, and television for a while now (I worked with Simi Nallaseth, now from Epiphany on "Ice Age" when we were at Blue Sky). I've seen the treatment of US workers in this industry get worse and worse each year. The animation unions are non existant in most shops, and if the artists and audiences don't start doing something about it, American animation will soon be executives only.

In my opinion, Indian animation should be built on the strengths of the animators and the culture of India. Bollywood was built this way. The talent and vision of Indian directors, actors, musicans, and the rest, creating Indian content for Indian audiences. Bollywood does not rely on outsourcing for it's lievlyhood, and the Indian animation community shouldn't either.

Papa Lazarou
06-03-2006, 09:47 PM
Globalisation is a 2-way street. The same big budget Hollywood-made movies play in countries all over the world. Why not let them be made elsewhere for a change? Whenever you save money with imported electronics(which are cheaper than ever before) you are participating in globalisation. Whenever you take a holiday in a country with a favourable exchange rate, you are participation in globalisation. Yet whenever the big companies do it, all of a sudden it's this big evil thing.

The other thing is that any money that goes to developing countries will help. I'm not in favour of sweatshops, but do you think people would work in them if they had better options? Really it is up to the governments of those countries to regulate their industries. Companies always prefer to deal with countries that have stable governments. I'm not saying these asian countries are devoid of corruption, but why do you think they get the business when developing countries in Africa and South America do not? We're all on the same planet folks. Isolationism helps nobody.

Dr Dardis
06-03-2006, 09:48 PM
The talent and vision of Indian directors, actors, musicans, and the rest, creating Indian content for Indian audiences. Bollywood does not rely on outsourcing for it's lievlyhood, and the Indian animation community shouldn't either.

Hi Floyd,

Point taken, i agree. But I also see that having both financial and intelectual investment from outside can give a big boost to the skilled userbase of the country, and I really don't believe that the US CG workplace will dry up into a barren wasteland on account of US investment in Indian production.

I just feel there is an imbalance in perception in some posts thats all. Percentage wise, a LOT more work seems to be shipped to Aus and NZ (through compeditive bidding). That fact just doesn't seem to raise the ire of people as much as the Indian issue. It is not touted as "Job selling" when Animal Logic produces a Warner Brothers movie for example, when really it is the same thing.

This is not an invitation to "have at" AL btw :) hahaha They kick @ss

anyway, on a personal note, I have kept track of your posts over the years, and they are always fun and mostly rational ;) I myself only really post when I feel strongly about something, so talk of "treason" got you a bite ;) its not a personal attack, just a debate :thumbsup:

all the best

Chris

robcat2075
06-03-2006, 09:55 PM
A completely unsurprising development.

But in the full article Katzenberg claims


...that Dreamworks foray into India would not be in the form of outsourcing. "It will be definitely more than that.


What would that be? Making Indian animation for the Indian market? Does a nation of 1 billion people really need Jeffery K to show them how to do that? Wouldn't they be doing that already if they wanted that?

Dr Dardis
06-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Globalisation is a 2-way street. The same big budget Hollywood-made movies play in countries all over the world. Why not let them be made elsewhere for a change? Whenever you save money with imported electronics(which are cheaper than ever before) you are participating in globalisation. Whenever you take a holiday in a country with a favourable exchange rate, you are participation in globalisation. Yet whenever the big companies do it, all of a sudden it's this big evil thing.

The other thing is that any money that goes to developing countries will help. I'm not in favour of sweatshops, but do you think people would work in them if they had better options? Really it is up to the governments of those countries to regulate their industries. Companies always prefer to deal with countries that have stable governments. I'm not saying these asian countries are devoid of corruption, but why do you think they get the business when developing countries in Africa and South America do not? We're all on the same planet folks. Isolationism helps nobody.

Great Post Papa!

But i know why folk get upset too, people want to keep working on good projects and feed their families. It costs more to live in the US so the salaries are higher, its sad then when people have to worry about their future because of their current prosperity.

Its not an easily fixable situation. Just makes for more competition, so you have to take personal responsibility and hone your chops IMHO :) If your work is strong, you stand a better chance.

Getting angry at the moneymen (as hard as those buggers can be) doesn't help either, because without them, we would have to rely on the organisational and financial minds of the artists. I think we can all agree the job market would be MUCH smaller if that were the case :).

So Katzenburg is a bad greedy person? There would be no dreamworks without him. But... without the artists, he would be no-one, right? So we are all bedfellows by necessity. Like 2 old grumpy people in an old loveless marriage, but damned if they can live without eachother ;) hahahahaha

Chris

ps. Interesting thread.

richcz3
06-03-2006, 11:50 PM
Look at the histories of US Textiles, Electroncs, Steel....get used to it.
It's been happening for over 40 decades here in the US alone. And the end all be all is you do pay less.

Where are all the people crying about Los Angeles jobs going to Canada??...Uhhh.
So when a job goes to the Philipines, Malaysia, or India it becomes something to do with greed?

Heck even Levis Straus; an American Icon was operating in Canada. No surprise when they shut down their Canadian plants to move to cheaper locales it was meant for calls of corporate greed. "You can do it to them but you shouldn't do it to us". LOL . THat's not a shot at Canadians, but a shot on the idea that somehow some nations aren't suited for the same opportunities.

The notion that there are a select few people lining their pockets with hoardes of $$$ is an absurd notion. If your competition is making changes on a global level, you need to lead or follow suit.

Bonedaddy
06-04-2006, 01:28 AM
Um, this is a global forum, y'all. Maybe think an extra second or two before hitting post? I've seen more than a couple people from India posting around here.

The "traitor" talk, I think, is uncalled for. But I don't want any part in some political flamewar, or some political groupthink, so on that note, I'm heading out from this convo. Just remember this is a global forum and many different nationalities might be reading what you're writing.

bblackbourn
06-04-2006, 02:22 AM
Glass half-full observation...

1: Foreign outsourcing or co-production (that potentially attract subsidies) can reduce the cost of a production.

2: This reduced production cost means more niche or non-mainstream animated films can be made.

ie if you can make a decent/funny/entertaining CG film for US$10 Million, then all sorts of films that would only make say US$40 Million with worldwide box office & DVD sales can be profitable.

There's a lot of really intresting scripts out there now that would never get greenlit at the major studios (US$70 million prod budget + US$50 million marketing budget) going down this route.

Good luck to everyone on animated projects all over the world! I can't wait to see the results of these new opportunities. Bring em on!

RobertoOrtiz
06-04-2006, 02:25 AM
People keep in mind we are in an international forum.


Keep it civil.
-R

Flog
06-04-2006, 02:25 AM
Bonedaddy is right guys, this is an international forum. I have seen bad posts stating lack of talent or skill from India artists. We should not discriminate against someone's location or country.

Yes they may be cheaper labor but that is due to cost of living in their country. I cannot help that someone in INdia's rent may be $200 and mine is 900. It's cost of living. So don't just think of them as "CHEAP" labor. IN calling them cheap labor you are in fact calling them cheap.

Leave that kind of thinking to evil corporations, do not stoop. They want in the world of animation just as much as you do. The more they outsource the more your going to have to sell your skills. Another idea is why work for the man, and instead be the man. Why not follow suite and outsource work yourself? Start you a studio?

Skill is not based on race or location, remember that, so let us please avoid comments about India's skill level.

I know it is tough when jobs are outsourced but there are the good and the bad to both sides of the story. But let us carry ourselves with dignity and not cheapen others.

eek
06-04-2006, 02:34 AM
Its good to know people understand the economic of global captolism and that America's has more overseas investment than inland going from 60 to 80% last year alone with most of it coming from europe and asia. The steel crisis? the port issue? China is charging and India is on the catch up. Global economics is very very complicated, id read a few greenberg books, maybe 'the aflunent society' to get a understanding of it. Its the same with the UK, as to most of its gas supply with come from overseas by 2010 - the alantic is running out.

Theres a few outsourcers in mumbai, R&H being one.

As Bonedaddy reminds us all, this is a forum for the people and no place for Patriotism - as we should be discussing the art and not the politics.

cheers,

alivegy
06-04-2006, 03:16 AM
Don't blame the fx houses for having to persue lower cost options, blame the multi-billion dollar studio's that are more often refusing to pay for quality work.

FloydBishop
06-04-2006, 03:29 AM
Why all the lectures? I don't think any of the discussion so far in this thread has been out of line so far.

I think some may be confusing my feelings toward outsourcing American animation as feelings toward Indian animation, or more specifically, Indian animators. That is not the case.

There are many talented Indian animators. I've worked with more than a few here in the US. I linked to one Indian company that does great work, and I'm sure there are dozens more.

The fact is, American companies ARE sending work to India because it is "cheap labor". It costs less to have their production animated there. I'm sure there are all kinds of financial insentives for the studios to do so, outside of the lower cost of living. This does not make the animators cheap in the sense of skill level, but only in financial terms. They work for less pay than American animators. Less pay = less money. It is cheaper to have your project animated in India. See?

Dreamworks is an American company. In my opinion, American animation studios should animate their films here in the United States. How is this line of reasoning not valid or considered a hot button topic? As an American animator, that's just the way I feel. I'm sure anyone from any country can relate to that. This goes for any other place outside of the USA, including Canada, South Korea, Austraila, etc.

d_jnaneswar
06-04-2006, 09:24 AM
Dreamworks to India! Hurray!

When do I get to work with you Dreamworks! I cant wait!
Yippie!!! Finally the world opens its eyes to potential!!! And we in India get to do some real work!! Rythm and Hues India is already doing an awsome job and improving the community and deliver top notch goods...

Give us a chance and we could prove that we can be awsome animators too.. so far its been 10 sec a day jobs here and we are doing a wonderful job at delivering great quality stuff considering the deadline tightness and less pay (Pet aliens is by far, by very far, the best 3d animated series that I have seen...). And DQ (www.Dataquestinfoway.com (http://www.dataquestinfoway.com/)) has bagged so many awards and so is Crest studios, I cant believe that it took so long to see the potential.
And you guys who think India is all about cheap quality work, check out www.cgtantra.com (http://www.cgtantra.com/) .
Two artists were selected to Expose and other books and at Cannes Gita Reddy rocked the place with her shortfilm (animated) - Printed Rainbow.

I know it sounds pretty bad for our American cousins and feel sorry for them, but hey, competition is competition.. We need jobs too.

cheers! this thread made my day!

dj

d_jnaneswar
06-04-2006, 09:29 AM
Globalisation is a 2-way street. The same big budget Hollywood-made movies play in countries all over the world. Why not let them be made elsewhere for a change? Whenever you save money with imported electronics(which are cheaper than ever before) you are participating in globalisation. Whenever you take a holiday in a country with a favourable exchange rate, you are participation in globalisation. Yet whenever the big companies do it, all of a sudden it's this big evil thing.

The other thing is that any money that goes to developing countries will help. I'm not in favour of sweatshops, but do you think people would work in them if they had better options? Really it is up to the governments of those countries to regulate their industries. Companies always prefer to deal with countries that have stable governments. I'm not saying these asian countries are devoid of corruption, but why do you think they get the business when developing countries in Africa and South America do not? We're all on the same planet folks. Isolationism helps nobody.

Beautifully said.
dj

down2earth
06-04-2006, 11:01 AM
Hello there Cg peeps..

seeing India as a topic of this discussion naturally aroused my interest for the very fact that im an Indian. i understand that some people are obviously not happy about the Dreamworks plan of outsourcing. some of my friends here (richcz3, drdardis,papa lazarou) have given very articulate and thoughful expressions into the working of global economies. cheers 4 that :)

just wanted to tell my friends here that life in a country with 1 billion people is not easy. itsssss daaaaaaaaamn tough man !!! our government does not provide social security, we don't get pampered with unemployment allowance and when we get old we probably won't have enough savings to take care of our funeral. can you imagine a life like that ?? give it a thought my disheartened friends.. is your situation really that bad ? i don't think so.. if it is then i would call India a developed country and so will you guys :)

and by the way if i get a job with Dreamworks i would just grab it even if it was in the North Pole :) woudn't you ?

cheer up guys !!! life ain't that bad ... not so gud either :( but u gotta live and let live !

rakmaya
06-04-2006, 12:17 PM
The beauty of all these posts is that people only complains when it happens to them. Believe it or not, there are other fields in the industry that suffers more that CG artists. Most CG artists and TDs are professionals concentrated in one area and because of that it shows up more and are easy to get work. I know of programmers who have to serach for work every 3 months. Think how hard it is in US if you have a family. Most of you guys who complain now just looked at that situation, poked it, said something and were done.

If you want to make your time useful with these issues, there are other places that you should complain. Writing in the Forum doesn't help a bit. Down the road, high cost of living hurts everyone at somepoint in time. CG wasn't a popular industry in India until the last few years. So when it does get popular, it does what it did to every other fields that we know of.

Breinmeester
06-04-2006, 01:13 PM
I don't understand all the protectionism in these kind of matters. American products collect big dollar from abroad. If other countries can be let in to share the wealth, to me that's only a good thing. When the market will stabalize it will become more about good products then what country it is produced in. It isn't slave labour as these Indian animators will probaply earn enough to have a decent living. Why would it be okay for companies like McDonalds, Coca Cola and Microsoft to rake in heaps of money from every country in the world, and yet it's considered treason if some work is outsourced to one of those countries, whose economy could really use it by the way. I just don't get that. Share the wealth, I say.
(I will leave Floyd's war comment alone, because that's a whole different story and I know these forums don't handle that kind of story well.)


I do believe it's not a smart move as I'm sure it will effect the content and that's not something Dreamworks needs now that they're well on their way to catching up with Pixar. I thing it's not so smart short term business thinking.

Lone Deranger
06-04-2006, 02:19 PM
Cheaper labour + Same ticket prices = More cash for the super rich fat cat studio bosses.... 'cos lets face it.... that's the fundamental reason behind this decision. So yes.. I can really see how this is a good thing. :thumbsup:

PhilOsirus
06-04-2006, 02:51 PM
If people in India don't start making their own shows without the support of foreign companies they will find themselves in the same situation soon and the standard of living starts to rise. The same foreign companies will consider making movies in India too expensive, and overnight they'll move elsewhere. But unlike some believe, not all governments actually want better standard of living for their people, because they want to keep recieving money without taking their responsabilities.

FloydBishop
06-04-2006, 03:18 PM
Give us a chance and we could prove that we can be awsome animators too.. so far its been 10 sec a day jobs here and we are doing a wonderful job at delivering great quality stuff considering the deadline tightness and less pay (Pet aliens is by far, by very far, the best 3d animated series that I have seen...).

"Pet Aliens" looks better than most television CG at the moment. I also like the look of "Jakers!", which I believe is done by Crest.

http://mag.awn.com/issue8.08/8.08images/3,4,5_jakers.jpg

padib
06-04-2006, 08:21 PM
There's two sides to it.

1. As an American worker, I'm miffed that SOME of these jobs could be going over seas. As an American consumer, I don't have to support it. After all, we buy the products, invest in their stocks. Word of mouth is a powerful weapon.


2. On the flip side however, if I should want to start my own small studio, outsourcing is a wonderful way to start. If Dreamworks wants to train my workers, better for me!


Now here is the reality of it. Where I work, they send the artwork to be done in Texas. Lower cost of living than on the coasts. The product suffers because there isn't the collaboration that happens when two people from the same culture collaborate face to face and share a common language and experience. Those ordering graphics don't like the system and try to circumvent it when possible, or go without because it's not worth the trouble. Often times when the artwork comes back, its not what they envisioned and are unhappy with the results. Unnessary time an engery is spent trying to work around the distance between the producer and the artist filling the order. Were talking about outsourcing in our own country too.




We are creators. We should NEVER just fill orders. We should never be used as a tool or pile of technical skills. We should always bring something to the table. THAT is what makes having on staff artists powerful. Just being able to walk over the your neighbors workstation and ask for tips, or give feedback and ideas is incredibly important and leads to a better product. So to those of us who work for our local animation house, make yourself valuable.

Digitalwool
06-04-2006, 08:57 PM
This is an incredibly complicated issue. Do I like the idea of my job going somewhere else because a worker there is willing to work for nearly nothing? No. Do I like the idea of paying less for a product? Yes. Do I actually pay less for my movies or games? I don't seem to. Do I like the idea of someone in India doing rotoscope instead of me? Heck yeah! Do I like the idea of them being a rendering technician instead of me? Heck no! -I like that job-

There will be jobs created and jobs lost through this type of thing, but I think from my personal experience with outsourcing that there are generally so many problems through lack of communication and poor quality issues that there will always be a demand for an in-house workforce.

kursad_pileksuz
06-04-2006, 09:29 PM
interesting,
All these years US pushed for globalism, and now you are complaining about it? I think you should have thought about this 100 years ago. Globalism was alright while you had enjoyed cheap everything, but now you do not like it?

I think that you are overall wrongly informed, because saying that US is not taking away jobs is not true. I will give you examples like Mcdonalds and Burgerking etc. These corporations killed millions of local businesses around the world for example.

Instead of complaining about how unpatriotic they are, maybe you should stop buying their products, watching their movies and investing with them. That can be a good start for people who are not happy with these companies.


I concur.

This is simply selling out your own country's future for the benefit of a large corporation. If they get a certain movie made for 1/10th the price compared to doing it in North America, are they also going to make the tickets cost 1/10th the amount?! Hell no! They never would do that - and instead pocket major amounts of money. Greed, plain and simple.

These people are traitors to their country, and anyone short-sighted enough to defend them is aiding and abetting such actions.


ANd this is not an anti-India post in the slightest bit...This country was not built on taking work away from other countries - it was built up by building up out own country and producing goods that people within this country purchased. If India wants to become an actual 1st world country, they should be building up their own industries - hell there are 1 Billion of them - they already have a massive home grown market to sell their goods in.

Obraxis
06-04-2006, 09:33 PM
"Pet Aliens" looks better than most television CG at the moment. I also like the look of "Jakers!", which I believe is done by Crest.

http://mag.awn.com/issue8.08/8.08images/3,4,5_jakers.jpg

Note this model was helped made by Peder Kallin of Sweden while working in the UK. Animation however im not sure about.

d_jnaneswar
06-04-2006, 10:15 PM
My friends worked on it.. Animation was done in India.. pretty sure.

mmkelly011881
06-04-2006, 10:43 PM
anyone think that maybe they're talking about building for making animated movies for the Indian market?

something that might cater more to that demographic? cant go wrong with a BILLION customers

am i an idiot for thinking this? or just naiive

jdsb
06-04-2006, 11:04 PM
this is wonderful for the indian animation industry.wow, i am really happy with this, the future for the already exploding cg-industry is great:)

Njen
06-05-2006, 12:42 AM
Might I put another perspective on this debate, is that many CG companies hire internationally to fill their positions because they can't find the staff within their own country.

My point is that if it wasn't for talented CG artists from different countries around the globe, the US CG industry would not be as good as it is today because of the contributions from these artists and programmers.

xynaria
06-05-2006, 03:12 AM
A point to consider here perhaps.
Animation outsourcing has been taking place since the eighties that I know of and possibly before..Simpsons anyone?
In traditional 2D animation, Warners, Disney and Amblin have all had studios in London at one point or another and not just because of skills available but that labour costs were approximately half of in America. London is awash with CG work from many major American movies but I don't hear anyone cry..Hey that's terrible..that's unfair..that's outsourcing.

Papa Lazarou
06-05-2006, 03:42 AM
It's been going on since as early as the fifties, I believe.

andy_maxman
06-05-2006, 04:21 AM
this most certainly is very sweet news...

are there any links to the DW's India plans..?
:)

andy_maxman
06-05-2006, 04:33 AM
oops!
*doublePost*

Firefox
06-05-2006, 07:54 AM
That is an AWESOME news....and if you guys read the article they have mentioned that it wont be just an outsourcing studio. I am sure they will develop their own IP.. which is good.

Ohh!! and as for Jakers!! i was working on it in the first season myself. We got all the concepts from US and developed all assests inhouse in Crest Animation Studios upto the final renders...

Any news about which city Dreamworks is planning to open the studio in..

I better prepare my reel for Dreamworks.. signing off

cheers

mdee
06-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Hello there Cg peeps..


just wanted to tell my friends here that life in a country with 1 billion people is not easy. itsssss daaaaaaaaamn tough man !!! our government does not provide social security, we don't get pampered with unemployment allowance and when we get old we probably won't have enough savings to take care of our funeral. can you imagine a life like that ?? give it a thought my disheartened friends.. is your situation really that bad ? i don't think so.. if it is then i would call India a developed country and so will you guys :)

and by the way if i get a job with Dreamworks i would just grab it even if it was in the North Pole :) woudn't you ?

cheer up guys !!! life ain't that bad ... not so gud either :( but u gotta live and let live !


See, I live in the part of the world which isn't easy as well. Maybe not like your country, maybe the same, I don't know India well enough to tell.

However, this is not a point.

The point is that companies go all around and outsource, not because they want to help underdeveloped countries and look good, but because they want to produce their stuff cheaper. This is main reason. World is made that way that some regions are cheaper. Companies go there.

It hurts both sides on artist/programmer/whatever level. Pontentially one side lose some percentage of the jobs, the other side gets some, but for much less money, probably devaluating salaries of original side as well . In the end it's artists who get the short side of the stick. Production people, who sit behind the computer screens doing their jobs, not execs.


Of course India has great potential, even statisticaly wise and you guys are just smart and hardworking nation (coming from personal expriences). And I am pretty sure that sooner or later you will produce the highest quality production art possible. I don't know what kind of money outsourcing companies offer there. But if it is even 15% less than current US standards it's devaluation of the artist work. Of course there is cost of living difference, but then there is quality of living difference.

So, just welcome outsourcing companies with open arms and start asking for US standard salaries, because I am 100% sure the quality of work will be up to the US standards very soon if it isn't on this level now already. Let's think from artist side of view not from the nation or whatever other point.


PS. Maybe I am just wrong and US and other countries in India offer US level salaries to the artists.

Flog
06-05-2006, 03:30 PM
So, just welcome outsourcing companies with open arms and start asking for US standard salaries, because I am 100% sure the quality of work will be up to the US standards very soon if it isn't on this level now already. Let's think from artist side of view not from the nation or whatever other point.

PS. Maybe I am just wrong and US and other countries in India offer US level salaries to the artists

Are you saying they should pay India artist as much as one you pay in the US, or are you talking same quality but adjusted for cost of living? Because if they pay them exactly the same they wouldn't be going over there to India unless the work is superb. I mean it does still come down to skill why you use folks, but then again your talking about large companies. Honestly they are looking for cheaper labor.

I do agree they should pay equivalent per cost of living. You have to remember things are cheaper and cost of living is cheaper. I think they should get equivalent though per cost of living. Quality of life type pay.

That is how it works even domestically. People in California get paid more than people in Texas. Even within Texas, people from Austin, Houston, Dallas get paid more than someone in Podunk Prairie town Texas.

Where I live in Texas, cost of living is much higher than my hometown. In my hometown you can buy a nice house for 35,000-55,000 dollars.

In Austin houses start at 100,000 for the same type house. Of course working in Austin people get paid more to compensate for that cost of living at the same time if I live in those smaller towns I would not get the same Austin pay. It's just economics. You should pay fair according to that cost of living.

mdee
06-05-2006, 03:54 PM
Are you saying they should pay India artist as much as one you pay in the US, or are you talking same quality but adjusted for cost of living? Because if they pay them exactly the same they wouldn't be going over there to India unless the work is superb. I mean it does still come down to skill why you use folks, but then again your talking about large companies. Honestly they are looking for cheaper labor.


The differences in cost of living and quality of living in different regions of US are much much smaller, than (I assume) between India and US, even if domestic differences seem big inside US. I can compare my country and US (I know both pretty well) and this is a difference between not being able to buy a new car or not being able to afford to get enough food and cover expenses of a place to live, or having money for your own funeral (as was said above - that's true). I know that people in the middle of Nebraska will probably get paid less, but not 500% or or so less. That's why companies go to India or China, not to Nebraska to open new businesses. The differences are huge, beyond perception of anyone who never lived in both countries.

With low cost of living there comes extremely low quality of living. When outsourcing company goes there, their (Indians or wherever they choose to go) quality of living won't improve that much, only a bit, because as we all know they are looking for cheap labor. So, from the artist point of view (no matter the place or nationality), we lose, or at the best gain nothing ot very little.


So, yes they should pay them US salaries. I know very well about economy etc.. but I wasn't talking about that. I can care less about shareholders, execs and profit making. Here, we are artists, who happen to love what we do and want to support ourselves and our families doing it. So, yes they should start asking for US level salaries, because it's pretty ovbious they can (or will shortly) do the same quality work. That way the competition would be fair, no one would get hurt. Maybe some exec would earn a million less here or there ;).

P.S. Please take my post with grain of salt, I know it's idealistic and naive and most probably will never work unless some form of miracle happen :)

Flog
06-05-2006, 04:19 PM
P.S. Please take my post with grain of salt, I know it's idealistic and naive and most probably will never work unless there is some form of miracle happen

It's all cool bro! :) Feel free to speak your opinion. It is not idealistic in the long run.

Currently I think big companies are taking advantage of cheaper labor and with no regard for those people. They are gettiing paid low wages even in their own country to do a professionals job.

Although I do believe in adjustment per cost of living. It should be fair. If a cg artist in the US is paid a good wage, enough to buy a car, a nice home, and be able to function well then that same level artist in India, China, etc should have the same level of quality of life. If someone in a more developed country is middle class then someone in a following country should have the same level.

Here is the bad part about economics though and the good part. If the salaries were the same they would not take that business to other countries. If they had to pay the same price as you mentioned it would be even worse because then they'd have to add a few more costs of that including traveling abroad to oversea work, importing, etc. So a company is not going to do that. It would not be worth it, they would simply find home talent.

However....

as things stand now, you are seeing many countries and regions paying serious dues. As they pay these dues via cheap labor you are seeing a growing industry in many of these countries. As time goes on cost of living goes up, but then wages do start rising and quality of life goes up. And now a country who never had a CG industry now has a thriving one. And sooner or later it becomes self sustaining. You should see how many news articles in the US concerning China and other Asia Pacific countries growing financially. The reports show that in APAC more people are on the internet and more advanced technology than the average family in the US. They are developing and fast. Even on the news you see some of the fears these analyst have of China becoming a world power financially. And think US has been shipping cheap labor there for years.

Eventually things will balance out. One of these days you'll see India and China outsourcing to the US or in the more near future you will see an emergence of films in each region and a growth of an industry that stands on it's own. And then outside of being cheap labor they will simply be skilled workers competing in a world market.

Japan is one example, they have been outsourcing to Korea for years, now Korea is coming up in producing quality animations themselves.

I do think some companies are evil and unfair though to who they hire, that is not a doubt in my mind. Anything to make a buck. They are not happy with 1 million dollars a year, they need 1.5 million.

jdsb
06-05-2006, 04:34 PM
I They are gettiing paid low wages even in their own country to do a professionals job.

I would disagree with you on that point,i think the big studios are paying an excellent salary and benefits plan.The indian cg industry is experiencing great growth at the moment and jobs in good places pay VERY well according to indian currency.It might not be equivalent (*45) in indian currency but its excellent anyhow.

Stahlberg
06-05-2006, 05:20 PM
In the long term outsourcing can only help developing nations develop faster. We want that right? Anyone here who wants to keep the poorer nations poor, raise your hand.

amygdalae
06-05-2006, 05:42 PM
Yes, let's 'develop' every nation everywhere and spew more shit into the environment and use exponentially more natural resources worldwide.

Whoever decided that the US is the model economy by which every person on earth should live?
I dont even think the environment can bear it. 7 billion people is quite alot.

Stahlberg
06-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Whoever decided that the US is the model economy by which every person on earth should live?
So what's your suggestion? We kill off 5 or 6 billion and the remainder go live in caves?

JMcWilliams
06-05-2006, 06:41 PM
So what's your suggestion? We kill off 5 or 6 billion and the remainder go live in caves?

No, i think he means that maybe we should stop eating all the pies. ;) We could live a comfortable existance without all the waste, polluting and over indulgence. That does not mean no computers or cars, just more responsible use of it all.

That does not have to mean caves. :D I'm no green party member or anything of the sort, but it goes without saying that you need to give and not just take from the environment that supports us (or at least not take too much).

Lets face it... we have it damn good in developed countries.... damn good.

If someone cheaper takes my job away i'll go and do something else and do art in my spare time as usual. :shrug: Such is life. But I'm not too sure thats going to happen, to be honest.

Outsourcing has been common at the place I work for some time (years in fact), we still have just as many in house artists to do the groundwork.

Maybe others have different tales though?

richcz3
06-05-2006, 07:02 PM
For simplicity sake, it's about competition.
Unless all the major and even smaller studios decided to hold a moratorium on sending work outside their own borders, you could be sure that these foreign studios would spring up regardless. It has happened before it will happen again. It is a business neccesity.
It has less to do with greed and more to do with surviving in a global business climate.

I'll even add some irony about jobs shipping abroad. My foreign car was built here in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Irony because GM is on the border of Bankruptcy. So in a global economy, What goes around can come around. It's simply too easy to look at what jobs leaves vs what job opportunities come in.

vfxdude2
06-05-2006, 07:39 PM
I have a story...

I used to work in the semiconductor industry in Silicon Valley. (Changed careers for the better ;-)

For a *very* brief period of time between, say, 2001 and 2005 maybe, outsourcing to India and Eastern Europe was the thing to do. Lots of companies did this because they thought it would save them money.

India, in particular, has developed an infrastructure for doing semiconductor design (NOT manufacturing -- that's all in Taiwan and has been for some time), including developing world-class universities to train people.

So, it looked good on paper...

BUT... in reality, here's what happened:
1) The communication and travel difficulties were substantial. It was very difficult to run projects across multiple continents. This caused companies to incur huge travel costs, and often ended up lowering the quality of the design since the engineers couldn't communicate as easily.

2) The more important factor -- the wages in India INCREASED sharply. At first, a company could hire an Indian engineer for much less than a Silicon Valley engineer. But after a very short time, they exhausted the supply of qualified Indian engineers.

At that point, of course, the Indian engineers began to ask for more money. (Why not? They're doing the same work). So, the real cost savings began to decrease very quickly.

In other words, the labor market equalized.

Now, the push to outsource in the semiconductor industry has diminished. Companies still do it, but not as often.


A friend of mine -- a Canadian friend -- had a good theory about exactly where the equalization point is. According to him, Canadians make about 60% as much as Americans for the same jobs. Yet, there is little outsourcing to Canada in spite of open borders, easy transportation, and NAFTA.

So, if a company can't save more than 40% by outsourcing, it won't do it; that's the break-even point.


I imagine the same thing will hold true for VFX/CG companies. It might seem like a good idea at first, but after a while, all the talent will be eaten up and the wages will equalize.


People have cited the fact that manufacturing has been "outsourced" for years. This is really a different scenario; there are many other factors at play, there. First of all, manufacturing jobs don't generally require the skills which "white collar" jobs do, so there's a much larger pool of labor. Second, there are all sorts of issues pertaining to the supply chain. In other words, where are the raw materials coming from, and to whom are the finished products being sold? A steel manufacturing company may, for instance, find it cheaper to purchase and transport their raw materials in another country -- it might not be an issue of labor at all.

We've seen the reverse of this happen as well. As many people know, many "foreign" cars are now manufactured in the US and Canada. Honda Civics, for example, are domestic cars. Why? Because it's less expensive to manufacture them where they're going to be sold rather than having to transport them across the ocean.


So, there are many forces at play in the globalization process. Things push back and forth.


Frankly, Dreamworks isn't exactly the bellweather of the animation business. Sure, they make some good movies and have very impressive technology, but their business model is a bit shaky. Their most recent release -- Over the Hedge -- isn't doing nearly as well as they expected. JK's announcement about outsourcing was probably intended to impress investors (remember -- Dreamworks Animation is a publicly traded company unrelated to Dreamorks SKG). Dreamworks SKG is owned by Paramount.


I think we'll all have to wait and see how this shakes out...

-vfxdude

mjr000
06-05-2006, 08:07 PM
Thanks bro, for that uplifting post, i think my life goes better when i look at the glass a little empty full instead of half empty and draining....

:)

Have a Good One:thumbsup:

albedo4800hp
06-06-2006, 08:23 AM
I concur.

This is simply selling out your own country's future for the benefit of a large corporation. If they get a certain movie made for 1/10th the price compared to doing it in North America, are they also going to make the tickets cost 1/10th the amount?! Hell no! They never would do that - and instead pocket major amounts of money. Greed, plain and simple.

These people are traitors to their country, and anyone short-sighted enough to defend them is aiding and abetting such actions.


ANd this is not an anti-India post in the slightest bit...This country was not built on taking work away from other countries - it was built up by building up out own country and producing goods that people within this country purchased. If India wants to become an actual 1st world country, they should be building up their own industries - hell there are 1 Billion of them - they already have a massive home grown market to sell their goods in.

I don't know although I'll agree with the stuff most people saying I just can deny to find it a bit amusing especially when I hear these things from people living in the States. Living in the country which broadcasts and shows the truest form of greedy capitalism in the world and always defending it as being a great economic system but when it starts hurting yourself people suddenly start screaming! Well maybe you should have thought about what you did to the world by spreading your ideas to before complaining. And when other countries want to pick the raisins out of the cake you suddenly act like a spoiled child by saying no no no that's unfair you do not play by the rules.

Face it free market capitalism will destroy the world!

down2earth
06-06-2006, 08:49 AM
Lets face it... we have it damn good in developed countries.... damn good.

If someone cheaper takes my job away i'll go and do something else and do art in my spare time as usual. :shrug: Such is life. But I'm not too sure thats going to happen, to be honest.

Outsourcing has been common at the place I work for some time (years in fact), we still have just as many in house artists to do the groundwork.

Maybe others have different tales though?


I have been following the post for a couple of days and I agree with many people that the quality of CG work won't be the same as you can get it done in North America but i think thats how it will be in the initial phase. It is pretty obvious that you guys will do it better coz have been into it for a much longer time. How bout Yoga been taught better in India than anywhere else coz the damn thing started there but it is practiced widely in the western world now in many different forms and styles !

Anyway, there is something which i really found a bit hard to digest. Lot of people here feel that the outsourcing is being done only because it is a 'CHEAPER' option. C'mon guys wake up ! When companies go overseas to invest billions of dollars, im sure they look for a little bit more than just cheap labour !

Here's a bit of news for people who aren't aware of whats happening on the other side of the globe...

- China and India has been consistently maintaining the highest economic growth in the world since 2005 ( 9.9% and 7.6% respectively )

- USA growth rate stagnating at 3.5%, Japan at 2.7%, UK at 1.8%, France at 1.4%, Germany at 0.9% ( the G-8 countries are not really at their best levels )

- China's main strength is infrastructural development which help them to set up businesses within no time. Their manufacturing industry needs no mention. Whether its Nike or Sony its got to be made in China. They also have a well developed IT sector, their only negative factor is that most Chinese people speak Chinese or Mandarin. And guess what they are learning English. Thats what I would call a true super power and they don't even boast about it !

- India's main strength is a vast number of highly skilled and English speaking IT and IT-ES (IT Enabled Services which includes CG) professionals. The current annual revenue of the IT industry is US$ 36 Billion (28% annual growth rate) with close 1.3 million IT professionals at the moment. The IT-ES industry is catching up fast with a massive growth rate of 48%. Current annual revenue stands at US$ 6.3 Billion, employing around 400,000 people at the moment.

I hope I have given a bit of an insight why companies are looking east for better business whether they are in the animation or sanitation business :)

The thing about artists getting low pay in India is in fact a bit of crap. I agree that you can't match the salaries with the US but if you're in the IT/IT-ES industry you can get paid more than someone in the US which is why the number of Indian IT professionals working in the US is falling pretty sharply as compared to 90's. Feel free to counter-check the facts I have provided. Speak up, but speak with facts to support your theory, just don't shoot your arrows blindly !

JMcWilliams
06-06-2006, 12:55 PM
Not sure why my post was picked out, I was defending outsourcing for the most part :D

Well, from speaking to people who deal with outsourcing, one common problem is that the quality is often not desirable and needs to be ‘fixed’ by the in-house artists.
I’ve no doubt in my mind that any country is capable of putting out great artists, but as you say this takes time and their industry need to gain experience. So we agree there.

I'm sure you are right that they are looking for more than cheap labour… but of course cheap comes into it. That’s a huge part of it. It might not be the only objective, but its still a huge motive at this stage.

Like I said though, I’ve not got a problem with it. And maybe in the future, when Indian and Chinese artists are on here complaining about cheap US and UK artists taking away their income, I’ll not have a problem with it then either. ;)

Atwooki
06-06-2006, 01:09 PM
From the article:
He added, however, that Dreamworks foray into India would not be in the form of outsourcing. "It will be definitely more than that.
Shame that paragraph terminated like that.. leaves you with breath half-bated - like to add something to that Jeffers?

All the same, good on the Indian CG community. India's a lovely place; one could always sell-up and move ;)

Today's animated movies demand superior technological achievement along with tremendous artistry and storytelling. I read that as: Project roots (Production, Distribution, design & conceptual work etc.) = US (control base)......... other = India - Jeffers.... Jeffers... anyone???

C.

MDuhatschek
06-06-2006, 01:49 PM
I think outsourcing is going to happen regardless of the type of industry you work in, the only problem with this is that when wages in India start rising for doing animation work, India will no longer be the "flavor of the month" and the big corporations will move to the next country that will do the work cheaper. If I were in India I would take advantage of the training and start developing my own original content, so I can stand on my own two feet when the rug gets pulled out from under them.
This situation is very similar to the ousting of 2D animation, it was no longer the "flavor of the month", and soon it was overtaken by 3D. The course I chose was to start learning 3D, because I knew the rug was going to get pulled out from under me.
I think this could be a good situation if played right, it would be like a "global union", everyone would be of a highly skilled level of competency and talent, and would all make relatively the same wage. Where would the big corporations go then?....Those damn Martians, taking our jobs!

stevopolis
06-06-2006, 04:51 PM
The strong will survive. As long as the quality of animation stays in tack, out sourcing is okay.
In the States, out sourcing will force many old timers to advance themselves to keep up with
the global demand. You dictate if your replacable, so you can't blame an executive when it happens.
Just my personal opinion...

vfxdude2
06-06-2006, 06:23 PM
- China's main strength is infrastructural development which help them to set up businesses within no time. Their manufacturing industry needs no mention. Whether its Nike or Sony its got to be made in China. They also have a well developed IT sector, their only negative factor is that most Chinese people speak Chinese or Mandarin. And guess what they are learning English. Thats what I would call a true super power and they don't even boast about it !

At this point, China isn't as likely an outsourcing candidate for CG work as India, Taiwan, Singapore, or Eastern Europe. The language barrier would be a HUGE problem for CG. Also, I don't think the education levels are sufficient for the work as they are in the other countries I mention.

Also -- and this is just a weird little side note -- I read an article recently saying that the Chinese government censors films containing a mix of live-action and animation! Apparently, the government believes it will confuse people.

So, I'd posit that the Chinese aren't quite ready to work on Hollywood films; there's a big cultural gap there. A country with official state censorship might not want it's citizens working on American crap films (which, sadly, constitute the vast majority of VFX films...)

Incidentally, an FYI: the term "Chinese" = "Mandarin;" they don't use the term "Mandarin" in China -- that's a Western phrase (I took a Chinese class and was scolded by my teacher for making this mistake ;-). The other language commonly spoken in China is Cantonese (in Hong Kong, for instance). So, you'd more accurately say that the people of China speak Chinese and/or Cantonese.

-vfxdude

down2earth
06-06-2006, 07:47 PM
At this point, China isn't as likely an outsourcing candidate for CG work as India, Taiwan, Singapore, or Eastern Europe. The language barrier would be a HUGE problem for CG. Also, I don't think the education levels are sufficient for the work as they are in the other countries I mention.

Also -- and this is just a weird little side note -- I read an article recently saying that the Chinese government censors films containing a mix of live-action and animation! Apparently, the government believes it will confuse people.

So, I'd posit that the Chinese aren't quite ready to work on Hollywood films; there's a big cultural gap there. A country with official state censorship might not want it's citizens working on American crap films (which, sadly, constitute the vast majority of VFX films...)

Incidentally, an FYI: the term "Chinese" = "Mandarin;" they don't use the term "Mandarin" in China -- that's a Western phrase (I took a Chinese class and was scolded by my teacher for making this mistake ;-). The other language commonly spoken in China is Cantonese (in Hong Kong, for instance). So, you'd more accurately say that the people of China speak Chinese and/or Cantonese.

-vfxdude

Dude... I would suggest you get out of the USA and go to Asia and have a look for yourself. If you think Chinese people are less educated then you're so daaamn wrong !! If I were you I would be more careful in making such blunt statements !!

If you open up your PC or Mac or whatever you're using, you would see that 99.9% parts are made in China. Don't you think technology and education are directly proportional to each other ? I am so shocked by your ignorance !!! Sorry to say but you have start thinking from a different perspective my friend ! The world is changing fast and you need to catch up if don't fancy staying behind !

By the way, in China they neither call it Chinese, nor Mandarin or Cantonese. They call it by the name of the dialect.. For example, Mandarin or Beifanghua is spoken over northern China and there are dialects like Ji Lu, Jiao Liao, Zhongyuan, etc. I hope your Chinese teacher is not seeing this coz anyway she won't be very pleased to know what you think of their education level.

vfxdude2
06-06-2006, 08:13 PM
Dude... I would suggest you get out of the USA and go to Asia and have a look for yourself. If you think Chinese people are less educated then you're so daaamn wrong !! If I were you I would be more careful in making such blunt statements !!


I've been there.


If you open up your PC or Mac or whatever you're using, you would see that 99.9% parts are made in China. Don't you think technology and education are directly proportional to each other ? I am so shocked by your ignorance !!! Sorry to say but you have start thinking from a different perspective my friend ! The world is changing fast and you need to catch up if don't fancy staying behind !


Manufacturing is different than design; working on an assembly line doesn't require the education level that design does. Companies all over the world out-source manufacturing to China -- especially in Asia. When I went to Taiwan, everything you could buy was manufactured in China or Korea. If you found something which was actually manufactured in Japan -- where the cost of living is very high -- that was considered the really good stuff. And it was really expensive.

As far as semiconductor manufacturing goes, that happens mostly in Taiwan. But, the design is all from the US. I don't know why they don't design electronic products in Taiwan, but they don't seem to. Not many, anyway. I guess they make too much money off the manufacturing to bother competing with the US firms which design the chips. Or something...

But as far as China... anecdotally, I've never purchased a product designed in China. And other than Hong Kong cinema, I've never seen a film made in China. Seems like after Hong Kong became part of China, all the good directors went to Hollywood.

So, I may be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like "intellectual" products come from China.

Another anecdotal point: I know a lot of Chinese architects here in San Francisco. They all work on projects in China, but were educated outside of China. So, why would Chinese developers hire American architects if there were local architects available? It would certainly be cheaper to hire a local architect owing to travel expenses, communication, etc.


Do they have world-class Universities in China? I've never heard of any. I've heard of plenty in India and understand why it makes sense that India is a good place to hire designers. I know tons of Indian engineers, some of whom were educated in the US, and many of whom went to places like ITT in India.


So, what kind of educational systems do they have in China? I'd be interested to know.

-vfxdude

JMcWilliams
06-06-2006, 08:32 PM
If you open up your PC or Mac or whatever you're using, you would see that 99.9% parts are made in China. Don't you think technology and education are directly proportional to each other ? I am so shocked by your ignorance !!! Sorry to say but you have start thinking from a different perspective my friend ! The world is changing fast and you need to catch up if don't fancy staying behind !

I was going to respond, but vfxdude has already said it. Manufacturing someone elses tech is not the same as designing the tech. :D

down2earth
06-06-2006, 10:15 PM
I've been there.



Manufacturing is different than design; working on an assembly line doesn't require the education level that design does. Companies all over the world out-source manufacturing to China -- especially in Asia. When I went to Taiwan, everything you could buy was manufactured in China or Korea. If you found something which was actually manufactured in Japan -- where the cost of living is very high -- that was considered the really good stuff. And it was really expensive.

As far as semiconductor manufacturing goes, that happens mostly in Taiwan. But, the design is all from the US. I don't know why they don't design electronic products in Taiwan, but they don't seem to. Not many, anyway. I guess they make too much money off the manufacturing to bother competing with the US firms which design the chips. Or something...

But as far as China... anecdotally, I've never purchased a product designed in China. And other than Hong Kong cinema, I've never seen a film made in China. Seems like after Hong Kong became part of China, all the good directors went to Hollywood.

So, I may be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like "intellectual" products come from China.

Another anecdotal point: I know a lot of Chinese architects here in San Francisco. They all work on projects in China, but were educated outside of China. So, why would Chinese developers hire American architects if there were local architects available? It would certainly be cheaper to hire a local architect owing to travel expenses, communication, etc.


Do they have world-class Universities in China? I've never heard of any. I've heard of plenty in India and understand why it makes sense that India is a good place to hire designers. I know tons of Indian engineers, some of whom were educated in the US, and many of whom went to places like ITT in India.


So, what kind of educational systems do they have in China? I'd be interested to know.

-vfxdude


Wish I had more time to participate in this debate.. i'll leave it to my Chinese friends to answer your questions about the universities.. As far as I know it is one of the oldest civilizations in the world. They have a rich cultural heritage and one of the oldest written language system in the world.

We all are in this race together my friend but we should never underestimate our opponent coz that makes us more vulnerable. I understand your point very well and China being a competitor to India as well, I would love to find their weaknesses but I would rather learn from their strengths.

Bye for now !

elysianalartist
06-07-2006, 12:12 AM
how much outsourcing actually happens? I am under the impression many people come here to learn animation if they are any good. I am a student at Ringling for CA and a very good percent of the students are from over seas. I am not sure how scary this should be. Something to think about.


Morgan

jAcK_sAmuRaI_jAcK
06-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Threads like this exposes an ugly reality (I prefer not to name it) of our world.

UK, Australia, EU, Canada = Never a cry for US work being outsourced there, infact I remmember so many threads of "brotherly" consolation when any studio closes there

India, Phillipines, rest of the world = Always such big issue with such passionatly hateful comments

Do you think maybe here in lies the hint of a huge problem our world is facing today?

Fact for scary nationalists: "for every dollar spent on outsourcing to India, the United States reaps between $1.12 and $1.14 in benefits" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourcing

--
P.S- BTW how did the rich countries get rich in the first place?

tx_rx
06-07-2006, 09:22 AM
We're all on the same planet folks. Isolationism helps nobody.

This is very true.

kerosene
06-07-2006, 11:35 AM
I've been there.



Manufacturing is different than design; working on an assembly line doesn't require the education level that design does.

---snip---

I don't know why they don't design electronic products in Taiwan, but they don't seem to. Not many, anyway. I guess they make too much money off the manufacturing to bother competing with the US firms which design the chips. Or something...


-vfxdude



Don't be so sure about the designed in china part. I have background in industrial design and have many friends who work in that field. Since 60s Italy was the big boy in plastics and plastic molds manufacturing. In 90s Hon Kong and Taiwan started to seriously compete in both tool (manufacturing tools) and actual product part manufacturing. By now most of lower end design work has slid there - ie. mobile phone chargers, small accessories etc. that are not so important in terms of product identity. - As they do the tools, they can do the mechanical engineering and now designing too. In my opinion one has to be naiive to think it ends here.
Things like mobile phones are built around components that no-name (for consumers) manufacturers develope, produce and provide for the big companies. We are reaching the point where these pieces of the high tech are increasingly designed in the east.
Surely the brand building part is still here but... Higher and higher level of jobs are going to the cheaper countries. I think IT had (intellectual work) had a deficit of something like 5 billion dollars last year (can't provide a link now).

People to think that the quality won't be par is silly too - well quality will not match now but it will. Think about Toyotas and Hondas and how they were considered crap in 60s and 70s. Well ain't the case anymore. Korea designs its own high brand electronics in big scale. The others will follow. Surely there will be balancing out but not as much as we westerners would hope. Ask american plastics machanical engineers about their job prospects.

Also I think comments on "paying fairly considering the local expense level talk is nonsense". Companies in the west coast of US don't pay more then middle america because its "fair". The pay it because for emplyees there are other companies to choose from and those companies are here for the same reason - big talent pool and all kinds of industry services nearby. Companies pay exactly as low as they can to get good people in.

The point that somebody somewhere can do our job cheaper (fair there or not) means that we have to be able to compete with it. Quality, communication, physical proximity etc. make a difference but why would CG be the only field where these obstacles couldn't be solved over time.

I think this a very important issue and deserves a good dicussion here.


as we speak about thses issues I would like someone to explain me following thing:

If US trade deficit is 600-700 billion/year, where does the extra money come from to feed the (so called) economic growth? What grew? Again where did that money come to the country that buys more than it sells...

oh well, its not like its going to fall in year or two.

lewdzwiedz
06-07-2006, 02:02 PM
We're all ****ed (I certainly am). Chines government has a great deal of control over wages. Not facing a gun barrel, western laborers will never agree to work for equivalent pay. The areas in which the west leads: technology, inventions, intellectual property are being moved east. That includes animation jobs. Outsourcing seems reckless. Eventually the west will loose dominance or something will be done to strangulate emerging players (China, India).

Gentle Fury
06-07-2006, 03:20 PM
Threads like this exposes an ugly reality (I prefer not to name it) of our world.

UK, Australia, EU, Canada = Never a cry for US work being outsourced there, infact I remmember so many threads of "brotherly" consolation when any studio closes there

India, Phillipines, rest of the world = Always such big issue with such passionatly hateful comments

Do you think maybe here in lies the hint of a huge problem our world is facing today?

Fact for scary nationalists: "for every dollar spent on outsourcing to India, the United States reaps between $1.12 and $1.14 in benefits" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourcing

--
P.S- BTW how did the rich countries get rich in the first place?


Firstly.....around here there were actually 2 animation companies that laid off everyone because they decided to outsource to Canada.......there were some upset people!! This isnt a race thing....its a money thing. Outsourcing kills economy...Period. In a country where finding a job is hard enough because of the competition here (and workers willing to work for nothing just to have a job) we have companies trying to improve the bottom line by outsourcing to other countries that ask for less pay and produce more work.

What is the result.....more people out of work, and more inferior products produced by the lowest bidder.

Ever bought a dell computer? Great product......till it breaks. Well they outsource all of their customer support to INDIA!! Now, this isnt even the case of a faceless worker...as that of an animator....at least animation is wordless (except bad phonimes)...you are actually talking to someone that is doing nothing more than reading a cue card computer based on what little they understood of what you said!

I have nothing against foreign language speaking individuals......but when they are hired to help someone that doesnt speak their language it will be frustrating for both worker and client.

This is only a couple of examples of outsourcing that helps damage society.....Animation company saved a couple bucks an hour, many people here that are very talented get canned, dell saves a couple bucks an hour and dell customers decided their procuct is crap and get really irritated (adding to our already horrid public moral).

BTW, if it is true that the benefit of outsourcing is 12 to 14 cents on the dollar....it is even sadder and more pathetic a tactic!!

Flog
06-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Professor Drezner reports that for every dollar spent on outsourcing to India, the United States reaps between $1.12 and $1.14 in benefits. Drezner also points out that large software companies such as Microsoft and Oracle have increased outsourcing and used the savings for investment and larger domestic payrolls.


BTW, if it is true that the benefit of outsourcing is 12 to 14 cents on the dollar....it is even sadder and more pathetic a tactic!!

When you are thinking of large corporation 12 -14 cents can equate to millions. For example many large corporations cost of operation is billions. For every Billion in operation cost you save between 120,000,000-140,000,000.

Not as pathetic as it sounds. Most of your grocery markets make their money off penny's on the dollar.

Honestly I think there is a healthy balance that can be achieved. Especially in the CG market. There is a ton of competition out there and for the most part I think many of the big jobs are done in house and the grunt work does go overseas.

However I think outsourcing can be a benefit to the smaller houses. For example I'm an Indie film maker (working on my first full length film). Honestly I cannot afford many artists in the more developed countries, other than friends doing it for a reduced price plus future commission, but for those who can't help I have to hire and going to India and other places has helped immensely.

This should give many of you the opportunity instead of working for the man, BE THE MAN!!

I see to much talent on these boards working to make the MAN rich when they could be producing their own animations with their skills. We have so many new venues available to the INDIE and yet they are not be taken advantage of.

Basically if someone takes your job from another country, MAKE YOUR OWN JOB!!

CG artists need to start being more like Muscicians and Actors who by day work for the man but by night practice and play gigs.

Don't be concerned about outsourcing be more concerned with not marketting yourself and your skills.

If you can market yourself you can sell yourself real well and you'll never go hungry. Why not turn that into a job, you be the art director and find the sales and outsource the job or find employees in other lands to work for you freelance.

Get a job doing a pre viz and find folks in other countries to do it as you manage the project. Give them fair pay and take your cut. Their are a ton of local businesses who would like to spoof up their work or advertise.

Doing local commercials, banners, advertisments, visualizations, videos, etc. Then just oversea a group you find and trust.

Pay them a FAIR and GOOD wage and take your cut. Even if the cut is 12% you can have 10-20 jobs in the making.

Outsourcing can be good. Just be fair and market YOURSELF.

jdsb
06-07-2006, 04:40 PM
I have an extract from an online blog that you migt be interested in reading:
they have a few statistics based on your fears and assumptions:
for full article go here (http://indianeconomy.org/2005/07/16/much-ado-about-nothing/) (http://indianeconomy.org/2005/07/16/much-ado-about-nothing/)
According to a confidential memorandum, I.B.M. is cutting 13,000 jobs in the United States and in Europe and creating 14,000 jobs in India.

First of all, are the job cuts in the US & Europe related to the job creation in India?
Secondly, the number of jobs lost because of mergers, poor management decisions and other missteps by management are many multiples of those moved offshore — as BlameIndiaWatch has often pointed out. Check this post on GM. (http://blameindiawatch.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_blameindiawatch_archive.html#111827771136812155)

From 2000 to 2015, an estimated three million American jobs will have been outsourced; one in 10 technology jobs will leave these shores by the end of this year

This ominous statistic is a guaranteed fixture in any of the outsourcing alarmist creeds. However, that number has no significance without context. Such as

a) The size of the US economy — total employment of 140 million, wherein 3 million over 15 years works out to only about 200,000 jobs per year or less than 2%.

b) The number of job losses in a dynamic economy like the US, even at full employment is (http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/briefs/tbp-019.pdf) 18.7 million per year. That sounds far more ominous than the 3.million over 15 yrs. However, more than 18.7 million Americans find jobs, which is why the unemployment rate continues to fall.



Firstly.....around here there were actually 2 animation companies that laid off everyone because they decided to outsource to Canada.......there were some upset people!! This isnt a race thing....its a money thing. Outsourcing kills economy...Period. In a country where finding a job is hard enough because of the competition here (and workers willing to work for nothing just to have a job) we have companies trying to improve the bottom line by outsourcing to other countries that ask for less pay and produce more work.

What is the result.....more people out of work, and more inferior products produced by the lowest bidder.

Ever bought a dell computer? Great product......till it breaks. Well they outsource all of their customer support to INDIA!! Now, this isnt even the case of a faceless worker...as that of an animator....at least animation is wordless (except bad phonimes)...you are actually talking to someone that is doing nothing more than reading a cue card computer based on what little they understood of what you said!

I have nothing against foreign language speaking individuals......but when they are hired to help someone that doesnt speak their language it will be frustrating for both worker and client.

This is only a couple of examples of outsourcing that helps damage society.....Animation company saved a couple bucks an hour, many people here that are very talented get canned, dell saves a couple bucks an hour and dell customers decided their procuct is crap and get really irritated (adding to our already horrid public moral).

BTW, if it is true that the benefit of outsourcing is 12 to 14 cents on the dollar....it is even sadder and more pathetic a tactic!!

vfxdude2
06-07-2006, 06:06 PM
how much outsourcing actually happens? I am under the impression many people come here to learn animation if they are any good. I am a student at Ringling for CA and a very good percent of the students are from over seas. I am not sure how scary this should be. Something to think about.


Well, I've heard that all 2D animation is done in Korea. (As others have posted on this thread). One of the companies I worked for had outsourced an entire project to a company in Taiwan. Another company I worked for was trying to outsource roto work to companies in Asia.

And Lucasfilm Animation is based in Singapore, but I guess that's not really outsourcing, per se -- that's just where the company is.


...as to what I was saying before about education... I've know tons of Chinese people who are very well educated. The pattern, though, seems to be that foreign students come to the US to get a degree, and then work here (or somewhere else where they can make money). The point being -- they don't go home because it's much more lucrative to work in another country.

So, I'm still curious as to whether China has the educational infrastructure to support "intellectual" or design-type work (as opposed to manufacturing).

-vfxdude

vfxdude2
06-07-2006, 06:22 PM
Don't be so sure about the designed in china part. I have background in industrial design and have many friends who work in that field. Since 60s Italy was the big boy in plastics and plastic molds manufacturing. In 90s Hon Kong and Taiwan started to seriously compete in both tool (manufacturing tools) and actual product part manufacturing. By now most of lower end design work has slid there - ie. mobile phone chargers, small accessories etc. that are not so important in terms of product identity. - As they do the tools, they can do the mechanical engineering and now designing too. In my opinion one has to be naiive to think it ends here.
Things like mobile phones are built around components that no-name (for consumers) manufacturers develope, produce and provide for the big companies. We are reaching the point where these pieces of the high tech are increasingly designed in the east.
Surely the brand building part is still here but... Higher and higher level of jobs are going to the cheaper countries. I think IT had (intellectual work) had a deficit of something like 5 billion dollars last year (can't provide a link now).

I wasn't really referring to Hong Kong or Taiwan; more the rest of China. I know that things are designed in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Though -- as I mentioned before -- Taiwan still doesn't really does semiconductor products -- they mostly just manufacture them. I don't know why that is. I'm sure they have the know-how; it must be a business decision.

Oh, and I obviously wasn't referring to Japan. Japan is just like the US. They do their own outsourcing to other Asian countries. And to the US, as well, especially for automobiles.


Also I think comments on "paying fairly considering the local expense level talk is nonsense". Companies in the west coast of US don't pay more then middle america because its "fair". The pay it because for emplyees there are other companies to choose from and those companies are here for the same reason - big talent pool and all kinds of industry services nearby. Companies pay exactly as low as they can to get good people in.


I have to disagree with you on that one... the cost of living on the West Coast is so much higher -- especially for housing -- than it is in middle america that employees wouldn't be able to live here if the wages weren't higher. I worked for a company which actually had an official pay differential based on where you were located. The West Coat, of course, had the highest pay. Denver had the lowest. For the same jobs. For the same company.

-vfxdude

vfxdude2
06-07-2006, 07:45 PM
Ok, NEW QUESTION: I think we've been framing this discussion in the context of a static market for film/video content. But is this the correct way to look at it?

There are lots of indications that the content market is expanding rapidly. Fifteen years ago, the only outlets for content were cinemas and TV. Now, you can watch shows on your iPod, or download them from the Internet. For your TV: You can get like 600 channels from cable or satellite. And, home theater systems are improving by leaps and bounds.

Conclusion: More content is needed to fill up all that space!

So, that casts the whole outsourcing debate in a different light: If there's a need for more content, there's a need for more people to produce the content.

Also, in some cases VFX/CG work is actually a cost-saving measure for studios. There are two reasons for this:

1) The relentless improvement of CG technology means that it'll be possible to create content with much less overhead. Films like "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" were proof-of-concept that you don't even need to build a set to produce a movie! That has to be a huge cost savings. And with the tools getting better and better, it'll mean that building virtual sets and characters will become cheaper and easier. So, while there are certainly movies which cost more to make due to the inclusion of fancy effects, there are also movies which are actually cheaper because they are made on a computer. Remember, on-set time is *very* expensive: Paying all the grips, cameramen, lighting people, set dressers, etc. adds up pretty quickly!

2) Related to (1), there are many things we now do in VFX which reduce the time a production needs to spend on-set. Things like wire removal, paint fixes, etc. Working in VFX, you repeatedly run into shots where the director screws something up and declares, "Fix it in post!" There are tons of things like this. For example, a friend of mine who worked on Poseidon spent a couple weeks actually hand-painting -- frame by frame -- a fix for some spit which was dangling out of an actresses' mouth. (Gross!) Now, which costs more: my friend doing the painting, or shooting the take again? Probably the latter. Another example: I worked on a shot for Fantastic Four where Doom and Thing were having this underwater fight. We did the whole thing in VFX. The plate had them fighting in front of blue-screen -- we added the rest. Again, which costs more? To do that scene practically, they would've had to hire underwater stunt men, created the whole set, and use underwater lighting and cameras. That probably would've been much more expensive than just "doing it in post."


So, I posit that the labor market for CG workers is actually expanding due to 1) And increased demand for content; and 2) The cost savings derived from post-production techniques vs. on-set techniques.


What does this mean for outsourcing? Well, if the labor market is expanding, then outsourcing doesn't necessarily mean that jobs will shift from one place to another. It just means that more people around the world will have these types of jobs.

Food for thought?

-vfxdude

Mindful One
06-07-2006, 08:29 PM
There are lots of indications that the content market is expanding rapidly. Fifteen years ago, the only outlets for content were cinemas and TV. Now, you can watch shows on your iPod, or download them from the Internet. For your TV: You can get like 600 channels from cable or satellite. And, home theater systems are improving by leaps and bounds.





Ok, I have to chime in at this point. VFXdude2 you are hitting the nail on the head and hitting it hard. Content is everywhere, and with the changing face of how people enjoy that content is what is making this market explode.

This is good for everyone that has a stake in it, which is virtually the whole planet. People who are more directly connected to it, whether they are already working in the industry or avid cgtalkers, will benefit sooner than others. The important thing to realize is that more and more shots are being "fixed" as vfxdude2 has said:
Things like wire removal, paint fixes, etc. Working in VFX, you repeatedly run into shots where the director screws something up and declares, "Fix it in post!" There are tons of things like this.

The reasons why are many but all film makers will be needing vfx shots in the future. What about the indie scene? Look at all of the new grads out there from all of these schools, they are obviously doing something.

I was at a demo reel class at siggraph 04, and the gentleman from kleiser walczak was asking people who they think their competition is, and he showed them a slide with the picture of the world.

We all need to look at it as there is work being done out there and many folks are doing it.

I have also had experience with the chinese. I visited China several times. They are doing vfx and animation for broadcast and it is very sophisticated. I buy phoenix tv which is chinese programming and there is a ton of animation on there. I do not think they will take over the vfx world but they are doing it and very well. There could easily be outsourcing in china in the future. There are roadblocks with outsourcing which are culture and language related, but the chinese teach their children english in school. I know many chinese people who can speak english enough to carry on a conversation.

The price of software and hardware is cheaper and information is online, all over the world. That reason alone is why more people are doing it. I remember when is was 17G's for alias and it ran on one slow machine that was another 17 G's. Let's face it, CG and vfx is more fun now than it was then. The network is huge and more people are doing super sweet work.

Let's all just work and work hard. Make some good stuff and see each other at siggraph.

Just trying to shed some good chi on the board.

Peace,
Steve
:)

kerosene
06-07-2006, 08:51 PM
I have to disagree with you on that one... the cost of living on the West Coast is so much higher -- especially for housing -- than it is in middle america that employees wouldn't be able to live here if the wages weren't higher. I worked for a company which actually had an official pay differential based on where you were located. The West Coat, of course, had the highest pay. Denver had the lowest. For the same jobs. For the same company.

-vfxdude

Of course - but it is not about fairnes. The people move away - other companies, other jobs or other areas if they do not get paid enough. Thats exactly what I am saying - in the coas tthe competition is hard on both ends.
However there are places in this world where the people do not have the same opportunities and options.
Do you think the company who has office in west coast and in denver would keep that office if they didn't get some bang for the buck. Maybe it is for them easier to get the top players by having an office in the somewhat awesome California. Maybe they need representation in the industry in an area where the other companies play.
The offices is expensive areas are there for a reason (the areas are expensive for the very same reason). Yet there are lots of jobs that can and will be exported.

krisr
06-07-2006, 08:57 PM
I hate Katzenberg.....he's an idiot and I would never work under his name....no offense to those on this thread that do work for him. He represents everything that is evil about business. He said in Wired magazine a few months ago that he's all about more volume of work vs. quality....he's a total ass. I have nothing against animators flurishing around the world....I think its great but he's purely doing this to fulfill his own greed....he couldn't give a crap if it was India, China, Mars or the moon the work was going to.....if he can make an extra buck, he'll do it. And he doesn't give a hoot about animation either. He would do the same thing if he was making toilet seats.

Dr Dardis
06-08-2006, 06:00 PM
Food for thought?

-vfxdude

Right on Man! Well put. May I add another benefit/reason for outsourcing?

I remember it being mentioned that certain directors loved sending part of the work to AUS/NZ/ASIA due to the fact that it effectively bought them a 24hr production cycle...

ie. Work is finishing at, say, ILM just as work is STARTING at Weta. So when the director/s are checking dailies, they are recieving twice the produce every day and in theory cutting actual post-production time in half.

More food for thought?

Chris

Atwooki
06-08-2006, 07:49 PM
I really, really would be keen for Mr. Katzenburg personally to speak up on this thread for himself -
No hanging around for 'a representative from DW said today' or such-like, just a few honest words from himself (and we all know you're huddled around this thread)... or is he too 'high and mighty' to lower himself to explain all this to the 'workers'?

The quicker this happens, the less guilt is apparent ;)

C.

vfxdude2
06-08-2006, 08:51 PM
Right on Man! Well put. May I add another benefit/reason for outsourcing?

Yeah, or at least a reason not to fear it! (Which, I must admit, I do a little... though I see it as inevitable)


I remember it being mentioned that certain directors loved sending part of the work to AUS/NZ/ASIA due to the fact that it effectively bought them a 24hr production cycle...

ie. Work is finishing at, say, ILM just as work is STARTING at Weta. So when the director/s are checking dailies, they are recieving twice the produce every day and in theory cutting actual post-production time in half.

More food for thought?


Definitely!

-vfxdude

vfxdude2
06-08-2006, 08:58 PM
I really, really would be keen for Mr. Katzenburg personally to speak up on this thread for himself -
No hanging around for 'a representative from DW said today' or such-like, just a few honest words from himself (and we all know you're huddled around this thread)... or is he too 'high and mighty' to lower himself to explain all this to the 'workers'?

The quicker this happens, the less guilt is apparent ;)

C.

I doubt he reads this board, unfortunately ;-)

But... ok... I'll admit this: I did actually work for Dreamworks for a little while, and the work he is probably talking about is "extra" stuff. In other words, not the main features.

Since they're a public company, they have to impress their investors. Unfortunately, they only make revenue when they release a film. In line with what I was saying before about the market for content expanding.... well, they're trying to make *more* content, more than likely. It's entirely possible that they're not cutting US jobs in favor of outsourced jobs; rather, they might just be adding more projects which they can't afford to do in the US so they have more content to sell.

That'd be my guess...

-vfxdude

PerryDS
06-08-2006, 09:44 PM
The big issue with India is the huge jumps between those that have and those that don't. I can't speak right off hand what the percentages are, but some 5%-10% of the population have all the money and the rest live in or near poverty levels.

This will drive the revenue generating ability of the average North American down so that we will not be able to afford to see the shows ...so over the next 30 to 50 years I can see Democracy collapsing into a big cesspool of greed.

Well, maybe not that extreme, but world wide incomes will level out with undeveloped Countries experiencing rising incomes and well, we will have to live with lower incomes. Off course except for those at the top, they'll own everthing.

Atwooki
06-08-2006, 09:51 PM
I doubt he reads this board, unfortunately ;-)
Perhaps not; but I know of people at DW who do :)

PerryDS
06-08-2006, 09:59 PM
Also -- and this is just a weird little side note -- I read an article recently saying that the Chinese government censors films containing a mix of live-action and animation! Apparently, the government believes it will confuse people.

-vfxdude

I gather the real reason they did this was because there are production companies in China that we're pounding out cheap children's programming by slicing in animation with live action. Animation is time consuming whereas actors in China are cheap. Has something to do with how China doles out funds for productions ... based set amount for half an hour rather than on actual effort. Goverment was trying to maintain some standards on the quality of television broadcasts.

vfxdude2
06-09-2006, 04:39 AM
The big issue with India is the huge jumps between those that have and those that don't. I can't speak right off hand what the percentages are, but some 5%-10% of the population have all the money and the rest live in or near poverty levels.

This will drive the revenue generating ability of the average North American down so that we will not be able to afford to see the shows ...so over the next 30 to 50 years I can see Democracy collapsing into a big cesspool of greed.

Well, maybe not that extreme, but world wide incomes will level out with undeveloped Countries experiencing rising incomes and well, we will have to live with lower incomes. Off course except for those at the top, they'll own everthing.


Ack! Let's hope not... that's definitely the "glass half empty" view ;-)

The "glass half full" view would be that wealth is re-distributed globally and markets expand.

A thought exercise: Europe, the US, Canada, and Japan all have pretty high standards of living (and probably some other countries I'm not remembering at the moment). Do they have those standards of living at the *expense* of countries which do not? Since a lot of these wealthy countries have huge trade deficits, it's kind of hard to argue that their wealth is being taken out of the pockets of poorer nations.

So, maybe everybody will be brought up to the same level instead of going down to a lower level ???

(I'm not an economist so I can't really argue either way, but I think it's a valid scenario to consider)

Regardless, globalization is inevitable. So, let's hope it ends up being a good thing...

-vfxdude

CupOWonton
06-09-2006, 01:52 PM
Every thing I have seen that involved outsourcing to India, went bad, and theyre retracting it back to the US.

#1 - Telemarketing - People now want nothing to do with someone if they have a thick indian accent, because India telemarketers have also been involved in MASSIVE credit card and checking scams and theres a good chance they themselves didnt even know. All these people do is read what they can off of a list.

#2 - IT - All those massive companies that outsourced IT to India, are now pulling it all back to the states for obvious reasons.

albedo4800hp
06-09-2006, 02:20 PM
Ack! Let's hope not... that's definitely the "glass half empty" view ;-)

The "glass half full" view would be that wealth is re-distributed globally and markets expand.

A thought exercise: Europe, the US, Canada, and Japan all have pretty high standards of living (and probably some other countries I'm not remembering at the moment). Do they have those standards of living at the *expense* of countries which do not? Since a lot of


Yep you got it man at least that is true for most people where the white men rule(s)d. A look into your history book (if it is a good one) can easily give you the answer on that. Through colonization basically the white causcian race managed to build up dependency chains over the other countries they colonized which last till too date. Fair trade give me a break that does not exist and the big companies who rule mostly the goverments through their own interest andf lobbies will make sure that this will never be established because it eats up their own wellfare. Even the world bank is the biggest farce you could think of. The white boyz took first the country, the people, stole their natural resources everything they could crap manifested their way of thinking and led the people into poverty, modern slavery and installing people in charge who basically will follow the western world for their own selfish greed. Until now only a few asian countries which luckily never suffered too bad under colonization or were never colonized in the first place found a way out of this and of course the middle east since they sit on some of the most crucial resources the black gold!

albedo4800hp
06-09-2006, 02:20 PM
Ack! Let's hope not... that's definitely the "glass half empty" view ;-)

The "glass half full" view would be that wealth is re-distributed globally and markets expand.

A thought exercise: Europe, the US, Canada, and Japan all have pretty high standards of living (and probably some other countries I'm not remembering at the moment). Do they have those standards of living at the *expense* of countries which do not? Since a lot of


Yep you got it man at least that is true for most people where the white men rule(s)d. A look into your history book (if it is a good one) can easily give you the answer on that. Through colonization basically the white causcian race managed to build up dependency chains over the other countries they colonized which last till too date. Fair trade give me a break that does not exist and the big companies who rule mostly the goverments through their own interest andf lobbies will make sure that this will never be established because it eats up their own wellfare. Even the world bank is the biggest farce you could think of. The white boyz took first the country, the people, stole their natural resources everything they could crap manifested their way of thinking and led the people into poverty, modern slavery and installing people in charge who basically will follow the western world for their own selfish greed. Until now only a few asian countries which luckily never suffered too bad under colonization or were never colonized in the first place found a way out of this and of course the middle east since they sit on some of the most crucial resources the black gold!

CupOWonton
06-09-2006, 02:38 PM
Yep you got it man at least that is true for most people where the white men rule(s)d.

woah now, race discussion bad. Yeah, Im so sure the people we pay for oil that we helped them find on their land who later shaft us and say "... know what? I want more" are just so DEPENDANT on the big country's right now. Because of the technology the "big countrys" made, these people are making more money as 1 person than ENTIRE COUNTRYS make in that same year.

I sure wish I could afford a car made out of silver and encrusted with diamonds and jewls.

RobertoOrtiz
06-09-2006, 02:41 PM
People racist comments WILL NOT be tolerated.
I will close the thread if this rule is not followed.

-R

albedo4800hp
06-09-2006, 05:27 PM
woah now, race discussion bad. Yeah, Im so sure the people we pay for oil that we helped them find on their land who later shaft us and say "... know what? I want more" are just so DEPENDANT on the big country's right now. Because of the technology the "big countrys" made, these people are making more money as 1 person than ENTIRE COUNTRYS make in that same year.


Well first most oil fields except some in the Middle east but even there a big majority belong to billion $ companies or sub companies of those billion $ companies which suprisingly do not originate from the country the oil field is located. Strange isn't it! That's also mostly true for South America and Africa


I sure wish I could afford a car made out of silver and encrusted with diamonds and jewls.

Well the retirement of Exxon's CEO has sweetened up his pension by 100 mio $ yep I would like to have that too as well. So ask yourself a question who makes more money out of it? The big oil companies or the guys living in the country and working for them?

Next question who dictates the world prices for coffee beans, cacao beans, exotic fruits, grains, rice, etc. The countries where they are grown or the countries which manufacture them?

Hence, they even are so dependent that instead of using their fertile agriculture land for self preservation they instead use it for growing stuff like that to export it to us for a minimum price. And it gets even more ridiculous now the western world is even that smart to make them so dependent that they have to buy the fertilizer from us and the machines which of course are more expensive than the good they produce. And to put the icing on the top some US genetic companies had the great idea to sell them genetical enhanced crops which enlarge the number of grains you'll get out of them but are infertile. Yep so you have to buy the grains each year from new. Yep that is what I call fair!

Face it man, globalization is a dirty game who does not really see it doesn't because he's seeing it from his western point of view which is of course nice because you are mostly on the winning side.

Enough rant from me from here this is so sad and makes me so sick and I don't think this is the right forum to discuss these things

vfxdude2
06-09-2006, 06:25 PM
OK, you guys are right... my bad... Yes, the reason why the countries I mentioned (and I forgot Australia) are wealthy is because they were all part of the British, French, and or Spanish empires at one point.


BUT... I think we should take the moderator's advice on this one ;-) We're straying from the topic of CG jobs at this point, and should probably take it to another forum.

(personally, I love debating topics related to imperialism, but this really isn't the place for it :)

-vfxdude

underearth
06-09-2006, 09:14 PM
Add Katzenberg to the list of traitors that is willing to sell out his country all to save a buck or two.


some guys stands up sometime back mark out some border for you and said this is usa this is asia..and this is india etc..etc...and we stated following..

what is problem with you.. do you think you belong to some where think again....if you think so....you are nowhere...

us of a is land of oppurtunity cause of hard work of its people...and it would be so...

someother place on this earth can also become so.....if they deserve....

and " traitor " and who is.... THINK..

Edit: and please siting somewhere else and saying some thing.. which you once heard and what you once read.. and specailly what you saw..and what you get all those picture through any medium are never correct.. they are always manuplated.. everywhere ..
someguys saying it is pulling back and BPO's pulling.. yesterday in paper i saw apple pulling back.. and then i read in finacial time HCL gets renew contract from boieng...

list would go on and on...things are good and things are worst everwhere.. any place on earth is no exception....

PhillipCrond
06-09-2006, 09:20 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I didn't see anyone crying when NCSoft, a Korean company, decided to open up offices in the US. Trade goes both ways, and you either find ways to differentiate (as US auto makers had to do in the face of more reliable Japanese models in the 70s-80s), or get swallowed. If you're concerned about losing your job, then perhaps you picked the wrong field. This ain't insurance sales, this is a volatile, risky business. If someone can do it better for cheaper, then they win the game. Pick up the pieces and move on.

grrinc
06-09-2006, 10:50 PM
Well I think people have a right to vocalise their concerns if they can see there job security has taken a knock back. I know I would be pissed off, Globalisation or not. Globalistaion maybe something that we all have to get used too, but that doesn't mean we dont have a right to get narked about it; especially for people who have families to support.

You can bet your life that people in India who have had there jobs moved elsewere didn't start saying " oh well!! thats globalisation for you!! back to the shanty towns for us! "

I myself have seen my trade ( i dont work in Cg ) literally taken over by Polish immigrants. I dont blame them one bit, they saw a hole and they filled it. But I am still mad about it. I have a family to feed and may now have to consider re training. It was going to be Cg but not now!!!

down2earth
06-10-2006, 12:50 AM
Well I think people have a right to vocalise their concerns if they can see there job security has taken a knock back. I know I would be pissed off, Globalisation or not. Globalistaion maybe something that we all have to get used too, but that doesn't mean we dont have a right to get narked about it; especially for people who have families to support.

You can bet your life that people in India who have had there jobs moved elsewere didn't start saying " oh well!! thats globalisation for you!! back to the shanty towns for us! "

I myself have seen my trade ( i dont work in Cg ) literally taken over by Polish immigrants. I dont blame them one bit, they saw a hole and they filled it. But I am still mad about it. I have a family to feed and may now have to consider re training. It was going to be Cg but not now!!!

Do you know how many families in the developing nations lost their bread and butter bcoz of American multinationals like McDonalds, Pepsi, Coke.. or watever ! These countries allowed the MNC's to operate and they made shit loads of money coz there are so many million of consumers in Asia. Right now a country like India has the world's largest middle-class population with buying power equivalent to the GDP of a small European country and whatever u may call it.. the greed of the MNC's to tap such lucrative markets may not be justifiable but in a growing economy, people with dispensable income and plastic money want to spend and thats how the capitalist economy works.

down2earth
06-10-2006, 01:06 AM
Every thing I have seen that involved outsourcing to India, went bad, and theyre retracting it back to the US.

#1 - Telemarketing - People now want nothing to do with someone if they have a thick indian accent, because India telemarketers have also been involved in MASSIVE credit card and checking scams and theres a good chance they themselves didnt even know. All these people do is read what they can off of a list.

#2 - IT - All those massive companies that outsourced IT to India, are now pulling it all back to the states for obvious reasons.

Thats too much crap man ! Can you name a few companies which have gone back to the US ? Is this some kind of India bashing game goin on ? Im beginning to feel sick right now :(

Mr Katsenberg please drop all your plans to come to the horrible place called India. At least it will stop bringing out the ugly faces of people who still think that world is divided into TWO segments of people. Some people deserve everything more and some nothing. Some people are supposed to be superior and some people are always meant to be inferior. Some people are intellectually developed. Some are eternally dim wits.

Luckily I belong to the second type.

robcat2075
06-10-2006, 02:39 AM
just wanted to tell my friends here that life in a country with 1 billion people is not easy. itsssss daaaaaaaaamn tough man !!! our government does not provide social security, we don't get pampered with unemployment allowance and when we get old we probably won't have enough savings to take care of our funeral. can you imagine a life like that ??

Yup, I can imagine that because our social security system will be broke by the time I'm eligble for it and inflation will make my savings insignificant by that time also. As for the funeral, I'm thinking that being eaten by sharks would be a cost-effective solution. :thumbsup:

Of course, this is not the fault of anyone in India. It's the fault of our leaders who have bankrupted the country on fantasies of world domination. We only appear to be rich. It's all money borrowed from China and the middle east.:shrug:

rakmaya
06-10-2006, 03:34 AM
I myself have seen my trade ( i dont work in Cg ) literally taken over by Polish immigrants. I dont blame them one bit, they saw a hole and they filled it. But I am still mad about it. I have a family to feed and may now have to consider re training. It was going to be Cg but not now!!!

There are people who run, and then there are people who are so arrogant and powerful in their job that things like these doesn't effect them. You are gona see a fence whereever you go if you start running from one thing to another b/c of something simple as these.

What would have happened if we didn't have nationality differences in this world ? What is the difference between 1000 Modelers from US and 1000 from India ? There is something people should learn from sports like Soccer and Tennis.

When I look at the work posted here at CGTalk, there is clearly a difference between the elite and others and I don't see them worrying about this problem as much as others.

CupOWonton
06-10-2006, 08:14 AM
If someone can do it better for cheaper, then they win the game. Pick up the pieces and move on.
"Better' doesnt seem to be the case in most common examples I can think of.
Its cheaper, thats why, it doesnt have to be better, just cheaper and faster.

Magidion
06-10-2006, 08:50 AM
I once read on a t-shirt "Evolve or Die" And in this case I am inclined to agree with this idea. I'm seeing that it is more and more difficult for the average US citizen to expect to have one job in one place for the rest of his/life. I'm not saying that it is not a personal goal of mine, (it is) but it does seem a harder and harder goal to acheive. Recently I was laid off from a project and I needed to find a job. (I have a wife a child to help support) and I was able to find a position outside of the US in Australia. The project paid enough and I was able to send the majority of the pay home. I see a lot of potential to work all over the world and i this industry I am not expecting to stay in one job, city, state or even country. I have decided for myself that I am willing to go where the work is. If the work is in Australia/NZ/UK/US/Singapore, where-ever..... if the arrangments are good then I am going to go and do it. This is my own philisophy and not a view point I feel all other must subscribe.
I do think that it would be best to have 'a' place of work and that this job didn't disappear to another country.... however, this is not neccesarily the case these days and so I travel. I can never, never say that THIS country SHOULD have the work and THIS, SHOULD NOT.
Times change, I feel, and so I must change with them or find something else to do. to demand things never change or go back to a 'golden age' in the past seems like trying to shout back the tide......wasted breath. Just as those in Asia are seeing more work and the US seeing some of those opportunities leaving, try to find the advantage for yourself. No-one is actually going to help you but you.
Not a lecture or demand, just my thoughts.


Peace

Magi

vicky_1
06-10-2006, 10:17 AM
scott adams saw a future where...

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2004885560531.gif

Its heartening that we can sit here in our parts of the worlds and voice our thoughts so freely without getting at each others throat!:)

Globalisation is evolution. Nothing new, I know. Even dinosaurs knew that!
Not limiting to cg alone, the big picture evens out most of the highpoints of this discussion.

The Savvy guy who outsourced said, 'money saved is money earned.'
The right-there-on-time guy who got the job said, 'let me make hay while sun shines!'
The MNC guy said, 'look new market, yippy!'
The Newton guy said, 'what goes up, comes down!'
The Savvy guy who saw the next country said, 'Looky, cheaper place!'
Even before the new guy realised, the MNC guy salivated , 'Mmm, ahh! One more new market!'

What goes around, comes around guys! Wait till we start crying foul.

albedo4800hp
06-10-2006, 08:42 PM
scott adams saw a future where...

Globalisation is evolution. Nothing new, I know. Even dinosaurs knew that!
Not limiting to cg alone, the big picture evens out most of the highpoints of this discussion.



Hmm I am starting to wonder if evolution did not make a mistake somewhere down the road dinosaurs are a good example suprisingly most of them were bipedal but they died out, is man next?

Or my favourite quote

"Stop putting a f*cking dolar sign on everything on this planet"

Pollo
06-11-2006, 01:52 AM
Someone on the other side of the globe of me has no idea how to create a movie, TV show, etc. that relates to my own nation. If I'm in the USA, I wouldn't ask a person living in Arabia to do a documentary on the history of the US, its culture, and environment. I'd ask someone living in the USA to do something that is meant for the US. I enjoy the artwork done by many, no matter where they are from, but I'd be lying if sometimes the thrust of their artwork totally misses what I think it means. It's been said thousands of times, but context is key. In this instance, where you live is the context of which I speak.

CupOWonton
06-11-2006, 03:27 AM
So exactly who's winning?
Sertainly isnt the people getting the incredibly cheap wage jobs.
Sertainly isnt the people who lost their already cheap wage jobs.
It all goes into the hands of the people who own the companies who outsource the work, and the people who own the companies who take that work. Those few people are the real winners, though moraly theyre the biggest losers of all time. Everyone else is getting shafted.

Stahlberg
06-11-2006, 03:54 AM
So exactly who's winning?
In the long run, everybody. 100 years from now or 200 or whatever, no nation will be much worse off than any other financially speaking. Standard of living will be roughly the same all over the world, with roughly the same spread between high and low within each region. The trends are clear:
http://tools.google.com/gapminder (http://tools.google.com/gapminder/#ssn=2$majorMode=chart$ds;path=data;type=swf$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$ts;max=2005;min=1960;sp=6;ti=2004$inc_c;gid=1004;by=grp$inc_s;iid=SP.POP.TOTL;by=ind$inc_x;iid=NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD;by=ind$inc_y;iid=SP.DYN.LE00.IN;by=ind$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=466;dataMax=64299;sma=485;smi=55$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=24;dataMax=82;sma=57;smi=387$map_s;scale=sqrt;dataMin=15000;dataMax=1296157000;sma=50;smi=5$inds=)
(Althouth it's going to take a long time for Africa to catch up)

Outsourcing helps this process along.
The question then becomes: are you for or against this trend? Do you want to keep it the way it is today (or yesterday)? Or are you for a more equal distribution of wealth?

Stahlberg
06-11-2006, 04:00 AM
Someone on the other side of the globe of me has no idea how to create a movie, TV show, etc. that relates to my own nation.
LOL yeah right... that might apply to a country like Albania or Mongolia but not the United States of America! The one country through history that has spread its culture most thoroughly through the world? :D I'm no American but I could certainly work on an American feature and no one would know the difference. Same goes for most well educated people from most countries of the world.

vicky_1
06-11-2006, 07:05 AM
arghh...too many to quote, but anyway!

Isn't this exactly what America, like any civilization wanted and the rest didn't? My ol'man laments abt how we're losing our culture and aping the west.
What better platform than this to slide in americanism:twisted: ! Every country is bcoming a mirror of america, like it or not.
Hopefully, somewhere along my culture will have an influence on it and a culture form will evolve that adapts the best, worst and all inbetween of both!
Its not a good sight to see our core heritage getting blasted through! But hey I'm not complaining bcoz of the empty part of the cup (which is more from where i see)!

I love Americans. I love russians, japanese, british, arabs, chinese, africans. I love pakistanis too! But i don't mind if u don't feel the same.

Digressing. Shutting up!:D

albedo4800hp
06-11-2006, 09:38 AM
In the long run, everybody. 100 years from now or 200 or whatever, no nation will be much worse off than any other financially speaking. Standard of living will be roughly the same all over the world, with roughly the same spread between high and low within each region.
The question then becomes: are you for or against this trend? Do you want to keep it the way it is today (or yesterday)? Or are you for a more equal distribution of wealth?

I am definitely for the later but I have doubts that you are right on this. There are many indications that outsourcing is not doing this. For example look at the uprising in textil workers in Bangladesh a couple of weeks ago. Look how the local government was fast to react on this to keep western cloth companies assured. These companies basically make a fortune by manufacturing it there and sell it for 100 times the amount in your local store. How much does the local worker earn there I think it was about 5-10 $ a month? Okay you've got a logistic issue there as well but that does not eat up your margins too much. It just increases entropy.

I state unless SuperAI will not be developed in 100 years (to balance world production and consumption and distribution of goods because it can not be corrupted) I don't think we will ever see a change, the greediness in man doesn't seem to have a limit but that doesn't matter by that time we are pretty much f*cked anyway. :D Unless we start thinking about certain matters more seriously.

d_jnaneswar
06-11-2006, 10:46 AM
"Love thy neighbour like you love thyself" is the only answer.

I know.. no religious talk on this forum.. but i am not saying this in a religious sense of the word, but a logical sense.

Only when each of us can love our neighbour (person, state, country) then we will share with them rightly. Then there wont be two classes that go by "rich and poor" and Only then does something like this stops happening. When we "SHARE" is the keyword here. All this fuss wont be going on if the head of dreamworks shares the prosperity with all other Americans. We in India need to learn to share knowledge and income with our poorer citizen and neighbours.. the top people need to share it with the bottom rung in the organizations and so on..
But how will it work? I mean, if every one is the same, how will the society work? Who will do the hard work if every one is happy to live in AC rooms? The answer lies in "HELP". Work becomes service then.. service to the society. And every one will work hard for the entire society. Just like the Millitary guys struggle hard to keep fit, not just for themselves, but for the country that they defend.

Thats ideal. Very ideal. And very unlikely that it will happen in near future. But nevertheless, until it happens, work will be outsourced, jobs will be lost and the world will keep swinging from one side to the other.

I love America for the fact that it worked hard to be where it is today. We have been ready to work hard all the time.. only.. now we are getting a chance. We shall work hard to become as prosperous as America.
God bless us all.

dj

Stahlberg
06-11-2006, 12:43 PM
How much does the local worker earn there I think it was about 5-10 $ a month?
And how much do you think they'd be making if the factories had never come there in the first place? Of course it's a shame how low they're paid... but at least it's the first step on the path. It's taken the West a couple hundred years to come this far; hopefully (probably), with our help it won't take that long for the less developed nations.

I don't think we will ever see a change,
Check the link to the animated graphs I posted, you'll see it's literally changing every year, all in the same direction... the overall trend is very clear.

the greediness in man doesn't seem to have a limit
I think it obviously does but that's a different discussion.
Anyway how is greed a problem? It's the main drive behind all commerce and trade and striving for a better life. We'd still be nomad savages if we had no greed. Greed is what eventually will lift the less developed nations to the level of the more developed ones.

CupOWonton
06-11-2006, 05:43 PM
And let me add to that by saying.. Global statistics are BS. People ask special questions to get desired answers, not real answers.

jdsb
06-11-2006, 06:10 PM
And let me add to that by saying.. Global statistics are BS. People ask special questions to get desired answers, not real answers.
who is asking special questions, what the hell do you mean by special questions to get desired answers ,and if you have special questions find special people to give you what YOU want to hear..., i dont see what you mean and what you are trying to say here.
as far as global statistics are concerned , we wouldnt have them if they werent important. FYI ,they affect each and every one of us...i smell BS somewhere else...

albedo4800hp
06-11-2006, 08:12 PM
And how much do you think they'd be making if the factories had never come there in the first place? Of course it's a shame how low they're paid... but at least it's


Hard to say I agree since that would mean to go 300-500 years back and let them develop by themself and see what society they will come up with but nowadays it is too hard to speculate about that I am afraid. The mess has been done.



Check the link to the animated graphs I posted, you'll see it's literally changing every year, all in the same direction... the overall trend is very clear.



Honestly I don't trust statistics much, I know too much about how you easily can manipulate them to show what you want to show. I would rather see the situation by myself see how the people really live and feel. And when I look around in this world I'll get the impression the gap between rich and poor is enlarging not closing no matter what your graphs try to tell me yeah but maybe I am fixed I'll admit.



Anyway how is greed a problem? It's the main drive behind all commerce and trade and striving for a better life. We'd still be nomad savages if we had no greed. Greed is what


Greed is the source of disparity, it feeds other stronger more dangerous feelings in humans. In general greed is something which drives the personal interest of a single individum mostly and I don't count that as good force, sorry. Commerce and trade yeah sounds positive doesn't it. On the first glance it maybe it does. But then think again with what we have to pay this commerce and trade with basically with our planet. And yeah greed is a driving force but so is curiosity which is a much more positive force if you ask me and curiosity does not need greed at all. And I would say most of men great invensions are driven by later than by greed.

In my opinion greed has no positive feedback at all but maybe I have a different definition of greed.


eventually will lift the less developed nations to the level of the more developed ones.


Nope that is exactly what greed will not achieve. Because it only works with I have something you don't have and I want more because the fear of loosing it again increases with more I'll get so I need more to feel more secure and because I have more my fear gets bigger and I think you can get the rest from here.

Stahlberg
06-12-2006, 03:36 AM
And I would say most of men great invensions are driven by later than by greed.

No, that's idealistic which is nice, but not realistic. Curiosity alone is not strong enough to explain what the human race has accomplished. Most if not all scientific discoveries come about due to a feverish intensity of action, a burning obsession with finding the truth before someone else does - pure ambition. Just look at how anal scientists are about who gets the credit, when and how to publish, etc. They're like Olympic athletes competing for the gold. Or worse, in fact, I've heard they can get really vicious about it.

Honestly I don't trust statistics much, I know too much about how you easily can manipulate them to show what you want to show. I'll get the impression the gap between rich and poor is enlarging not closing no matter what your graphs try to tell me
They're not my graphs. The credentials of gapminder.com are beyond reproach. And please describe exactly how we could manipulate figures on child mortality at different ages, school attendance at different levels, etc etc, enough so that they tell a completely different story? These numbers can be checked by anyone, especially easy today with the internet.
Anyway who said the gap between richest and poorest isn't enlarging, did you actually look at all those graphs? As I mentioned, Africa keeps lagging. And the gap is enlarging within many countries too. But my point is, on the average most countries are moving forward, not backward.

Nope that is exactly what greed will not achieve. Because it only works with I have something you don't have and I want more because the fear of loosing it again increases with more I'll get so I need more to feel more secure and because I have more my fear gets bigger
you have a strange exaggerated picture of business.
'Greed' is wanting to have a better life. As simple as that. For some that translates to more money, for some to fame, for some to both. There are plenty ways to run a business where you can get both, without murdering little children and eating them raw. Of course greed gets out of hand sometimes, that's probably what you're referring to.

Now, do the poor want to have a better life? You bet. Perhaps even more than the complacent rich who already have everything the poor want.
Most average guys when they have a house, two cars, a wife and kids and pets and enough money in the bank for retirement and school for the kids, will slow down and perhaps even loose all ambition. It's called 'enjoying the fruits of your labours'. While the poor person can never stop, he keeps working at 110% until he drops. Therefore, it stands to reason that a community of rich middleclass (the industrialised West) will produce less and make less than a community of poor (underdeveloped nations). Obviously, helped by outsourcing and copying (like Japan and Korea did), eventually the underdeveloped country WILL catch up.
So, greed will ensure the equality of wealth in the long term. It's a self-stabilizing system.

albedo4800hp
06-12-2006, 05:28 PM
No, that's idealistic which is nice, but not realistic. Curiosity alone is not strong enough to explain what the human race has accomplished. Most if not all scientific discoveries come about due to a feverish intensity of action, a burning obsession with finding the truth before someone else does - pure ambition. Just look at how anal scientists are about who gets the credit, when and how to publish, etc. They're like Olympic athletes competing for the gold. Or worse, in fact, I've heard they can get really vicious about it.


I'll disagree with you on that you're right in the last part of what you say though and that is a perfect example of how trade and commerce prinicples corrupt things. People or better say governments and companies started to apply commerce and trade rules to science & research and of course by doing so people start to get into competion with each other for funding and yeah maybe also for pride. But higher reputitions means basically more funding. Go back 100-200 years and you will see that this was not true in those times or at least nto to such an extreme. Neither the theory of evolution by Darwin nor Einstein's Relativity Theory was driven by this, nor Newton's optic and mechanical physics principles. The mathematic research by Leipniz, etc, etc. Sure many scientific people often seemd to be extravagance in their appearance in society and personal sometimes maybe even a bit bitchy as we would say today (Newton is a perfect example for this) but science was driven less seldom by commercial interests (as it is sadly mostly today) but by curiosity, fun, and searching for the truth. Not for applications and commerce.


They're not my graphs. The credentials of gapminder.com are beyond reproach. And please describe exactly how we could manipulate figures on child mortality at different ages, school attendance at different levels, etc etc, enough so that they tell a completely different story?


Easy! Through the source of data coverage, do you know where they got the data from exactly, how reliable their sources are? For example if the data is received by governments or state organization I would not put a cent of trust into them since no one wants to look that bad.


These numbers can be checked by anyone, especially easy today with the internet.


So? It is tremendous easy to spread misinformation through the internet I think we all know that.


at all those graphs? As I mentioned, Africa keeps lagging. And the gap is enlarging within many countries too. But my point is, on the average most countries are moving forward, not backward.


I'll agree on that if you define first what the level of zero is. You can only measure direction if you have a point of reference. So where is your reference point?



'Greed' is wanting to have a better life. As simple as that. For some that translates to more money, for some to fame, for some to both. There are plenty ways to run a business


No greed in my book is beyond that point. Have a better life stops at having a safe life for now and probably for tomorrow.


where you can get both, without murdering little children and eating them raw. Of course greed gets out of hand sometimes, that's probably what you're referring to.


Sure I'll agree with you, you are not necessarily bad or evil (whatever that is) or anything by running a business. You only have to be aware of the long chain of causality that arises when you are doing business and making/taking decissions. Sadly most people nowadays do not look further than beyond the second link of that chain.


Most average guys when they have a house, two cars, a wife and kids and pets and enough money in the bank for retirement and school for the kids, will slow down and perhaps even


And that's already too much if you'll take for example the average guy in the United States he consumes resources on this planet for already ten people do you think that's ok?


a community of poor (underdeveloped nations). Obviously, helped by outsourcing and copying (like Japan and Korea did), eventually the underdeveloped country WILL catch up.
So, greed will ensure the equality of wealth in the long term. It's a self-stabilizing system.


No it's not since their is a fixed number of things in the world. Capitalism and in its extreme global capitalism works only as long as someone loses and someone gains. It's a self-disparity system. Best example is stock market which is the most extreme form of free-market.

Atwooki
06-12-2006, 07:09 PM
Greed (dictionary definition): An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one
needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

In orange - love that entry :D

The * ahem * more than 'non-Afghani' surname gives a little away there:
Are you in the 'outsourcing trade', Mr. Groehlheimer?

Stahlberg
06-12-2006, 07:12 PM
It almost sounds like you still haven't really looked very closely at that website I mentioned. Here's a link to the faq in case you missed it while you were there:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/faq/

brief description of the HDRO:
The Human Development Report is an independent report. It is commissioned by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and is the product of a selected team of leading scholars, development practitioners and members of the Human Development Report Office of UNDP. IN 2004, after 10 years as the Lead Author Sakiko Fukuda-Parr was followed by Kevin Watkins, current Lead Author and Director of the Human Development Report Office.

So there you go, just email them all your questions.

average guy in the United States he consumes resources for ten people do you think that's ok?
Seems statistics are ok with you, as long as they agree with your opinions :)

albedo4800hp
06-12-2006, 08:01 PM
Greed (dictionary definition):

In orange - love that entry :D

The * ahem * more than 'non-Afghani' surname gives a little away there:
Are you in the 'outsourcing trade', Mr. Groehlheimer?

Maybe you should ask that Mr Stahlberg since the dictionary definition you posted follows exactly my personal definition of greed but not Mr Stahlberg's. Besides yes I'll admit I am against globalization as it is practised for many reasons and because the only one who gains something out of it are big corporations their CEO(s) and stock-holders and they give a shit about the people they outsource to or from.

albedo4800hp
06-12-2006, 08:16 PM
It almost sounds like you still haven't really looked very closely at that website I mentioned. Here's a link to the faq in case you missed it while you were there:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/faq/

brief description of the HDRO:



As far as I can tell the gapminder has nothing to do with the HDRO you posted a link to the gapminder and it's FAQ says (http://tools.google.com/gapminder/faq.html)

Where did you get the data?

The application shows data from World Development Indicators 2006 from the World Bank.

The WORLD BANK yep a highly corrupted organization run by whom again? Oh yeah Mr. Wolfowitz hmm yeah a very trust worthy person oh wait a minute wasn't he part of the think tank neo conservatives that endorsed the attack on Iraq? :rolleyes:

But thanks for the link to the UN report anyway I will read it! Hope you did as well. But that does not apply that I will come to the same conclusion.



Seems statistics are ok with you, as long as they agree with your opinions :)

Point taken fair enough! :p

CupOWonton
06-12-2006, 08:33 PM
OK, so, we outsource.
Now a bunch of people lose their jobs.
And the Company gets to keep more of its money by paying the indian labour 1/10th the ammount of an american artist.. so.. $1500-2000 a year.

Great, so now we have completly jobless people, and an even richer set of executives. Either way, People lose. So are you saying its magicly better that other people in another country get paid, wile the other's in the original job position now sit around waiting for work wile their funds dissapear?

And what about when many companies do this?
How are they going to keep all their sales up when no one has a job? They'll literaly bring their own country down to its knees by not keeping a large enough cash flow around its own population.

Njen
06-13-2006, 02:17 AM
OK, so, we outsource.
Now a bunch of people lose their jobs.
And the Company gets to keep more of its money by paying the indian labour 1/10th the ammount of an american artist.. so.. $1500-2000 a year.

Great, so now we have completly jobless people, and an even richer set of executives. Either way, People lose.

Not the people in India who are being outsourced too.

So are you saying its magicly better that other people in another country get paid, wile the other's in the original job position now sit around waiting for work wile their funds dissapear?

Your job is not a right, it's a privledge. Anyway, as far as jobs moving around, that is capitalism for you. The US has embraced capitalism with all it's strengths and weaknesses. Jobs move around all the time, from city to city, and country to country.

And what about when many companies do this?
How are they going to keep all their sales up when no one has a job? They'll literaly bring their own country down to its knees by not keeping a large enough cash flow around its own population.

What brand is your computer? Where were the parts made? What about your TV and other AV equipment? Clothes? Kitchen utensils? I doubt that everything you own is made in your own country. What about fruit and vegetables? Do you buy locally, or imported?
Many companies are already doing it. and people in the US do not seem to care that they are buying imported over locally made goods.

JeffB
06-13-2006, 02:33 AM
Ok one other thought.

What if the companies outsourcing work had to pay a fair rate across the world. Not simply whatever payrate the market in that country currently might be. But what if an animator in India had to make what an animator in the US is paid. In other words, what if the playing field was leveled.

I'm not saying I have a clue how to accomplish this. But it seems to me that to be most fair, a company should be paying workers the same wage across the mutlinational company. It seems almost like slave labor to say that workers in India (or anywhere) need less to live on and can stand to live in poverty because well that is where they live...

Jeff Baker
Instructor Computer Animation
New Mexico State University

Njen
06-13-2006, 02:46 AM
Ok one other thought.

What if the companies outsourcing work had to pay a fair rate across the world. Not simply whatever payrate the market in that country currently might be. But what if an animator in India had to make what an animator in the US is paid. In other words, what if the playing field was leveled.

Companies don't pay the same across a country let alone internationally.

CupOWonton
06-13-2006, 05:03 AM
Not the people in India who are being outsourced too.
... Again, The point was, EITHER WAY someone is going to have a job, and someone ISNT. So are you saying its BETTER that people lose their jobs to outsourcing?

Somehow its better that in the process:
-People lose their jobs and end up in worse debt than they were before.
-Execs make more money by saving tons by not paying local professionals who are usualy already in debt from schooling and being forced to move out to a new state in order to get work.

Great freaking reasoning.

Your job is not a right, it's a privledge. Anyway, as far as jobs moving around, that is capitalism for you. The US has embraced capitalism with all it's strengths and weaknesses. Jobs move around all the time, from city to city, and country to country.
However, by outsourcing, theyre ruining lives in the process.

What brand is your computer? Where were the parts made? What about your TV and other AV equipment? Clothes? Kitchen utensils? I doubt that everything you own is made in your own country. What about fruit and vegetables? Do you buy locally, or imported?
Many companies are already doing it. and people in the US do not seem to care that they are buying imported over locally made goods.

There are millions of homeless in america alone, those jobs could easily be filled but vampiric buisness exexs decided they could fill their pockets many times over by outsourcing for dimes.

I dont know of any fruits that arent grown localy.
Then again, I dont shop at fiesta often, but Im fairly sertain with greenhouses you can set up grow environments for any fruit or vegitable.

jasondesigns
06-13-2006, 05:54 AM
Been watching this thread for a while and just thought I'de add my 2 cents. I am afraid there is no easy answer to this problem. Do I agree with outsourcing? I believe that all people should be given equal oppurtunity in their lives... where ever they are from. That is definately not the case in the world today. I am happy that artists in India will have the oppurtunity to work doing what they love... As I have been afforded this, and know how bad I have always wanted it. I had to move to another country to do so.

I don't think Dreamworks will set up CG sweatshops and start churning out features... Quality matters in what we do... So some standards will have to be there. I think competition is good, it will make us strive to become better artists. It depends how much you want it, Im an American, I moved out of the country to work...
I believe in the long run India and China have huge potential as markets that need to be catered to, any way you look at that, it will be more work for artists.

Yes executives are getting richer and richer on the backs of others. Such is the way it has always been. I don't claim to have any answer for this. But if George Lucas's prediction that most films will be indie productions in the near future is correct, then perhaps(at least in film industry) some of those greedy execs in the film industry will be out of a job. And artists will have more control over what they produce.

andy_maxman
06-13-2006, 06:08 AM
Do I agree with outsourcing? I believe that all people should be given equal oppurtunity in their lives... where ever they are from. That is definately not the case in the world today.

Yes executives are getting richer and richer on the backs of others. Such is the way it has always been. I don't claim to have any answer for this.

pretty damn right mate...

on outsourcing - in the end..its a business after all...
i guess if you or i were to run it..we would probably end up doing the same thing...
it does not take much to let the greed factor seep in...esp. if one is a businessman...

-peace

tjabba
06-13-2006, 06:26 AM
Somehow its better that in the process:
-People lose their jobs and end up in worse debt than they were before.
-Execs make more money by saving tons by not paying local professionals who are usualy already in debt from schooling and being forced to move out to a new state in order to get work.
Yes, it's better. People loose their jobs all the time, and mostly they get new ones fairly soon. And mostly they're better than the old one. I know cause it's happened to me many times. Further: this is not a situation where normally people would get fired outright - jobs moving away simply means (usually) they never get hired in the first place. A big difference on the individual level, being fired usually comes more suddenly with less possibility of planning etc.
Finance 101: force companies to pay too much (like for instance forbid them to outsource) and you push them one step closer to chapter 11. Let execs cut the costs they want, any outsider control into that is bound to backfire down the line. Who USUALLY knows better how to run any given company - the guys who founded it? or some government official who wasn't able to cut it in the real world, and who really doesn't care as long as everything's done according to his paragraphs?

However, by outsourcing, theyre ruining lives in the process.
Not true as noted above.
And anyway, which country better needs those jobs? America, with about 4 million homeless (but usually not starving to death) and over 200 million "well-to-do" people (by developing nation standards)?
Or India, with 700 million living on less than 2$/day, 250 million on less than 1$/day?

There are millions of homeless in america alone, those jobs could easily be filled
I'm not sure where you're going with that point, surely you're not suggesting to hire homeless Americans as animators? :)

I dont know of any fruits that arent grown localy.
Then again, I dont shop at fiesta often, but Im fairly sertain with greenhouses you can set up grow environments for any fruit or vegitable.
Yeah, and the produce would be 4 or 5 times as expensive! The households of America, especially the struggling ones, would lower their consumption of produce drastically, driving the price even higher, in a vicious spiral until all the farmers are either 100% subsidized by the government (meaning the tax payer pays for them, whether or not he chooses to buy them, and if he does buy them he pays twice) or bankrupt. Is that what you want?

Njen
06-13-2006, 07:05 AM
... Again, The point was, EITHER WAY someone is going to have a job, and someone ISNT. So are you saying its BETTER that people lose their jobs to outsourcing?

According to your post, it sounded like everyone loses:
Either way, People lose.
Someone loses a job, and someone gains a job. So while some people lose, there are also people who gain. But then again, who said that anyone is going to lose their job in the first place? Dreamworks could be opening another studio to put out more work.


Somehow its better that in the process:
-People lose their jobs and end up in worse debt than they were before.
-Execs make more money by saving tons by not paying local professionals who are usualy already in debt from schooling and being forced to move out to a new state in order to get work.

People lose their jobs, but then get other jobs. The rich get richer. Execs make lot's of money, and they always will. People will get by, live a good life and be happy. It happens, that's life. Just make sure you rememebr that a job is a privledge and not a right. Keep learning and getting better. Make yourself worth the money people pay for you. EVERY single talented person I know have always had work.

fyi, I have moved countries two times (and moved states an extra two times) and am looking at my third international move soon, so I think I know the situation as well as most about having to move for work.

Great freaking reasoning.
Chillout.

jAcK_sAmuRaI_jAcK
06-13-2006, 07:14 AM
...
There are millions of homeless in america alone, those jobs could easily be filled but vampiric buisness exexs decided they could fill their pockets many times over by outsourcing for dimes.


http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

Maybe you should get your priorties straight then..

nvvm
06-13-2006, 07:18 AM
The more stuff that is outsourced the weaker this country will get, I'm speaking out strictly against outsourcing. Look at how indebt we are, sadly no one cares until it's too late. More jobs means more taxes which are used to run our country and when you consider that we have lots of immigrants coming over and a lot of jobs are being outsourced eventually something has got to give, and it'll happen soon.

Look at the value of our money, it certainly doesnt seem to be getting stronger, if the trend of outsourcing continues the american markets will start to dwindle and american companies will be at the mercy of the foreign countries some of which doesnt like us, some who buy from us and some that wants to destroy us.

Take the xbox 360(poor example I know) clearly rejected for instance americans buy from the japanese companies but they don't buy from us. We embrace their culture, they borrow from ours, we arent a popular place yet we are at the same time. Sure some american companies have success overseas, but for the most part I think the overseas companies doing a lot better here then american companies are over there.

I am sleepy, I hope I explained myself well enough, I probably won't post again things seem touchy.

vicky_1
06-13-2006, 07:19 AM
...Yeah, and the produce would be 4 or 5 times as expensive! The households of America, especially the struggling ones, would lower their consumption of produce drastically, driving the price even higher, in a vicious spiral until all the farmers are either 100% subsidized by the government (meaning the tax payer pays for them, whether or not he chooses to buy them, and if he does buy them he pays twice) or bankrupt. Is that what you want?

I agree with your observations there!

You wonder where something which began as an aesthetic endeavor of self expression and evolved into a need and later into a multi-billion $$$ market lost its soul in the big bad corporate world! No, think about it.
Entertainment industry is unlike any other. U dont NEED it. U want it. Not the same, right! And now the scenario is looping back and has started chewing its own tail for survival.
Entertainment is now a deadly serious business. It is not something u can brush off. From a fancy plugin it has become something that can hurts if tampered with.
I'm scaring myself now. Seriously! Millions of people r affected everytime the entertainment monster heaves!
Say we categorize what we need and what we want. The world with reference to this point is divided into 2. Those who have, want that extra gloss and the works. And those who don't have, obviously want what they need.

albedo4800hp
06-13-2006, 08:01 AM
Not the people in India who are being outsourced too.



Your job is not a right, it's a privledge. Anyway, as far as jobs moving around, that is capitalism for you. The US has embraced capitalism with all it's strengths and weaknesses. Jobs move around all the time, from city to city, and country to country.



Wrong having or at least having the chance to have a job is actually a human right it is covered by the internation human rights. Suprisingly people and especially governments tend to forget that.

Njen
06-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Wrong having or at least having the chance to have a job is actually a human right it is covered by the internation human rights. Suprisingly people and especially governments tend to forget that.

I meant having a job in the cg industry in particular. I don't know if international human rights covers that... ;)

Ahmattu
06-13-2006, 04:01 PM
I'm living in the middle east, (the Arab Gulf specificaly), and the Indians here are more than the locals, they are everywhere, and I will tell you true things about them here in the middle east.

- you can't easily give a general thought about indians because they are A LOT!,

- they have their own communites here and they speak thier own "Thick Indian english",

- all the other nationalities have problems here in getting most of the jobs because the indians can take the jobs for less, (you moslty see indians "programming, banking, accounting, sales, marketing, secretary, and the other small jobs like taxi drivers and labors).
and regarding CG jobs, you rarely find an Indian cg designer in a good position here except its a very commercial and (cheap) company.

due to their huge popularity, off course you will find some talented Indian artists, but can anybody tells me how often, what's the percent"%"???

Iridyse
06-13-2006, 05:07 PM
- you can't easily give a general thought about indians because they are A LOT!,
Er yes. And that applies everywhere, doesn't it?

- they have their own communites here and they speak thier own "Thick Indian english",
And the Australians have their own version, so do the Americans. What's language got anything to do with CG?

- all the other nationalities have problems here in getting most of the jobs because the indians can take the jobs for less, (you moslty see indians "programming, banking, accounting, sales, marketing, secretary, and the other small jobs like taxi drivers and labors).

This has been discussed a gazillion times already, so I will not go there again.

due to their huge popularity, off course you will find some talented Indian artists, but can anybody tells me how often, what's the percent"%"???

"Due to their huge popularity you will find some talented Indian artists"? I really don't follow that statement.Maybe I'm just stupid, yea. I should stick to manual labour and driving cabs.
And there are plenty of talented Indian artists around. Will knowing a number make you feel better?


I just really don't see the point of your post except for a frustrated "omg-I-have-to-join-the-Indian-bashingness". It's rather puerile.

Flog
06-13-2006, 05:13 PM
A good artist is a good artist, period, there is nothing based on race, location, age or sex that determines you are good or not.

A man should be judged on his work.

Now if that man does the same job you do for 1/2 the price, it goes to another rule.

Business is Business!! You have to compete either way you look at it.

Whether your competing with an individual from another country or in your own city, it's still competition. You have to bid and you can either accept the pay or not.
Business is Business.

It's a cut throat world of competition. Heck you even have to compete with "POSER" users who can do the job in 1/4th of the time for human type work and demos.

You'll just have to compete in a world market. Eventually things will balance out and you'll be able to get jobs in other parts of the world yourself. That's the good news. You can work for other countries yourself one day, or work smart in your own.

You think your local firm who knows little about CG will actually outsource? There is more than CG movies, there are tons of local businesses who could use your services. Just work smart and be competitve and you will not have to worry about outsourcing.

CupOWonton
06-13-2006, 06:26 PM
What can be gathered from peoples responses to outsourcing from american companies to other countrys.

Its ok for people to lose their jobs and end up in even more debt than they already are as long as someone else in india gets the job instead.

Its ok for the large ammount of companies who outsource to pocked even more money from it which just destroys the market.

Its ok that when outsourcing the company doesnt have to care weither or not the company they are outsourcing is actualy humane, or even uses legal software. China and most of asia realy is known for professional use of pirated software on a massive scale. Again, just more money that gets to be taken away from develiopers and other people who work their tails off.

So apparently, it doesnt matter how many people outsourcing hurts, as long as someone else other than an american gets the job. If you dont like how that sounds, then maybe you should rethink what you type.

Flog
06-13-2006, 06:59 PM
Its ok for people to lose their jobs and end up in even more debt than they already are as long as someone else in india gets the job instead.



It is sad that people will lose their jobs or can lose their jobs. But many jobs have been shipped to another country but then again unemployment rate is actually at a low in this country. Many of these evil companies out to make a buck end up having to bring the work in house, there are other jobs created to oversee outsourcers to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow. I speak from experience as my job was outsourced, however I then took on a more auditor role. In fact all in my group had a job here that was outsourced, but we are now in charge of overseeing the outsourcers and monitoring them (that means I no longer do tech support and have a higher paying job, all because of outsourcing)

Of all the programmers I know whose job was outsourced, they found a better programming job for a smaller company instead of the big corporation. In fact I know one guy who lost his 100,000 a year job who found a higher paying job in a more freelance venue, and he now outsources two guys from India, pays them fair, and he let's them do all the grunt work, he oversees and then debugs and delivers the product. Is that fair? Well that is how business works. You work for a big company, help it operate and the people make millions at the top. Just business.

Its ok that when outsourcing the company doesnt have to care weither or not the company they are outsourcing is actualy humane, or even uses legal software. China and most of asia realy is known for professional use of pirated software on a massive scale. Again, just more money that gets to be taken away from develiopers and other people who work their tails off.

It's wrong to make people work in adverse conditions, PERIOD!! It's also wrong to used pirated copies of something to make money, PERIOD!! But it is also wrong to assume that since the company is in a foreign land not your own that they are crooks, PERIOD!! Yes we know many companies foreign to us and even in our own country, no one excluded and not based on country, but many of them do use pirated software but we do not go around accusing them unless we have proof. It is a sore of prejudice to assume they are in a foreign country and so automatically their company is full of crooks.

I think there should be a balance.

I think also that outsourcing can create opportunities for the smaller business venues. I'm making an indie film, and have hired freelancers from various countries to do some quality work for me. I'm sorry I can't pay a local fellow a certain price but can afford someone of the same caliber in another country. We negotiate a price and usually their work environment is their home, so I don't know how adverse that is.

If I had the money however, I would be able to widen my selection by choosing artists based solely on talent. Oh believe me if I had the money I have a list of who's who to make the movie but then again some of those great artists are still not local. Some are from Latin America, some from Japan, others from India, Canada, US, China, etc. So even if I had millions for my film I would still be looking globally and picking from various groups for the work. Globalization has led to a bigger talent pool.

Is it fair someone get a job and you didn't because someone liked their art more? Is it fair you may be a better artist but someone sold himself a little better. Outsource or not, you still have to compete with a world talent. You won't go jobless if your creative enough, outsource or not.

CupOWonton
06-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Is it fair someone get a job and you didn't because someone liked their art more? Is it fair you may be a better artist but someone sold himself a little better. Outsource or not, you still have to compete with a world talent. You won't go jobless if your creative enough, outsource or not.

Keep on believing that. Whatever gets you through the night knowing tons of tallented people lose their jobs not because they arent some of the best artists in the world, but because someone in china who uses pirated software and a shop full of underpaid people can produce less quality but at a high speed and for pennies to the dollar.

People are no longer judged by the quality of their work when it comes to trying to sell something, it all comes down to cost, and what people will and wont take. If theyre willing to accept something of an incredibly small quality compared to work you can produce, theyll dump you for the cheaper rout no matter how loyal youve been. Its not about creativity and innovation, its about minimum acceptability for the highest proffits.

Flog
06-13-2006, 07:56 PM
What I mean by creative enough, is that there are those who are great artists, and there are those who are great marketters.

If you are creative in finding a job you will find one. Outsourcing will rarely be the reason you don't have a job. There are too many local companies that don't have the time to deal with outsourcers.

I've seen even TV commercials using CG, local TV commercials. Not the national commercials but local yocal folks. Why not approach them on their next commercial?

What about the local manufactoring company, local home builders, see if they need previz work?

there is just so many venues and possibilites to look for.

Whatever gets you through the night knowing tons of tallented people lose their jobs not because they arent some of the best artists in the world

What about the tons of other artists in starving countries who would have never even had the opportunity to become an animator or CG artist just because of where they live?

So if I was born in India, China, Singapore, Malaysia, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, etc, I'm automatically not supposed to ever have an opportunity to be in the animation field? SOL for you because you were not born in an industrialized country. So they should be out of work too?

It is really not a win win situation for everyone. Outsourcing does take jobs, but it also gives jobs. So who should have the right to work, you or them? Well everyone should have that right, but it is also survival of the fittest.

Simply put you'll have to compete and sell yourself. If they do it for half the price, then you do it 10xs better or in half the time.

Is it fair that someone has more talent in their left pinky than I have in both hands? It's called competition.

It is unfair though to generalize and automatically say they are using illegal software because they are from a certain country. There are a ton of folks working in the US who do the same thing.

People on this very board have to compete with one another for the same jobs.

CupOWonton
06-13-2006, 09:03 PM
Again,

Most proffit X Speedier time. They dont give a crap if youre 10X better than the 10X as many workers that can shove out lesser quality garbage in a faster ammount of time for pennies.

You honestly dont get it. You think everyone can MAGICLY find a job in their field after theyve lost theirs to outsourcing. You were LUCKY. You were in the right place at the right time and knew the right people. Most people cant get that when theyve lost their jobs to outsourcing.

And its HARD to find another job in ones field because EVERYONE is outsourcing work in your field when you lose your job to outsourcing. Its a buisness trend that practacly every firm is going to follow. " Oh hey, Shell is outsourcing their IT to india and making tons of proffit, lets do that too! *quickly jumps on the outsourcing bandwaggon*"

Flog
06-13-2006, 09:13 PM
I do get outsourcing and I see the evil in it, but I also see the good. Yin Yang effect to it.

There are those evil companies who put 1000s of people to work in the slave camps of outsourcing putting thousand others out of work.

That is sad and in some ways disgusting.

But then there are those 1000s in developing countries who also get an opportunity they never would have had before.

Outsourcing has it's good and bad aspects.

Those on the other end of outsourcing ( the losing side of it) can still survive though and outsourcing is not the end all to your industry. Alot of times they are doomed for awhile, but they get on their feet and better than before. Many a friend of mine lost jobs to outsourcing, mine was on the line as well, but I positioned myself to take advantage of outsourcing. Many of my other friends hated their job anyways and this gave them the push to find something better, they got out of corporate America and found a more local profitable company where they are more appreciated.

There is good and evil in outsourcing.

I think oversaturation of a market and rising costs of production, rising cost of oil is more dangerous than outsourcing.

Here is an evil of outsourcing
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1799

No wonder some of these groups seem to turnaround and pirate this stuff, or make knock offs.

CupOWonton
06-13-2006, 09:31 PM
Yeah, you and your friends are pretty lucky people.

For new college graduates who got to work a year in their field and were thuroughly tossed out when someone up top realised they could outsource the work to china, well, theyre out of luck. Too much debt, trying to live in an appartment, theyre lucky if they live at home still.
It realy doesnt work out good for most people who lost their jobs to outsourcing. They cant find another lob like that because, HEY, theyre being OUTSOURCED. The Job is GONE, it is somewhere else and it aint coming back.

And this is because a lot of major corperations do not have 'nationality' they consider themselves international, so they realy dont have to care who they screw, they can move office to another country and be done with it.

Also, finding a new job as a tek, is a hell of a lot easier than finding a new job as an artist who has a 2 year degree in 3d animation, most of which only gives them a good handle on scene and object modeling.

Ahmattu
06-13-2006, 10:15 PM
I just really don't see the point of your post except for a frustrated "omg-I-have-to-join-the-Indian-bashingness". It's rather puerile.

sorry hiiri, i think by saying that, your post is the puerile one!

I'm not saying that they are bad nation, and I DON'T think there are bad nation on earth,

and its not only my opinion, these truths that I said are very well known "at least here in the Arab gulf" I don't know about Indians in India,

but realy here if any (non-Indian) "basic to mid-level" CG designer wants to get a job, he cant ask for a good salary because the company tell him: "I can get an Indian with half of your salary if not less", (of course here we are not talking about Art neither quality), because these will be handeled by the senior designers, or directors which are (99.9% not Indians).

this is the indians reputation here in this region and in this industry at least, and you can't change that no matter how you get angry,

I don't know if the Indian CG artists stay in India and not travel... maybe!!

btw, I respect you and everybody (indian or not),

but when people internationaly talk about the CG quality and the Indians here in this thread, you have to expect hearing some truths from different places like here, unless you want to blind the eyes from the truth!!

jdsb
06-14-2006, 12:41 AM
sorry hiiri, i think by saying that, your post is the puerile one!

I'm not saying that they are bad nation, and I DON'T think there are bad nation on earth,

and its not only my opinion, these truths that I said are very well known "at least here in the Arab gulf" I don't know about Indians in India,

but realy here if any (non-Indian) "basic to mid-level" CG designer wants to get a job, he cant ask for a good salary because the company tell him: "I can get an Indian with half of your salary if not less", (of course here we are not talking about Art neither quality), because these will be handeled by the senior designers, or directors which are (99.9% not Indians).

this is the indians reputation here in this region and in this industry at least, and you can't change that no matter how you get angry,

I don't know if the Indian CG artists stay in India and not travel... maybe!!

btw, I respect you and everybody (indian or not),

but when people internationaly talk about the CG quality and the Indians here in this thread, you have to expect hearing some truths from different places like here, unless you want to blind the eyes from the truth!!
well, here in canada , i have never marketed myself for HIRE at HALF PRICE??, i wouldnt do that if i was insane , lol...And i have thankfully never been underpaid for a job either

Njen
06-14-2006, 01:48 AM
So apparently, it doesnt matter how many people outsourcing hurts, as long as someone else other than an american gets the job. If you dont like how that sounds, then maybe you should rethink what you type.

OK, it's this type of thinking that gets me a little annoyed. No one complains when a company in another country opens up an office in the US, but when US companies open up offices elsewhere, suddenly it's all about 'taking work away from Americans'?

This is an international community. No single nationality has a right to work over any other nationality. I see many Americans being hired all around the world in CG positions and I don't hear people from those countries saying things like "American's are taking our jobs!" Please...

CupOWonton
06-14-2006, 02:46 AM
Most massive companies, dont consider themselves american. They may consider themselves european, or japanese when they start in those countrys, but even if they started here, they'll consider themselves "International" and arent giving a crap about anything local.
Hell, they even try and get around american laws by calling themselves international or just associating themselves as part of an office they set up elsewhere.

Bottom line. People here still keep saying that someone else LOSING their job, is ok as long as someone else is getting it because theyre cheaper. Doesnt have anything to do with quality, its price and speed and minimum acceptability for the most pocketable income.

Stahlberg
06-14-2006, 03:26 AM
Bottom line.
The bottom line is, you're so upset because you see your own future threatened. Understandable. But, you're not really concerned about "Americans". Admit it - you really wouldn't post anything online if 5000 raisin wrinkling positions were outsourced from California to Paraguay tomorrow. Same thing if you won the lottery and were suddenly able to buy a whole studio. :)

USA is seen as having come on a bit too strong in the international community (culturally, militarily, financially) since the end of the cold war (since the 50's even). However that may be unfair is not the issue, the feeling is there.
America is now seen as the big fat bully on the block, self-appointed Numero Uno, armed and dangerous and very, very rich. Do you really think his poorer hungrier neighbours are going to sympathize when the bully complains that a diamond fell off his gold tooth?? :)
And stop worrying; if you're any good at all you will find a job in the future.

teSSa
06-14-2006, 05:41 AM
if i were working at DreamWorks SKG right now and hear that i'm getting laid off
because someone's openning a sister company in India, sure i'd be pissed off.
but is that really what the deal is? since i don't know the real deal, i might as
well just suck it up, right? until everything has been clarified and laid out in the
open.

we can't ignore the economics of the industry. we're all materialistic people. no
point in being a martyr. we all need money. and we've all been accustomed to
living our comfortable little lives. having these luxuries stripped away from us
would probably put our heads through the roof.

but i also know that this would be a great opportunity for the indian community
to break through to the international CG industry. so, congratulations! prove
your worth so that the haters can finally put a sock in it.

CupOWonton
06-14-2006, 05:48 AM
The bottom line is, you're so upset because you see your own future threatened. ... if you're any good at all you will find a job in the future.
Oh, god people are so full of it. There is about as much chance of finding an opening in a position thats usualy outsourced as there is getting hit by a car wile sitting on the second floor of an office building. Usualy its going to be a very SMALL company, or youre lucky enough to work at disney's main office before they fire you 2 years later.

Stahlberg
06-14-2006, 07:23 AM
There is about as much chance of finding an opening in a position thats usualy outsourced as there is getting hit by a car wile sitting on the second floor of an office building. Usualy its going to be a very SMALL company, or youre lucky enough to work at disney's main office before they fire you 2 years later.

Then flip burgers! but stop it with the whining already.
You may be 'entitled' to a job (though I say no, only communist countries offer that guarantee), but you sure as hell ain't 'entitled' to your perfect dream job.
I cleaned floors, wiped shit off arses for years. Hundreds of millions of people in the world would sell their souls to be able to flip burgers in America.

down2earth
06-14-2006, 09:11 AM
Dreamworx must be a really f***** big company.. And the CG Industry is probably helping out with the US Defence Budget to make you guys feel so much more secure... ! Im sure this Katsenberg guy must have been to Iraq as well and thought it would be nice to build the Iraq National Museam in CG.. Its a great task and would provide so many million jobs in the CG industry on which the lives of 300 million people depend.. So the thoughtful president who is also a great guy like him tells him that if he blows up the real museum people would be more eager to watch his CG Version and commands his obedient Gladiators to take aim .The Gladiators don't care if they get blown up themselves coz the CG industry is more important for national security so they blow the s*** out of the only remaining artefacts of the Mesopotamian Civilisation (apart from some which may have been gifted to the Saudi oil sheikhs who probably don't know the difference between oil and water, art would be a bit tough subject for them anyway and history would call them nothing better than barbarians )

So what if they were the world's oldest pieces of art forms.. It won't be of much use to the Gaming Industry.. F*** history .. What has history to do with art ? What is there to learn from history.. ? Of course there isn't much, when all that there is in the bloody history is dominance of one nation against many and history will only tell you that this dominance doesn't last forever ! Thats why we don't like history and destroy historical remains that remind us that history repeats.....

Ahmattu
06-14-2006, 10:12 AM
.. F*** history .. What has history to do with art ? What is there to learn from history.. ? Of course there isn't much,

sorry I think u'r wrong here, the history has a lot to do with art.

spikkel
06-14-2006, 10:15 AM
sorry I think u'r wrong here, the history has a lot to do with art.

I think he was being sarcastic

CupOWonton
06-14-2006, 02:06 PM
Then flip burgers! but stop it with the whining already.
You may be 'entitled' to a job (though I say no, only communist countries offer that guarantee), but you sure as hell ain't 'entitled' to your perfect dream job.
I cleaned floors, wiped shit off arses for years. Hundreds of millions of people in the world would sell their souls to be able to flip burgers in America.
Good for them, but FLIPPING BURGERS wont let you LIVE in america. You cant build a hut somewhere and flip burgers and save money. You have to pay for housing somewhere, and the cheapest appartments are incredibly expensive on a minimum wage job. And if youre a college graduate, you might as well be living in a cardboard box.

albedo4800hp
06-14-2006, 05:33 PM
Reading this whole thread again I must say I find it quite amusing and astonishing how people defend a system which is when you think about it not really defendable at all since everyone who opens his eyes and thinks clearly about it can not deny that this business practise or economic system is killing our world at an accelerating pace.

Flog
06-14-2006, 07:40 PM
Good for them, but FLIPPING BURGERS wont let you LIVE in america. You cant build a hut somewhere and flip burgers and save money. You have to pay for housing somewhere, and the cheapest appartments are incredibly expensive on a minimum wage job. And if youre a college graduate, you might as well be living in a cardboard box.

No one really said you have to flip burgers. A lot of folks who love CG and Animation unfortunately have to work doing other things they do not enjoy.

Personally I want to be an animation producer/director, but for now during the day I have to work for "THE MAN" at a corporation babysitting Outsource vendors.

I know coming out of college may be hard and you have tons of bills to pay off and flipping burgers ain't going to cut it but there are jobs out there. My wife and my sister in law both found office admin jobs right out of high school. My wife, had she had taken the promotion would be making around 60,000 a year. I on the other went to college for something totally differant than what I'm doing.

So you can find work, maybe not in the field you want immediately after college. Colleges like you to think that, they make you think you are going to get out and make millions right out of school. Don't believe the hype.

I'm not saying outsourcing is all good, but please do not blame it for your plight or lack of job. Outsourcing honestly is a lot of grunt jobs no one wants. Inbetweeners and stuff like that.

I hope to encourage you that despite the fact that many jobs are going oversees, you have the opportunity yourself to expand your horizons, build your own market at home. Look into your local market and go for the ma and pa places locally. See if they want previz work or something else. There is a market there if you create it yourself.

Outsourcing and going to other less expensive countries could even give you an edge. You can follow suite and make your own business hiring freelancers from around the globe.

Go bid for jobs, go around town asking if they want something done. Have a good reel and show them.

If all else fails work on your reel, contribute to collabs and small projects, do small jobs here and there and work a day job outside your field. You'll find something great eventually, for the time being though you may have to do like 90% of the people out there, work a job you do not care for, for awhile at least.

igorstshirts
06-14-2006, 11:50 PM
I've owned my own business in America for almost eleven years now... A t-shirt shop.

I can buy American made good wage paying slash benefits offering American Apparel wholesale white short-sleeve t-shirts for $3.40 per unit or...

Buy Fruit of the Loom t-shirts manufactured in Honduras for $.90 cents a piece.

I'd love to support the US companies and pass on the great quality goods to my customers but that price dif just won't let me. (Do the math times one hundred). This is not a CG issue, it has nothing to do with greed (at least in my case), it's just a simple case of efficiency and basic economics. My customers want it cheap, fast and pretty good... That dictates my spending habits and business actions. Sure the product is not as "good" but it's good enough for my customer and that's who pays the rent at the shop and the mortgage on my home.

As a business owner, I have to match employee's Fica tax, give them decent hours, wages and benefits, vacation time... Or hire an illegal immigrant and give them none of the above, which I refuse to do, so I pick up the slack and do it all with my mother (She embroiders for me). Neither of us have health insurance or a guarantee that We'll have work tomorrow.

I support American based companies with... Shop insurance premiums, telephone & internet as well as directory advertising, landlord rent, airbrush paint and equipment etc... Even some of these things I would dump for an overseas company with better rates and services if they were provided for us.

Alot of the "big" US companies are very hard to support due to their incredibly inflated pricing and bull nosed tacticts, redic interest rates, late fees, service charges and bad customer support... And we still do it because sometimes there are just no alternatives to the service that they provide.

Chew on that a little:)

CupOWonton
06-15-2006, 01:34 PM
However it IS greed when youre working with big buisnesses. Multi Million/Billion dollar clients who would rather get cheap work done over in china by swetshop workers.

nitindesign
06-15-2006, 02:46 PM
I'm living in the middle east, (the Arab Gulf specificaly), and the Indians here are more than the locals, they are everywhere, and I will tell you true things about them here in the middle east....etc etc

Maybe you should lobby your governement to pay better wages to the cheap labourers you are getting from India? Your country functions as a result of these poor labourers and is undergoing a huge construction boom. Maybe a bit more respect for your fellow human being would be nice. Correct me if I am wrong but the last time I checked the locals in Gulf states were not interested in back breaking construction work.

Ahmattu as you are from middle east maybe you should know better before generalizing like that. I could counter each of your points with worse generalization of people from middle east (specially the ones living in Europe/west)...but then I would be falling into the same trap of ignorance as you.

Reading this thread actually makes me sad as it re-confirms to me that humans are very messed up. So much ignorance and tribal mentality is shocking. If fairly educated people on this forum can't take unbiased look at the world then what chance is there for ignorant people of the world?

My view is simple--> No race, religion, nationality culture should think that they have *GOD given right to be treated as royalty.
*I don't believe in God so my last point is kind of mute :scream:...but you understand what I mean :)

Most of us here don't loose too much sleep for the suffering that exists in the life of folks from third world countries. Why should some person in a third world country give a crap about supporting my or any other westerners high quality of living?

Globalization is good when it benefits USA but globalzation is bad when it does not benefit USA? Pleaseeeeeee get a reality check. If you don't like globalization then turn USA into a closed economy and stop with the globalization mantra that USA has been pimping for so long + handsomely benefiting from.

albedo4800hp
06-15-2006, 03:21 PM
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Globalization is good when it benefits USA but globalzation is bad when it does not benefit USA? Pleaseeeeeee get a reality check. If you don't like globalization then turn USA into a closed economy and stop with the globalization mantra that USA has been pimping for so long + handsomely benefiting from.

I think you still haven't really got it yourself. Globalization isn't good for anyone! It has devestating global effects not counting that is basically a modern form of justifying slavery. Do you really thing the companies that invest will stay for long Don't make me laugh they stay as long as it cost efficient and they will move on as soon as they find a country with even cheaper rates. You can see that already since companies are moving away from India to Philipines where it is even cheaper.

greekdish
06-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Wow...a lot of varying opinions around here. let me add my 3 cents.

Ok...first off, as a few people here already mentioned....NO ONE is entitled to a job by anyone. Whether its an American company, or a foreign company, or a US company in India. I understand people dont like outsourcing because they are losing their jobs, and I can relate to that, BUT, its still not your place to whine and complain about it. People lose their jobs everyday for other reasons besides outsourcing. I got out of the graphics business (pre-press) because they stopped paying. Instead of matching my last wage at $26 an hour, they were looking to hire recent college grads at $10-12 per hour. I couldnt go that low. So I got out of the business. I didnt blame anyone though. How can you blame a company for looking to do things cheaper?? How can you blame a company that finds younger talent? I've seen incredible work around here by 16 yr olds. You know what, If I were to start my own business, I would hire a bunch of skilled unexperienced artists. People mention greed alot here. Why in the world would you start a company NOT to make money?? Thats absurd. Its not greed, its BUSINESS. Of course they are looking to make more money. Thats naive to think they give 2 shits about where they get the work done, and loyalties. Employees have no loyalty to the company, so why expect the same from the company?? Employees have a right to go to any company they want, hired guns....and come and go from different companies going to the highest bidder. And now people complain because companies are doing it also??

Whats the difference if you lose your job to a recent college grad for half your salary, or if you lose it to someone in India?? Does it matter how much the pay difference is?? You lost your job, period.

One thing I always say to people (especially now that I run my own business)....stop pointing the finger, and point the thumb. Take it upon yourself to get a different job, or start your own company. If you arent willing to risk your fortune to start and run a business, then you cant blame others for running their own business. Its THEIRS. If you are talented enough, you will find other things to do.

Some people have mentioned that its slave labor basically, and the quality is inferior. Well then, prove it. Offer a better quality product. A person is free to start whatever business they want here in the US....but it works vice versa...a company is free to hire whoever it wants, and move its business where ever it wants. Its life. Get over it.

CupOWonton
06-15-2006, 04:35 PM
I can blame a company for me losing my job along with many other peoples jobs because theyre pocketing the diffence between the sallary costs, no need to buy software because the people they get their work from now use pirated copies. Hundreds of millions of dollars within 1 large company can be generated for the top execs new yachts by firing all your loyal staff, and sending everything over seas to china or india. They dont 'care' about working conditions elsewhere till someone investigates, then like apple they make a big deal about never knowing * never ASKING* and say theyll fix the problem.. usualy by switching to somehere else where they keep security tighter and people shut up more.

I would blame them because I HAD a job, and now because of them and their dissloyalty to their workers, I would no longer have one.

And when every other company is doing it, it hurts a lot more than a hanfull of people.

greekdish
06-15-2006, 04:51 PM
I can blame a company for me losing my job along with many other peoples jobs because theyre pocketing the diffence between the sallary costs, no need to buy software because the people they get their work from now use pirated copies. Hundreds of millions of dollars within 1 large company can be generated for the top execs new yachts by firing all your loyal staff, and sending everything over seas to china or india. They dont 'care' about working conditions elsewhere till someone investigates, then like apple they make a big deal about never knowing * never ASKING* and say theyll fix the problem.. usualy by switching to somehere else where they keep security tighter and people shut up more.

I would blame them because I HAD a job, and now because of them and their dissloyalty to their workers, I would no longer have one.

And when every other company is doing it, it hurts a lot more than a hanfull of people.

So because the owners have yachts, thats not fair?? LOL. So if I start my own company, I cant make millions and buy a yacht?? Thats the American dream, and everyone's dream. To make it big. You dont start a business just to make ends meet. No one says anything about Bill Gates and Paul Allens yachts (which are as big as a cruise ship). They are the ones who take all the risk in building a business. They lose their life fortunes if the business fails. Not the employee. They can go find a job elsewhere. They are the ones who deserve the rewards. Its arrogant to think that they shouldnt be allowed to buy yachts to enjoy the fruits of their labors.

Again, you have no RIGHT to tell someone how to run their company. If you dont like it, leave the company, or find another line of work. Thats the real world. Not this imaginary world where everyone has a job, and everyone is happy. There is no such thing as a Utopia. If the shoes were on the other foot, you would want a government telling you how to run your business?? You want them telling you who you can or cannot hire??

I think people need to check their ego's. To say that these companies will run pirated software is a lame excuse. They can run pirated software here in the US as well.

nitindesign
06-15-2006, 05:30 PM
I think you still haven't really got it yourself. Globalization isn't good for anyone! It has devestating global effects not counting that is basically a modern form of justifying slavery.

Umm! I think you are the one who did not get my post :) I did not say anywhere that globalization was good or bad.

Globalization is good when it benefits USA but globalzation is bad when it does not benefit USA? Pleaseeeeeee get a reality check. If you don't like globalization then turn USA into a closed economy and stop with the globalization mantra that USA has been pimping for so long + handsomely benefiting from.

This above quote was me questioning the double standards of some people in the USA who are happy to reap the rewards of globalization on a daily basis but complain as soon as they loose a little bit. So I don't know how you infered that I was pro globalization?
That said I have nothing against a truely global and fair free market that does not get manipulated by powerful countries and puppet organizations. I know that will never happen though.
Regarding "globalization being modern form of slavery"...the blame for that to some extent goes to third world corrupt governments as well who don't care at all about the poor.

Btw if jobs move from India to Philippines then so be it. Multinational firms are in the business of making money so it's obvious that $$$ will be their driving force. Big firms rightly or wrongly are in business to line their pockets and not solve world problems. The only way that will change is if we have a communist world---> I hope you know that communism does not work either :)

The reality is that there is no blueprint or perfect solution to world problems. Atleast I don't have any solutions. If you have then do share with us :thumbsup:

albedo4800hp
06-15-2006, 05:40 PM
Again, you have no RIGHT to tell someone how to run their company. If you dont like it, leave the company, or find another line of work. Thats the real world. Not this imaginary

Yes I'll have or at least should have since I thought a democratic state should also ensure basic rights. Freedom is fine as long as freedom is expressed without limiting the freedom or hurting other people or the general public. And I can critize someone when he is doing something which obviously hurts someone else or myself. But some countries have completely lost control over that part of their constitution since the people in charge are now too interwinded, too connected or even themself part of big business so they prefer to fill their own pocket with money and keep their mouth shut.


world where everyone has a job, and everyone is happy. There is no such thing as a Utopia.

Yep you are right there is no such thing as Utopia as long as there is man.


If the shoes were on the other foot, you would want a government telling you how to run your business?? You want them telling you who you can or cannot hire??


Yes it should regulate me when I am obviously doing something which is bad for the general population, yes they should tell me, charge me and even thread me when I am doing something like that. Otherwise we are not far away from Karl Marx's image of total rulership of capital which I see more and more geting established in the world.

CupOWonton
06-15-2006, 07:21 PM
Yes it should regulate me when I am obviously doing something which is bad for the general population, yes they should tell me, charge me and even thread me when I am doing something like that. Otherwise we are not far away from Karl Marx's image of total rulership of capital which I see more and more geting established in the world.

Bingo!

Its one thing for an occasional bad decision to be made. But people who dont just capitolise on their workers, they RAPE Them for everything theyre worth only to pocket everything they can, thats an intentional attack on their own employees. This is beyond simple "bad buisness practices" this is practicaly murder on sertain levels.

If I ran a company, I'd hope that the products we make would generate a lot of proffit.
But I would also want my employees to live the good life too. I wouldnt dump them and decide to go with some poor chinese child workforce to produce cheap electronics just because it means I could afford 10 more boats, it wouldnt be fair to the people I had already hired, and whom obviously had tons of tallent. It wouldnt do me or my area any good to exploit people like that. Big and even medium buisnesses however dont see it that way. Theyve addapted to this " Mandatory Slave Labor" theory in which You can hire and fire anyone for any reason. You can fire someone without cause, and you dont have to feel any moral reprocussions from the lives you ruin in the process. They signed a piece of paper, so moraly you dont have to give a crap about what happens to them even though its your decision that effects their lives. Some people are lucky, they can bounce back fast because they may have some special connections. Most people DONT have connections that can get them a good job. Or a new job that will keep enough money in their home so they dont have to sell all their posessions.

This is why we need robots to mine and manufacture goods, foods, and common services for everyone, that way at least everyone can live in a nice home without having to work, but people would still work just to better their lives, not to exploit everyone around them.
Once you eliminate many of the manual labor jobs, you leave science and entertianment up to the people that want to persue it, and you try to encourage that, that way hopefully you dont end up with a race of fat sluglike creatures that slowly lost their ability to walk.

Ahmattu
06-16-2006, 01:20 AM
']Maybe you should lobby your governement to pay better wages to the cheap labourers you are getting from India? Your country functions as a result of these poor labourers and is undergoing a huge construction boom. Maybe a bit more respect for your fellow human being would be nice. Correct me if I am wrong but the last time I checked the locals in Gulf states were not interested in back breaking construction work.

Ahmattu as you are from middle east maybe you should know better before generalizing like that. I could counter each of your points with worse generalization of people from middle east (specially the ones living in Europe/west)...but then I would be falling into the same trap of ignorance as you.

Reading this thread actually makes me sad as it re-confirms to me that humans are very messed up. So much ignorance and tribal mentality is shocking. If fairly educated people on this forum can't take unbiased look at the world then what chance is there for ignorant people of the world?

Most of us here don't loose too much sleep for the suffering that exists in the life of folks from third world countries. Why should some person in a third world country give a crap about supporting my or any other westerners high quality of living?




Ok nitin, thanks for ur post.


I think you don't know the situation here, and I belive that the west has ignorance about the third world much more than the third world ignorance about the west.



first of, I am not a local person here, (I'm not from gulf) but I'm living there since 5 years, so it's not my government, and this country especially contains a lot of different nationalities, and the Indians are the huge bulk, and this is mostly the case in all the gulf region.

you might ask why there are too many Indians there??, and why we are there ("we" = Arabs from outside the gulf <Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt...>)??
The answer will make things very complicated and it will take me through lots of details that are totally off topic.



But briefly since we are talking about Indians after all:
1 - the gulf region has oil then (oil = money) so the gulf has money.
2 - "most" the gulf locals don't like to educate, they like enjoying luxury stuff, and they can do that, by using money for contraction investment, then invite the foreign skills and experiences, and let them run business in this sensitive and open country in the region, and the locals get fees for the facilities,
3 - they used Indian labors in the beginning to build their facilities, cuz who can do this work?, Locals > impossible, other Arab countries like "us" refuse to do this kind of work in other countries.
4 - Indians ran to these countries and convince the locals that they have the technologies and qualities (they do have the first one), of course "we" don't have the first one (because of political issues and governments and language) but "we" sure have the second one,



Again I don't want to compare races, and nationalities here, I respect all,
but wanted to show a very very common thought here, that the "Indians = cheap and low quality" especially in CG Industry and creativity, unless they prove the opposite. And so far No!,

I've seen genius Indian programmers and developers, maybe Technical engineers, but yet few or no CG artist (I mean artists not CG software users), I mean they don't standout in this field at all, it's just the opposite.




Listen, I'm here working as a CG trainer since 5 years, and worked during that with this industry in the market, and I've never seen or heard by an outstanding Indian CG artist, neither all my colleagues, (consider the huge popularity of them), so what do you call that?

I would like to change my view here, but only if somebody give me an opposite, or better (proved) view there, and I will pretty welcome that from anybody.



and when I hear (in this thread) that some huge CG copmany will establish its branche in India, how in the world you want me to expect outstanding creative production?!, (well I hope!),



and I think no one can blame "us" for this vision due to the above explaination above, sorry.

Cheers to all Indians.

'] My view is simple--> No race, religion, nationality culture should think that they have *GOD given right to be treated as royalty.
*I don't believe in God so my last point is kind of mute :scream:...but you understand what I mean :) .

I agree with you here, except I strongly belive in God.

greekdish
06-16-2006, 02:46 AM
Yes I'll have or at least should have since I thought a democratic state should also ensure basic rights. Freedom is fine as long as freedom is expressed without limiting the freedom or hurting other people or the general public. And I can critize someone when he is doing something which obviously hurts someone else or myself. But some countries have completely lost control over that part of their constitution since the people in charge are now too interwinded, too connected or even themself part of big business so they prefer to fill their own pocket with money and keep their mouth shut.


Yep you are right there is no such thing as Utopia as long as there is man.



Yes it should regulate me when I am obviously doing something which is bad for the general population, yes they should tell me, charge me and even thread me when I am doing something like that. Otherwise we are not far away from Karl Marx's image of total rulership of capital which I see more and more geting established in the world.

Listen...everyone has freedom here in the US. If you dont like something, LEAVE your job. What is so hard to understand about that?? Nobody is raping ANYONE. I own a business and I can NEVER get enough people to cover the shifts. People are LAZY. You all want to get paid $100,000 and work 20 hours a week, and not show up to work when you don't want to. Gone are the days of hard work. No company in the US is oppressing anyone's freedoms. Thats absurd. Only people who have NEVER worked in this country would say that. Its very easy for anyone to go file a complaint at the local Dept. of Labor, and they will have someone there that same day. This is all BS. Capitalism is capitalism. Deal with it. Otherwise, go to China. Go start your own business. But stop crying and whining about "rights". Again, you have a right to whine, but you DONT have a right to tell a business how to run itself, or where to run itself.

People who think its their right to tell a company what to do are communists....period. Go start your own business if you dont like it. Its that simple. Otherwise, anything else you say, you are wrong.

Outsourcing has been going on for decades. This isnt new. Get over yourselves, just because this happened to you, doesnt mean its wrong.

Jealousy rears its ugly head in here.

CupOWonton
06-16-2006, 03:41 AM
Listen...everyone has freedom here in the US. If you dont like something, LEAVE your job. What is so hard to understand about that?? Nobody is raping ANYONE. I own a business and I can NEVER get enough people to cover the shifts. People are LAZY. You all want to get paid $100,000 and work 20 hours a week, and not show up to work when you don't want to. Gone are the days of hard work. No company in the US is oppressing anyone's freedoms. Thats absurd. Only people who have NEVER worked in this country would say that. Its very easy for anyone to go file a complaint at the local Dept. of Labor, and they will have someone there that same day. This is all BS. Capitalism is capitalism. Deal with it. Otherwise, go to China. Go start your own business. But stop crying and whining about "rights". Again, you have a right to whine, but you DONT have a right to tell a business how to run itself, or where to run itself.

People who think its their right to tell a company what to do are communists....period. Go start your own business if you dont like it. Its that simple. Otherwise, anything else you say, you are wrong.

Outsourcing has been going on for decades. This isnt new. Get over yourselves, just because this happened to you, doesnt mean its wrong.

Jealousy rears its ugly head in here.

#1 - Communism at the core, isnt bad, people however, are corruptable, and in large scale communism, it just doesnt work.

#2 - Many people like their jobs before they get fired and replaced by outsourcing. They werent fired for any reason other than an exec wants more money. Its not like theyre hurting for money, they own million dollar cars, and several yatchs, beach houses, some private islands, etc, they just want MORE money.

#3 - The point of buisness shouldnt be to destroy people, but thats exactly what it has evolved into. We put standards and laws to regulate buisness already, are you saying thats communist too? To want to regulate things so not as many people are hurt?

#4 - Shame on you for trying to play the jeaousy card. People who lose their jobs to outsourcing arent jealous, theyre mad and usualy very depressed. Lots of times they arent going to see it coming. In this case, I sure as hell didnt. I'd hate to be someone who works for a large animation company to lose their job unexpectedly to outsourcing.
Buisnesses USE to have good retirement plans, now they just use and abuse people as quickly as possible and end up physicaly harming them by forcing everyone into deep bouts of stress that destroy them from the inside out.

Have you been jobless in america because of outsourcing? Have you had to wait months for a new job? Have you had to sell your posessions because of it? I get the feeling the answer is no.

Stahlberg
06-16-2006, 04:59 AM
Have you been jobless in america because of outsourcing? Have you had to wait months for a new job? Have you had to sell your posessions because of it? I get the feeling the answer is no.
And this happened to you? Sorry to hear that. What company was that?

.

jdsb
06-16-2006, 05:14 AM
Again I don't want to compare races, and nationalities here, I respect all,
but wanted to show a very very common thought here, that the "Indians = cheap and low quality" especially in CG Industry and creativity, unless they prove the opposite. And so far No!,

I've seen genius Indian programmers and developers, maybe Technical engineers, but yet few or no CG artist (I mean artists not CG software users), I mean they don't standout in this field at all, it's just the opposite.




Listen, I'm here working as a CG trainer since 5 years, and worked during that with this industry in the market, and I've never seen or heard by an outstanding Indian CG artist, neither all my colleagues, (consider the huge popularity of them), so what do you call that?

I would like to change my view here, but only if somebody give me an opposite, or better (proved) view there, and I will pretty welcome that from anybody.



and when I hear (in this thread) that some huge CG copmany will establish its branche in India, how in the world you want me to expect outstanding creative production?!, (well I hope!),



and I think no one can blame "us" for this vision due to the above explaination above, sorry.

Cheers to all Indians.

[/left]

I agree with you here, except I strongly belive in God.


your statements are thoughts about indian cg talent and ability are not only degrading and dissapointing but also very disrespectful. You very smartly stated your point ,disrespected and showed total disregard for any aspiriing cg artists from india viewing this thread. ..and signed off by cheering all the indians?....after all that you have said?


I AM AN INDIAN, settled here and thankfully above average in my cg skills and abilities , and i am sure there are a lot more artists from my country working here , settled and happy just like me...you generalize a country of 1 billion people, based on what you see in the gulf.How about we generailze you based on what we hear about the gulf everyday? how would that feel, have you ever thought about that??

looks like you are simply jealous, i am sorry to say this...

tjabba
06-16-2006, 05:17 AM
#1 - Communism at the core, isnt bad, people however, are corruptable
LOL Yeah the only problem with communism is the people.
Seriously, you unwittingly hit the nail on the head there, you took the words right out of the heads of communist leaders of all ages. That's why so many people have been jailed, tortured, banished and killed by communist regimes. The people must be saved from themselves, even if it kills them. :rolleyes:

jdsb
06-16-2006, 05:17 AM
btw,let me tell you that your very very common thought about indians being cheap and low quality is only either in your mind or in the gulf, THANK GOD
from all i have seen here and the people i have associated myself and my work with , think that indian people are in fact very smart and hard working, devoted and intelligent.They respect us for our moral and cultural values.And we reciprocate the same feeling by appreciating people for what they are, and not where they are from...

down2earth
06-16-2006, 05:31 AM
Listen...everyone has freedom here in the US. If you dont like something, LEAVE your job. What is so hard to understand about that?? Nobody is raping ANYONE. I own a business and I can NEVER get enough people to cover the shifts. People are LAZY. You all want to get paid $100,000 and work 20 hours a week, and not show up to work when you don't want to. Gone are the days of hard work. No company in the US is oppressing anyone's freedoms. Thats absurd. Only people who have NEVER worked in this country would say that. Its very easy for anyone to go file a complaint at the local Dept. of Labor, and they will have someone there that same day. This is all BS. Capitalism is capitalism. Deal with it. Otherwise, go to China. Go start your own business. But stop crying and whining about "rights". Again, you have a right to whine, but you DONT have a right to tell a business how to run itself, or where to run itself.

People who think its their right to tell a company what to do are communists....period. Go start your own business if you dont like it. Its that simple. Otherwise, anything else you say, you are wrong.

Outsourcing has been going on for decades. This isnt new. Get over yourselves, just because this happened to you, doesnt mean its wrong.

Jealousy rears its ugly head in here.





I appreciate your views.. you have hit the nail on the head. Some other people have tried it earlier but i guess most of the people here complaining don't get it coz they are so blinded by their arrogance and ignorance and of course incompetence !!!

People who have always had the spoon held in their mouth can't imagine that one day everybody has to eat with their own hands. I guess they are the Mama's Boys of the CG industry..

Cheers

Ahmattu
06-16-2006, 05:48 AM
you generalize a country of 1 billion people, based on what you see in the gulf. How about we generailze you based on what we hear about the gulf everyday? how would that feel, have you ever thought about that??


you got me totally wrong, I mentioned in a previous post, and its clear here in this post that I'm talking about what I see and what I hear here in this region, and I did NOT generalize at all!


It's like you tell me what you guys there say about gulf people as instance.
(even though I mentioned that I'm not from that region I work there since 5 years).


looks like you are simply jealous, i am sorry to say this...


I don't see anything to feel jealous of !!

Ahmattu
06-16-2006, 06:02 AM
btw,let me tell you that your very very common thought about indians being cheap and low quality is only either in your mind or in the gulf, THANK GOD
from all i have seen here and the people i have associated myself and my work with , think that indian people are in fact very smart and hard working, devoted and intelligent.They respect us for our moral and cultural values.And we reciprocate the same feeling by appreciating people for what they are, and not where they are from...

its not only in my mind, yes its as you said in the gulf, thank god.

btw, I have some great Indian colleagues here, and when I meet with people, I never judge them according to where is he from, and I do repect people.

albedo4800hp
06-16-2006, 07:58 AM
People who think its their right to tell a company what to do are communists....period. Go start your own business if you dont like it. Its that simple. Otherwise, anything else you say, you are wrong.

Outsourcing has been going on for decades. This isnt new. Get over yourselves, just because this happened to you, doesnt mean its wrong.

Jealousy rears its ugly head in here.

I am starting to get fed up by that ignorant and blind US view of the world. Capitalism and globalization is killing our planet look arroud it is pretty obvious even a blind man can see that. But okay tell me how dry, how hot, how many species must die out, how many people living in extreme conditions, how many hurricans, how many bad harvests, how many world-wide emmigrants, how many terrorists fighting against a decandent western world, how high must the sea level rise, how many floods do you need, how many wars because of resources must be fought, how many forest must be deforest, how many natural reservoirs must have to be plundered, how many percentage must the few rich people of global income own, how many people must die due to changes in global climate before you finally understand?

nitindesign
06-16-2006, 09:50 AM
Ok nitin, thanks for ur post.

I think you don't know the situation here, and I belive that the west has ignorance about the third world much more than the third world ignorance about the west.

I have spent my younger years in a third world country. Let me tell you that ignorant people are found all over the world and not only in the west.

first of, I am not a local person here, (I'm not from gulf) but I'm living there since 5 years, so it's not my government,

Which country is that? Your country better excel at CG art as you have set such high standards for Indian artists :)



Indians are the huge bulk, and this is mostly the case in all the gulf region.
you might ask why there are too many Indians there??, and why we are there ("we" = Arabs from outside the gulf <Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt...>)?? The answer will make things very complicated and it will take me through lots of details that are totally off topic.


You are starting to sound like an Arab nationalist.


2 - "most" the gulf locals don't like to educate, they like enjoying luxury stuff, and they can do that, by using money for contraction investment, then invite the foreign skills and experiences, and let them run business in this sensitive and open country in the region, and the locals get fees for the facilities,

How is that Indians fault?


3 - they used Indian labors in the beginning to build their facilities, cuz who can do this work?, Locals > impossible, other Arab countries like "us" refuse to do this kind of work in other countries.


Then appreciate what the poor Indians from India are doing for cheap. I have seen enough German documentaries and heard from lot of people how Indian labourers get treated in the Gulf states. Do you think anyone likes working for cheap? Have you thought that maybe they have no choice?


4 - Indians ran to these countries and convince the locals that they have the technologies and qualities (they do have the first one), of course "we" don't have the first one (because of political issues and governments and language) but "we" sure have the second one,

Again I fail to see how that is fault of the Indians?


Again I don't want to compare races, and nationalities here, I respect all, but wanted to show a very very common thought here, that the "Indians = cheap and low quality" especially in CG Industry and creativity, unless they prove the opposite. And so far No!,


Again no Indian or for that matter any nationality has to prove anything to anyone. I am not blind to the fact that a sizeable chunk of Indian CG artists are not upto scratch but that is to be expected as CG is a new field for Indians. In time things will improve and if they don't improve it won't be end of the world.

I've seen genius Indian programmers and developers, maybe Technical engineers, but yet few or no CG artist (I mean artists not CG software users), I mean they don't standout in this field at all, it's just the opposite.

Could be something to do with the part of the world you live in? In the west I see plenty of extremelly clever Indian scientists, doctors, engineers and designers.



Listen, I'm here working as a CG trainer since 5 years, and worked during that with this industry in the market, and I've never seen or heard by an outstanding Indian CG artist, neither all my colleagues, (consider the huge popularity of them), so what do you call that?

I call that hatred of Indians? :) Why should you be specifically looking for artists background?


I would like to change my view here, but only if somebody give me an opposite, or better (proved) view there, and I will pretty welcome that from anybody.

Well I am of Indian roots. I hope my work does not offend you too much.




and when I hear (in this thread) that some huge CG copmany will establish its branche in India, how in the world you want me to expect outstanding creative production?!, (well I hope!),


Let the company worry about that.


and I think no one can blame "us" for this vision due to the above explaination above, sorry.Cheers to all Indians.


I still blame you for being ignorant and lumping all Indians into one boat.



I agree with you here, except I strongly belive in God.

Could that be part of your problem? :)





I am starting to get fed up by that ignorant and blind US view of the world. Capitalism and globalization is killing our planet look arroud it is pretty obvious even a blind man can see that. But okay tell me how dry, how hot, how many species must die out, how many people living in extreme conditions, how many hurricans, how many bad harvests, how many world-wide emmigrants, how many terrorists fighting against a decandent western world, how high must the sea level rise, how many floods do you need, how many wars because of resources must be fought, how many forest must be deforest, how many natural reservoirs must have to be plundered, how many percentage must the few rich people of global income own, how many people must die due to changes in global climate before you finally understand?

I am still waiting for your solution :) Capitalism might not be perfect but it's the only system that runs parallel to human way of thinking. What should replace capitalism? Please enlighten me...I am really curious.

Ahmattu
06-16-2006, 12:09 PM
']
How is that Indians fault?


I didn't say anything about Indians fault!, I think its pretty clear (point 2) that its the gulf locals fault, to let this much of indians, until their country becomes full of indians, much much more than locals.


']

Again I fail to see how that is fault of the Indians?



again, I didn't say anything about Indians fault!

']
Again no Indian or for that matter any nationality has to prove anything to anyone. I am not blind to the fact that a sizeable chunk of Indian CG artists are not upto scratch but that is to be expected as CG is a new field for Indians. In time things will improve and if they don't improve it won't be end of the world.


I hope things will improve.





']
Could be something to do with the part of the world you live in? In the west I see plenty of extremelly clever Indian scientists, doctors, engineers and designers.


yes it could be something to do with the part of the world I live in, but I don't think "there is no smoke without fire".





']
I call that hatred of Indians? :) Why should you be specifically looking for artists background?


we are talking about cg art after all, and there is no hatred to anybody.

']
Well I am of Indian roots. I hope my work does not offend you too much.


not at all.



']
Let the company worry about that.


I don't think that I can prevent the company from doing anything, and I don't want to stop anything I am just watching, and of course I will let them worry about that, cuz I am not worried in the first place!


']
I still blame you for being ignorant and lumping all Indians into one boat.


you come here, and see and hear, then you can decide to blame me or not.










']
Could that be part of your problem? :)



I don't have problem at all.

jdsb
06-16-2006, 01:14 PM
I am starting to get fed up by that ignorant and blind US view of the world. Capitalism and globalization is killing our planet look arroud it is pretty obvious even a blind man can see that. But okay tell me how dry, how hot, how many species must die out, how many people living in extreme conditions, how many hurricans, how many bad harvests, how many world-wide emmigrants, how many terrorists fighting against a decandent western world, how high must the sea level rise, how many floods do you need, how many wars because of resources must be fought, how many forest must be deforest, how many natural reservoirs must have to be plundered, how many percentage must the few rich people of global income own, how many people must die due to changes in global climate before you finally understand?

LOL, let me ask you this, HOW do you associate globalization and capitalism to natural disasters and extreme conditions....HOW:banghead:

gauravnawani
06-16-2006, 01:16 PM
I think you don't know the situation here, and I belive that the west has ignorance about the third world much more than the third world ignorance about the west. Dont miss the Arabs of which you are profound example.

first of, I am not a local person here, (I'm not from gulf) but I'm living there since 5 years, so it's not my government, and this country especially contains a lot of different nationalities, and the Indians are the huge bulk, and this is mostly the case in all the gulf region. Nice!! escape route ready before hand.

you might ask why there are too many Indians there??, and why we are there ("we" = Arabs from outside the gulf <Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt...>)??
The answer will make things very complicated and it will take me through lots of details that are totally off topic.
Why would we be interested is that related to CG??



But briefly since we are talking about Indians after all:







the gulf region has oil then (oil = money) so the gulf has money.
"most" the gulf locals don't like to educate, they like enjoying luxury stuff, and they can do that, by using money for contraction investment, then invite the foreign skills and experiences, and let them run business in this sensitive and open country in the region, and the locals get fees for the facilities,
they used Indian labors in the beginning to build their facilities, cuz who can do this work?, Locals > impossible, other Arab countries like "us" refuse to do this kind of work in other countries.
Indians ran to these countries and convince the locals that they have the technologies and qualities (they do have the first one), of course "we" don't have the first one (because of political issues and governments and language) but "we" sure have the second one,
Does having the oil burns in you the feeling of exclusive rights to Quality??






Again I don't want to compare races, and nationalities here, I respect all,
but wanted to show a very very common thought here, that the "Indians = cheap and low quality" especially in CG Industry and creativity, unless they prove the opposite. And so far No!,

Incredible conclusions, I wonder if a poor uneducated labourer is going to create Arab's next block buster Animated movie. Oh do you have animated movies there?

I've seen genius Indian programmers and developers, maybe Technical engineers, but yet few or no CG artist (I mean artists not CG software users), I mean they don't standout in this field at all, it's just the opposite.
Oh now I get it unless your butt is kicked you don't realise that other is good.



Listen, I'm here working as a CG trainer since 5 years, and worked during that with this industry in the market, and I've never seen or heard by an outstanding Indian CG artist, neither all my colleagues, (consider the huge popularity of them), so what do you call that?

Care to elaborate _outstanding_ and how is it to be defined vis vis an Arab artwork.
If you saw any of the films in the link below tell me they were worst standing (of course not everything is done by Indians, but I have a feeling you will get the Idea)
http://www.rhythm.com/india/films.html

I would like to change my view here, but only if somebody give me an opposite, or better (proved) view there, and I will pretty welcome that from anybody. See above and this is just one thing. Why would dreamworks come to India could just be another. For all I can see if they produce quality work but they want it be done it cheapy (your pet word isin't it) do they have to go to a place thats only Cheap??. Indians are working in Pixar, Dreamworks. Wait do _I_ have to first give you links for that too?? I mean you seem to base your conclusions despite that.

BTW you are arguing with Nitin have you for once looked at his works?? Ok he is not Indian anymore unless he holds Indian passport. But if he does anything worthy in _your eyes_ is it because he is not Indian anymore or is it that he is presuamabably, or for the sake of theory is in an environment that has capacity to supports his talents.


and when I hear (in this thread) that some huge CG copmany will establish its branche in India, how in the world you want me to expect outstanding creative production?!, (well I hope!), See following paragraphs.


and I think no one can blame "us" for this vision due to the above explaination above, sorry. Similarly you gave us the vision of Arabs... [_Thinking caps on_] Nah... you don't look like a genuine Arab.


Cheers to you my friend.

I agree with you here, except I strongly belive in God. So that means after all you have guts to appologize for all wrong that you wrote?

Indian CG industry is in pretty much nascent stage, but just for the sake of argument consider this, India in a span of under a decade have been able to attract the people who them selves are known for quality does it implies that Indians will produce _cheap_ (the fabled word isin't it) stuff for quality companies, then that same ugly stuff will be thursted on viewers who them selve like nothing but "the best". I dont think Dreamworks will be that stupid or their busisness manager will be that amature, but hey you are more intelligent than them right??

I enjoy this "suprise act" eveytime India does some thing west don't expect or is it they dont want to expect as it hurts their beleif which are still being dragged as it is, in their primitive form directly from the 17th century.

We the 'third world nation', the 'nation of beggars with dust bowls', we the nation where people still die with malnutrition, somehow developed satellite tech, the missile tech, nuclear tech and with some of it being best in its class and all that _indeginiously_ and some of it probably in far less the amount NASA spent on just one 'Mars rover' project. Shh.. that definately dosen't tell why Indians are sooo not creative or intelligent or hard working.

Oh Indians are so dumb... ????

PS: FYI still most Indians do not even have a computer, forget about being able to afford luxirious pricing of CG packages.

Mindful One
06-16-2006, 01:51 PM
I think we have gotton waaaay off topic with this thread. People are getting a tad personal and are not being so nice to each other.

We all want to do cg and get paid for it, period. If there are no jobs left then we will have something to bitch about.

I think we need to stop pointing the almighty finger. We have to realize that the things we do not always like are the very things that can make it better for all in the future. Whenever there is a pendulum swinging it will always swing back to where it was before.

Yes people get upset when they think the very thing they love to do, and get paid to do, will be gone. We all don't want to accept less pay either. To me it is harder "to make a living" compared to my parent's generation. I have to look at it as a different world that economically evolves faster than people can predict. We will have to make certain sacrafices to get along with this changing environment.

It is different but the strong will prevail.

I also heard that with all the people coming out of schools, only a fraction of them are ready for the "big time".

Peace,
Steve :shrug:

andy_maxman
06-16-2006, 01:53 PM
whats on fellas...?

you folks just got someones fingers itchy...
tick..tick...tick...tic...

: )

JMcWilliams
06-16-2006, 02:04 PM
I also heard that with all the people coming out of schools, only a fraction of them are ready for the "big time".

EDIT: Ooops. I read that incorrectly and posted a response that did not make much sense.
:)

CupOWonton
06-16-2006, 02:11 PM
PS: FYI still most Indians do not even have a computer, forget about being able to afford luxirious pricing of CG packages.
So youre saying its ok for people in india and china to use pirated software wile everyone else who tries to start a professional life as a 3d animator has to pay those 'luxurious' prices?
I worked my butt off for 2 years just to save money to buy 3dsmax 8, and thats all I had money for.

andy_maxman
06-16-2006, 02:45 PM
So youre saying its ok for people in india and china to use pirated software wile everyone else who tries to start a professional life as a 3d animator has to pay those 'luxurious' prices?


gawd! heights of inference...

Flog
06-16-2006, 04:47 PM
CupofWonton and whoever is in that position,

I understand that you may have lost your job and my sympathies are with you. I apologize if I came off strong earlier.

Outsourcing in some areas is bad and has it's good. There is a balance to it. In the bad areas people are going to hurt, in the good areas people are going to prosper.

I do think it evil for execs to do everything to make more money and not care about others well being. It's disgusting to see an exec not happy with 2 million dollars a year, he needs to cut local jobs so he can make 3 million that year. That is digusting. No regard for the humans they put out of work to make themselves richer. Does any human need more than 1 million a year to live? Yet the want more. Greed is disgusting. These ones that do this are disgusting and gross monsters.

on the flipside however

There are some businesses who would not have been able to survive without outsourcing. Many small and mid sized businesses would have had to shutdown completely putting way more people out of work. The entire business worth of people. Many of whom started thriving and hiring even more local people.

Then you have other's who would have never had a job in the CG field simply because they were born in a 3rd world country but now get to build a new industry. This is giving others the opportunity to work in the field and grow.

I believe soon India will grow their animation field, as they become better, more streamlined they will demand higher pay, by that time the savings a company has will be lost and so they will no longer be able to outsource to India so they leave. What they leave behind is now a self substaining industry of skilled workers making their own products (games, commercials, movies) That is what is happening in Korea as we speak. For many years Korea has been used by Japan to outsource anime, now Korea is starting to put out it's own set of animation and they are beginning to grow in terms of pay.

Now what do we do in the meantime for employment......

Well sometimes we may have to move to where employment is. Currently in my town there are around 50 game companies (Stahlberg, you lived in Austin once, does that sound about right) hiring. I'm sure there are several other game companies as well outside your home area. They are still hiring if you look around. I think there is a job section as we speak here on CGtalk. I don't mean to minimize the problem but there are jobs still out there and I wish you the best in your search.

Unfortunatley another thing that may pop up, is that we dont' get to work in the industry we want. Sometimes we have to do jobs we don't like to make a living. We may have to go to another industry.

But if me must stay in our industry, the one we love and things are tough, well we need to McGuyver it. Make use with whats there. He could turn a sock, bubble gum and a peice of foil into a bomb. In other words you ingenuity to make a living. Here is one suggestion. FIND A MARKET, FIND YOUR MEAT AND POTATOES JOB.

For example, we all seem to have a disdain for POSER. Yet did you know the POSER market is HUGE!! DAZ3D, RENDEROSITY, 3D COMMUNE, TURBOSQUID, CONTENT PARADISE all sell Poser products, many people are making a living creating them and selling them. There is a way to make money right there. Use your copy of max and create models you think would sell on those websites. There is no startup involved, you just have to make it and put it on their sight to sell. Some folks make a living, others earn extra cash for fun. This could be something to look into, a way to make money doing what you love.

What about Independant film making? The market is growing especially with portable entertainment (POD Casting) It's a growing market and would be a good time to get into it.
(Terrence is an example of someone who made this happen www.studioartfx.com (http://www.studioartfx.com/))

What about local architects and manufactoring places? Are their draftsmen in your area? Why not offer previz services? Just knock on their door with examples and say would they like to have this done? I have a friend who was an engineer, he was always looking for pre viz work. Look for engineers and consultants they may need previz work. Heck check with your local interior decorators and builders.

What about local businesses you see advertising on local television? Why not approach them and tell them all the neat stuff you can do with CG and if they would like an animated mascot on their commercials.

You get enough of these jobs and you could then outsource them, take on 20 jobs and be manager over all of them.

The thing is you don't have to rely on a studio, game company or corporation to supply you a job. You can use your creativity to make jobs for yourself. I hope this helps and gives you a glimmer of hope.

I understand the whole outsource thing. I've been on both ends of outsourcing. I've lost a job and gained a job both from outsourcing. So I think I can objectively see both sides.

CupOWonton
06-16-2006, 06:15 PM
You seemed to have jumped strait from one job to the next, so no, I dont think so.

Flog
06-16-2006, 06:36 PM
Your right, it didn't effect me as much because I did jump ship, so I cannot fully understand what you are going through.

I do know depression sets in at times and we do not want to do anything but loathe ourselves. Many a friend of mine had that happen to them. Ultimately I will tell you, you will survive, whether it is in or out of your industry.

But I do offer suggestions I think you should look into

If you have a few models that you don't need, why not start selling them off of renderosity. You could be selling them TODAY!! :)

Why not start going business to business asking if they need previz. Check out the phonebook for draftsment, architects, builders.

Watch TV and pay note to local advertisers. Then go knock at their door and tell them what you can do for their business.

You have the tools, and hopefully the skill. I say go for it. Be aggressive.

That part you can take from those aggressive companies. I really wish you the best and all the best, whether here or there.

I think everyone should be happy and be able to find something they love doing. I wish everyone the best of opportunities and keep working.

Extend yourself and be creative.

greekdish
06-16-2006, 06:47 PM
I am starting to get fed up by that ignorant and blind US view of the world. Capitalism and globalization is killing our planet look arroud it is pretty obvious even a blind man can see that. But okay tell me how dry, how hot, how many species must die out, how many people living in extreme conditions, how many hurricans, how many bad harvests, how many world-wide emmigrants, how many terrorists fighting against a decandent western world, how high must the sea level rise, how many floods do you need, how many wars because of resources must be fought, how many forest must be deforest, how many natural reservoirs must have to be plundered, how many percentage must the few rich people of global income own, how many people must die due to changes in global climate before you finally understand?

And Im getting tired of people generalizing the US as one united view on the world. Everyone here in the US has their own opinion. Don't be another fool and judge the entire US by what I say, nor what any other one person says. I'm not the one judging entire countries and ethnicities here like you are.

Second of all...how dare you blame the US for all of the worlds problems?? Talk about a myopic view. Dont blame deforestation in the Amazon on the US. We couldnt stop that if we tried. Dont blame flooding and hurricanes on anyone. WTF does natural disasters have ANYTHING to do with this conversation?? What does global climate have anything to do with this?? Really, WTF are you talking about??? Stick to the issue.

Capitalism isnt destroying anything. Some of you people amaze me. Some of you need to try the other shoe on the foot. I would love for you all to try and run your own business. You all think its easy, and the owners and executives just collect millions of dollars for doing nothing. Talk about ignorance. I could care less how many species die out because the bottom line is....humans are more important. Period. If you expect us to all of a sudden kill off a couple of billion people in this world to keep some animals from going extinct, you are SOL.

It also sounds like you support terrorism simply because you feel Western civilization is decadent. You know what, you can kiss my arse. I wonder how you would feel if a terrorist blew himself up on you, because you owning a computer is Western ideals as well. Then you can come crying to the government wondering why they didnt prevent it. When will the hypocrisy ever end?

Everyone wants the government to feed and clothe them, but no one wants a corporate business that pays taxes to bankroll the government. You cant have a government taking care of you if they dont have any businesses to give them income. Capitalism is whats keeping this world fed and sustained. Without capitalism, there are no technological breakthroughs to find new inventions and irrigation techniques and desalinization techniques, and new fuel resources. The poverty and deforestation are symptoms of having NO capitalism.

OK...enough about being off topic. back to the point.

For those of you who expect to last 50 years in a CG Studio...get over it. I've read from HERE in these forums that most people dont last more than a year or two at any one studio. Studio's hire talent depending on the projects they have. So if a studio moves out of this country, does it matter?? Look, Im sorry to hear anyone had to sell possesions to stay afloat, but you arent the first or only person to do so. Have I waited months before finding a new job?? Yes. Thats when I went into business for myself. For anyone else...there are plenty of other jobs out there. Im tired of hearing excuses when people say they cant find work. Thats BS. There is PLENTY of work out there...its just that no one wants to do it. No one wants to work in a restaurant, no one wants to sweep floors at Walmart, no one wants to wash cars or dishes or be a waiter. Thats not my fault. If you'd rather pawn off your possessions instead of working any means necessary, then I have no sympathy for you. There is always a way...it doesnt have to always be in CG. Like I said earlier in this thread...I used to work in the graphics industry, and now I own a restaurant. My waiters and waitresses make more than me over the course of a week...but yes, they work their tails off. If people only want to work in an air conditioned cubicle, well then, you are on your own.

Capitalism makes the world go round....period. You find the best talent for your company....you choose who you want working for you, and how much to pay them, and you reap the benefits and profits. Thats the beauty of it. Regardless of what people think, it is greed that makes us humans work harder and strive to reach our goals. We want to study more to make more. We want to practice more in 3D, so we can earn more. Thats why communism fails....because no one will work hard for the same money as someone else. Communism only works with a gun pointed to someone's head. Capitalism works with incentives....the attainable goal of fortune and fame. Mankind is like this. Sorry. Its the truth. We all work harder if we can get more money.

To those of you in India...congratulations!! You are getting an excellent company in your backyard. I look forward to seeing your work in the future.

CupOWonton
06-16-2006, 07:34 PM
Your right, it didn't effect me as much because I did jump ship, so I cannot fully understand what you are going through.

I do know depression sets in at times and we do not want to do anything but loathe ourselves. Many a friend of mine had that happen to them. Ultimately I will tell you, you will survive, whether it is in or out of your industry.

But I do offer suggestions I think you should look into

If you have a few models that you don't need, why not start selling them off of renderosity. You could be selling them TODAY!! :)

Why not start going business to business asking if they need previz. Check out the phonebook for draftsment, architects, builders.

Watch TV and pay note to local advertisers. Then go knock at their door and tell them what you can do for their business.

You have the tools, and hopefully the skill. I say go for it. Be aggressive.

That part you can take from those aggressive companies. I really wish you the best and all the best, whether here or there.

I think everyone should be happy and be able to find something they love doing. I wish everyone the best of opportunities and keep working.

Extend yourself and be creative.

- I notice people finaly realise I'm speaking from very current experience. Bout time.

-Pondered the model selling, unfortunately Ive noticed that model sales arent making people JACK in terms of livable income. Also, because of various pirate sites, they not only distribute renderers like Vray and Maxwell, but they distribute full modle CD's and im fairly sertain thats where most of the ArchVis models Ive seen on DeviantArt have come from. People who dont know jack about 3d, yet they somehow have these detailed models in their horribly textured, modeled, and lit rooms.

-Buisnesses around here arent hiring my type. I was never good with character modeling or animation, thats why I got into arch vis. I can see something and model it. I take base measurments from magazines with a photo of the object, and in about half to a full hour i'll have a nice chair or leather couch, etc. All that work is outsourced now. Ive found maybe 1 place thats hiring who needs an in house arch-vis/arch animator, but they have yet to respond to me or my 'agent'. And theres 1 actual game company here, which is insane because this is a MASSIVE gamer city, and to my knowledge they arent hiring any set/scene/object modelers.

Essentialy Ive been going Bat SHHH Loco for a wile now. I liked my job a lot. I trained people to model, texture, and render, and I was a newbie. Nice people.

Ahmattu
06-16-2006, 07:41 PM
Dont miss the Arabs of which you are profound example.
Nice!! escape route ready before hand.

Why would we be interested is that related to CG??
[/left]
.

I said that will be out of topic, if you understand english!


[/list]Does having the oil burns in you the feeling of exclusive rights to Quality??


we don't have oil as I mentioned, I also work here as a non local, please try to understand before you reply.

I don't have this feeling, I'm just telling something very well known here.

PS you don't want it to burn here, if it the oil burns here most of the dead people will Indians.


Incredible conclusions, I wonder if a poor uneducated labourer is going to create Arab's next block buster Animated movie. Oh do you have animated movies there?


our countries are not like yours, we have a lot of political problems and government and language, which makes things very difficult to us to keep up with the technologies out there in the rest of the world, India doent have these problems, so its not fare to compare our countries with yours due to that.



Oh now I get it unless your butt is kicked you don't realise that other is good.


I don't want to answer this cuz this will make you sad, and will take my words down to your words level, I can see that you become sacrastic, but still you can be more polite here and be more civilized, cuz I'm trying to have a better idea about indians, and you don't help this at all





[left]Similarly you gave us the vision of Arabs... [_Thinking caps on_] Nah... you don't look like a genuine Arab.



I think all your fellows answers were much better than yours, and they for sure were much more smart, and I don't care how you look like (genius or stupid), I have a very good Idea about Indians, and I have expierienced that.

Flog
06-16-2006, 09:08 PM
Pondered the model selling, unfortunately Ive noticed that model sales arent making people JACK in terms of livable income. Also, because of various pirate sites, they not only distribute renderers like Vray and Maxwell, but they distribute full modle CD's and im fairly sertain thats where most of the ArchVis models Ive seen on DeviantArt have come from. People who dont know jack about 3d, yet they somehow have these detailed models in their horribly textured, modeled, and lit rooms.



You have to play the market. The Poser market is your biggest market. Model in bulk. If you can model as fast as you say you can I think you could model 20-30 props a week. Poser folks love these things, and buy them up like candy. You do have to sell them as royalty free type models, so hence you'll see the retard renders.

I wouldn't follow suite on Turbosquid though. I've seen a ton of great models on Turbosquid and I can almost guarantee you they don't sell a thing.

I've seen character models on their being sold for 200-400 dollars. Which to me, I don't know who would buy it when they could fork down 299 for Poser and get 100s of models. So you have to play smart and in the right market. Bulk sales plus low price is your winner in that market.

That's the market I suggest for you. Maybe you won't make a living but you'll have slightly more cash than you do now. Something to tide over. :)

I hope this advice helps. I was in marketting for a several years and well I had a knack for it. :) Radio sales and promotions to ma and pa local yocal places. In a town of 26,000 the radio station made 150,000 dollars a month. Outside of expenses they still had 75,000 to bank. That is a small town. Those same ma and pa folks paid good money.

Don't forget to play on people's ignorance, alot of businesses don't know about 3d, or anything, they just want to see a finished product, they don't know about outsourcing little jobs like that, nor have the time to even think of going that route. They want to just hire someone as quick as possible or sometimes they never knew they needed you until you convince them they do. I'm thinking doing 3d but not directly for the industry.

Here is my ultimate idea of outsourcing, they are like insurance companies. A necessary evil, but sometimes you can bank on that evil (when they have to pay up) and sometimes that evil banks on you (not paying)

I wish you and all your pals the best bro, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. :(

gauravnawani
06-16-2006, 11:47 PM
I said that will be out of topic, if you understand english!

I think all your fellows answers were much better than yours, and they for sure were much more smart, and I don't care how you look like (genius or stupid), I have a very good Idea about Indians, and I have expierienced that.

Of course I never understood _your_ English, yeah others didn't hit back on your incoherent and downright offending thoughts so they were nice, cool!!.

gauravnawani
06-17-2006, 12:10 AM
So youre saying its ok for people in india and china to use pirated software wile everyone else who tries to start a professional life as a 3d animator has to pay those 'luxurious' prices?
I worked my butt off for 2 years just to save money to buy 3dsmax 8, and thats all I had money for.

You took my post out of context. Not having access to the equipment is a big hindrance in our country. Don't know how many talent will be lost of that. It is big reason that you don't see much Indians on the forums like this, and this was also the reason people like the poster I replied to conjure up wayward belief's.

PS: I myself use OSS for the same reason.

jdsb
06-17-2006, 01:55 AM
I don't want to answer this cuz this will make you sad, and will take my words down to your words level, I can see that you become sacrastic, but still you can be more polite here and be more civilized, cuz I'm trying to have a better idea about indians, and you don't help this at all


[/left]

I think all your fellows answers were much better than yours, and they for sure were much more smart, and I don't care how you look like (genius or stupid), I have a very good Idea about Indians, and I have expierienced that.


why are you comparing one indians answer to another one? why are you comparing indian people and trying to form opinions ? why are you trying to state your opinions about indian people ...this thread is about dreamworks going to india dude.what does it have to do with you working in the gulf? i can still agree that it has something to do with outsourcing, but you coming in here and giving you commentary, is in one word....UNNECESSARY.. sorry if i come off a little bit offended, after all you are talking about my home country, even though i am a proud canadian now...

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 02:08 AM
Of course I never understood _your_ English, yeah others didn't hit back on your incoherent and downright offending thoughts so they were nice, cool!!.

its good that you admit, you just consider that "hit back", you considered that a "war"!?, you should consider that maybe correcting your view into the others eyes, you could try giving me some examples to convince me (you did some), let me give you an example
(I expect to hear from the west or even from you guys a very bad ideas about Arabs or muslims, (like ignorance or terorrism, etc...) so what can I answer? and I know they know us through ads and their governments, so I can't "hit back" by saying "look at you guys" and such things, instead I will tell them good points in us that they don't know, and it will still be difficult to me to keep cool and nice, but I can manage.)

but intead you took the case personaly with me, and you started your "hit back" and that was your biggest mistake,

I didn't want to "hit back" according to my education and manners, I know it's difficult to be cool and nice, but try you can make it, people will respect you more, and this is for sure a part of civilization, :)

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 02:13 AM
why are you comparing one indians answer to another one? why are you comparing indian people and trying to form opinions ? why are you trying to state your opinions about indian people ...this thread is about dreamworks going to india dude.what does it have to do with you working in the gulf? i can still agree that it has something to do with outsourcing, but you coming in here and giving you commentary, is in one word....UNNECESSARY.. sorry if i come off a little bit offended, after all you are talking about my home country, even though i am a proud canadian now...

well sorry, I was trying to know more about you guys and "try" to correct my opinion about you after I heard the news about Dreamworks,

but if it is UNNECESSARY, why I have a lot of replies,

and about the little bit offending, no probs I"ll take that, I can understand your situation, enjoy your canadianity :)

jdsb
06-17-2006, 02:24 AM
you have a lot of replies because it is unnecessary and people are trying so hard to explain you that mate.Your opinion is yours man, nobody reserves the right to change it for you ...just like you dont reserve a right to state your opinion in a generalized fashion that may offend somebody else...this is a cg forum for god sakes..., its becomes offensive...,about my situation...its not a situation, its my choice...i have a well established family back in india and in america and the uk as well.:)

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 06:27 AM
you have a lot of replies because it is unnecessary and people are trying so hard to explain you that mate.Your opinion is yours man, nobody reserves the right to change it for you ...just like you dont reserve a right to state your opinion in a generalized fashion that may offend somebody else...this is a cg forum for god sakes..., its becomes offensive...,about my situation...its not a situation, its my choice...i have a well established family back in india and in america and the uk as well.:)

but again as I told you all, this is not only my opinion, its very common here, and I told you the others opinion in a very embellished way, now I think you have a very good idea about whats going on here about your people...and I think for you especially (Indians) it becomes very necessary since you care about your people, and you don't know their situation in this part of the world,

cheers to you and your family

Stahlberg
06-17-2006, 06:49 AM
Ahmattu, what are you trying to achieve? You are off-topic, and I don't even really understand what is the point you are trying to make? That indians are mistreated where you live? That there is prejudice there? Or that the indians are taking jobs away from locals? What?

And why do you act surprised when indians reply negatively to your post? You are not saying anything nice and positive about them after all. Try to put yourself in their place.

Why don't you just say "sorry if I bothered anyone" and stop posting about this?

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 07:00 AM
Ahmattu, what are you trying to achieve? You are off-topic, and I don't even really understand what is the point you are trying to make? That indians are mistreated where you live? That there is prejudice there? Or that the indians are taking jobs away from locals? What?

And why do you act surprised when indians reply negatively to your post? You are not saying anything nice and positive about them after all. Try to put yourself in their place.

Why don't you just say "sorry if I bothered anyone" and stop posting about this?

I said sorry, even some have answered harshly to me, and my point was "knowing the reason behind the bad view about Indians",

I cleared that its not only me its very common here, and I didn't want to turn it into personal issue.

and yes it was off-topic, and yes sorry if I bothered anyone including you.

cheers to all, :thumbsup:

PS I hope my Avatar will not be a sign of Anti-Indians later on.

isoparmB
06-17-2006, 07:47 AM
I hope Dreamworks India succeeds. :] Every country needs a break, irregardless of what people from other countries think of them. I believe India is capable of creating amazing stuff. The country's produced a lot of frickin' nuclear physicists for crying out loud. :] A race like that has got to have something special about it.

gauravnawani
06-17-2006, 07:58 AM
I didn't want to "hit back" according to my education and manners, I know it's difficult to be cool and nice, but try you can make it, people will respect you more, and this is for sure a part of civilization,
Education and manners.... and civilization... perfect. You are implying the same thing you did earlier.
There you go ... I dont have anymore words for your complex.

vicky_1
06-17-2006, 07:58 AM
Thank you, isoparmB! Thats a nice thing to say.

Apology accepted, Ahmattu. I'll try not to 'attack ur avatar! Hah! Thats wonderful that u should use avatar! Last i remember, its an indian word... so is Maya!

now, where were we?

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 08:14 AM
Thats wonderful that u should use avatar! Last i remember, its an indian word... so is Maya!
now, where were we?

here are some new inforamtion, I didn't know that!, so what Maya means?

Stahlberg
06-17-2006, 08:31 AM
Illusion, right?

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 08:32 AM
I hope Dreamworks India succeeds. :] Every country needs a break, irregardless of what people from other countries think of them. I believe India is capable of creating amazing stuff. The country's produced a lot of frickin' nuclear physicists for crying out loud. :] A race like that has got to have something special about it.

I hope that too, but I hope your not trying to make me look bad, while you are good. :wise:

nitindesign
06-17-2006, 09:39 AM
I will stay out of the other discussion as I said what I had to say.

Regarding the name "Maya" as used by Alias (I mean Autodesk :twisted: arggghhhh!).

Maya in Hinduism, term used in the Vedas to mean magic or supernatural power. Maya signifies the world as a cosmic illusion and also the power that creates the world.
-The power of a god or demon to transform a concept into an element of the sensible world.
-The transitory, manifold appearance of the sensible world, which obscures the undifferentiated spiritual reality from which it originates; the illusory appearance of the sensible world.

For me the software Maya is the one and only true God. I am a 100% believer in power of Maya software :thumbsup:

vicky_1
06-17-2006, 10:14 AM
Nitin has the basics right. Maya does mean Illusion.

Its a concept similar to Matrix, though not sinister like it.
What we see & experience in life here is termed as Maya, an illusion. The real journey is beyond this world.

Whoever thought of giving the Maya its name was bang on. It is the best name u can have in the business of creating illusion!

IMO we can discuss this in another thread.

We have wonderful and insightful discussion going on here, so lets stick to that.:deal:

anaerobic
06-17-2006, 03:07 PM
Hello

Well, im an Indian.. and I'm an animator here in India...but I guess I have a little different view. Personally, I don't find India a very good country to be employed in if you are an animator.Many reasons to that : first... the pay ain't that good no matter how good you are. Second, here in India, I doubt that there is a market for selling animation. We Indians are so obsessed with Musical Love Stories, and the common attitude towards animation is that most of the people don't even know what animation is... the common (UTTERLY WRONG) word used for it is "CARTOON" and therefore it is only considered for KIDS. That sucks.

I'v been employed here in India, but still I take on more or less projects from abroad. Sorry for being a part of the outsourcing guys... I know it feels bad. I would feel bad if the same happend to India.

But I guess when you are an animator you can't really expect anything from the Indian Entertainment Industry.

So... if Dreamworks feels it can use animators here who can work for lesser wages.. It can. But then I agree that the quality will deteriorate.

And if it wants to hire quality 'Indian' animators, they're already contributing to the animation industry worldwide...

So dreamworks coming to India is only a way to get work done for lesser wages. ;)

Ahmattu
06-17-2006, 07:35 PM
So... if Dreamworks feels it can use animators here who can work for lesser wages.. It can. But then I agree that the quality will deteriorate.


no comment.:wise:

vicky_1
06-18-2006, 05:39 AM
Aha! Ahmattu finds company in anaerobic! Good for you two.

Anyway, back to the topic.
The battle lines r clearer now. We have idealists & realists. I dont have a better word yet to bear with me.
----------------------
Idealist camp has-
Isolationists
believers of Communism
50% of CG USA(assuming)
India haters ( 2 & counting:))
affected ex CG men (no pun)
----------------------
Realists:
Global villagers
believers of capitalism
the other 50% of CG USA (frankly i dont know)
CG Indians
Greedy businessmen
----------------------
Did i miss anybody?

My take: communism is a good concept, but not a working one for human beings.
I am in the realist camp.
note: both camps have unlikely bedfellows in any other issue.

rajamax
06-18-2006, 02:44 PM
Frankly speaking, Nothing has really happened. We 'll wait and see what exactly Dreamworks is up to....

Cheers

LS Knight
06-18-2006, 09:45 PM
Too much to read here but I get the gist of this... I think.



Anyone who hates the idea of a company taking labor out of the country should lobby the government for changes in corporate law or start their own company a swear to never move away and stay loyal to the people that built it (put it in the company by-laws).



I'll admit that those are tall tasks but other than that it is just complaining about the nature of things and the nature and responsibility of a corporation is the relentless pursuite of profit. It is the very core of capitalism. And yes, sometimes it gets out of hand. All integrity lies in the hands of the company board but they can get into real trouble if their social integrity causes them to not produce profit.



There does come a point when experienced workers start getting so highly paid that companies can hardly help themselves but to look for other sources of labor. I know that at Warner Animation some of the older Union people were pulling very good salaries and awesome benefits (I had total medical for years as a spouse). Union rules forced Warner to hire seniority first and pay based on previous pay. They did do contracts but everyone know what the deal was and the variance in pay from one person to another was minor and more based on an increase of what was paid before. Soon, everyone is getting $25/hr or more and benefits and retirement and this and that. The good times were self terminating. A catch 22 if you will. Unfortunate but not terribly surprising.



Some people I know retired just as the Era of Golden-Time (my phrase for when these people were often given overtime and double time hours) ended in the late '90's. They were really lucky. I feel sorry for the poor folks that had been in it long enough to be really committed and reliant on the career and lost it.

Njen
06-19-2006, 03:08 AM
no comment.:wise:

So you posted a comment to say "no comment"?

depleteD
06-19-2006, 03:54 AM
This is the way I see this issue.

The bottom line here is talent. You have to deliver quality. The way I'm going to tackle globalization in my life is jsut keep practising(dunno how to spell) work hard so I get so good that my employeer won't want to give my job away.

Plus if India does take every last job away.... I'll move there it would be a good expirence

:)

I think globalization is a good thing. North America has what? 99% of the worlds wealth? We are 4% of the population and use 30% of the worlds resources. (Something like that). Not that I'm saying I want globalization. I would really really like to continue to live in the current unsustainable Canadian lifestyle. :) Its soooo sweet living here. Now someone gimme a hummer that has half the gas milegae as a bigger hummer!

Im gonna go consume now.


-Andrew

Stahlberg
06-19-2006, 06:06 AM
Plus if India does take every last job away.... I'll move there it would be a good expirence
Dude you rock. That's imho the exact right attitude to have for the new millenium. :)

d_jnaneswar
06-19-2006, 08:30 AM
IMHO,

Maya is an illusion in the sense that it is a misconception. The best example for this given in Vedas is :

"Assuming a rope to be a snake cuz of darkness". It is an analogy to us seeing this world as a collection of seperate objects and events, instead of the oneness (energy) underlying. Simpler terms, Maya is the illusion that everything is seperate and "free" of the other which makes us forget that everything is God's and God created everything as part of a whole.

It is the illusion that our limited perception of oursenses creates inside us. We see things partly (like only certain visible light freq and so on...) and so we cant see the fullness..

Example: We "see" the sun rising in the east, but yet, in reality, its the earth revolving (which is only inferred through thinking and experimenting and calculating... but not through everyday experience). This is the most rudimentary form of Maya. Yet we "imagine" that this is all there is and live our lives accordingly. The goal is to see beyond this through inquiry, experiment and meditation.

Such illusion is the basis for work, family, righteousness and sustainance.. and so it is called Mother. The same illusion is the basis for sin, sorrow, cunningness and other bad qualities.. and so it is said to be the destroyer. The only way to bliss is to transcend both these qualities of Maya and realize that ultimately, everything is one and that everything is working according to a divine plan (Whether you call the force behind it God or not).

Phew.... Now I tried to steer the topic away from some heated discussion.. I have a feeling that this isnt going to work. Although its good to see that the heat is finally subsiding on this thread.

Now, on topic... I would add just one point (well this is kinda off topic too.. sorry..;) )
Whatever the people in one place think of people in other places (like gulf region people thinking low of Indians), people are people where ever they are. Good people are there in every place on this earth and bad people are there every where too. How you look at it is all that matters. In fact, i think each of us is bad sometimes and good sometimes (unless we are somekinda freaking aliens..). "Dont judge others, you will be judged".

Dreamworks! Hey Dreamworks!! where are you! you friggin.. **... Im waiting! Come fast and set up shop.. i need to animate.

dj

spikkel
06-19-2006, 09:05 AM
It is an analogy to us seeing this world as a collection of seperate objects and events, instead of the oneness (energy) underlying. Simpler terms, Maya is the illusion that everything is seperate and "free" of the other which makes us forget that everything is God's and God created everything as part of a whole.

Like bubbles on water.

anakinbrego
06-19-2006, 10:17 AM
First of all the US is still running things, paying all the over seas salaries. People in America are losing their jobs, what do you think will happen when all the jobs in the US go over sea, there will be no jobs in the US. The richer will get richer and the poorer will get poorer!! While the the Rockefellers and politicians get fatter. People in other countries will work for a salary that they can barely live on, and the fat business owners get fatter in the states. Well if that's globalization, rock on! The American people might have to go to other countries to find work, to work for American companies, to move to India to do the same jobs they did in the states, and get paid less than what they got paid, they won't be living the same lifestyle they had in the US. Why don't they just lower the salaries here in the US, oh yeah, unions! That's why they are outsourcing, to pay people salaries that in the states would be at the poerty level. God bless America! :sad:

send2raj
06-19-2006, 10:35 AM
Gud dat Dreamworks is coming to india.....But nothin' has come yet it's only in media.

Stahlberg
06-19-2006, 11:10 AM
they won't be living the same lifestyle they had in the US.
And you know that because... you tried it?
I've tried it. I lived in the US. Now I live in Malaysia. Guess which one I'd pick for quality of lifestyle any day. :D

greekdish
06-19-2006, 12:12 PM
First of all the US is still running things, paying all the over seas salaries. People in America are losing their jobs, what do you think will happen when all the jobs in the US go over sea, there will be no jobs in the US. The richer will get richer and the poorer will get poorer!! While the the Rockefellers and politicians get fatter. People in other countries will work for a salary that they can barely live on, and the fat business owners get fatter in the states. Well if that's globalization, rock on! The American people might have to go to other countries to find work, to work for American companies, to move to India to do the same jobs they did in the states, and get paid less than what they got paid, they won't be living the same lifestyle they had in the US. Why don't they just lower the salaries here in the US, oh yeah, unions! That's why they are outsourcing, to pay people salaries that in the states would be at the poerty level. God bless America! :sad:

Thats utter malarky. People said the same thing during the 70's when steel manufacturing died out in the US. The US survived that pretty well. The US unemployment rate is under 5%, the best its been in many years, including the Clinton years. People need to realize there is no guarantee that any person's job will be around for the rest of their lives. The type of jobs people will do in their lives will change from year to year. All car factories will be robot automated from start to finish in the near future....then what?? People complain about outsourcing to robots?? Come on. Its keep up with the times, and adapt, or die. Period. If there are no animation jobs in your area, but you dont want to move to a hotspot, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Its the nature of the beast....employment. If you cant offer your services to an employer...start your own employment. If you cant do either, change careers. There will always be a need in the US for services.....restaurants, refuse collection, construction, landscaping, painters, electricians, etc. What about importers?? If the world will be a global market, then you need people to bring the rest of the world's products to the US. :shrug:

Again, the bottom line is...people need to stop pointing the finger, and start pointing the thumb. If an American chooses to go to another country to work simply because they want to stay in that field, then whatever. If my restaurant goes under, I wont move because I love this country. I'll find something else. Ill start a moving company for all those people that want to move out of this country!!! :deal:

down2earth
06-19-2006, 10:03 PM
Again, the bottom line is...people need to stop pointing the finger, and start pointing the thumb. If an American chooses to go to another country to work simply because they want to stay in that field, then whatever. If my restaurant goes under, I wont move because I love this country. I'll find something else. Ill start a moving company for all those people that want to move out of this country!!! :deal:

I don't know who you are but i like your positive thinking with a dash of humour which most people lack.. i have stopped making anymore comments coz its to going too far but i peep in once in a while just for a few laughs. ( with due respect to everyone who is getting a job or giving one, both causes are noble )


For all those who are suffering from dampened spirits for whatever reasons, i siggest you watch the WORLD CUP SOCCER.... a true display of sportman spirit ! Its a game after all, sometimes u win, sometimes u lose but never lose your spirit to fight back ! There is no sorrier sight than a man who had lost his hope..

vfxdude2
06-23-2006, 01:24 PM
Ok, been off this thread for a while... got a new job.

I also have some new information: I had the opportunity in the last few weeks to watch a good deal of children's television while visiting my niece.

Not that it should come as a surprise, but there's ALREADY a lot of 3D CG animation being produced in India and Taiwan. Several of the cartoons we watched were 3D CG. Some on the Disney Channel featuring Mickey and friends; lots on the Sprout network.

From the credits, it was clear that most of the editorial and pre-production work was being done in the USA or Canada, but all of the actual 3D work was being done in India or Taiwan.


On a purely visual level... the work was HORRIBLE. Poor animation, rendering, modeling... extremely low-quality work.

Now, I'm not saying that this is all the Indian and Taiwanese firms are capable of producing, but these examples are clearly several steps behind what's being done in the USA. (One must recognize that they were probably working with very limited budgets/schedules, and that the quality level they were trying to achieve probably was quite low due to the audience of children who wouldn't be able to tell the difference).


So, just wanted to throw some more fuel on the fire ;-)


What does this mean? Who knows? Maybe I'm still a couple steps ahead of the Indians and Taiwanese and can keep working for a few more years...


(and by the way, I'm not on a consistent "side" of this issue. I recognize that globalization is inevitable; but, I also want to keep working in the USA and don't particularly want my job outsourced :)

-vfxdude

andy_maxman
06-23-2006, 01:44 PM
So, just wanted to throw some more fuel on the fire ;-)


yea...its fun...

lets keep the fireball rolling..

QuantumBoy
06-24-2006, 03:18 AM
Here's my take on outsourcing and Globalization.

Pretty simple really...2 things. Equilibrium, and "mind your own garden"


Equilibrium:

What was the pre-US English colonies economy primarily before fighting for independence from England? Anyone?

Exporting of tobacco, sugar, spices, and other materials to Europe. We exported cheaper, faster, and higher quality in specific raw materials and goods than anywhere on the Continent.

Wouldn't the founding of this country's economy, it's backbone at the time, be considered really just outsourcing from England and other European countries? Do we American's feel bad that we probably took European farmers, traders, etc, jobs away to help make our economy strong and to be one of the most powerful countries in the world?

I don't think so..

It's all about an eventual balance long term anyway..Yes, there will be outsourcing. Alot. I've been in the games industry for 8 years and most of my friend's at multiple companies are now in charge of outsourcing assets for next generation games. It's going to happen and it's going to get significantly "worse".

I say that in quotes because I see this as an opportunity for a stronger animation/vfx industry. Eventually, over a period of who knows, 5, 10, 15 years, those outsouring artists are going to ask for higher wages..as high as U.S. wages and then there will be an equal playing field everywhere..and I mean everywhere unless we somehow start outsourcing to somewhere like Mars. :)


--


Mind your own garden

So? What do you do about this "threat" to your livelihood? Do you wail on message boards saying all is lost? Or do you buck up? Look at yourself and really, REALLY, see what you are and what you can do and use all of this extra energy and time (and yes, I know, I'm at fault to for not doing this now myself either)?

Put the effort in to be the best..and I mean, the very best you can be as an artist. Pull those weeds, cultivate those flowers...and you know what? If you're good enough (and really IMO, anyone with enough time , energy and perspiration can be good enough to get the job) it will take care of itself.

You will eventually rise to the top percentage of the field and companies WILL notice and want your services and skill and will pay for it.

And minding your own garden also includes flexibility. Find the fallow ground. Go where the jobs are. Be where the action is. It's a very competitive world out there gentleman and ladies..remember that. If that means that you might have to literally "go the distance" than so be it, do it. If you're not willing to make the sacrificies then remember that's your choice.

My .02 (now going back to work) :)

jLA

CupOWonton
06-24-2006, 05:15 AM
Ballances out faster when one side creates enough technology to reproduce itself and start taking care of the rest of the world. Though its all up to who creates that technology.
Do you want highly intelligent robots to be controlled by people who want to kill you, or do you want highly intelligent robots controlled by people who just want to make everyone happy wile convincing them to try and leave their beliefs asside when interacting with society. None of which has to do with CG, but very much with where the money goes.

Stahlberg
06-24-2006, 06:54 AM
JohnnyLA I could quote your whole post for 'total agreement' but that takes up too much space.
:D :D

d_jnaneswar
06-24-2006, 07:06 AM
Do you want highly intelligent robots to be controlled by people who want to kill you, or do you want highly intelligent robots controlled by people who just want to make everyone happy wile convincing them to try and leave their beliefs asside when interacting with society. None of which has to do with CG, but very much with where the money goes.

If this is the option, then I would like to see money flowing into India and every one will be safer.. atleast in the context of the past few years of wars around the world. India is the worlds biggest democracy and by far, a peaceful big country in the global scene.

But I really dont think this is an option.. Since there are people of both kinds in all countries.. ALL COUNTRIES. May Every Good person On this God's Green Earth benifit and May the HUMAN RACE improve!!

dj

albedo4800hp
06-24-2006, 11:20 AM
I actually did not want to write anything to this thread anymore but sorry this I can just not leave uncomment

If this is the option, then I would like to see money flowing into India and every one will be safer.. atleast in the context of the past few years of wars around the world. India is the worlds biggest democracy and by far, a peaceful big country in the global scene.


*ROTFLMAO* BOLLOGS! I have just two words for you:

Pakistan

and

Kashmir

darkjedi1929
06-24-2006, 12:26 PM
I actually did not want to write anything to this thread anymore but sorry this I can just not leave uncomment



*ROTFLMAO* BOLLOGS! I have just two words for you:

Pakistan

and

Kashmir

This is a CG forum, kindly do not get political here.

And anyway, no insult to any any Pakistanis here, BUT, which country in the world doesn't have problems with terrorists "ALLEGEDLY" ;) coming out of Pakistan? Name one....

STEVE33304
06-24-2006, 12:39 PM
Well good luck if they want to go this route.





I think they will have a few problems, we have, and I think the issues that arise are nearly always impossible to foresee.





So unless they are prepared to spend a lot of time flying back and forward, they should not be so cavalier in the response to moving some of the production there.





Specifically India, is not a panacea for all. You have to understand that, you have to know what they are good at and what they "say" they can do.





The latter is often where you come a cropper.





Personally I do feel that they shouldn’t make the move, as I believe there are enough artists, especially young people who could do well for them, if only they were given the chance.



Ok so you have to invest time and money helping them, but isn’t that the point of being in business, that if you can help out, you do.



We at Letterbox, have instigated, a program, of displaying individuals renders, giving them a forum to place their artwork. If they are a modeller, they can models characters, and we’ll place it up on the site, for free download, and the best ones we’ll put on our content cd.



All of is being implemented right now for our new web site. And most importantly of all we give everyone’s email address that submits.



We feel that if it helps someone, then is the least we can do.



If they’re moving just because it’s a money thing, that that is the saddest piece of news for a long time, but I suppose that’s what happens.



Not at Letterbox. Period.

d_jnaneswar
06-24-2006, 04:53 PM
Exactly ;)

Wars in Kashmir all ended on a peaceful note and a hopeful peace.. hehe...

Still, by far the most peaceful country, India... ;)


Hey... guys... im just kidding.. no offence... keep those water baloons out of CG! by the way..
what does "*ROTFLMAO* BOLLOGS!" mean?

dj

jdsb
06-24-2006, 06:11 PM
albedo4800hp: Do you know the india is the only country that won independence based on non-voilence.You have no idea how stupid and misinformed you sounded with that totally immature and inconsiderate comment.Dude, go visit delhi ,go visit india some day and the indians will teach you what LOVE and VALUES are all about...
as someone said , dilli dil walon ki...never mind you wont understand :)

anakinbrego
06-24-2006, 09:53 PM
And you know that because... you tried it?
I've tried it. I lived in the US. Now I live in Malaysia. Guess which one I'd pick for quality of lifestyle any day. :D
If you are going to quote a sentence of mine quote the whole sentence, not the last half to so you can take it out of context!